Entangled Alliances with Ronald Angelo Johnson

 Join host Professor Robert Allison for a dynamic conversation with historian Ronald Angelo Johnson, author of Entangled Alliances: Racialized Freedom and Atlantic Diplomacy During the American Revolution. Together they explore how the American Revolution unfolded within a vibrant and contested Atlantic world shaped by Black leadership, Caribbean revolutions, and international diplomacy. Johnson, who holds the the Ralph and Bessie Mae Lynn Chair of History at Baylor University,  highlights the  global forces—from Haiti to Europe—that influenced American independence and redefined ideas of freedom. The Revolution was not an isolated struggle, but was part of a far-reaching web of alliances, conflicts, and revolutionary change. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:00.714 --> 00:00:02.073
 hello everyone and welcome to the
 
 00:00:02.113 --> 00:00:04.375
 revolution two fifty podcast i'm bob
 
 00:00:04.434 --> 00:00:06.615
 allison i chair the rev two fifty advisory
 
 00:00:06.636 --> 00:00:09.416
 group we are a consortium of about seventy
 
 00:00:09.436 --> 00:00:11.257
 five organizations in massachusetts
 
 00:00:11.298 --> 00:00:13.137
 planning commemorations of the beginnings
 
 00:00:13.217 --> 00:00:15.659
 of american independence and our guest
 
 00:00:15.698 --> 00:00:19.480
 today is ronald angelo johnson and um dr
 
 00:00:19.739 --> 00:00:21.740
 ron johnson is the ralph and bessie may
 
 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:24.582
 lynn chair of history at baylor university
 
 00:00:24.641 --> 00:00:26.182
 where he's an associate professor and has
 
 00:00:26.222 --> 00:00:26.983
 been teaching there for
 
 00:00:27.562 --> 00:00:28.623
 good number of years,
 
 00:00:28.823 --> 00:00:30.783
 and he's an author of a number of
 
 00:00:30.844 --> 00:00:31.984
 really interesting books.
 
 00:00:32.043 --> 00:00:33.844
 Diplomacy in Black and White really
 
 00:00:33.945 --> 00:00:35.784
 focuses on the relationship between John
 
 00:00:35.905 --> 00:00:37.725
 Adams and Toussaint Louverture.
 
 00:00:38.045 --> 00:00:41.226
 But his new book is Entangled Alliances,
 
 00:00:41.686 --> 00:00:43.768
 the Racialized Freedom and Atlantic
 
 00:00:43.807 --> 00:00:46.609
 Diplomacy During the American Revolution,
 
 00:00:46.948 --> 00:00:48.829
 and is part of Cornell University Press's
 
 00:00:48.908 --> 00:00:50.229
 United States and the World Series.
 
 00:00:50.250 --> 00:00:50.549
 So, Ron,
 
 00:00:50.590 --> 00:00:52.350
 thank you so much for joining us.
 
 00:00:52.409 --> 00:00:53.710
 Thank you so much for having me.
 
 00:00:53.750 --> 00:00:55.051
 I'm looking forward to talking with you.
 
 00:00:57.332 --> 00:00:57.773
 And this book,
 
 00:00:57.813 --> 00:00:59.213
 it's been a long time coming.
 
 00:00:59.314 --> 00:01:00.695
 And I think you put it in one
 
 00:01:00.715 --> 00:01:00.896
 way.
 
 00:01:00.915 --> 00:01:03.018
 It's a way of desegregating the story of
 
 00:01:03.037 --> 00:01:05.620
 the American Revolution.
 
 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:08.802
 Yeah, I really when people open the book,
 
 00:01:08.862 --> 00:01:10.584
 right, when people first open the book,
 
 00:01:11.105 --> 00:01:12.365
 a book about the American Revolution,
 
 00:01:12.465 --> 00:01:14.727
 I think they'll be surprised that it
 
 00:01:14.768 --> 00:01:18.712
 begins not in British North America or the
 
 00:01:18.731 --> 00:01:19.311
 United States.
 
 00:01:19.391 --> 00:01:19.572
 Right.
 
 00:01:19.632 --> 00:01:20.774
 It actually begins.
 
 00:01:21.554 --> 00:01:22.534
 in Saint-Domingue,
 
 00:01:22.555 --> 00:01:23.954
 which is the French colony that later
 
 00:01:23.974 --> 00:01:24.676
 becomes Haiti.
 
 00:01:25.296 --> 00:01:28.558
 And I do that intentionally because I want
 
 00:01:28.597 --> 00:01:31.338
 the readers to understand that the
 
 00:01:31.418 --> 00:01:33.879
 revolution was not of one color,
 
 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:34.960
 it wasn't of one group,
 
 00:01:35.361 --> 00:01:38.102
 and it wasn't just happening here in
 
 00:01:38.222 --> 00:01:39.123
 British North America.
 
 00:01:39.582 --> 00:01:40.864
 Now we're sitting in the United States.
 
 00:01:41.403 --> 00:01:43.605
 And so I think the story that I
 
 00:01:43.644 --> 00:01:44.266
 begin with,
 
 00:01:44.465 --> 00:01:45.926
 with a gentleman named Mackendall,
 
 00:01:46.346 --> 00:01:48.707
 really captures this idea that
 
 00:01:50.335 --> 00:01:51.481
 The American Revolution,
 
 00:01:52.004 --> 00:01:53.170
 the ideals of freedom,
 
 00:01:53.972 --> 00:01:56.733
 were not localized to Boston.
 
 00:01:56.754 --> 00:01:58.515
 They weren't localized to Philadelphia or
 
 00:01:58.555 --> 00:01:59.715
 Charleston or Savannah,
 
 00:01:59.995 --> 00:02:03.456
 but this idea of freedom was permeating
 
 00:02:03.516 --> 00:02:05.418
 across the Atlantic world.
 
 00:02:05.858 --> 00:02:07.638
 And so, you know, for many readers,
 
 00:02:07.679 --> 00:02:08.818
 they will never,
 
 00:02:08.860 --> 00:02:10.939
 some will not know Mackendall,
 
 00:02:11.241 --> 00:02:12.480
 they won't know the story,
 
 00:02:12.721 --> 00:02:15.081
 but I do hope they'll engage it and
 
 00:02:15.102 --> 00:02:17.622
 begin to see how his story and the
 
 00:02:17.663 --> 00:02:19.563
 story of the people around him connects
 
 00:02:19.924 --> 00:02:21.104
 with the American patriots.
 
 00:02:22.661 --> 00:02:24.524
 And certainly the American patriots were
 
 00:02:24.563 --> 00:02:25.965
 aware of this wider world.
 
 00:02:25.985 --> 00:02:27.507
 There's extensive trade between
 
 00:02:27.788 --> 00:02:30.191
 Saint-Domingue and New England and all of
 
 00:02:30.211 --> 00:02:32.092
 these folks in this Atlantic world.
 
 00:02:32.332 --> 00:02:32.554
 I mean,
 
 00:02:32.933 --> 00:02:34.475
 people in Saint-Domingue are colonized by
 
 00:02:34.496 --> 00:02:35.877
 the French, of course, and see these.
 
 00:02:35.897 --> 00:02:37.659
 So you have these two.
 
 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:38.980
 I don't want to.
 
 00:02:39.662 --> 00:02:40.983
 give my interpretation of this,
 
 00:02:41.002 --> 00:02:43.186
 but you have these two different kinds of
 
 00:02:43.246 --> 00:02:43.686
 causes,
 
 00:02:43.746 --> 00:02:45.647
 Mackindale and the cause against slavery,
 
 00:02:45.668 --> 00:02:48.411
 but then there's also this anti-colonial
 
 00:02:48.431 --> 00:02:49.731
 or anti-French thing,
 
 00:02:49.752 --> 00:02:52.253
 which often these are also slaveholders
 
 00:02:52.274 --> 00:02:53.876
 who are resisting the French.
 
 00:02:54.687 --> 00:02:55.687
 No, that's it.
 
 00:02:55.728 --> 00:02:56.247
 First of all,
 
 00:02:56.307 --> 00:02:58.028
 you hit the nail right on the head,
 
 00:02:58.088 --> 00:02:58.329
 right?
 
 00:02:58.368 --> 00:03:00.530
 Because one of the things we see is
 
 00:03:00.569 --> 00:03:03.372
 that different people are fighting for
 
 00:03:03.431 --> 00:03:05.152
 different types of freedom, right?
 
 00:03:05.212 --> 00:03:05.573
 Freedom,
 
 00:03:06.734 --> 00:03:08.294
 many of them are using the same language,
 
 00:03:08.335 --> 00:03:10.475
 freedom, liberte, those types of things,
 
 00:03:10.496 --> 00:03:12.097
 but they mean different things.
 
 00:03:12.456 --> 00:03:14.918
 For the enslaved population that Mackindaw
 
 00:03:14.957 --> 00:03:15.399
 represents,
 
 00:03:15.618 --> 00:03:17.159
 they want freedom from bondage,
 
 00:03:17.500 --> 00:03:18.699
 from these enslavers.
 
 00:03:19.100 --> 00:03:21.181
 Now, those same enslavers
 
 00:03:21.942 --> 00:03:22.822
 in Saint-Domingue,
 
 00:03:23.222 --> 00:03:26.362
 they want freedom from what they interpret
 
 00:03:26.383 --> 00:03:28.264
 to be a French tyranny, right?
 
 00:03:28.324 --> 00:03:31.264
 And so you have different people fighting
 
 00:03:31.443 --> 00:03:32.525
 at the same time,
 
 00:03:32.805 --> 00:03:34.145
 sometimes fighting each other,
 
 00:03:34.485 --> 00:03:36.025
 but then at times they're fighting
 
 00:03:36.064 --> 00:03:37.806
 together against the French.
 
 00:03:38.286 --> 00:03:40.725
 And again, the title,
 
 00:03:40.866 --> 00:03:42.526
 I worked with that title for quite a
 
 00:03:42.546 --> 00:03:42.866
 while, right?
 
 00:03:42.907 --> 00:03:43.887
 It's entangled, right?
 
 00:03:43.907 --> 00:03:45.948
 This idea of these alliances,
 
 00:03:46.328 --> 00:03:47.527
 it's really hard
 
 00:03:47.907 --> 00:03:49.750
 to pin it down because at different
 
 00:03:49.789 --> 00:03:50.210
 points,
 
 00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:52.831
 and the book carries itself over a twenty
 
 00:03:52.872 --> 00:03:54.514
 year period from seventeen sixty three to
 
 00:03:54.554 --> 00:03:55.574
 seventeen eighty three.
 
 00:03:56.155 --> 00:03:57.455
 And throughout that period,
 
 00:03:57.735 --> 00:04:01.620
 we see different groups of people allying
 
 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:03.281
 together, coalescing together,
 
 00:04:03.341 --> 00:04:04.421
 assisting each other.
 
 00:04:05.462 --> 00:04:06.963
 But when they're fighting together,
 
 00:04:07.163 --> 00:04:08.665
 they may have a common enemy,
 
 00:04:09.165 --> 00:04:10.927
 but they have different goals while
 
 00:04:10.948 --> 00:04:11.487
 they're doing it.
 
 00:04:11.527 --> 00:04:12.929
 And I want to try to capture that
 
 00:04:13.310 --> 00:04:14.770
 over the six chapters of the book.
 
 00:04:16.047 --> 00:04:16.166
 Yeah,
 
 00:04:16.206 --> 00:04:17.908
 you really go between these two treaties
 
 00:04:17.947 --> 00:04:19.947
 of Paris of seventeen sixty three and
 
 00:04:20.007 --> 00:04:21.069
 seventeen eighty three,
 
 00:04:21.088 --> 00:04:22.848
 which are very different results.
 
 00:04:22.869 --> 00:04:24.629
 You are a diplomatic historian initially,
 
 00:04:24.689 --> 00:04:26.170
 so that's it makes sense.
 
 00:04:26.189 --> 00:04:29.711
 And then and then the way you connect
 
 00:04:29.732 --> 00:04:32.432
 then Mackindale with Candide, I mean,
 
 00:04:32.451 --> 00:04:35.473
 Voltaire's great novel about the world,
 
 00:04:35.512 --> 00:04:37.374
 the best of all possible worlds.
 
 00:04:38.254 --> 00:04:39.894
 I you know,
 
 00:04:40.074 --> 00:04:42.194
 one of the things I want readers to
 
 00:04:42.235 --> 00:04:43.935
 come away with is that
 
 00:04:44.946 --> 00:04:46.966
 People who were enslaved, like,
 
 00:04:47.607 --> 00:04:48.848
 let me back up for just a second.
 
