The American Revolution and the Fate of the World with Richard Bell.

In The American Revolution and the Fate of the World, historian Richard Bell explores how the struggle for American independence reverberated far beyond the thirteen colonies—reshaping politics, empires, and ideas of liberty around the globe. Bell reveals how revolutionaries from Boston to Bengal, Paris to Port-au-Prince, drew inspiration and warning from the events of 1776. The American Revolution became a test case for freedom in an age of empire. Looking at the stories of individuals caught up in its ferment, Bell shows how the Revolution reshaped the world. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the Revolution two fifty
 
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 podcast.
 
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 I'm Bob Allison.
 
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 I chair the Rev two fifty advisory group.
 
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 We're a consortium of about seventy five
 
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 or so organizations in Massachusetts
 
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 planning commemorations of the beginnings
 
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 of American independence.
 
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 And our guest today is Richard Bell.
 
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 And Rick Bell is a professor of history
 
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 at the University of Maryland.
 
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 And he is the author of four book
 
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 three book.
 
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 I think this is your fourth book.
 
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 and it's a terrific book the american
 
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 revolution and the fate of the world and
 
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 one of the reviewers says that you tell
 
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 american history as if from a bar stool
 
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 not a lecture podium so thanks for joining
 
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 us it's my pleasure bob great to be
 
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 with you so it really is a book
 
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 about the american revolution as a global
 
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 thing and i'm wondering what are the
 
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 favorite stories or most surprising
 
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 stories you learned in doing looking at
 
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 this global context of the revolution
 
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 Oh, geez.
 
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 So there's so many stories,
 
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 human lives that I try to recapture and
 
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 reconstruct here, right?
 
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 Because on the one hand,
 
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 we're telling a big sweeping story from
 
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 thirty five thousand foot.
 
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 On the other hand,
 
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 we want to build it from the ground
 
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 up and realize that, you know,
 
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 as you know, Bob,
 
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 that this war is fought and felt on
 
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 the human scale.
 
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 Right.
 
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 So I love being able to get close
 
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 to human lives here.
 
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 I'll tell you one story of a guy.
 
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 called John Moseley.
 
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 John Moseley was enslaved in Virginia,
 
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 escaped his Virginian enslaver,
 
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 went to join the King's cause early in
 
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 the war because British commanders like
 
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 Lord Dunmore were strategically promising
 
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 lifelong freedom to enslave people who
 
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 desert their patriot masters and come join
 
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 the British.
 
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 That's a disruption strategy the British
 
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 are using, of course.
 
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 And John Moseley is in British lines.
 
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 He evacuates with the British army and
 
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 ends up in London,
 
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 which is more unusual than it sounds by
 
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 the end of the war.
 
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 He falls on hard times there.
 
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 He's not eligible for a veteran's pension
 
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 in the British army or poor relief.
 
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 And desperate hunger leads him to
 
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 desperate action, Bob.
 
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 He commits a crime of survival, really,
 
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 a victimless crime,
 
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 claiming a dead soldier's unclaimed wages.
 
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 He's arrested for the fraud and
 
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 prosecuted.
 
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 And he is sentenced to fourteen years of
 
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 hard labor in Britain's overseas colonies.
 
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 And this is the point in the story
 
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 when I should remind your viewers and
 
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 listeners, Bob,
 
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 that
 
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 Back before the revolution,
 
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 Britain transported fifty thousand of its
 
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 convicted felons to America,
 
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 to Virginia and Maryland.
 
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 But of course,
 
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 independence means Britain can't do that
 
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 anymore.
 
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 So John Mosley is sent to a brand
 
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 new penal colony,
 
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 which is designed to be the replacement
 
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 dumping ground.
 
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 And that, of course, is Australia.
 
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 So John Mosley will end up as a
 
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 convict field hand in Australia.
 
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 After years of good behavior,
 
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 he'll get a conditional early pardon.
 
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 He will get a land grant,
 
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 which he will reject.
 
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 He will open his own small business in
 
 00:03:08.111 --> 00:03:12.173
 the fledgling Sydney township and be
 
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 delighted to work for himself at long last
 
 00:03:14.734 --> 00:03:16.213
 and not anybody else.
 
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 So, you know, I love that story because,
 
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 you know, how...
 
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 how high the stakes are for john mosley
 
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 at every point of course but also because
 
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 of the geography right this guy opens the
 
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 war in virginia after the war he's in
 
 00:03:31.323 --> 00:03:33.305
 london and within ten years he's in
 
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 australia and that reminds us that places
 
 00:03:36.106 --> 00:03:38.968
 as far flung as virginia and australia are
 
 00:03:38.989 --> 00:03:41.290
 actually connected by what happens in the
 
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 eight years of the american revolution
 
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 right you really do a great job telling
 
 00:03:45.813 --> 00:03:47.915
 these big stories but through the lives of
 
 00:03:47.936 --> 00:03:49.757
 the people who are affected by it and
 
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 it's uh
 
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 I mean, I really enjoyed reading the book.
 
 00:03:53.415 --> 00:03:54.557
 And then you do have, of course,
 
 00:03:54.617 --> 00:03:55.618
 the big themes.
 
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 And you have two chapters on the British
 
 00:03:57.480 --> 00:03:59.204
 Caribbean and the Harry Washington that
 
 00:03:59.243 --> 00:04:01.186
 really juxtapose the whole issue of
 
 00:04:01.246 --> 00:04:02.668
 slavery at this time.
 
 00:04:02.707 --> 00:04:04.330
 And it's the different impacts the
 
 00:04:04.370 --> 00:04:06.932
 revolution had on the institution of
 
 00:04:06.953 --> 00:04:08.915
 slavery and the transatlantic slave trade.
 
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 Yeah, that's absolutely right.
 
 00:04:10.980 --> 00:04:12.542
 So there's fourteen chapters,
 
 00:04:12.562 --> 00:04:14.043
 but we cover a lot of ground.
 
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 And I do have some arguments I'm trying
 
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 to make through this storytelling,
 
 00:04:18.127 --> 00:04:19.608
 but never hit readers over the head with
 
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 it, if you see what I mean.
 
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 So one of the things that historians have
 
 00:04:23.151 --> 00:04:26.014
 been asking themselves for a while is,
 
 00:04:26.593 --> 00:04:28.656
 given that there were way more than
 
 00:04:28.755 --> 00:04:31.959
 thirteen British colonies in North America
 
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 and the Caribbean,
 
 00:04:32.779 --> 00:04:34.161
 by some counts there are twenty six.
 
 00:04:34.201 --> 00:04:35.122
 Other people say there are thirty.
 
 00:04:36.622 --> 00:04:37.884
 given that there are so many British
 
 00:04:37.923 --> 00:04:39.404
 colonies in North America and the
 
 00:04:39.464 --> 00:04:41.886
 Caribbean, why do only thirteen,
 
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 half or fewer than half, you know,
 
 00:04:44.767 --> 00:04:47.250
 secede and successfully separate in the
 
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 American Revolution War?
 
 00:04:48.891 --> 00:04:51.312
 And that requires us to think about the
 
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 Caribbean and think about it really hard,
 
 00:04:53.353 --> 00:04:53.593
 right?
 
 00:04:53.632 --> 00:04:56.314
 So we owe a big debt to scholars
 
 00:04:56.375 --> 00:04:57.216
 like, you know,
 
 00:04:57.235 --> 00:04:58.697
 Trevor Bernard and Andrew Jackson
 
 00:04:58.737 --> 00:05:01.298
 O'Shaughnessy and many others for framing
 
 00:05:01.338 --> 00:05:02.218
 these questions.
 
 00:05:02.699 --> 00:05:04.040
 And, you know,
 
 00:05:04.060 --> 00:05:06.000
 my answer to those questions are,
 
 00:05:06.341 --> 00:05:08.362
 Why doesn't Jamaica secede?
 
 00:05:08.401 --> 00:05:10.783
 Why doesn't Jamaica join South Carolina,
 
 00:05:10.802 --> 00:05:11.983
 with which it has a lot in common
 
 00:05:12.062 --> 00:05:13.264
 in the Continental Congress?
 
 00:05:14.043 --> 00:05:14.783
 There's a few answers.
 
 00:05:15.004 --> 00:05:18.545
 One would be Jamaica's dependence on the
 
 00:05:18.586 --> 00:05:21.206
 slave trade in a way that by the
 
 00:05:21.266 --> 00:05:22.187
 seventeen seventies,
 
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 many mainland colonies are not quite so
 
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 dependent.
 
 00:05:25.869 --> 00:05:28.911
 I would say British military protection
 
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 from French and Spanish attacks.
 
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 They need the Royal Navy on call,
 
 00:05:32.733 --> 00:05:33.555
 twenty four seven.
 
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 And I would say sugar exports.
 
 00:05:37.458 --> 00:05:39.899
 They send all their sugar to British
 
 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.802
 consumers on the mainland who then put it
 
 00:05:42.841 --> 00:05:43.601
 in their tea.
 
 00:05:43.661 --> 00:05:43.822
 Right.
 
 00:05:43.843 --> 00:05:44.682
 The tea, ironically,
 
 00:05:44.702 --> 00:05:46.204
 is from China brought there by the East
 
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 Indians.
 
 00:05:47.904 --> 00:05:50.387
 So these are ways in which the revolution
 
 00:05:50.406 --> 00:05:52.608
 looks very different from British
 
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 Caribbean,
 
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 from the perspective of British Caribbean
 
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 outposts.
 
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 Nonetheless, enslaved people,
 
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 whether they are at Mount Vernon in
 
 00:06:00.350 --> 00:06:03.132
 Virginia or whether they are in Hanover
 
 00:06:03.192 --> 00:06:04.192
 Parish in Jamaica,
 
 00:06:04.892 --> 00:06:07.293
 see the chaos of Britain's war against
 
 00:06:07.374 --> 00:06:11.035
 itself as an opportunity to seek freedom.
 
 00:06:11.074 --> 00:06:12.735
 So John Mosley, that's what he's doing.
 
 00:06:13.096 --> 00:06:15.036
 But also we can see uprisings in Jamaica
 
 00:06:15.076 --> 00:06:15.975
 and other places, too,
 
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 trying to use the distractions of the war
 
 00:06:18.257 --> 00:06:20.658
 to advance their own liberty agenda.
 
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 So I love this stuff.
 
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 I love these juxtapositions.
 
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 It really is great.
 
 00:06:24.338 --> 00:06:24.759
 And then, of course,
 
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 your book begins with China,
 
 00:06:26.459 --> 00:06:29.339
 the Empress of China, and then leading.
 
 00:06:29.620 --> 00:06:31.261
 So we begin with tea and then leads
 
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 into opium in the mid-early nineteenth
 
 00:06:33.781 --> 00:06:34.122
 century.
 
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 Yeah, that's right.
 
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 The book sort of opens in China,
 
 00:06:37.918 --> 00:06:39.418
 and then, three hundred pages later,
 
 00:06:39.437 --> 00:06:40.639
 it sort of ends in India.
 
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 And ironically,
 
 00:06:41.838 --> 00:06:43.220
 the British East India Company is in...
 
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 Oops,
 
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 my lights just went out in the classroom
 
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 I'm in.
 
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 Hopefully, you can still see me.
 
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 Yes, we can see you.
 
 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:49.261
 That's good.
 
 00:06:49.300 --> 00:06:49.540
 So,
 
 00:06:49.701 --> 00:06:51.242
 the British East India Company is a sort
 
 00:06:51.262 --> 00:06:52.482
 of bookend entity,
 
 00:06:52.562 --> 00:06:54.062
 both the start of the American Revolution
 
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 and the end.
 
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 We know the opening pretty well, right?
 
