The Forgotten World War with Derek Baxter

As Mercy Otis Warren in her "Rise, Progress, and Termination of the American Revolution" reminds us, not all of the battlefields of the American Revolution were in America. Although the conflict began in Massachusetts, it soon spread across the globe, with armies and navies fighting in North America, the Caribbean, Europe, India, Africa, and Central America. The struggle for American independence became part of a worldwide contest among the great powers, one whose outcome would reshape the modern world.

In the next episode of the Revolution 250 Podcast, Executive Director Jonathan Lane welcomes historian and author Derek Baxter to discuss his acclaimed book, The Forgotten World War:  Exploring the Secret History of the American Revolution from Spain to India and Back Again.  Together, they explore how the American Revolution needs to be seen and understood as a world war, and why viewing the Revolution through a global lens reveals a conflict that extended far beyond Lexington, Concord, and Yorktown.

Buy the Book! https://a.co/d/0hAHhvQh

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:01.969 --> 00:00:02.770
 Hello, everyone,
 
 00:00:02.850 --> 00:00:04.511
 and welcome to the Revolution to fifty
 
 00:00:04.551 --> 00:00:05.112
 podcast.
 
 00:00:05.272 --> 00:00:06.213
 I'm Jonathan Lane.
 
 00:00:06.232 --> 00:00:08.955
 I'm executive director of Revolution to
 
 00:00:08.996 --> 00:00:09.396
 fifty.
 
 00:00:09.435 --> 00:00:13.259
 We are a consortium of more than seventy
 
 00:00:13.300 --> 00:00:14.740
 five organizations here in the
 
 00:00:14.781 --> 00:00:16.443
 Commonwealth of Massachusetts that have
 
 00:00:16.463 --> 00:00:18.605
 been working over the last decade to tell.
 
 00:00:19.289 --> 00:00:22.230
 the history of the American Revolution.
 
 00:00:22.329 --> 00:00:25.129
 And our guest today is Derek Baxter,
 
 00:00:25.170 --> 00:00:28.271
 who has written a fabulous book called The
 
 00:00:28.291 --> 00:00:29.650
 Forgotten World War,
 
 00:00:30.512 --> 00:00:34.393
 which is essentially an explanation and an
 
 00:00:34.453 --> 00:00:37.052
 investigation into how the American
 
 00:00:37.112 --> 00:00:39.954
 Revolution played out across the globe.
 
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 So, Derek,
 
 00:00:40.954 --> 00:00:43.015
 welcome to the Revolution to the podcast.
 
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 Well, thanks so much for having me.
 
 00:00:45.453 --> 00:00:47.475
 So I am going to start with a
 
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 local story, which I find fascinating.
 
 00:00:50.457 --> 00:00:55.420
 So you started this exploration with the
 
 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:57.862
 reading of Mercy Otis Warren's Rise,
 
 00:00:57.902 --> 00:00:58.603
 Progress,
 
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 and Termination of the American
 
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 Revolution.
 
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 And Mercy Otis has definitely been a
 
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 little bit of a hot topic around here.
 
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 So how did you find the volumes and
 
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 what were your takeaways from her work?
 
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 Sure, yeah.
 
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 I learned about her.
 
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 So I was,
 
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 I wrote a first book on Jefferson,
 
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 following Jefferson's travels through
 
 00:01:18.703 --> 00:01:18.963
 Europe.
 
 00:01:18.983 --> 00:01:20.444
 So everything for me was Jefferson,
 
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 Jefferson, Jefferson.
 
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 And I went to an exhibit,
 
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 an event they had at the Library of
 
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 Congress for displaying some of the books
 
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 from Jefferson's collection that he had
 
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 sold to the Library of Congress.
 
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 One of them being Mercy Otis Warren's
 
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 history book,
 
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 which is just fascinating because later in
 
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 the nineteenth century,
 
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 there was a fire and it burned a
 
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 lot of the collections
 
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 of the books in the library and hers
 
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 survived,
 
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 but you can still see the scorch marks
 
 00:01:44.981 --> 00:01:45.182
 on it.
 
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 So just this fantastic story.
 
 00:01:47.102 --> 00:01:50.465
 Jefferson was a big admirer of Warren.
 
 00:01:50.504 --> 00:01:53.147
 He said she deserves high station in the
 
 00:01:53.186 --> 00:01:53.887
 ranks of genius.
 
 00:01:53.906 --> 00:01:56.808
 So I became very interested in her.
 
 00:01:56.868 --> 00:01:59.251
 I hadn't heard much about her and checked
 
 00:01:59.311 --> 00:02:00.492
 out her book, read her book.
 
 00:02:01.554 --> 00:02:04.236
 and was just surprised about how she dealt
 
 00:02:04.256 --> 00:02:06.457
 with the Revolutionary War as a global
 
 00:02:06.498 --> 00:02:06.698
 war.
 
 00:02:06.918 --> 00:02:07.739
 So she lived through it.
 
 00:02:07.778 --> 00:02:08.460
 She was right there.
 
 00:02:08.500 --> 00:02:10.521
 Obviously, you all know in Massachusetts,
 
 00:02:10.542 --> 00:02:12.242
 her own role, her husband's role.
 
 00:02:13.044 --> 00:02:14.245
 She was an eyewitness,
 
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 hosted the Washingtons,
 
 00:02:17.527 --> 00:02:19.308
 visited Cambridge with Martha Washington.
 
 00:02:19.348 --> 00:02:20.789
 So she really had this perspective that
 
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 few people had.
 
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 She's a great historian.
 
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 And she wrote all about the different
 
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 theaters of the war,
 
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 which really surprised me, you know,
 
 00:02:28.679 --> 00:02:30.061
 because I focus so much on the Thirteen
 
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 Colonies.
 
 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:31.962
 I had no idea that there was there
 
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 were battles in the Caribbean and the
 
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 Mediterranean and even India.
 
 00:02:35.747 --> 00:02:37.028
 So that's kind of what set me off
 
 00:02:37.049 --> 00:02:38.371
 on this trail of trying to find out
 
 00:02:38.450 --> 00:02:40.573
 more about the Revolutionary War as a
 
 00:02:40.652 --> 00:02:41.133
 world war.
 
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 Don't you think, I mean,
 
 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:46.542
 I often wonder at the surprise,
 
 00:02:46.801 --> 00:02:48.843
 and I am surprised as well in reading
 
 00:02:48.883 --> 00:02:49.683
 your book as well,
 
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 how this played out in places like India
 
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 and even in Spain itself.
 
 00:02:57.069 --> 00:02:59.611
 But with Britain being a global empire,
 
 00:02:59.711 --> 00:03:01.953
 I guess we shouldn't have been terribly
 
 00:03:01.992 --> 00:03:03.794
 surprised that people saw this as an
 
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 opportunity to get their own back from the
 
 00:03:08.478 --> 00:03:09.338
 British Empire.
 
 00:03:10.256 --> 00:03:10.816
 Well, that's right.
 
 00:03:10.876 --> 00:03:12.456
 And the Seven Years War also was a
 
 00:03:12.477 --> 00:03:15.217
 world war and Britain was triumphant and
 
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 that left a lot of hard feelings across
 
 00:03:17.979 --> 00:03:22.000
 Europe and France and Spain still had just
 
 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:26.001
 immense grudges and scores they wanted to
 
 00:03:26.061 --> 00:03:26.822
 settle with Britain.
 
 00:03:26.882 --> 00:03:29.201
 So yeah, I guess in retrospect,
 
 00:03:29.241 --> 00:03:31.143
 it's not that surprising that these other
 
 00:03:31.203 --> 00:03:33.003
 superpowers in Europe would see this as a
 
 00:03:33.024 --> 00:03:35.623
 golden opportunity to get back at Britain,
 
 00:03:35.645 --> 00:03:36.865
 which is exactly what happened.
 
 00:03:38.061 --> 00:03:40.223
 so one of the things that i particularly
 
 00:03:40.263 --> 00:03:43.104
 love about this book is how much you
 
 00:03:43.725 --> 00:03:46.707
 involve your family in this exploration
 
 00:03:47.087 --> 00:03:48.588
 and as a father of two boys i
 
 00:03:48.628 --> 00:03:51.070
 can't help remark and i know professor
 
 00:03:51.110 --> 00:03:55.254
 allison is the same way that uh engaging
 
 00:03:55.314 --> 00:03:58.016
 with your family with your passion i think
 
 00:03:58.056 --> 00:03:59.377
 must be terribly rewarding
 
 00:04:00.139 --> 00:04:00.479
 Yeah,
 
 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:02.662
 so that was my premise of the book,
 
 00:04:02.741 --> 00:04:04.143
 that I wanted to go out to these
 
 00:04:04.203 --> 00:04:07.064
 sites in person and see them with my
 
 00:04:07.145 --> 00:04:08.725
 own eyes and really understand how it was
 
 00:04:08.746 --> 00:04:10.347
 a world war by going to these places
 
 00:04:10.407 --> 00:04:12.968
 in the Caribbean and Spain and India and
 
 00:04:12.989 --> 00:04:15.251
 all the rest and talking to people,
 
 00:04:15.711 --> 00:04:18.793
 ideally to historians or experts or
 
 00:04:18.833 --> 00:04:21.095
 reenactors I could find along the way.
 
 00:04:21.235 --> 00:04:23.377
 And I got to take my family with
 
 00:04:23.437 --> 00:04:23.637
 me.
 
 00:04:24.137 --> 00:04:25.757
 I did that on the Jefferson book as
 
 00:04:25.798 --> 00:04:26.137
 well.
 
 00:04:26.298 --> 00:04:28.420
 And it's just such a rich experience,
 
 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:28.720
 I think.
 
 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:31.822
 Not everyone is as obsessed with history
 
 00:04:31.862 --> 00:04:33.124
 as I am, but I think everybody,
 
 00:04:33.504 --> 00:04:35.725
 my family all took all sorts of things
 
 00:04:35.805 --> 00:04:36.766
 out of these trips too.
 
 00:04:37.387 --> 00:04:39.249
 And they saw things differently than me
 
 00:04:39.288 --> 00:04:39.930
 sometimes.
 
 00:04:39.990 --> 00:04:42.072
 So yeah, it was a great experience,
 
 00:04:42.091 --> 00:04:43.572
 a great bonding experience for our family,
 
 00:04:43.612 --> 00:04:44.673
 for sure.
 
 00:04:44.713 --> 00:04:46.714
 So you have this episode early on in
 
 00:04:46.735 --> 00:04:50.699
 the book where you find yourself in Spain.
 
 00:04:51.930 --> 00:04:55.473
 stirring a giant pot of paella while you
 
 00:04:55.932 --> 00:05:00.196
 talk to descendants of Bernardo Galvez
 
 00:05:00.415 --> 00:05:00.935
 and, of course,
 
 00:05:00.975 --> 00:05:03.357
 his role in the American Revolution.
 
 00:05:03.416 --> 00:05:05.218
 So why don't you give the audience a
 
 00:05:05.257 --> 00:05:09.459
 flavor of that experience as you began the
 
 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:10.600
 research for the book?
 
 00:05:11.180 --> 00:05:12.382
 Sure, sure.
 
 00:05:12.601 --> 00:05:13.882
 That's how the book kicks off.
 
 00:05:13.922 --> 00:05:17.103
 So we went to Andalusia in Spain,
 
 00:05:17.324 --> 00:05:19.064
 and there's this tiny village called
 
 00:05:19.103 --> 00:05:22.505
 Machara Villaya, you know,
 
 00:05:22.545 --> 00:05:23.846
 just a little place.
 
 00:05:23.925 --> 00:05:26.326
 And yet they host this huge pageant for
 
 00:05:26.367 --> 00:05:27.348
 the Fourth of July every year.
 
 00:05:27.367 --> 00:05:29.567
 So just kind of crazy that here you
 
 00:05:29.627 --> 00:05:30.928
 are in the hills of Spain,
 
 00:05:31.488 --> 00:05:32.889
 and it's a Fourth of July party,
 
 00:05:32.910 --> 00:05:33.350
 and they've got fun.
 
 00:05:33.389 --> 00:05:35.653
 fireworks and they're pla anthem and you
 
 00:05:35.673 --> 00:05:37.776
 can get yo It's just like being back
 
 00:05:38.516 --> 00:05:43.603
 all because bernardo de g his family.
 
 00:05:43.642 --> 00:05:47.947
 So the Galva family started as shepher up
 
 00:05:47.968 --> 00:05:48.689
 through the ranks.
 
 00:05:49.310 --> 00:05:49.430
 Um
 
 00:05:50.071 --> 00:05:51.812
 Bernardo's uncle became this very
 
 00:05:51.851 --> 00:05:53.952
 prominent minister in the court,
 
 00:05:54.033 --> 00:05:55.673
 and they played key roles in the
 
 00:05:55.694 --> 00:05:56.375
 Revolutionary War.
 
 00:05:56.415 --> 00:05:59.656
 So Bernardo was the governor of Louisiana,
 
 00:05:59.697 --> 00:06:00.976
 which was Spanish at the time,
 
 00:06:01.137 --> 00:06:02.298
 and he was also a general in his
 
 00:06:02.358 --> 00:06:02.737
 own right.
 