 00:04:49.387 --> 00:04:50.509
 When we're talking about the American
 
 00:04:50.528 --> 00:04:52.410
 Revolution, those of us who teach it,
 
 00:04:52.430 --> 00:04:53.550
 those of us who write about it,
 
 00:04:54.011 --> 00:04:56.531
 we often connect it with the Enlightenment
 
 00:04:56.572 --> 00:04:57.252
 period, right?
 
 00:04:57.312 --> 00:04:59.033
 And that the colonists are going to,
 
 00:04:59.372 --> 00:05:01.853
 a lot of the argumentation that Jefferson
 
 00:05:01.913 --> 00:05:03.754
 and Adams and Franklin are gonna use
 
 00:05:03.774 --> 00:05:05.115
 during this period, you know,
 
 00:05:05.136 --> 00:05:06.536
 and John Dixon and Thomas Paine,
 
 00:05:06.817 --> 00:05:08.096
 they're gonna draw on Enlightenment
 
 00:05:08.137 --> 00:05:08.458
 thinkers,
 
 00:05:08.497 --> 00:05:09.737
 whether it's the Scottish Enlightenment,
 
 00:05:09.757 --> 00:05:11.379
 the French Enlightenment, you know,
 
 00:05:11.418 --> 00:05:12.720
 John Locke and others,
 
 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:16.584
 But what I try to get the reader
 
 00:05:16.605 --> 00:05:18.348
 to understand is that at the same time
 
 00:05:18.367 --> 00:05:20.932
 you have these learned men reading learned
 
 00:05:20.971 --> 00:05:23.516
 documents across different languages,
 
 00:05:23.576 --> 00:05:24.898
 people who were enslaved
 
 00:05:25.713 --> 00:05:28.694
 did not need to read Voltaire to
 
 00:05:28.795 --> 00:05:31.375
 understand that they were being enslaved
 
 00:05:31.416 --> 00:05:34.497
 and that they deserved freedom.
 
 00:05:34.557 --> 00:05:36.319
 They were carrying it out.
 
 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.178
 Around the time that the Mackindaw,
 
 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:40.259
 I'm gonna put in quotes here,
 
 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:41.180
 the Mackindaw Revolt,
 
 00:05:41.201 --> 00:05:42.240
 and I want the readers to take a
 
 00:05:42.281 --> 00:05:44.641
 look at it to see why I say
 
 00:05:44.661 --> 00:05:45.843
 it's a revolt or whether it's not a
 
 00:05:45.882 --> 00:05:46.262
 revolt.
 
 00:05:47.202 --> 00:05:48.103
 But around that same time,
 
 00:05:48.124 --> 00:05:49.824
 that's when Candide is coming out.
 
 00:05:50.264 --> 00:05:51.204
 And in that book,
 
 00:05:51.485 --> 00:05:53.005
 Candide is dealing with slavery.
 
 00:05:54.346 --> 00:05:55.266
 I'm sorry, Voltaire,
 
 00:05:55.827 --> 00:05:57.309
 In the book, in the book Candide,
 
 00:05:57.588 --> 00:05:59.790
 Voltaire is dealing with slavery at the
 
 00:05:59.850 --> 00:06:02.091
 same time that Mackindale and other Black
 
 00:06:02.130 --> 00:06:04.250
 people in Saint-Domingue are actually
 
 00:06:04.411 --> 00:06:06.052
 acting out and trying to get out of
 
 00:06:06.112 --> 00:06:06.591
 slavery.
 
 00:06:06.892 --> 00:06:07.492
 And so, again,
 
 00:06:07.533 --> 00:06:09.853
 you have Europeans talking about slavery.
 
 00:06:10.093 --> 00:06:12.095
 You have enslaved Africans talking about
 
 00:06:12.154 --> 00:06:12.595
 slavery.
 
 00:06:13.095 --> 00:06:14.555
 And they're approaching it from very
 
 00:06:14.576 --> 00:06:15.175
 different ways.
 
 00:06:15.435 --> 00:06:18.137
 Candide is shining a light on slavery from
 
 00:06:18.177 --> 00:06:19.677
 a literary, philosophical sense.
 
 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:22.519
 Mackindale is empowering Black people
 
 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:26.240
 across Saint-Domingue to overcome slavery
 
 00:06:26.661 --> 00:06:29.362
 by embracing their African-ness, right?
 
 00:06:29.423 --> 00:06:31.223
 But these are two very different ways of
 
 00:06:31.264 --> 00:06:31.903
 approaching it.
 
 00:06:32.283 --> 00:06:34.644
 But the problem is the same, slavery.
 
 00:06:35.045 --> 00:06:36.545
 And the desire is the same in each
 
 00:06:36.586 --> 00:06:37.726
 case, freedom.
 
 00:06:39.913 --> 00:06:41.855
 Another character who really emerges in
 
 00:06:41.875 --> 00:06:43.776
 the book in an interesting way is Lemuel
 
 00:06:43.815 --> 00:06:47.238
 Haynes, who's a related story.
 
 00:06:47.379 --> 00:06:49.961
 And again, he's part of the Enlightenment,
 
 00:06:49.980 --> 00:06:51.461
 but also he is a minister.
 
 00:06:51.502 --> 00:06:52.642
 And you really bring up,
 
 00:06:53.103 --> 00:06:54.725
 it's not just the ideas of Voltaire,
 
 00:06:54.745 --> 00:06:57.447
 but also this religious identity that
 
 00:06:57.487 --> 00:06:59.588
 people have, the Baptists, Lemuel Haynes,
 
 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:01.951
 and these other really interesting stories
 
 00:07:01.971 --> 00:07:02.271
 that you've
 
 00:07:03.134 --> 00:07:03.314
 No,
 
 00:07:03.454 --> 00:07:05.656
 I thank you so much for bringing Lemuel
 
 00:07:05.696 --> 00:07:06.115
 Haynes up.
 
 00:07:06.156 --> 00:07:06.336
 Right.
 
 00:07:06.475 --> 00:07:08.495
 I think he is such an interesting and
 
 00:07:08.617 --> 00:07:11.656
 fascinating subject because, you know,
 
 00:07:11.677 --> 00:07:13.817
 while he is of mixed race parentage,
 
 00:07:14.377 --> 00:07:17.139
 he was indentured in Granville, Granville,
 
 00:07:17.178 --> 00:07:17.899
 Massachusetts,
 
 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:20.300
 and he is going to he's going to
 
 00:07:20.379 --> 00:07:21.560
 get gain his freedom.
 
 00:07:22.386 --> 00:07:22.586
 you know,
 
 00:07:22.625 --> 00:07:24.028
 just about the time that the American
 
 00:07:24.048 --> 00:07:25.209
 Revolution is kicking off, right?
 
 00:07:25.369 --> 00:07:29.072
 And he almost immediately enlists as a
 
 00:07:29.132 --> 00:07:31.514
 Minuteman from Granville and goes to
 
 00:07:31.574 --> 00:07:32.716
 Roxbury, right?
 
 00:07:32.755 --> 00:07:33.716
 But at that same time,
 
 00:07:34.557 --> 00:07:37.279
 he is embracing this spiritual ideal
 
 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:39.101
 understanding of liberty and freedom,
 
 00:07:39.122 --> 00:07:39.401
 right?
 
 00:07:39.521 --> 00:07:40.202
 He converts...
 
 00:07:40.603 --> 00:07:44.247
 to the Puritan way of the new light
 
 00:07:44.266 --> 00:07:46.569
 divinity that's going around Massachusetts
 
 00:07:46.588 --> 00:07:47.209
 at that time.
 
 00:07:47.769 --> 00:07:49.531
 And he is empowered by that.
 
 00:07:50.091 --> 00:07:52.415
 He is empowered by these theological
 
 00:07:52.595 --> 00:07:56.598
 aspects that God created all men free.
 
 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.060
 And we're going to see that as he
 
 00:07:58.100 --> 00:07:59.982
 embraces the American Revolution.
 
 00:08:00.541 --> 00:08:00.642
 One,
 
 00:08:00.682 --> 00:08:02.184
 he's going to do it through by writing
 
 00:08:02.204 --> 00:08:03.925
 a ballot after Lexington and Concord.
 
 00:08:04.286 --> 00:08:05.766
 He's going to write a poem around that.
 
 00:08:05.786 --> 00:08:06.846
 It's going to get set to music.
 
 00:08:07.266 --> 00:08:09.406
 But then shortly after the American
 
 00:08:09.427 --> 00:08:12.408
 Revolution, he's going to write a draft,
 
 00:08:13.028 --> 00:08:15.668
 a treatise of his own called Liberty
 
 00:08:15.747 --> 00:08:16.668
 Further Extended,
 
 00:08:17.067 --> 00:08:20.168
 in which he is steeped in that new
 
 00:08:20.209 --> 00:08:23.290
 divinity theology around the equality of
 
 00:08:23.449 --> 00:08:24.709
 man, and I'm sorry,
 
 00:08:24.870 --> 00:08:27.610
 the equality of human beings as given by
 
 00:08:27.709 --> 00:08:28.490
 a creator.
 
 00:08:28.971 --> 00:08:30.670
 And he truly defends
 
 00:08:31.370 --> 00:08:33.653
 the freedom of African descended people
 
 00:08:33.812 --> 00:08:36.294
 based on the fact that God created
 
 00:08:36.455 --> 00:08:39.817
 Europeans and Africans as equals and
 
 00:08:39.998 --> 00:08:41.639
 neither should enslave the other.
 
 00:08:41.938 --> 00:08:44.301
 And so that growing up in Massachusetts
 
 00:08:44.620 --> 00:08:46.623
 and then gaining his freedom from
 
 00:08:46.702 --> 00:08:48.705
 indenture around the time of the American
 
 00:08:48.725 --> 00:08:51.547
 Revolution and then his participation in
 
 00:08:51.567 --> 00:08:53.587
 the American Revolution leads him and his
 
 00:08:53.628 --> 00:08:55.669
 theological principles to make this
 
 00:08:55.710 --> 00:08:56.070
 treatise.
 
 00:08:56.370 --> 00:08:57.831
 And he's going to spend the rest of
 
 00:08:57.871 --> 00:08:58.432
 his life,
 
 00:08:58.451 --> 00:09:00.033
 which is going to be until eighteen thirty
 
 00:09:00.073 --> 00:09:00.354
 three,
 
 00:09:01.154 --> 00:09:03.219
 as a minister across New England,
 
 00:09:03.659 --> 00:09:06.125
 preaching and expanding this theology that
 
 00:09:06.144 --> 00:09:07.707
 he developed as a young man during the
 
 00:09:07.748 --> 00:09:08.629
 seventeen seventies.
 
 00:09:08.649 --> 00:09:11.697
 And he's the first African-American to be
 
 00:09:11.817 --> 00:09:12.258
 ordained.
 
 00:09:13.693 --> 00:09:13.894
 Yes,
 
 00:09:14.215 --> 00:09:16.456
 he is the first African-American to be
 
 00:09:16.517 --> 00:09:19.839
 ordained by a predominantly white American
 
 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:21.039
 denomination.
 
 00:09:21.441 --> 00:09:25.043
 The African Baptists of Williamsburg and
 
 00:09:25.063 --> 00:09:26.465
 Savannah would say, well,
 
 00:09:26.585 --> 00:09:27.325
 hold on a minute.
 
 00:09:27.686 --> 00:09:31.908
 We ordained pastors around that same time.
 
 00:09:32.168 --> 00:09:33.250
 But as best we know,
 
 00:09:33.289 --> 00:09:34.870
 particularly from the documentation,
 
 00:09:36.232 --> 00:09:38.634
 Lemuel Haynes is the first man of color
 
 00:09:38.894 --> 00:09:40.995
 to be ordained in the Christian ministry
 
 00:09:41.576 --> 00:09:42.618
 in British North America.
 
 00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:45.491
 interesting well while we're talking about
 
 00:09:45.591 --> 00:09:49.395
 the um ministers you have also the story
 
 00:09:49.416 --> 00:09:52.899
 of george lyle who's uh in georgia and
 
 00:09:52.940 --> 00:09:54.642
 he's a black baptist with the british
 
 00:09:54.682 --> 00:09:56.884
 forces and i don't want to tell the
 
 00:09:56.903 --> 00:09:58.625
 whole story of him because it's another
 
 00:09:58.785 --> 00:10:01.288
 interesting stories people on different
 
 00:10:01.349 --> 00:10:03.110
 sides who are then connected in these
 
 00:10:03.150 --> 00:10:03.871
 different ways
 
 00:10:04.432 --> 00:10:04.792
 Yes.
 
 00:10:04.892 --> 00:10:06.692
 And I, first of all, thank you again,
 
 00:10:06.753 --> 00:10:07.013
 Bob.
 
