"When the Declaration of Independence was News" with Emily Sneff

Emily Sneff, author of When the Declaration of Independence Was News explores how the Declaration spread across the colonies and the wider world—not as a sacred founding text, but as breaking news.  Her book traces how printers, sailors, and town criers turned Congress’s resolution into headlines that shaped the very idea of independence.   Historian of the Declaration of Independence, Emily Sneff is of the curators of the new exhibit, "Declaration's Journey, at the Museum of the American Revolution in Philadelphia, and writes the newsletter Declaration Stories sharing her research on the Declaration of Independence, its  global echoes in newspapers and pamphlets,  how revolutionary ideas went viral in the 18th century—and how that moment still defines what it means to announce freedom today.

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:00.009 --> 00:00:00.709
 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the revolution to fifty
 
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 podcast.
 
 00:00:03.509 --> 00:00:04.250
 I'm Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:04.330 --> 00:00:06.270
 I chair the road to fifty advisory group.
 
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 We are a consortium of about seventy five
 
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 groups in Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of the beginnings of
 
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 American independence.
 
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 And our guest today is Emily Smith.
 
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 Emily is a historian of the of the
 
 00:00:18.914 --> 00:00:21.175
 Declaration of Independence and her book.
 
 00:00:21.635 --> 00:00:23.936
 When the Declaration of Independence was
 
 00:00:23.995 --> 00:00:26.056
 news is coming out next April.
 
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 And he's also working on an exhibit
 
 00:00:28.498 --> 00:00:29.038
 opening this
 
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 the Declaration's journey.
 
 00:00:33.750 --> 00:00:37.173
 And so you are the person most focused
 
 00:00:37.192 --> 00:00:38.173
 on the Declaration.
 
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 And I just,
 
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 it's a great topic and it's great.
 
 00:00:42.595 --> 00:00:44.417
 So what is important to you about the
 
 00:00:44.457 --> 00:00:45.698
 Declaration of Independence?
 
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 What captivated you about this document?
 
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 Oh, that's a big question.
 
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 So I started working on the Declaration
 
 00:00:54.594 --> 00:00:58.276
 over a decade ago through museum work and
 
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 then transitioning into the civic
 
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 education space,
 
 00:01:01.996 --> 00:01:05.138
 thinking about what resources people
 
 00:01:05.197 --> 00:01:07.638
 needed to best engage with the
 
 00:01:07.658 --> 00:01:08.397
 Declaration.
 
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 And then when I went to grad school,
 
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 I spent maybe a minute thinking about
 
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 other topics and went back to the
 
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 Declaration.
 
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 What I like to do is, you know,
 
 00:01:20.001 --> 00:01:21.242
 by talking to the public,
 
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 by engaging with different copies,
 
 00:01:23.683 --> 00:01:25.605
 by kind of surfacing stories that are
 
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 maybe lesser known,
 
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 is show just how much the founding
 
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 document of the United States has to tell
 
 00:01:33.250 --> 00:01:33.489
 us,
 
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 that it's not just about the parchment
 
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 that was signed that's in the National
 
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 Archives,
 
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 but that there's all of these other pieces
 
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 to the story.
 
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 And so there's no shortage of things that
 
 00:01:45.215 --> 00:01:46.596
 interest me about the Declaration,
 
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 and that's why I can...
 
 00:01:47.938 --> 00:01:50.560
 call myself the Declaration Lady and keep
 
 00:01:50.579 --> 00:01:51.441
 this research going,
 
 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:52.542
 at least for the next year.
 
 00:01:53.942 --> 00:01:56.165
 Because there are a lot of printings of
 
 00:01:56.204 --> 00:01:56.364
 it.
 
 00:01:56.465 --> 00:01:56.945
 And in fact,
 
 00:01:56.986 --> 00:01:58.626
 it's one of the surprising things that the
 
 00:01:59.128 --> 00:02:01.530
 printed version predates the parchment
 
 00:02:01.549 --> 00:02:01.890
 version.
 
 00:02:03.037 --> 00:02:03.578
 Absolutely.
 
 00:02:03.638 --> 00:02:04.379
 Yeah.
 
 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:06.784
 The process of declaring independence is
 
 00:02:06.823 --> 00:02:07.944
 really interesting to me.
 
 00:02:08.025 --> 00:02:11.449
 So there is this primacy of print that,
 
 00:02:11.550 --> 00:02:13.173
 you know, on the night of July fourth,
 
 00:02:14.093 --> 00:02:15.635
 the first printed copies of the
 
 00:02:15.656 --> 00:02:17.519
 Declaration are being produced, you know,
 
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 just around the corner from Independence
 
 00:02:18.980 --> 00:02:19.162
 Hall.
 
 00:02:19.842 --> 00:02:21.383
 And it's not until a few weeks later
 
 00:02:21.862 --> 00:02:24.043
 that the delegates decide to create a
 
 00:02:24.103 --> 00:02:27.584
 parchment copy written out in a fine hand
 
 00:02:28.024 --> 00:02:28.824
 to be signed.
 
 00:02:28.884 --> 00:02:31.585
 And so the signing is different from the
 
 00:02:31.625 --> 00:02:32.265
 declaring.
 
 00:02:33.586 --> 00:02:34.765
 And over time,
 
 00:02:34.866 --> 00:02:37.046
 that signed copy and the signers as a
 
 00:02:37.086 --> 00:02:38.026
 group, you know,
 
 00:02:38.067 --> 00:02:39.147
 a group of men who were never in
 
 00:02:39.187 --> 00:02:40.527
 the same room at the same time.
 
 00:02:41.108 --> 00:02:42.870
 became the predominant story.
 
 00:02:42.949 --> 00:02:44.550
 But actually the first printings,
 
 00:02:44.631 --> 00:02:44.890
 you know,
 
 00:02:44.911 --> 00:02:47.212
 from John Dunlap all the way through the
 
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 summer and fall,
 
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 those are the copies that really interest
 
 00:02:50.216 --> 00:02:51.917
 me.
 
 00:02:51.956 --> 00:02:53.318
 So what happens to these copies?
 
 00:02:53.337 --> 00:02:54.900
 They're printed beginning on the night of
 
 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:55.639
 July fourth.
 
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 And then how do we know how many
 
 00:02:57.741 --> 00:02:58.483
 and then where they go?
 
 00:02:59.758 --> 00:03:02.579
 Yeah, John Dunlap's, Broadsides, you know,
 
 00:03:02.598 --> 00:03:05.219
 there's only two dozen that survive now,
 
 00:03:05.259 --> 00:03:07.439
 and they are highly, highly valued,
 
 00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:09.080
 you know, multimillion dollar copies.
 
 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:12.822
 And mostly the focus is just on the
 
 00:03:12.861 --> 00:03:13.681
 copies themselves,
 
 00:03:13.741 --> 00:03:15.143
 not on the stories behind them.
 
 00:03:15.223 --> 00:03:15.362
 So
 
 00:03:15.782 --> 00:03:17.364
 We kind of forget that they were printed
 
 00:03:17.403 --> 00:03:18.104
 in Philadelphia,
 
 00:03:18.123 --> 00:03:19.564
 but they were sent all over the place.
 
 00:03:20.104 --> 00:03:22.186
 And probably a few hundred copies were
 
 00:03:22.225 --> 00:03:25.206
 created to fulfill the needs of Congress
 
 00:03:25.247 --> 00:03:27.228
 to send the declaration out to each of
 
 00:03:27.247 --> 00:03:29.829
 the states, to the Continental Army.
 
 00:03:30.329 --> 00:03:32.449
 And then they tried at least to send
 
 00:03:32.610 --> 00:03:34.191
 a copy to Silas Dean,
 
 00:03:34.790 --> 00:03:35.931
 their agent in France.
 
 00:03:36.671 --> 00:03:38.632
 that copy was thrown overboard to prevent
 
 00:03:38.671 --> 00:03:39.353
 interception.
 
 00:03:40.612 --> 00:03:42.252
 So there's all these Dunlap broadsides
 
 00:03:42.272 --> 00:03:43.712
 going out all over the place.
 
 00:03:44.933 --> 00:03:46.913
 And then other printers are copying from
 
 00:03:46.973 --> 00:03:49.213
 him or copying from other newspaper
 
 00:03:49.253 --> 00:03:49.834
 printings.
 
 00:03:50.794 --> 00:03:53.675
 Every active newspaper in the US had the
 
 00:03:53.694 --> 00:03:56.936
 declaration in its pages between July and
 
 00:03:57.015 --> 00:03:58.256
 August, seventy six.
 
 00:03:59.436 --> 00:04:00.795
 So there's tons of printings.
 
 00:04:00.836 --> 00:04:02.176
 And that means there's a lot of people
 
 00:04:02.217 --> 00:04:03.417
 involved in that process.
 
 00:04:05.384 --> 00:04:06.907
 One of the things Jonathan discovered
 
 00:04:06.926 --> 00:04:08.969
 going through the records of town meetings
 
 00:04:09.009 --> 00:04:11.353
 in Massachusetts is every town meeting in
 
 00:04:11.372 --> 00:04:11.954
 their minute book,
 
 00:04:12.033 --> 00:04:13.716
 they write out the Declaration of
 
 00:04:13.776 --> 00:04:14.356
 Independence.
 
 00:04:15.122 --> 00:04:15.302
 Yeah,
 
 00:04:15.323 --> 00:04:16.963
 that was a specific thing for
 
 00:04:17.144 --> 00:04:17.845
 Massachusetts,
 
 00:04:17.884 --> 00:04:20.646
 that their order to disseminate the
 
 00:04:20.665 --> 00:04:21.387
 Declaration,
 
 00:04:22.127 --> 00:04:24.309
 they had Ezekiel Russell print broadsides,
 
 00:04:24.428 --> 00:04:27.630
 and then those were sent out to actually
 
 00:04:27.670 --> 00:04:30.052
 to ministers who were supposed to read the
 
 00:04:30.072 --> 00:04:32.874
 Declaration to their congregations.
 
 00:04:33.274 --> 00:04:35.435
 Some of those ministers refused to do so,
 
 00:04:36.096 --> 00:04:37.596
 which is an interesting chapter of my
 
 00:04:37.637 --> 00:04:37.836
 book.
 
 00:04:39.137 --> 00:04:40.519
 But a lot of them did.
 
 00:04:40.678 --> 00:04:42.339
 And then they were supposed to hand the
 
 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:44.862
 declaration off to the town clerk who
 
 00:04:44.901 --> 00:04:47.504
 would record it in the town records,
 
 00:04:47.644 --> 00:04:50.165
 either by inserting the broadside
 
 00:04:50.225 --> 00:04:52.247
 physically in the town records or
 
 00:04:52.288 --> 00:04:53.228
 transcribing it.
 
 00:04:53.449 --> 00:04:55.911
 And I'm sure Jonathan can attest to this,
 
 00:04:55.951 --> 00:04:56.190
 too.
 
 00:04:56.670 --> 00:04:58.913
 Some of the clerk's transcriptions are
 
 00:04:58.952 --> 00:05:00.954
 just the messiest things you could ever
 
 00:05:00.994 --> 00:05:01.714
 find anywhere.
 