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 You guys are in Boston and the Boston
 
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 Tea Party.
 
 00:07:01.785 --> 00:07:03.947
 And I had the chance to visit the
 
 00:07:04.107 --> 00:07:05.908
 Boston Tea Party Museum over the summer.
 
 00:07:05.928 --> 00:07:06.949
 I was quite impressed, actually,
 
 00:07:06.990 --> 00:07:07.690
 by what I saw there.
 
 00:07:09.672 --> 00:07:10.874
 The Boston Tea Party,
 
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 it should be a wake-up call that this
 
 00:07:13.855 --> 00:07:17.439
 is a war informed by globalizing concerns,
 
 00:07:17.499 --> 00:07:17.720
 right?
 
 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.903
 It's about concerns about the market power
 
 00:07:21.983 --> 00:07:24.285
 and monopoly power and corporate greed of
 
 00:07:24.305 --> 00:07:25.947
 a global megacorporation that
 
 00:07:26.226 --> 00:07:28.468
 based in India with interests in China.
 
 00:07:29.911 --> 00:07:31.291
 And so from that beginning,
 
 00:07:31.372 --> 00:07:34.995
 we get a war motivated by global concerns.
 
 00:07:35.016 --> 00:07:37.959
 And we'll see afterwards American
 
 00:07:37.999 --> 00:07:41.322
 merchants rush to secure access to the
 
 00:07:41.362 --> 00:07:43.244
 Chinese tea trade for themselves and cut
 
 00:07:43.444 --> 00:07:44.045
 out East India.
 
 00:07:45.444 --> 00:07:46.004
 companies.
 
 00:07:46.064 --> 00:07:47.505
 So there's a certain irony there that
 
 00:07:47.545 --> 00:07:50.627
 fighting to keep Chinese tea coming from
 
 00:07:50.726 --> 00:07:53.107
 British vessels out of the retail market
 
 00:07:53.648 --> 00:07:55.747
 is soon followed by American merchants
 
 00:07:56.187 --> 00:07:57.968
 rushing to Canton, to Guangzhou,
 
 00:07:58.249 --> 00:07:59.949
 trying to secure their own wholesale
 
 00:07:59.968 --> 00:08:01.670
 agreements.
 
 00:08:01.750 --> 00:08:03.670
 It really is a fascinating story.
 
 00:08:03.709 --> 00:08:05.310
 And then tying it in then with the
 
 00:08:05.771 --> 00:08:07.750
 destruction of the opium by the Chinese in
 
 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:09.672
 the in the eighteen forties during the
 
 00:08:10.882 --> 00:08:11.504
 The whole debate,
 
 00:08:11.524 --> 00:08:13.028
 the East India Company thinks, of course,
 
 00:08:13.048 --> 00:08:14.271
 they're going to legalize this because
 
 00:08:14.290 --> 00:08:15.954
 it's so valuable to the Chinese,
 
 00:08:15.994 --> 00:08:17.456
 but then much to their surprise,
 
 00:08:17.476 --> 00:08:18.740
 the Chinese government says, no,
 
 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:19.422
 we're banning it.
 
 00:08:20.987 --> 00:08:22.127
 Yeah, Bob, that's exactly right.
 
 00:08:22.166 --> 00:08:23.588
 So as the British East India Company
 
 00:08:23.668 --> 00:08:26.507
 lurches from one self-created crisis to
 
 00:08:26.567 --> 00:08:28.189
 another in the course of the eighties,
 
 00:08:28.249 --> 00:08:29.649
 nineties and onwards,
 
 00:08:30.069 --> 00:08:33.029
 it eventually pivots towards a new cash
 
 00:08:33.090 --> 00:08:33.490
 crop,
 
 00:08:33.529 --> 00:08:36.230
 which is opium grown in British India,
 
 00:08:36.270 --> 00:08:38.410
 then exported to Chinese consumers.
 
 00:08:38.471 --> 00:08:39.192
 As you can imagine,
 
 00:08:39.692 --> 00:08:41.111
 opium is highly addictive.
 
 00:08:41.152 --> 00:08:43.092
 It's a blight on public health.
 
 00:08:43.173 --> 00:08:44.373
 The Chinese government
 
 00:08:44.812 --> 00:08:47.653
 bitterly resents and rejects and so to try
 
 00:08:47.673 --> 00:08:49.573
 to shut the british east india company out
 
 00:08:49.634 --> 00:08:52.153
 of the chinese consumer market to stop all
 
 00:08:52.173 --> 00:08:54.894
 the opium sales compare this to say
 
 00:08:54.934 --> 00:08:59.035
 fentanyl today or something like that the
 
 00:08:59.135 --> 00:09:01.336
 chinese officials are authorized local
 
 00:09:01.436 --> 00:09:03.836
 agents in canton to start destroying
 
 00:09:03.937 --> 00:09:06.397
 shipments of east india company opioids
 
 00:09:06.456 --> 00:09:08.498
 coming up the pearl river and i think
 
 00:09:08.538 --> 00:09:09.597
 the year i have in my head is
 
 00:09:11.158 --> 00:09:12.259
 In eighteen thirty nine,
 
 00:09:12.658 --> 00:09:14.581
 Chinese ministers and their agents dump,
 
 00:09:14.620 --> 00:09:14.821
 you know,
 
 00:09:14.880 --> 00:09:18.163
 chests and chests of British East India
 
 00:09:18.203 --> 00:09:20.745
 Company opioids into the Pearl River.
 
 00:09:20.806 --> 00:09:23.128
 And obviously what is a direct homage to
 
 00:09:23.149 --> 00:09:24.549
 the Boston Tea Party of what,
 
 00:09:24.590 --> 00:09:25.730
 sixty six years earlier.
 
 00:09:25.770 --> 00:09:27.312
 So speaking of global ripple effects,
 
 00:09:27.351 --> 00:09:27.873
 it's incredible.
 
 00:09:28.631 --> 00:09:29.131
 It really is.
 
 00:09:29.672 --> 00:09:31.272
 We're talking with Richard Bell.
 
 00:09:31.312 --> 00:09:33.092
 Rick Bell is a professor of history at
 
 00:09:33.113 --> 00:09:35.393
 the University of Maryland,
 
 00:09:35.513 --> 00:09:37.494
 and his new book is The American
 
 00:09:37.553 --> 00:09:39.874
 Revolution and the Fate of the World,
 
 00:09:39.913 --> 00:09:42.134
 which really is it's both a global and
 
 00:09:42.153 --> 00:09:43.114
 very personal book.
 
 00:09:43.134 --> 00:09:44.654
 That is the story of what's happening
 
 00:09:44.695 --> 00:09:45.634
 around the globe,
 
 00:09:45.654 --> 00:09:47.894
 but with these stories of individuals who
 
 00:09:47.934 --> 00:09:49.655
 are caught up in various ways.
 
 00:09:51.216 --> 00:09:52.475
 One of my favorites was actually William
 
 00:09:52.535 --> 00:09:52.936
 Russell,
 
 00:09:52.956 --> 00:09:55.076
 the privateer prisoner of war and his
 
 00:09:55.135 --> 00:09:57.716
 various misadventures and adventures in
 
 00:09:57.756 --> 00:09:58.057
 the war.
 
 00:09:59.306 --> 00:10:00.866
 One of my favorites too, Bob,
 
 00:10:00.947 --> 00:10:02.369
 thanks for flagging him.
 
 00:10:02.428 --> 00:10:05.051
 And I really wanted to call him Bill
 
 00:10:05.110 --> 00:10:05.951
 Russell in the book,
 
 00:10:06.011 --> 00:10:07.812
 but I know that would confuse sports fans,
 
 00:10:07.993 --> 00:10:09.575
 so I resisted the impulse.
 
 00:10:11.015 --> 00:10:12.677
 And a lot of what I've learned about
 
 00:10:12.756 --> 00:10:14.479
 Bill Russell comes from excellent
 
 00:10:14.538 --> 00:10:17.400
 scholarship by my friend Frank Cogliano,
 
 00:10:17.421 --> 00:10:18.442
 who teaches at the University of
 
 00:10:18.562 --> 00:10:19.043
 Edinburgh.
 
 00:10:19.062 --> 00:10:20.423
 So you can't learn about Bill Russell
 
 00:10:20.443 --> 00:10:22.445
 without registering Frank as the world
 
 00:10:22.485 --> 00:10:23.005
 expert here.
 
 00:10:23.927 --> 00:10:25.587
 But my take on Bill Russell is, yeah,
 
 00:10:25.648 --> 00:10:28.389
 he's a Boston school teacher who embraces
 
 00:10:28.429 --> 00:10:29.410
 the patriot cause,
 
 00:10:29.431 --> 00:10:30.631
 like many people in your neck of the
 
 00:10:30.652 --> 00:10:31.153
 words, Bob,
 
 00:10:32.173 --> 00:10:34.696
 and becomes a patriot privateer after a
 
 00:10:34.755 --> 00:10:36.177
 difficult career as a militiaman.
 
 00:10:37.211 --> 00:10:39.011
 And a patriot privateer is, of course,
 
 00:10:39.131 --> 00:10:41.534
 a patriot-sponsored pirate,
 
 00:10:41.575 --> 00:10:42.615
 for lack of a better word,
 
 00:10:43.615 --> 00:10:46.438
 who goes out on sort of merchandising
 
 00:10:46.479 --> 00:10:48.900
 missions to raid British merchant ships
 
 00:10:48.941 --> 00:10:51.023
 and cause general chaos and ruin to
 
 00:10:51.082 --> 00:10:54.306
 Britain's global maritime economy.
 
 00:10:54.466 --> 00:10:57.889
 And a scholarship by Frank and Eric Dolan
 
 00:10:58.149 --> 00:11:00.572
 and Kylie Herbert and many other people in
 
 00:11:00.591 --> 00:11:01.432
 the last twenty years
 
 00:11:01.852 --> 00:11:02.735
 has demonstrated,
 
 00:11:03.115 --> 00:11:05.639
 privateering is a major aspect of the
 
 00:11:05.678 --> 00:11:08.464
 Revolutionary War that we've chosen to
 
 00:11:08.524 --> 00:11:10.486
 forget about and minimize.
 
 00:11:10.506 --> 00:11:12.289
 But the scale of patriot privateering,
 
 00:11:12.890 --> 00:11:13.331
 massive.
 
 00:11:13.370 --> 00:11:15.313
 I think the number I have in my
 
 00:11:15.333 --> 00:11:15.674
 head is like,
 
 00:11:17.136 --> 00:11:19.379
 People involved in Patriot privateering,
 
 00:11:19.821 --> 00:11:22.384
 tens of thousands of cruises doing massive
 
 00:11:22.423 --> 00:11:25.087
 amounts of damage to the British economy
 
 00:11:25.467 --> 00:11:28.672
 in a way that is designed to sow
 
 00:11:28.772 --> 00:11:31.196
 doubt and discord among the British people
 
 00:11:31.216 --> 00:11:32.898
 about whether this war is worth it.
 
 00:11:33.317 --> 00:11:34.639
 Can't we just go back to the way
 
 00:11:34.678 --> 00:11:35.239
 things were?
 
 00:11:35.278 --> 00:11:37.061
 Can't we start trading with our friends in
 
 00:11:37.100 --> 00:11:37.860
 America again?
 
 00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:39.581
 Why don't we lay down arms and we
 
 00:11:39.601 --> 00:11:40.243
 walk away?
 
 00:11:40.283 --> 00:11:42.964
 So the political imperatives behind
 
 00:11:43.004 --> 00:11:44.605
 privateering are massive.
 