 00:06:02.798 --> 00:06:04.199
 And he attacked the British,
 
 00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:05.800
 had successful battles,
 
 00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:07.781
 many victories against them along the Gulf
 
 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:08.040
 Coast.
 
 00:06:08.081 --> 00:06:10.083
 So he became this legendary figure.
 
 00:06:11.124 --> 00:06:12.605
 And they're just so taken with him that
 
 00:06:12.644 --> 00:06:15.447
 they reenact the Battle of Pensacola,
 
 00:06:15.468 --> 00:06:17.490
 Florida every year in the hills of
 
 00:06:17.550 --> 00:06:18.151
 Andalusia.
 
 00:06:18.252 --> 00:06:18.791
 And so, yes,
 
 00:06:19.192 --> 00:06:20.434
 I got to meet Jose Galvez,
 
 00:06:20.454 --> 00:06:22.216
 who's a member of the family who plays
 
 00:06:22.276 --> 00:06:23.978
 Bernardo and, you know,
 
 00:06:24.017 --> 00:06:25.620
 couldn't be a nicer guy and whatever.
 
 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:27.161
 Got to chat with him a lot and
 
 00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:28.560
 a lot of the other cast members.
 
 00:06:28.581 --> 00:06:31.081
 So just a really special moment for us
 
 00:06:31.122 --> 00:06:32.002
 because this is, again,
 
 00:06:32.043 --> 00:06:33.863
 this is a historical episode that we
 
 00:06:33.903 --> 00:06:36.204
 really don't think about much in the U.S.
 
 00:06:36.305 --> 00:06:36.644
 at all.
 
 00:06:36.884 --> 00:06:39.045
 Or at least not as much as we
 
 00:06:39.065 --> 00:06:40.927
 should about the role that the Spanish
 
 00:06:40.966 --> 00:06:42.387
 played in the Gulf Coast.
 
 00:06:43.108 --> 00:06:44.649
 But there is a place that definitely keeps
 
 00:06:44.668 --> 00:06:45.389
 that memory alive.
 
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 And it couldn't have been a more fun
 
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 experience just to go out there and kind
 
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 of hear it all and see it all
 
 00:06:49.331 --> 00:06:49.771
 firsthand.
 
 00:06:50.740 --> 00:06:52.579
 You know, it's really interesting because,
 
 00:06:52.620 --> 00:06:53.480
 of course,
 
 00:06:53.500 --> 00:06:55.261
 I work with a number of hereditary
 
 00:06:55.300 --> 00:06:56.860
 societies here in America,
 
 00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:59.021
 which all have French chapters.
 
 00:06:59.122 --> 00:07:02.161
 I don't know of anybody from Spain who's
 
 00:07:02.221 --> 00:07:04.983
 part of these organizations and societies
 
 00:07:05.023 --> 00:07:08.043
 and would seem like descendants of Galvez
 
 00:07:08.062 --> 00:07:10.744
 should definitely be part of these
 
 00:07:10.783 --> 00:07:13.624
 heritage organizations because it reminds
 
 00:07:13.723 --> 00:07:17.524
 us just how widespread the aid America got
 
 00:07:18.151 --> 00:07:20.194
 during the American Revolution.
 
 00:07:20.254 --> 00:07:22.836
 Of course, the famous one is France.
 
 00:07:22.857 --> 00:07:24.939
 So tell us about some of your explorations
 
 00:07:24.978 --> 00:07:27.762
 through France and the Channel Islands
 
 00:07:29.704 --> 00:07:30.826
 during your book tour.
 
 00:07:31.846 --> 00:07:32.185
 Sure.
 
 00:07:32.286 --> 00:07:33.507
 So I went to France.
 
 00:07:34.447 --> 00:07:36.387
 There were there were direct battles in
 
 00:07:36.468 --> 00:07:36.968
 France.
 
 00:07:37.788 --> 00:07:39.528
 So I only had a couple.
 
 00:07:39.649 --> 00:07:40.990
 I had a couple of trips there, though,
 
 00:07:41.029 --> 00:07:43.211
 to explore different different facets.
 
 00:07:43.250 --> 00:07:44.752
 I went to I really was trying to
 
 00:07:45.151 --> 00:07:46.812
 learn more about the Comte de Virgin,
 
 00:07:46.932 --> 00:07:49.274
 the French foreign minister who was the
 
 00:07:49.533 --> 00:07:51.634
 one in the French government who was.
 
 00:07:52.415 --> 00:07:53.735
 a hawk on the war from the beginning.
 
 00:07:53.776 --> 00:07:54.975
 He wanted to join the cause.
 
 00:07:55.016 --> 00:07:56.216
 As soon as he got the Declaration of
 
 00:07:56.257 --> 00:07:56.797
 Independence,
 
 00:07:57.377 --> 00:07:59.639
 he went to the cabinet meeting and said,
 
 00:07:59.658 --> 00:08:00.478
 let's go and invade England.
 
 00:08:00.499 --> 00:08:01.980
 I mean, that's all he needed to hear.
 
 00:08:02.180 --> 00:08:03.800
 And it took a while.
 
 00:08:03.821 --> 00:08:05.161
 It took a couple more years for France
 
 00:08:05.201 --> 00:08:06.002
 to get into the war.
 
 00:08:06.161 --> 00:08:07.783
 But but he was definitely pushing it.
 
 00:08:07.882 --> 00:08:10.163
 And he provided so much support to the
 
 00:08:10.184 --> 00:08:10.625
 Americans.
 
 00:08:10.685 --> 00:08:13.326
 So I was on Virgin's Trail and both
 
 00:08:13.365 --> 00:08:14.786
 Versailles and Burgundy,
 
 00:08:14.807 --> 00:08:15.766
 where he came from.
 
 00:08:16.447 --> 00:08:18.488
 And I also went to a place
 
 00:08:20.089 --> 00:08:22.591
 Really interesting if any of the listeners
 
 00:08:22.692 --> 00:08:25.173
 ever find themselves in France in the
 
 00:08:25.213 --> 00:08:26.894
 summer, in Normandy specifically,
 
 00:08:26.935 --> 00:08:30.156
 there's this place called Vosceux that was
 
 00:08:30.197 --> 00:08:33.359
 where the French army under Rochambeau and
 
 00:08:33.379 --> 00:08:35.801
 de Broglie trained and they were testing
 
 00:08:35.841 --> 00:08:38.042
 out different forms of battle.
 
 00:08:39.423 --> 00:08:40.602
 this is before they, you know,
 
 00:08:40.643 --> 00:08:42.443
 the special expedition shipped off well
 
 00:08:42.484 --> 00:08:43.224
 before, but they were,
 
 00:08:43.464 --> 00:08:45.044
 they were already practicing in effect.
 
 00:08:45.725 --> 00:08:46.325
 And there's a,
 
 00:08:46.365 --> 00:08:47.524
 there's a place kind of like the place
 
 00:08:47.544 --> 00:08:48.945
 in Spain that has a big pageant and
 
 00:08:49.125 --> 00:08:50.525
 reenacts a lot of this.
 
 00:08:50.546 --> 00:08:51.905
 It's, uh, so that's a,
 
 00:08:51.946 --> 00:08:52.765
 that's a fun place.
 
 00:08:52.806 --> 00:08:54.886
 That's only maybe ten miles or so from
 
 00:08:54.927 --> 00:08:56.427
 Juneau Beach and the D-Day beaches.
 
 00:08:56.466 --> 00:08:57.086
 So I would definitely,
 
 00:08:57.106 --> 00:08:58.148
 it's a little off the beaten track,
 
 00:08:58.187 --> 00:08:59.727
 but it's not too far from where a
 
 00:08:59.748 --> 00:09:00.707
 lot of people go anyway.
 
 00:09:00.748 --> 00:09:01.928
 So I highly recommend that.
 
 00:09:02.349 --> 00:09:04.928
 And I did get to, um, the English,
 
 00:09:05.109 --> 00:09:07.009
 the Channel Islands, as you mentioned, is,
 
 00:09:07.230 --> 00:09:07.389
 um,
 
 00:09:07.870 --> 00:09:09.250
 particularly the island of Jersey.
 
 00:09:09.350 --> 00:09:12.412
 So the French and the Spanish tried to
 
 00:09:12.471 --> 00:09:15.813
 mount this huge invasion of Britain in the
 
 00:09:15.854 --> 00:09:17.433
 summer of seventeen seventy nine,
 
 00:09:17.453 --> 00:09:19.855
 which failed for for a couple of reasons.
 
 00:09:19.894 --> 00:09:20.676
 It failed because
 
 00:09:22.081 --> 00:09:23.163
 of sickness on board,
 
 00:09:23.182 --> 00:09:26.105
 there's dysentery and cholera,
 
 00:09:26.144 --> 00:09:27.664
 but also because the French and Spanish
 
 00:09:28.105 --> 00:09:29.886
 naval commanders had a hard time
 
 00:09:29.927 --> 00:09:32.749
 cooperating and speaking the same language
 
 00:09:32.769 --> 00:09:33.908
 and speaking the same naval language,
 
 00:09:33.928 --> 00:09:35.009
 because they even had different signal
 
 00:09:35.029 --> 00:09:35.289
 flags.
 
 00:09:35.330 --> 00:09:38.211
 So the armada didn't work, but they did,
 
 00:09:39.013 --> 00:09:41.313
 a different group of Frenchmen attacked
 
 00:09:41.333 --> 00:09:42.134
 the island of Jersey.
 
 00:09:43.115 --> 00:09:44.817
 That's also not very far from France.
 
 00:09:44.876 --> 00:09:46.998
 So you can take a ferry out there
 
 00:09:47.018 --> 00:09:48.519
 and there's a castle,
 
 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:50.902
 Elizabeth Castle that you can visit and
 
 00:09:51.282 --> 00:09:52.222
 some reenactors there.
 
 00:09:52.263 --> 00:09:53.864
 So I just thought it was so fun
 
 00:09:53.903 --> 00:09:56.186
 to connect the dots that all these very
 
 00:09:56.245 --> 00:09:58.288
 scattered places around the world still
 
 00:09:58.307 --> 00:10:00.730
 have a memory of this Revolutionary War as
 
 00:10:00.769 --> 00:10:01.610
 a global war.
 
 00:10:01.730 --> 00:10:02.812
 And so I tried to go to as
 
 00:10:02.871 --> 00:10:03.812
 many of those as I could.
 
 00:10:04.986 --> 00:10:08.211
 I find that difficulty in communication
 
 00:10:08.272 --> 00:10:10.615
 and working together very present
 
 00:10:10.654 --> 00:10:13.558
 considering the result of the Battle of
 
 00:10:13.578 --> 00:10:15.380
 Trafalgar, for instance,
 
 00:10:15.822 --> 00:10:17.624
 where they suffered many of the same
 
 00:10:17.663 --> 00:10:18.004
 issues.
 
 00:10:18.792 --> 00:10:19.152
 Yeah,
 
 00:10:19.172 --> 00:10:20.633
 I guess they didn't completely learn their
 
 00:10:20.673 --> 00:10:21.153
 lessons.
 
 00:10:21.232 --> 00:10:24.595
 It was that whole attempted invasion wound
 
 00:10:24.674 --> 00:10:25.676
 up being a fiasco.
 
 00:10:26.475 --> 00:10:28.116
 But it was an interesting strategy.
 
 00:10:28.157 --> 00:10:30.097
 And it was really the Spanish who were
 
 00:10:30.118 --> 00:10:31.619
 pushing this in seventeen seventy nine.
 
 00:10:31.678 --> 00:10:33.419
 They thought that they would just it would
 
 00:10:33.500 --> 00:10:35.321
 scare England and they were on the right
 
 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:35.681
 track.
 
 00:10:36.400 --> 00:10:38.361
 landing thirty one thousand troops in the
 
 00:10:38.422 --> 00:10:39.883
 south of england and marching up towards
 
 00:10:39.942 --> 00:10:43.264
 london um would have caused just a panic
 
 00:10:43.283 --> 00:10:45.465
 throughout england uh so the idea was to
 
 00:10:45.684 --> 00:10:48.285
 have the stock market crash and england
 
 00:10:48.346 --> 00:10:49.626
 would just be so worried they would just
 
 00:10:49.667 --> 00:10:51.106
 sue for peace right away and it could
 
 00:10:51.126 --> 00:10:53.388
 just the allies could win just with a
 
 00:10:53.447 --> 00:10:55.369
 quick stroke and and as i said it
 
 00:10:55.408 --> 00:10:56.929
 didn't work out that way but it did
 
 00:10:56.970 --> 00:10:59.191
 have a different effect on the war that
 
 00:10:59.390 --> 00:11:01.091
 england was so spooked by this that they
 
 00:11:01.111 --> 00:11:02.552
 already had a home fleet of course in
 
 00:11:02.572 --> 00:11:03.793
 the in the channel but they
 
 00:11:04.133 --> 00:11:05.994
 They greatly increased it after that.
 