 00:05:01.915 --> 00:05:04.216
 You know, bad spelling, you know,
 
 00:05:04.235 --> 00:05:06.276
 writing out the declaration too big and
 
 00:05:06.295 --> 00:05:07.716
 then having to, you know,
 
 00:05:07.757 --> 00:05:08.896
 go on to the next line.
 
 00:05:09.456 --> 00:05:11.637
 So it's a really interesting kind of look
 
 00:05:11.778 --> 00:05:12.317
 at, you know,
 
 00:05:12.398 --> 00:05:14.838
 how focused were they on preserving this
 
 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:16.980
 text the way that Congress intended it?
 
 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:17.199
 Yeah.
 
 00:05:17.220 --> 00:05:20.661
 And then one of the interesting things I
 
 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:22.261
 find is they have in big letters,
 
 00:05:22.341 --> 00:05:23.601
 United States of America,
 
 00:05:23.622 --> 00:05:24.762
 as well as July fourth.
 
 00:05:24.922 --> 00:05:27.002
 So we have the country's name and birth
 
 00:05:27.062 --> 00:05:28.242
 date on the document.
 
 00:05:28.262 --> 00:05:30.024
 Was that planned by Congress or was that
 
 00:05:30.043 --> 00:05:30.843
 something Dunlap did?
 
 00:05:32.045 --> 00:05:35.247
 That title kind of after in Congress,
 
 00:05:35.267 --> 00:05:36.769
 July four, seventeen seventy six,
 
 00:05:37.069 --> 00:05:37.569
 the title,
 
 00:05:37.850 --> 00:05:40.853
 a declaration by the representatives that
 
 00:05:40.952 --> 00:05:43.254
 originated with the first rough draft from
 
 00:05:43.415 --> 00:05:44.975
 Thomas Jefferson and kind of stuck with
 
 00:05:45.016 --> 00:05:45.516
 the text.
 
 00:05:46.117 --> 00:05:48.338
 And then John Dunlap put in Congress,
 
 00:05:48.358 --> 00:05:48.920
 July four,
 
 00:05:48.939 --> 00:05:50.560
 seventeen seventy six at the top,
 
 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:52.242
 the way that he would for any other
 
 00:05:52.423 --> 00:05:54.285
 resolution of the Continental Congress.
 
 00:05:54.985 --> 00:05:56.386
 So as it circulated,
 
 00:05:56.766 --> 00:05:58.468
 it reinforced the fact that that was the
 
 00:05:58.507 --> 00:05:58.848
 day,
 
 00:05:59.127 --> 00:06:01.649
 even though July second was the day that
 
 00:06:01.689 --> 00:06:03.771
 Congress actually voted to declare
 
 00:06:03.810 --> 00:06:04.492
 independence.
 
 00:06:05.232 --> 00:06:06.432
 So by the following year,
 
 00:06:06.632 --> 00:06:08.634
 July fourth is Independence Day.
 
 00:06:08.675 --> 00:06:10.415
 That's the date that's associated with the
 
 00:06:10.435 --> 00:06:11.576
 declaration permanently.
 
 00:06:11.596 --> 00:06:13.898
 Rather than July second,
 
 00:06:13.918 --> 00:06:16.100
 which is what John Adams had wanted.
 
 00:06:17.596 --> 00:06:18.877
 Or at least that he thought that that,
 
 00:06:19.197 --> 00:06:19.619
 you know,
 
 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:21.620
 there's a few moments in the summer of
 
 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:25.062
 seventy six that John Adams says are the
 
 00:06:25.103 --> 00:06:26.884
 most decisive days in history.
 
 00:06:26.923 --> 00:06:29.064
 And he's very proud that we finally got
 
 00:06:29.125 --> 00:06:29.805
 to this point.
 
 00:06:30.446 --> 00:06:32.687
 And July second is certainly one of those.
 
 00:06:33.608 --> 00:06:36.069
 But I think that the text itself,
 
 00:06:36.089 --> 00:06:36.430
 you know,
 
 00:06:36.471 --> 00:06:38.812
 the the words of Congress explaining their
 
 00:06:38.851 --> 00:06:39.372
 decision,
 
 00:06:40.213 --> 00:06:41.855
 that ends up being sort of the key
 
 00:06:41.875 --> 00:06:42.714
 part of the story.
 
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 Right.
 
 00:06:43.336 --> 00:06:43.576
 Right.
 
 00:06:43.636 --> 00:06:45.036
 And then on the.
 
 00:06:48.595 --> 00:06:51.475
 of America as in the big letters.
 
 00:06:51.516 --> 00:06:52.036
 Yeah,
 
 00:06:52.055 --> 00:06:53.315
 and I try to use as much as
 
 00:06:53.375 --> 00:06:56.237
 possible the plural United States rather
 
 00:06:56.257 --> 00:06:56.976
 than the singular,
 
 00:06:57.016 --> 00:06:59.257
 because that's much more a reflection of
 
 00:07:00.137 --> 00:07:02.737
 how the Continental Congress thought about
 
 00:07:04.059 --> 00:07:06.259
 the colonies turned states at that time.
 
 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.120
 And we tend to forget that the declaration
 
 00:07:09.620 --> 00:07:11.720
 was yoked with the Articles of
 
 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:13.761
 Confederation and the Model Treaty,
 
 00:07:14.221 --> 00:07:16.100
 but those three documents were completed
 
 00:07:16.161 --> 00:07:17.841
 and ratified at different moments.
 
 00:07:18.442 --> 00:07:20.502
 So at the time that independence was
 
 00:07:20.543 --> 00:07:20.983
 declared,
 
 00:07:21.024 --> 00:07:23.425
 there was no formal confederation.
 
 00:07:24.545 --> 00:07:26.607
 And when you see how the Declaration was
 
 00:07:26.666 --> 00:07:28.007
 printed in Europe,
 
 00:07:28.067 --> 00:07:31.230
 how it was copied in London newspapers and
 
 00:07:31.250 --> 00:07:33.130
 then translated in European papers,
 
 00:07:33.550 --> 00:07:34.891
 they are using the plural.
 
 00:07:35.672 --> 00:07:37.752
 Either states are in many cases still
 
 00:07:37.853 --> 00:07:40.714
 referring to them as colonies to talk
 
 00:07:40.735 --> 00:07:41.615
 about the Declaration.
 
 00:07:42.475 --> 00:07:42.935
 Interesting.
 
 00:07:43.255 --> 00:07:44.656
 We're talking with Emily Sneff,
 
 00:07:44.677 --> 00:07:46.177
 historian of the Declaration of
 
 00:07:46.237 --> 00:07:47.519
 Independence, and her book,
 
 00:07:47.559 --> 00:07:49.180
 When the Declaration Was News,
 
 00:07:49.201 --> 00:07:51.562
 will be coming out next year in the
 
 00:07:51.622 --> 00:07:53.144
 great year of twenty twenty six.
 
 00:07:53.845 --> 00:07:57.427
 And you conclude the book with Mary
 
 00:07:57.468 --> 00:07:59.750
 Catherine Goddard's printing in Baltimore
 
 00:07:59.790 --> 00:08:01.791
 in January of seventeen seventy seven.
 
 00:08:01.812 --> 00:08:04.353
 So why do we have a copy then?
 
 00:08:04.394 --> 00:08:06.175
 This is a copy actually the Congress
 
 00:08:06.516 --> 00:08:07.096
 commissions.
 
 00:08:07.954 --> 00:08:08.615
 It is, yeah.
 
 00:08:08.795 --> 00:08:10.415
 For the book, I wanted to,
 
 00:08:11.096 --> 00:08:12.336
 it's almost like a micro history.
 
 00:08:12.377 --> 00:08:14.237
 It's really zooming in on a particular
 
 00:08:14.516 --> 00:08:16.997
 moment in time before anyone knows what
 
 00:08:17.017 --> 00:08:18.838
 the legacy of the Declaration would be.
 
 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:21.399
 And so I wanted to conclude with Goddard's
 
 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:23.180
 printing because I see that as the
 
 00:08:23.221 --> 00:08:25.502
 transition from the time when the
 
 00:08:25.541 --> 00:08:27.923
 Declaration of Independence was news to
 
 00:08:27.942 --> 00:08:29.923
 the time when it becomes more like
 
 00:08:30.023 --> 00:08:31.004
 archival treasure.
 
 00:08:31.403 --> 00:08:33.325
 Because the Congress commissioned the
 
 00:08:33.365 --> 00:08:34.284
 Goddard broadsides
 
 00:08:34.745 --> 00:08:36.866
 to send a copy to each state to
 
 00:08:36.927 --> 00:08:38.628
 form the foundation of their state
 
 00:08:38.668 --> 00:08:40.009
 archives.
 
 00:08:40.048 --> 00:08:42.010
 That's a very different thing than trying
 
 00:08:42.051 --> 00:08:45.092
 to print broadsides or publicize the news
 
 00:08:45.134 --> 00:08:45.974
 of independence.
 
 00:08:46.835 --> 00:08:49.256
 I love Goddard's printings because she
 
 00:08:49.277 --> 00:08:51.979
 made a lot of design choices within her
 
 00:08:52.019 --> 00:08:54.000
 broadside that are completely different
 
 00:08:54.061 --> 00:08:57.263
 than the design choices she made in July,
 
 00:08:57.302 --> 00:08:58.924
 when she prints the declaration in her
 
 00:08:58.965 --> 00:08:59.544
 newspaper.
 
 00:09:00.505 --> 00:09:01.267
 One of them, of course,
 
 00:09:01.307 --> 00:09:03.607
 is printing her full name on the broadside
 
 00:09:03.648 --> 00:09:03.969
 whereas
 
 00:09:04.408 --> 00:09:05.789
 She printed her name,
 
 00:09:06.551 --> 00:09:08.591
 her newspaper under her initials, M.K.
 
 00:09:08.631 --> 00:09:09.091
 Goddard.
 
 00:09:09.832 --> 00:09:11.573
 So it's a really interesting printing.
 
 00:09:11.614 --> 00:09:13.655
 It's the first to include almost all of
 
 00:09:13.696 --> 00:09:14.316
 the signers.
 
 00:09:14.355 --> 00:09:16.398
 Thomas McKean hadn't signed the parchment
 
 00:09:16.738 --> 00:09:17.418
 by that point.
 
 00:09:17.999 --> 00:09:19.519
 And that comes back to haunt him later
 
 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:21.681
 in his political career when people are
 
 00:09:21.721 --> 00:09:23.903
 relying on Goddard's printing and other
 
 00:09:23.962 --> 00:09:25.183
 early printings and saying,
 
 00:09:25.203 --> 00:09:26.224
 your name isn't on there.
 
 00:09:27.184 --> 00:09:27.785
 But of course,
 
 00:09:27.826 --> 00:09:29.886
 she was the first woman printer of the
 
 00:09:29.907 --> 00:09:30.707
 Declaration and
 
 00:09:31.528 --> 00:09:32.428
 as of the, you know,
 
 00:09:32.529 --> 00:09:34.873
 July newspaper printing and certainly her
 
 00:09:34.913 --> 00:09:36.313
 January broadside printing.
 
