Securing Victory, 1781 - 1783 with Dr. Craig Bruce Smith

 Yorktown was not the end!  Though Cornwallis surrendered, the British still held New York, Charleston, and Savannah, and the Americans did not control the western frontier.  Would 1782 bring a renewed British campaign to secure the American colonies?  Could the United States win its independence?   Military historian Craig Bruce Smith, professor of history at National Defense University, joins us to talk about his new book, Securing Victory, 1781-1783, part of The U.S. Army Campaigns of the Revolutionary War series, which looks at this critical, but often under-reported period, when the United States actually able to secure its independence,  control of the territory extending to the Mississippi River, and the hard-won gains of the war. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone,
 
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 and welcome to the Revolution two fifty
 
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 podcast.
 
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 I'm Bob Allison.
 
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 I'm co-chair of Rev two fifty.
 
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 We're a consortium of about seventy five
 
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 organizations in Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of American independence.
 
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 And our guest today is Craig Bruce Smith.
 
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 Craig Smith is a professor of history at
 
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 the Advanced Warfighting School at the
 
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 National Defense University.
 
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 He received his PhD from Brandeis
 
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 University.
 
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 And he has written a number of really
 
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 interesting books.
 
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 He wrote American Honor about the creation
 
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 of America,
 
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 the nation's ideals during the
 
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 Revolutionary War.
 
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 He's written about George Washington.
 
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 And his new book is called Securing
 
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 Victory,
 
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 thanks so much for joining us craig oh
 
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 thanks so much for having me again i
 
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 just have to work in my little disclaimer
 
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 that everything i say are my views alone
 
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 and certainly don't represent those of
 
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 henry knox um okay so pleasure to be
 
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 here great for you and this is really
 
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 a critical period between yorktown and the
 
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 peace treaty and so i have a couple
 
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 of questions there's one
 
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 Why do we usually gloss over it since
 
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 so much is happening?
 
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 And B,
 
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 why are you now telling this story in
 
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 such a good way?
 
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 Sure.
 
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 That's the first pretty easy question.
 
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 So why is it glossed over?
 
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 That one's a little bit more difficult.
 
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 I think a lot of it is that
 
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 Yorktown looms so large that if you ask
 
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 the average person,
 
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 even the average non-specialist
 
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 historian and you ask them what happened
 
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 after Yorktown, it'll be a lot of, huh?
 
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 The idea is that Yorktown is that last
 
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 pivotal battle that leads to the peace
 
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 treaty, which is all true,
 
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 but you still have a year and a
 
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 half of the war and there is active
 
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 fighting.
 
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 The difference is why it's largely
 
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 forgotten is you don't have any big
 
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 battles.
 
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 You've got
 
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 hundreds of smaller battles, skirmishes,
 
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 things of that sort.
 
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 When you think about there's I think it's
 
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 twenty nine thousand troops are involved
 
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 in Yorktown.
 
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 Some of these smaller skirmishes battles
 
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 could have as few as tens of soldiers
 
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 involved.
 
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 So it's really easy to gloss over,
 
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 especially for for military historians who
 
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 want the big sort of itch battles and
 
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 epic stories.
 
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 It just isn't there.
 
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 So why did I write this?
 
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 Well, the U.S.
 
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 Army Center for Military History is doing
 
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 a two hundred fiftieth anniversary series.
 
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 You may know this,
 
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 but it's the two hundred fiftieth
 
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 anniversary.
 
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 That's right.
 
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 So they put together basically a military
 
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 history of the American Revolution from
 
 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:56.961
 Lexington and Concord through I've got the
 
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 final book.
 
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 And the idea was to focus purely on
 
 00:03:02.497 --> 00:03:05.300
 the military angle,
 
 00:03:05.341 --> 00:03:07.864
 focus on large campaigns and operations.
 
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 And even within there,
 
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 this book is sort of the outlier because
 
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 right up front, you know,
 
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 I say this really isn't a book about
 
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 battle.
 
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 It's about the military doing so many
 
 00:03:20.536 --> 00:03:21.877
 other things and the importance of the
 
 00:03:21.917 --> 00:03:23.638
 military and the impact of the military in
 
 00:03:23.717 --> 00:03:26.180
 so many other ways than beyond just on
 
 00:03:26.219 --> 00:03:26.900
 the battlefield.
 
 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:30.643
 So this was something they had a list
 
 00:03:30.663 --> 00:03:32.443
 that could have written any number of
 
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 things.
 
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 This is the one I chose.
 
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 This was the one they wanted me to
 
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 do.
 
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 It's largely if you think about
 
 00:03:40.128 --> 00:03:42.251
 scholarship on post Yorktown,
 
 00:03:42.770 --> 00:03:43.912
 to my knowledge,
 
 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:47.062
 there are really only three works that
 
 00:03:47.103 --> 00:03:47.925
 focus on that.
 
 00:03:48.686 --> 00:03:50.008
 There's Thomas Fleming's,
 
 00:03:51.250 --> 00:03:52.512
 was it Perils of Peace?
 
 00:03:52.872 --> 00:03:56.016
 There's Glickstein's after Yorktown and
 
 00:03:56.377 --> 00:03:58.941
 another local professor, William Fowler's.
 
 00:04:00.402 --> 00:04:02.585
 excuse me American crisis right those are
 
 00:04:02.625 --> 00:04:05.288
 really the only three works and some of
 
 00:04:05.328 --> 00:04:09.532
 those are uh multiple decades old by now
 
 00:04:09.611 --> 00:04:12.354
 yeah and so this book is very much
 
 00:04:12.394 --> 00:04:15.037
 written for an average reader for a
 
 00:04:15.217 --> 00:04:18.579
 military officer uh for someone that needs
 
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 you know
 
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 The quick hits, the key takeaways.
 
 00:04:26.028 --> 00:04:27.649
 So that was really the focus,
 
 00:04:27.689 --> 00:04:30.110
 the idea that military officers could
 
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 learn from this.
 
 00:04:31.071 --> 00:04:31.291
 And again,
 
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 it's not just for a military officer,
 
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 but that was a lot of the thinking.
 
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 And, you know,
 
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 you say the series is really designed to
 
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 be about the military,
 
 00:04:40.944 --> 00:04:43.644
 but inevitably and particularly in this
 
 00:04:43.685 --> 00:04:44.045
 period,
 
 00:04:44.064 --> 00:04:45.785
 there's a tremendous amount of politics in
 
 00:04:45.824 --> 00:04:46.144
 this,
 
 00:04:46.584 --> 00:04:49.185
 both between the United States and the
 
 00:04:49.225 --> 00:04:51.026
 British and the United States,
 
 00:04:51.047 --> 00:04:51.807
 the British and the French,
 
 00:04:52.086 --> 00:04:54.247
 but also among the officer corps itself
 
 00:04:54.468 --> 00:04:56.949
 and among these various American
 
 00:04:57.009 --> 00:04:59.750
 contingent constituencies who are still
 
 00:04:59.810 --> 00:05:01.350
 fighting it out in places like North
 
 00:05:01.370 --> 00:05:03.370
 Carolina and the Ohio River Valley.
 
 00:05:04.190 --> 00:05:08.334
 And you do have these really intense and
 
 00:05:08.434 --> 00:05:11.055
 bloody campaigns happening on a smaller
 
 00:05:11.136 --> 00:05:13.338
 scale than Yorktown or Saratoga.
 
 00:05:13.958 --> 00:05:16.439
 But it's a level of violence, I think,
 
 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.302
 that we often overlook that's happening
 
 00:05:19.382 --> 00:05:19.702
 here.
 
 00:05:20.083 --> 00:05:22.125
 But again, politics is essential to this.
 
 00:05:22.144 --> 00:05:23.865
 And I suppose to be a really successful
 
 00:05:23.925 --> 00:05:24.966
 military officer,
 
 00:05:24.987 --> 00:05:28.149
 you have to understand how to get along,
 
 00:05:28.189 --> 00:05:29.389
 how to work with other people,
 
 00:05:29.430 --> 00:05:30.550
 which is a political thing.
 
 00:05:31.112 --> 00:05:33.194
 Yeah, it's I argue that this book,
 
 00:05:33.353 --> 00:05:35.716
 this book was basically about civil
 
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 relations.
 
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 Yeah.
 
 00:05:37.516 --> 00:05:40.600
 And very much how military interacts with
 
 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:41.220
 politicians,
 
 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:42.600
 how politicians interact with the
 
 00:05:42.620 --> 00:05:42.942
 military,
 
 00:05:42.982 --> 00:05:46.084
 but also how wider society interacts with
 
 00:05:46.103 --> 00:05:46.163
 it.
 
 00:05:46.644 --> 00:05:48.125
 So, again,
 
 00:05:48.305 --> 00:05:50.588
 we're all gearing up for the two fiftieth
 
 00:05:50.627 --> 00:05:51.588
 of the Fourth of July,
 
 00:05:51.709 --> 00:05:52.970
 the Declaration of Independence,
 
 00:05:53.009 --> 00:05:53.649
 in my opinion,
 
 00:05:53.670 --> 00:05:55.432
 is the most important document ever
 
 00:05:55.492 --> 00:05:55.851
 written.
 
 00:05:56.291 --> 00:05:56.793
 However,
 
 00:05:57.213 --> 00:05:58.975
 I would argue that it's seventeen eighty
 
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 three that is really
 
 00:06:02.365 --> 00:06:04.646
 is the foundation that really sets up our
 
 00:06:04.706 --> 00:06:06.947
 nation specifically for the military.
 
 00:06:07.468 --> 00:06:09.769
 So that's why I wanted to I'm not
 
 00:06:09.809 --> 00:06:11.269
 trying to take away anything from
 
 00:06:11.310 --> 00:06:12.310
 seventeen seventy six.
 
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 It deserves its musicals.
 
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 It's seventeen eighty three is a crucial
 
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 but forgotten year because like you say,
 
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 it is how how does Congress interact with
 
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 the military?
 
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 What role does a general have with
 
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 Congress?
 
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 And then when you get into smaller
 
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 militias or tensions between officers,
 
 00:06:30.456 --> 00:06:33.718
 where you have officers trying to unseat
 
 00:06:33.838 --> 00:06:34.319
 one another,
 
 00:06:34.379 --> 00:06:36.560
 take their position or potentially even
 
 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:38.901
 launch a coup because the paycheck hasn't
 
 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:39.300
 come in.
 
 00:06:40.601 --> 00:06:43.163
 These are serious topics that could have
 
 00:06:43.302 --> 00:06:46.403
 undone the revolution more so than any
 
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 loss at one particular battle.
 
 00:06:48.723 --> 00:06:49.423
 Yeah.
 