 00:10:07.253 --> 00:10:09.332
 It's such a close reader and bring it
 
 00:10:09.673 --> 00:10:10.274
 to light.
 
 00:10:10.333 --> 00:10:11.053
 And I want to,
 
 00:10:11.073 --> 00:10:12.833
 for our listeners here who may be
 
 00:10:12.894 --> 00:10:14.215
 wondering why,
 
 00:10:14.315 --> 00:10:16.634
 why are we talking about religion in a
 
 00:10:16.674 --> 00:10:18.296
 story about the American revolution?
 
 00:10:18.816 --> 00:10:20.956
 And it's because at least the argument I
 
 00:10:21.017 --> 00:10:21.716
 make in the book,
 
 00:10:21.797 --> 00:10:22.817
 I try to make in the book that
 
 00:10:23.037 --> 00:10:25.118
 people are seeking liberty in different
 
 00:10:25.177 --> 00:10:25.638
 ways.
 
 00:10:26.278 --> 00:10:28.739
 And religion becomes a way,
 
 00:10:28.999 --> 00:10:32.940
 particularly in the South for enslaved
 
 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:33.639
 Africans to,
 
 00:10:34.235 --> 00:10:36.701
 to have freedom of expression,
 
 00:10:36.721 --> 00:10:38.966
 to create an organization,
 
 00:10:38.988 --> 00:10:41.232
 create an institution where they can
 
 00:10:41.293 --> 00:10:42.537
 express themselves
 
 00:10:43.047 --> 00:10:44.447
 in their African-ness,
 
 00:10:44.768 --> 00:10:46.428
 in their Baptist-ness,
 
 00:10:46.908 --> 00:10:48.590
 and in their Blackness, right?
 
 00:10:48.769 --> 00:10:50.751
 So it's religion and culture coming
 
 00:10:50.772 --> 00:10:51.211
 together.
 
 00:10:51.692 --> 00:10:53.852
 And George Leal is a big part of
 
 00:10:53.873 --> 00:10:54.033
 that.
 
 00:10:54.072 --> 00:10:57.195
 So he's part of British North America.
 
 00:10:57.735 --> 00:10:58.775
 He's in Georgia.
 
 00:10:59.176 --> 00:11:01.238
 And he creates what is today known as
 
 00:11:01.298 --> 00:11:03.078
 First African Baptist Church.
 
 00:11:03.158 --> 00:11:05.440
 And it still exists in Savannah today.
 
 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:07.120
 I cannot remember for the life of me
 
 00:11:07.610 --> 00:11:09.072
 I can't call the name of the square
 
 00:11:09.412 --> 00:11:10.852
 because Savannah has all these wonderful
 
 00:11:10.893 --> 00:11:11.413
 squares.
 
 00:11:11.953 --> 00:11:13.115
 And it's sitting right in the middle of
 
 00:11:13.134 --> 00:11:13.934
 one of those squares.
 
 00:11:14.475 --> 00:11:15.495
 And it still exists today.
 
 00:11:15.535 --> 00:11:17.357
 And he he creates this church.
 
 00:11:17.758 --> 00:11:19.599
 He begins a church on a plantation around
 
 00:11:19.698 --> 00:11:20.740
 seventeen seventy three,
 
 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:21.840
 seventeen seventy four.
 
 00:11:22.681 --> 00:11:26.464
 And then after the British depart,
 
 00:11:26.543 --> 00:11:29.225
 after they evacuate Georgia in the in the
 
 00:11:29.525 --> 00:11:31.447
 seventeen eighty, seventeen eighty one,
 
 00:11:32.475 --> 00:11:33.956
 he leaves with them, right?
 
 00:11:33.995 --> 00:11:37.119
 And so he sees his own personal freedom.
 
 00:11:37.259 --> 00:11:39.080
 And again, I go, as you said, Bob,
 
 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:40.860
 I go back and forth about this because
 
 00:11:40.900 --> 00:11:42.822
 different people of color are going to
 
 00:11:42.842 --> 00:11:44.423
 make different decisions about what's in
 
 00:11:44.443 --> 00:11:46.105
 their own best interests regarding
 
 00:11:46.144 --> 00:11:46.466
 freedom.
 
 00:11:46.905 --> 00:11:48.986
 And for Reverend Leal, after he's made,
 
 00:11:49.427 --> 00:11:51.349
 after he's created this institution that
 
 00:11:51.389 --> 00:11:52.990
 lives on two hundred fifty years later in
 
 00:11:53.009 --> 00:11:53.750
 the United States,
 
 00:11:54.451 --> 00:11:56.732
 he feels like his his it is in
 
 00:11:56.793 --> 00:11:59.475
 his interest to leave with the British.
 
 00:11:59.534 --> 00:12:00.556
 And I guess we would call him a
 
 00:12:00.596 --> 00:12:01.697
 black loyalist, right?
 
 00:12:01.996 --> 00:12:02.236
 Right.
 
 00:12:02.256 --> 00:12:04.217
 So he leaves with the British and he
 
 00:12:04.258 --> 00:12:05.158
 ends up in Jamaica.
 
 00:12:05.197 --> 00:12:07.298
 He goes to Jamaica and he starts with
 
 00:12:07.318 --> 00:12:09.840
 the first African Baptist church on the
 
 00:12:09.940 --> 00:12:10.720
 island of Jamaica.
 
 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:12.841
 And so what he was doing in the
 
 00:12:12.860 --> 00:12:13.520
 United States,
 
 00:12:13.721 --> 00:12:14.961
 he ends up doing in Jamaica,
 
 00:12:15.182 --> 00:12:16.322
 but he decides to do it as a
 
 00:12:16.361 --> 00:12:18.462
 British subject, not as an American.
 
 00:12:19.278 --> 00:12:20.441
 That's interesting.
 
 00:12:20.461 --> 00:12:22.363
 We're talking with Ronald Angela Johnson.
 
 00:12:22.423 --> 00:12:24.384
 Professor Johnson is the Ralph and Bessie
 
 00:12:24.424 --> 00:12:26.027
 Mae Lynn Chair of History at Baylor
 
 00:12:26.106 --> 00:12:27.769
 University in Waco, Texas.
 
 00:12:28.269 --> 00:12:29.370
 And we're talking about his new book,
 
 00:12:29.429 --> 00:12:30.772
 Entangled Alliances,
 
 00:12:30.851 --> 00:12:33.615
 Racialized Freedom and Atlantic Diplomacy
 
 00:12:33.654 --> 00:12:35.537
 During the American Revolution.
 
 00:12:36.054 --> 00:12:38.496
 which is really a great retelling,
 
 00:12:38.537 --> 00:12:40.999
 reformulation of the American Revolution,
 
 00:12:41.038 --> 00:12:43.721
 very accessible book that I hope is going
 
 00:12:43.740 --> 00:12:45.101
 to be on lots of reading lists as
 
 00:12:45.121 --> 00:12:47.083
 an introduction to the story of the
 
 00:12:47.104 --> 00:12:48.105
 American Revolution,
 
 00:12:48.125 --> 00:12:49.566
 because you do connect all of these
 
 00:12:50.206 --> 00:12:53.149
 previously kind of disconnected pieces to
 
 00:12:53.188 --> 00:12:53.308
 it.
 
 00:12:54.549 --> 00:12:58.894
 You also have an interesting and just
 
 00:12:58.933 --> 00:13:00.534
 another interesting connection that popped
 
 00:13:00.575 --> 00:13:02.657
 up to me was that during the Siege
 
 00:13:02.777 --> 00:13:03.518
 of Savannah,
 
 00:13:04.719 --> 00:13:04.879
 the
 
 00:13:05.629 --> 00:13:07.649
 Governor of Georgia was Jacques Marie
 
 00:13:07.669 --> 00:13:08.210
 Prevost,
 
 00:13:08.230 --> 00:13:10.091
 whose wife Theodosia was up in New Jersey
 
 00:13:10.110 --> 00:13:11.370
 having an affair with Aaron Burr.
 
 00:13:14.851 --> 00:13:16.753
 Okay, so I have to say.
 
 00:13:16.773 --> 00:13:18.313
 You can't make this up.
 
 00:13:18.394 --> 00:13:19.494
 No, you really can't.
 
 00:13:19.614 --> 00:13:21.835
 And for folks who watch the musical
 
 00:13:21.875 --> 00:13:22.715
 Hamilton, right,
 
 00:13:22.735 --> 00:13:24.395
 like I had to put that in there.
 
 00:13:24.775 --> 00:13:26.876
 And I will say I did not realize
 
 00:13:26.917 --> 00:13:28.418
 that until I was researching for the book.
 
 00:13:28.437 --> 00:13:29.658
 And I thought, wait a minute.
 
 00:13:30.068 --> 00:13:32.250
 many theodosians can there be in the world
 
 00:13:32.289 --> 00:13:34.750
 right and like so i put it together
 
 00:13:34.770 --> 00:13:36.511
 and i literally like oh my gosh this
 
 00:13:36.532 --> 00:13:38.851
 was happening at the she's yeah she's
 
 00:13:38.871 --> 00:13:41.133
 having an affair while they're trying to
 
 00:13:41.153 --> 00:13:42.933
 negotiate the siege of savannah and i just
 
 00:13:42.953 --> 00:13:45.995
 thought wow um what i mean i just
 
 00:13:46.014 --> 00:13:47.135
 thought that was just one of those little
 
 00:13:47.196 --> 00:13:48.895
 nuggets that you find and bob you know
 
 00:13:48.916 --> 00:13:50.657
 how this goes right there's a nugget that
 
 00:13:50.677 --> 00:13:52.857
 you find and the book probably would have
 
 00:13:52.878 --> 00:13:54.518
 been fine without it but i said no
 
 00:13:54.619 --> 00:13:55.658
 i have to include it
 
 00:13:56.458 --> 00:13:58.440
 It just shows all these different things.
 
 00:13:59.019 --> 00:14:00.961
 It fits the theme and the mantra of
 
 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:01.522
 the book,
 
 00:14:01.861 --> 00:14:03.982
 that there are all these personal things
 
 00:14:04.023 --> 00:14:09.245
 going on in this great global battle,
 
 00:14:09.424 --> 00:14:10.966
 this great global engagement.
 
 00:14:11.186 --> 00:14:12.807
 There are all these personal stories that
 
 00:14:12.846 --> 00:14:16.187
 are happening within that that are having
 
 00:14:16.248 --> 00:14:17.548
 major impacts on the lives of these
 
 00:14:17.589 --> 00:14:17.849
 people.
 
 00:14:18.634 --> 00:14:20.076
 Yeah, it's really amazing.
 
 00:14:20.176 --> 00:14:21.995
 And your retelling of the Siege of
 
 00:14:22.056 --> 00:14:24.197
 Savannah is really a powerful piece of the
 
 00:14:24.236 --> 00:14:24.417
 book.
 
 00:14:24.957 --> 00:14:26.457
 And there's something like a third of the
 
 00:14:26.498 --> 00:14:28.099
 forces were actually people of color.
 
 00:14:28.479 --> 00:14:30.379
 This is looking at men fighting on both
 
 00:14:30.419 --> 00:14:33.421
 sides.
 
 00:14:34.562 --> 00:14:37.202
 That part, and for our listeners here,
 
 00:14:37.222 --> 00:14:38.864
 Bob is referencing chapter six of the
 
 00:14:38.943 --> 00:14:39.323
 book.
 
 00:14:40.264 --> 00:14:44.066
 I found that part, and I
 
 00:14:46.451 --> 00:14:48.394
 it was one of the more difficult parts
 
 00:14:48.433 --> 00:14:49.916
 to write because of the differences,
 
 00:14:49.936 --> 00:14:51.538
 but it was one of the more gratifying
 
 00:14:51.677 --> 00:14:54.280
 parts to write because you do see in
 
 00:14:54.301 --> 00:14:56.624
 that one, in that one battle.
 
 00:14:56.725 --> 00:14:56.985
 Right.
 