 00:11:44.664 --> 00:11:46.365
 And remember, folks, that the US Navy,
 
 00:11:46.426 --> 00:11:48.467
 sadly, is not yet much of a concern.
 
 00:11:48.947 --> 00:11:50.168
 So Patriot privateers,
 
 00:11:50.188 --> 00:11:51.529
 just people renting out their fishing
 
 00:11:51.549 --> 00:11:53.552
 boats and adapting them into raiding
 
 00:11:53.591 --> 00:11:54.032
 vessels,
 
 00:11:54.412 --> 00:11:57.153
 is really what the Patriots do at sea.
 
 00:11:57.634 --> 00:11:59.056
 And this guy, William Russell,
 
 00:11:59.076 --> 00:12:00.576
 who I'm not going to call Bill Russell,
 
 00:12:01.658 --> 00:12:03.519
 is at the heart of this and sadly
 
 00:12:03.558 --> 00:12:08.423
 is captured twice by Royal Navy gunboats
 
 00:12:08.842 --> 00:12:10.543
 and imprisoned twice.
 
 00:12:10.945 --> 00:12:14.827
 First in a British black hole site outside
 
 00:12:14.847 --> 00:12:17.669
 of Plymouth called the Mill Prison.
 
 00:12:18.269 --> 00:12:21.253
 which he eventually is repatriated from,
 
 00:12:21.552 --> 00:12:22.774
 and then he goes right back to work
 
 00:12:22.813 --> 00:12:25.177
 as a privateer and is captured immediately
 
 00:12:25.256 --> 00:12:25.657
 again.
 
 00:12:25.677 --> 00:12:26.738
 He just gets home.
 
 00:12:27.658 --> 00:12:28.360
 He just gets home.
 
 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.000
 He sees what terrible economic straits his
 
 00:12:30.041 --> 00:12:30.841
 wife and kids are,
 
 00:12:30.861 --> 00:12:32.182
 so he goes back out to sea,
 
 00:12:32.503 --> 00:12:33.303
 is captured again,
 
 00:12:33.344 --> 00:12:37.168
 and this time incarcerated in British...
 
 00:12:37.748 --> 00:12:38.288
 Hulks,
 
 00:12:38.428 --> 00:12:41.091
 zombie cargo ships are in Brooklyn Bay
 
 00:12:41.133 --> 00:12:42.594
 because of course Britain occupies New
 
 00:12:42.614 --> 00:12:46.239
 York City in the war and almost dies.
 
 00:12:46.359 --> 00:12:47.941
 It's like a black hole of Calcutta
 
 00:12:47.961 --> 00:12:50.325
 situation inside these Hulks.
 
 00:12:50.345 --> 00:12:52.707
 So it reminds us of what privateers did
 
 00:12:52.768 --> 00:12:54.389
 and what privateers went through when they
 
 00:12:54.409 --> 00:12:55.871
 became POWs as well.
 
 00:12:56.272 --> 00:12:56.692
 Right.
 
 00:12:56.751 --> 00:12:58.072
 And the British really don't consider them
 
 00:12:58.133 --> 00:12:59.975
 prisoners of war so much as pirates
 
 00:12:59.995 --> 00:13:00.575
 they've captured.
 
 00:13:00.595 --> 00:13:02.316
 Because if you consider them legit
 
 00:13:02.336 --> 00:13:03.496
 prisoners of war, Bob,
 
 00:13:03.537 --> 00:13:05.357
 you're considering the United States to be
 
 00:13:05.398 --> 00:13:07.759
 a legal entity, a real, legit combatant,
 
 00:13:07.820 --> 00:13:08.019
 right?
 
 00:13:08.419 --> 00:13:10.000
 So what that means is because Britain
 
 00:13:10.020 --> 00:13:12.042
 refuses to recognize all these patriot
 
 00:13:12.081 --> 00:13:14.443
 POWs as legit POWs,
 
 00:13:14.484 --> 00:13:16.784
 it doesn't grant them the basic human
 
 00:13:16.845 --> 00:13:19.326
 rights that they would get, ironically,
 
 00:13:19.386 --> 00:13:22.149
 if they were French POWs or Spanish POWs.
 
 00:13:22.782 --> 00:13:23.761
 Right.
 
 00:13:23.782 --> 00:13:26.783
 Then the story does look a lot different
 
 00:13:26.822 --> 00:13:27.864
 from these other places,
 
 00:13:27.884 --> 00:13:29.844
 and I think it makes us think how
 
 00:13:29.903 --> 00:13:31.105
 it must have looked to people at the
 
 00:13:31.144 --> 00:13:32.524
 time, wherever they were.
 
 00:13:32.565 --> 00:13:32.764
 I mean,
 
 00:13:32.784 --> 00:13:33.784
 they would have thought of it as a
 
 00:13:33.845 --> 00:13:36.326
 much different story than the way
 
 00:13:36.385 --> 00:13:38.106
 sometimes we think of it as just these
 
 00:13:38.147 --> 00:13:40.126
 thirteen colonies who have this,
 
 00:13:41.248 --> 00:13:43.447
 and we focus a lot on the war
 
 00:13:43.548 --> 00:13:45.249
 as it happened in the thirteen colonies,
 
 00:13:45.288 --> 00:13:46.830
 but you're really showing how it is really
 
 00:13:46.850 --> 00:13:48.029
 a global phenomenon.
 
 00:13:48.927 --> 00:13:50.288
 If you're in London,
 
 00:13:50.308 --> 00:13:51.769
 you're not simply thinking about what's
 
 00:13:51.809 --> 00:13:53.091
 happening in South Carolina.
 
 00:13:53.130 --> 00:13:54.832
 You also have to think about Jamaica and
 
 00:13:54.993 --> 00:13:56.614
 India and other places,
 
 00:13:56.653 --> 00:13:59.495
 the Gibraltar places that the empire has
 
 00:13:59.535 --> 00:14:00.197
 to protect.
 
 00:14:00.897 --> 00:14:02.278
 Yeah, one way to say that, Bob,
 
 00:14:02.337 --> 00:14:05.020
 is that by the war's climactic final
 
 00:14:05.061 --> 00:14:05.701
 stages,
 
 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:08.503
 Britain controls about a hundred thousand
 
 00:14:08.663 --> 00:14:09.464
 military men.
 
 00:14:10.284 --> 00:14:12.826
 But because it's now stretched thin in a
 
 00:14:12.866 --> 00:14:16.028
 global war that encompasses North America,
 
 00:14:16.389 --> 00:14:17.090
 that encompasses
 
 00:14:17.330 --> 00:14:19.412
 anywhere around the world that France and
 
 00:14:19.472 --> 00:14:22.054
 Spain and the Netherlands want to engage,
 
 00:14:22.235 --> 00:14:24.817
 and encompasses a major theater in India
 
 00:14:24.837 --> 00:14:26.000
 with the Kingdom of Mysore,
 
 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:28.341
 a major theater in the Trans-Appalachian
 
 00:14:28.402 --> 00:14:28.722
 West.
 
 00:14:29.783 --> 00:14:33.467
 Only of those hundred thousand British
 
 00:14:33.668 --> 00:14:34.970
 Allied war fighters
 
 00:14:35.470 --> 00:14:37.811
 Only three in ten are in North America
 
 00:14:37.870 --> 00:14:39.831
 fighting George Washington and the
 
 00:14:39.871 --> 00:14:40.351
 Patriots.
 
 00:14:40.432 --> 00:14:41.153
 And to be clear,
 
 00:14:41.452 --> 00:14:43.533
 that's one reason why George Washington
 
 00:14:43.673 --> 00:14:45.335
 and his land forces are able to be
 
 00:14:45.375 --> 00:14:48.275
 as potent as they are in the latter
 
 00:14:48.316 --> 00:14:49.576
 stages of the war,
 
 00:14:49.615 --> 00:14:51.616
 because Patriot strategy from Congress on
 
 00:14:51.677 --> 00:14:53.957
 down has been to pull Britain in every
 
 00:14:53.998 --> 00:14:55.259
 possible other direction.
 
 00:14:55.499 --> 00:14:55.759
 Right.
 
 00:14:55.779 --> 00:14:58.523
 Tie them up in costly skirmishes anywhere
 
 00:14:59.764 --> 00:15:01.706
 outside of the Thirteen Colonies.
 
 00:15:01.726 --> 00:15:02.687
 So Patriot strategy,
 
 00:15:02.748 --> 00:15:04.850
 I think this is not just happenstance.
 
 00:15:04.990 --> 00:15:06.773
 I would argue if you look at Washington's
 
 00:15:06.812 --> 00:15:07.214
 papers,
 
 00:15:07.254 --> 00:15:09.355
 if you look at John Adams's model treaty,
 
 00:15:09.375 --> 00:15:11.519
 if you look at where Franklin goes,
 
 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:13.802
 this is clearly Patriot strategy from
 
 00:15:13.861 --> 00:15:14.381
 early in the war.
 
 00:15:15.663 --> 00:15:17.365
 There's one opposition member of
 
 00:15:17.404 --> 00:15:19.265
 parliament who says that the ministry got
 
 00:15:19.326 --> 00:15:20.966
 into this war on the presumption that the
 
 00:15:21.287 --> 00:15:23.087
 Americans were cowards and the French were
 
 00:15:23.187 --> 00:15:24.649
 idiots.
 
 00:15:25.750 --> 00:15:27.230
 We call that hubris, right?
 
 00:15:27.331 --> 00:15:27.971
 Hubris.
 
 00:15:27.990 --> 00:15:29.773
 There's a lot of it in England at
 
 00:15:29.812 --> 00:15:30.173
 the time.
 
 00:15:30.253 --> 00:15:33.715
 You and I first met maybe twenty plus
 
 00:15:33.735 --> 00:15:35.255
 years ago when you came to the Colonial
 
 00:15:35.296 --> 00:15:36.476
 Society Graduate Forum.
 
 00:15:37.037 --> 00:15:40.499
 And until I was reading your book,
 
 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:41.220
 this book,
 
 00:15:41.903 --> 00:15:43.744
 I had forgotten that you actually were of
 
 00:15:43.904 --> 00:15:44.504
 British origin.
 
 00:15:44.745 --> 00:15:46.285
 So I wonder if you can tell us
 
 00:15:46.306 --> 00:15:47.167
 how that came to be.
 
 00:15:47.187 --> 00:15:49.769
 You grew up in England, went to Cambridge,
 
 00:15:49.849 --> 00:15:51.890
 and then have become an historian of
 
 00:15:52.091 --> 00:15:52.931
 American history.
 
 00:15:53.552 --> 00:15:53.792
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:53.851 --> 00:15:55.634
 I mean, when we first met in Boston,
 
 00:15:55.833 --> 00:15:56.634
 at twenty years ago,
 
 00:15:56.653 --> 00:15:58.174
 at the Clarence Society of Massachusetts,
 
 00:15:58.255 --> 00:15:59.797
 I was probably fresh off the boat in
 
 00:15:59.856 --> 00:16:00.817
 some sense, right?
 
 00:16:00.878 --> 00:16:03.158
 I was embarked on a PhD in American
 
 00:16:03.198 --> 00:16:04.460
 history at Harvard at the time,
 
 00:16:04.900 --> 00:16:07.182
 but I'd only been in the country probably
 
 00:16:07.221 --> 00:16:08.202
 for a couple of years.
 
 00:16:08.263 --> 00:16:09.844
 Now it's like twenty-five years.
 
 00:16:09.903 --> 00:16:10.485
 Time flies.
 
 00:16:11.346 --> 00:16:12.466
 So I grew up in Britain,
 
 00:16:12.506 --> 00:16:14.649
 as I hope my voice still betrays.
 