 00:06:49.442 --> 00:06:51.805
 You mentioned in the book, too, you know,
 
 00:06:51.884 --> 00:06:52.545
 Charleston,
 
 00:06:52.584 --> 00:06:54.086
 it takes about four and a half months
 
 00:06:54.125 --> 00:06:55.886
 for the British to leave.
 
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 And there are negotiations between Leslie,
 
 00:06:58.327 --> 00:06:59.827
 the British commander, and Green,
 
 00:06:59.867 --> 00:07:02.430
 the American commander, over this.
 
 00:07:02.509 --> 00:07:04.230
 And then almost immediately,
 
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 once the British are gone, we think, well,
 
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 why do we need the Continental Army
 
 00:07:06.711 --> 00:07:07.132
 anymore?
 
 00:07:07.151 --> 00:07:07.492
 Yes.
 
 00:07:07.512 --> 00:07:09.593
 So what are the consequences of that?
 
 00:07:09.833 --> 00:07:11.293
 Yeah, this is huge.
 
 00:07:11.314 --> 00:07:12.293
 Because if you think about it,
 
 00:07:13.035 --> 00:07:15.036
 there are a few places after Yorktown,
 
 00:07:15.055 --> 00:07:15.495
 there's still
 
 00:07:16.336 --> 00:07:18.362
 places that are under British occupation.
 
 00:07:18.502 --> 00:07:20.848
 Obviously, you have some in Wilmington,
 
 00:07:20.869 --> 00:07:22.273
 North Carolina, you have in New York,
 
 00:07:22.293 --> 00:07:23.035
 you have in Charleston,
 
 00:07:23.074 --> 00:07:23.836
 you have in Savannah.
 
 00:07:24.870 --> 00:07:24.930
 Um,
 
 00:07:25.029 --> 00:07:26.752
 and this is often forgotten about that.
 
 00:07:26.812 --> 00:07:27.132
 Yes.
 
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 Corn Wallace's army is, is, you know,
 
 00:07:30.235 --> 00:07:30.656
 prisoner,
 
 00:07:31.336 --> 00:07:33.199
 but there are lots of troops out there
 
 00:07:33.259 --> 00:07:34.920
 and from these fortified positions,
 
 00:07:34.939 --> 00:07:36.661
 they can wreak all sorts of havoc.
 
 00:07:37.903 --> 00:07:39.485
 British Navy's still off the coast.
 
 00:07:40.305 --> 00:07:40.966
 Um,
 
 00:07:41.045 --> 00:07:42.908
 and there's a real fear that if a
 
 00:07:42.968 --> 00:07:45.610
 piece comes and the British still hold
 
 00:07:45.670 --> 00:07:46.471
 these positions.
 
 00:07:47.630 --> 00:07:48.471
 They may keep them.
 
 00:07:48.951 --> 00:07:51.512
 So you could have an idea of United
 
 00:07:51.552 --> 00:07:52.353
 States of America,
 
 00:07:52.413 --> 00:07:54.254
 but British New York or British
 
 00:07:54.293 --> 00:07:54.855
 Charleston.
 
 00:07:54.875 --> 00:07:55.214
 And that's,
 
 00:07:56.495 --> 00:07:58.637
 you already have to explain why that's a
 
 00:07:58.697 --> 00:07:59.016
 problem.
 
 00:07:59.757 --> 00:08:00.377
 The idea is,
 
 00:08:01.458 --> 00:08:02.918
 so the Continental Army is needed for
 
 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:05.180
 these sieges to displace these armies.
 
 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:06.860
 But like you said, in Charleston,
 
 00:08:07.100 --> 00:08:09.021
 it's literally there's a parade one day
 
 00:08:09.081 --> 00:08:10.401
 and the next day it's, ah,
 
 00:08:10.442 --> 00:08:11.603
 this army is expensive.
 
 00:08:11.642 --> 00:08:12.442
 Why do we need them?
 
 00:08:12.463 --> 00:08:13.343
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:08:14.067 --> 00:08:14.708
 Because the idea,
 
 00:08:15.108 --> 00:08:16.709
 as the war comes to a conclusion,
 
 00:08:16.769 --> 00:08:18.170
 it's been long fighting.
 
 00:08:18.209 --> 00:08:19.670
 There's been tension throughout the war
 
 00:08:20.389 --> 00:08:22.130
 between the military and the civilians.
 
 00:08:22.190 --> 00:08:23.951
 The military claims the civilians aren't
 
 00:08:23.992 --> 00:08:25.192
 properly supporting them.
 
 00:08:25.252 --> 00:08:27.233
 They're charging outrageous prices.
 
 00:08:27.572 --> 00:08:28.514
 The civilians claim,
 
 00:08:28.553 --> 00:08:29.533
 why aren't you winning?
 
 00:08:29.553 --> 00:08:32.894
 We only, you know, we're giving you X,
 
 00:08:33.075 --> 00:08:34.135
 Y, Z, and you're not winning.
 
 00:08:34.176 --> 00:08:35.916
 So what good are you?
 
 00:08:35.936 --> 00:08:37.876
 But once Charleston in particular is
 
 00:08:37.937 --> 00:08:38.277
 freed,
 
 00:08:38.596 --> 00:08:41.258
 there's a push within South Carolina and
 
 00:08:41.298 --> 00:08:42.438
 the South War generally that,
 
 00:08:42.938 --> 00:08:44.179
 We can disband the army.
 
 00:08:44.539 --> 00:08:46.240
 The army was always viewed as not
 
 00:08:46.260 --> 00:08:48.722
 necessarily a eternal standing army,
 
 00:08:48.763 --> 00:08:51.144
 but one to achieve this purpose.
 
 00:08:51.184 --> 00:08:53.546
 The purpose has been fulfilled.
 
 00:08:53.985 --> 00:08:55.586
 And this is what starts a lot of
 
 00:08:55.606 --> 00:08:58.269
 the fears of the officer corps of, hey,
 
 00:08:58.328 --> 00:09:00.750
 they could send us home and we haven't
 
 00:09:00.770 --> 00:09:01.370
 been paid.
 
 00:09:01.591 --> 00:09:01.892
 Right.
 
 00:09:01.951 --> 00:09:03.572
 And let alone our pensions.
 
 00:09:04.342 --> 00:09:05.923
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:09:05.943 --> 00:09:06.663
 It's an amazing story.
 
 00:09:06.683 --> 00:09:08.203
 We're talking with Craig Bruce Smith,
 
 00:09:08.244 --> 00:09:12.166
 whose new book is Securing Victory,
 
 00:09:12.725 --> 00:09:14.106
 part of the U.S.
 
 00:09:14.167 --> 00:09:16.947
 Army Center for Military History's study
 
 00:09:17.048 --> 00:09:18.587
 of the American Revolution.
 
 00:09:18.607 --> 00:09:20.389
 He's also written about George Washington
 
 00:09:20.448 --> 00:09:22.929
 and ethical leadership and American honor
 
 00:09:23.009 --> 00:09:23.289
 about
 
 00:09:23.529 --> 00:09:26.032
 uh the creation of these national ideals
 
 00:09:26.812 --> 00:09:29.034
 and this so it's this critical moment and
 
 00:09:29.375 --> 00:09:32.518
 one of the fascinating things is the way
 
 00:09:32.697 --> 00:09:36.880
 the general public didn't really see the
 
 00:09:37.302 --> 00:09:39.464
 soldiers or officers as the heroes who
 
 00:09:39.504 --> 00:09:41.024
 have won the war but see them as
 
 00:09:41.044 --> 00:09:42.225
 an encumbrance and now that they're
 
 00:09:42.245 --> 00:09:44.807
 demanding a pension they think well what
 
 00:09:44.827 --> 00:09:46.208
 are these guys trying to do we've all
 
 00:09:46.229 --> 00:09:47.029
 suffered during the war
 
 00:09:48.624 --> 00:09:48.943
 Yeah.
 
 00:09:48.964 --> 00:09:51.284
 So it really is interesting that you have,
 
 00:09:51.904 --> 00:09:52.125
 again,
 
 00:09:52.145 --> 00:09:53.806
 I don't want to say it's a complete
 
 00:09:53.885 --> 00:09:55.187
 flip flop because there's been this
 
 00:09:55.226 --> 00:09:56.407
 tension throughout the war.
 
 00:09:56.727 --> 00:09:58.207
 But the idea is the war is done.
 
 00:09:58.807 --> 00:10:00.328
 We don't need to support this army
 
 00:10:00.349 --> 00:10:00.849
 anymore.
 
 00:10:01.450 --> 00:10:03.471
 And the soldiers who many of whom have
 
 00:10:03.551 --> 00:10:06.511
 sacrificed their own personal finances.
 
 00:10:07.184 --> 00:10:07.926
 during the war,
 
 00:10:08.265 --> 00:10:11.428
 who have been promised not only salaries,
 
 00:10:11.489 --> 00:10:12.971
 but half pay for life.
 
 00:10:13.730 --> 00:10:15.293
 They're wondering what's going to happen.
 
 00:10:15.373 --> 00:10:16.934
 And this starts all men.
 
 00:10:17.154 --> 00:10:19.277
 This sets up an environment where all
 
 00:10:19.336 --> 00:10:20.697
 sorts of things could go wrong.
 
 00:10:20.778 --> 00:10:21.318
 And obviously,
 
 00:10:21.339 --> 00:10:22.779
 we're building to what is called the
 
 00:10:23.100 --> 00:10:24.201
 Newburgh conspiracy.
 
 00:10:24.621 --> 00:10:26.423
 Although my friend David Head,
 
 00:10:26.443 --> 00:10:27.825
 who wrote a book called The Crisis of
 
 00:10:27.945 --> 00:10:28.125
 Peace,
 
 00:10:28.166 --> 00:10:30.548
 will argue the so-called conspiracy
 
 00:10:31.769 --> 00:10:33.955
 So I think we can leave that open
 
 00:10:33.975 --> 00:10:34.495
 to debate,
 
 00:10:34.917 --> 00:10:37.642
 even though I think it's a lot closer
 
 00:10:37.662 --> 00:10:38.403
 than so-called.
 
 00:10:39.539 --> 00:10:41.841
 think so too yeah um so can you
 
 00:10:41.880 --> 00:10:44.081
 tell us then i mean you do a
 
 00:10:44.121 --> 00:10:46.583
 good job of outlining what happens in the
 
 00:10:46.624 --> 00:10:49.024
 books can you kind of walk us through
 
 00:10:49.044 --> 00:10:51.446
 that all right so we'll give you again
 
 00:10:51.566 --> 00:10:53.986
 it's a a conspiracy by nature is a
 
 00:10:54.006 --> 00:10:55.807
 little secretive so we can't know
 
 00:10:56.427 --> 00:10:59.110
 everything um so what we have is sort
 
 00:10:59.149 --> 00:11:01.410
 of a rough sketch and i can give
 
 00:11:01.431 --> 00:11:03.251
 like sort of the broad outlines basically
 
 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:05.880
 As the war is coming to an end,
 
 00:11:05.941 --> 00:11:07.461
 there are rumors of peace.
 