 00:09:38.157 --> 00:09:40.460
 And there was a copy in the Massachusetts
 
 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:42.042
 State Archives with John Hancock's
 
 00:09:42.081 --> 00:09:43.482
 signature because he sent it out as a
 
 00:09:43.543 --> 00:09:45.285
 true copy to all of the states.
 
 00:09:46.047 --> 00:09:46.488
 Exactly.
 
 00:09:46.567 --> 00:09:47.087
 Yeah.
 
 00:09:47.128 --> 00:09:49.191
 Hancock and Thompson, Charles Thompson,
 
 00:09:49.211 --> 00:09:49.912
 the secretary,
 
 00:09:50.611 --> 00:09:52.634
 signed the Goddard broadsides as true
 
 00:09:52.674 --> 00:09:53.174
 copies.
 
 00:09:53.195 --> 00:09:55.798
 And some of them remain in the state
 
 00:09:55.837 --> 00:09:56.359
 archives.
 
 00:09:56.479 --> 00:09:57.681
 One is in private hands.
 
 00:09:58.481 --> 00:10:00.644
 The one at the Rhode Island State Archives
 
 00:10:00.683 --> 00:10:01.926
 was recently conserved.
 
 00:10:01.966 --> 00:10:03.727
 It had broken into like three or four
 
 00:10:03.768 --> 00:10:04.288
 pieces.
 
 00:10:05.470 --> 00:10:07.610
 But still at the bottom, for some reason,
 
 00:10:07.691 --> 00:10:09.153
 Mary Cawthorne Goddard's name,
 
 00:10:09.533 --> 00:10:11.394
 there's a big black line through it.
 
 00:10:11.735 --> 00:10:13.216
 And that's something that, you know,
 
 00:10:13.235 --> 00:10:14.738
 the conservators can't fix.
 
 00:10:15.177 --> 00:10:16.980
 And they don't know when in its history
 
 00:10:17.019 --> 00:10:18.461
 someone crossed out her name.
 
 00:10:18.541 --> 00:10:20.503
 But it's a fascinating, you know,
 
 00:10:20.543 --> 00:10:22.565
 she got her printing career started in
 
 00:10:22.605 --> 00:10:23.225
 Rhode Island.
 
 00:10:23.264 --> 00:10:24.645
 And yet the copy that's in the Rhode
 
 00:10:24.706 --> 00:10:27.509
 Island archives is trying to kind of erase
 
 00:10:27.908 --> 00:10:29.129
 her name from her product.
 
 00:10:29.169 --> 00:10:30.851
 Rhode Island printer who is jealous or
 
 00:10:33.547 --> 00:10:33.846
 It's great.
 
 00:10:33.907 --> 00:10:35.267
 Not only does it have all of the
 
 00:10:35.326 --> 00:10:36.927
 signers except for Thomas McCain,
 
 00:10:36.967 --> 00:10:38.469
 it also has a woman's name at the
 
 00:10:38.489 --> 00:10:39.249
 bottom, too.
 
 00:10:39.470 --> 00:10:39.909
 Exactly.
 
 00:10:39.929 --> 00:10:41.971
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:41.990 --> 00:10:44.251
 So you mentioned when the Declaration is
 
 00:10:44.312 --> 00:10:44.792
 news, I mean,
 
 00:10:44.812 --> 00:10:45.893
 that's the title of your book,
 
 00:10:45.913 --> 00:10:48.053
 and then it becomes an archival document.
 
 00:10:48.094 --> 00:10:50.754
 So what's the reception like when this
 
 00:10:50.794 --> 00:10:53.037
 document is sent out to these various
 
 00:10:53.076 --> 00:10:53.537
 places?
 
 00:10:54.188 --> 00:10:56.291
 That's a great question because I think we
 
 00:10:56.331 --> 00:10:58.131
 assume, two hundred and fifty years on,
 
 00:10:58.552 --> 00:11:01.033
 that the reception was mostly positive.
 
 00:11:02.254 --> 00:11:03.576
 And it was in many cases.
 
 00:11:03.596 --> 00:11:03.876
 You know,
 
 00:11:03.917 --> 00:11:06.778
 you have these public readings all across
 
 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:09.701
 the United States that all have similar
 
 00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:10.341
 elements.
 
 00:11:10.581 --> 00:11:13.244
 You know, people shouting huzzah,
 
 00:11:14.304 --> 00:11:15.284
 cannons firing,
 
 00:11:15.345 --> 00:11:18.327
 all these different kind of ritualistic
 
 00:11:18.368 --> 00:11:19.749
 things that take place.
 
 00:11:20.089 --> 00:11:21.908
 the destruction of the Royal Code of Arms.
 
 00:11:21.989 --> 00:11:23.690
 This is happening all over the place.
 
 00:11:24.870 --> 00:11:28.110
 But there's also people who are not happy
 
 00:11:28.150 --> 00:11:29.071
 with the Declaration,
 
 00:11:29.571 --> 00:11:31.471
 who see it as a very clear turning
 
 00:11:31.511 --> 00:11:31.871
 point.
 
 00:11:32.292 --> 00:11:35.673
 And some of those people are involved in
 
 00:11:35.712 --> 00:11:37.493
 the process of declaring independence.
 
 00:11:37.513 --> 00:11:38.153
 Like I mentioned,
 
 00:11:38.212 --> 00:11:40.374
 the mostly Anglican ministers in
 
 00:11:40.394 --> 00:11:43.215
 Massachusetts who did not want to proclaim
 
 00:11:43.235 --> 00:11:44.914
 the Declaration to their congregation.
 
 00:11:46.134 --> 00:11:48.015
 One of my favorite stories is about
 
 00:11:49.155 --> 00:11:51.698
 a teenager on the island of Nantucket
 
 00:11:51.918 --> 00:11:53.159
 named Kizia Coffin.
 
 00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:55.562
 And someone brings a copy of the
 
 00:11:55.581 --> 00:11:57.224
 Declaration from Cape Cod over to
 
 00:11:57.264 --> 00:11:58.845
 Nantucket, and she reads it.
 
 00:11:59.785 --> 00:12:02.207
 And she says that she wishes the members
 
 00:12:02.248 --> 00:12:04.029
 of the Continental Congress had been hung
 
 00:12:04.070 --> 00:12:05.772
 fifty feet in the air before they would
 
 00:12:05.792 --> 00:12:07.092
 have been allowed to issue this
 
 00:12:07.133 --> 00:12:07.833
 Declaration.
 
 00:12:08.514 --> 00:12:09.936
 And I love that story because this is
 
 00:12:10.316 --> 00:12:11.157
 a teenage girl
 
 00:12:11.697 --> 00:12:14.198
 who clearly has a very strong political
 
 00:12:14.239 --> 00:12:17.461
 awareness and is also in the minority in
 
 00:12:17.500 --> 00:12:18.282
 Massachusetts, right?
 
 00:12:18.501 --> 00:12:20.823
 We tend to think about the loyalists all
 
 00:12:20.864 --> 00:12:23.345
 leaving Massachusetts with the British,
 
 00:12:23.404 --> 00:12:26.006
 but there still were these enclaves where
 
 00:12:26.027 --> 00:12:28.249
 the Declaration was not wanted and not
 
 00:12:28.288 --> 00:12:28.889
 received well.
 
 00:12:30.990 --> 00:12:32.110
 Speaking of stories, I mean,
 
 00:12:32.150 --> 00:12:34.212
 you also have this site,
 
 00:12:34.592 --> 00:12:35.714
 Declaration Stories,
 
 00:12:35.734 --> 00:12:37.394
 where you do share a lot of these.
 
 00:12:42.412 --> 00:12:45.953
 new story that you have found.
 
 00:12:45.974 --> 00:12:46.854
 So what have been some of your favorites
 
 00:12:46.874 --> 00:12:48.434
 along with Kezia Coffin's?
 
 00:12:48.455 --> 00:12:48.615
 Yeah.
 
 00:12:48.855 --> 00:12:51.057
 So as everyone who's written a book knows,
 
 00:12:51.596 --> 00:12:53.717
 there's too much to fit in the book.
 
 00:12:54.678 --> 00:12:56.038
 And my book was my dissertation.
 
 00:12:56.078 --> 00:12:58.160
 So I even had a lot of stuff
 
 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:00.601
 from years of research in grad school that
 
 00:13:00.682 --> 00:13:01.702
 I just couldn't fit in.
 
 00:13:02.863 --> 00:13:04.884
 So I wanted to make sure those stories
 
 00:13:04.923 --> 00:13:05.764
 saw the light of day.
 
 00:13:06.585 --> 00:13:09.508
 and figured that a newsletter format would
 
 00:13:09.548 --> 00:13:11.188
 be a great way of just showing people
 
 00:13:12.230 --> 00:13:15.011
 all of the different pieces of history
 
 00:13:15.172 --> 00:13:17.854
 that are represented by this text that we
 
 00:13:17.894 --> 00:13:19.174
 think of as the Declaration of
 
 00:13:19.195 --> 00:13:19.796
 Independence.
 
 00:13:20.956 --> 00:13:23.097
 So I've included a lot of different
 
 00:13:24.099 --> 00:13:25.740
 you know, printed copies so far.
 
 00:13:25.779 --> 00:13:28.121
 This newsletter will run through July,
 
 00:13:28.143 --> 00:13:28.903
 twenty twenty six.
 
 00:13:28.923 --> 00:13:30.244
 So there's many more to come.
 
 00:13:31.284 --> 00:13:33.767
 I've been able to tie in to some
 
 00:13:33.907 --> 00:13:36.089
 of the stories that are in the book
 
 00:13:36.109 --> 00:13:37.490
 that are explored in more detail,
 
 00:13:37.529 --> 00:13:39.692
 but also ones that I didn't have space
 
 00:13:39.731 --> 00:13:41.453
 for, including in Europe.
 
 00:13:41.474 --> 00:13:43.635
 There's all sorts of translations
 
 00:13:44.817 --> 00:13:46.879
 The Declaration either excerpted or
 
 00:13:46.918 --> 00:13:49.100
 printed in full in newspapers in Europe,
 
 00:13:49.140 --> 00:13:51.283
 and I could only cover a small portion
 
 00:13:51.342 --> 00:13:51.803
 of those.
 
 00:13:51.964 --> 00:13:54.826
 So that's a really exciting way to
 
 00:13:55.648 --> 00:13:58.070
 introduce people to the Italian and the
 
 00:13:58.171 --> 00:14:00.472
 Polish and the German translations of the
 
 00:14:00.513 --> 00:14:02.975
 Declaration that they may not know existed
 
 00:14:03.076 --> 00:14:03.115
 in
 
 00:14:05.657 --> 00:14:07.198
 It's really amazing.
 
 00:14:07.298 --> 00:14:09.160
 And Jefferson and the committee are
 
 00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:11.462
 writing something that will draw support.
 
 00:14:11.482 --> 00:14:12.825
 They're not writing something that's going
 
 00:14:12.845 --> 00:14:14.346
 to be a path-breaking new idea.
 