 00:11:06.053 --> 00:11:07.054
 So ships of the line,
 
 00:11:07.095 --> 00:11:09.996
 those immense warships with fifty cannon
 
 00:11:10.017 --> 00:11:10.376
 and more,
 
 00:11:11.677 --> 00:11:13.298
 they kept a bunch of those ships,
 
 00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:15.159
 more than they probably needed in the
 
 00:11:15.220 --> 00:11:16.520
 English Channel for the rest of the war,
 
 00:11:16.541 --> 00:11:18.142
 because there never was another full-scale
 
 00:11:18.182 --> 00:11:18.842
 invasion attempt.
 
 00:11:18.883 --> 00:11:19.923
 So then when we get to the Battle
 
 00:11:19.942 --> 00:11:21.443
 of Chesapeake in seventeen eighty-one,
 
 00:11:22.524 --> 00:11:23.785
 the British have so many of their ships
 
 00:11:23.846 --> 00:11:25.866
 of the line parked back home that they
 
 00:11:26.226 --> 00:11:27.788
 wouldn't have them there or in different
 
 00:11:27.807 --> 00:11:28.469
 theaters of the war.
 
 00:11:29.183 --> 00:11:31.044
 yeah and of course you know we should
 
 00:11:31.085 --> 00:11:33.466
 talk for a moment about gibraltar because
 
 00:11:33.485 --> 00:11:38.428
 um that was spain's real uh goal for
 
 00:11:38.448 --> 00:11:42.071
 uh for this conflict in hopes to and
 
 00:11:42.390 --> 00:11:44.572
 you know they they're continuing their
 
 00:11:44.611 --> 00:11:49.533
 goal to uh regain gibraltar um but it's
 
 00:11:49.594 --> 00:11:52.655
 interesting because uh the use of the
 
 00:11:53.416 --> 00:11:55.116
 mercenary we'll call them mercenaries
 
 00:11:55.136 --> 00:11:56.597
 they're hired soldiers let's say
 
 00:11:57.671 --> 00:12:00.293
 from the princes of the Germanic states
 
 00:12:00.754 --> 00:12:03.798
 really allowed Britain to put some of
 
 00:12:03.817 --> 00:12:06.501
 their best troops in Gibraltar sort of on
 
 00:12:06.581 --> 00:12:08.104
 a semi-permanent basis,
 
 00:12:08.144 --> 00:12:10.687
 which really worked against Spain's
 
 00:12:10.726 --> 00:12:11.168
 interests.
 
 00:12:11.982 --> 00:12:12.322
 Yeah.
 
 00:12:12.643 --> 00:12:13.183
 Yeah.
 
 00:12:13.303 --> 00:12:13.744
 As you said,
 
 00:12:13.823 --> 00:12:15.323
 Spain was they were obsessed with
 
 00:12:15.344 --> 00:12:17.664
 Gibraltar and that was their recovering
 
 00:12:17.705 --> 00:12:19.125
 territory like that was their main goal.
 
 00:12:19.166 --> 00:12:20.166
 It wasn't France's goal.
 
 00:12:20.466 --> 00:12:21.927
 France just wanted to right the balance of
 
 00:12:21.986 --> 00:12:25.668
 power in Europe and wasn't really looking
 
 00:12:25.707 --> 00:12:26.308
 for conquest.
 
 00:12:26.328 --> 00:12:27.808
 But Spain very much wanted to get all
 
 00:12:27.828 --> 00:12:29.669
 the Gibraltar and other places that.
 
 00:12:30.490 --> 00:12:32.793
 England had taken from them in prior wars.
 
 00:12:32.832 --> 00:12:34.916
 They wanted it back and they even had
 
 00:12:35.296 --> 00:12:38.278
 talks with Britain before they entered the
 
 00:12:38.318 --> 00:12:40.621
 war because they were very interested.
 
 00:12:40.682 --> 00:12:41.903
 If they could just get Gibraltar,
 
 00:12:41.923 --> 00:12:43.885
 they had hinted they would just walk away
 
 00:12:43.905 --> 00:12:44.206
 from this.
 
 00:12:44.225 --> 00:12:46.788
 They would not join in and King George
 
 00:12:46.828 --> 00:12:47.809
 III was stubborn and
 
 00:12:48.190 --> 00:12:49.791
 He rejected this offer,
 
 00:12:49.951 --> 00:12:51.692
 and Washington later heard about it and
 
 00:12:51.731 --> 00:12:53.533
 said that the decision was tinctured with
 
 00:12:53.634 --> 00:12:54.254
 insanity.
 
 00:12:54.573 --> 00:12:56.695
 He couldn't believe that George III would
 
 00:12:56.715 --> 00:12:58.275
 basically trade the United States for
 
 00:12:58.316 --> 00:12:59.697
 Gibraltar, which they still have,
 
 00:12:59.756 --> 00:13:00.118
 obviously.
 
 00:13:01.317 --> 00:13:01.597
 But yes,
 
 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:03.659
 they wanted Gibraltar so badly because of
 
 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:06.341
 its strategic position commanding the
 
 00:13:06.380 --> 00:13:06.902
 Mediterranean.
 
 00:13:06.942 --> 00:13:09.243
 But if anyone's ever been to Gibraltar,
 
 00:13:09.263 --> 00:13:10.183
 you see the Rock.
 
 00:13:10.303 --> 00:13:12.024
 It's almost impossible to take its
 
 00:13:15.687 --> 00:13:20.809
 It's really worth a visit another place
 
 00:13:20.830 --> 00:13:24.471
 that really of this war because they did
 
 00:13:26.052 --> 00:13:28.533
 what they call the gr which worked their
 
 00:13:28.553 --> 00:13:32.155
 way u and it was designed so ca
 
 00:13:32.576 --> 00:13:33.716
 down on the spanish ship
 
 00:13:36.957 --> 00:13:37.778
 And so, yes,
 
 00:13:38.058 --> 00:13:40.341
 the Spanish and French never did take
 
 00:13:40.581 --> 00:13:41.902
 Gibraltar, but again,
 
 00:13:42.042 --> 00:13:43.023
 it diverted resources.
 
 00:13:43.102 --> 00:13:43.563
 As you said,
 
 00:13:43.624 --> 00:13:44.784
 Britain was sending some of its best
 
 00:13:44.825 --> 00:13:45.524
 troops there.
 
 00:13:46.566 --> 00:13:49.408
 Admiral Rodney went there on a relief
 
 00:13:49.467 --> 00:13:49.828
 expedition.
 
 00:13:49.849 --> 00:13:51.129
 There were other relief expeditions.
 
 00:13:51.149 --> 00:13:53.371
 So they were spending a lot of naval
 
 00:13:53.392 --> 00:13:58.095
 and military resources all around focused
 
 00:13:58.134 --> 00:13:59.035
 on Gibraltar, again,
 
 00:13:59.056 --> 00:14:01.457
 to the detriment of a lot of other
 
 00:14:01.498 --> 00:14:02.399
 objectives of the war.
 
 00:14:03.361 --> 00:14:03.642
 You know,
 
 00:14:03.682 --> 00:14:05.403
 and I guess this leads us into a
 
 00:14:05.442 --> 00:14:07.063
 discussion about priorities.
 
 00:14:07.764 --> 00:14:09.184
 And obviously,
 
 00:14:09.645 --> 00:14:12.226
 the loss of the thirteen North American
 
 00:14:12.287 --> 00:14:15.849
 colonies in the grand imperial scheme
 
 00:14:15.908 --> 00:14:17.950
 doesn't really amount to much for Great
 
 00:14:17.970 --> 00:14:18.250
 Britain.
 
 00:14:18.410 --> 00:14:21.272
 Everybody's after the Caribbean sugar
 
 00:14:21.351 --> 00:14:22.572
 islands in particular.
 
 00:14:22.993 --> 00:14:23.513
 Obviously,
 
 00:14:23.552 --> 00:14:26.095
 they want to hold on to India because
 
 00:14:26.134 --> 00:14:29.017
 of all the wealth and riches of the
 
 00:14:29.116 --> 00:14:30.076
 East India Company.
 
 00:14:31.857 --> 00:14:34.120
 So what were the other countries'
 
 00:14:34.941 --> 00:14:37.102
 priorities in holding on to these?
 
 00:14:37.163 --> 00:14:37.823
 I mean, obviously,
 
 00:14:37.903 --> 00:14:40.066
 France spent a lot of time and money
 
 00:14:40.105 --> 00:14:42.947
 trying to support their Caribbean
 
 00:14:43.008 --> 00:14:43.548
 colonies.
 
 00:14:43.609 --> 00:14:46.630
 And I'm sure Spain kept an eye out
 
 00:14:46.692 --> 00:14:49.653
 on more mainland Central American ports
 
 00:14:49.673 --> 00:14:50.475
 and things like that.
 
 00:14:51.388 --> 00:14:51.707
 Yeah.
 
 00:14:51.807 --> 00:14:52.048
 Yeah.
 
 00:14:52.328 --> 00:14:52.568
 Yes.
 
 00:14:52.889 --> 00:14:55.451
 The Caribbean became such a focus because,
 
 00:14:55.491 --> 00:14:57.793
 as you said, the sugar plantations,
 
 00:14:57.833 --> 00:14:58.955
 that's where the real money was.
 
 00:14:58.975 --> 00:15:01.216
 That was those were the most valuable
 
 00:15:01.277 --> 00:15:03.058
 colonies in the British Empire.
 
 00:15:03.139 --> 00:15:05.660
 And so Britain was worried that their
 
 00:15:05.701 --> 00:15:06.481
 colonies were at risk,
 
 00:15:06.501 --> 00:15:07.383
 particularly Jamaica.
 
 00:15:07.903 --> 00:15:09.283
 France and Spain had their eyes.
 
 00:15:09.565 --> 00:15:10.926
 Spain wanted to recover Jamaica.
 
 00:15:10.966 --> 00:15:11.986
 France was going to help.
 
 00:15:12.067 --> 00:15:13.928
 And they they did, in fact.
 
 00:15:14.609 --> 00:15:16.929
 mounted expedition that was cut off to try
 
 00:15:16.950 --> 00:15:17.750
 to take Jamaica.
 
 00:15:17.769 --> 00:15:20.650
 But there were battles over a number of
 
 00:15:20.750 --> 00:15:24.052
 Caribbean islands that changed hands and
 
 00:15:24.511 --> 00:15:26.972
 some of them were later restored to the
 
 00:15:27.173 --> 00:15:29.712
 previous colonial power after the war.
 
 00:15:29.773 --> 00:15:31.573
 But that was a source of a lot
 
 00:15:31.594 --> 00:15:33.494
 of the fighting and a big worry because
 
 00:15:33.594 --> 00:15:34.774
 once France entered the war,
 
 00:15:35.575 --> 00:15:36.615
 In seventeen seventy eight,
 
 00:15:36.654 --> 00:15:38.716
 Britain realized that their islands could
 
 00:15:38.735 --> 00:15:39.696
 be in jeopardy.
 
 00:15:39.755 --> 00:15:41.296
 That's why they evacuated Philadelphia,
 
 00:15:41.615 --> 00:15:42.937
 because they need to send five thousand
 
 00:15:42.956 --> 00:15:44.076
 troops down to Jamaica.
 
 00:15:44.136 --> 00:15:45.817
 They sent another three thousand to
 
 00:15:45.857 --> 00:15:46.837
 protect the Floridas.
 
 00:15:47.378 --> 00:15:50.839
 So so having having these this this
 
 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:52.778
 coalition in the war just open up all
 
 00:15:52.818 --> 00:15:54.279
 these fronts and put Britain all of a
 
 00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:55.259
 sudden on the defensive.
 
 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:58.422
 because it was almost them against the
 
 00:15:58.442 --> 00:15:58.761
 world.
 
 00:15:58.981 --> 00:16:00.243
 It's a bit of an exaggeration,
 
 00:16:00.263 --> 00:16:01.585
 but they didn't have a lot of allies
 
 00:16:01.605 --> 00:16:03.886
 while this group of nations was ganging up
 
 00:16:03.927 --> 00:16:05.967
 on them and attacking them in places all
 
 00:16:05.988 --> 00:16:06.509
 around the world.
 
 00:16:07.769 --> 00:16:08.650
 Yeah, and of course,
 
 00:16:09.230 --> 00:16:11.273
 you tell this great story and you should
 
 00:16:11.293 --> 00:16:13.695
 tell our audience about your trip to St.
 
 00:16:13.754 --> 00:16:15.777
 Eustacia because that plays an important
 
 00:16:15.817 --> 00:16:20.179
 role in the psyche of America, of course,
 
 00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:21.942
 after they declare independence.
 