 00:14:57.065 --> 00:14:58.626
 And I do want to say on behalf
 
 00:14:58.826 --> 00:15:00.408
 of the, you know,
 
 00:15:00.448 --> 00:15:01.711
 the city of Savannah and the city of
 
 00:15:01.750 --> 00:15:02.392
 Savannah, um,
 
 00:15:02.818 --> 00:15:04.980
 it's it's a it's a pretty overlooked i
 
 00:15:05.142 --> 00:15:06.964
 i think it's a fairly overlooked battle
 
 00:15:07.244 --> 00:15:08.765
 and i mean there's a good reason for
 
 00:15:08.806 --> 00:15:10.827
 that it's it's a u.s defeat right it's
 
 00:15:10.847 --> 00:15:13.129
 an allied defeat and so it doesn't really
 
 00:15:13.250 --> 00:15:15.211
 work in the narrative right so i totally
 
 00:15:15.253 --> 00:15:18.235
 understand that but what you have in that
 
 00:15:18.275 --> 00:15:18.635
 battle
 
 00:15:19.557 --> 00:15:22.139
 on the british side which britain had
 
 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.023
 britain had taken over uh savannah in
 
 00:15:25.062 --> 00:15:26.304
 about seventeen seventy eight and they
 
 00:15:26.365 --> 00:15:27.985
 they hold it really they have a stronghold
 
 00:15:28.005 --> 00:15:30.489
 there with those ramparts many of them
 
 00:15:30.548 --> 00:15:31.870
 that are still there today at least you
 
 00:15:32.091 --> 00:15:33.412
 you can go to savannah you can see
 
 00:15:33.471 --> 00:15:34.413
 where the siege happened
 
 00:15:35.173 --> 00:15:37.514
 And many of those on the British side,
 
 00:15:37.553 --> 00:15:37.995
 well, actually,
 
 00:15:38.054 --> 00:15:40.034
 all those on the British side were built
 
 00:15:40.075 --> 00:15:41.215
 by Black men,
 
 00:15:41.914 --> 00:15:43.794
 formerly enslaved Black men that took
 
 00:15:43.815 --> 00:15:45.596
 advantage of the British offer,
 
 00:15:46.196 --> 00:15:48.176
 going back to the Dunmore Proclamation,
 
 00:15:48.196 --> 00:15:49.615
 right, to say, if you come fight,
 
 00:15:49.655 --> 00:15:51.777
 if you leave your enslaver,
 
 00:15:51.856 --> 00:15:52.756
 your American enslaver,
 
 00:15:52.777 --> 00:15:53.636
 and come fight for us,
 
 00:15:53.736 --> 00:15:55.116
 we will give you freedom, right?
 
 00:15:55.738 --> 00:15:56.518
 And they had, I mean,
 
 00:15:56.538 --> 00:15:57.618
 there were two hundred,
 
 00:15:58.197 --> 00:16:00.957
 two to five hundred men who built those
 
 00:16:00.998 --> 00:16:03.418
 ramparts behind which there are British
 
 00:16:03.458 --> 00:16:03.918
 soldiers.
 
 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:06.620
 And then on the other side of that,
 
 00:16:06.701 --> 00:16:08.322
 here's where it gets fascinating.
 
 00:16:08.982 --> 00:16:10.423
 Here's where it really gets fascinating.
 
 00:16:10.683 --> 00:16:12.285
 So you have black men on the British
 
 00:16:12.326 --> 00:16:13.667
 side wanting their freedom.
 
 00:16:14.587 --> 00:16:15.629
 So they're fighting with the British.
 
 00:16:16.309 --> 00:16:17.370
 On the other side,
 
 00:16:17.711 --> 00:16:21.413
 you have white Georgia militiamen and
 
 00:16:21.533 --> 00:16:23.035
 other American patriots
 
 00:16:23.615 --> 00:16:26.037
 You have white Frenchmen who've come from
 
 00:16:26.116 --> 00:16:27.658
 France and some from the Caribbean.
 
 00:16:28.278 --> 00:16:31.720
 And then you have around five hundred and
 
 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:35.722
 fifty black men from Saint-Domingue who
 
 00:16:35.763 --> 00:16:38.465
 are coming to fight on behalf of the
 
 00:16:38.585 --> 00:16:39.304
 of the Americans.
 
 00:16:39.666 --> 00:16:41.246
 And so you have and just in terms
 
 00:16:41.307 --> 00:16:43.248
 of the the men of the soldiers of
 
 00:16:43.268 --> 00:16:43.648
 color,
 
 00:16:44.229 --> 00:16:47.010
 you have black men fighting black men.
 
 00:16:47.932 --> 00:16:48.111
 One,
 
 00:16:48.131 --> 00:16:50.599
 to maintain British tyranny in the United
 
 00:16:50.659 --> 00:16:51.160
 States,
 
 00:16:51.501 --> 00:16:53.508
 but they would get their freedom by doing
 
 00:16:53.528 --> 00:16:53.668
 that,
 
 00:16:53.687 --> 00:16:54.932
 their personal freedom by doing that.
 
 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:57.822
 The men from Haiti are fighting with the
 
 00:16:57.881 --> 00:17:00.222
 United States to help the Americans break
 
 00:17:00.263 --> 00:17:01.783
 away and become independent.
 
 00:17:02.284 --> 00:17:04.566
 And what they're hoping for is because
 
 00:17:04.625 --> 00:17:06.827
 many of them are already free in
 
 00:17:06.907 --> 00:17:07.607
 Saint-Domingue,
 
 00:17:08.008 --> 00:17:09.789
 they are fighting for equality.
 
 00:17:10.430 --> 00:17:11.230
 They believe,
 
 00:17:11.330 --> 00:17:12.590
 and we see this in the American,
 
 00:17:12.671 --> 00:17:13.811
 we see this in the United States,
 
 00:17:13.852 --> 00:17:16.213
 that by their military prowess,
 
 00:17:16.253 --> 00:17:17.894
 by being a combat veteran,
 
 00:17:18.355 --> 00:17:20.457
 then they will deserve better treatment
 
 00:17:20.896 --> 00:17:22.298
 back in their home country.
 
 00:17:23.218 --> 00:17:24.078
 And then that's going to have
 
 00:17:24.199 --> 00:17:25.039
 ramifications.
 
 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:27.080
 A decade down the road,
 
 00:17:27.340 --> 00:17:28.602
 but it doesn't happen right away.
 
 00:17:28.622 --> 00:17:30.563
 But you see black men fighting on
 
 00:17:30.603 --> 00:17:32.505
 different sides of the American Revolution
 
 00:17:33.345 --> 00:17:35.086
 for their own personal reasons.
 
 00:17:36.527 --> 00:17:37.548
 And we do see, as you said,
 
 00:17:37.567 --> 00:17:38.429
 a decade down the road,
 
 00:17:38.469 --> 00:17:40.170
 these men from Saint-Domingue who then are
 
 00:17:40.529 --> 00:17:42.931
 part of this uprising against the French
 
 00:17:43.132 --> 00:17:43.711
 on that island.
 
 00:17:44.694 --> 00:17:46.976
 I go out of my way to try
 
 00:17:46.996 --> 00:17:49.938
 to identify the men who fought in that,
 
 00:17:49.978 --> 00:17:51.199
 because I think it's important, right?
 
 00:17:51.219 --> 00:17:52.799
 Because, and this part,
 
 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:54.661
 and I wanna say to our listeners also,
 
 00:17:54.721 --> 00:17:54.961
 right?
 
 00:17:55.421 --> 00:17:57.501
 I'm not the first person to talk about
 
 00:17:58.143 --> 00:17:59.363
 the Chasseurs Volontaires,
 
 00:17:59.383 --> 00:18:00.923
 which is that battalion of black men.
 
 00:18:01.304 --> 00:18:02.644
 I'm not the first person to talk about
 
 00:18:02.704 --> 00:18:03.846
 their involvement in the Siege of
 
 00:18:03.865 --> 00:18:04.346
 Savannah,
 
 00:18:04.905 --> 00:18:07.567
 but I do think I enlarged the story.
 
 00:18:07.667 --> 00:18:10.028
 And part of that enlargement was me going
 
 00:18:10.068 --> 00:18:11.390
 to the French archives
 
 00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:14.330
 and really digging through the military
 
 00:18:14.490 --> 00:18:17.192
 records in French to bring that story,
 
 00:18:17.551 --> 00:18:18.952
 give it a more expanded story.
 
 00:18:19.313 --> 00:18:21.713
 And by naming the men like Andre Rigaud,
 
 00:18:22.713 --> 00:18:25.674
 Henri Christophe, and others in that,
 
 00:18:25.694 --> 00:18:27.276
 what you see, John Baptiste Bentley,
 
 00:18:28.439 --> 00:18:29.358
 A decade later.
 
 00:18:29.398 --> 00:18:31.460
 So that the season is seventeen seventy
 
 00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:34.180
 nine when the French Revolution kicks off
 
 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:35.579
 in seventeen eighty nine.
 
 00:18:35.861 --> 00:18:39.721
 These same men are going to become leaders
 
 00:18:39.901 --> 00:18:41.061
 of what we call the Haitian.
 
 00:18:41.102 --> 00:18:42.461
 What is the Haitian revolution?
 
 00:18:42.622 --> 00:18:43.041
 Right.
 
 00:18:43.102 --> 00:18:45.422
 When they declare their rights from France
 
 00:18:45.481 --> 00:18:47.383
 and eventually become independent.
 
 00:18:47.702 --> 00:18:49.182
 And one of the arguments I try to
 
 00:18:49.242 --> 00:18:52.163
 make in the book is that that experience
 
 00:18:52.203 --> 00:18:52.844
 in Savannah.
 
 00:18:53.637 --> 00:18:56.159
 was both instructive and inspiring.
 
 00:18:56.980 --> 00:18:57.059
 One,
 
 00:18:57.099 --> 00:18:58.901
 it gave them firsthand experience because
 
 00:18:58.941 --> 00:19:00.642
 many of them are going to become military
 
 00:19:00.721 --> 00:19:03.163
 leaders in the Haitian Revolution before
 
 00:19:03.182 --> 00:19:04.243
 they become political leaders,
 
 00:19:04.723 --> 00:19:08.365
 but it also demonstrated to them that a
 
 00:19:08.486 --> 00:19:11.528
 European monarch can be overthrown.
 
 00:19:11.867 --> 00:19:13.209
 A military tyranny,
 
 00:19:13.608 --> 00:19:18.011
 an imperial military can be overthrown,
 
 00:19:18.412 --> 00:19:20.492
 and they carried that out in the
 
 00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:25.321
 We're talking with Ronald Angelo Johnson,
 
 00:19:25.362 --> 00:19:28.424
 the Ralph and Bessie May Lynn Chair of
 
 00:19:28.464 --> 00:19:29.945
 History at Baylor University,
 
 00:19:30.046 --> 00:19:32.127
 author of Entangled Alliances,
 
 00:19:32.208 --> 00:19:33.288
 Racialized Freedom,
 
 00:19:33.308 --> 00:19:35.310
 and Atlantic Diplomacy During the American
 
 00:19:35.371 --> 00:19:35.971
 Revolution.
 
 00:19:37.132 --> 00:19:39.713
 And you also have the Siege of Savannah
 
 00:19:39.773 --> 00:19:42.175
 happening at the same time as the forming
 
 00:19:42.195 --> 00:19:43.718
 of the Massachusetts Constitution.
 
 00:19:44.057 --> 00:19:44.939
 And you really do a good job of
 
 00:19:45.278 --> 00:19:48.020
 tying these seemingly disconnected things
 
 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:48.741
 together.
 
 00:19:51.398 --> 00:19:53.102
 Again, Bob,
 
 00:19:53.142 --> 00:19:54.704
 I just want to thank you for just
 
 00:19:54.724 --> 00:19:55.946
 how closely you've read the book,
 
 00:19:55.967 --> 00:19:58.592
 because I really did try to illustrate
 
 00:20:00.042 --> 00:20:02.965
 that what was going on in Port-au-Prince,
 
 00:20:03.026 --> 00:20:03.747
 in Saint-Domingue,
 
 00:20:04.007 --> 00:20:05.729
 what was going on in Savannah,
 
 00:20:05.808 --> 00:20:07.791
 and what was going on in Boston at
 
 00:20:07.811 --> 00:20:08.071
 the time.
 
 00:20:08.271 --> 00:20:09.834
 These things are connected, right?
 
 00:20:09.874 --> 00:20:13.017
 These things are building on one another.
 
 00:20:13.278 --> 00:20:16.300
 And what was happening in Boston around
 
 00:20:16.320 --> 00:20:19.263
 that same time is that you have Black
 
 00:20:19.344 --> 00:20:20.905
 people filing suit
 
 00:20:21.747 --> 00:20:24.188
 for freedom and it makes it to the
 
 00:20:24.248 --> 00:20:25.648
 Massachusetts Supreme Court.
 
 00:20:26.469 --> 00:20:28.329
 And what they one of the things that
 
 00:20:28.390 --> 00:20:32.751
 the judges use to adjudicate this case is
 
 00:20:32.771 --> 00:20:35.393
 they adjudicate the Massachusetts State
 
 00:20:35.553 --> 00:20:38.354
 Commonwealth Constitution that was drafted
 
 00:20:38.913 --> 00:20:41.694
 by by John Adams.
 