 00:11:07.601 --> 00:11:08.182
 Obviously,
 
 00:11:08.442 --> 00:11:10.283
 you have peace negotiations have been
 
 00:11:10.323 --> 00:11:12.485
 going on since post Yorktown with
 
 00:11:12.605 --> 00:11:14.586
 Franklin, Adams, Jay.
 
 00:11:16.288 --> 00:11:20.431
 Later, you're going to,
 
 00:11:20.510 --> 00:11:22.251
 I can't even remember his name.
 
 00:11:22.412 --> 00:11:23.192
 Doesn't matter.
 
 00:11:23.592 --> 00:11:25.053
 Lawrence, yeah.
 
 00:11:25.073 --> 00:11:26.595
 Who's going to be traded for Cornwallis.
 
 00:11:26.615 --> 00:11:27.075
 Yeah.
 
 00:11:28.409 --> 00:11:29.230
 So this is going on,
 
 00:11:29.250 --> 00:11:30.371
 and this is against the backdrop,
 
 00:11:30.412 --> 00:11:32.312
 but no one knows exactly when it's going
 
 00:11:32.332 --> 00:11:32.614
 to come.
 
 00:11:32.634 --> 00:11:33.835
 There's pressure from the king.
 
 00:11:33.855 --> 00:11:35.015
 There's pressure from parliament.
 
 00:11:35.235 --> 00:11:37.717
 The British are changing all their sort of
 
 00:11:37.758 --> 00:11:39.198
 members of the negotiating team.
 
 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:43.582
 But the American officers are terrified.
 
 00:11:43.682 --> 00:11:45.664
 What happens if peace comes and these
 
 00:11:45.725 --> 00:11:46.605
 issues haven't been resolved?
 
 00:11:47.961 --> 00:11:49.441
 So oftentimes in the story,
 
 00:11:49.461 --> 00:11:52.101
 this gets blamed purely on the officers.
 
 00:11:52.221 --> 00:11:52.922
 Right.
 
 00:11:53.322 --> 00:11:55.942
 But it also involves politicians behind
 
 00:11:55.962 --> 00:11:58.283
 the scenes who are trying to advance their
 
 00:11:58.423 --> 00:12:00.803
 own political agendas.
 
 00:12:01.423 --> 00:12:04.384
 And the military gets used as willing
 
 00:12:04.424 --> 00:12:06.666
 participants, maybe as puppets.
 
 00:12:06.966 --> 00:12:08.885
 But you have those basically arguments
 
 00:12:09.025 --> 00:12:11.886
 over assumption of national debt.
 
 00:12:12.475 --> 00:12:13.035
 Right.
 
 00:12:13.096 --> 00:12:14.898
 And you have those like Robert Morris and
 
 00:12:14.937 --> 00:12:16.960
 Alexander Hamilton who were in favor of
 
 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:17.080
 it.
 
 00:12:17.100 --> 00:12:17.240
 Well,
 
 00:12:17.259 --> 00:12:19.763
 you have smaller states that are resistant
 
 00:12:19.802 --> 00:12:20.123
 to it.
 
 00:12:20.884 --> 00:12:23.307
 And what happens exactly?
 
 00:12:23.687 --> 00:12:24.447
 It's unclear.
 
 00:12:25.129 --> 00:12:26.190
 But Washington...
 
 00:12:27.543 --> 00:12:28.102
 Knox,
 
 00:12:28.182 --> 00:12:31.303
 Green are aware of discontent in the army.
 
 00:12:31.344 --> 00:12:33.283
 It's not localized, but the army,
 
 00:12:33.583 --> 00:12:34.384
 the main body,
 
 00:12:34.423 --> 00:12:37.184
 the main army under Washington is at
 
 00:12:37.365 --> 00:12:39.465
 Newburgh and New Windsor,
 
 00:12:40.465 --> 00:12:42.765
 sort of up north of Westchester County to
 
 00:12:42.806 --> 00:12:45.225
 keep an eye on the British in New
 
 00:12:45.265 --> 00:12:47.147
 York.
 
 00:12:47.626 --> 00:12:50.947
 And how it exactly starts,
 
 00:12:51.126 --> 00:12:52.807
 it could be politicians are trying to
 
 00:12:52.947 --> 00:12:53.508
 influence
 
 00:12:55.268 --> 00:12:56.708
 military officers saying, hey,
 
 00:12:56.969 --> 00:13:00.830
 we can support your salaries,
 
 00:13:00.850 --> 00:13:01.490
 your pensions,
 
 00:13:01.570 --> 00:13:03.490
 if we get this nationalized debt.
 
 00:13:03.870 --> 00:13:04.331
 So hey,
 
 00:13:04.390 --> 00:13:06.611
 if you could create some sort of threat,
 
 00:13:07.413 --> 00:13:11.254
 that would help us get our agenda through.
 
 00:13:11.514 --> 00:13:12.573
 You have others saying, no,
 
 00:13:12.614 --> 00:13:14.595
 these are military officers that are
 
 00:13:14.634 --> 00:13:16.375
 trying to force the issue.
 
 00:13:16.956 --> 00:13:19.697
 It's probably a mix of the two.
 
 00:13:20.037 --> 00:13:21.918
 Anyway, what happens is a
 
 00:13:23.506 --> 00:13:25.148
 unsigned letter makes its way through the
 
 00:13:25.187 --> 00:13:26.327
 camp in New Windsor,
 
 00:13:27.808 --> 00:13:30.269
 basically accusing Congress of failing to
 
 00:13:30.309 --> 00:13:31.649
 uphold their end of the deal.
 
 00:13:33.730 --> 00:13:36.432
 And it suggests a secret meeting to deal
 
 00:13:36.451 --> 00:13:37.153
 with Congress.
 
 00:13:37.212 --> 00:13:38.273
 Now, behind the scenes,
 
 00:13:38.293 --> 00:13:40.094
 there's all sorts of discussions that
 
 00:13:40.114 --> 00:13:43.455
 involve people as high as Horatio Gates,
 
 00:13:43.955 --> 00:13:44.995
 who's second in command.
 
 00:13:46.596 --> 00:13:48.277
 And basically, it boils down to a couple,
 
 00:13:48.297 --> 00:13:49.096
 could be a few things.
 
 00:13:49.177 --> 00:13:52.018
 Could be threatening some sort of mutiny
 
 00:13:52.057 --> 00:13:53.219
 or action to get
 
 00:13:53.785 --> 00:13:55.528
 Payment could be.
 
 00:13:55.548 --> 00:13:57.830
 There's others that say, no,
 
 00:13:57.870 --> 00:14:00.731
 this is literally threatening to march off
 
 00:14:00.772 --> 00:14:02.394
 past the mountains until they're paid and
 
 00:14:02.433 --> 00:14:03.715
 letting the British march out and do
 
 00:14:03.735 --> 00:14:04.416
 whatever they want.
 
 00:14:04.875 --> 00:14:06.297
 There are others that saying this could be
 
 00:14:06.317 --> 00:14:09.760
 a full on coup where you are taking
 
 00:14:09.880 --> 00:14:12.322
 the Congress at the point of a bayonet.
 
 00:14:12.964 --> 00:14:13.283
 And.
 
 00:14:13.731 --> 00:14:15.653
 There are those who are trying to feel
 
 00:14:15.753 --> 00:14:18.134
 out where Washington stands on this.
 
 00:14:18.173 --> 00:14:20.115
 But Washington ultimately is going to be
 
 00:14:20.154 --> 00:14:21.056
 shocked by this.
 
 00:14:21.596 --> 00:14:23.777
 And it's this handling of events at
 
 00:14:23.836 --> 00:14:25.658
 Newburgh that, in my opinion,
 
 00:14:25.859 --> 00:14:27.558
 saves the American Revolution.
 
 00:14:28.139 --> 00:14:30.860
 Because it could have,
 
 00:14:31.140 --> 00:14:33.562
 let's say the army's mutinies.
 
 00:14:33.602 --> 00:14:34.423
 Let's say it's a coup.
 
 00:14:34.462 --> 00:14:35.823
 Let's say they march out and they no
 
 00:14:35.864 --> 00:14:37.044
 longer defend the people.
 
 00:14:37.565 --> 00:14:40.667
 Or the American Revolution would have been
 
 00:14:40.687 --> 00:14:41.486
 for nothing at that point.
 
 00:14:42.113 --> 00:14:45.434
 whole i all the ideals of it right
 
 00:14:45.715 --> 00:14:48.397
 that's what he says in his in his
 
 00:14:48.876 --> 00:14:50.618
 speech to the officers and he can think
 
 00:14:51.057 --> 00:14:53.299
 this is the way virtually every other
 
 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:55.561
 revolution like there's a struggle like
 
 00:14:55.581 --> 00:14:57.822
 this ends with the military taking power
 
 00:14:57.841 --> 00:15:00.563
 and washington knew that and george iii
 
 00:15:00.604 --> 00:15:03.085
 certainly knew that so you have this
 
 00:15:03.405 --> 00:15:04.046
 really parallel
 
 00:15:05.198 --> 00:15:06.700
 There's still a very real,
 
 00:15:07.100 --> 00:15:09.860
 it's out of living memory, but not far,
 
 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.562
 the English Civil War with Lord Protector
 
 00:15:12.602 --> 00:15:13.342
 Oliver Cromwell.
 
 00:15:13.423 --> 00:15:14.563
 That is in people's minds.
 
 00:15:14.583 --> 00:15:14.764
 Again,
 
 00:15:15.423 --> 00:15:17.125
 all good Anglo-Americans also think
 
 00:15:17.144 --> 00:15:18.245
 they're the heirs to Rome.
 
 00:15:18.345 --> 00:15:21.427
 So Caesar is looming in their mind.
 
 00:15:21.647 --> 00:15:23.687
 And it doesn't, you know,
 
 00:15:23.788 --> 00:15:25.769
 it certainly makes things poetic that the
 
 00:15:25.808 --> 00:15:27.669
 meeting is on the Ides of March.
 
 00:15:28.452 --> 00:15:29.774
 Right.
 
 00:15:29.794 --> 00:15:29.894
 Right.
 
 00:15:29.914 --> 00:15:30.054
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:30.075 --> 00:15:31.056
 So basically,
 
 00:15:31.115 --> 00:15:33.879
 Washington is going to trap everyone in
 
 00:15:33.940 --> 00:15:36.663
 some procedure showing that he is quite
 
 00:15:36.702 --> 00:15:39.105
 the political general in that he he
 
 00:15:39.285 --> 00:15:41.308
 cancels a secret meeting saying that only
 
 00:15:41.668 --> 00:15:43.191
 I, the commander in chief, can call him.
 