 00:14:14.366 --> 00:14:16.929
 So what are some of the features of
 
 00:14:17.029 --> 00:14:17.870
 the deck?
 
 00:14:17.890 --> 00:14:19.873
 Let's just talk about the text itself and
 
 00:14:19.932 --> 00:14:22.375
 what it says and how it's structured.
 
 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:23.821
 Yeah,
 
 00:14:24.422 --> 00:14:26.263
 I tend to describe the declaration when
 
 00:14:26.302 --> 00:14:28.203
 I'm talking to the public or preparing
 
 00:14:28.244 --> 00:14:31.765
 folks for events in twenty twenty six as
 
 00:14:31.926 --> 00:14:33.006
 building an argument.
 
 00:14:33.206 --> 00:14:34.447
 So, of course,
 
 00:14:34.488 --> 00:14:36.489
 the opening sentences lay out these
 
 00:14:36.710 --> 00:14:37.850
 universal truths.
 
 00:14:39.291 --> 00:14:40.852
 that set the sort of philosophical
 
 00:14:40.913 --> 00:14:42.595
 foundation for the Declaration.
 
 00:14:42.716 --> 00:14:44.998
 And those sentences are what we are most
 
 00:14:45.018 --> 00:14:46.620
 familiar with years later,
 
 00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:48.602
 because they have been invoked by
 
 00:14:48.663 --> 00:14:50.806
 generations of not only Americans,
 
 00:14:50.846 --> 00:14:52.086
 but people around the world.
 
 00:14:52.447 --> 00:14:53.188
 You know, life, liberty,
 
 00:14:53.208 --> 00:14:54.309
 and the pursuit of happiness,
 
 00:14:54.370 --> 00:14:55.431
 all men are created equal.
 
 00:14:56.111 --> 00:14:58.573
 The part that's least familiar to folks is
 
 00:14:58.614 --> 00:15:00.296
 the longest part of the Declaration.
 
 00:15:00.316 --> 00:15:02.437
 That's the list of grievances against King
 
 00:15:02.457 --> 00:15:03.239
 George III.
 
 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.322
 And some of that language feels archaic.
 
 00:15:06.341 --> 00:15:08.443
 Some of the examples don't feel super
 
 00:15:08.524 --> 00:15:09.004
 relevant.
 
 00:15:09.664 --> 00:15:11.947
 But in every political moment in our
 
 00:15:11.986 --> 00:15:13.229
 history as a nation,
 
 00:15:13.589 --> 00:15:16.451
 people have found parallels within that
 
 00:15:16.491 --> 00:15:17.152
 list of grievances.
 
 00:15:17.352 --> 00:15:19.173
 So the language is still applicable.
 
 00:15:19.955 --> 00:15:22.057
 And then the final paragraph of the
 
 00:15:22.076 --> 00:15:25.740
 declaration to me is the most important in
 
 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:27.020
 seventeen seventy six.
 
 00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:29.462
 It's the paragraph that when the
 
 00:15:29.482 --> 00:15:32.004
 declaration is exerted in European
 
 00:15:32.044 --> 00:15:35.687
 newspapers or in the Treaty of Watertown
 
 00:15:35.748 --> 00:15:37.409
 or other documents,
 
 00:15:37.970 --> 00:15:40.211
 the last paragraph is the key because that
 
 00:15:40.251 --> 00:15:41.293
 marks the transition.
 
 00:15:41.893 --> 00:15:44.433
 from dependent colonies to independent
 
 00:15:44.474 --> 00:15:44.974
 states.
 
 00:15:45.433 --> 00:15:47.014
 And it says all of the things that
 
 00:15:47.674 --> 00:15:49.556
 the United States now have the power to
 
 00:15:49.596 --> 00:15:49.855
 do.
 
 00:15:51.216 --> 00:15:53.076
 We tend to focus so much on the
 
 00:15:53.136 --> 00:15:55.118
 opening sentences that we forget about the
 
 00:15:55.138 --> 00:15:56.197
 rest of the document.
 
 00:15:56.217 --> 00:15:57.698
 Right.
 
 00:15:57.719 --> 00:16:00.159
 It really is putting in the Virginia
 
 00:16:00.179 --> 00:16:02.240
 resolution that these thirteen colonies
 
 00:16:02.321 --> 00:16:02.921
 aren't a regular
 
 00:16:08.024 --> 00:16:08.524
 Exactly.
 
 00:16:09.105 --> 00:16:11.025
 And the committee draft of the
 
 00:16:11.046 --> 00:16:11.767
 declaration,
 
 00:16:12.027 --> 00:16:14.227
 that final paragraph did not use the
 
 00:16:14.288 --> 00:16:17.409
 language of the Virginia resolution.
 
 00:16:17.951 --> 00:16:20.091
 And so that's where the Congress kind of
 
 00:16:20.111 --> 00:16:22.173
 made some edits to make sure that that
 
 00:16:22.214 --> 00:16:23.313
 language is reinforced,
 
 00:16:23.333 --> 00:16:25.375
 that the resolution that they voted for is
 
 00:16:25.436 --> 00:16:27.777
 represented fully in the Declaration of
 
 00:16:27.817 --> 00:16:28.357
 Independence,
 
 00:16:28.378 --> 00:16:29.938
 that text that's going to go out into
 
 00:16:29.979 --> 00:16:32.159
 the world explaining their decision to
 
 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:33.221
 approve that resolution.
 
 00:16:33.260 --> 00:16:34.861
 And then, of course,
 
 00:16:34.902 --> 00:16:36.302
 there are other things.
 
 00:16:40.506 --> 00:16:42.789
 and you know one is the passage about
 
 00:16:42.809 --> 00:16:44.431
 the british public that we could have been
 
 00:16:44.451 --> 00:16:46.133
 a great and prosperous for free and great
 
 00:16:46.173 --> 00:16:47.875
 prosperous people together they're very
 
 00:16:47.914 --> 00:16:49.636
 disappointed that the british public
 
 00:16:49.677 --> 00:16:51.599
 hasn't been supporting this also the
 
 00:16:51.918 --> 00:16:54.261
 passage on the slave trade which uh is
 
 00:16:54.282 --> 00:16:56.705
 the last of the grievances they're listing
 
 00:16:56.725 --> 00:16:57.625
 about the crown
 
 00:16:58.720 --> 00:16:59.360
 Absolutely.
 
 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:01.941
 And that grievance about the transatlantic
 
 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:02.561
 slave trade,
 
 00:17:02.660 --> 00:17:03.981
 I would say in the last ten or
 
 00:17:04.021 --> 00:17:04.721
 fifteen years,
 
 00:17:04.821 --> 00:17:07.522
 has become a real tool for civic
 
 00:17:07.563 --> 00:17:08.262
 education,
 
 00:17:09.423 --> 00:17:10.804
 almost to the deficit of the rest of
 
 00:17:10.824 --> 00:17:11.403
 the document.
 
 00:17:12.105 --> 00:17:14.045
 When teachers have limited time to talk
 
 00:17:14.065 --> 00:17:15.026
 about the Declaration,
 
 00:17:15.486 --> 00:17:17.227
 they spend it talking about that cut
 
 00:17:17.267 --> 00:17:18.886
 grievance and the implications.
 
 00:17:19.948 --> 00:17:21.948
 I think it's really interesting that the
 
 00:17:22.387 --> 00:17:23.588
 knowledge of
 
 00:17:24.249 --> 00:17:25.529
 who wrote the Declaration,
 
 00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:27.270
 who the principal author was,
 
 00:17:27.310 --> 00:17:29.132
 that doesn't come out until the seventeen
 
 00:17:29.192 --> 00:17:32.834
 nineties when Jefferson's political powers
 
 00:17:32.953 --> 00:17:33.934
 is starting to rise.
 
 00:17:34.555 --> 00:17:36.175
 And the knowledge of what was in the
 
 00:17:36.215 --> 00:17:38.076
 committee drafted the Declaration doesn't
 
 00:17:38.096 --> 00:17:40.278
 come out until after George Wythe's
 
 00:17:40.338 --> 00:17:40.739
 murder,
 
 00:17:41.098 --> 00:17:44.500
 when his papers are made public by a
 
 00:17:44.560 --> 00:17:45.642
 Richmond newspaper printer.
 
 00:17:45.862 --> 00:17:46.962
 That's in one hundred eighteen oh six,
 
 00:17:47.042 --> 00:17:48.163
 right in the middle of Jefferson's
 
 00:17:48.202 --> 00:17:48.903
 presidency.
 
 00:17:50.003 --> 00:17:52.265
 So we forget that in seventeen seventy
 
 00:17:52.305 --> 00:17:52.525
 six,
 
 00:17:52.605 --> 00:17:55.527
 no one knew about this grievance or any
 
 00:17:55.567 --> 00:17:57.048
 of the pieces that were changed by
 
 00:17:57.107 --> 00:17:57.607
 Congress.
 
 00:17:57.647 --> 00:17:59.949
 And there was years of speculation about
 
 00:18:00.368 --> 00:18:02.451
 whether Jefferson's words were better than
 
 00:18:02.471 --> 00:18:05.092
 the final version that were clarified
 
 00:18:05.231 --> 00:18:07.673
 after the fair copy that Jefferson sent to
 
 00:18:07.692 --> 00:18:10.094
 George Wythe was published in newspapers
 
 00:18:10.494 --> 00:18:12.655
 in eighteen oh six.
 
 00:18:12.715 --> 00:18:14.737
 Jefferson certainly did think that his
 
 00:18:14.757 --> 00:18:14.916
 original
 
 00:18:16.538 --> 00:18:21.221
 absolutely um now there are a couple of
 
 00:18:21.281 --> 00:18:24.384
 other famous well places famous because
 
 00:18:24.423 --> 00:18:26.384
 they say we actually had the idea first
 
 00:18:26.424 --> 00:18:28.406
 like mecklenburg in north carolina did you
 
 00:18:28.446 --> 00:18:30.708
 talk at all about any of these other
 
 00:18:31.388 --> 00:18:32.750
 earlier um
 
 00:18:34.286 --> 00:18:34.746
 I don't.
 
 00:18:35.666 --> 00:18:37.009
 I think Pauline Mayer's book,
 
 00:18:37.028 --> 00:18:37.828
 American Scripture,
 
 00:18:37.868 --> 00:18:40.352
 does a phenomenal job of showing all of
 
 00:18:40.392 --> 00:18:41.873
 the local declarations.
 
 00:18:42.032 --> 00:18:44.035
 And then the Mecklenburg Declaration,
 
 00:18:44.134 --> 00:18:46.317
 it's a particularly interesting case where
 
 00:18:46.457 --> 00:18:47.357
 I think historians,
 
 00:18:47.377 --> 00:18:51.161
 the consensus is that the original,
 
 00:18:51.300 --> 00:18:53.282
 the surviving Mecklenburg Declaration of
 
 00:18:53.303 --> 00:18:54.044
 Independence is,
 
 00:18:54.304 --> 00:18:55.284
 is not the original,
 
 00:18:55.763 --> 00:18:58.085
 that someone tried to recreate it and they
 
 00:18:58.545 --> 00:19:01.205
 were influenced by the words of the
 
 00:19:01.226 --> 00:19:02.445
 Declaration of Independence.
 