 00:20:42.035 --> 00:20:44.236
 And they use his preface where he states
 
 00:20:44.375 --> 00:20:46.856
 outright that men that men are created
 
 00:20:46.936 --> 00:20:49.317
 equal and they use that to say slavery
 
 00:20:49.377 --> 00:20:50.618
 cannot exist.
 
 00:20:53.548 --> 00:20:55.529
 in our commonwealth if this is our
 
 00:20:55.569 --> 00:20:56.490
 founding principle.
 
 00:20:57.652 --> 00:21:01.713
 And I think that is such an important
 
 00:21:01.773 --> 00:21:03.595
 thing for the book and for readers to
 
 00:21:03.634 --> 00:21:06.596
 know is that the United States as a
 
 00:21:06.656 --> 00:21:06.997
 whole,
 
 00:21:07.057 --> 00:21:08.938
 and I'm on kind of a soapbox here
 
 00:21:08.958 --> 00:21:09.838
 and I realize that,
 
 00:21:10.419 --> 00:21:13.300
 but the United States as a whole had
 
 00:21:15.541 --> 00:21:16.221
 a rubric.
 
 00:21:16.342 --> 00:21:18.683
 They had a, it wasn't,
 
 00:21:19.025 --> 00:21:20.425
 it was no need to wait.
 
 00:21:21.047 --> 00:21:21.626
 I had no need.
 
 00:21:22.228 --> 00:21:22.567
 It didn't,
 
 00:21:22.587 --> 00:21:24.148
 we didn't have to wait till eighteen sixty
 
 00:21:24.189 --> 00:21:24.430
 five.
 
 00:21:24.809 --> 00:21:27.192
 Massachusetts had already shown that if a
 
 00:21:27.231 --> 00:21:29.855
 nation says all men are created equal,
 
 00:21:30.255 --> 00:21:32.836
 then therefore legally after that,
 
 00:21:32.957 --> 00:21:34.759
 this must be the case that you cannot
 
 00:21:34.798 --> 00:21:37.300
 have slavery if all are created equal.
 
 00:21:37.701 --> 00:21:39.844
 And so I just thought Massachusetts
 
 00:21:40.717 --> 00:21:43.077
 gave such a great example for the rest
 
 00:21:43.137 --> 00:21:44.419
 of the nation to follow.
 
 00:21:44.898 --> 00:21:47.240
 And when we look at American history,
 
 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.320
 when we look at the revolution,
 
 00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:53.201
 what we see throughout are the choices not
 
 00:21:53.242 --> 00:21:53.682
 taken.
 
 00:21:54.282 --> 00:21:57.104
 And what happened in Massachusetts is a
 
 00:21:57.163 --> 00:22:00.965
 really good emblem of choices that the
 
 00:22:01.026 --> 00:22:03.386
 rest of the country chose not to take.
 
 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:06.161
 That's really an interesting way of
 
 00:22:06.201 --> 00:22:06.641
 putting it,
 
 00:22:06.681 --> 00:22:09.481
 looking at history really as people making
 
 00:22:09.521 --> 00:22:10.342
 these choices.
 
 00:22:10.362 --> 00:22:12.103
 Sometimes we think it's preordained and it
 
 00:22:12.143 --> 00:22:14.083
 could only have happened one way.
 
 00:22:14.742 --> 00:22:15.763
 And then looking at this and thinking
 
 00:22:15.784 --> 00:22:17.964
 about the consequences had they decided
 
 00:22:18.105 --> 00:22:19.164
 one way or the other.
 
 00:22:19.224 --> 00:22:21.145
 And again,
 
 00:22:21.185 --> 00:22:23.246
 you have the same time the Massachusetts
 
 00:22:23.286 --> 00:22:23.866
 is doing this,
 
 00:22:23.906 --> 00:22:25.707
 there are twenty Africans in Portsmouth
 
 00:22:25.727 --> 00:22:27.327
 who are petitioning for their freedom.
 
 00:22:27.847 --> 00:22:30.368
 That is a story that ends much
 
 00:22:30.409 --> 00:22:30.909
 differently.
 
 00:22:32.067 --> 00:22:32.508
 Yes.
 
 00:22:33.607 --> 00:22:35.910
 And I was very when I was able
 
 00:22:35.970 --> 00:22:38.652
 to when I was able to place the
 
 00:22:38.692 --> 00:22:41.153
 twenty Africans in Portsmouth with the way
 
 00:22:41.173 --> 00:22:43.855
 I start with the with the Africans who
 
 00:22:43.974 --> 00:22:44.875
 in Chapter three,
 
 00:22:44.915 --> 00:22:46.396
 I believe it is where Africans begin to
 
 00:22:46.436 --> 00:22:49.759
 petition in the newspapers in Boston
 
 00:22:49.798 --> 00:22:50.380
 newspapers.
 
 00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:50.640
 Right.
 
 00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:52.221
 And I want and I want to give
 
 00:22:52.300 --> 00:22:53.541
 a huge I just.
 
 00:22:55.730 --> 00:22:56.971
 The publisher of the newspaper,
 
 00:22:57.030 --> 00:22:58.490
 whose name I'm blanking on at the moment,
 
 00:22:58.631 --> 00:23:01.012
 but it was a white publisher who chose
 
 00:23:01.032 --> 00:23:03.433
 to run those petitions in Boston.
 
 00:23:04.114 --> 00:23:05.394
 He chose to publish,
 
 00:23:05.454 --> 00:23:06.435
 and it's on the front page.
 
 00:23:06.455 --> 00:23:07.516
 He doesn't bury them.
 
 00:23:08.136 --> 00:23:10.438
 It's front page where these Africans are
 
 00:23:10.478 --> 00:23:13.980
 petitioning the Massachusetts Assembly for
 
 00:23:14.180 --> 00:23:14.480
 their...
 
 00:23:16.060 --> 00:23:16.961
 for their freedom.
 
 00:23:17.362 --> 00:23:19.804
 And now I cannot make a one-to-one
 
 00:23:19.824 --> 00:23:20.344
 connection,
 
 00:23:20.824 --> 00:23:23.326
 but I think I lean this way in
 
 00:23:23.346 --> 00:23:25.487
 the book that those twenty Africans in
 
 00:23:25.547 --> 00:23:28.028
 Portsmouth had to see what happened in
 
 00:23:28.088 --> 00:23:28.609
 Boston.
 
 00:23:28.630 --> 00:23:29.269
 Right.
 
 00:23:29.289 --> 00:23:30.990
 To say, we're going to try that here.
 
 00:23:31.652 --> 00:23:32.031
 And again,
 
 00:23:32.112 --> 00:23:33.833
 I give a great deal of credit to
 
 00:23:33.893 --> 00:23:34.653
 the publisher,
 
 00:23:34.673 --> 00:23:36.394
 the white American publisher that
 
 00:23:36.454 --> 00:23:37.996
 publishes these petitions.
 
 00:23:38.596 --> 00:23:41.478
 But slavery won't be abolished in New
 
 00:23:41.518 --> 00:23:42.358
 Hampshire.
 
 00:23:42.479 --> 00:23:42.558
 Yeah.
 
 00:23:43.018 --> 00:23:44.919
 for decades after that.
 
 00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:46.740
 And again, it was, and those,
 
 00:23:46.901 --> 00:23:48.020
 these are neighbors, right?
 
 00:23:48.080 --> 00:23:51.503
 These are Commonwealth state neighbors and
 
 00:23:51.624 --> 00:23:53.085
 right alongside each other,
 
 00:23:53.664 --> 00:23:56.047
 Massachusetts takes one decision and the
 
 00:23:56.086 --> 00:23:58.488
 leaders of New Hampshire take a completely
 
 00:23:58.528 --> 00:23:59.088
 different one.
 
 00:23:59.855 --> 00:24:00.394
 It's interesting,
 
 00:24:00.976 --> 00:24:03.478
 but you do a tremendous job with the
 
 00:24:03.518 --> 00:24:04.999
 newspapers themselves,
 
 00:24:05.038 --> 00:24:06.740
 both the American newspapers,
 
 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:09.000
 but also official Americans,
 
 00:24:09.040 --> 00:24:10.801
 this newspaper in Haiti,
 
 00:24:10.821 --> 00:24:12.983
 where you really use how they're covering
 
 00:24:13.003 --> 00:24:14.464
 what's happening in North America.
 
 00:24:15.990 --> 00:24:16.551
 That,
 
 00:24:17.132 --> 00:24:19.294
 covering the Affiche American was one of
 
 00:24:19.334 --> 00:24:21.556
 the fun, it was fun.
 
 00:24:22.176 --> 00:24:24.719
 It was a lot of fun to write
 
 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:25.519
 those parts, right?
 
 00:24:25.539 --> 00:24:26.200
 To go in,
 
 00:24:26.520 --> 00:24:29.282
 it's a newspaper completely in French,
 
 00:24:29.864 --> 00:24:31.464
 and it was started in a,
 
 00:24:31.585 --> 00:24:33.446
 in Port-au-Prince.
 
 00:24:34.087 --> 00:24:37.109
 And what I found as I'm reading it,
 
 00:24:37.770 --> 00:24:40.713
 what was so fascinating as I kept reading
 
 00:24:40.794 --> 00:24:41.894
 through it along the way,
 
 00:24:43.603 --> 00:24:46.817
 The publisher in Saint-Domingue was
 
 00:24:46.979 --> 00:24:47.803
 following
 
 00:24:49.506 --> 00:24:51.166
 They were following events in British
 
 00:24:51.227 --> 00:24:52.748
 North America and then the United States.
 
 00:24:52.768 --> 00:24:54.528
 I mean, almost as they were happening.
 
 00:24:54.548 --> 00:24:55.469
 I mean, within weeks.
 
 00:24:56.128 --> 00:24:58.369
 So people in Saint-Domingue knew what was
 
 00:24:58.410 --> 00:25:01.391
 going on in Charleston, in Boston,
 
 00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:02.171
 in Philadelphia.
 
 00:25:02.330 --> 00:25:03.571
 They knew about the Stamp Act.
 
 00:25:03.872 --> 00:25:05.271
 They knew about the Townshend Act.
 
 00:25:05.471 --> 00:25:07.113
 They knew about George Washington when he
 
 00:25:07.153 --> 00:25:09.054
 got appointed as commander-in-chief.
 
 00:25:09.253 --> 00:25:11.213
 They followed this really closely.
 
 00:25:11.654 --> 00:25:13.174
 And on the flip side, Bob,
 
 00:25:13.234 --> 00:25:14.736
 here's where I was very surprised.
 
 00:25:15.583 --> 00:25:18.326
 American newspapers were following what
 
 00:25:18.346 --> 00:25:20.028
 was going on in Saint-Domingue.
 
 00:25:20.469 --> 00:25:23.512
 Because as white British subjects are
 
 00:25:24.974 --> 00:25:27.417
 making protests and petitions against the
 
 00:25:27.458 --> 00:25:28.278
 British crown,
 
 00:25:29.299 --> 00:25:30.682
 white and black
 
 00:25:32.425 --> 00:25:34.246
 inhabitants of Saint-Domingue are making
 
 00:25:34.307 --> 00:25:36.288
 petitions against the French crown.
 
 00:25:36.887 --> 00:25:38.308
 And there are different reactions.
 
 00:25:38.628 --> 00:25:39.669
 And these newspapers,
 
 00:25:40.029 --> 00:25:41.349
 and you mentioned it earlier in our
 
 00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:42.030
 conversation,
 
 00:25:42.290 --> 00:25:44.051
 because you have such a brisk trade
 
 00:25:44.551 --> 00:25:47.353
 between the British North America and
 
 00:25:47.413 --> 00:25:47.854
 Saint-Domingue,
 
 00:25:47.894 --> 00:25:49.835
 the ships are carrying this news.
 
 00:25:50.075 --> 00:25:51.715
 The ship's captains, the sailors,
 
 00:25:52.135 --> 00:25:53.656
 they're carrying news back and forth
 
 00:25:53.676 --> 00:25:55.518
 between Boston and Port-au-Prince.
 
 00:25:56.117 --> 00:25:58.701
 Savannah and Cape, Cape, Cape Francais.
 
 00:25:59.001 --> 00:26:00.884
 And so and this news is being reported.
 
 00:26:00.963 --> 00:26:04.548
 And so what I found really fascinating is
 
 00:26:04.587 --> 00:26:07.672
 that American readers and San Domingo
 
 00:26:07.711 --> 00:26:09.173
 readers were not isolated.
 
 00:26:09.634 --> 00:26:11.115
 They knew what was going on.
 
 00:26:11.236 --> 00:26:12.897
 It wasn't like social media today or
 
 00:26:12.917 --> 00:26:13.759
 anything like that.
 