 00:15:43.812 --> 00:15:46.274
 yeah delays it to let people cool off
 
 00:15:46.293 --> 00:15:48.695
 then he calls his own meeting he makes
 
 00:15:49.255 --> 00:15:52.057
 gates the chair of the meeting which means
 
 00:15:52.097 --> 00:15:54.438
 that the chair at that point cannot debate
 
 00:15:54.778 --> 00:15:57.760
 and cannot address right the crowd then
 
 00:15:57.841 --> 00:16:00.482
 washington shows up out of nowhere and
 
 00:16:00.503 --> 00:16:01.964
 then in washington's famous where he
 
 00:16:02.024 --> 00:16:03.846
 usually likes to address his troops his
 
 00:16:03.946 --> 00:16:05.706
 officers in writing yeah
 
 00:16:06.650 --> 00:16:07.873
 And he shows up and he gives this
 
 00:16:07.913 --> 00:16:09.955
 impassioned speech called the Newburgh
 
 00:16:09.975 --> 00:16:10.395
 Address,
 
 00:16:10.855 --> 00:16:12.758
 where he basically tries to pull them
 
 00:16:12.798 --> 00:16:13.119
 back,
 
 00:16:13.158 --> 00:16:15.861
 tries to tell them that anyone who would
 
 00:16:16.001 --> 00:16:18.244
 use any pretense against the country is a
 
 00:16:18.364 --> 00:16:18.764
 villain.
 
 00:16:19.482 --> 00:16:22.066
 And he uses the terms as you value
 
 00:16:22.105 --> 00:16:22.886
 your sacred honor.
 
 00:16:22.947 --> 00:16:25.129
 So calling them back to the Declaration of
 
 00:16:25.168 --> 00:16:26.610
 Independence, those ideals.
 
 00:16:28.532 --> 00:16:30.654
 And there's some debate over how how well
 
 00:16:30.695 --> 00:16:31.115
 this works.
 
 00:16:31.154 --> 00:16:33.457
 So you're a Boston guy.
 
 00:16:33.498 --> 00:16:35.840
 You know that Washington wrote this in
 
 00:16:35.980 --> 00:16:37.081
 really big letters.
 
 00:16:37.601 --> 00:16:37.942
 Right.
 
 00:16:38.241 --> 00:16:40.124
 Massachusetts Historical Society.
 
 00:16:40.325 --> 00:16:40.544
 Yes.
 
 00:16:41.764 --> 00:16:43.085
 But what the officers didn't know,
 
 00:16:43.144 --> 00:16:44.125
 he was losing his sight.
 
 00:16:44.745 --> 00:16:45.024
 Yes.
 
 00:16:45.586 --> 00:16:47.225
 And what really wins them over is when
 
 00:16:47.245 --> 00:16:49.147
 he pulls out his glasses that no one's
 
 00:16:49.187 --> 00:16:49.868
 really ever seen him.
 
 00:16:49.927 --> 00:16:50.628
 And he said, gentlemen,
 
 00:16:50.707 --> 00:16:52.369
 I've gone gray in your service.
 
 00:16:52.448 --> 00:16:53.948
 Now I fear I've gone blind.
 
 00:16:53.989 --> 00:16:55.629
 And the room bursts into tears.
 
 00:16:55.750 --> 00:16:58.551
 And with that, Newberg comes to nothing.
 
 00:16:59.471 --> 00:17:04.433
 But because it's resolved so peacefully,
 
 00:17:05.775 --> 00:17:08.415
 I think we forget how dangerous this could
 
 00:17:08.455 --> 00:17:08.816
 have been.
 
 00:17:09.326 --> 00:17:11.326
 And there's a lot of there's a lot
 
 00:17:11.346 --> 00:17:13.027
 of historians that even argue, oh,
 
 00:17:13.106 --> 00:17:14.586
 this wasn't such a big deal.
 
 00:17:15.646 --> 00:17:17.446
 Washington, even if he wanted,
 
 00:17:17.686 --> 00:17:20.948
 couldn't have taken power.
 
 00:17:21.887 --> 00:17:23.828
 There wasn't enough centralized authority.
 
 00:17:24.749 --> 00:17:25.969
 And to that, I argue,
 
 00:17:26.689 --> 00:17:28.189
 it doesn't matter if he you know,
 
 00:17:28.269 --> 00:17:30.490
 if the army takes over the entire
 
 00:17:30.589 --> 00:17:31.190
 colonies,
 
 00:17:31.509 --> 00:17:33.690
 if they just go against Congress.
 
 00:17:34.009 --> 00:17:34.230
 Right.
 
 00:17:34.309 --> 00:17:35.830
 And this congressional authority,
 
 00:17:35.951 --> 00:17:37.171
 that's a complete destruction.
 
 00:17:37.211 --> 00:17:37.530
 Yeah.
 
 00:17:38.762 --> 00:17:39.262
 It really is.
 
 00:17:39.643 --> 00:17:42.125
 And that's also then why his resignation,
 
 00:17:42.164 --> 00:17:43.825
 his returning his commission to Congress.
 
 00:17:43.904 --> 00:17:44.165
 I mean,
 
 00:17:44.185 --> 00:17:46.426
 that's on a mural in the Capitol Dome
 
 00:17:46.487 --> 00:17:46.666
 now.
 
 00:17:46.707 --> 00:17:48.887
 Washington surrendering his returning his
 
 00:17:48.928 --> 00:17:50.568
 commission to civil authority.
 
 00:17:50.588 --> 00:17:53.329
 And he's always conscious of this.
 
 00:17:54.335 --> 00:17:54.535
 Yeah,
 
 00:17:54.615 --> 00:17:55.935
 it's a moment so good I put on
 
 00:17:55.955 --> 00:17:57.198
 the cover of two of my books.
 
 00:17:59.378 --> 00:18:00.380
 But yeah, you're right.
 
 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:01.821
 It's surrendering that commission,
 
 00:18:02.001 --> 00:18:02.823
 in my opinion,
 
 00:18:02.883 --> 00:18:04.503
 is the most important moment in American
 
 00:18:04.564 --> 00:18:04.943
 history.
 
 00:18:05.085 --> 00:18:07.185
 I know people will argue with me on
 
 00:18:07.205 --> 00:18:07.967
 that,
 
 00:18:07.987 --> 00:18:09.729
 but I think that is the moment that
 
 00:18:09.808 --> 00:18:12.250
 makes the American Revolution truly
 
 00:18:12.290 --> 00:18:12.691
 different,
 
 00:18:13.271 --> 00:18:16.354
 that it doesn't descend into anarchy or
 
 00:18:16.454 --> 00:18:19.576
 military dictatorship or some monarchy by
 
 00:18:19.636 --> 00:18:20.278
 another name.
 
 00:18:23.729 --> 00:18:25.191
 And this is something Washington's been
 
 00:18:25.290 --> 00:18:26.971
 signaling since basically,
 
 00:18:27.011 --> 00:18:28.173
 seventeen seventy five.
 
 00:18:29.433 --> 00:18:32.916
 But in actually handing over power when
 
 00:18:32.957 --> 00:18:37.580
 it's controversial to say that one Irish
 
 00:18:37.621 --> 00:18:40.344
 military officer does suggest Washington
 
 00:18:40.384 --> 00:18:41.203
 take up a crown.
 
 00:18:44.027 --> 00:18:46.509
 You do have the British convinced
 
 00:18:47.627 --> 00:18:50.588
 whether it's Carlton or even George III,
 
 00:18:50.710 --> 00:18:54.230
 convinced that there must be some form of
 
 00:18:54.310 --> 00:18:54.791
 monarch.
 
 00:18:55.791 --> 00:18:57.192
 Whatever name you want to call it,
 
 00:18:57.252 --> 00:18:57.853
 dictator,
 
 00:19:00.193 --> 00:19:02.434
 there is no way this can work without
 
 00:19:02.515 --> 00:19:03.256
 something like that.
 
 00:19:03.375 --> 00:19:05.136
 And that's why it is so shocking.
 
 00:19:05.737 --> 00:19:07.538
 And that's why Washington giving that
 
 00:19:07.557 --> 00:19:08.837
 commission back to Congress,
 
 00:19:08.857 --> 00:19:10.459
 which happens in Annapolis, Maryland,
 
 00:19:10.578 --> 00:19:12.759
 on December twenty third, seventeen three,
 
 00:19:13.441 --> 00:19:14.580
 is so amazing.
 
 00:19:15.181 --> 00:19:16.201
 It's because
 
 00:19:17.796 --> 00:19:19.284
 No one's really done it since the
 
 00:19:19.324 --> 00:19:19.968
 classical era.
 
 00:19:19.988 --> 00:19:20.108
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:21.675 --> 00:19:23.076
 And he's certainly conscious of this.
 
 00:19:23.356 --> 00:19:27.157
 So this is really the signal moment.
 
 00:19:27.178 --> 00:19:28.438
 Probably we should have talked about some
 
 00:19:28.458 --> 00:19:31.078
 of the earlier moments first before we get
 
 00:19:31.098 --> 00:19:34.180
 to that great concluding moment.
 
 00:19:36.019 --> 00:19:38.221
 And one thing your book really does is
 
 00:19:38.260 --> 00:19:41.402
 tell us how bloody this period between
 
 00:19:41.481 --> 00:19:45.583
 Yorktown and the end of the year was.
 
 00:19:45.643 --> 00:19:47.364
 It was called the Bloody Year on the
 
 00:19:47.403 --> 00:19:47.903
 Frontier.
 
 00:19:48.903 --> 00:19:51.906
 um in the West and again the United
 
 00:19:51.967 --> 00:19:55.829
 States is trying to establish that it has
 
 00:19:55.950 --> 00:19:58.152
 you know Authority up to the Mississippi
 
 00:19:58.192 --> 00:19:59.972
 River but that Authority is really very
 
 00:20:00.032 --> 00:20:01.794
 tenuous as we see it's eighteen to
 
 00:20:01.914 --> 00:20:03.496
 eighteen eleven eighteen twelve I mean in
 
 00:20:03.556 --> 00:20:07.179
 the seventeen nineties the United States
 
 00:20:07.199 --> 00:20:08.960
 is constantly at war over that period but
 
 00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:10.480
 in this period they're really just trying
 
 00:20:10.520 --> 00:20:12.923
 to establish that this is part of the
 
 00:20:12.962 --> 00:20:15.005
 American territory so um
 
 00:20:16.060 --> 00:20:19.662
 And a couple of really horrific massacres
 
 00:20:19.701 --> 00:20:20.803
 happen on each side,
 
 00:20:20.823 --> 00:20:22.983
 in Adenhut and then the Delaware killing
 
 00:20:23.104 --> 00:20:25.144
 off the soldiers accused of being part of
 
 00:20:25.163 --> 00:20:25.304
 that.
 