 00:16:22.648 --> 00:16:24.109
 yeah this is this was such a great
 
 00:16:24.149 --> 00:16:26.490
 trip this was my favorite so the island
 
 00:16:26.551 --> 00:16:29.052
 of saint eustatius which nicknamed statia
 
 00:16:29.533 --> 00:16:31.094
 is how everybody calls it down there a
 
 00:16:31.234 --> 00:16:34.576
 tiny island it's just about uh a quarter
 
 00:16:34.596 --> 00:16:37.258
 the size of manhattan and only three
 
 00:16:37.278 --> 00:16:38.578
 thousand people live there there were a
 
 00:16:38.599 --> 00:16:40.801
 lot more people living there in seventeen
 
 00:16:40.821 --> 00:16:42.902
 seventy six than there are today so but
 
 00:16:42.942 --> 00:16:44.822
 this was this was a dutch island it
 
 00:16:44.863 --> 00:16:46.124
 still is a dutch island and it was
 
 00:16:46.303 --> 00:16:47.884
 it was their free port so it was
 
 00:16:48.785 --> 00:16:50.706
 really the center of a trade network.
 
 00:16:50.726 --> 00:16:53.726
 And it was positioned very favorably in
 
 00:16:53.746 --> 00:16:56.768
 the Caribbean for ships from all over to
 
 00:16:56.807 --> 00:16:59.269
 go and dock there.
 
 00:16:59.448 --> 00:17:01.450
 And so we were already doing a lot
 
 00:17:01.470 --> 00:17:04.150
 of smuggling trade with Stacia before the
 
 00:17:04.190 --> 00:17:04.450
 war.
 
 00:17:04.550 --> 00:17:06.790
 And then as the war broke out,
 
 00:17:06.830 --> 00:17:10.271
 that's where so much of the guns and
 
 00:17:10.551 --> 00:17:12.633
 gunpowder was shipped to St.
 
 00:17:12.692 --> 00:17:13.252
 Eustatius.
 
 00:17:13.893 --> 00:17:16.173
 So after the Declaration of Independence
 
 00:17:16.193 --> 00:17:16.713
 was signed,
 
 00:17:17.094 --> 00:17:20.478
 it was sent on ships to Europe and
 
 00:17:20.597 --> 00:17:21.798
 also a brig,
 
 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:23.921
 the Andrew Doria that went to the
 
 00:17:23.961 --> 00:17:24.301
 Caribbean.
 
 00:17:24.342 --> 00:17:25.923
 And so part of that was even part
 
 00:17:25.942 --> 00:17:27.305
 of the reason for the declaration being
 
 00:17:27.365 --> 00:17:29.707
 signed was to invite other nations of the
 
 00:17:29.747 --> 00:17:31.429
 world to now join our cause now that
 
 00:17:31.528 --> 00:17:34.451
 America was a true nation and independent.
 
 00:17:35.012 --> 00:17:37.315
 And so the brig sailed in there and
 
 00:17:37.335 --> 00:17:38.135
 the governor of
 
 00:17:38.536 --> 00:17:42.179
 stacia ordered a canon salute for the brig
 
 00:17:42.419 --> 00:17:43.740
 and uh so it was the first time
 
 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:46.761
 the u.s flag was saluted by a foreign
 
 00:17:46.801 --> 00:17:48.363
 power which was a great story a great
 
 00:17:48.403 --> 00:17:49.903
 morale boost and then he hosted the
 
 00:17:49.943 --> 00:17:52.246
 american captain for a dinner and a party
 
 00:17:52.826 --> 00:17:54.548
 and it was definitely a morale boost he
 
 00:17:54.887 --> 00:17:56.229
 actually the governor had gotten a little
 
 00:17:56.249 --> 00:17:57.950
 ahead of himself because the netherlands
 
 00:17:57.990 --> 00:17:59.510
 by no means wanted to enter the war
 
 00:17:59.530 --> 00:18:01.972
 at that point and he was not supposed
 
 00:18:01.992 --> 00:18:03.173
 to have done that at all so they
 
 00:18:03.213 --> 00:18:04.355
 kind of had to walk it back
 
 00:18:04.875 --> 00:18:06.355
 So ultimately,
 
 00:18:06.675 --> 00:18:09.718
 that wasn't maybe the most important thing
 
 00:18:09.817 --> 00:18:09.958
 St.
 
 00:18:09.998 --> 00:18:11.499
 Eustatius gave us wasn't the salute.
 
 00:18:11.558 --> 00:18:11.919
 Ultimately,
 
 00:18:11.939 --> 00:18:13.119
 it was just it was the smuggling that
 
 00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:16.481
 they kept giving arms throughout.
 
 00:18:16.582 --> 00:18:17.883
 Even in seventeen seventy nine,
 
 00:18:17.923 --> 00:18:19.403
 there were something like seven to ten
 
 00:18:19.443 --> 00:18:21.505
 American ships docking in St.
 
 00:18:21.545 --> 00:18:24.467
 Eustatius every day and loading up with
 
 00:18:24.507 --> 00:18:25.627
 supplies and going back.
 
 00:18:25.948 --> 00:18:27.888
 so it's what a fascinating place it's a
 
 00:18:27.969 --> 00:18:30.569
 beautiful island and they recreate this
 
 00:18:30.670 --> 00:18:33.412
 this canon salute every november it's the
 
 00:18:33.471 --> 00:18:35.932
 big festival the uh the biggest day on
 
 00:18:35.972 --> 00:18:37.574
 the island and i think this year this
 
 00:18:37.614 --> 00:18:38.594
 fall is going to be a really big
 
 00:18:38.634 --> 00:18:41.155
 one as well so again if any listeners
 
 00:18:41.276 --> 00:18:42.715
 are in the caribbean it's near saint
 
 00:18:42.756 --> 00:18:44.336
 martin if you're ever ever there i would
 
 00:18:44.477 --> 00:18:46.678
 highly recommend making a detour and
 
 00:18:46.718 --> 00:18:47.558
 checking out this island
 
 00:18:48.499 --> 00:18:50.500
 that's amazing we're talking with derek
 
 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.080
 baxter the author of the forgotten world
 
 00:18:53.161 --> 00:18:55.721
 war a book on the international
 
 00:18:55.820 --> 00:18:58.102
 implications of the american revolution
 
 00:18:58.701 --> 00:19:01.343
 and we've been talking most recently about
 
 00:19:01.363 --> 00:19:03.423
 uh the caribbean and and i do want
 
 00:19:03.443 --> 00:19:06.045
 to highlight the fact that from the very
 
 00:19:06.125 --> 00:19:09.645
 first days of of the revolution here we
 
 00:19:09.965 --> 00:19:10.185
 um uh the
 
 00:19:14.153 --> 00:19:17.415
 the need for military supplies was greater
 
 00:19:17.455 --> 00:19:19.397
 than anything we could produce ourselves.
 
 00:19:19.438 --> 00:19:22.359
 And so we relied upon international
 
 00:19:22.579 --> 00:19:25.942
 mercantile relationships to provide us
 
 00:19:25.962 --> 00:19:26.502
 with these things.
 
 00:19:27.544 --> 00:19:28.684
 One of the questions I had was,
 
 00:19:28.984 --> 00:19:30.786
 do you get a sense in going to
 
 00:19:31.067 --> 00:19:33.048
 any of these countries that it was more
 
 00:19:33.087 --> 00:19:34.288
 than just the materials?
 
 00:19:34.509 --> 00:19:37.912
 Did they supply technological know-how?
 
 00:19:38.291 --> 00:19:41.555
 Were they sending military advisors,
 
 00:19:41.615 --> 00:19:42.935
 which is sort of the...
 
 00:19:44.017 --> 00:19:46.278
 The modern parlance for sending people
 
 00:19:46.358 --> 00:19:49.481
 over who could help further the American
 
 00:19:49.821 --> 00:19:52.044
 technology tactics,
 
 00:19:52.204 --> 00:19:53.665
 any of that sort of work.
 
 00:19:54.644 --> 00:19:57.086
 Well, many, many came, many volunteers,
 
 00:19:57.125 --> 00:19:59.768
 many European volunteers came via France.
 
 00:19:59.948 --> 00:20:00.748
 And of course,
 
 00:20:01.108 --> 00:20:02.809
 even before the French officially joined
 
 00:20:02.829 --> 00:20:04.691
 the war in seventeen seventy eight.
 
 00:20:05.750 --> 00:20:06.912
 And you have, of course,
 
 00:20:06.932 --> 00:20:08.952
 the most famous of them being Lafayette.
 
 00:20:08.992 --> 00:20:11.213
 But you had you had, you know,
 
 00:20:11.374 --> 00:20:13.414
 technical military engineers like Louis
 
 00:20:13.434 --> 00:20:16.656
 Dupont who was a brilliant engineer who
 
 00:20:17.278 --> 00:20:20.199
 who helped Washington establish the
 
 00:20:20.259 --> 00:20:22.921
 fortifications at at Valley Forge.
 
 00:20:23.621 --> 00:20:24.882
 did the same at Yorktown.
 
 00:20:24.922 --> 00:20:26.944
 So he played a role throughout the war.
 
 00:20:26.984 --> 00:20:29.307
 There were other French engineers like
 
 00:20:29.326 --> 00:20:34.412
 Fleury who worked with Fort Mifflin,
 
 00:20:34.472 --> 00:20:37.836
 and then Kosciusko, the Polish engineer.
 
 00:20:37.875 --> 00:20:41.460
 So it was a lot of technical know-how
 
 00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:43.801
 that the American, the Continental Army,
 
 00:20:44.813 --> 00:20:46.294
 didn't have the same degree.
 
 00:20:46.614 --> 00:20:47.894
 So that was certainly something that
 
 00:20:48.315 --> 00:20:49.715
 Americans were looking out for.
 
 00:20:49.955 --> 00:20:51.416
 They also got some charlatans and
 
 00:20:51.777 --> 00:20:52.917
 volunteers that they really didn't know
 
 00:20:52.938 --> 00:20:54.098
 what to do with and didn't want.
 
 00:20:54.159 --> 00:20:57.340
 But among all those, there were some,
 
 00:20:57.520 --> 00:20:57.740
 I think,
 
 00:20:57.800 --> 00:21:00.163
 key volunteers that really did contribute
 
 00:21:00.182 --> 00:21:00.403
 a lot.
 
 00:21:01.732 --> 00:21:04.114
 Yeah, so what about, like,
 
 00:21:04.334 --> 00:21:08.555
 manufacture of gunpowder or foundry
 
 00:21:08.595 --> 00:21:12.215
 methods to create heavy artillery and
 
 00:21:13.076 --> 00:21:14.236
 shipbuilding techniques?
 
 00:21:14.256 --> 00:21:14.556
 You know,
 
 00:21:15.396 --> 00:21:17.336
 Massachusetts played a leading role in the
 
 00:21:17.356 --> 00:21:18.416
 shipbuilding industry.
 
 00:21:18.876 --> 00:21:21.337
 Are they changing how they're building
 
 00:21:21.377 --> 00:21:25.979
 ships based upon what foreign vessels are
 
 00:21:26.038 --> 00:21:28.079
 providing them in terms of technological
 
 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:28.539
 change?
 
 00:21:29.607 --> 00:21:29.827
 Well,
 
 00:21:30.229 --> 00:21:32.633
 the Americans certainly got a jumpstart on
 
 00:21:33.674 --> 00:21:35.198
 making more warships because the
 
 00:21:35.258 --> 00:21:36.941
 shipbuilding industry hadn't been focused
 
 00:21:38.143 --> 00:21:41.268
 on that as much before the war.
 
 00:21:41.888 --> 00:21:43.392
 We hadn't produced any ships of the line
 
 00:21:44.587 --> 00:21:46.028
 But I think ultimately it was still,
 
 00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:48.830
 it took so long to build the ships
 
 00:21:48.871 --> 00:21:50.471
 that even though we established our Navy,
 
 00:21:51.211 --> 00:21:53.413
 it was truly the French and Spanish Navy
 
 00:21:53.453 --> 00:21:56.255
 that were needed to combat the British
 
 00:21:56.295 --> 00:21:56.576
 Navy,
 
 00:21:56.615 --> 00:21:58.656
 which was the most powerful in the history
 
 00:21:58.676 --> 00:21:59.998
 of the world up until that point.
 
 00:22:00.057 --> 00:22:01.778
 And it was more powerful than either one
 
 00:22:01.818 --> 00:22:03.859
 of the French or Spanish separately,
 
 00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:06.761
 but combined this coalition had a chance
 
 00:22:06.801 --> 00:22:07.221
 against it.
 
 00:22:07.261 --> 00:22:07.663
 And of course,
 
 00:22:08.123 --> 00:22:10.944
 this was the age of the sea power
 
 00:22:10.964 --> 00:22:12.865
 was so important in terms of
 
 00:22:13.826 --> 00:22:15.586
 transporting soldiers,
 
 00:22:16.606 --> 00:22:19.946
 opening up new battles and, you know,
 
 00:22:19.987 --> 00:22:22.407
 surprising the enemy and land travel was
 
 00:22:22.428 --> 00:22:23.288
 so difficult at the time.
 
 00:22:23.327 --> 00:22:25.788
 So it was the age of sail and
 
 00:22:26.107 --> 00:22:27.828
 definitely having France and Spain there
 
 00:22:28.509 --> 00:22:28.888
 in the war,
 
 00:22:28.929 --> 00:22:30.628
 I think was just a complete game changer.
 