 00:26:18.365 --> 00:26:19.807
 It wasn't like social media or anything
 
 00:26:19.827 --> 00:26:21.971
 like that, but it was,
 
 00:26:22.852 --> 00:26:25.153
 the newspapers did allow people thousands
 
 00:26:25.173 --> 00:26:26.915
 of miles away or hundreds of miles away
 
 00:26:27.237 --> 00:26:29.819
 to know what their neighbors to the north
 
 00:26:29.859 --> 00:26:31.221
 and neighbors to the south were doing
 
 00:26:31.602 --> 00:26:32.323
 against tyranny.
 
 00:26:33.362 --> 00:26:36.042
 It's really an amazing way you connect all
 
 00:26:36.103 --> 00:26:36.643
 of this.
 
 00:26:36.702 --> 00:26:37.463
 And, you know,
 
 00:26:37.544 --> 00:26:39.124
 Edward Stevens or Ned Stevens,
 
 00:26:39.144 --> 00:26:40.805
 he's a boyhood friend of Hamilton's,
 
 00:26:40.825 --> 00:26:42.846
 and then he becomes American consul in
 
 00:26:42.925 --> 00:26:44.946
 Haiti, but he's also involved in,
 
 00:26:45.426 --> 00:26:47.208
 these connections are really quite
 
 00:26:47.587 --> 00:26:49.669
 fascinating that you have picked up on and
 
 00:26:49.709 --> 00:26:52.009
 presented in the book.
 
 00:26:52.589 --> 00:26:54.151
 Okay, so, and Bob,
 
 00:26:54.171 --> 00:26:56.270
 you've been teaching American Revolution a
 
 00:26:56.290 --> 00:26:57.451
 long time like myself.
 
 00:26:57.571 --> 00:26:58.731
 And one of the things you find out
 
 00:26:58.872 --> 00:27:00.353
 is many people,
 
 00:27:00.413 --> 00:27:02.153
 many of these people who become famous
 
 00:27:03.288 --> 00:27:04.009
 They were young.
 
 00:27:04.430 --> 00:27:05.311
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:27:05.332 --> 00:27:07.295
 They are young men and women at the
 
 00:27:07.335 --> 00:27:07.675
 time.
 
 00:27:07.796 --> 00:27:07.976
 Right.
 
 00:27:08.016 --> 00:27:09.479
 We see them when they get older and
 
 00:27:09.499 --> 00:27:10.922
 they're wearing their wigs and things like
 
 00:27:10.942 --> 00:27:11.182
 that.
 
 00:27:11.623 --> 00:27:14.347
 But I thought it was really important to
 
 00:27:14.407 --> 00:27:16.131
 talk about Edward Stevens.
 
 00:27:17.051 --> 00:27:18.192
 Alexander Hamilton,
 
 00:27:18.913 --> 00:27:20.134
 Jean-Jacques Dessalines,
 
 00:27:20.355 --> 00:27:21.655
 and Andre Rigaud in particular.
 
 00:27:21.796 --> 00:27:25.578
 So you have Edward Stevens and Alexander
 
 00:27:25.618 --> 00:27:26.019
 Hamilton.
 
 00:27:26.138 --> 00:27:27.839
 They're friends on the island of St.
 
 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:29.221
 Croix in the Caribbean.
 
 00:27:29.981 --> 00:27:31.323
 And both of them are going to come
 
 00:27:31.363 --> 00:27:33.625
 to New York to get their education.
 
 00:27:33.704 --> 00:27:35.665
 Both are going to go to King's College,
 
 00:27:35.685 --> 00:27:37.827
 which is now Columbia University.
 
 00:27:38.428 --> 00:27:40.148
 And so they're going to see the revolution
 
 00:27:40.209 --> 00:27:42.510
 happening around them in New York in
 
 00:27:42.570 --> 00:27:43.611
 seventeen seventy four,
 
 00:27:43.750 --> 00:27:44.791
 seventeen seventy five.
 
 00:27:45.332 --> 00:27:46.633
 They're going to have different reactions
 
 00:27:46.653 --> 00:27:46.952
 to it.
 
 00:27:47.993 --> 00:27:49.214
 Alexander Hamilton is going to throw
 
 00:27:49.255 --> 00:27:51.455
 himself wholeheartedly into the
 
 00:27:51.496 --> 00:27:52.057
 revolution.
 
 00:27:52.416 --> 00:27:52.636
 Right.
 
 00:27:52.676 --> 00:27:54.897
 And it make it helps make him who
 
 00:27:54.938 --> 00:27:55.638
 he becomes.
 
 00:27:56.618 --> 00:27:57.420
 Edward Stevens,
 
 00:27:57.559 --> 00:27:58.760
 who had been there a couple of years
 
 00:27:58.800 --> 00:28:01.402
 before him, he decides that, yeah,
 
 00:28:01.481 --> 00:28:02.603
 I see this going on,
 
 00:28:02.843 --> 00:28:04.183
 but I'm going to go to medical school
 
 00:28:04.223 --> 00:28:04.864
 in Edinburgh,
 
 00:28:04.983 --> 00:28:06.285
 which is what I wanted to do all
 
 00:28:06.325 --> 00:28:06.665
 along.
 
 00:28:06.685 --> 00:28:07.165
 Exactly.
 
 00:28:09.708 --> 00:28:11.388
 And so they stay in communication with
 
 00:28:11.409 --> 00:28:12.789
 each other and they keep up with what's
 
 00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:13.290
 going on.
 
 00:28:13.691 --> 00:28:15.992
 But they have very different reactions to
 
 00:28:16.032 --> 00:28:18.214
 the revolution happening around them.
 
 00:28:18.375 --> 00:28:19.496
 In Saint-Domingue,
 
 00:28:19.796 --> 00:28:20.856
 Jean-Jacques Dessalines,
 
 00:28:20.876 --> 00:28:21.837
 during the same period,
 
 00:28:22.157 --> 00:28:24.980
 he was an enslaved black man when this
 
 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:25.580
 was going on.
 
 00:28:26.374 --> 00:28:26.693
 Andre.
 
 00:28:26.973 --> 00:28:29.076
 So he's on a he's he's working on
 
 00:28:29.155 --> 00:28:30.916
 a plantation there in Saint-Domingue.
 
 00:28:31.497 --> 00:28:32.377
 Andre, we go.
 
 00:28:32.798 --> 00:28:34.858
 He is a he was born free.
 
 00:28:34.898 --> 00:28:36.359
 He's a he's a mixed parentage,
 
 00:28:36.460 --> 00:28:37.339
 but a man of color.
 
 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:38.861
 At the same time,
 
 00:28:38.921 --> 00:28:40.682
 around the same time that Alexander
 
 00:28:40.721 --> 00:28:42.303
 Hamilton and Edward Stevens are going to
 
 00:28:42.343 --> 00:28:42.864
 New York.
 
 00:28:43.463 --> 00:28:44.505
 to gain an education.
 
 00:28:45.145 --> 00:28:47.769
 Andre Rigaud is going to Bordeaux in
 
 00:28:47.849 --> 00:28:49.511
 France to gain an education.
 
 00:28:49.531 --> 00:28:50.133
 Wow.
 
 00:28:50.333 --> 00:28:54.538
 And he comes back to Saint-Domingue as a
 
 00:28:54.578 --> 00:28:55.160
 goldsmith.
 
 00:28:55.220 --> 00:28:56.561
 It was a huge trade.
 
 00:28:56.622 --> 00:28:57.762
 Gold is very valuable.
 
 00:28:58.084 --> 00:28:59.605
 Goldsmithing was an incredibly...
 
 00:29:00.726 --> 00:29:02.346
 lucrative business to be in,
 
 00:29:02.807 --> 00:29:03.727
 a trade to have,
 
 00:29:03.767 --> 00:29:04.747
 and he has his own business.
 
 00:29:05.086 --> 00:29:07.666
 And he ends up becoming a leader in
 
 00:29:07.688 --> 00:29:08.468
 the Haitian Revolution.
 
 00:29:08.887 --> 00:29:10.468
 Alexander Hamilton becomes a leader in the
 
 00:29:10.488 --> 00:29:11.428
 American Revolution,
 
 00:29:11.748 --> 00:29:12.847
 Secretary of Treasury.
 
 00:29:13.229 --> 00:29:16.949
 And then Edward Stevens becomes our
 
 00:29:16.989 --> 00:29:17.548
 ambassador,
 
 00:29:17.568 --> 00:29:19.809
 our minister to Saint-Domingue,
 
 00:29:20.069 --> 00:29:20.869
 which becomes Haiti.
 
 00:29:21.190 --> 00:29:23.109
 And Jean-Jacques Dessalines becomes the
 
 00:29:23.190 --> 00:29:25.770
 first leader of the independent
 
 00:29:26.723 --> 00:29:28.526
 nation of Haiti.
 
 00:29:28.566 --> 00:29:30.008
 But I showed them when they're in their
 
 00:29:30.449 --> 00:29:32.192
 teens and early twenties,
 
 00:29:32.771 --> 00:29:34.815
 so that we realize that when they become
 
 00:29:34.855 --> 00:29:36.837
 these really famous and powerful men,
 
 00:29:37.618 --> 00:29:39.362
 it began very differently.
 
 00:29:40.022 --> 00:29:41.845
 And they all took different paths to get
 
 00:29:41.865 --> 00:29:42.566
 to where they end up.
 
 00:29:43.618 --> 00:29:45.259
 I'm just really sorry that Lin-Manuel
 
 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.361
 Miranda did not read your book.
 
 00:29:48.381 --> 00:29:49.342
 That's such a great story.
 
 00:29:52.962 --> 00:29:54.663
 We're talking with Ron Johnson.
 
 00:29:54.703 --> 00:29:57.224
 Ronald Angela Johnson is the Ralph and
 
 00:29:57.244 --> 00:29:59.246
 Bessie May Lin Chair of History at Baylor
 
 00:29:59.306 --> 00:30:01.846
 University and author most recently of
 
 00:30:01.906 --> 00:30:03.147
 Entangled Alliances,
 
 00:30:03.208 --> 00:30:05.388
 Racialized Freedom and Atlantic Diplomacy
 
 00:30:05.909 --> 00:30:07.348
 During the American Revolution.
 
 00:30:07.630 --> 00:30:09.089
 Now, before we get back to the book,
 
 00:30:09.309 --> 00:30:10.471
 I just wanted to mention
 
 00:30:11.411 --> 00:30:12.571
 When you were young,
 
 00:30:12.612 --> 00:30:14.153
 you were admitted to Baylor but couldn't
 
 00:30:14.173 --> 00:30:14.833
 afford to go there,
 
 00:30:14.853 --> 00:30:16.534
 so you went to another fine college in
 
 00:30:16.574 --> 00:30:17.015
 Texas.
 
 00:30:17.055 --> 00:30:19.596
 I'm just wondering how that perspective
 
 00:30:19.635 --> 00:30:22.278
 now influences you when you're teaching,
 
 00:30:25.098 --> 00:30:29.161
 your story of your own interesting path to
 
 00:30:29.182 --> 00:30:29.862
 an education,
 
 00:30:29.961 --> 00:30:31.542
 to the place where you are right now.
 
 00:30:32.643 --> 00:30:33.844
 Well, no, again, Bob,
 
 00:30:33.884 --> 00:30:35.724
 thank you so much for that question.
 
 00:30:36.144 --> 00:30:37.125
 You're right.
 
 00:30:37.226 --> 00:30:38.146
 I was admitted to Baylor.
 
 00:30:38.186 --> 00:30:39.587
 I could not afford to go to Baylor.
 
 00:30:39.768 --> 00:30:41.709
 I went to Texas State University,
 
 00:30:41.788 --> 00:30:44.191
 a public university to get my bachelor's
 
 00:30:44.211 --> 00:30:45.112
 degree and from there.
 
 00:30:45.612 --> 00:30:46.492
 And then when I,
 
 00:30:46.633 --> 00:30:47.874
 so when I'm at Baylor,
 
 00:30:47.894 --> 00:30:49.934
 when I'm there and I'm in my office,
 
 00:30:50.035 --> 00:30:52.656
 I'm looking out over the Fountain Mall,
 
 00:30:52.696 --> 00:30:53.738
 which is our kind of our center of
 
 00:30:53.778 --> 00:30:54.438
 campus there.
 
 00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:58.681
 I do my best and it really comes
 
 00:30:58.740 --> 00:30:59.520
 out in the teaching.
 
 00:30:59.981 --> 00:31:01.563
 When I see a student struggling,
 
 00:31:02.539 --> 00:31:04.641
 When I see a student who really,
 
 00:31:05.561 --> 00:31:05.902
 you know,
 
 00:31:05.942 --> 00:31:08.123
 didn't have some students come in
 
 00:31:08.143 --> 00:31:09.644
 prepared, they're ready to go.
 