 00:20:25.345 --> 00:20:26.744
 Want to talk a little bit about what's
 
 00:20:26.785 --> 00:20:27.884
 happening on the frontier?
 
 00:20:28.965 --> 00:20:29.846
 Yeah, so as you said,
 
 00:20:29.925 --> 00:20:31.686
 it's referred to as the bloody war.
 
 00:20:33.146 --> 00:20:35.448
 That's maybe a bit exaggerated in scale,
 
 00:20:35.488 --> 00:20:37.288
 but not in brutality.
 
 00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:41.210
 And what you're largely having is
 
 00:20:42.987 --> 00:20:44.108
 It's irregular fighting.
 
 00:20:44.608 --> 00:20:47.413
 So it's a lot of militia, Native American,
 
 00:20:48.315 --> 00:20:48.815
 British.
 
 00:20:51.345 --> 00:20:52.964
 fighting small battles,
 
 00:20:53.826 --> 00:20:57.406
 usually caused by some oftentimes
 
 00:20:57.487 --> 00:20:59.227
 deep-seated animosity,
 
 00:20:59.307 --> 00:21:01.528
 can also be really personal.
 
 00:21:01.928 --> 00:21:04.348
 So you basically have a whole chain of
 
 00:21:04.388 --> 00:21:08.509
 events that starts with a Native American
 
 00:21:08.589 --> 00:21:09.049
 raid.
 
 00:21:09.309 --> 00:21:10.830
 Again, we could argue when does it start,
 
 00:21:10.851 --> 00:21:11.290
 but again,
 
 00:21:11.310 --> 00:21:11.750
 we'll say our
 
 00:21:15.132 --> 00:21:16.692
 starts when you have a Native American
 
 00:21:16.732 --> 00:21:19.815
 raid into frontier American villages.
 
 00:21:19.934 --> 00:21:21.395
 And you have some,
 
 00:21:21.615 --> 00:21:24.719
 you have civilians killed, captured,
 
 00:21:25.638 --> 00:21:26.900
 taken prisoner, what have you.
 
 00:21:27.941 --> 00:21:29.981
 And this leads to reprisals.
 
 00:21:30.582 --> 00:21:31.323
 And what you've mentioned,
 
 00:21:31.343 --> 00:21:33.744
 the Gnadhudin massacre,
 
 00:21:34.305 --> 00:21:36.326
 basically is a response to this,
 
 00:21:36.385 --> 00:21:39.347
 where you have a Pennsylvania militia are
 
 00:21:39.367 --> 00:21:40.288
 going to march out
 
 00:21:41.231 --> 00:21:43.795
 in search of revenge, retribution,
 
 00:21:43.855 --> 00:21:46.837
 and they come upon Moravian native
 
 00:21:46.857 --> 00:21:47.278
 villages.
 
 00:21:47.317 --> 00:21:49.500
 So the Moravians, they had been converted.
 
 00:21:49.579 --> 00:21:51.122
 They're more pacifists.
 
 00:21:51.602 --> 00:21:54.665
 But as we've seen throughout, well,
 
 00:21:54.705 --> 00:21:55.707
 since King Philip's War,
 
 00:21:55.866 --> 00:21:57.729
 oftentimes the Native Americans who are
 
 00:21:57.769 --> 00:21:59.369
 targeted are not necessarily the Native
 
 00:21:59.390 --> 00:22:00.771
 Americans who have been involved.
 
 00:22:01.231 --> 00:22:03.994
 But this group of largely pacifists
 
 00:22:05.137 --> 00:22:08.759
 Natives is massacred by militia troops,
 
 00:22:09.479 --> 00:22:10.140
 one of which, again,
 
 00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:12.859
 and you have examples of people in that
 
 00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:15.040
 militia have lost wives,
 
 00:22:15.340 --> 00:22:16.981
 children to the previous raid.
 
 00:22:17.382 --> 00:22:20.122
 And they are convinced that these villages
 
 00:22:20.142 --> 00:22:21.782
 have been used as the staging points,
 
 00:22:21.883 --> 00:22:23.522
 as the launching points forward,
 
 00:22:23.563 --> 00:22:25.544
 or at least they've supplied these raids.
 
 00:22:26.304 --> 00:22:28.444
 What's really interesting at Nathun,
 
 00:22:28.545 --> 00:22:31.346
 aside from it is an atrocity,
 
 00:22:31.925 --> 00:22:32.226
 but
 
 00:22:33.608 --> 00:22:35.230
 It's really a failure of command.
 
 00:22:35.829 --> 00:22:39.231
 So Colonel Williamson doesn't really want
 
 00:22:39.251 --> 00:22:39.913
 to do this,
 
 00:22:39.992 --> 00:22:42.634
 but he's afraid of losing his position
 
 00:22:42.713 --> 00:22:45.996
 because he was voted to his colonelcy.
 
 00:22:46.615 --> 00:22:48.856
 And so he has people vote if these
 
 00:22:48.896 --> 00:22:50.377
 hostages, these prisoners,
 
 00:22:51.018 --> 00:22:52.318
 should be executed or not.
 
 00:22:52.939 --> 00:22:56.701
 And there's debates over how many were for
 
 00:22:56.740 --> 00:22:57.561
 it or against.
 
 00:22:58.021 --> 00:22:59.942
 Some people argue it's just a really vocal
 
 00:22:59.982 --> 00:23:00.604
 minority.
 
 00:23:03.586 --> 00:23:04.767
 But we know there's really only,
 
 00:23:05.428 --> 00:23:06.307
 let's say there's, again,
 
 00:23:06.327 --> 00:23:07.167
 I forget exact numbers,
 
 00:23:07.188 --> 00:23:08.449
 but I think there's only fifteen to
 
 00:23:08.548 --> 00:23:10.108
 eighteen that vote no.
 
 00:23:10.689 --> 00:23:11.890
 And you literally have men,
 
 00:23:11.910 --> 00:23:14.971
 women and children are smashed to the head
 
 00:23:15.010 --> 00:23:16.530
 with axes and mallets.
 
 00:23:17.632 --> 00:23:20.813
 And though everyone decries this on both
 
 00:23:20.853 --> 00:23:21.232
 sides,
 
 00:23:22.362 --> 00:23:23.663
 No one is really punished.
 
 00:23:23.722 --> 00:23:25.944
 No one's held to account for this because
 
 00:23:26.525 --> 00:23:27.806
 there is a real fear,
 
 00:23:28.186 --> 00:23:29.288
 particularly on the frontier,
 
 00:23:29.667 --> 00:23:31.669
 of losing authority with the local
 
 00:23:31.709 --> 00:23:34.731
 populations that they may be seen as too
 
 00:23:34.771 --> 00:23:38.134
 pro-Indian or too soft on the enemy.
 
 00:23:38.375 --> 00:23:39.474
 So nothing really happens.
 
 00:23:39.496 --> 00:23:40.655
 Investigations are held.
 
 00:23:41.497 --> 00:23:42.917
 There are claims that, you know,
 
 00:23:42.958 --> 00:23:44.700
 we can't let this happen in the future.
 
 00:23:44.980 --> 00:23:46.080
 But ultimately, it
 
 00:23:47.739 --> 00:23:50.039
 There's no justice,
 
 00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:53.021
 which leads to reprisals by the Native
 
 00:23:53.041 --> 00:23:53.663
 Americans,
 
 00:23:54.482 --> 00:23:56.104
 which leads to further reprisals by the
 
 00:23:56.144 --> 00:23:56.683
 Americans.
 
 00:23:56.743 --> 00:24:00.666
 So it basically kicks off campaigns that,
 
 00:24:00.707 --> 00:24:03.769
 yes, there are strategic goals,
 
 00:24:04.758 --> 00:24:05.798
 but bottom line,
 
 00:24:05.979 --> 00:24:07.961
 it's often about personal revenge.
 
 00:24:08.461 --> 00:24:11.542
 And that's something that, uh, officers,
 
 00:24:11.583 --> 00:24:12.463
 you know, further East,
 
 00:24:12.503 --> 00:24:14.685
 like Nathaniel Green are terrified of.
 
 00:24:14.726 --> 00:24:14.945
 They,
 
 00:24:15.205 --> 00:24:16.547
 they looked at what happened with someone
 
 00:24:16.586 --> 00:24:17.468
 like Benedict Arnold,
 
 00:24:17.587 --> 00:24:20.329
 where the actions of one person could undo
 
 00:24:20.369 --> 00:24:21.090
 the revolution.
 
 00:24:21.151 --> 00:24:23.132
 So they're really afraid of what could
 
 00:24:23.152 --> 00:24:23.472
 happen.
 
 00:24:23.512 --> 00:24:25.354
 Benjamin Franklin is even talking about
 
 00:24:25.473 --> 00:24:27.076
 frontier violence in Paris.
 
 00:24:27.635 --> 00:24:29.617
 And at one point actually creates sort of
 
 00:24:29.678 --> 00:24:31.338
 propaganda, um,
 
 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:36.184
 that supposedly natives sending scalps to
 
 00:24:36.224 --> 00:24:39.148
 the British governor in Quebec doesn't
 
 00:24:39.189 --> 00:24:40.009
 really happen.
 
 00:24:41.010 --> 00:24:42.291
 Franklin's trying to use it to bring
 
 00:24:42.333 --> 00:24:43.773
 people to the peace table,
 
 00:24:43.814 --> 00:24:46.176
 but it actually inflames further violence
 
 00:24:46.217 --> 00:24:46.798
 on the frontier.
 
 00:24:48.336 --> 00:24:49.696
 It's amazing, truly amazing.
 
 00:24:49.797 --> 00:24:49.876
 Now,
 
 00:24:49.916 --> 00:24:52.198
 I'm just thinking in as you're telling
 
 00:24:52.218 --> 00:24:53.999
 this, you really you teach and again,
 
 00:24:54.038 --> 00:24:56.759
 you don't speak for the National Defense
 
 00:24:56.819 --> 00:24:58.761
 University or the Advanced Warfighting
 
 00:24:58.801 --> 00:24:59.142
 School,
 
 00:24:59.741 --> 00:25:01.863
 but your students are really going to be
 
 00:25:01.923 --> 00:25:04.625
 confronted or have been with very similar
 
 00:25:04.644 --> 00:25:07.385
 kind of issues in the kind of fighting
 
 00:25:07.425 --> 00:25:08.426
 that goes on today,
 
 00:25:09.487 --> 00:25:11.788
 as well as understanding the political
 
 00:25:11.847 --> 00:25:13.368
 nature of being in the military.
 