 00:19:02.486 --> 00:19:05.767
 So when Jefferson and Adams find out about
 
 00:19:05.807 --> 00:19:07.007
 the Mecklenburg Resolution,
 
 00:19:07.086 --> 00:19:09.728
 they're gobsmacked by it and they're
 
 00:19:09.768 --> 00:19:11.028
 trying to figure out how could this have
 
 00:19:11.048 --> 00:19:11.348
 happened?
 
 00:19:11.388 --> 00:19:12.749
 How could we have not known about it?
 
 00:19:13.749 --> 00:19:15.230
 But I think it was a sort of
 
 00:19:15.789 --> 00:19:17.829
 created in reverse kind of.
 
 00:19:18.810 --> 00:19:20.750
 And it's interesting to think about in the
 
 00:19:20.790 --> 00:19:22.592
 context of all the other local
 
 00:19:22.612 --> 00:19:23.332
 declarations.
 
 00:19:23.632 --> 00:19:25.672
 I tend to tell people that there was
 
 00:19:25.692 --> 00:19:28.373
 this vocabulary of independence that was
 
 00:19:28.413 --> 00:19:30.713
 circulating for a long time that predated
 
 00:19:31.193 --> 00:19:32.354
 Thomas Paine's common sense,
 
 00:19:32.394 --> 00:19:34.174
 but certainly was reinforced by it.
 
 00:19:34.654 --> 00:19:37.736
 And so when Congress decides to draft a
 
 00:19:37.776 --> 00:19:39.135
 Declaration of Independence,
 
 00:19:39.675 --> 00:19:42.196
 they are still using that same vocabulary
 
 00:19:42.237 --> 00:19:44.137
 that has been used by others.
 
 00:19:44.157 --> 00:19:46.538
 And it's not a case of plagiarism.
 
 00:19:46.778 --> 00:19:48.900
 And I hate to get into who came
 
 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:51.240
 first or who used this language first,
 
 00:19:51.340 --> 00:19:53.501
 because it's more just that there was this
 
 00:19:53.622 --> 00:19:56.042
 sense of the need for independence and
 
 00:19:56.063 --> 00:19:57.624
 everyone was using the same kind of
 
 00:19:57.683 --> 00:20:00.964
 language to justify that decision.
 
 00:20:01.025 --> 00:20:01.305
 Yeah.
 
 00:20:01.325 --> 00:20:01.885
 And of course,
 
 00:20:02.205 --> 00:20:03.865
 Jefferson initially thinks according to
 
 00:20:03.885 --> 00:20:05.007
 what we know from his
 
 00:20:10.612 --> 00:20:12.573
 pushes him to write it.
 
 00:20:13.012 --> 00:20:13.513
 Yeah,
 
 00:20:13.534 --> 00:20:15.255
 I say in the book that the men
 
 00:20:15.295 --> 00:20:16.675
 at the center of the story had
 
 00:20:16.816 --> 00:20:18.676
 frustratingly foggy memories.
 
 00:20:18.696 --> 00:20:21.077
 And by their own accounts,
 
 00:20:21.137 --> 00:20:23.619
 which are influenced by their later
 
 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:26.681
 struggles and their political careers,
 
 00:20:27.041 --> 00:20:28.643
 their autobiographies are just not
 
 00:20:28.702 --> 00:20:29.303
 reliable.
 
 00:20:30.124 --> 00:20:30.903
 And so we have to,
 
 00:20:32.144 --> 00:20:34.026
 Pauline Mayer called it a puzzle for which
 
 00:20:34.066 --> 00:20:35.926
 we may not ever get all the pieces.
 
 00:20:36.307 --> 00:20:38.367
 to figure out how the Declaration was
 
 00:20:38.508 --> 00:20:39.688
 actually drafted.
 
 00:20:40.409 --> 00:20:41.689
 So while I do spend time on that,
 
 00:20:41.709 --> 00:20:42.950
 and of course people always ask me
 
 00:20:43.009 --> 00:20:44.349
 questions about the drafting,
 
 00:20:44.930 --> 00:20:46.490
 I tend to focus more on what came
 
 00:20:46.530 --> 00:20:48.090
 next and the printing of it.
 
 00:20:48.432 --> 00:20:49.392
 Right, right.
 
 00:20:49.432 --> 00:20:50.692
 Why do you think it's so important to
 
 00:20:50.771 --> 00:20:52.593
 us to know who wrote it and know
 
 00:20:52.633 --> 00:20:54.534
 about that process of writing?
 
 00:20:54.554 --> 00:20:56.355
 The process of writing usually isn't that
 
 00:20:56.394 --> 00:20:57.654
 interesting, as you know,
 
 00:20:57.714 --> 00:20:59.236
 having been writing a book and other
 
 00:20:59.256 --> 00:20:59.455
 things.
 
 00:20:59.516 --> 00:21:00.096
 Yeah.
 
 00:21:01.009 --> 00:21:02.349
 Yeah, I don't know.
 
 00:21:02.410 --> 00:21:04.750
 I don't know if it's because of Jefferson
 
 00:21:04.790 --> 00:21:07.311
 and Adams' later political careers,
 
 00:21:07.352 --> 00:21:09.632
 that if they had just kind of fallen
 
 00:21:09.692 --> 00:21:10.512
 into the background,
 
 00:21:11.373 --> 00:21:13.834
 if no one would pay much attention to
 
 00:21:13.874 --> 00:21:15.753
 who drafted the Declaration.
 
 00:21:16.854 --> 00:21:17.555
 At the time,
 
 00:21:17.615 --> 00:21:19.394
 in seventeen seventy six and really
 
 00:21:19.434 --> 00:21:20.535
 through the end of the war,
 
 00:21:21.016 --> 00:21:23.236
 the Continental Congress was the author of
 
 00:21:23.276 --> 00:21:24.096
 the Declaration.
 
 00:21:24.757 --> 00:21:26.817
 And there's one really interesting
 
 00:21:26.997 --> 00:21:28.978
 broadside printing created in London
 
 00:21:29.057 --> 00:21:29.317
 that's
 
 00:21:30.117 --> 00:21:31.999
 Now at the John Carter Brown Library,
 
 00:21:32.318 --> 00:21:33.818
 they have the only extant copy.
 
 00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:37.099
 And I wrote about this in Declaration
 
 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:38.141
 Stories a few weeks ago.
 
 00:21:39.560 --> 00:21:41.182
 It's a broadside of the Declaration with a
 
 00:21:41.241 --> 00:21:43.282
 portrait of John Hancock at the top
 
 00:21:43.542 --> 00:21:46.384
 because he is the name associated with the
 
 00:21:46.403 --> 00:21:47.023
 Declaration.
 
 00:21:47.304 --> 00:21:49.265
 And he was known in Europe both as
 
 00:21:49.305 --> 00:21:50.785
 being president of the Continental
 
 00:21:50.825 --> 00:21:51.184
 Congress,
 
 00:21:51.224 --> 00:21:53.425
 but also for his mercantile career.
 
 00:21:54.645 --> 00:21:57.586
 So whereas later decorative sort of
 
 00:21:57.686 --> 00:22:01.288
 engravings and lithographs use portraits
 
 00:22:01.448 --> 00:22:03.688
 of Jefferson and Adams and even Washington
 
 00:22:04.107 --> 00:22:05.308
 in seventeen seventy six,
 
 00:22:05.409 --> 00:22:07.229
 it was Hancock whose name was kind of
 
 00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:07.969
 associated,
 
 00:22:08.288 --> 00:22:09.910
 not that they thought he wrote the
 
 00:22:09.930 --> 00:22:12.329
 document himself, but just he signed it.
 
 00:22:12.390 --> 00:22:13.329
 He authorized it.
 
 00:22:13.371 --> 00:22:14.230
 Right.
 
 00:22:14.250 --> 00:22:16.230
 And on that Dunlap printing,
 
 00:22:16.270 --> 00:22:17.832
 his name and Charles Thompson's are the
 
 00:22:17.852 --> 00:22:19.251
 only ones there.
 
 00:22:19.332 --> 00:22:19.731
 Exactly.
 
 00:22:21.128 --> 00:22:22.548
 We're talking with Emily Sneff,
 
 00:22:22.588 --> 00:22:24.089
 historian of the Declaration of
 
 00:22:24.150 --> 00:22:24.890
 Independence.
 
 00:22:24.930 --> 00:22:27.309
 Her book, When the Declaration Was News,
 
 00:22:27.330 --> 00:22:29.971
 is coming out in April of twenty twenty
 
 00:22:30.010 --> 00:22:30.290
 six.
 
 00:22:31.030 --> 00:22:32.791
 And she's also been working with the
 
 00:22:32.832 --> 00:22:34.852
 Museum of the American Revolution on an
 
 00:22:34.932 --> 00:22:37.732
 exhibit opening this week on the
 
 00:22:37.772 --> 00:22:39.232
 Declaration's journey.
 
 00:22:40.453 --> 00:22:41.733
 Let's talk a little bit about the
 
 00:22:41.773 --> 00:22:43.513
 Declaration's journey and this great
 
 00:22:43.534 --> 00:22:45.375
 exhibit that the museum is going to be
 
 00:22:45.414 --> 00:22:45.835
 hosting.
 
 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:46.720
 Sure.
 
 00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:49.221
 So I've been working as part of the
 
 00:22:49.241 --> 00:22:51.384
 curatorial team for this exhibit for the
 
 00:22:51.403 --> 00:22:53.765
 past few years, along with Phil Mead,
 
 00:22:53.944 --> 00:22:55.886
 Amy Ellison, and Matt Skick.
 
 00:22:56.586 --> 00:22:59.169
 And it really is a team effort because
 
 00:22:59.568 --> 00:23:01.990
 the Declaration's journey is covering two
 
 00:23:02.010 --> 00:23:03.392
 hundred and fifty years of the
 
 00:23:03.432 --> 00:23:05.113
 Declaration's global influence.
 
 00:23:05.133 --> 00:23:07.934
 And when you walk into the space,
 
 00:23:07.954 --> 00:23:09.936
 it's amazing how much we actually fit in
 
 00:23:09.957 --> 00:23:10.136
 there.
 
 00:23:10.176 --> 00:23:11.778
 Credit to the fabricators and the
 
 00:23:11.817 --> 00:23:12.397
 designers.
 
 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:14.940
 It's a really incredible experience.
 