 00:22:31.209 --> 00:22:32.529
 Because that's something we certainly
 
 00:22:32.549 --> 00:22:36.430
 didn't have, you know, a true Navy that,
 
 00:22:36.549 --> 00:22:36.730
 you know,
 
 00:22:36.750 --> 00:22:37.711
 at the beginning of the war anyway,
 
 00:22:37.730 --> 00:22:39.750
 that could take on His Majesty's Navy.
 
 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:42.340
 And you talk about,
 
 00:22:43.061 --> 00:22:45.222
 we started talking about the Seven Years
 
 00:22:45.263 --> 00:22:47.925
 War or the French and Indian War,
 
 00:22:47.965 --> 00:22:49.826
 however you want to style it,
 
 00:22:49.946 --> 00:22:52.689
 early on as sort of a precursor World
 
 00:22:52.729 --> 00:22:55.191
 War to what happened during the American
 
 00:22:55.230 --> 00:22:55.730
 Revolution.
 
 00:22:56.231 --> 00:22:58.373
 And certainly one of the richest fields of
 
 00:22:58.433 --> 00:22:59.134
 study, I think,
 
 00:22:59.153 --> 00:23:01.015
 for people is what's going on in India.
 
 00:23:01.395 --> 00:23:03.877
 So can you give our audience where things
 
 00:23:03.998 --> 00:23:06.179
 ended at the Seven Years War in India
 
 00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:08.320
 and then how that played out during the
 
 00:23:08.361 --> 00:23:09.321
 American Revolution?
 
 00:23:09.961 --> 00:23:10.362
 Sure.
 
 00:23:13.463 --> 00:23:15.184
 So India at that time,
 
 00:23:15.644 --> 00:23:17.105
 it wasn't like the India that we may
 
 00:23:17.426 --> 00:23:19.126
 think of reflexively of, you know,
 
 00:23:19.167 --> 00:23:20.807
 Britain is in control as they would be
 
 00:23:20.867 --> 00:23:22.509
 a hundred years later of the whole
 
 00:23:22.548 --> 00:23:23.130
 subcontinent.
 
 00:23:23.569 --> 00:23:25.570
 The Raj doesn't exist at this point.
 
 00:23:25.590 --> 00:23:26.030
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:23:26.050 --> 00:23:27.271
 We're well before that.
 
 00:23:27.311 --> 00:23:29.614
 So the East India Company is quite
 
 00:23:29.653 --> 00:23:30.054
 powerful,
 
 00:23:30.074 --> 00:23:32.454
 this multinational company that has its
 
 00:23:32.535 --> 00:23:33.435
 own army and navy.
 
 00:23:34.096 --> 00:23:34.715
 They have a
 
 00:23:36.657 --> 00:23:37.740
 They are certainly ascendant,
 
 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:39.902
 but the French had colonies in India at
 
 00:23:39.922 --> 00:23:41.624
 the time, the Dutch did as well,
 
 00:23:42.105 --> 00:23:44.126
 and there were still many kingdoms and
 
 00:23:44.186 --> 00:23:46.329
 states independent of all of these.
 
 00:23:47.811 --> 00:23:48.813
 And it was a very volatile time.
 
 00:23:48.833 --> 00:23:50.855
 There had been a lot of infighting in
 
 00:23:50.875 --> 00:23:50.935
 the
 
 00:23:53.198 --> 00:23:56.618
 in India and when war broke out the
 
 00:23:56.699 --> 00:23:59.259
 the British in India actually learned that
 
 00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:01.539
 that France had entered the war before the
 
 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.260
 French in India did because they got word
 
 00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:05.340
 through Egypt uh and they surprised the
 
 00:24:05.381 --> 00:24:06.642
 French you know they just all of a
 
 00:24:06.662 --> 00:24:08.082
 sudden attacked the French who had no idea
 
 00:24:08.102 --> 00:24:10.742
 what was coming um and what decisions had
 
 00:24:10.762 --> 00:24:12.863
 been made months earlier back in in
 
 00:24:13.042 --> 00:24:15.064
 Versailles and so um
 
 00:24:16.088 --> 00:24:17.490
 the British were able to take over the
 
 00:24:17.509 --> 00:24:19.131
 French colonies pretty easily.
 
 00:24:19.711 --> 00:24:20.691
 But by doing that,
 
 00:24:20.730 --> 00:24:22.952
 they angered the Mysore Kingdom,
 
 00:24:23.292 --> 00:24:25.794
 which was this independent kingdom in
 
 00:24:25.933 --> 00:24:26.615
 Southwest
 
 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.281
 India that that had been allied with with
 
 00:24:30.321 --> 00:24:32.083
 the French and got arms from the French
 
 00:24:32.103 --> 00:24:33.002
 and they didn't want to see the French
 
 00:24:33.442 --> 00:24:34.844
 that that outlet gone and they didn't
 
 00:24:34.864 --> 00:24:36.924
 trust the British so they can't they
 
 00:24:36.964 --> 00:24:38.766
 joined the fray and this and this was
 
 00:24:38.826 --> 00:24:41.126
 a huge a huge army that they could
 
 00:24:41.166 --> 00:24:44.147
 muster the uh under Hyder uh Hyder Ali
 
 00:24:44.167 --> 00:24:46.989
 they they they marched ninety thousand
 
 00:24:47.028 --> 00:24:49.069
 troops out into the plains of the Carnatic
 
 00:24:49.190 --> 00:24:51.651
 and they had they had cavalry men riding
 
 00:24:51.671 --> 00:24:53.471
 horses they had other men riding elephants
 
 00:24:53.551 --> 00:24:53.751
 which
 
 00:24:54.471 --> 00:24:56.994
 scared the English and the Scottish
 
 00:24:57.015 --> 00:24:58.655
 Highlanders to no end when they saw these
 
 00:24:58.777 --> 00:24:59.657
 elephants charging at them.
 
 00:24:59.698 --> 00:25:02.180
 And they also had people firing rockets
 
 00:25:02.721 --> 00:25:04.021
 encased in iron tubes,
 
 00:25:04.061 --> 00:25:05.523
 which were mobile and could be brought to
 
 00:25:05.544 --> 00:25:06.144
 the battle site,
 
 00:25:06.163 --> 00:25:09.768
 which was new technology that wasn't super
 
 00:25:09.807 --> 00:25:10.208
 effective.
 
 00:25:10.248 --> 00:25:10.588
 But again,
 
 00:25:10.628 --> 00:25:12.130
 it was terrifying seeing these rockets
 
 00:25:12.150 --> 00:25:13.592
 being shot at you from the battlefield.
 
 00:25:13.632 --> 00:25:15.574
 And so the British would later incorporate
 
 00:25:15.594 --> 00:25:16.355
 that technology
 
 00:25:16.914 --> 00:25:19.016
 and use it you know use it against
 
 00:25:19.036 --> 00:25:20.175
 the americans in the war of eighteen
 
 00:25:20.195 --> 00:25:21.876
 twelve and that's where we get our line
 
 00:25:22.376 --> 00:25:25.338
 in the star spangled banner that's the red
 
 00:25:25.358 --> 00:25:27.599
 glare it came from those mysorean rockets
 
 00:25:27.619 --> 00:25:29.319
 that they developed the technology so
 
 00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:31.040
 there's there's there's several battles
 
 00:25:31.080 --> 00:25:32.642
 and i went to i went to the
 
 00:25:32.721 --> 00:25:34.762
 sites of several battlefields in india
 
 00:25:34.782 --> 00:25:36.262
 which are not at all preserved there's no
 
 00:25:36.323 --> 00:25:38.364
 like you know national park service uh no
 
 00:25:38.403 --> 00:25:40.164
 rangers and stuff like that you're you're
 
 00:25:40.204 --> 00:25:42.086
 definitely on your own finding a lot of
 
 00:25:42.105 --> 00:25:44.086
 these places but again i thought it was
 
 00:25:44.145 --> 00:25:44.886
 fascinating to
 
 00:25:46.227 --> 00:25:47.587
 to see some of these places and maybe
 
 00:25:47.667 --> 00:25:49.448
 see how some of the forts look the
 
 00:25:49.508 --> 00:25:51.189
 same even from forts I had seen in
 
 00:25:51.269 --> 00:25:54.329
 Europe and even some of the same
 
 00:25:54.390 --> 00:25:56.530
 characters in the Revolutionary War
 
 00:25:56.790 --> 00:25:58.231
 traveled around to the different theaters.
 
 00:25:58.271 --> 00:26:00.031
 So these were not just separate conflicts
 
 00:26:00.051 --> 00:26:01.192
 going on that happened to be at the
 
 00:26:01.212 --> 00:26:01.712
 same time.
 
 00:26:01.732 --> 00:26:04.933
 You have British and French military
 
 00:26:05.013 --> 00:26:06.875
 officers transferring sometimes between
 
 00:26:06.914 --> 00:26:09.516
 the theaters and naval ships going from
 
 00:26:09.875 --> 00:26:11.675
 the Caribbean and then winding up fighting
 
 00:26:11.817 --> 00:26:12.356
 off India.
 
 00:26:12.477 --> 00:26:12.676
 So
 
 00:26:13.737 --> 00:26:13.936
 Yeah,
 
 00:26:14.377 --> 00:26:15.577
 I think that opened up my eyes a
 
 00:26:15.617 --> 00:26:17.838
 lot to the Revolutionary War truly was
 
 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:19.799
 much, much larger than we thought.
 
 00:26:20.601 --> 00:26:20.701
 Right.
 
 00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:22.922
 It has a lasting impact into other
 
 00:26:22.981 --> 00:26:25.222
 conflicts that are yet to come after the
 
 00:26:25.262 --> 00:26:26.243
 American Revolution.
 
 00:26:28.845 --> 00:26:30.786
 Do they talk about it in India?
 
 00:26:30.826 --> 00:26:32.926
 Do they talk about that period of time?
 
 00:26:32.967 --> 00:26:34.327
 No.
 
 00:26:36.016 --> 00:26:38.538
 Not much about the Revolutionary War in
 
 00:26:38.618 --> 00:26:39.279
 particular.
 
 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:41.162
 So I went to,
 
 00:26:42.463 --> 00:26:45.366
 the East India Company is remembered at
 
 00:26:45.446 --> 00:26:48.990
 Chennai in particular, what was Madras.
 
 00:26:49.030 --> 00:26:49.991
 And I went to,
 
 00:26:50.272 --> 00:26:51.354
 there's a museum about there.
 
 00:26:51.433 --> 00:26:53.676
 So there's some discussion of it there and
 
 00:26:53.696 --> 00:26:55.137
 you can see some cannons they had.
 
 00:26:56.598 --> 00:27:00.161
 And on the other side of India,
 
 00:27:00.201 --> 00:27:01.421
 where the Mysore Kingdom is,
 
 00:27:02.181 --> 00:27:04.321
 you can see the palace of Haider Ali
 
 00:27:04.442 --> 00:27:05.582
 and Tipu Sultan.
 
 00:27:05.642 --> 00:27:06.843
 And so there,
 
 00:27:06.903 --> 00:27:07.982
 specifically in this one place,
 
 00:27:08.042 --> 00:27:11.223
 it's remembered because there's murals.
 
 00:27:11.263 --> 00:27:12.644
 It's almost like the Bayou Tapestry,
 
 00:27:12.664 --> 00:27:15.026
 these huge murals that cover a whole wall
 
 00:27:15.125 --> 00:27:15.766
 of the palace.
 
 00:27:16.306 --> 00:27:17.767
 showing the fighting between the english
 
 00:27:17.807 --> 00:27:20.328
 and the french and the mysoreans so that's
 
 00:27:20.368 --> 00:27:21.490
 really interesting but for the most part
 
 00:27:21.569 --> 00:27:23.250
 no that you're definitely i mean there's
 
 00:27:23.590 --> 00:27:26.153
 also i have to respect the fact that
 
 00:27:26.192 --> 00:27:27.993
 they have thousands and thousands of years
 
 00:27:28.034 --> 00:27:30.135
 of history so sure this is this is
 
 00:27:30.336 --> 00:27:32.436
 one piece of fighting but uh their history
 
 00:27:32.477 --> 00:27:36.220
 is so deep um that uh it's it's
 
 00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:39.201
 not the same moment obviously as is as
 
 00:27:39.622 --> 00:27:40.242
 as it is here
 
 00:27:41.306 --> 00:27:42.626
 And of course, after the war,
 
 00:27:42.727 --> 00:27:45.627
 General Cornwallis and numbers of British
 
 00:27:45.708 --> 00:27:47.548
 officers would go to India to sort of
 
 00:27:47.628 --> 00:27:51.570
 rehabilitate their reputations after the
 
 00:27:51.590 --> 00:27:52.451
 defeat in America.
 
 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:54.862
 Yes, Cornwallis,
 
 00:27:55.061 --> 00:27:56.282
 he did a great job with that.
 
 00:27:56.383 --> 00:27:58.265
 And so I was surprised to see because
 
 00:27:58.305 --> 00:27:59.586
 here we, you know,
 
 00:27:59.686 --> 00:28:01.469
 I'm here in Virginia and Cornwallis is
 
 00:28:01.568 --> 00:28:03.490
 certainly just remembered as the villain
 
 00:28:03.611 --> 00:28:04.592
 and the loser.
 