 00:16:15.812 --> 00:16:17.072
 I was born in North London,
 
 00:16:17.153 --> 00:16:18.394
 grew up outside Cambridge,
 
 00:16:18.735 --> 00:16:20.236
 had the good fortune to go to a
 
 00:16:20.277 --> 00:16:22.360
 fancy private school and then went to a
 
 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:24.241
 fancy university, University of Cambridge.
 
 00:16:24.663 --> 00:16:26.205
 But I would say that especially in the
 
 00:16:26.264 --> 00:16:27.485
 K-Twelve environment,
 
 00:16:28.126 --> 00:16:30.671
 I was not exposed to any of this.
 
 00:16:30.770 --> 00:16:33.215
 I learned literally zero about the
 
 00:16:33.254 --> 00:16:34.277
 American Revolution.
 
 00:16:34.317 --> 00:16:35.919
 It wasn't that I was sold some sort
 
 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.062
 of pro King George version or something
 
 00:16:38.102 --> 00:16:38.443
 like that.
 
 00:16:38.624 --> 00:16:40.005
 It's not like we sat around calling it
 
 00:16:40.025 --> 00:16:42.230
 the war of American aggression or anything
 
 00:16:42.269 --> 00:16:42.750
 like that.
 
 00:16:43.370 --> 00:16:44.631
 We just didn't talk about it, right?
 
 00:16:44.672 --> 00:16:48.173
 So we studied the Tudors endlessly as,
 
 00:16:48.193 --> 00:16:48.495
 you know,
 
 00:16:48.774 --> 00:16:50.875
 Henry VIII and then Queen Elizabeth defeat
 
 00:16:50.916 --> 00:16:53.337
 Catholic France and Catholic Spain and
 
 00:16:53.357 --> 00:16:54.499
 then the Pope himself.
 
 00:16:54.818 --> 00:16:56.059
 And then we jumped forward, Bob,
 
 00:16:56.100 --> 00:16:56.899
 if you can believe it,
 
 00:16:56.980 --> 00:16:58.620
 from the Tudors to World War II when
 
 00:17:00.162 --> 00:17:02.464
 Britain defeats the Nazis single-handedly,
 
 00:17:02.504 --> 00:17:02.764
 folks.
 
 00:17:02.783 --> 00:17:03.345
 Did you know that?
 
 00:17:03.485 --> 00:17:04.384
 Single-handedly.
 
 00:17:04.826 --> 00:17:06.026
 That's what I was taught back in the
 
 00:17:06.046 --> 00:17:06.307
 day.
 
 00:17:06.666 --> 00:17:07.267
 So I think, you know,
 
 00:17:07.287 --> 00:17:08.847
 what I've learned from that experience
 
 00:17:08.887 --> 00:17:10.709
 looking back on it is that every
 
 00:17:10.749 --> 00:17:11.210
 country...
 
 00:17:11.829 --> 00:17:13.672
 often teaches its schoolchildren
 
 00:17:13.751 --> 00:17:15.473
 selective, self-sort-serving,
 
 00:17:15.574 --> 00:17:17.075
 narrow nationalist stories.
 
 00:17:17.776 --> 00:17:18.936
 I think we'd see the same in South
 
 00:17:18.977 --> 00:17:20.258
 Africa or Germany or France,
 
 00:17:20.278 --> 00:17:20.718
 anywhere else,
 
 00:17:20.758 --> 00:17:22.240
 different versions of the same impulse.
 
 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.222
 So it's not hugely surprising that I think
 
 00:17:25.363 --> 00:17:27.104
 we in America, and I'm now a U.S.
 
 00:17:27.144 --> 00:17:29.266
 citizen despite this silly voice.
 
 00:17:29.967 --> 00:17:30.988
 Congratulations and welcome.
 
 00:17:31.127 --> 00:17:31.488
 Thank you.
 
 00:17:31.648 --> 00:17:31.989
 Thank you.
 
 00:17:32.028 --> 00:17:34.431
 Yes, I vote early and often, Bob,
 
 00:17:34.451 --> 00:17:34.851
 let me assure you.
 
 00:17:36.673 --> 00:17:38.275
 It's not surprising, therefore,
 
 00:17:38.295 --> 00:17:43.599
 that we in America have stripped the
 
 00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:47.002
 American Revolution of its global
 
 00:17:47.103 --> 00:17:49.065
 entanglements over the last two hundred
 
 00:17:49.085 --> 00:17:51.146
 and fifty years because we've been
 
 00:17:51.186 --> 00:17:54.170
 invested since the founding in the process
 
 00:17:54.210 --> 00:17:55.050
 of nation building.
 
 00:17:55.111 --> 00:17:56.691
 That's a natural impulse when you're
 
 00:17:56.730 --> 00:17:57.751
 creating a new country,
 
 00:17:57.932 --> 00:18:01.932
 to find heroic set pieces in which plucky
 
 00:18:02.192 --> 00:18:04.253
 homegrown heroes defeat all the king's
 
 00:18:04.294 --> 00:18:06.713
 horses and all the king's men entirely on
 
 00:18:06.733 --> 00:18:07.153
 their own.
 
 00:18:07.233 --> 00:18:10.134
 But the product of that nation building
 
 00:18:10.335 --> 00:18:13.736
 has been a bunch of myths that the
 
 00:18:13.776 --> 00:18:14.915
 patriots did it alone,
 
 00:18:15.317 --> 00:18:16.876
 that everyone was a patriot,
 
 00:18:16.936 --> 00:18:18.698
 that patriot victory was inevitable,
 
 00:18:18.938 --> 00:18:20.018
 none of which are true.
 
 00:18:20.837 --> 00:18:22.479
 of course right so it's much more
 
 00:18:22.499 --> 00:18:24.099
 interesting i think to get back to the
 
 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:27.221
 complexities of that messy global war it
 
 00:18:27.241 --> 00:18:29.123
 really is we're talking with rick bell
 
 00:18:29.163 --> 00:18:31.023
 professor of history at the university of
 
 00:18:31.064 --> 00:18:33.904
 maryland author of a great new book on
 
 00:18:33.924 --> 00:18:35.465
 the american revolution the american
 
 00:18:35.506 --> 00:18:37.967
 revolution and the fate of the world which
 
 00:18:38.086 --> 00:18:40.729
 i recommend and you can tell your
 
 00:18:40.769 --> 00:18:42.309
 publisher i will be using this in my
 
 00:18:42.349 --> 00:18:44.211
 classes and will be recommending it to
 
 00:18:44.270 --> 00:18:45.810
 anyone who wants to know the story of
 
 00:18:45.830 --> 00:18:46.471
 the revolution
 
 00:18:46.991 --> 00:18:48.471
 We love to hear it.
 
 00:18:48.491 --> 00:18:48.811
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:18:48.832 --> 00:18:52.992
 And another of these characters that and
 
 00:18:53.012 --> 00:18:55.232
 whole episodes that really is forgotten is
 
 00:18:55.252 --> 00:18:57.693
 the story of Bernardo Galvez and what's
 
 00:18:57.713 --> 00:18:59.314
 happening in the Gulf of Mexico.
 
 00:18:59.453 --> 00:19:03.654
 And with actually Spain seeing this,
 
 00:19:04.015 --> 00:19:04.174
 you know,
 
 00:19:04.214 --> 00:19:06.055
 Spain's not getting into the war to
 
 00:19:06.095 --> 00:19:07.434
 support American independence,
 
 00:19:07.474 --> 00:19:09.195
 but they have declared war on England.
 
 00:19:09.256 --> 00:19:09.615
 And of course,
 
 00:19:09.635 --> 00:19:11.236
 their first objective is to get back
 
 00:19:11.276 --> 00:19:11.915
 Gibraltar.
 
 00:19:12.496 --> 00:19:14.636
 And then Galvez really is driving these
 
 00:19:14.656 --> 00:19:16.477
 herds of cattle down to Florida.
 
 00:19:17.542 --> 00:19:19.462
 Yeah, so I live near Washington, D.C.
 
 00:19:19.482 --> 00:19:19.743
 In fact,
 
 00:19:19.804 --> 00:19:21.384
 I'm sitting in Washington right now as
 
 00:19:21.423 --> 00:19:22.384
 we're doing this.
 
 00:19:22.604 --> 00:19:24.585
 And there's a statue of this guy,
 
 00:19:24.785 --> 00:19:26.484
 Bernardo de Galvez,
 
 00:19:26.565 --> 00:19:29.326
 in a forlorn park near the State
 
 00:19:29.365 --> 00:19:30.705
 Department, near Foggy Bottom.
 
 00:19:30.786 --> 00:19:34.067
 And I'm sure people walk past that every
 
 00:19:34.106 --> 00:19:34.326
 day.
 
 00:19:34.386 --> 00:19:35.987
 And if they glance at the statue and
 
 00:19:36.007 --> 00:19:37.268
 see the name, they're like, who is that?
 
 00:19:37.528 --> 00:19:38.548
 Why is that person here?
 
 00:19:39.367 --> 00:19:41.429
 He does not have the name recognition of
 
 00:19:41.528 --> 00:19:43.990
 a Baron Steuben or a Marquis de Lafayette,
 
 00:19:44.030 --> 00:19:45.250
 but he deserves to.
 
 00:19:45.310 --> 00:19:46.071
 In fact, I believe,
 
 00:19:46.152 --> 00:19:47.231
 don't quote me on this, Bob,
 
 00:19:47.613 --> 00:19:49.913
 that he's one of only eight foreign
 
 00:19:50.493 --> 00:19:52.694
 foreigners to have been granted honorary
 
 00:19:52.974 --> 00:19:55.156
 US citizenship over the last two hundred
 
 00:19:55.176 --> 00:19:55.656
 and fifty years.
 
 00:19:55.717 --> 00:19:56.616
 No fact checks, please.
 
 00:19:58.038 --> 00:19:59.939
 So who was Galvez?
 
 00:19:59.959 --> 00:20:00.919
 For a quick refresher,
 
 00:20:01.700 --> 00:20:04.060
 Galvez was the Spanish governor of Spanish
 
 00:20:04.101 --> 00:20:05.801
 Louisiana at the start of the war.
 
 00:20:06.201 --> 00:20:09.363
 And he goes on a rampage through British
 
 00:20:09.762 --> 00:20:12.124
 territories, especially Florida,
 
 00:20:12.625 --> 00:20:14.885
 which used to be a Spanish territory,
 
 00:20:14.925 --> 00:20:17.346
 but in the year of the British territory.
 
 00:20:18.126 --> 00:20:20.169
 trying to reclaim those territories for
 
 00:20:20.568 --> 00:20:20.949
 Spain.
 
 00:20:20.969 --> 00:20:23.070
 And he has remarkable success also
 
 00:20:23.131 --> 00:20:25.593
 building a really multi-ethnic,
 
 00:20:25.732 --> 00:20:28.094
 multilingual coalition of Spanish and
 
 00:20:28.173 --> 00:20:30.576
 French and indigenous people.
 
 00:20:30.615 --> 00:20:31.836
 Really fascinating stuff.
 
 00:20:32.037 --> 00:20:34.259
 Kathleen Duval, in her terrific book,
 
 00:20:34.358 --> 00:20:35.159
 Independence Lost,
 
 00:20:35.179 --> 00:20:36.220
 has written more about this.
 
 00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:39.142
 And he's part and parcel of Spanish
 
 00:20:39.241 --> 00:20:41.084
 engagement against Britain
 
 00:20:42.104 --> 00:20:42.964
 during the revolution.
 
 00:20:43.345 --> 00:20:44.846
 Spain is allied with France.
 
 00:20:45.286 --> 00:20:47.167
 France is allied with George Washington.
 