 00:31:09.663 --> 00:31:11.525
 They can do a seminar class because
 
 00:31:11.545 --> 00:31:12.465
 they've done it before.
 
 00:31:12.885 --> 00:31:14.666
 They can they can they can write papers
 
 00:31:14.707 --> 00:31:16.208
 with a cogent argument because they've
 
 00:31:16.228 --> 00:31:16.909
 done it before.
 
 00:31:16.929 --> 00:31:17.949
 Right.
 
 00:31:17.989 --> 00:31:19.029
 What students don't realize,
 
 00:31:19.210 --> 00:31:20.230
 that's a skill set.
 
 00:31:20.810 --> 00:31:22.372
 We're not born with that.
 
 00:31:22.951 --> 00:31:23.991
 Like you learn that.
 
 00:31:24.051 --> 00:31:24.512
 And just some,
 
 00:31:24.792 --> 00:31:26.432
 some students had the opportunity to learn
 
 00:31:26.453 --> 00:31:27.814
 that before they got to Baylor.
 
 00:31:28.453 --> 00:31:30.615
 Now it's my responsibility.
 
 00:31:30.815 --> 00:31:31.955
 It's my charge.
 
 00:31:32.096 --> 00:31:34.436
 It's my, it's my calling.
 
 00:31:35.321 --> 00:31:37.202
 to teach you how to do those things,
 
 00:31:38.304 --> 00:31:39.423
 to teach you how to do it.
 
 00:31:39.463 --> 00:31:41.025
 Now it's gonna take a little more time.
 
 00:31:41.425 --> 00:31:42.746
 It's gonna take a little more work,
 
 00:31:43.247 --> 00:31:44.887
 but there is nothing about,
 
 00:31:45.627 --> 00:31:47.749
 I've come to understand that there is
 
 00:31:47.888 --> 00:31:50.050
 nothing about the educational system in
 
 00:31:50.070 --> 00:31:52.632
 the United States that can't be overcome
 
 00:31:52.991 --> 00:31:56.434
 with time and effort and some care and
 
 00:31:56.515 --> 00:31:57.214
 understanding.
 
 00:31:57.654 --> 00:31:58.855
 And that's what I try to provide.
 
 00:31:58.895 --> 00:32:00.396
 And I think that's what my journey,
 
 00:32:02.355 --> 00:32:03.237
 I want to be very clear.
 
 00:32:03.717 --> 00:32:04.356
 I had that.
 
 00:32:04.436 --> 00:32:06.038
 People had to teach me how to do
 
 00:32:06.077 --> 00:32:06.298
 that.
 
 00:32:06.719 --> 00:32:08.480
 People had to teach me that I needed
 
 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:09.819
 to learn how to do that.
 
 00:32:10.320 --> 00:32:12.942
 And so I just feel in some ways,
 
 00:32:12.981 --> 00:32:13.142
 Bob,
 
 00:32:13.182 --> 00:32:16.763
 that I'm repaying a debt that was given
 
 00:32:16.804 --> 00:32:17.345
 to me.
 
 00:32:17.505 --> 00:32:19.306
 And I could not be more.
 
 00:32:20.205 --> 00:32:20.645
 Again,
 
 00:32:20.726 --> 00:32:22.426
 our A students that do great and they've
 
 00:32:22.446 --> 00:32:24.348
 done great before me, that's wonderful.
 
 00:32:24.388 --> 00:32:25.788
 And I'm very proud of them.
 
 00:32:26.390 --> 00:32:28.431
 But that student that comes in not
 
 00:32:28.471 --> 00:32:30.392
 believing that they can do these things,
 
 00:32:31.229 --> 00:32:32.769
 And by the end of the semester,
 
 00:32:32.869 --> 00:32:35.090
 you see that joy,
 
 00:32:35.770 --> 00:32:37.951
 which has sometimes the reminiscence of a
 
 00:32:38.092 --> 00:32:39.912
 nine-year-old or a ten-year-old when they
 
 00:32:39.951 --> 00:32:41.093
 first discover something.
 
 00:32:41.972 --> 00:32:42.232
 You know,
 
 00:32:42.272 --> 00:32:43.733
 here they are in their early twenties and
 
 00:32:43.753 --> 00:32:45.153
 they learn, I can do this.
 
 00:32:46.035 --> 00:32:48.836
 It is the biggest
 
 00:32:49.912 --> 00:32:51.594
 It's all I need to continue to do
 
 00:32:51.614 --> 00:32:53.316
 this next semester.
 
 00:32:53.395 --> 00:32:54.897
 It's all the joy I need is that
 
 00:32:55.038 --> 00:32:57.621
 look on their face to know that they
 
 00:32:57.681 --> 00:33:00.203
 did something that they did not think they
 
 00:33:00.223 --> 00:33:01.345
 were capable of doing.
 
 00:33:01.605 --> 00:33:02.987
 And I had a small hand in that.
 
 00:33:03.027 --> 00:33:04.548
 That's amazing.
 
 00:33:04.568 --> 00:33:07.332
 It really is the calling we have to
 
 00:33:07.412 --> 00:33:07.811
 do that.
 
 00:33:10.133 --> 00:33:12.193
 One other thing, getting back,
 
 00:33:12.513 --> 00:33:13.253
 I know we said we were going to
 
 00:33:13.273 --> 00:33:14.314
 talk about chapter five,
 
 00:33:14.653 --> 00:33:17.375
 and I think we've talked about everything
 
 00:33:17.474 --> 00:33:20.296
 else, but this is a great chapter,
 
 00:33:20.455 --> 00:33:22.936
 and looking at two guys that the
 
 00:33:22.957 --> 00:33:24.717
 historical narrative is these two guys
 
 00:33:24.737 --> 00:33:25.738
 really didn't get along,
 
 00:33:25.778 --> 00:33:27.978
 but you really show how Franklin and Adams
 
 00:33:28.018 --> 00:33:29.959
 really were complementary in their
 
 00:33:30.318 --> 00:33:34.119
 negotiations in Paris in the late
 
 00:33:35.441 --> 00:33:38.686
 That really... That idea of complementary,
 
 00:33:38.727 --> 00:33:40.970
 that is really the way I came to
 
 00:33:41.090 --> 00:33:42.692
 understand their relationship.
 
 00:33:43.074 --> 00:33:45.017
 And I want to say that
 
 00:33:45.959 --> 00:33:48.619
 It is really a lot of fun and
 
 00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:49.200
 very, you know,
 
 00:33:49.220 --> 00:33:50.461
 it's very interesting when you have these,
 
 00:33:50.780 --> 00:33:52.221
 when you have them side by side as
 
 00:33:52.261 --> 00:33:53.001
 antagonists.
 
 00:33:53.382 --> 00:33:57.703
 And there's a scene in the HBO miniseries
 
 00:33:57.723 --> 00:33:58.844
 that's been out for a while around John.
 
 00:33:58.864 --> 00:34:01.424
 It has this great scene of the two,
 
 00:34:01.545 --> 00:34:03.326
 their two actors going at each other in
 
 00:34:03.405 --> 00:34:03.986
 Paris, right?
 
 00:34:04.006 --> 00:34:05.146
 And it makes for great cinema.
 
 00:34:05.567 --> 00:34:06.247
 It makes for great,
 
 00:34:06.426 --> 00:34:07.788
 it's interesting in the classroom
 
 00:34:07.807 --> 00:34:08.228
 sometimes.
 
 00:34:08.568 --> 00:34:11.108
 But I would like the readers to come
 
 00:34:11.148 --> 00:34:14.811
 away with this idea of two brilliant
 
 00:34:14.831 --> 00:34:15.030
 characters
 
 00:34:16.081 --> 00:34:21.204
 strong-willed men who were crucial to the
 
 00:34:21.244 --> 00:34:22.365
 American experiment.
 
 00:34:23.565 --> 00:34:25.947
 And so chapter five picks them up in,
 
 00:34:25.967 --> 00:34:28.449
 you know, in, when they're in Paris.
 
 00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:29.610
 But before that,
 
 00:34:30.626 --> 00:34:32.726
 They had served on multiple committees
 
 00:34:32.766 --> 00:34:35.068
 together in the Continental Congress.
 
 00:34:35.648 --> 00:34:38.610
 They're on the same committee with Thomas
 
 00:34:38.630 --> 00:34:41.490
 Jefferson that drafts the Declaration of
 
 00:34:41.510 --> 00:34:42.130
 Independence.
 
 00:34:42.851 --> 00:34:45.413
 And so when it comes to foreign,
 
 00:34:45.432 --> 00:34:47.193
 when it comes to this foreign policy,
 
 00:34:47.873 --> 00:34:49.195
 there are two things that I want.
 
 00:34:49.315 --> 00:34:51.096
 I guess I want the reader to come
 
 00:34:51.115 --> 00:34:51.755
 away with one.
 
 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:56.922
 The United States is a nation and has
 
 00:34:57.123 --> 00:34:59.806
 always been a nation where brilliant,
 
 00:35:00.126 --> 00:35:01.447
 bright, smart,
 
 00:35:01.586 --> 00:35:03.588
 motivated people disagree with each other.
 
 00:35:04.750 --> 00:35:07.112
 That is not an aberration.
 
 00:35:07.152 --> 00:35:08.494
 That is who we are.
 
 00:35:09.894 --> 00:35:15.681
 But the whole revolutionary ideal is a
 
 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:16.641
 compromise.
 
 00:35:17.744 --> 00:35:19.945
 The idea that all these men were on
 
 00:35:19.985 --> 00:35:24.047
 the same page, that's just not, one,
 
 00:35:24.088 --> 00:35:25.429
 it's not very good history,
 
 00:35:26.208 --> 00:35:30.010
 but it's not very interesting because
 
 00:35:30.351 --> 00:35:31.751
 nobody operates that way.
 
 00:35:32.132 --> 00:35:34.072
 And there's no lesson in that for us.
 
 00:35:34.494 --> 00:35:37.994
 But when we see these two men who
 
 00:35:38.034 --> 00:35:40.016
 have very different ideas around the way
 
 00:35:40.096 --> 00:35:41.416
 foreign policy should act.
 
 00:35:41.737 --> 00:35:43.918
 So John Adams lays out what we call
 
 00:35:43.958 --> 00:35:44.898
 the model treaty.
 
 00:35:45.418 --> 00:35:45.679
 Yes.
 
 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.601
 And he lays out this understanding that
 
 00:35:48.563 --> 00:35:51.907
 both Adams and Franklin understand the
 
 00:35:51.987 --> 00:35:56.432
 United States needed France in order to be
 
 00:35:56.472 --> 00:35:58.916
 a viable combatant against the British.
 
 00:35:59.036 --> 00:36:00.038
 That was understood.
 
 00:36:01.034 --> 00:36:03.476
 But the way they went about it was
 
 00:36:03.536 --> 00:36:04.217
 very different.
 
 00:36:04.836 --> 00:36:07.237
 And George and Joe and John Adams lays
 
 00:36:07.277 --> 00:36:08.219
 out the model treaty.
 
 00:36:08.938 --> 00:36:11.800
 And it's a treaty that says we're going
 
 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:13.681
 to we're going to give we're going to
 
 00:36:13.701 --> 00:36:17.202
 have a economic relationship with France.
 
 00:36:17.862 --> 00:36:19.804
 But we're not going to have a military
 
 00:36:19.844 --> 00:36:21.605
 alliance with them and we're not going to
 
 00:36:21.644 --> 00:36:22.985
 depend on their military.
 
 00:36:23.456 --> 00:36:25.516
 Now, I want to, I mean, that makes,
 
 00:36:25.617 --> 00:36:27.657
 in some cases, when he's writing this,
 
 00:36:27.998 --> 00:36:29.157
 that made a lot of sense.
 
 00:36:29.699 --> 00:36:30.518
 And we have to recall,
 
 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:32.000
 he was from Boston,
 
 00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:36.561
 where he saw what having imperial troops
 
 00:36:36.601 --> 00:36:39.722
 stationed in a city would do and could
 
 00:36:39.762 --> 00:36:41.664
 do, the explosiveness of that, right?
 
 00:36:41.844 --> 00:36:45.425
 So he's writing out of that background.
 
 00:36:45.545 --> 00:36:49.586
 And so Benjamin Franklin takes this
 
 00:36:49.626 --> 00:36:51.628
 treaty, takes it to Paris,
 
 00:36:52.494 --> 00:36:56.777
 And France says, well, why would we?
 
 00:36:56.878 --> 00:36:58.358
 There's nothing in this for us.
 