 00:28:04.811 --> 00:28:08.056
 And I got to Chennai and there's a
 
 00:28:08.096 --> 00:28:09.116
 huge statue of him.
 
 00:28:09.196 --> 00:28:12.380
 So he was very successful in fighting the
 
 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:14.261
 Mysore Kingdom after the Revolutionary
 
 00:28:14.301 --> 00:28:14.402
 War.
 
 00:28:14.422 --> 00:28:15.542
 There are two more wars.
 
 00:28:16.344 --> 00:28:18.728
 And ultimately the leader,
 
 00:28:19.769 --> 00:28:21.972
 ultimately the kingdom was defeated and
 
 00:28:22.153 --> 00:28:23.916
 Tipu Sultan was killed.
 
 00:28:26.695 --> 00:28:27.336
 Can you still hear me?
 
 00:28:27.776 --> 00:28:28.615
 Yeah.
 
 00:28:28.635 --> 00:28:28.736
 Yeah.
 
 00:28:28.756 --> 00:28:28.855
 Yeah.
 
 00:28:28.935 --> 00:28:29.076
 Yeah.
 
 00:28:29.096 --> 00:28:29.196
 Okay.
 
 00:28:29.336 --> 00:28:29.517
 Great.
 
 00:28:29.537 --> 00:28:31.297
 Uh, and, and,
 
 00:28:31.477 --> 00:28:33.376
 and so his reputation was rehabilitated
 
 00:28:33.517 --> 00:28:36.518
 and there's, there's a large tall statue.
 
 00:28:36.538 --> 00:28:37.538
 I can't remember how tall it is,
 
 00:28:37.557 --> 00:28:39.439
 but it's, it's, uh,
 
 00:28:39.459 --> 00:28:41.419
 I had to like climb up a stair
 
 00:28:41.618 --> 00:28:43.199
 way to kind of look directly at it.
 
 00:28:43.219 --> 00:28:44.759
 Um, and, uh, that, that,
 
 00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:47.460
 that the grateful, the grateful merchants,
 
 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:48.140
 um,
 
 00:28:48.721 --> 00:28:51.480
 of Chennai raised money of Madras raised
 
 00:28:51.560 --> 00:28:54.041
 money to, uh, to honor Cornwallis.
 
 00:28:54.102 --> 00:28:55.301
 So yeah, he became a hero there.
 
 00:28:55.442 --> 00:28:55.642
 And,
 
 00:28:56.229 --> 00:28:57.809
 and certainly restored his reputation.
 
 00:28:58.631 --> 00:28:59.811
 That's really impressive.
 
 00:29:02.354 --> 00:29:04.015
 So we've been to India,
 
 00:29:04.055 --> 00:29:06.977
 we've been to Spain and France.
 
 00:29:07.617 --> 00:29:08.538
 What about the Netherlands?
 
 00:29:08.679 --> 00:29:10.640
 Where are the Netherlands in all of this?
 
 00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:12.281
 We talked a little bit about Stasia,
 
 00:29:12.362 --> 00:29:15.304
 but what about the home country?
 
 00:29:16.859 --> 00:29:17.180
 Yeah.
 
 00:29:18.340 --> 00:29:19.663
 So the Netherlands were trying.
 
 00:29:19.742 --> 00:29:22.005
 They were they were in an interesting
 
 00:29:22.045 --> 00:29:22.525
 position.
 
 00:29:22.545 --> 00:29:24.507
 So they were smuggling arms throughout.
 
 00:29:24.606 --> 00:29:25.227
 Officially,
 
 00:29:25.267 --> 00:29:27.950
 the government was neutral for most of the
 
 00:29:27.990 --> 00:29:28.349
 conflict.
 
 00:29:28.390 --> 00:29:29.770
 They did not want to be dragged into
 
 00:29:29.830 --> 00:29:31.353
 it because, you know,
 
 00:29:31.393 --> 00:29:33.914
 the Dutch Empire had had greatly declined
 
 00:29:33.974 --> 00:29:35.135
 from the seventeenth century.
 
 00:29:35.155 --> 00:29:36.576
 They knew that they were very vulnerable
 
 00:29:36.696 --> 00:29:36.798
 if.
 
 00:29:37.377 --> 00:29:38.159
 if Britain attacked them.
 
 00:29:38.179 --> 00:29:39.619
 They had historically been an ally of
 
 00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:39.940
 Britain,
 
 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.041
 so they didn't want to get into the
 
 00:29:42.082 --> 00:29:42.482
 conflict.
 
 00:29:42.542 --> 00:29:44.845
 But the merchants of Amsterdam in
 
 00:29:44.904 --> 00:29:47.166
 particular had a lot of pro-American
 
 00:29:47.207 --> 00:29:47.586
 sentiment.
 
 00:29:47.606 --> 00:29:49.368
 That was one place where the kind of
 
 00:29:49.409 --> 00:29:51.471
 the ideals of liberty really were
 
 00:29:52.352 --> 00:29:54.513
 resonating was in the Netherlands.
 
 00:29:54.693 --> 00:29:56.095
 And they were just making a ton of
 
 00:29:56.154 --> 00:29:57.876
 money shipping these arms off.
 
 00:29:57.936 --> 00:29:59.759
 And just the markup was incredible by the
 
 00:29:59.798 --> 00:30:00.058
 time it
 
 00:30:00.459 --> 00:30:01.820
 It finally got to the Americans.
 
 00:30:01.861 --> 00:30:04.604
 So they were doing just a brisk business
 
 00:30:04.644 --> 00:30:07.708
 that was angering the British to no end
 
 00:30:07.748 --> 00:30:08.930
 throughout because they knew exactly what
 
 00:30:08.950 --> 00:30:09.369
 was happening.
 
 00:30:09.711 --> 00:30:11.373
 Even some English merchants in the
 
 00:30:11.393 --> 00:30:12.775
 Caribbean were getting in on the business,
 
 00:30:12.815 --> 00:30:14.537
 smuggling arms to the Americans.
 
 00:30:16.154 --> 00:30:18.499
 So so the Dutch tried to stay out
 
 00:30:18.538 --> 00:30:18.719
 of it.
 
 00:30:18.798 --> 00:30:19.519
 And finally,
 
 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:21.442
 in December of seventeen eighty,
 
 00:30:21.943 --> 00:30:23.766
 Britain had enough and preemptively
 
 00:30:23.826 --> 00:30:25.588
 declared war on the Netherlands and just
 
 00:30:25.648 --> 00:30:27.451
 forced them into the war.
 
 00:30:27.751 --> 00:30:28.814
 And they.
 
 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:33.520
 It wasn't very helpful for the Dutch at
 
 00:30:33.560 --> 00:30:33.681
 all.
 
 00:30:33.921 --> 00:30:35.121
 They did not do so well in this
 
 00:30:35.181 --> 00:30:35.421
 war.
 
 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:38.301
 They lost a number of their Caribbean
 
 00:30:38.402 --> 00:30:39.481
 islands right away.
 
 00:30:40.563 --> 00:30:42.282
 There was a big fight,
 
 00:30:42.323 --> 00:30:43.403
 kind of inconclusive fight,
 
 00:30:43.462 --> 00:30:45.923
 the Battle of Dogger Banks in the North
 
 00:30:45.963 --> 00:30:46.403
 Sea.
 
 00:30:47.624 --> 00:30:49.045
 But it kind of hastened their decline.
 
 00:30:49.105 --> 00:30:49.765
 So that was, I think,
 
 00:30:49.805 --> 00:30:51.025
 some of the irony for some of these,
 
 00:30:51.484 --> 00:30:54.105
 that the countries on the winning side
 
 00:30:54.226 --> 00:30:55.766
 actually didn't come out of the war
 
 00:30:55.826 --> 00:30:57.767
 ultimately in such great shape.
 
 00:30:58.653 --> 00:30:59.814
 Yeah,
 
 00:30:59.834 --> 00:31:02.173
 the golden age of the Dutch Navy had
 
 00:31:02.233 --> 00:31:04.734
 long passed by the time of the American
 
 00:31:04.755 --> 00:31:05.336
 Revolution.
 
 00:31:06.195 --> 00:31:06.596
 It had.
 
 00:31:06.695 --> 00:31:06.935
 It had.
 
 00:31:06.976 --> 00:31:09.757
 So when the British under Sir George
 
 00:31:09.817 --> 00:31:12.278
 Rodney went to attack Stacia, St.
 
 00:31:12.337 --> 00:31:14.378
 Eustatius, they brought this huge fleet.
 
 00:31:14.398 --> 00:31:15.278
 It was overkill.
 
 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:16.920
 They just had dozens and dozens of
 
 00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:17.380
 warships.
 
 00:31:17.420 --> 00:31:18.560
 And the Dutch had like a couple of
 
 00:31:18.601 --> 00:31:20.121
 ships there in the harbor because they
 
 00:31:20.141 --> 00:31:21.001
 were just used to, you know,
 
 00:31:21.021 --> 00:31:21.961
 we trade with everybody.
 
 00:31:21.981 --> 00:31:22.922
 We're friends with everybody.
 
 00:31:22.942 --> 00:31:24.123
 They were not expecting that.
 
 00:31:24.242 --> 00:31:26.183
 And they actually, to their credit,
 
 00:31:26.223 --> 00:31:26.564
 the Dutch...
 
 00:31:27.423 --> 00:31:28.825
 navy put up a fight they didn't just
 
 00:31:28.865 --> 00:31:30.567
 immediately surrender and and their
 
 00:31:30.606 --> 00:31:32.428
 commander got killed you know so for the
 
 00:31:32.468 --> 00:31:33.689
 honor of the flag they tried to put
 
 00:31:33.729 --> 00:31:35.089
 up a fight but they were just no
 
 00:31:35.109 --> 00:31:37.873
 match for the british navy rolling in and
 
 00:31:38.133 --> 00:31:39.953
 and taking st eustatia so yes they had
 
 00:31:39.973 --> 00:31:42.737
 declined quite a bit and um yeah
 
 00:31:43.411 --> 00:31:43.671
 Yeah.
 
 00:31:43.790 --> 00:31:44.530
 So, you know,
 
 00:31:44.550 --> 00:31:46.652
 you talked briefly about the ideas of
 
 00:31:46.711 --> 00:31:48.772
 independence resonating a little bit more
 
 00:31:49.252 --> 00:31:50.173
 in the Netherlands.
 
 00:31:50.292 --> 00:31:53.273
 And you argue in your book that this
 
 00:31:53.334 --> 00:31:56.535
 wasn't about France and Spain and India
 
 00:31:56.595 --> 00:31:59.596
 being enthralled with the ideas of
 
 00:31:59.875 --> 00:32:01.436
 personal liberty and freedoms.
 
 00:32:01.817 --> 00:32:03.678
 It was really about a response to the
 
 00:32:03.718 --> 00:32:04.498
 British Empire.
 
 00:32:05.321 --> 00:32:05.761
 That's right.
 
 00:32:05.801 --> 00:32:06.142
 That's right.
 
 00:32:06.863 --> 00:32:07.742
 They were not all.
 
 00:32:08.903 --> 00:32:11.243
 Yes, it wasn't the word,
 
 00:32:11.263 --> 00:32:12.184
 the part of the Declaration of
 
 00:32:12.204 --> 00:32:13.805
 Independence that they that they liked.
 
 00:32:13.845 --> 00:32:15.365
 It wasn't all the stirring words of,
 
 00:32:16.426 --> 00:32:17.406
 you know, in the preamble,
 
 00:32:17.767 --> 00:32:18.606
 the Jefferson's words.
 
 00:32:18.646 --> 00:32:19.708
 It was really just that we are
 
 00:32:19.768 --> 00:32:20.228
 independent.
 
 00:32:20.248 --> 00:32:21.548
 We're not English anymore.
 
 00:32:21.709 --> 00:32:24.950
 And it was a chance to to to
 
 00:32:24.970 --> 00:32:25.970
 hurt the British Empire,
 
 00:32:25.990 --> 00:32:27.090
 to take them down a peg.
 
 00:32:27.911 --> 00:32:29.672
 um and and to see whatever whatever
 
 00:32:29.751 --> 00:32:31.153
 interest they had they could get out of
 
 00:32:31.173 --> 00:32:32.573
 it like we talked about earlier you know
 
 00:32:32.613 --> 00:32:34.614
 spain trying to get the territory
 
 00:32:34.693 --> 00:32:36.835
 gibraltar the floridas the island of
 
 00:32:36.855 --> 00:32:39.236
 minorca back you know what you secure
 
 00:32:39.256 --> 00:32:40.696
 their possessions in central america
 
 00:32:40.957 --> 00:32:42.597
 whatever it was whatever grudge they had
 
 00:32:42.637 --> 00:32:44.397
 against britain this was the the golden
 
 00:32:44.458 --> 00:32:47.140
 time to to strike when britain was already
 
 00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:47.839
 um
 
 00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:50.342
 so bogged down in fighting in the Thirteen
 
 00:32:50.382 --> 00:32:50.662
 Colonies.
 