 00:20:47.188 --> 00:20:49.068
 So by the transitive powers of allying
 
 00:20:49.088 --> 00:20:49.628
 with France,
 
 00:20:50.309 --> 00:20:53.112
 Spain is on the same team as George
 
 00:20:53.152 --> 00:20:53.571
 Washington.
 
 00:20:53.632 --> 00:20:55.012
 But they have very different objectives,
 
 00:20:55.073 --> 00:20:56.673
 as you point out, Bob.
 
 00:20:56.733 --> 00:21:00.777
 Spain is an absolutist Catholic monarchy
 
 00:21:00.817 --> 00:21:02.317
 with an empire of its own.
 
 00:21:02.917 --> 00:21:04.859
 And so it would be weird that they
 
 00:21:04.900 --> 00:21:06.320
 get into bed with a group of
 
 00:21:06.500 --> 00:21:07.601
 anti-imperial,
 
 00:21:07.760 --> 00:21:10.123
 anti-monarchical Protestant insurgents.
 
 00:21:10.182 --> 00:21:11.203
 But they do, effectively.
 
 00:21:11.864 --> 00:21:15.186
 And Spain's goal is not really to support
 
 00:21:15.207 --> 00:21:18.568
 George Washington for the cause of
 
 00:21:18.888 --> 00:21:19.849
 American liberty,
 
 00:21:20.130 --> 00:21:23.992
 but to knock the British Empire down to
 
 00:21:24.053 --> 00:21:26.575
 size while it can and to reclaim Spanish
 
 00:21:26.615 --> 00:21:27.215
 territories.
 
 00:21:27.316 --> 00:21:28.876
 I mentioned Florida as an example,
 
 00:21:29.237 --> 00:21:33.119
 but we could do Honduras or Belize as
 
 00:21:33.339 --> 00:21:34.141
 other examples.
 
 00:21:34.181 --> 00:21:35.541
 And then, of course, there's Gibraltar,
 
 00:21:35.561 --> 00:21:36.863
 which you mentioned in your question.
 
 00:21:36.883 --> 00:21:37.343
 Right.
 
 00:21:37.442 --> 00:21:40.564
 Gibraltar is this rocky outcrop on Spain's
 
 00:21:40.723 --> 00:21:41.403
 southern tip,
 
 00:21:41.423 --> 00:21:42.884
 which guards the gates of the
 
 00:21:42.904 --> 00:21:43.525
 Mediterranean.
 
 00:21:44.005 --> 00:21:44.685
 It had, of course,
 
 00:21:44.705 --> 00:21:46.506
 been a Spanish possession for centuries.
 
 00:21:46.526 --> 00:21:48.446
 And then Britain captures it in some
 
 00:21:48.487 --> 00:21:49.928
 previous war, in like, in like,
 
 00:21:50.147 --> 00:21:51.048
 or thereabouts.
 
 00:21:51.887 --> 00:21:54.449
 Spain desperately wants Britain off their
 
 00:21:54.528 --> 00:21:55.329
 front porch.
 
 00:21:56.190 --> 00:21:58.411
 And so Spain gets into the war in
 
 00:21:58.490 --> 00:21:58.871
 part
 
 00:21:59.750 --> 00:22:01.973
 to try to seize Gibraltar while Britain is
 
 00:22:02.013 --> 00:22:04.017
 distracted fighting its own civil war.
 
 00:22:04.397 --> 00:22:07.801
 They even offered neutrality if Britain
 
 00:22:07.821 --> 00:22:09.104
 would give them Gibraltar back.
 
 00:22:09.768 --> 00:22:10.868
 Which is an amazing moment.
 
 00:22:10.929 --> 00:22:11.628
 Spain said, OK,
 
 00:22:11.648 --> 00:22:13.390
 we won't get in against you, Britain,
 
 00:22:13.430 --> 00:22:15.171
 if you just give us Gibraltar now.
 
 00:22:15.250 --> 00:22:16.592
 And King George says no.
 
 00:22:16.632 --> 00:22:17.732
 And George Washington says,
 
 00:22:17.813 --> 00:22:19.233
 what the hell are you doing, man?
 
 00:22:19.253 --> 00:22:20.134
 You had a chance.
 
 00:22:21.934 --> 00:22:22.875
 So that leads to a three and a
 
 00:22:22.915 --> 00:22:24.576
 half year Spanish and French siege of
 
 00:22:24.596 --> 00:22:26.637
 Gibraltar, which is the longest siege,
 
 00:22:26.657 --> 00:22:27.637
 the largest siege.
 
 00:22:27.678 --> 00:22:29.138
 I think it's the largest military
 
 00:22:29.179 --> 00:22:31.580
 engagement of the entire Revolutionary War
 
 00:22:32.020 --> 00:22:33.642
 is the siege of Gibraltar, which fails.
 
 00:22:34.061 --> 00:22:34.762
 at the end.
 
 00:22:34.782 --> 00:22:38.626
 So Spain pours everything into knocking
 
 00:22:38.666 --> 00:22:40.127
 Britain down a peg or two,
 
 00:22:40.468 --> 00:22:42.130
 has some huge gains,
 
 00:22:42.830 --> 00:22:44.471
 like under Galvez in Florida,
 
 00:22:44.792 --> 00:22:46.173
 but also some huge failures.
 
 00:22:46.193 --> 00:22:46.954
 Think of Gibraltar,
 
 00:22:47.134 --> 00:22:48.316
 think of the English invasion in the
 
 00:22:48.336 --> 00:22:49.317
 seventeenth century.
 
 00:22:50.557 --> 00:22:52.059
 That English invasion in the seventeenth
 
 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:53.580
 century,
 
 00:22:53.641 --> 00:22:55.563
 Spain and France are cooperating and have
 
 00:22:55.583 --> 00:22:57.625
 this huge force that is going into the
 
 00:22:57.684 --> 00:22:58.365
 English Channel.
 
 00:22:59.483 --> 00:23:00.904
 And of course, Britain's army,
 
 00:23:00.944 --> 00:23:01.326
 as you said,
 
 00:23:01.365 --> 00:23:02.767
 is displaced throughout the world.
 
 00:23:02.807 --> 00:23:05.387
 So they're calling together basically any
 
 00:23:05.429 --> 00:23:07.589
 guy who's around who can is going to
 
 00:23:07.630 --> 00:23:09.471
 go and defend the islands against this
 
 00:23:09.872 --> 00:23:10.852
 massive armada.
 
 00:23:10.872 --> 00:23:12.693
 It's a huge thing.
 
 00:23:12.753 --> 00:23:14.694
 And then it's really a disaster for the
 
 00:23:14.734 --> 00:23:15.736
 French and the Spanish.
 
 00:23:16.351 --> 00:23:18.232
 Yeah, I mean, by there,
 
 00:23:18.252 --> 00:23:19.693
 but for the grace of God, really,
 
 00:23:19.733 --> 00:23:21.916
 does Britain not get successfully invaded
 
 00:23:21.957 --> 00:23:23.878
 by France and Spain in seventeen seventy
 
 00:23:23.898 --> 00:23:23.979
 nine?
 
 00:23:23.999 --> 00:23:24.819
 The plan, by the way,
 
 00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.701
 is to capture the two great dockyards on
 
 00:23:27.761 --> 00:23:28.782
 Britain's south coast,
 
 00:23:28.864 --> 00:23:29.845
 Portsmouth and Plymouth.
 
 00:23:30.105 --> 00:23:31.566
 If they can capture those dockyards,
 
 00:23:31.586 --> 00:23:32.968
 then they basically crippled the Royal
 
 00:23:33.008 --> 00:23:34.128
 Navy and the game is over.
 
 00:23:34.709 --> 00:23:36.269
 But they failed to do that in part
 
 00:23:36.309 --> 00:23:40.791
 because of the tenacious opposition by,
 
 00:23:40.892 --> 00:23:41.711
 for lack of a better word,
 
 00:23:41.731 --> 00:23:43.512
 the Home Guard that they put out,
 
 00:23:43.593 --> 00:23:44.334
 Dad's Army.
 
 00:23:44.973 --> 00:23:46.714
 They get some retired British general,
 
 00:23:47.015 --> 00:23:48.756
 Admiral, Admiral Hardy,
 
 00:23:48.776 --> 00:23:49.415
 I think his name is.
 
 00:23:50.056 --> 00:23:51.436
 to come out of retirement who hasn't been
 
 00:23:51.457 --> 00:23:53.137
 to sea in twenty years to try to
 
 00:23:53.939 --> 00:23:55.799
 annoy the French Navy and the Spanish
 
 00:23:55.859 --> 00:23:56.240
 Navy.
 
 00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:57.161
 But fundamentally,
 
 00:23:57.201 --> 00:23:59.442
 however good hard it is, it's the winds.
 
 00:23:59.482 --> 00:24:01.364
 The winds don't cooperate and the French
 
 00:24:01.384 --> 00:24:03.644
 and Spanish Navy can't land and they
 
 00:24:03.684 --> 00:24:05.487
 haven't brought enough drinking water on
 
 00:24:05.507 --> 00:24:06.186
 their own ships,
 
 00:24:06.227 --> 00:24:07.607
 which seems like an error to me.
 
 00:24:08.729 --> 00:24:10.690
 And that causes huge rates of scurvy and
 
 00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:12.631
 mortality and forces them to turn around.
 
 00:24:12.651 --> 00:24:14.212
 So it's a bit of a debacle as
 
 00:24:14.252 --> 00:24:15.794
 far as France and Spain are concerned.
 
 00:24:16.554 --> 00:24:18.655
 yeah and of course not only once again
 
 00:24:18.976 --> 00:24:23.319
 britannia rules the waves it's uh yes it's
 
 00:24:23.339 --> 00:24:25.162
 a lucky escape for britain quite honestly
 
 00:24:25.182 --> 00:24:26.482
 but yes britannia rules the waves yeah
 
 00:24:27.044 --> 00:24:28.805
 there are some tremendous paintings too of
 
 00:24:28.845 --> 00:24:30.626
 the siege of gibraltar and the defeat of
 
 00:24:30.646 --> 00:24:31.708
 the fire boats i mean this
 
 00:24:32.488 --> 00:24:34.289
 loomed large at the time to have these
 
 00:24:34.329 --> 00:24:37.551
 tremendous pictorial representations of
 
 00:24:37.592 --> 00:24:38.432
 this heroism.
 
 00:24:38.932 --> 00:24:40.013
 Another way to say that, Bob,
 
 00:24:40.054 --> 00:24:41.795
 is that the British public,
 
 00:24:41.835 --> 00:24:44.477
 who've been down in the dumps about this
 
 00:24:44.636 --> 00:24:47.218
 endless quagmire they've been fighting in
 
 00:24:47.298 --> 00:24:47.979
 North America,
 
 00:24:47.999 --> 00:24:50.260
 which is costing a lot of British blood
 
 00:24:50.421 --> 00:24:51.981
 and treasure in seventy-six,
 
 00:24:52.061 --> 00:24:53.502
 seventy-seven, seventy-eight,
 
 00:24:54.262 --> 00:24:55.763
 the British public gets a new lease of
 
 00:24:55.884 --> 00:24:58.487
 life and morale for the war actually
 
 00:24:58.527 --> 00:25:01.328
 improves when Britain's greatest enemies,
 
 00:25:01.628 --> 00:25:02.690
 France and Spain,
 
 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:05.451
 team up to try to destroy Britain or
 
 00:25:05.491 --> 00:25:06.412
 wipe it off the map.
 
 00:25:06.432 --> 00:25:08.213
 That is a huge boost to military
 
 00:25:08.253 --> 00:25:08.913
 recruitment, right?
 