 00:23:15.299 --> 00:23:18.782
 um space and what i love about museum
 
 00:23:18.823 --> 00:23:21.964
 work is that you're able to bring objects
 
 00:23:21.984 --> 00:23:24.626
 together that have never before been in
 
 00:23:24.666 --> 00:23:27.108
 the same space and either complete a story
 
 00:23:27.509 --> 00:23:30.490
 or create new through lines and so the
 
 00:23:30.510 --> 00:23:32.673
 declaration's journey is showing both the
 
 00:23:32.732 --> 00:23:35.115
 physical travels of the declaration of
 
 00:23:35.154 --> 00:23:36.256
 independence beginning in
 
 00:23:38.876 --> 00:23:41.198
 but also how the structure and the
 
 00:23:41.258 --> 00:23:43.558
 language of the Declaration have inspired
 
 00:23:44.118 --> 00:23:45.900
 all these different political and social
 
 00:23:45.940 --> 00:23:46.400
 movements,
 
 00:23:46.460 --> 00:23:47.961
 both around the world and then back in
 
 00:23:47.980 --> 00:23:49.040
 the United States.
 
 00:23:50.041 --> 00:23:50.842
 So, for example,
 
 00:23:51.241 --> 00:23:53.663
 we have one of the manuscript copies of
 
 00:23:53.682 --> 00:23:55.483
 the Haitian Declaration of Independence.
 
 00:23:56.443 --> 00:23:57.625
 And as you're looking at that,
 
 00:23:59.105 --> 00:23:59.765
 if you turn,
 
 00:24:00.025 --> 00:24:02.665
 you'll see that across the room there's a
 
 00:24:02.746 --> 00:24:03.606
 Panama hat
 
 00:24:04.146 --> 00:24:06.588
 that was more than likely worn by
 
 00:24:06.630 --> 00:24:09.352
 Frederick Douglass when he was ambassador
 
 00:24:09.372 --> 00:24:12.055
 to Haiti towards the end of his career.
 
 00:24:12.675 --> 00:24:14.817
 And so those two objects have never been
 
 00:24:14.857 --> 00:24:16.519
 in the same space at the same time,
 
 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.702
 but it speaks to this delayed
 
 00:24:20.983 --> 00:24:23.686
 acknowledgement of Haitian independence by
 
 00:24:23.727 --> 00:24:24.907
 the United States that
 
 00:24:25.387 --> 00:24:27.268
 Jefferson refused to acknowledge Haitian
 
 00:24:27.307 --> 00:24:27.848
 independence.
 
 00:24:27.868 --> 00:24:30.648
 It wasn't until during the Civil War and
 
 00:24:30.709 --> 00:24:32.789
 Abraham Lincoln that the US recognized
 
 00:24:32.829 --> 00:24:33.190
 Haiti.
 
 00:24:33.230 --> 00:24:35.390
 And then Douglas later serves as
 
 00:24:35.430 --> 00:24:38.391
 ambassador after his long career of using
 
 00:24:38.431 --> 00:24:41.111
 the declaration to fight for the same
 
 00:24:41.131 --> 00:24:42.771
 things that are being talked about in
 
 00:24:42.811 --> 00:24:43.092
 Haiti,
 
 00:24:43.112 --> 00:24:45.692
 this refusal to return to any form of
 
 00:24:45.751 --> 00:24:46.333
 slavery.
 
 00:24:46.972 --> 00:24:48.853
 So it's those kinds of stories happening
 
 00:24:49.232 --> 00:24:51.594
 in the same space that when you see
 
 00:24:51.634 --> 00:24:52.534
 everything, you know,
 
 00:24:52.874 --> 00:24:54.153
 There's only so much you can do on
 
 00:24:54.193 --> 00:24:55.115
 paper ahead of time.
 
 00:24:55.474 --> 00:24:56.694
 You think things are going to work and
 
 00:24:56.714 --> 00:24:58.055
 then you see them in the space and
 
 00:24:58.075 --> 00:25:01.576
 you realize this is an incredible way of
 
 00:25:01.675 --> 00:25:03.757
 showing the Declaration's legacy across
 
 00:25:03.817 --> 00:25:06.396
 different time periods and different
 
 00:25:06.436 --> 00:25:08.617
 streams of influence.
 
 00:25:08.637 --> 00:25:10.917
 You mentioned the translations of it into
 
 00:25:10.978 --> 00:25:12.818
 Polish and Italian,
 
 00:25:12.999 --> 00:25:14.798
 and then this exhibit carries that
 
 00:25:14.818 --> 00:25:15.338
 forward,
 
 00:25:15.378 --> 00:25:17.859
 showing the importance of the ideas.
 
 00:25:19.012 --> 00:25:19.634
 Absolutely.
 
 00:25:19.673 --> 00:25:19.814
 Yeah,
 
 00:25:19.834 --> 00:25:23.876
 we have one of the first objects that
 
 00:25:23.916 --> 00:25:26.097
 you'll see is one of the first
 
 00:25:26.117 --> 00:25:28.579
 translations created in Philadelphia
 
 00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:30.101
 within days of July fourth.
 
 00:25:30.141 --> 00:25:33.624
 That's the German broadside printing on
 
 00:25:33.663 --> 00:25:35.085
 loan from Gettysburg College.
 
 00:25:36.266 --> 00:25:37.986
 But then as you go through the space,
 
 00:25:38.906 --> 00:25:41.567
 there's all sorts of other declarations in
 
 00:25:41.646 --> 00:25:42.647
 other languages.
 
 00:25:43.028 --> 00:25:44.907
 And we use audio elements as well to
 
 00:25:44.948 --> 00:25:46.929
 reinforce that sort of multilingual
 
 00:25:47.469 --> 00:25:48.009
 aspect.
 
 00:25:48.409 --> 00:25:51.230
 One of my favorite objects and an object
 
 00:25:51.269 --> 00:25:53.990
 we really have required a lot of diplomacy
 
 00:25:54.070 --> 00:25:57.051
 to get it here is a printing press
 
 00:25:57.211 --> 00:25:58.771
 on loan from the National Library of
 
 00:25:58.832 --> 00:25:59.332
 Chile.
 
 00:26:00.031 --> 00:26:00.893
 And that press
 
 00:26:02.393 --> 00:26:04.255
 was actually sent from the U.S.
 
 00:26:04.615 --> 00:26:08.518
 to Chile to be used to fight for
 
 00:26:08.577 --> 00:26:09.199
 independence.
 
 00:26:09.219 --> 00:26:10.920
 So it was the press on which the
 
 00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:12.661
 first newspaper of Chile,
 
 00:26:12.701 --> 00:26:14.962
 the Aurora de Chile, was printed,
 
 00:26:16.163 --> 00:26:17.684
 edited by Camilo Enriquez,
 
 00:26:17.724 --> 00:26:19.567
 who was the sort of Ben Franklin figure
 
 00:26:19.886 --> 00:26:21.268
 of Chilean independence.
 
 00:26:22.469 --> 00:26:24.891
 But there were supporters of South
 
 00:26:24.911 --> 00:26:26.372
 American independence movements in the
 
 00:26:26.471 --> 00:26:26.872
 U.S.
 
 00:26:27.373 --> 00:26:28.534
 who sent this press,
 
 00:26:28.953 --> 00:26:30.075
 one of them being Robert R.
 
 00:26:30.115 --> 00:26:30.955
 Livingston's brother,
 
 00:26:31.855 --> 00:26:33.436
 So there's all these connections.
 
 00:26:33.696 --> 00:26:34.416
 Livingston, of course,
 
 00:26:34.436 --> 00:26:35.718
 was on the committee to draft the
 
 00:26:35.738 --> 00:26:35.958
 declaration.
 
 00:26:35.978 --> 00:26:37.998
 Yes, exactly.
 
 00:26:38.618 --> 00:26:39.598
 And this printing press,
 
 00:26:40.239 --> 00:26:43.641
 we have the newspapers and broadsides and
 
 00:26:43.681 --> 00:26:45.320
 handbills that were printed on it,
 
 00:26:45.621 --> 00:26:47.321
 displayed alongside the press,
 
 00:26:47.801 --> 00:26:48.863
 returning to the U.S.
 
 00:26:48.883 --> 00:26:50.363
 for the first time since it was sent
 
 00:26:50.403 --> 00:26:50.722
 there,
 
 00:26:51.804 --> 00:26:53.784
 and showing the importance of
 
 00:26:53.984 --> 00:26:55.664
 communication technologies.
 
 00:26:56.846 --> 00:26:57.685
 So that press,
 
 00:26:58.346 --> 00:27:00.326
 it speaks to the Spanish media
 
 00:27:00.987 --> 00:27:02.928
 translations of documents like the
 
 00:27:02.948 --> 00:27:05.448
 Declaration and Common Sense and sort of
 
 00:27:06.509 --> 00:27:09.190
 the early print culture down in Santiago.
 
 00:27:09.970 --> 00:27:12.130
 It's really, it's a very big object.
 
 00:27:12.230 --> 00:27:13.770
 We're very glad to have it in the
 
 00:27:13.810 --> 00:27:16.291
 space because it reinforces this idea of
 
 00:27:17.612 --> 00:27:19.512
 translating but also communicating those
 
 00:27:19.553 --> 00:27:20.732
 translations to the public.
 
 00:27:21.852 --> 00:27:22.491
 It's amazing.
 
 00:27:22.511 --> 00:27:22.711
 Of course,
 
 00:27:22.731 --> 00:27:24.752
 the Declaration was meant to place these
 
 00:27:24.813 --> 00:27:26.513
 facts before a candid world,
 
 00:27:26.594 --> 00:27:30.135
 so the world listened for a long time.
 
 00:27:30.195 --> 00:27:31.537
 We're talking with Emily Sneff,
 
 00:27:31.557 --> 00:27:33.077
 historian of the Declaration of
 
 00:27:33.137 --> 00:27:33.718
 Independence,
 
 00:27:33.738 --> 00:27:35.858
 talking about the Declaration's journey,
 
 00:27:35.898 --> 00:27:37.740
 which is an exhibit opening at the Museum
 
 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:39.320
 of the American Revolution in
 
 00:27:39.401 --> 00:27:40.141
 Philadelphia,
 
 00:27:40.580 --> 00:27:42.001
 which has all kinds of really interesting
 
 00:27:53.247 --> 00:27:56.990
 because the delegation from Maine of
 
 00:27:57.049 --> 00:27:59.873
 McMack and Abenaki had come and then the
 
 00:27:59.893 --> 00:28:01.173
 declaration arrived.
 
 00:28:01.213 --> 00:28:05.837
 So it requires really a new relationship
 
 00:28:05.877 --> 00:28:10.520
 between these people and Massachusetts,
 
 00:28:10.540 --> 00:28:12.462
 these former colonial figures.
 
 00:28:13.294 --> 00:28:13.914
 Absolutely.
 
 00:28:13.934 --> 00:28:17.298
 And the Treaty of Watertown is a really...
 
 00:28:17.478 --> 00:28:18.238
 Or Watertown,
 
 00:28:18.258 --> 00:28:19.980
 for those of you not in the Philadelphia
 
 00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:20.380
 area.
 
 00:28:21.540 --> 00:28:24.104
 It's a really great sort of case of
 
 00:28:24.183 --> 00:28:26.506
 something that I had been writing about,
 
 00:28:26.925 --> 00:28:28.606
 and then it came off the page in
 
 00:28:28.667 --> 00:28:29.347
 our exhibit.
 
 00:28:30.108 --> 00:28:34.112
 So we have an early manuscript copy of
 
 00:28:34.172 --> 00:28:35.432
 the treaty on view.
 