 00:32:50.682 --> 00:32:52.943
 So they all had different ideas,
 
 00:32:52.983 --> 00:32:55.886
 but I think it ultimately still worked.
 
 00:32:56.047 --> 00:32:58.108
 And they had trouble coordinating at the
 
 00:32:58.128 --> 00:32:58.429
 beginning.
 
 00:32:59.108 --> 00:33:01.632
 I mentioned just how hard this armada had
 
 00:33:02.231 --> 00:33:04.173
 the Spanish and French navies of combining
 
 00:33:04.193 --> 00:33:06.336
 their forces right away without any
 
 00:33:06.375 --> 00:33:07.557
 training at all to speak of.
 
 00:33:08.196 --> 00:33:09.638
 And there were other instances
 
 00:33:10.259 --> 00:33:10.878
 in the U.S.
 
 00:33:10.898 --> 00:33:12.720
 where the French and continental forces
 
 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:14.461
 like in Rhode Island couldn't cooperate
 
 00:33:14.520 --> 00:33:14.740
 well.
 
 00:33:14.780 --> 00:33:17.903
 So it certainly took a while for all
 
 00:33:17.923 --> 00:33:19.343
 of these members of the coalition to kind
 
 00:33:19.363 --> 00:33:21.785
 of put their self-interest aside and put
 
 00:33:21.805 --> 00:33:23.465
 their ego aside in terms of who is
 
 00:33:23.605 --> 00:33:25.807
 in charge of whatever campaign and find a
 
 00:33:25.826 --> 00:33:26.886
 way to work together.
 
 00:33:26.926 --> 00:33:28.268
 Fortunately, they did at Yorktown.
 
 00:33:28.307 --> 00:33:29.347
 That Yorktown campaign,
 
 00:33:29.367 --> 00:33:30.308
 they did pull it off.
 
 00:33:31.209 --> 00:33:32.049
 So I just thought it was such an
 
 00:33:32.089 --> 00:33:33.750
 interesting evolution how these nations
 
 00:33:33.790 --> 00:33:35.590
 really did manage to come together by
 
 00:33:37.518 --> 00:33:39.078
 One of the chapters you have in your
 
 00:33:39.118 --> 00:33:41.340
 book is something that we've been talking
 
 00:33:41.361 --> 00:33:43.382
 a lot about it at Revolution Two-Fifty,
 
 00:33:43.402 --> 00:33:43.821
 of course,
 
 00:33:43.862 --> 00:33:47.324
 which is the relationship of the
 
 00:33:47.364 --> 00:33:48.285
 Haudenosaunee,
 
 00:33:48.345 --> 00:33:52.708
 the Oneida people to the history of the
 
 00:33:52.748 --> 00:33:53.228
 revolution.
 
 00:33:53.387 --> 00:33:56.029
 Now, in seventeen seventy five,
 
 00:33:56.490 --> 00:33:58.912
 Massachusetts had the Stockbridge people
 
 00:33:59.636 --> 00:34:01.558
 and the western borders of Massachusetts
 
 00:34:01.798 --> 00:34:04.682
 act as emissaries between the Provincial
 
 00:34:04.721 --> 00:34:07.865
 Congress and the Haudenosaunee as an
 
 00:34:07.924 --> 00:34:11.168
 attempt to bring them over onto the side
 
 00:34:11.228 --> 00:34:14.771
 of the American cause and with indifferent
 
 00:34:14.831 --> 00:34:17.173
 success as you'd expect with many nations.
 
 00:34:17.753 --> 00:34:19.596
 Tell me about your exploration of that
 
 00:34:19.635 --> 00:34:20.317
 part of the story.
 
 00:34:21.146 --> 00:34:22.806
 sure yeah i i got up to i
 
 00:34:22.847 --> 00:34:26.108
 went up to oneida new york um to
 
 00:34:26.148 --> 00:34:29.708
 the the oneida indian nation there has a
 
 00:34:29.768 --> 00:34:32.329
 chagowi cultural center which is very well
 
 00:34:32.389 --> 00:34:35.130
 done and definitely recommend a visit if
 
 00:34:35.731 --> 00:34:37.371
 for any listeners who are who are up
 
 00:34:37.411 --> 00:34:39.452
 in that way um and which their spring
 
 00:34:39.492 --> 00:34:40.552
 festival which was
 
 00:34:41.251 --> 00:34:42.833
 which was also great to see and got
 
 00:34:42.873 --> 00:34:44.375
 to talk to some of the staff there
 
 00:34:44.414 --> 00:34:45.556
 at the center who told me about the
 
 00:34:45.617 --> 00:34:47.478
 history of the Oneida.
 
 00:34:47.818 --> 00:34:50.942
 They did support the American cause.
 
 00:34:50.961 --> 00:34:51.882
 They were the first allies,
 
 00:34:51.922 --> 00:34:53.463
 the first one before all these European
 
 00:34:53.503 --> 00:34:55.186
 powers that I was talking about officially
 
 00:34:55.206 --> 00:34:57.307
 joined in the war,
 
 00:34:57.447 --> 00:34:59.150
 the Oneida had chosen to do so.
 
 00:35:00.871 --> 00:35:03.594
 They served in many different functions as
 
 00:35:03.673 --> 00:35:05.014
 warriors and scouts,
 
 00:35:05.335 --> 00:35:06.876
 particularly in the Saratoga campaign.
 
 00:35:07.317 --> 00:35:09.277
 They were part of the very difficult
 
 00:35:09.577 --> 00:35:11.940
 defeat at the Battle of Oriskany,
 
 00:35:12.059 --> 00:35:15.202
 where Patriot militia and Oneidas suffered
 
 00:35:16.943 --> 00:35:17.724
 really heavy losses.
 
 00:35:17.744 --> 00:35:19.425
 It was one of the bloodier battles per
 
 00:35:19.465 --> 00:35:21.067
 capita of the revolution.
 
 00:35:21.106 --> 00:35:24.429
 But they played a key role in stopping
 
 00:35:24.449 --> 00:35:27.452
 the British advance coming from the West
 
 00:35:27.532 --> 00:35:28.893
 in the Saratoga campaign.
 
 00:35:30.134 --> 00:35:32.615
 had a hundred and fifty warriors at
 
 00:35:33.916 --> 00:35:35.378
 Saratoga between Oneida and other
 
 00:35:35.418 --> 00:35:37.358
 Haudenosaunee tribes and were there
 
 00:35:37.398 --> 00:35:40.481
 throughout or supported Lafayette,
 
 00:35:40.501 --> 00:35:42.402
 a key part of a battle that Lafayette
 
 00:35:42.461 --> 00:35:45.324
 got himself mixed up in after Valley Forge
 
 00:35:45.804 --> 00:35:48.106
 and helped save him, quite frankly.
 
 00:35:48.146 --> 00:35:50.987
 And even Oneida were present at the Battle
 
 00:35:51.007 --> 00:35:51.527
 of Yorktown.
 
 00:35:51.568 --> 00:35:53.949
 So they had a presence throughout the war
 
 00:35:54.150 --> 00:35:57.311
 and just a great source of support for
 
 00:35:57.331 --> 00:35:58.152
 the Continental Army.
 
 00:35:59.338 --> 00:36:03.981
 It's been great following the stories of
 
 00:36:04.021 --> 00:36:06.722
 these indigenous peoples and the various
 
 00:36:06.782 --> 00:36:08.583
 roles they played throughout.
 
 00:36:08.643 --> 00:36:09.063
 Obviously,
 
 00:36:09.083 --> 00:36:11.885
 the Stockbridge people lose heavily in
 
 00:36:12.005 --> 00:36:15.286
 some of the battles post-New York,
 
 00:36:16.387 --> 00:36:18.248
 but they were at Bunker Hill,
 
 00:36:18.969 --> 00:36:20.869
 as were some of the Mohegan people.
 
 00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:24.050
 They lost their first warrior at the
 
 00:36:24.092 --> 00:36:26.813
 Battle of Bunker Hill, Samuel Ashbow.
 
 00:36:27.449 --> 00:36:28.248
 who was killed there.
 
 00:36:28.369 --> 00:36:30.750
 And it's a strong reminder that these
 
 00:36:31.550 --> 00:36:35.192
 independent nations living side by side
 
 00:36:35.231 --> 00:36:37.432
 with us were there when we needed them.
 
 00:36:38.612 --> 00:36:39.313
 Absolutely.
 
 00:36:39.452 --> 00:36:40.092
 Absolutely.
 
 00:36:40.273 --> 00:36:43.275
 And weren't always remembered afterwards.
 
 00:36:44.215 --> 00:36:44.875
 It's a sad,
 
 00:36:44.934 --> 00:36:46.856
 kind of sad coda to the story that
 
 00:36:47.856 --> 00:36:49.556
 even though a treaty was signed with the
 
 00:36:49.617 --> 00:36:50.416
 federal government,
 
 00:36:51.456 --> 00:36:53.757
 some settlers in New York State didn't
 
 00:36:53.797 --> 00:36:55.478
 respect that and the Oneida lost
 
 00:36:55.978 --> 00:36:58.141
 a great deal of the land they had
 
 00:36:58.221 --> 00:37:00.702
 in upstate New York and obligations
 
 00:37:01.282 --> 00:37:01.983
 weren't remembered.
 
 00:37:02.625 --> 00:37:04.485
 I mentioned that Lafayette had a
 
 00:37:04.525 --> 00:37:08.108
 connection to the Oneida and they fought
 
 00:37:08.148 --> 00:37:09.349
 with him, as I said,
 
 00:37:09.409 --> 00:37:12.472
 in Pennsylvania and also he went up there
 
 00:37:13.313 --> 00:37:14.994
 to New York and later when he was
 
 00:37:15.235 --> 00:37:16.076
 an older man and
 
 00:37:16.615 --> 00:37:17.476
 visiting the U.S.
 
 00:37:17.516 --> 00:37:19.117
 on this great tour he did in eighteen,
 
 00:37:19.137 --> 00:37:20.117
 twenty four and twenty five.
 
 00:37:20.356 --> 00:37:21.637
 He went up to that area.
 
 00:37:21.657 --> 00:37:22.737
 He was shocked that he didn't see any
 
 00:37:22.777 --> 00:37:23.318
 one either there.
 
 00:37:23.378 --> 00:37:24.699
 And the townspeople kind of didn't know
 
 00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:25.759
 what he was talking about when he was
 
 00:37:25.998 --> 00:37:27.840
 when he was asking where we're kind of
 
 00:37:27.860 --> 00:37:28.760
 where his brothers were.
 
 00:37:30.121 --> 00:37:31.400
 So it was forgotten.
 
 00:37:31.541 --> 00:37:34.282
 It was that their story was forgotten all
 
 00:37:34.302 --> 00:37:34.742
 too quickly.
 
 00:37:34.762 --> 00:37:37.103
 And I'm glad that the the nation on
 
 00:37:37.403 --> 00:37:39.423
 the nation is preserving that story very
 
 00:37:39.463 --> 00:37:41.125
 well up there and also
 
 00:37:41.565 --> 00:37:42.166
 in D.C.
 
 00:37:42.246 --> 00:37:43.648
 at the National Museum of the American
 
 00:37:43.728 --> 00:37:43.989
 Indian.
 
 00:37:44.009 --> 00:37:45.231
 There's a great display and in
 
 00:37:45.251 --> 00:37:47.072
 Philadelphia at the American Revolution
 
 00:37:47.112 --> 00:37:47.454
 Museum.
 
 00:37:47.514 --> 00:37:49.416
 So there's certainly places where you can
 
 00:37:49.456 --> 00:37:51.960
 still see and have their contributions be
 
 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:52.360
 remembered.
 
 00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:55.101
 yeah and i think it's a great reminder
 
 00:37:55.141 --> 00:37:56.862
 you know so i you know let me
 
 00:37:56.961 --> 00:37:59.722
 ask you about this the i find uh
 
 00:37:59.782 --> 00:38:02.244
 great personal value in being able to
 
 00:38:02.304 --> 00:38:04.445
 stand in places where history happened
 
 00:38:04.905 --> 00:38:07.746
 obviously you feel the same uh how do
 
 00:38:07.766 --> 00:38:09.967
 you encourage your friends and neighbors
 
 00:38:10.148 --> 00:38:13.250
 and colleagues uh to to get out on
 
 00:38:13.269 --> 00:38:15.451
 the road and and visit these places
 
 00:38:16.351 --> 00:38:18.213
 Yeah, for me, it's such,
 
 00:38:18.373 --> 00:38:20.974
 it's just the best way for these stories
 
 00:38:21.014 --> 00:38:23.356
 to come alive is to, I mean,
 
 00:38:23.376 --> 00:38:24.918
 there's something about just standing in
 
 00:38:24.938 --> 00:38:26.619
 the place and knowing like, okay,
 
 00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:28.780
 Washington was here or Lafayette was here
 
 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.222
 or Bernardo de Galvez was here.
 