 00:25:08.933 --> 00:25:10.434
 Because if you're a British person in the
 
 00:25:10.454 --> 00:25:11.195
 eighteenth century,
 
 00:25:11.455 --> 00:25:13.458
 you may be in two minds about beating
 
 00:25:13.518 --> 00:25:15.138
 up on some American farmers who you
 
 00:25:15.358 --> 00:25:17.559
 regard as your cousins, your brothers.
 
 00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:20.040
 But you're not in two minds about beating
 
 00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:20.701
 up a Frenchman.
 
 00:25:21.281 --> 00:25:21.902
 This is, you know,
 
 00:25:22.342 --> 00:25:24.482
 catnip to the British public when France
 
 00:25:24.563 --> 00:25:25.124
 joins the war.
 
 00:25:25.263 --> 00:25:26.744
 Yeah, really.
 
 00:25:26.765 --> 00:25:27.944
 We're talking with Richard Bell,
 
 00:25:27.964 --> 00:25:29.546
 professor of history at the University of
 
 00:25:29.586 --> 00:25:30.006
 Maryland,
 
 00:25:30.125 --> 00:25:32.846
 author of The American Revolution and the
 
 00:25:32.906 --> 00:25:33.907
 Fate of the World.
 
 00:25:34.662 --> 00:25:36.002
 Your mention of Hardy, of course,
 
 00:25:36.143 --> 00:25:37.443
 brings to mind a different Hardy,
 
 00:25:37.544 --> 00:25:40.825
 and Lord Nelson is part of this expedition
 
 00:25:40.865 --> 00:25:42.685
 to Nicaragua, which is extraordinary.
 
 00:25:43.226 --> 00:25:45.067
 Yeah, he's not a lord yet.
 
 00:25:45.086 --> 00:25:45.988
 He's not a lord yet.
 
 00:25:46.208 --> 00:25:48.048
 I think he's a captain or a lieutenant.
 
 00:25:48.489 --> 00:25:49.088
 Don't quote me.
 
 00:25:49.148 --> 00:25:49.950
 I get it right in the book.
 
 00:25:50.650 --> 00:25:52.391
 um he's at the start of his career
 
 00:25:52.490 --> 00:25:53.912
 and he's leading a force of i think
 
 00:25:54.011 --> 00:25:56.733
 fifty british marines uh from british
 
 00:25:56.773 --> 00:26:00.616
 jamaica into spanish central america to
 
 00:26:00.676 --> 00:26:03.198
 try to protect some nearby british logging
 
 00:26:03.258 --> 00:26:06.259
 colonies and maybe capture just enough
 
 00:26:06.299 --> 00:26:09.082
 spanish territory on the isthmus of panama
 
 00:26:09.462 --> 00:26:11.983
 to effectively cleave the spanish empire
 
 00:26:12.064 --> 00:26:14.586
 into two right and get a route to
 
 00:26:14.625 --> 00:26:16.446
 the pacific for great britain which would
 
 00:26:16.467 --> 00:26:18.929
 be a game-changing thing yeah and yet
 
 00:26:20.009 --> 00:26:23.611
 When the British Marines land on, I think,
 
 00:26:23.651 --> 00:26:25.832
 near the San Juan River in modern day
 
 00:26:25.872 --> 00:26:26.573
 Nicaragua,
 
 00:26:27.153 --> 00:26:29.634
 they are not greeted as liberators by the
 
 00:26:29.653 --> 00:26:30.555
 indigenous people.
 
 00:26:30.674 --> 00:26:32.655
 No one ever greets a foreign invasion as
 
 00:26:32.675 --> 00:26:33.415
 the liberators,
 
 00:26:33.455 --> 00:26:34.576
 just don't buy the rhetoric.
 
 00:26:35.317 --> 00:26:36.557
 Well, we always think they will.
 
 00:26:36.998 --> 00:26:38.199
 We always think they will, right?
 
 00:26:38.259 --> 00:26:40.079
 And the troops will be home by Christmas,
 
 00:26:40.099 --> 00:26:41.180
 Bob, as well, right?
 
 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:41.800
 Don't believe it.
 
 00:26:42.901 --> 00:26:46.063
 And the disease environment for pale,
 
 00:26:46.843 --> 00:26:49.025
 sickly British soldiers is incredible.
 
 00:26:49.105 --> 00:26:50.846
 Mosquitoes do their deadly work,
 
 00:26:50.905 --> 00:26:53.267
 and everyone gets malaria and dies on the
 
 00:26:53.307 --> 00:26:54.667
 beach, pretty much.
 
 00:26:55.909 --> 00:26:57.611
 Lieutenant Nelson or Captain Nelson,
 
 00:26:57.631 --> 00:26:58.951
 whatever rank he is at the time,
 
 00:26:59.673 --> 00:27:01.314
 is lucky to survive.
 
 00:27:01.334 --> 00:27:02.055
 He's invalid.
 
 00:27:02.154 --> 00:27:04.136
 He does get sick, but he doesn't die.
 
 00:27:04.377 --> 00:27:04.897
 And of course,
 
 00:27:05.238 --> 00:27:07.701
 if he had died in seventeen seventy nine,
 
 00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:08.382
 seventeen eighty,
 
 00:27:08.741 --> 00:27:10.683
 British history during the Napoleonic Wars
 
 00:27:10.723 --> 00:27:12.065
 could be very, very different.
 
 00:27:12.085 --> 00:27:13.886
 Yes, really would.
 
 00:27:15.208 --> 00:27:16.509
 I mean, the book really has,
 
 00:27:17.309 --> 00:27:18.550
 I fear we may be giving it all
 
 00:27:18.631 --> 00:27:18.911
 away,
 
 00:27:18.951 --> 00:27:21.833
 but there are so many interesting pieces,
 
 00:27:21.853 --> 00:27:24.253
 surprises really on every page that it's
 
 00:27:24.315 --> 00:27:27.135
 well worth talking about many of them.
 
 00:27:28.537 --> 00:27:30.378
 I think there's so many surprises here for
 
 00:27:30.398 --> 00:27:32.019
 me as a researcher and writer.
 
 00:27:32.579 --> 00:27:33.941
 I think there's a surprise, like you said,
 
 00:27:33.980 --> 00:27:35.321
 in every page and every chapter.
 
 00:27:35.342 --> 00:27:36.742
 So we could do all day and people
 
 00:27:36.762 --> 00:27:37.824
 would still have a reason to go buy
 
 00:27:37.844 --> 00:27:38.144
 the book.
 
 00:27:38.644 --> 00:27:40.265
 That's right.
 
 00:27:40.325 --> 00:27:41.786
 What do you think surprised you the most
 
 00:27:41.846 --> 00:27:43.767
 as you were doing the research and writing
 
 00:27:43.847 --> 00:27:44.147
 the book?
 
 00:27:44.817 --> 00:27:48.800
 So the disconnect between how we talk
 
 00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:51.923
 about this war in pop culture in America,
 
 00:27:52.222 --> 00:27:54.444
 which is David versus Goliath,
 
 00:27:54.545 --> 00:27:56.086
 rebels versus redcoats,
 
 00:27:56.145 --> 00:27:57.708
 colonists versus crown,
 
 00:27:58.288 --> 00:28:02.510
 and the rich veins of scholarship proving
 
 00:28:02.691 --> 00:28:05.833
 otherwise that academic historians have
 
 00:28:05.853 --> 00:28:08.174
 been mining so brilliantly for the last
 
 00:28:08.234 --> 00:28:10.317
 twenty, thirty years is really crazy.
 
 00:28:10.836 --> 00:28:12.738
 uh to me and so you know this
 
 00:28:12.778 --> 00:28:14.240
 book is an attempt to sort of get
 
 00:28:14.299 --> 00:28:17.981
 my arms around right or more different
 
 00:28:18.122 --> 00:28:21.344
 bodies of scholarship which each on their
 
 00:28:21.525 --> 00:28:24.105
 own say something about the global
 
 00:28:24.145 --> 00:28:25.887
 dimensions of the american revolution but
 
 00:28:26.028 --> 00:28:28.409
 aren't normally gathered together or made
 
 00:28:28.630 --> 00:28:30.770
 to talk to each other and so you
 
 00:28:30.790 --> 00:28:32.592
 know scholars who write about the role of
 
 00:28:32.711 --> 00:28:34.433
 german soldiers the hessians for instance
 
 00:28:34.634 --> 00:28:34.773
 yeah
 
 00:28:35.294 --> 00:28:37.515
 in the revolution normally don't get to
 
 00:28:37.555 --> 00:28:40.856
 talk to scholars of indigenous America
 
 00:28:40.896 --> 00:28:43.557
 like Kathleen Duval, for instance.
 
 00:28:43.597 --> 00:28:45.618
 So by putting all their scholarships in
 
 00:28:45.659 --> 00:28:47.619
 the same book between the same covers,
 
 00:28:47.961 --> 00:28:49.300
 we're getting fourteen different
 
 00:28:49.340 --> 00:28:52.502
 conversations together and we get to see
 
 00:28:52.522 --> 00:28:54.124
 that they add up to far more than
 
 00:28:54.163 --> 00:28:56.144
 the sum of their individual parts, right?
 
 00:28:56.464 --> 00:28:57.905
 So we get to see the global picture
 
 00:28:58.165 --> 00:28:59.826
 when we put together these different
 
 00:28:59.906 --> 00:29:02.567
 narrow veins for the first time.
 
 00:29:02.627 --> 00:29:03.949
 I think this is a brand new history
 
 00:29:04.429 --> 00:29:05.308
 of the American Revolution.
 
 00:29:05.328 --> 00:29:06.529
 I don't think there's anything quite like
 
 00:29:07.049 --> 00:29:08.871
 this out there on the market.
 
 00:29:08.891 --> 00:29:10.230
 So I hope this will do some myth-busting
 
 00:29:10.290 --> 00:29:11.652
 and some game-changing and broaden
 
 00:29:11.672 --> 00:29:13.172
 people's perspective.
 
 00:29:13.893 --> 00:29:14.532
 I agree.
 
 00:29:14.593 --> 00:29:15.313
 And I think it will.
 
 00:29:15.373 --> 00:29:16.252
 And it just, I mean,
 
 00:29:16.313 --> 00:29:18.193
 as I was reading it and looking at
 
 00:29:18.213 --> 00:29:18.653
 the notes,
 
 00:29:18.713 --> 00:29:21.174
 seeing how much is drawn from the works
 
 00:29:21.255 --> 00:29:22.596
 of, you know, Andrew Jackson,
 
 00:29:22.615 --> 00:29:24.115
 O'Shaughnessy, Frank Cagliano,
 
 00:29:24.155 --> 00:29:25.856
 Frederica Baer, Kathleen Duvall,
 
 00:29:25.896 --> 00:29:27.397
 these other scholars who really have been
 
 00:29:27.438 --> 00:29:29.518
 doing this work really to change the
 
 00:29:29.557 --> 00:29:30.199
 narrative.
 
 00:29:30.618 --> 00:29:31.358
 But we know that
 
 00:29:32.199 --> 00:29:34.080
 narrative really hasn't shifted but it's
 
 00:29:34.121 --> 00:29:36.163
 true right i think this is part of
 
 00:29:36.223 --> 00:29:38.707
 the kind of you know what's new about
 
 00:29:38.727 --> 00:29:40.828
 the american revolution i think a lot
 
 00:29:40.909 --> 00:29:44.093
 rests on what all of this uh generation
 
 00:29:44.113 --> 00:29:45.795
 now of scholarship that you and others
 
 00:29:45.815 --> 00:29:47.436
 have been doing now was this a
 
 00:29:48.327 --> 00:29:50.671
 Was there a moment in around two thousand
 
 00:29:50.711 --> 00:29:52.413
 when scholars said, hey, let's look,
 
 00:29:52.432 --> 00:29:53.894
 let's look at what's happening among the
 
 00:29:54.193 --> 00:29:56.696
 Germans or among the native people?
 