 00:25:13.388 --> 00:25:14.029
 It must be very
 
 00:25:15.230 --> 00:25:18.351
 interesting place to be able to teach it
 
 00:25:18.451 --> 00:25:21.372
 is certainly interesting um I do think and
 
 00:25:21.412 --> 00:25:23.071
 this is this is something I will harp
 
 00:25:23.172 --> 00:25:25.653
 on to anyone that will listen I do
 
 00:25:25.712 --> 00:25:29.834
 think that what happens in this era really
 
 00:25:29.973 --> 00:25:33.234
 sets up the foundations for officership
 
 00:25:33.615 --> 00:25:37.136
 today uh it sets up the basis of
 
 00:25:37.717 --> 00:25:38.477
 uh conduct
 
 00:25:39.460 --> 00:25:40.201
 laws of war,
 
 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:42.983
 the idea of honor within the US military,
 
 00:25:43.224 --> 00:25:45.027
 it's really coming from this period.
 
 00:25:45.067 --> 00:25:45.507
 So yes,
 
 00:25:46.228 --> 00:25:48.109
 we could find things that are influential
 
 00:25:48.371 --> 00:25:49.632
 since then, absolutely.
 
 00:25:49.932 --> 00:25:54.238
 But if you go back to your commissioning
 
 00:25:54.357 --> 00:25:54.597
 oath,
 
 00:25:54.878 --> 00:25:57.101
 going back to the ideals that underpin
 
 00:25:58.268 --> 00:25:59.909
 officers today, it's this era.
 
 00:26:00.229 --> 00:26:01.909
 So if you think it's how Washington
 
 00:26:01.949 --> 00:26:02.930
 resigning his commission,
 
 00:26:03.049 --> 00:26:04.690
 it's the response to Newburgh,
 
 00:26:05.171 --> 00:26:09.011
 it's Green arguing for proper conduct and
 
 00:26:09.031 --> 00:26:10.613
 obeying laws of war.
 
 00:26:11.053 --> 00:26:13.213
 These are the things that really underpin
 
 00:26:13.653 --> 00:26:16.355
 the US military in a way that was
 
 00:26:16.474 --> 00:26:18.536
 different from a lot of European
 
 00:26:18.576 --> 00:26:20.435
 militaries, which were, you know,
 
 00:26:20.517 --> 00:26:20.916
 in effect,
 
 00:26:20.997 --> 00:26:21.616
 not about
 
 00:26:23.018 --> 00:26:24.377
 They weren't Republican armies.
 
 00:26:24.417 --> 00:26:25.578
 They weren't citizen armies.
 
 00:26:25.638 --> 00:26:28.779
 So Napoleon often gets credit for creating
 
 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:31.881
 this great army of the republic.
 
 00:26:32.161 --> 00:26:33.941
 It's Washington and the Continental Army
 
 00:26:33.961 --> 00:26:35.721
 that precedes it by years.
 
 00:26:36.382 --> 00:26:40.383
 And I think that is what is so
 
 00:26:40.423 --> 00:26:41.522
 important about this era,
 
 00:26:41.563 --> 00:26:43.064
 because it shows that this is an army
 
 00:26:43.344 --> 00:26:44.544
 fighting for ideals,
 
 00:26:45.505 --> 00:26:49.266
 not just an army fighting for some purely
 
 00:26:49.306 --> 00:26:50.246
 political object.
 
 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:54.281
 There may be an apocryphal story about a
 
 00:26:54.422 --> 00:26:56.904
 German soldier asking a French soldier,
 
 00:26:56.944 --> 00:26:58.865
 a British soldier at Yorktown,
 
 00:26:58.986 --> 00:27:00.126
 I fight for my master,
 
 00:27:00.166 --> 00:27:00.948
 you fight for yours,
 
 00:27:00.968 --> 00:27:02.288
 but who do these people fight for?
 
 00:27:02.308 --> 00:27:04.490
 I'm wondering about the Americans.
 
 00:27:04.692 --> 00:27:05.833
 And you're right,
 
 00:27:05.873 --> 00:27:07.233
 I think this is really different.
 
 00:27:07.273 --> 00:27:08.815
 We're talking with Craig Smith,
 
 00:27:08.875 --> 00:27:11.298
 who is a professor of history at the
 
 00:27:11.337 --> 00:27:12.719
 Advanced Warfighting School.
 
 00:27:12.979 --> 00:27:14.921
 at the National Defense University,
 
 00:27:14.941 --> 00:27:16.422
 and he's also the author of his new
 
 00:27:16.442 --> 00:27:17.943
 book, Securing Victory,
 
 00:27:18.663 --> 00:27:21.086
 that's part of the U.S.
 
 00:27:21.146 --> 00:27:23.548
 Army Center for Military History series on
 
 00:27:23.989 --> 00:27:25.891
 the American Revolution.
 
 00:27:27.071 --> 00:27:29.855
 So how receptive are your students to
 
 00:27:29.914 --> 00:27:32.297
 learning about things that happened before
 
 00:27:32.376 --> 00:27:35.359
 aviation and in this bygone era?
 
 00:27:36.047 --> 00:27:36.767
 Well, again,
 
 00:27:37.086 --> 00:27:39.989
 I I do a Yorktown staff ride every
 
 00:27:40.028 --> 00:27:42.730
 year and I do an American Revolution
 
 00:27:42.869 --> 00:27:43.410
 elective.
 
 00:27:44.390 --> 00:27:44.951
 So if.
 
 00:27:46.550 --> 00:27:47.932
 Sometimes they don't have a choice,
 
 00:27:49.373 --> 00:27:52.913
 but I think I think most are really
 
 00:27:52.973 --> 00:27:53.554
 receptive.
 
 00:27:54.173 --> 00:27:56.154
 I think most Americans,
 
 00:27:56.454 --> 00:27:58.155
 at least I hope I certainly say that
 
 00:27:58.195 --> 00:28:00.017
 most I could say that most military
 
 00:28:00.096 --> 00:28:03.377
 officers know.
 
 00:28:03.397 --> 00:28:05.098
 The importance of the American Revolution.
 
 00:28:07.266 --> 00:28:07.866
 What I think,
 
 00:28:08.666 --> 00:28:10.788
 and this is speaking broader picture about
 
 00:28:10.909 --> 00:28:13.612
 the America in general,
 
 00:28:13.852 --> 00:28:15.854
 I think people forget how important these
 
 00:28:15.913 --> 00:28:18.375
 lessons still are and how relevant they
 
 00:28:18.435 --> 00:28:19.017
 still are.
 
 00:28:19.497 --> 00:28:22.278
 The idea about citizenship and civics,
 
 00:28:22.298 --> 00:28:22.480
 you know,
 
 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:23.661
 we have a lot of the debate about
 
 00:28:23.721 --> 00:28:25.883
 people don't know civics anymore or they
 
 00:28:25.903 --> 00:28:27.723
 don't understand the value of citizenship.
 
 00:28:27.763 --> 00:28:29.945
 So if you go back to the revolution,
 
 00:28:30.006 --> 00:28:30.866
 there's a tangible,
 
 00:28:31.007 --> 00:28:32.107
 this is what people are fighting.
 
 00:28:33.143 --> 00:28:34.623
 If you understand the ideals of the
 
 00:28:34.643 --> 00:28:35.502
 American Revolution,
 
 00:28:35.522 --> 00:28:37.003
 you understand what it means to be a
 
 00:28:37.064 --> 00:28:37.443
 citizen.
 
 00:28:37.824 --> 00:28:38.923
 And if you understand what it means to
 
 00:28:38.943 --> 00:28:39.503
 be a citizen,
 
 00:28:39.523 --> 00:28:41.183
 you understand what it means to defend
 
 00:28:41.223 --> 00:28:43.244
 those rights as a citizen.
 
 00:28:43.285 --> 00:28:46.045
 So that's why I think it's crucially
 
 00:28:46.065 --> 00:28:46.585
 important.
 
 00:28:48.086 --> 00:28:49.645
 One of the interesting things I often
 
 00:28:49.685 --> 00:28:52.125
 think is sharing this story with
 
 00:28:52.205 --> 00:28:53.605
 international audiences.
 
 00:28:54.507 --> 00:28:55.567
 Because it's new.
 
 00:28:56.086 --> 00:28:57.386
 If you didn't grow up with this,
 
 00:28:57.666 --> 00:28:58.886
 it can very times be new.
 
 00:28:59.047 --> 00:29:00.508
 And I think what's really interesting is
 
 00:29:00.528 --> 00:29:00.988
 to show...
 
 00:29:04.809 --> 00:29:06.172
 people who are born somewhere else,
 
 00:29:06.291 --> 00:29:07.373
 why this matters.
 
 00:29:07.993 --> 00:29:09.776
 And I think if you can convince someone
 
 00:29:09.836 --> 00:29:11.679
 who is not American why this matters,
 
 00:29:11.778 --> 00:29:15.743
 I think that's really something.
 
 00:29:15.784 --> 00:29:16.084
 Thank you.
 
 00:29:16.403 --> 00:29:17.204
 I wonder, again,
 
 00:29:17.346 --> 00:29:18.586
 a couple of other things I did want
 
 00:29:18.606 --> 00:29:20.489
 to talk about because they're fascinating.
 
 00:29:21.550 --> 00:29:24.271
 One is the associated loyalists.
 
 00:29:24.291 --> 00:29:26.232
 You know, we talk about the Americans,
 
 00:29:26.272 --> 00:29:28.752
 but then as you have mentioned,
 
 00:29:28.813 --> 00:29:30.074
 and we know there are a lot of
 
 00:29:30.114 --> 00:29:32.054
 Americans who remain loyal to the crown,
 
 00:29:32.114 --> 00:29:35.015
 and we have the associated loyalists in
 
 00:29:35.174 --> 00:29:36.875
 and around New York, but in other places.
 
 00:29:37.355 --> 00:29:37.935
 What's their role?
 
 00:29:37.955 --> 00:29:38.955
 What's going on with them?
 
 00:29:39.416 --> 00:29:41.317
 Yeah, so they're obviously,
 
 00:29:43.637 --> 00:29:45.057
 who is patriot, who's loyalist,
 
 00:29:45.077 --> 00:29:45.657
 who's neutral?
 
 00:29:45.959 --> 00:29:48.038
 John Adams is going to famously throw out
 
 00:29:48.078 --> 00:29:49.160
 the one-third, one-third,
 
 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:50.220
 one-third formula.
 
 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:50.559
 Right.
 
 00:29:51.515 --> 00:29:52.635
 Who knows if that's true?
 
 00:29:52.695 --> 00:29:54.517
 But certainly we know there's a lot of
 
 00:29:54.557 --> 00:29:57.199
 dividing loyalties or loyalties based on
 
 00:29:57.259 --> 00:29:58.318
 what armies closer.
 
 00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:00.641
 But there are fervent loyalists who
 
 00:30:00.681 --> 00:30:03.923
 believe that they are loyal to the king
 
 00:30:04.403 --> 00:30:07.984
 and they're no less supportive.
 