 00:38:30.262 --> 00:38:31.262
 Like this is literally,
 
 00:38:31.302 --> 00:38:33.384
 you're literally seeing like the same kind
 
 00:38:33.443 --> 00:38:33.503
 of,
 
 00:38:33.804 --> 00:38:36.126
 the same view looking out that they would
 
 00:38:36.146 --> 00:38:36.266
 have.
 
 00:38:36.306 --> 00:38:36.547
 Of course,
 
 00:38:36.567 --> 00:38:38.807
 maybe the landscapes has changed in some
 
 00:38:38.849 --> 00:38:40.389
 respects, but you're right there.
 
 00:38:40.489 --> 00:38:41.951
 And then when you go to places with
 
 00:38:41.990 --> 00:38:42.590
 reenactors,
 
 00:38:42.610 --> 00:38:44.072
 that's how I fell in love with history,
 
 00:38:44.092 --> 00:38:44.552
 right?
 
 00:38:44.773 --> 00:38:46.014
 was going to places like Colonial
 
 00:38:46.034 --> 00:38:46.655
 Williamsburg.
 
 00:38:46.815 --> 00:38:48.918
 And I was really happy to be able
 
 00:38:48.938 --> 00:38:51.302
 to talk to several reenactors at different
 
 00:38:51.322 --> 00:38:52.063
 places, too.
 
 00:38:53.804 --> 00:38:54.105
 One of them,
 
 00:38:54.184 --> 00:38:55.887
 Matt Cagle at Fort Ticonderoga,
 
 00:38:55.907 --> 00:38:56.969
 just talked about... I know Matt well.
 
 00:38:57.690 --> 00:38:59.112
 He's been a guest on the podcast.
 
 00:38:59.152 --> 00:39:00.773
 Oh, well, I mean, yeah, yeah.
 
 00:39:01.153 --> 00:39:01.835
 And just a...
 
 00:39:03.577 --> 00:39:06.039
 a brilliant historian and also read actor
 
 00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:08.302
 who, who, who told me that his,
 
 00:39:08.742 --> 00:39:11.184
 his uniform handmade that every, every,
 
 00:39:11.344 --> 00:39:12.385
 every stitch of it was authentic.
 
 00:39:12.405 --> 00:39:13.547
 He said, it's like an essay,
 
 00:39:14.268 --> 00:39:15.228
 an essay in history.
 
 00:39:15.289 --> 00:39:15.809
 So you can read,
 
 00:39:15.849 --> 00:39:16.889
 you can read about this in the books,
 
 00:39:16.929 --> 00:39:18.291
 but you can also see something that is
 
 00:39:18.592 --> 00:39:20.414
 exactly what you would have seen and
 
 00:39:20.753 --> 00:39:23.096
 understand how it was made and why it
 
 00:39:23.115 --> 00:39:23.896
 was made that way.
 
 00:39:23.996 --> 00:39:26.358
 So there is that, that,
 
 00:39:27.019 --> 00:39:28.960
 there there's some you know seeing some
 
 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:30.481
 tangible things like that i think more
 
 00:39:30.641 --> 00:39:32.221
 more so than words on the page can
 
 00:39:32.621 --> 00:39:35.202
 it just uh going there you can connect
 
 00:39:35.742 --> 00:39:37.101
 with these historical events in an
 
 00:39:37.121 --> 00:39:39.242
 emotional way so it's like that for me
 
 00:39:39.322 --> 00:39:40.983
 and i try to convince people or force
 
 00:39:41.003 --> 00:39:43.003
 people just drag them out there and and
 
 00:39:43.063 --> 00:39:44.684
 see if it it takes for themselves as
 
 00:39:44.744 --> 00:39:46.764
 well but uh i think it's a really
 
 00:39:46.804 --> 00:39:49.304
 special way to learn about history all
 
 00:39:49.445 --> 00:39:51.385
 right so so after station what was your
 
 00:39:51.425 --> 00:39:52.965
 favorite spot in this whole journey
 
 00:39:54.184 --> 00:39:54.945
 Oh, yes,
 
 00:39:55.365 --> 00:39:56.726
 Stacia has to be right up there.
 
 00:39:56.786 --> 00:39:57.887
 So my wife and I got to go
 
 00:39:57.927 --> 00:39:59.268
 there and it's just beautiful, you know,
 
 00:39:59.969 --> 00:40:01.309
 obviously being in the Caribbean.
 
 00:40:01.429 --> 00:40:03.510
 And that's such a great question and a
 
 00:40:03.572 --> 00:40:05.293
 hard question because there were so many,
 
 00:40:06.914 --> 00:40:07.494
 so many great places.
 
 00:40:07.514 --> 00:40:09.615
 I mean, I think our opening
 
 00:40:10.476 --> 00:40:11.456
 in Spain too,
 
 00:40:12.376 --> 00:40:14.956
 where we got to see where Bernardo de
 
 00:40:14.976 --> 00:40:15.918
 Galvez came from,
 
 00:40:15.938 --> 00:40:19.539
 but just the enthusiasm and joy and energy
 
 00:40:19.579 --> 00:40:22.940
 that this town has in putting this
 
 00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:26.061
 festival on in his honor on July fourth.
 
 00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:27.983
 i think that was just a lot of
 
 00:40:28.023 --> 00:40:30.146
 fun too and the spanish people are just
 
 00:40:30.547 --> 00:40:32.110
 great people and we're just hanging back
 
 00:40:32.170 --> 00:40:34.693
 afterwards with with a glass of wine and
 
 00:40:34.713 --> 00:40:36.197
 they're just they're just joking about
 
 00:40:36.237 --> 00:40:38.000
 everything so that was just a really fun
 
 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:40.143
 experience too but it wasn't just one
 
 00:40:40.182 --> 00:40:41.105
 glass of wine though
 
 00:40:43.081 --> 00:40:43.842
 Maybe in plural.
 
 00:40:43.862 --> 00:40:45.422
 There might have been glasses of wine
 
 00:40:45.523 --> 00:40:46.143
 involved.
 
 00:40:47.304 --> 00:40:48.105
 It's hard to say.
 
 00:40:49.445 --> 00:40:50.326
 But so many places.
 
 00:40:51.445 --> 00:40:53.106
 I really enjoyed the trip because it was
 
 00:40:53.126 --> 00:40:55.367
 kind of like being a detective and saying,
 
 00:40:55.387 --> 00:40:55.648
 oh, wow,
 
 00:40:55.688 --> 00:40:57.668
 this happened here and here now I can
 
 00:40:57.688 --> 00:40:58.289
 find the spot.
 
 00:40:59.050 --> 00:40:59.329
 Again,
 
 00:40:59.349 --> 00:41:01.990
 some of these battles are just a little
 
 00:41:02.070 --> 00:41:02.771
 under the radar.
 
 00:41:02.831 --> 00:41:07.693
 They're not as clear as going to Lexington
 
 00:41:07.733 --> 00:41:10.394
 and Concord or Valley Forge where it's
 
 00:41:10.494 --> 00:41:11.715
 also very moving to go there,
 
 00:41:11.755 --> 00:41:12.036
 but it's
 
 00:41:12.762 --> 00:41:14.204
 It's not that hard to find the places.
 
 00:41:14.244 --> 00:41:14.824
 In some cases,
 
 00:41:14.844 --> 00:41:16.487
 you really have to get your GPS out
 
 00:41:16.507 --> 00:41:17.047
 and figure out, okay,
 
 00:41:17.067 --> 00:41:18.208
 where did this battle happen?
 
 00:41:19.690 --> 00:41:22.333
 So that was just a fun thing for
 
 00:41:22.373 --> 00:41:23.514
 me.
 
 00:41:23.554 --> 00:41:25.295
 So, of course, I have to ask then,
 
 00:41:25.516 --> 00:41:26.235
 what's next?
 
 00:41:27.657 --> 00:41:28.137
 Oh, boy.
 
 00:41:28.177 --> 00:41:29.980
 I'm toying around with a couple of ideas,
 
 00:41:30.019 --> 00:41:32.501
 but nothing ready for prime time yet.
 
 00:41:33.663 --> 00:41:35.224
 Maybe we'll be back sometime.
 
 00:41:35.733 --> 00:41:36.193
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:41:36.233 --> 00:41:37.695
 We'll definitely have to have you back.
 
 00:41:37.894 --> 00:41:39.054
 I love what you're doing.
 
 00:41:39.094 --> 00:41:40.914
 I love the fact you involve your family.
 
 00:41:41.355 --> 00:41:43.215
 And I love the fact you encourage others
 
 00:41:43.255 --> 00:41:44.735
 to go to all these places.
 
 00:41:44.815 --> 00:41:46.257
 It's really important.
 
 00:41:46.277 --> 00:41:47.896
 It's important for us to understand.
 
 00:41:47.936 --> 00:41:49.777
 It's also important for those communities
 
 00:41:49.818 --> 00:41:52.858
 to recognize they have a tie to a
 
 00:41:52.938 --> 00:41:54.039
 much larger story.
 
 00:41:54.099 --> 00:41:55.858
 So thanks very much, Derek.
 
 00:41:55.878 --> 00:41:57.298
 This has been a great conversation.
 
 00:41:57.338 --> 00:41:58.619
 And I love your book.
 
 00:41:58.659 --> 00:41:59.139
 Absolutely.
 
 00:42:00.014 --> 00:42:00.675
 Well, thanks so much.
 
 00:42:00.715 --> 00:42:02.275
 I appreciate you having me on here.
 
 00:42:02.295 --> 00:42:03.737
 Yeah, enjoyed talking with you.
 
 00:42:03.777 --> 00:42:04.137
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:42:04.197 --> 00:42:04.699
 So, you know,
 
 00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:08.882
 when we started this back in during COVID,
 
 00:42:08.963 --> 00:42:10.224
 it was a twenty twenty project.
 
 00:42:11.197 --> 00:42:13.637
 We thought that we'd produce a podcast
 
 00:42:13.657 --> 00:42:15.157
 that'd be listened to by a bunch of
 
 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:16.518
 friends and neighbors,
 
 00:42:16.838 --> 00:42:18.179
 mostly here in Massachusetts,
 
 00:42:18.219 --> 00:42:21.500
 but we actually do have listeners from all
 
 00:42:21.559 --> 00:42:22.159
 over the world.
 
 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:24.280
 And we like to thank some every week.
 
 00:42:24.681 --> 00:42:26.222
 So this week,
 
 00:42:26.461 --> 00:42:28.902
 I would like to thank from the United
 
 00:42:28.943 --> 00:42:30.382
 States, Boston,
 
 00:42:30.422 --> 00:42:31.663
 New Bedford and Gloucester in
 
 00:42:31.702 --> 00:42:33.543
 Massachusetts, Providence, Rhode Island,
 
 00:42:34.063 --> 00:42:36.804
 Omaha, Nebraska, San Diego, California,
 
 00:42:37.577 --> 00:42:39.559
 and Sacramento as well, Charlotte,
 
 00:42:39.619 --> 00:42:41.360
 North Carolina, Denver, Colorado,
 
 00:42:41.521 --> 00:42:42.882
 Albuquerque, New Mexico,
 
 00:42:43.422 --> 00:42:45.043
 and of course our friends in Yorktown,
 
 00:42:45.063 --> 00:42:45.583
 Virginia.
 
 00:42:46.585 --> 00:42:48.126
 And from across the seas,
 
 00:42:48.365 --> 00:42:49.766
 we've got the tall ships in town,
 
 00:42:49.827 --> 00:42:51.809
 so it's all international all the time
 
 00:42:51.869 --> 00:42:52.068
 here.
 
 00:42:53.030 --> 00:42:54.510
 We'd like to thank our friends in
 
 00:42:54.570 --> 00:42:59.414
 Garching, Germany, in Bavaria, in Glasgow,
 
 00:42:59.534 --> 00:43:01.615
 Fredericksburg, Denmark, Montreal,
 
 00:43:01.655 --> 00:43:02.295
 and Canada.
 
 00:43:02.577 --> 00:43:04.197
 We didn't even talk about the Canadian
 
 00:43:04.237 --> 00:43:04.677
 campaign.
 
 00:43:04.697 --> 00:43:05.559
 You had some great
 
 00:43:07.101 --> 00:43:08.103
 You've got to read the book.
 
 00:43:08.163 --> 00:43:10.724
 There's some great material on the poor
 
 00:43:10.824 --> 00:43:14.887
 Americans in Canada, Barcelona in Spain,
 
 00:43:14.927 --> 00:43:16.289
 in Cape Town, South Africa,
 
 00:43:17.730 --> 00:43:19.391
 and all places between and beyond.
 
 00:43:19.431 --> 00:43:20.231
 Thanks very much,
 
 00:43:20.552 --> 00:43:21.952
 and we'll see you all next week.
 
 00:43:48.603 --> 00:43:49.771
 Hey, great stuff, Derek.
 
 00:43:49.791 --> 00:43:50.635
 Thanks very much.
 
 00:43:51.318 --> 00:43:52.947
 Oh, yeah, that was a great discussion.
 
 00:43:52.987 --> 00:43:53.329
 Thank you.