 00:29:57.057 --> 00:29:57.317
 You know,
 
 00:29:57.397 --> 00:29:58.859
 all the individual scholars speak for
 
 00:29:58.880 --> 00:29:59.440
 themselves.
 
 00:29:59.500 --> 00:30:00.500
 But I would say, you know,
 
 00:30:00.902 --> 00:30:03.064
 we within universities and you know this,
 
 00:30:03.104 --> 00:30:04.445
 Bob, from where you sit, you know,
 
 00:30:04.465 --> 00:30:06.007
 we've been asking interesting questions
 
 00:30:06.027 --> 00:30:07.868
 for a long time, I think.
 
 00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:08.170
 Right.
 
 00:30:08.789 --> 00:30:10.832
 And we've all noticed in our own lives
 
 00:30:10.852 --> 00:30:12.353
 that we live in a globalized,
 
 00:30:12.432 --> 00:30:14.433
 entangled world today.
 
 00:30:14.674 --> 00:30:16.736
 And we take those notions back into the
 
 00:30:16.796 --> 00:30:18.116
 eighteenth and nineteenth century.
 
 00:30:18.136 --> 00:30:19.218
 And we look for what's similar,
 
 00:30:19.258 --> 00:30:19.817
 what's different.
 
 00:30:19.857 --> 00:30:21.219
 And we try to analyze that.
 
 00:30:21.239 --> 00:30:22.900
 And it shouldn't really surprise us that
 
 00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:24.481
 the eighteenth century,
 
 00:30:24.501 --> 00:30:26.103
 which is among many things an age of
 
 00:30:26.222 --> 00:30:30.205
 empire, is a globally entangled world.
 
 00:30:30.546 --> 00:30:30.826
 Right.
 
 00:30:31.026 --> 00:30:32.606
 Everything is connected and there are
 
 00:30:32.666 --> 00:30:34.868
 ripple effects, even butterfly effects.
 
 00:30:35.568 --> 00:30:40.573
 effects and so on so yeah I think
 
 00:30:40.633 --> 00:30:43.815
 that the goal is to really platform in
 
 00:30:43.855 --> 00:30:45.757
 this book which is a very public facing
 
 00:30:45.797 --> 00:30:47.657
 book aimed at you know anyone who buys
 
 00:30:47.718 --> 00:30:49.338
 books for Christmas or the airport
 
 00:30:49.358 --> 00:30:50.640
 bookstore on your way on to wait to
 
 00:30:50.660 --> 00:30:53.041
 vacation for Thanksgiving to platform the
 
 00:30:53.082 --> 00:30:54.982
 amazing scholarship of people who've been
 
 00:30:55.002 --> 00:30:57.384
 writing books for fellow historians for
 
 00:30:57.404 --> 00:31:00.507
 the last twenty years right if this brings
 
 00:31:00.606 --> 00:31:01.367
 more attention to
 
 00:31:01.607 --> 00:31:03.289
 to people who do read the end notes
 
 00:31:03.330 --> 00:31:03.971
 like you did,
 
 00:31:04.672 --> 00:31:06.314
 to the work of scholars like Frederica
 
 00:31:06.355 --> 00:31:08.176
 Bayer, who wrote a great book on Hessians,
 
 00:31:09.499 --> 00:31:10.700
 or Cassandra Pibus,
 
 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:12.321
 who wrote a great book about black
 
 00:31:12.382 --> 00:31:15.866
 refugees in the global diaspora after the
 
 00:31:15.886 --> 00:31:17.108
 war, then wonderful.
 
 00:31:17.169 --> 00:31:18.471
 They deserve all the attention they can
 
 00:31:18.490 --> 00:31:18.651
 get.
 
 00:31:19.486 --> 00:31:20.946
 Yes, true.
 
 00:31:20.967 --> 00:31:22.268
 Harry Washington is another of these
 
 00:31:22.307 --> 00:31:24.249
 characters, you know, like John Mosley.
 
 00:31:25.009 --> 00:31:26.769
 Well, he doesn't start in Virginia,
 
 00:31:26.809 --> 00:31:29.971
 but he then makes his way to Nova
 
 00:31:30.011 --> 00:31:31.472
 Scotia, Sierra Leone.
 
 00:31:31.492 --> 00:31:31.673
 I mean,
 
 00:31:31.712 --> 00:31:34.414
 it's a tremendous story of this global war
 
 00:31:34.515 --> 00:31:37.176
 and these individuals then who are moving
 
 00:31:37.196 --> 00:31:39.298
 around in a way we often don't imagine.
 
 00:31:39.877 --> 00:31:40.218
 Yeah, Bob,
 
 00:31:40.258 --> 00:31:41.578
 you and I have probably known about Harry
 
 00:31:41.618 --> 00:31:43.318
 Washington for many years.
 
 00:31:43.398 --> 00:31:43.920
 I can't think.
 
 00:31:44.259 --> 00:31:45.839
 It was probably years ago I first read
 
 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:47.760
 Cassandra Pibus's scholarship and learned
 
 00:31:47.780 --> 00:31:48.882
 about Harry Washington.
 
 00:31:48.902 --> 00:31:50.241
 But I was at a book talk yesterday
 
 00:31:50.261 --> 00:31:50.721
 for this book,
 
 00:31:50.741 --> 00:31:52.222
 and I was talking about Harry Washington.
 
 00:31:52.623 --> 00:31:53.743
 And there were maybe, I don't know,
 
 00:31:53.784 --> 00:31:54.644
 forty people in the room.
 
 00:31:54.683 --> 00:31:55.003
 And I said,
 
 00:31:55.044 --> 00:31:56.404
 how many of you have heard of Harry
 
 00:31:56.424 --> 00:31:56.825
 Washington?
 
 00:31:57.325 --> 00:31:58.445
 And the only two people who put up
 
 00:31:58.465 --> 00:32:00.107
 their hands were my teaching assistants
 
 00:32:00.387 --> 00:32:02.470
 who happened to be there.
 
 00:32:02.490 --> 00:32:03.151
 I'm glad they did.
 
 00:32:03.391 --> 00:32:04.412
 Yeah, I'm glad they did too.
 
 00:32:04.612 --> 00:32:05.913
 But clearly we've got work to do to
 
 00:32:05.933 --> 00:32:07.595
 get the Harry Washington story out there
 
 00:32:07.615 --> 00:32:08.916
 because it's amazing.
 
 00:32:09.237 --> 00:32:11.358
 Why is there not a movie about Harry
 
 00:32:11.378 --> 00:32:13.040
 Washington TV show, right?
 
 00:32:13.540 --> 00:32:15.482
 So in thumbnail form,
 
 00:32:15.502 --> 00:32:17.184
 I'll be very brief here because it does
 
 00:32:17.244 --> 00:32:19.326
 dovetail with the John Mosley story I told
 
 00:32:19.386 --> 00:32:19.768
 earlier on.
 
 00:32:20.548 --> 00:32:21.449
 Born in Africa,
 
 00:32:21.568 --> 00:32:23.590
 enslaved by transatlantic slave dealers,
 
 00:32:24.050 --> 00:32:25.972
 ends up being owned by George Washington
 
 00:32:25.992 --> 00:32:26.732
 at Mount Vernon,
 
 00:32:27.854 --> 00:32:29.955
 and flees to the British side during the
 
 00:32:29.976 --> 00:32:30.296
 war,
 
 00:32:30.776 --> 00:32:33.178
 evacuates with Britain to Nova Scotia in
 
 00:32:33.258 --> 00:32:35.980
 direct contravention of the Fugitive Slave
 
 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.201
 Clause of the peace treaty.
 
 00:32:37.842 --> 00:32:39.163
 ends up in British Nova Scotia,
 
 00:32:39.442 --> 00:32:41.003
 hates it there because being free of
 
 00:32:41.064 --> 00:32:43.546
 slavery is not the same as being treated
 
 00:32:43.586 --> 00:32:44.886
 with respect and dignity.
 
 00:32:45.047 --> 00:32:46.807
 There's plenty of racists in British
 
 00:32:46.847 --> 00:32:47.888
 Canada.
 
 00:32:47.989 --> 00:32:49.849
 Ends up in a new British colony in
 
 00:32:50.030 --> 00:32:51.571
 West Africa called Sierra Leone,
 
 00:32:51.852 --> 00:32:54.394
 which is sold to him as a post-racist
 
 00:32:54.554 --> 00:32:55.213
 paradise.
 
 00:32:55.894 --> 00:32:56.434
 Guess what?
 
 00:32:56.494 --> 00:32:56.974
 It's not.
 
 00:32:57.056 --> 00:32:57.496
 It's not.
 
 00:32:58.056 --> 00:33:01.298
 And so he and others launch what you
 
 00:33:01.337 --> 00:33:04.098
 might describe as a Sierra Leonean
 
 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:06.461
 independence movement against the British
 
 00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:08.061
 Empire in eighteen hundred,
 
 00:33:08.741 --> 00:33:10.982
 which is echoes really the American
 
 00:33:11.022 --> 00:33:12.183
 independence movement that George
 
 00:33:12.203 --> 00:33:14.744
 Washington had started twenty five years
 
 00:33:14.845 --> 00:33:15.105
 earlier,
 
 00:33:15.145 --> 00:33:16.645
 though the outcome in the Sierra Leonean
 
 00:33:16.685 --> 00:33:17.507
 case is quite.
 
 00:33:18.366 --> 00:33:19.887
 different, unfortunately.
 
 00:33:19.948 --> 00:33:21.769
 So Harry is at the center of this
 
 00:33:21.808 --> 00:33:23.490
 global odyssey,
 
 00:33:23.790 --> 00:33:25.191
 and he's such a compelling character,
 
 00:33:25.451 --> 00:33:27.333
 not only because of what he does and
 
 00:33:27.393 --> 00:33:29.273
 what he says or what he believes or
 
 00:33:29.294 --> 00:33:29.814
 what he wants,
 
 00:33:30.173 --> 00:33:31.555
 but also because he's this sort of
 
 00:33:32.155 --> 00:33:34.317
 doppelganger for George Washington going
 
 00:33:34.356 --> 00:33:35.778
 down in a very different universe.
 
 00:33:36.018 --> 00:33:37.159
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:37.179 --> 00:33:37.278
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:37.459 --> 00:33:38.038
 It's amazing.
 
 00:33:38.098 --> 00:33:39.200
 Really an amazing book.
 
 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:40.520
 I know we could spend the rest of
 
 00:33:40.540 --> 00:33:41.661
 the day talking about this.
 
 00:33:41.840 --> 00:33:43.001
 I wonder if there's anything else you
 
 00:33:43.021 --> 00:33:44.182
 would like to share before we
 
 00:33:44.857 --> 00:33:45.238
 let you go.
 
 00:33:45.258 --> 00:33:46.459
 I know you just gave a lecture,
 
 00:33:46.499 --> 00:33:48.380
 and now we've been grilling you.
 
 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:50.240
 Anything else we should share?
 
 00:33:50.320 --> 00:33:52.781
 I love talking about this book.
 