 00:30:08.045 --> 00:30:09.306
 They believe in their ideals,
 
 00:30:09.506 --> 00:30:10.886
 not any less than the patriots.
 
 00:30:11.676 --> 00:30:14.299
 um they often get cast as villains in
 
 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:18.183
 the story well because they lose yeah but
 
 00:30:18.743 --> 00:30:22.048
 uh you do have it's a complicated issue
 
 00:30:22.067 --> 00:30:24.049
 what's really complicated also is how
 
 00:30:24.109 --> 00:30:26.132
 patriots deal with loyalists because if
 
 00:30:26.152 --> 00:30:26.952
 you're thinking about
 
 00:30:28.384 --> 00:30:31.786
 ending a war, about the after times.
 
 00:30:32.106 --> 00:30:34.126
 What is this country going to look like
 
 00:30:34.647 --> 00:30:36.587
 if you win, if the Patriots win?
 
 00:30:37.388 --> 00:30:40.670
 You probably don't want to subject your
 
 00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:43.611
 loyalists to undue hostility and harm
 
 00:30:43.651 --> 00:30:44.991
 because you don't want to fracture.
 
 00:30:45.011 --> 00:30:46.551
 You don't want to have a fractured new
 
 00:30:46.612 --> 00:30:47.093
 country.
 
 00:30:47.532 --> 00:30:49.272
 So you have those at the very top,
 
 00:30:49.313 --> 00:30:50.433
 Washington, Green,
 
 00:30:50.453 --> 00:30:51.993
 that are really concerned with the
 
 00:30:52.055 --> 00:30:54.134
 treatment of loyalists.
 
 00:30:54.174 --> 00:30:55.316
 But again, as we say,
 
 00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:59.021
 It's the irregular fighting that usually
 
 00:30:59.142 --> 00:31:01.523
 is the most brutal, the most revenge,
 
 00:31:01.864 --> 00:31:03.684
 sometimes personal animosity.
 
 00:31:03.704 --> 00:31:03.825
 Well,
 
 00:31:03.845 --> 00:31:05.244
 you have neighbors fighting against
 
 00:31:05.326 --> 00:31:05.846
 neighbors.
 
 00:31:06.925 --> 00:31:09.587
 And so particularly along the New York,
 
 00:31:09.768 --> 00:31:10.708
 New Jersey border,
 
 00:31:11.368 --> 00:31:14.069
 because the British are in New York and
 
 00:31:14.089 --> 00:31:17.151
 you are going to have associations that
 
 00:31:17.270 --> 00:31:21.073
 are basically going to conduct raids in
 
 00:31:21.373 --> 00:31:22.374
 Patriot, New Jersey.
 
 00:31:23.109 --> 00:31:25.853
 And you're going to have responses from
 
 00:31:25.913 --> 00:31:26.093
 that.
 
 00:31:26.133 --> 00:31:27.753
 So you have the Patriot group called the
 
 00:31:27.794 --> 00:31:28.835
 Retaliators,
 
 00:31:29.996 --> 00:31:31.597
 although they were they were established
 
 00:31:31.637 --> 00:31:31.917
 first.
 
 00:31:31.938 --> 00:31:33.839
 So I'm not exactly sure what they were
 
 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:34.599
 retaliating against.
 
 00:31:34.619 --> 00:31:35.840
 Yeah.
 
 00:31:35.921 --> 00:31:37.462
 And then you have the association and you
 
 00:31:37.522 --> 00:31:40.125
 basically have like we've seen on the
 
 00:31:40.365 --> 00:31:42.586
 frontier with Native Americans and Patriot
 
 00:31:42.606 --> 00:31:43.008
 militia.
 
 00:31:43.468 --> 00:31:45.630
 You have these these instances of these
 
 00:31:45.670 --> 00:31:47.791
 little flare ups that go all the way
 
 00:31:47.811 --> 00:31:49.093
 to the top where you have.
 
 00:31:51.347 --> 00:31:54.048
 You have one, particularly in New Jersey,
 
 00:31:54.088 --> 00:31:56.509
 you have one officer named Huddy who's
 
 00:31:56.528 --> 00:31:57.469
 taken prisoner.
 
 00:31:57.990 --> 00:32:02.951
 And then in a separate raid, a loyalist,
 
 00:32:03.570 --> 00:32:04.391
 Private White,
 
 00:32:04.711 --> 00:32:07.412
 is basically written down after he tries
 
 00:32:07.432 --> 00:32:09.412
 to escape after being offered quarter.
 
 00:32:10.051 --> 00:32:12.692
 Then you have Huddy,
 
 00:32:12.712 --> 00:32:14.192
 who has been imprisoned in a hulk,
 
 00:32:14.313 --> 00:32:17.134
 removed and hanged as a response.
 
 00:32:18.367 --> 00:32:21.209
 And then this leads to these cries of
 
 00:32:21.388 --> 00:32:22.970
 outrage by the part of the British.
 
 00:32:22.990 --> 00:32:26.791
 It makes its way to Washington.
 
 00:32:27.352 --> 00:32:33.013
 Washington is going to basically call for
 
 00:32:33.094 --> 00:32:36.375
 justice and they're going to discuss the
 
 00:32:36.455 --> 00:32:37.576
 idea of lex talionis,
 
 00:32:37.615 --> 00:32:40.396
 the idea of right of retribution.
 
 00:32:40.436 --> 00:32:43.699
 And it leads back to Yorktown because
 
 00:32:44.768 --> 00:32:46.108
 one of the provi there are certain
 
 00:32:46.148 --> 00:32:49.351
 provisions on the treaty of yorktown um
 
 00:32:49.371 --> 00:32:51.772
 that protect prisoners from this lex
 
 00:32:51.792 --> 00:32:54.855
 talionis is acceptable but uh only if a
 
 00:32:54.914 --> 00:32:57.256
 prisoner is captured not surrendered and
 
 00:32:57.276 --> 00:32:59.196
 the only prisoner they have of equal rank
 
 00:32:59.217 --> 00:33:02.459
 to captain huddy is a a young officer
 
 00:33:02.499 --> 00:33:04.500
 named askill the problem is he's from a
 
 00:33:04.560 --> 00:33:06.422
 prominent aristocratic family and this
 
 00:33:06.461 --> 00:33:07.462
 leads to complaints
 
 00:33:08.103 --> 00:33:09.726
 from British aristocrats,
 
 00:33:09.945 --> 00:33:11.107
 from the French King.
 
 00:33:11.368 --> 00:33:13.712
 And it binds Washington in this awful spot
 
 00:33:13.752 --> 00:33:15.434
 where he's trying to
 
 00:33:16.828 --> 00:33:20.652
 prevent further abuses against prisoners,
 
 00:33:20.971 --> 00:33:22.692
 but having to do something that's really
 
 00:33:23.012 --> 00:33:24.253
 morally questionable.
 
 00:33:25.394 --> 00:33:27.056
 But what Washington ultimately does,
 
 00:33:27.115 --> 00:33:28.317
 is what he does many times,
 
 00:33:28.457 --> 00:33:29.798
 is he defers to Congress.
 
 00:33:30.598 --> 00:33:33.221
 Congress ultimately is going to defuse
 
 00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:35.642
 this because of this sort of international
 
 00:33:35.741 --> 00:33:36.163
 outrage.
 
 00:33:36.423 --> 00:33:41.886
 But it shows how some random private being
 
 00:33:41.926 --> 00:33:43.728
 killed has the potential to
 
 00:33:45.461 --> 00:33:47.305
 reach the very top and potentially even
 
 00:33:47.444 --> 00:33:50.470
 undo peace negotiations in Paris.
 
 00:33:51.845 --> 00:33:53.345
 It's amazing because you have the King of
 
 00:33:53.404 --> 00:33:56.566
 France interceding as well as friends of
 
 00:33:56.726 --> 00:33:58.165
 Asgill in England.
 
 00:33:58.665 --> 00:34:01.086
 And it's really an astonishing story that
 
 00:34:01.126 --> 00:34:01.987
 this, you know,
 
 00:34:02.307 --> 00:34:04.647
 Huddy and White and that leads to this
 
 00:34:05.248 --> 00:34:07.048
 bigger, much bigger political problem.
 
 00:34:07.127 --> 00:34:09.128
 It shows you that sometimes the American
 
 00:34:09.168 --> 00:34:11.148
 Revolution, it becomes a global war.
 
 00:34:11.228 --> 00:34:12.048
 It's so big.
 
 00:34:12.188 --> 00:34:14.090
 It gets the idea of it's so high-minded.
 
 00:34:14.150 --> 00:34:16.789
 Sometimes it comes down to personal
 
 00:34:16.909 --> 00:34:19.811
 relationships and personal animosity where
 
 00:34:19.831 --> 00:34:21.170
 you're literally one person
 
 00:34:22.047 --> 00:34:26.072
 could undo any number of things.
 
 00:34:26.112 --> 00:34:27.554
 We're talking with Craig Smith,
 
 00:34:27.614 --> 00:34:29.036
 Professor of History at the Advanced
 
 00:34:29.056 --> 00:34:30.998
 Warfighting School of National Defense
 
 00:34:31.059 --> 00:34:31.619
 University.
 
 00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:34.402
 His new book is Securing Victory.
 
 00:34:34.762 --> 00:34:36.826
 I think just one last piece of...
 
 00:34:38.668 --> 00:34:41.190
 In the story of the British evacuation
 
 00:34:41.210 --> 00:34:41.992
 from Charleston,
 
 00:34:42.032 --> 00:34:45.153
 you mentioned how the two sides were kind
 
 00:34:45.193 --> 00:34:46.954
 of fighting different wars and things go
 
 00:34:47.094 --> 00:34:48.115
 badly for the British,
 
 00:34:48.135 --> 00:34:49.717
 but right for the Americans and what
 
 00:34:49.737 --> 00:34:50.418
 they're trying to do.
 
 00:34:50.438 --> 00:34:51.958
 I wonder if you could kind of,
 
 00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:55.621
 that kind of does sum up why the
 
 00:34:55.661 --> 00:34:56.742
 war ends the way it does.
 
 00:34:58.856 --> 00:35:01.438
 yeah it's uh we know again there's going
 
 00:35:01.458 --> 00:35:04.699
 to be mass migration to to to canada
 
 00:35:04.760 --> 00:35:06.440
 britain other places you are going to have
 
 00:35:06.501 --> 00:35:08.882
 some loyalists stay but the evacuation of
 
 00:35:08.922 --> 00:35:12.525
 charleston in particular there is very
 
 00:35:12.585 --> 00:35:15.726
 real fear by the citizens of the loyalists
 
 00:35:15.927 --> 00:35:20.909
 citizens of charleston of retribution um
 
 00:35:21.030 --> 00:35:22.931
 again physical harm but if not physical
 
 00:35:22.971 --> 00:35:25.572
 harm of confiscation of their lands their
 
 00:35:25.612 --> 00:35:27.813
 property which absolutely goes on
 
 00:35:28.692 --> 00:35:29.833
 So for the loyalists,
 
 00:35:30.132 --> 00:35:33.315
 they're viewing it very much as their
 
 00:35:33.355 --> 00:35:35.777
 lives are over in one way or another.
 