 00:28:36.875 --> 00:28:38.496
 And we talk about the fact that the
 
 00:28:38.596 --> 00:28:38.957
 first...
 
 00:28:39.596 --> 00:28:41.759
 formal acknowledgments of the United
 
 00:28:41.818 --> 00:28:46.061
 States as an independent sovereign entity
 
 00:28:46.501 --> 00:28:48.143
 came from Native Americans,
 
 00:28:48.222 --> 00:28:49.183
 not from Europe.
 
 00:28:49.804 --> 00:28:52.645
 And so the Willowstookwee and Mi'kmaq
 
 00:28:53.386 --> 00:28:55.827
 representatives who were in Watertown were
 
 00:28:55.867 --> 00:28:56.368
 the first
 
 00:28:56.949 --> 00:28:59.470
 to acknowledge both the declaration and
 
 00:28:59.490 --> 00:29:00.490
 the United States.
 
 00:29:00.569 --> 00:29:03.351
 And that last paragraph of the declaration
 
 00:29:03.411 --> 00:29:05.412
 is incorporated into the first paragraph
 
 00:29:05.451 --> 00:29:07.292
 of the treaty purely because of the
 
 00:29:07.333 --> 00:29:09.933
 coincidence of the declaration arriving in
 
 00:29:09.973 --> 00:29:10.993
 the middle of their meeting.
 
 00:29:11.914 --> 00:29:14.236
 When these chiefs came down from Maine and
 
 00:29:14.276 --> 00:29:14.895
 Nova Scotia,
 
 00:29:15.496 --> 00:29:17.416
 They thought they were going to be meeting
 
 00:29:17.616 --> 00:29:18.636
 with George Washington.
 
 00:29:18.676 --> 00:29:20.478
 They didn't know that he had moved on.
 
 00:29:21.357 --> 00:29:23.558
 They certainly no one expected that the
 
 00:29:23.578 --> 00:29:25.420
 declaration would arrive in the middle of
 
 00:29:25.460 --> 00:29:26.460
 their conversation.
 
 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:29.840
 And it influences, you know,
 
 00:29:30.121 --> 00:29:31.662
 the text of the treaty itself.
 
 00:29:32.082 --> 00:29:33.742
 But we make that very clear before
 
 00:29:33.843 --> 00:29:36.963
 visitors learn about the French alliance
 
 00:29:37.023 --> 00:29:37.644
 and the sort of.
 
 00:29:39.284 --> 00:29:40.785
 acknowledgement of the US by other
 
 00:29:40.884 --> 00:29:43.306
 European powers that it was first these
 
 00:29:43.465 --> 00:29:46.105
 indigenous and First Nations men who
 
 00:29:46.165 --> 00:29:48.666
 acknowledged both the Declaration and the
 
 00:29:48.707 --> 00:29:49.426
 United States.
 
 00:29:49.626 --> 00:29:50.847
 That's interesting.
 
 00:29:51.428 --> 00:29:52.327
 Next July,
 
 00:29:52.347 --> 00:29:54.028
 July eighteenth of twenty twenty six,
 
 00:29:54.048 --> 00:29:55.788
 they will be reenacting the Treaty of
 
 00:29:55.828 --> 00:29:57.549
 Watertown in Watertown,
 
 00:29:58.170 --> 00:29:59.970
 which is here in Massachusetts.
 
 00:30:00.009 --> 00:30:00.510
 So thank you.
 
 00:30:01.750 --> 00:30:04.231
 It's really fascinating all of these
 
 00:30:04.251 --> 00:30:05.571
 connections that this document
 
 00:30:19.325 --> 00:30:20.005
 moment in history.
 
 00:30:20.025 --> 00:30:20.204
 It is.
 
 00:30:20.224 --> 00:30:21.545
 And for me as a historian,
 
 00:30:21.605 --> 00:30:23.286
 I tend to focus on the founding era.
 
 00:30:23.346 --> 00:30:26.247
 My book is about an eight month period
 
 00:30:26.267 --> 00:30:28.528
 of time in seventy six to seventy seven.
 
 00:30:29.087 --> 00:30:30.949
 And working on the Declaration's journey
 
 00:30:31.528 --> 00:30:34.970
 really expanded my view of the Declaration
 
 00:30:35.109 --> 00:30:36.931
 and took me out of my comfort zone.
 
 00:30:37.050 --> 00:30:37.730
 I learned about
 
 00:30:38.270 --> 00:30:40.031
 Movements that even growing up in the
 
 00:30:40.051 --> 00:30:40.873
 Philadelphia area,
 
 00:30:40.972 --> 00:30:43.394
 I had no idea about the Korean Congress
 
 00:30:43.414 --> 00:30:46.696
 that met in Philadelphia to support Korean
 
 00:30:46.717 --> 00:30:47.897
 independence from Japan.
 
 00:30:47.917 --> 00:30:50.640
 The annual reminder day outside of
 
 00:30:51.101 --> 00:30:51.800
 Independence Hall,
 
 00:30:51.820 --> 00:30:55.364
 a predecessor before Stonewall to the
 
 00:30:55.423 --> 00:30:56.223
 pride parades.
 
 00:30:57.144 --> 00:30:59.046
 There's all these sort of returns to
 
 00:30:59.066 --> 00:31:00.907
 Independence Hall and to the language of
 
 00:31:00.948 --> 00:31:02.729
 the declaration that, yeah,
 
 00:31:03.028 --> 00:31:04.711
 it makes me every time I walk past
 
 00:31:04.770 --> 00:31:05.631
 Independence Hall now,
 
 00:31:05.750 --> 00:31:06.392
 I feel like
 
 00:31:06.832 --> 00:31:08.153
 That was a signal moment.
 
 00:31:08.173 --> 00:31:08.292
 Like,
 
 00:31:08.354 --> 00:31:10.915
 I understand why the Pennsylvania State
 
 00:31:10.955 --> 00:31:12.897
 House was renamed as Independence Hall,
 
 00:31:12.938 --> 00:31:15.861
 because it is iconic and it is a
 
 00:31:16.020 --> 00:31:19.943
 sort of inspirational moment in time for
 
 00:31:20.065 --> 00:31:21.986
 all sides of American history as well as
 
 00:31:22.026 --> 00:31:22.747
 global history.
 
 00:31:22.767 --> 00:31:24.209
 I mean, the exhibit,
 
 00:31:24.249 --> 00:31:26.471
 we include the Confederacy and their claim
 
 00:31:26.510 --> 00:31:27.330
 on the Declaration.
 
 00:31:28.511 --> 00:31:30.192
 We include Martin Luther King Jr.
 
 00:31:30.432 --> 00:31:31.613
 and Abraham Lincoln.
 
 00:31:32.633 --> 00:31:35.193
 So it's really working on the exhibit
 
 00:31:35.334 --> 00:31:36.513
 while working on my book.
 
 00:31:37.315 --> 00:31:39.954
 I've kind of expanded beyond seventeen
 
 00:31:39.994 --> 00:31:44.296
 seventy six to appreciate why this event
 
 00:31:44.375 --> 00:31:46.037
 is worth celebrating two hundred and fifty
 
 00:31:46.057 --> 00:31:46.557
 years later.
 
 00:31:46.596 --> 00:31:49.298
 Maybe more historians should do this when
 
 00:31:49.317 --> 00:31:49.857
 they're working on books,
 
 00:31:49.877 --> 00:31:50.738
 also to work on an exhibit that's related,
 
 00:31:50.758 --> 00:31:52.118
 but not exactly.
 
 00:31:54.864 --> 00:31:55.104
 Yeah,
 
 00:31:55.464 --> 00:31:57.726
 it was a really interesting experience
 
 00:31:57.766 --> 00:32:00.647
 because when you're writing labels and
 
 00:32:00.688 --> 00:32:03.651
 then fixing your chapters,
 
 00:32:03.911 --> 00:32:05.491
 you're thinking about different modes of
 
 00:32:06.452 --> 00:32:08.453
 presenting the Declaration to the public.
 
 00:32:08.615 --> 00:32:10.776
 And I love that mix of short form
 
 00:32:10.796 --> 00:32:11.517
 and long form.
 
 00:32:11.557 --> 00:32:14.979
 And I'm a very sort of visual historian.
 
 00:32:15.138 --> 00:32:18.961
 I think about what the Declaration looked
 
 00:32:19.001 --> 00:32:19.762
 like on the page,
 
 00:32:19.823 --> 00:32:20.584
 the messiness
 
 00:32:21.243 --> 00:32:23.265
 of the process of declaring independence,
 
 00:32:23.305 --> 00:32:25.606
 the typos, the ink splatters, all of that.
 
 00:32:25.747 --> 00:32:27.468
 And so having some of those objects that
 
 00:32:27.508 --> 00:32:30.069
 I've written about be in the exhibit that
 
 00:32:31.111 --> 00:32:32.912
 I'm thinking about and kind of bringing to
 
 00:32:32.951 --> 00:32:34.252
 life with the help of our team,
 
 00:32:34.992 --> 00:32:35.913
 it's been really great.
 
 00:32:35.973 --> 00:32:37.194
 And seeing the exhibit,
 
 00:32:38.075 --> 00:32:40.196
 I'm really excited for visitors to come in
 
 00:32:40.477 --> 00:32:42.317
 and kind of get to see it for
 
 00:32:42.337 --> 00:32:42.919
 themselves.
 
 00:32:42.999 --> 00:32:44.480
 My own experience walking through it for
 
 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:46.641
 the first time was kind of awe at
 
 00:32:46.681 --> 00:32:48.321
 everything that we have in there.
 
 00:32:48.382 --> 00:32:50.923
 I look forward to seeing it too.
 
 00:33:04.335 --> 00:33:05.415
 And he's critiquing it,
 
 00:33:06.276 --> 00:33:08.297
 also critiquing what has happened since,
 
 00:33:08.596 --> 00:33:12.199
 but he's basing the fundamental ideas of
 
 00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:14.961
 liberty and all men being created equal,
 
 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:18.863
 something very important to the nation.
 
 00:33:18.962 --> 00:33:21.003
 And he sees a betrayal as opposed to,
 
 00:33:21.064 --> 00:33:21.263
 boy,
 
 00:33:21.304 --> 00:33:24.066
 this was really simply simple hypocrisy.
 
 00:33:25.164 --> 00:33:25.384
 Yeah,
 
 00:33:25.404 --> 00:33:26.806
 and I think Douglass sets a really
 
 00:33:26.865 --> 00:33:30.446
 important example that we can also see in
 
 00:33:30.946 --> 00:33:32.307
 the women's rights movements with
 
 00:33:32.567 --> 00:33:34.607
 Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Matilda Jocelyn
 
 00:33:34.627 --> 00:33:36.189
 Gage writing declarations.
 
 00:33:37.209 --> 00:33:39.250
 We can see it in the temperance movement,
 
 00:33:39.269 --> 00:33:40.430
 the labor movement.
 