 00:33:52.883 --> 00:33:54.502
 I will just reiterate, folks,
 
 00:33:56.064 --> 00:33:57.345
 a point that Bob and I talked about
 
 00:33:57.384 --> 00:33:58.045
 when we began,
 
 00:33:58.085 --> 00:34:00.767
 which is that while this does tell a
 
 00:34:00.826 --> 00:34:03.828
 global sweeping story that covers lots of
 
 00:34:03.868 --> 00:34:06.390
 places and moves theme by theme,
 
 00:34:06.710 --> 00:34:08.510
 it's also a human story driven by
 
 00:34:08.590 --> 00:34:10.652
 characters and individuals with names and
 
 00:34:10.672 --> 00:34:11.293
 what happens
 
 00:34:11.992 --> 00:34:13.693
 And I'm really proud of the way we
 
 00:34:13.753 --> 00:34:17.614
 try to bind the macro and the micro,
 
 00:34:17.653 --> 00:34:19.735
 the global with the human in this book.
 
 00:34:20.715 --> 00:34:22.195
 How did you decide on the structure of
 
 00:34:22.215 --> 00:34:22.496
 the book,
 
 00:34:22.976 --> 00:34:24.556
 the thematic approach as opposed to a
 
 00:34:24.715 --> 00:34:25.956
 chronological approach,
 
 00:34:26.076 --> 00:34:28.617
 or any number of other ways you could
 
 00:34:28.637 --> 00:34:29.456
 have organized it?
 
 00:34:30.036 --> 00:34:31.318
 Yeah, it's an interesting question, right?
 
 00:34:31.338 --> 00:34:32.858
 It's maybe a bit inside baseball for some
 
 00:34:32.898 --> 00:34:33.818
 people, but as writers,
 
 00:34:33.838 --> 00:34:35.659
 we think about structure a lot, right?
 
 00:34:36.498 --> 00:34:38.820
 The alternative way to write this would be
 
 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:42.461
 a chronological global history.
 
 00:34:42.501 --> 00:34:43.663
 We begin at year one.
 
 00:34:43.722 --> 00:34:44.922
 We end at year whatever.
 
 00:34:45.344 --> 00:34:46.623
 And every paragraph,
 
 00:34:46.664 --> 00:34:47.885
 we jump to a different place.
 
 00:34:47.985 --> 00:34:50.646
 Meanwhile in India, meanwhile in Ireland,
 
 00:34:50.786 --> 00:34:52.367
 meanwhile in Sierra Leone.
 
 00:34:52.447 --> 00:34:54.068
 I think that would just spin you around
 
 00:34:54.088 --> 00:34:55.349
 and have diminishing returns.
 
 00:34:55.809 --> 00:34:57.550
 So I made the decision very early in
 
 00:34:57.570 --> 00:34:59.530
 the project that this was going to pick
 
 00:34:59.610 --> 00:35:02.311
 fourteen or however many different themes
 
 00:35:02.351 --> 00:35:03.811
 and geographies and peoples and
 
 00:35:03.851 --> 00:35:06.873
 individuals and keep the focus on them.
 
 00:35:06.952 --> 00:35:09.333
 Let's say the Irish for twenty pages.
 
 00:35:09.373 --> 00:35:10.934
 And then the next chapter would be about
 
 00:35:11.255 --> 00:35:12.255
 African descended people.
 
 00:35:12.275 --> 00:35:13.414
 And then the next chapter would be about
 
 00:35:13.434 --> 00:35:14.755
 the Caribbean, whatever else,
 
 00:35:14.775 --> 00:35:17.297
 because I wanted people to go deep into
 
 00:35:17.317 --> 00:35:20.077
 the texture of the past.
 
 00:35:20.597 --> 00:35:23.018
 So I'd also say that I began some
 
 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:25.360
 of these chapters when people asked me to
 
 00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:27.161
 give talks about certain subjects.
 
 00:35:27.202 --> 00:35:28.762
 Like, you know, people would ask me,
 
 00:35:28.782 --> 00:35:28.943
 you know,
 
 00:35:29.242 --> 00:35:30.443
 what was the American Revolution like in
 
 00:35:30.483 --> 00:35:30.764
 Britain?
 
 00:35:31.083 --> 00:35:31.943
 And I would say, you know,
 
 00:35:31.983 --> 00:35:32.364
 I don't know.
 
 00:35:32.425 --> 00:35:33.644
 I should go read some books about that.
 
 00:35:33.684 --> 00:35:34.565
 So I went and read a ton of
 
 00:35:34.585 --> 00:35:36.547
 books about this and wrote a talk.
 
 00:35:36.586 --> 00:35:38.568
 And then that talk eventually became the
 
 00:35:38.628 --> 00:35:40.969
 seed for the chapter called Disunited
 
 00:35:41.028 --> 00:35:41.409
 Kingdom,
 
 00:35:41.449 --> 00:35:43.210
 who the title of the chapter tells you
 
 00:35:43.250 --> 00:35:44.911
 everything about how the war was received
 
 00:35:44.931 --> 00:35:45.771
 in Britain right there.
 
 00:35:46.726 --> 00:35:49.028
 Again, the perception we often have,
 
 00:35:49.469 --> 00:35:50.690
 David versus Goliath,
 
 00:35:50.710 --> 00:35:52.731
 everyone on this side of the Atlantic were
 
 00:35:52.751 --> 00:35:53.572
 the patriots.
 
 00:35:53.592 --> 00:35:55.373
 And then in England and Britain,
 
 00:35:55.393 --> 00:35:57.454
 they were united against these upstarts
 
 00:35:57.514 --> 00:35:59.056
 when you show there's really a tremendous
 
 00:35:59.157 --> 00:36:01.237
 disagreement in England and Britain as a
 
 00:36:01.297 --> 00:36:02.998
 whole about the war.
 
 00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:05.960
 Huge vocal disagreement, right?
 
 00:36:06.181 --> 00:36:08.503
 The British are as disunited over this as
 
 00:36:08.543 --> 00:36:10.443
 the Americans are, actually.
 
 00:36:10.983 --> 00:36:13.365
 And thanks to the scholarship of James
 
 00:36:13.425 --> 00:36:13.965
 Bradley,
 
 00:36:14.686 --> 00:36:16.327
 we know that there's a real vibrant
 
 00:36:16.467 --> 00:36:18.528
 anti-war movement in Britain.
 
 00:36:18.568 --> 00:36:20.809
 There are peace petitioners sending in
 
 00:36:20.889 --> 00:36:23.210
 tens of thousands of signatures saying,
 
 00:36:23.411 --> 00:36:27.273
 end this now, not in our name.
 
 00:36:27.333 --> 00:36:28.373
 Who do you think you are?
 
 00:36:28.494 --> 00:36:29.635
 Blood and treasure, right?
 
 00:36:29.735 --> 00:36:29.835
 Right.
 
 00:36:30.255 --> 00:36:31.976
 And that gets stomped on when France
 
 00:36:32.036 --> 00:36:33.496
 enters the war and suddenly you can't
 
 00:36:33.516 --> 00:36:34.635
 criticize the government anymore.
 
 00:36:34.655 --> 00:36:35.516
 Right.
 
 00:36:35.916 --> 00:36:37.277
 And even some of the British military
 
 00:36:37.317 --> 00:36:38.817
 figures who said they wouldn't be involved
 
 00:36:38.836 --> 00:36:40.637
 in American war, like Admiral Keppel.
 
 00:36:40.677 --> 00:36:42.657
 Now he's defending the home islands
 
 00:36:42.697 --> 00:36:44.018
 against the French invasion.
 
 00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.119
 Yeah.
 
 00:36:46.179 --> 00:36:47.559
 Well, we could go on all day, Rick.
 
 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:49.480
 This has been it's a great book and
 
 00:36:49.539 --> 00:36:51.081
 I want people to read it rather than
 
 00:36:51.121 --> 00:36:52.800
 just listen to us to you talk about
 
 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:52.900
 it.
 
 00:36:53.836 --> 00:36:55.018
 And again, just to give it away,
 
 00:36:55.278 --> 00:36:56.920
 Baron von Steuben appears in it,
 
 00:36:56.981 --> 00:36:58.083
 and so does Peggy Shippen.
 
 00:36:58.603 --> 00:36:59.885
 Yes.
 
 00:37:01.108 --> 00:37:02.710
 And of course, the chapter on India.
 
 00:37:02.730 --> 00:37:05.052
 We didn't even talk about those tremendous
 
 00:37:05.092 --> 00:37:06.876
 facets of the book and the story.
 
 00:37:07.884 --> 00:37:09.827
 really should change the way we think
 
 00:37:09.847 --> 00:37:12.750
 about this whole episode in a much more
 
 00:37:12.809 --> 00:37:14.032
 interesting and exciting way.
 
 00:37:14.512 --> 00:37:16.014
 And Bob, I know your readers and viewers,
 
 00:37:16.155 --> 00:37:17.295
 listeners and viewers are very smart,
 
 00:37:17.315 --> 00:37:18.918
 but if you don't know who Peggy Shippen
 
 00:37:19.077 --> 00:37:19.298
 is,
 
 00:37:19.438 --> 00:37:21.201
 Google her and find out who her husband
 
 00:37:21.260 --> 00:37:21.541
 was,
 
 00:37:21.561 --> 00:37:23.143
 and then why I wrote a chapter about
 
 00:37:23.184 --> 00:37:24.606
 her will start to make sudden sense.
 
 00:37:25.085 --> 00:37:26.945
 right yes yes very good so thank you
 
 00:37:26.985 --> 00:37:28.806
 so much for joining us it's uh my
 
 00:37:28.847 --> 00:37:31.327
 pleasure thank you thank you and and every
 
 00:37:31.367 --> 00:37:33.307
 week we thank folks in and around who
 
 00:37:33.367 --> 00:37:35.547
 are listening in and this week and we
 
 00:37:35.588 --> 00:37:37.307
 acknowledge people who are regular
 
 00:37:37.347 --> 00:37:40.248
 listeners and um if you are in one
 
 00:37:40.268 --> 00:37:41.728
 of these places and want some revolution
 
 00:37:41.748 --> 00:37:44.090
 two fifty swag send jonathan lane an email
 
 00:37:44.130 --> 00:37:46.090
 jay lane at revolution two five oh dot
 
 00:37:46.190 --> 00:37:49.590
 org and this week in deference to our
 
 00:37:49.771 --> 00:37:51.070
 guest and the topic
 
 00:37:51.442 --> 00:37:53.244
 I'm going to thank folks who are mainly
 
 00:37:53.364 --> 00:37:56.226
 not in the original Thirteen Colonies.
 
 00:37:56.246 --> 00:37:58.429
 So I want to thank our listeners in
 
 00:37:58.469 --> 00:38:00.190
 Frankfurt on Main, in Hesse,
 
 00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:03.534
 and in Seguin, Texas, and Lafayette,
 
 00:38:03.554 --> 00:38:05.175
 Louisiana, Lafayette, Indiana,
 
 00:38:05.456 --> 00:38:08.119
 Johannesburg, and in Nantes, Massey,
 
 00:38:08.179 --> 00:38:10.581
 Paris, and Bordeaux, in York,
 
 00:38:10.802 --> 00:38:12.963
 Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Westminster,
 
 00:38:13.083 --> 00:38:13.605
 and London,
 
 00:38:13.965 --> 00:38:16.847
 madrid marbella and barcelona in
 
 00:38:16.927 --> 00:38:20.048
 krapnitsky in the ukraine in tel aviv and
 
 00:38:20.148 --> 00:38:23.510
 amman in almaty kazakhstan in pego pego
 
 00:38:23.831 --> 00:38:27.853
 kawasaki in japan bebedoro in brazil and
 
 00:38:27.934 --> 00:38:30.014
 roros norway thank you all for joining us
 
 00:38:30.074 --> 00:38:32.516
 and everyone between and beyond and now we
 
 00:38:32.556 --> 00:38:34.257
 will be piped out on the road to
 
 00:38:34.277 --> 00:38:34.677
 boston