 00:35:36.376 --> 00:35:39.119
 And that their world really is crumbling.
 
 00:35:39.418 --> 00:35:40.519
 And the stakes are high.
 
 00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:42.880
 Stakes were equally high for both sides.
 
 00:35:43.661 --> 00:35:46.043
 Because should the British win,
 
 00:35:46.684 --> 00:35:48.445
 are patriots going to be subjected to
 
 00:35:48.545 --> 00:35:50.286
 confiscation, execution, what have you?
 
 00:35:50.405 --> 00:35:51.626
 Absolutely not.
 
 00:35:52.306 --> 00:35:53.608
 But a lot of it is the fear
 
 00:35:53.947 --> 00:35:56.188
 that though you have higher ranking
 
 00:35:56.268 --> 00:35:57.690
 officers saying, no, you know,
 
 00:35:57.710 --> 00:36:00.070
 you will be given fair treatment.
 
 00:36:00.472 --> 00:36:01.831
 It's still that fear,
 
 00:36:02.492 --> 00:36:04.153
 particularly in places like Charleston,
 
 00:36:04.414 --> 00:36:05.855
 where you had, you know, further,
 
 00:36:05.934 --> 00:36:07.996
 further west, that backcountry fighting,
 
 00:36:08.036 --> 00:36:10.217
 the highly partisan conflict where there's
 
 00:36:10.237 --> 00:36:11.757
 that fear of what will happen,
 
 00:36:11.797 --> 00:36:13.978
 not necessarily what's coming from the
 
 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:14.438
 top,
 
 00:36:14.458 --> 00:36:16.780
 but what will come from society as a
 
 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:17.121
 whole.
 
 00:36:20.717 --> 00:36:22.938
 so we've been talking with craig smith
 
 00:36:22.978 --> 00:36:24.701
 professor of history at the advanced war
 
 00:36:24.740 --> 00:36:26.302
 fighting school at national defense
 
 00:36:26.342 --> 00:36:28.284
 university this has been great i mean i
 
 00:36:28.304 --> 00:36:29.885
 don't want to keep you all day and
 
 00:36:30.606 --> 00:36:32.188
 i'll i'll talk as long as you want
 
 00:36:32.208 --> 00:36:37.193
 to go it's such a great story and
 
 00:36:37.213 --> 00:36:38.114
 i'm really glad that you
 
 00:36:38.715 --> 00:36:41.257
 tell it in this way because it does
 
 00:36:41.277 --> 00:36:43.617
 uh captures this again it makes us wonder
 
 00:36:43.938 --> 00:36:45.820
 by the way i was thinking earlier in
 
 00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:48.742
 our conversation when there is this fear
 
 00:36:48.922 --> 00:36:52.083
 of this army we see a big argument
 
 00:36:52.184 --> 00:36:54.806
 over standing armies with a constitution
 
 00:36:54.826 --> 00:36:57.447
 being ratified but then we also get
 
 00:36:57.568 --> 00:36:59.469
 developed the myth of the citizen soldier
 
 00:36:59.509 --> 00:37:01.110
 which isn't that far from actually what
 
 00:37:01.170 --> 00:37:02.952
 these guys are trying to do that's really
 
 00:37:02.992 --> 00:37:05.512
 a tension between a professional military
 
 00:37:05.554 --> 00:37:05.893
 force
 
 00:37:07.612 --> 00:37:10.737
 And then having the the citizen soldiers
 
 00:37:10.777 --> 00:37:12.418
 will train one day a year and then
 
 00:37:12.518 --> 00:37:14.141
 be able to repel any danger.
 
 00:37:14.181 --> 00:37:15.643
 So where where do we come down on
 
 00:37:15.663 --> 00:37:15.742
 that?
 
 00:37:16.443 --> 00:37:18.085
 Yeah, it's tricky because, again,
 
 00:37:18.126 --> 00:37:19.668
 you know, the citizen, the myth, you know,
 
 00:37:19.728 --> 00:37:21.489
 myth of the citizen soldier is really not
 
 00:37:21.949 --> 00:37:22.471
 a myth.
 
 00:37:22.530 --> 00:37:24.092
 Again, it's probably played up.
 
 00:37:24.253 --> 00:37:24.534
 Right.
 
 00:37:24.614 --> 00:37:26.215
 It's exaggerated.
 
 00:37:26.715 --> 00:37:28.818
 But the idea is Americans are used to
 
 00:37:29.157 --> 00:37:30.858
 serving in the militia since, you know,
 
 00:37:31.099 --> 00:37:35.181
 this is an accepted part of society.
 
 00:37:35.661 --> 00:37:37.282
 But Washington very much has been trying
 
 00:37:37.302 --> 00:37:38.923
 to build a professional army.
 
 00:37:39.023 --> 00:37:40.625
 By seventeen eighty two,
 
 00:37:40.706 --> 00:37:41.585
 seventeen eighty three,
 
 00:37:42.045 --> 00:37:43.648
 the American army is as professional as
 
 00:37:43.668 --> 00:37:44.307
 it's ever been.
 
 00:37:44.547 --> 00:37:48.190
 It's it's as effective as it's ever been.
 
 00:37:50.771 --> 00:37:52.452
 And then it just sort of stops.
 
 00:37:53.114 --> 00:37:54.434
 So that moment of.
 
 00:37:55.429 --> 00:37:57.251
 we need this professional army to defeat
 
 00:37:57.532 --> 00:37:58.873
 the British professional army.
 
 00:37:58.932 --> 00:38:01.235
 After the war is won,
 
 00:38:01.835 --> 00:38:05.219
 that army again becomes a potential tool
 
 00:38:05.259 --> 00:38:05.858
 of oppression,
 
 00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:08.121
 just as how it was viewed in Britain.
 
 00:38:08.942 --> 00:38:10.884
 And the idea that you don't need this
 
 00:38:10.903 --> 00:38:11.625
 standing army,
 
 00:38:11.664 --> 00:38:14.447
 you could revert back to sort of the
 
 00:38:14.467 --> 00:38:15.188
 citizen soldier.
 
 00:38:15.228 --> 00:38:17.550
 So there are pushes,
 
 00:38:17.570 --> 00:38:19.632
 and Washington absolutely is in favor of
 
 00:38:20.264 --> 00:38:22.025
 maintaining this military presence and
 
 00:38:22.065 --> 00:38:23.786
 developing military education,
 
 00:38:24.507 --> 00:38:26.048
 which ultimately is going to become West
 
 00:38:26.088 --> 00:38:26.389
 Point.
 
 00:38:27.190 --> 00:38:27.829
 But you'll see,
 
 00:38:27.989 --> 00:38:29.371
 even into the Constitution,
 
 00:38:30.088 --> 00:38:32.070
 there is still a very real fear.
 
 00:38:32.170 --> 00:38:34.090
 So the idea that Congress must,
 
 00:38:34.271 --> 00:38:36.112
 in the Constitution, raise an army,
 
 00:38:36.211 --> 00:38:37.952
 though they must maintain a navy,
 
 00:38:38.833 --> 00:38:40.373
 very much keeping with the British sense
 
 00:38:40.393 --> 00:38:42.773
 that the army is a potential tool of
 
 00:38:42.833 --> 00:38:43.313
 oppression,
 
 00:38:43.353 --> 00:38:45.594
 whereas the navy is the sort of heroic
 
 00:38:45.635 --> 00:38:48.096
 protectors of the coast and the homeland.
 
 00:38:48.115 --> 00:38:49.797
 Right, yeah, yeah.
 
 00:38:51.177 --> 00:38:51.918
 And that, again,
 
 00:38:51.958 --> 00:38:53.759
 military appropriations can't be for
 
 00:38:53.838 --> 00:38:54.918
 longer than two years.
 
 00:38:54.978 --> 00:38:56.760
 And we have these other strictures there
 
 00:38:56.780 --> 00:38:58.420
 as a way of preventing what they see
 
 00:38:58.481 --> 00:38:58.760
 as this
 
 00:38:59.541 --> 00:39:01.702
 permanent force, the Janissaries,
 
 00:39:01.722 --> 00:39:03.304
 they keep referring to them.
 
 00:39:05.364 --> 00:39:06.646
 And it's also a fear, you know,
 
 00:39:06.686 --> 00:39:09.128
 the rise of organizations like the Society
 
 00:39:09.148 --> 00:39:09.947
 of the Cincinnati,
 
 00:39:10.288 --> 00:39:12.170
 many fearful are trying to create some
 
 00:39:12.210 --> 00:39:13.990
 sort of order of knights,
 
 00:39:14.090 --> 00:39:14.490
 even though
 
 00:39:17.423 --> 00:39:19.204
 Franklin and the Adamses, I think,
 
 00:39:19.385 --> 00:39:21.105
 are a little too touchy over that.
 
 00:39:21.204 --> 00:39:24.246
 But here we are.
 
 00:39:24.306 --> 00:39:24.965
 Yeah, here we are.
 
 00:39:25.005 --> 00:39:28.465
 So we've been talking with Craig Smith,
 
 00:39:28.505 --> 00:39:31.867
 whose new book is Securing Victory,
 
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 a part of the U.S.
 
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 Army Center for Military History series.
 
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 Thank you so much, Craig.
 
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 This has been really extraordinary talking
 
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 to you.
 
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 It's been fantastic to be on.
 
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 Glad we could make it happen.
 
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 Yeah, yeah.
 
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 Yeah,
 
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 we've been trying to get you on for
 
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 a couple of years now.
 
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 Yeah, I know.
 
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 It's always something.
 
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 So thank you so much.
 
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 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
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 the executive director of Rev.
 
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 Two Fifty,
 
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 who's our man behind the curtain,
 
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 and Jack Caddy, who's helping out as well.
 
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 And every week we thank folks in different
 
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 places who are regularly tuning in.
 
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 And if you're in one of these places
 
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 and want some Revolution Two Fifty swag,
 
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 send Jonathan an email,
 
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 jlane at revolution two five oh dot org.
 
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 And this week,
 
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 I want to thank our friends in Kent,
 
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 Washington,
 
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 and in Gloucester here in the Commonwealth
 
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 of Massachusetts, Riverdale, Georgia,
 
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 Mount Sterling, Ohio, Cordova, Tennessee,
 
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 and all places between and beyond.
 
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 Thanks for joining us.
 
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 Now we will be piped out on the
 
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 road to Boston.