 00:36:59.318 --> 00:37:00.699
 I mean, there's nothing in this for us.
 
 00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:02.940
 And to Benjamin Franklin's credit,
 
 00:37:03.181 --> 00:37:05.382
 he tries for a year to sell this
 
 00:37:05.583 --> 00:37:07.164
 economic only idea.
 
 00:37:07.304 --> 00:37:07.503
 Right.
 
 00:37:07.583 --> 00:37:07.764
 Yeah.
 
 00:37:09.342 --> 00:37:10.643
 But it just it doesn't work.
 
 00:37:10.704 --> 00:37:11.724
 And so finally,
 
 00:37:12.344 --> 00:37:13.744
 because he had been empowered by the
 
 00:37:13.764 --> 00:37:15.746
 Congress to do whatever was necessary,
 
 00:37:16.385 --> 00:37:18.967
 he negotiated first a treaty of economics,
 
 00:37:19.748 --> 00:37:20.568
 the Treaty of Amity.
 
 00:37:20.849 --> 00:37:23.570
 But he also negotiated a second treaty,
 
 00:37:24.170 --> 00:37:27.371
 a treaty of alliance that said, you know,
 
 00:37:27.572 --> 00:37:27.692
 if.
 
 00:37:28.032 --> 00:37:28.711
 You know,
 
 00:37:28.731 --> 00:37:30.253
 France will go to war with Britain on
 
 00:37:30.273 --> 00:37:31.253
 behalf of the United States.
 
 00:37:31.672 --> 00:37:34.594
 And if when France win, not it,
 
 00:37:34.634 --> 00:37:36.594
 but when France again goes to war with
 
 00:37:36.873 --> 00:37:37.193
 Britain,
 
 00:37:37.554 --> 00:37:38.795
 that the United States will come and help
 
 00:37:38.815 --> 00:37:39.275
 France.
 
 00:37:40.135 --> 00:37:43.155
 And again, these were two different ideas.
 
 00:37:43.175 --> 00:37:44.735
 This is not the way John Adams had
 
 00:37:44.916 --> 00:37:45.476
 understood it.
 
 00:37:46.137 --> 00:37:48.637
 But what we understand is you have John
 
 00:37:48.717 --> 00:37:50.637
 Adams as this wonderful architect.
 
 00:37:51.436 --> 00:37:54.418
 of the foreign policy.
 
 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:58.201
 But in Franklin, you have the builder.
 
 00:37:58.661 --> 00:38:00.242
 You have the person that's gonna carry out
 
 00:38:00.262 --> 00:38:02.143
 the plans to fruition.
 
 00:38:02.744 --> 00:38:04.666
 And I've never built a building,
 
 00:38:04.686 --> 00:38:05.585
 I've been an engineer,
 
 00:38:05.885 --> 00:38:09.329
 but I'm sure there's some architecture
 
 00:38:09.588 --> 00:38:11.630
 that looks a little bit different in its
 
 00:38:11.670 --> 00:38:14.532
 reality than it did on the schematic when
 
 00:38:14.552 --> 00:38:15.231
 it was laid out.
 
 00:38:15.331 --> 00:38:17.414
 And that's what I see in the foundation
 
 00:38:17.474 --> 00:38:18.855
 of American foreign policy
 
 00:38:19.355 --> 00:38:21.215
 is that you have an architect of an
 
 00:38:22.016 --> 00:38:22.896
 ideal system,
 
 00:38:23.556 --> 00:38:25.998
 but then you have a pragmatic diplomat who
 
 00:38:26.137 --> 00:38:27.577
 understood what was happening on the
 
 00:38:27.597 --> 00:38:30.920
 ground and brought that ideal into
 
 00:38:30.980 --> 00:38:31.659
 reality.
 
 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:35.440
 And to John Adams' credit,
 
 00:38:35.860 --> 00:38:38.141
 when he arrives in France after that
 
 00:38:38.202 --> 00:38:39.842
 treaty has already been negotiated,
 
 00:38:41.204 --> 00:38:43.885
 while he must have been a bit let
 
 00:38:43.965 --> 00:38:44.485
 down,
 
 00:38:44.585 --> 00:38:46.405
 he must have been somewhat disappointed in
 
 00:38:46.465 --> 00:38:47.326
 his writings,
 
 00:38:48.666 --> 00:38:51.726
 He could not have been any more gracious
 
 00:38:52.166 --> 00:38:54.668
 about the importance of what Benjamin
 
 00:38:54.708 --> 00:38:57.208
 Franklin had done for the United States.
 
 00:38:57.528 --> 00:38:59.148
 And he says that at the time,
 
 00:38:59.409 --> 00:39:01.389
 but he also says it years later.
 
 00:39:01.989 --> 00:39:03.929
 And I am no way saying that these
 
 00:39:03.989 --> 00:39:06.811
 men got along because they did not always
 
 00:39:06.831 --> 00:39:07.411
 get along.
 
 00:39:08.172 --> 00:39:11.793
 But they found a way to work together
 
 00:39:12.333 --> 00:39:14.574
 for something greater than themselves.
 
 00:39:15.213 --> 00:39:16.114
 And I think
 
 00:39:16.771 --> 00:39:18.813
 When we teach history in that way,
 
 00:39:19.414 --> 00:39:21.436
 that some of our country's greatest
 
 00:39:21.496 --> 00:39:22.996
 figures, George Washington,
 
 00:39:23.177 --> 00:39:25.219
 Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton,
 
 00:39:25.458 --> 00:39:27.420
 Benjamin Franklin, John Adams,
 
 00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:29.862
 that they did not see eye to eye.
 
 00:39:29.902 --> 00:39:30.463
 In some cases,
 
 00:39:30.483 --> 00:39:31.684
 they rarely saw eye to eye.
 
 00:39:33.664 --> 00:39:35.025
 But for the sake of the nation,
 
 00:39:35.567 --> 00:39:40.030
 they found ways to make a policy that
 
 00:39:40.331 --> 00:39:42.572
 everybody gave up something for the
 
 00:39:42.612 --> 00:39:43.112
 greater good.
 
 00:39:44.047 --> 00:39:45.969
 right yeah they understood that this has
 
 00:39:45.989 --> 00:39:48.012
 been a fascinating conversation ron we i
 
 00:39:48.032 --> 00:39:49.775
 know we could talk all day about this
 
 00:39:49.835 --> 00:39:51.496
 it's a great book ronald johnson has
 
 00:39:51.536 --> 00:39:54.420
 written entangled alliances racialized
 
 00:39:54.460 --> 00:39:56.702
 freedom and atlantic diplomacy during the
 
 00:39:56.742 --> 00:39:59.224
 american revolution tremendous book that
 
 00:39:59.284 --> 00:40:01.367
 ties together all of this and all of
 
 00:40:01.387 --> 00:40:03.190
 these characters in this way
 
 00:40:04.670 --> 00:40:05.891
 It's fascinating, too,
 
 00:40:05.931 --> 00:40:07.693
 that Franklin goes to France on this
 
 00:40:07.733 --> 00:40:08.474
 secret mission,
 
 00:40:08.494 --> 00:40:10.255
 but the hundred newspapers are covering
 
 00:40:10.295 --> 00:40:10.476
 him.
 
 00:40:10.536 --> 00:40:13.579
 And then even the Affiche American has
 
 00:40:13.619 --> 00:40:18.922
 Franklin in Paris.
 
 00:40:18.983 --> 00:40:20.443
 And then the news of the treaty comes
 
 00:40:20.483 --> 00:40:22.365
 to the United States by way of Martinique.
 
 00:40:27.730 --> 00:40:29.132
 So thank you so much for joining us,
 
 00:40:29.192 --> 00:40:29.371
 Ron.
 
 00:40:29.391 --> 00:40:30.932
 Is there anything else we should say
 
 00:40:30.972 --> 00:40:31.793
 before we let you go?
 
 00:40:32.891 --> 00:40:34.193
 I think I would just say,
 
 00:40:34.893 --> 00:40:36.175
 I hope when people read the book,
 
 00:40:36.596 --> 00:40:38.717
 they'll see that the United States and
 
 00:40:38.777 --> 00:40:43.782
 Haiti have had a longer relationship than
 
 00:40:43.902 --> 00:40:44.943
 most Americans in the
 
 00:40:54.115 --> 00:40:56.197
 Entangled Alliances, Racialized Freedom,
 
 00:40:56.257 --> 00:40:58.378
 and Atlantic Diplomacy During the American
 
 00:40:58.418 --> 00:40:59.059
 Revolution.
 
 00:40:59.139 --> 00:41:00.960
 He is the Ralph and Bessie May Lynn
 
 00:41:01.340 --> 00:41:03.722
 Chair of History at Baylor University in
 
 00:41:03.762 --> 00:41:04.422
 Waco, Texas.
 
 00:41:04.442 --> 00:41:05.663
 Thanks so much for joining us, Ron.
 
 00:41:06.242 --> 00:41:06.802
 Thank you, Bob.
 
 00:41:06.822 --> 00:41:08.143
 This has been so much fun.
 
 00:41:08.204 --> 00:41:09.385
 Thank you again.
 
 00:41:09.505 --> 00:41:09.965
 It has been.
 
 00:41:10.005 --> 00:41:10.286
 Thank you.
 
 00:41:10.306 --> 00:41:11.585
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:41:11.666 --> 00:41:12.347
 our producer,
 
 00:41:12.387 --> 00:41:12.726
 who's been
 
 00:41:13.186 --> 00:41:14.586
 the man behind the curtain who makes
 
 00:41:14.626 --> 00:41:15.327
 everything run.
 
 00:41:15.347 --> 00:41:16.927
 He's also the executive director of
 
 00:41:16.967 --> 00:41:19.550
 Revolution two fifty and our listeners
 
 00:41:19.590 --> 00:41:20.431
 around the country.
 
 00:41:20.490 --> 00:41:21.751
 And if you're in one of these places
 
 00:41:21.791 --> 00:41:23.672
 and want some of our Revolution two fifty
 
 00:41:23.733 --> 00:41:24.253
 swag,
 
 00:41:24.293 --> 00:41:25.534
 we have a new set of scarves that
 
 00:41:25.554 --> 00:41:26.114
 have come out.
 
 00:41:26.554 --> 00:41:27.775
 Send Jonathan an email.
 
 00:41:27.835 --> 00:41:30.177
 Jay Lane at Revolution two five zero dot
 
 00:41:30.336 --> 00:41:30.556
 org.
 
 00:41:31.157 --> 00:41:32.297
 Or if you just want to connect with
 
 00:41:32.338 --> 00:41:32.778
 Jonathan.
 
 00:41:32.818 --> 00:41:34.159
 But every week we thank folks who are
 
 00:41:34.219 --> 00:41:35.159
 regular listeners.
 
 00:41:35.260 --> 00:41:36.541
 And so if you're in one of these
 
 00:41:36.581 --> 00:41:36.981
 places,
 
 00:41:37.021 --> 00:41:39.822
 send Jonathan an email and you will be
 
 00:41:39.882 --> 00:41:40.443
 rewarded.
 
 00:41:40.503 --> 00:41:41.043
 So this week,
 
 00:41:41.063 --> 00:41:42.525
 I want to thank our listeners in
 
 00:41:43.034 --> 00:41:45.356
 McKinney, Seguin, San Antonio,
 
 00:41:45.476 --> 00:41:46.077
 and Houston,
 
 00:41:46.177 --> 00:41:47.639
 all in the great state of Texas,
 
 00:41:48.259 --> 00:41:51.581
 and in Horseheads, New York, Morristown,
 
 00:41:51.621 --> 00:41:54.123
 Tennessee, Monmouth, Maine, and Lexington,
 
 00:41:54.163 --> 00:41:54.704
 Kentucky,
 
 00:41:55.083 --> 00:41:57.266
 three great towns named for important
 
 00:41:57.306 --> 00:41:58.847
 battles of the Revolutionary War,
 
 00:41:59.668 --> 00:42:01.148
 and in the great state of Ohio,
 
 00:42:01.188 --> 00:42:03.110
 folks in Columbus and Lower Salem,
 
 00:42:03.590 --> 00:42:05.472
 in Detroit, Michigan, Mount Pleasant,
 
 00:42:05.532 --> 00:42:08.494
 South Carolina, and here in the Bay State,
 
 00:42:08.574 --> 00:42:10.356
 Attleboro, Ashland, Watertown.
 
 00:42:10.396 --> 00:42:11.817
 Thanks to you all for joining us, and
 
 00:42:12.197 --> 00:42:14.021
 everyone in places between and beyond.
 
 00:42:14.061 --> 00:42:15.865
 And now we will be piped out on
 
 00:42:15.905 --> 00:42:16.887
 the road to Boston.