 00:33:41.431 --> 00:33:41.830
 And actually,
 
 00:33:41.871 --> 00:33:43.652
 we can see it starting in seventeen
 
 00:33:43.711 --> 00:33:45.491
 seventy six with the first British
 
 00:33:45.592 --> 00:33:47.192
 critiques of the Declaration.
 
 00:33:47.873 --> 00:33:50.275
 where they're using the form of the
 
 00:33:50.315 --> 00:33:50.875
 Declaration,
 
 00:33:50.915 --> 00:33:53.037
 really thinking about the grievances
 
 00:33:53.116 --> 00:33:56.019
 probably more carefully than the Congress
 
 00:33:56.059 --> 00:33:56.861
 had time to,
 
 00:33:56.881 --> 00:34:01.203
 and kind of either applying them to other
 
 00:34:01.324 --> 00:34:05.327
 injustices or acknowledging the fact that
 
 00:34:05.587 --> 00:34:07.990
 there's hypocrisy in saying all men are
 
 00:34:08.010 --> 00:34:08.990
 created equal and
 
 00:34:09.431 --> 00:34:12.152
 you know pushing back against uh royal
 
 00:34:12.192 --> 00:34:15.474
 authority um but then allowing slavery to
 
 00:34:15.534 --> 00:34:18.135
 continue in the united states um the the
 
 00:34:18.155 --> 00:34:20.016
 british critics in seventeen seventy six
 
 00:34:20.056 --> 00:34:23.518
 see that frederick douglas sees that um
 
 00:34:23.617 --> 00:34:26.679
 other abolitionists um lemuel haynes as
 
 00:34:26.739 --> 00:34:28.239
 early as seventeen seventy six is
 
 00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:29.481
 commenting on that so
 
 00:34:30.762 --> 00:34:34.824
 I think that there's an example of not
 
 00:34:34.945 --> 00:34:36.706
 hate towards the United States,
 
 00:34:36.865 --> 00:34:41.550
 but hope for living up to the principles
 
 00:34:41.650 --> 00:34:44.672
 of the Declaration to actually ensuring
 
 00:34:44.711 --> 00:34:47.695
 that all men are all human beings are
 
 00:34:47.715 --> 00:34:49.536
 created equal and have those rights.
 
 00:34:50.956 --> 00:34:53.757
 So I love seeing that in, you know,
 
 00:34:54.378 --> 00:34:56.179
 I'll find newspaper printings and all
 
 00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:57.818
 sorts of things through time of people
 
 00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.460
 using the language of the Declaration to
 
 00:35:02.181 --> 00:35:04.221
 analyze it and to push for more.
 
 00:35:05.302 --> 00:35:06.842
 And I think Douglass, you know,
 
 00:35:06.862 --> 00:35:08.422
 the fact that his oration has become
 
 00:35:08.943 --> 00:35:10.724
 a great tool for civic education,
 
 00:35:11.324 --> 00:35:13.226
 and I know in Massachusetts and other
 
 00:35:13.246 --> 00:35:17.668
 places has become a sort of an extension
 
 00:35:18.047 --> 00:35:19.768
 of readings of the Declaration, you know,
 
 00:35:19.789 --> 00:35:21.570
 creating a more thoughtful event.
 
 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:25.311
 And I hope that continues because he,
 
 00:35:25.632 --> 00:35:26.833
 you know, his oration,
 
 00:35:27.052 --> 00:35:29.594
 that one oration was not his only time
 
 00:35:29.875 --> 00:35:31.135
 invoking the Declaration.
 
 00:35:32.436 --> 00:35:34.378
 But like Martin Luther King's I Have a
 
 00:35:34.418 --> 00:35:34.938
 Dream speech,
 
 00:35:34.978 --> 00:35:37.760
 it's the most famous time when he invoked
 
 00:35:37.780 --> 00:35:38.521
 the Declaration.
 
 00:35:38.802 --> 00:35:42.945
 And it really pushes us to question what
 
 00:35:42.985 --> 00:35:44.286
 the Declaration, you know,
 
 00:35:44.427 --> 00:35:46.108
 who gets to inherit the Declaration?
 
 00:35:46.148 --> 00:35:47.748
 Who does the language of the Declaration
 
 00:35:47.768 --> 00:35:48.389
 belong to?
 
 00:35:48.409 --> 00:35:53.054
 It's really a phenomenal thing to think
 
 00:35:53.074 --> 00:35:53.213
 about.
 
 00:36:03.472 --> 00:36:07.516
 why they make this the starting point,
 
 00:36:07.777 --> 00:36:08.617
 unless they believed it.
 
 00:36:09.077 --> 00:36:10.940
 It would be much easier to say we
 
 00:36:10.980 --> 00:36:13.161
 don't like the tax policies and we want
 
 00:36:13.202 --> 00:36:14.623
 to set our own tax policies,
 
 00:36:14.663 --> 00:36:17.224
 but instead it's this broad affirmation,
 
 00:36:17.264 --> 00:36:19.708
 a self-evident truth that all men are
 
 00:36:19.728 --> 00:36:22.050
 created equal and have certain inherent
 
 00:36:22.070 --> 00:36:24.032
 inalienable rights and they create
 
 00:36:24.072 --> 00:36:25.873
 governments in order to secure rights.
 
 00:36:25.932 --> 00:36:27.635
 It's such a radical idea.
 
 00:36:29.115 --> 00:36:31.936
 I always tell people that the Declaration
 
 00:36:31.996 --> 00:36:34.597
 of Independence didn't need to be what it
 
 00:36:34.657 --> 00:36:35.038
 was.
 
 00:36:37.018 --> 00:36:39.039
 The structure was not preordained.
 
 00:36:40.518 --> 00:36:42.900
 The things that had to be included were
 
 00:36:42.940 --> 00:36:45.099
 not specified by the Continental Congress.
 
 00:36:47.521 --> 00:36:49.742
 I do give Thomas Jefferson and the
 
 00:36:49.762 --> 00:36:53.563
 committee credit for coming up with what
 
 00:36:53.623 --> 00:36:55.864
 exactly was included and how the document
 
 00:36:55.884 --> 00:36:56.583
 was arranged,
 
 00:36:56.664 --> 00:36:59.065
 because it didn't need to express
 
 00:36:59.545 --> 00:37:01.085
 self-evident truths, but it did.
 
 00:37:01.945 --> 00:37:03.806
 And that kind of set up an expectation
 
 00:37:03.867 --> 00:37:05.927
 for what the United States would be like.
 
 00:37:06.807 --> 00:37:09.309
 that we have continued to struggle to
 
 00:37:09.369 --> 00:37:10.528
 meet, you know,
 
 00:37:10.568 --> 00:37:11.748
 two hundred fifty years on.
 
 00:37:12.909 --> 00:37:14.230
 The Declaration could have just been the
 
 00:37:14.269 --> 00:37:15.110
 last paragraph.
 
 00:37:15.230 --> 00:37:16.170
 It could have been much shorter.
 
 00:37:16.210 --> 00:37:17.371
 It could have been much longer.
 
 00:37:18.990 --> 00:37:20.952
 So we forget that the Declaration kind of
 
 00:37:21.371 --> 00:37:25.072
 was the originator of a genre that other
 
 00:37:25.373 --> 00:37:26.932
 countries and other movements have
 
 00:37:26.992 --> 00:37:27.552
 followed.
 
 00:37:28.833 --> 00:37:32.514
 But the language was kind of just chosen
 
 00:37:32.574 --> 00:37:34.715
 by the men working on it as
 
 00:37:35.534 --> 00:37:36.615
 befitting the moment.
 
 00:37:37.717 --> 00:37:41.219
 And yet it created this sort of need
 
 00:37:41.260 --> 00:37:44.782
 through time to go back to those founding
 
 00:37:44.842 --> 00:37:45.603
 principles.
 
 00:37:45.784 --> 00:37:46.304
 And, you know,
 
 00:37:46.324 --> 00:37:47.885
 from the Constitution through the Bill of
 
 00:37:47.925 --> 00:37:50.527
 Rights to all of the sort of movements
 
 00:37:50.567 --> 00:37:52.168
 for civil rights through time,
 
 00:37:52.909 --> 00:37:55.090
 they keep going back to the Declaration of
 
 00:37:55.130 --> 00:37:57.233
 Independence in a way that I'm not sure
 
 00:37:57.273 --> 00:37:57.733
 the guys in
 
 00:38:01.070 --> 00:38:01.769
 No, it's an amazing story.
 
 00:38:01.989 --> 00:38:03.251
 So Emily,
 
 00:38:03.271 --> 00:38:05.050
 I know you've been busy with the exhibit
 
 00:38:05.351 --> 00:38:06.711
 and getting your book done.
 
 00:38:06.871 --> 00:38:08.452
 We could probably talk for the rest of
 
 00:38:08.492 --> 00:38:09.871
 the day about the Declaration.
 
 00:38:09.911 --> 00:38:11.393
 We'll look forward to reading the book and
 
 00:38:11.432 --> 00:38:12.393
 seeing the exhibit,
 
 00:38:12.813 --> 00:38:15.052
 as well as the Declaration Stories
 
 00:38:15.072 --> 00:38:15.534
 newsletter.
 
 00:38:15.554 --> 00:38:16.974
 So thank you so much for joining us.
 
 00:38:17.653 --> 00:38:18.054
 Thank you.
 
 00:38:18.273 --> 00:38:19.494
 I'm so glad to have the chance to
 
 00:38:19.534 --> 00:38:20.054
 chat with you.
 
 00:38:21.355 --> 00:38:22.994
 So we've been talking with Emily Sneff,
 
 00:38:23.014 --> 00:38:24.516
 historian of the Declaration of
 
 00:38:24.556 --> 00:38:25.195
 Independence,
 
 00:38:25.295 --> 00:38:25.695
 author of
 
 00:38:26.157 --> 00:38:28.079
 when the Declaration of Independence was
 
 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.199
 news coming out next spring,
 
 00:38:30.318 --> 00:38:33.340
 as well as the newsletter Declaration
 
 00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:33.980
 Stories,
 
 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:36.161
 and also one of the curators of this
 
 00:38:36.201 --> 00:38:36.820
 great exhibit,
 
 00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:38.862
 Declaration's Journey at the Museum of the
 
 00:38:38.902 --> 00:38:40.242
 American Revolution.
 
 00:38:40.262 --> 00:38:41.302
 So thank you so much, Emily,
 
 00:38:41.342 --> 00:38:43.682
 for taking time to talk to us.
 
 00:38:44.342 --> 00:38:44.902
 Thanks, Bob.
 
 00:38:45.563 --> 00:38:47.643
 And thanks to Jonathan Lane, our producer,
 
 00:38:47.804 --> 00:38:50.144
 and our listeners around the world.
 
 00:38:50.585 --> 00:38:52.065
 Every week we thank folks in different
 
 00:38:52.105 --> 00:38:54.146
 places who are regularly tuning in,
 
 00:38:54.246 --> 00:38:54.885
 and if you're in one
 
 00:39:03.661 --> 00:39:04.425
 And this week,
 
 00:39:04.545 --> 00:39:06.532
 listeners in Dallas and Fort Worth