Johnson Hall with Ian Mumpton

Johnson Hall, designed in 1763 by noted colonial architect Peter Harrison, was the grand estate of Sir William Johnson, the influential British Superintendent of Indian Affairs in New York. From this stately home, Johnson shaped alliances that helped keep many Indigenous nations aligned with the Crown during the struggle for American independence. Today, the Johnson Hall is preserved as a New York State Historic Site, offering a window into the complex relationships between empire, Native peoples, and the Revolution.

Join Professor Robert Allison in conversation with Ian Mumpton, Interpretive Programs Assistant at Johnson Hall, as they explore Johnson’s legacy, the role of diplomacy and cultural exchange on the frontier, and how this landmark continues to tell stories of power, conflict, and negotiation on the eve of the Revolution. 

https://parks.ny.gov/historic-sites/johnsonhall/details.aspx

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:00.029 --> 00:00:03.111
 good hello everyone welcome
 
 00:00:03.130 --> 00:00:04.371
 to the revolution two fifty
 
 00:00:04.410 --> 00:00:06.011
 podcast I am bob allison
 
 00:00:06.451 --> 00:00:07.833
 chair of the rev two fifty
 
 00:00:07.852 --> 00:00:09.013
 advisory group also a
 
 00:00:09.073 --> 00:00:10.073
 professor of history at
 
 00:00:10.114 --> 00:00:11.214
 suffolk university
 
 00:00:11.654 --> 00:00:12.935
 revolution two fifty is a
 
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 consortium of about seventy
 
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 five organizations in
 
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 massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of the
 
 00:00:18.878 --> 00:00:19.859
 beginnings of american
 
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 independence and our guest today
 
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 is Ian Mumpton.
 
 00:00:23.672 --> 00:00:24.492
 Ian Mumpton is the
 
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 Interpretive Programs
 
 00:00:25.634 --> 00:00:27.054
 Assistant at Johnson Hole
 
 00:00:27.135 --> 00:00:29.556
 State Historic Site in Johnstown,
 
 00:00:29.597 --> 00:00:30.036
 New York.
 
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 Ian, thanks so much for joining us.
 
 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:33.878
 Oh, thank you so much for having me.
 
 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:37.701
 And since I suspect many
 
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 people don't know about Johnson Hole,
 
 00:00:39.963 --> 00:00:41.323
 why don't you tell us
 
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 what's special about it, what it is,
 
 00:00:44.185 --> 00:00:45.887
 who lived there, and what you do?
 
 00:00:47.604 --> 00:00:49.767
 Well, Johnson Hall is,
 
 00:00:50.648 --> 00:00:52.250
 I consider it a very
 
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 special place for a number of reasons.
 
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 um one of the big ones being
 
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 that today as historians
 
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 and historical interpreters
 
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 looking back at it we can
 
 00:01:02.277 --> 00:01:03.378
 really identify it as a
 
 00:01:03.698 --> 00:01:05.480
 cultural crossroads for for
 
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 many of the peoples of
 
 00:01:06.742 --> 00:01:08.423
 colonial era new york but
 
 00:01:08.442 --> 00:01:09.543
 it was also seen that way
 
 00:01:09.644 --> 00:01:11.144
 in its own time this is not
 
 00:01:11.265 --> 00:01:13.027
 just a modern lens applied
 
 00:01:13.066 --> 00:01:14.548
 to it people of the time
 
 00:01:14.987 --> 00:01:16.810
 describe the you know the
 
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 the variety of peoples and
 
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 languages and cultures interacting here
 
 00:01:20.472 --> 00:01:21.995
 which is really an outgrowth
 
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 of its function.
 
 00:01:24.257 --> 00:01:25.180
 The house was built in
 
 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:27.081
 seventeen sixty three as
 
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 the home for Sir William Johnson,
 
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 superintendent of Indian
 
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 Affairs and Molly Brandt,
 
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 who is his second wife.
 
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 She is a Mohawk woman, a very
 
 00:01:38.096 --> 00:01:41.120
 influential figure in both indigenous,
 
 00:01:41.281 --> 00:01:41.460
 you know,
 
 00:01:41.501 --> 00:01:43.644
 American Indian politics of the Northeast,
 
 00:01:43.703 --> 00:01:44.605
 especially amongst the Six
 
 00:01:44.644 --> 00:01:45.647
 Nations of the Haudenosaunee,
 
 00:01:46.046 --> 00:01:48.629
 but also with her influence amongst,
 
 00:01:48.691 --> 00:01:48.870
 you know,
 
 00:01:48.891 --> 00:01:50.852
 colonial European powers as well.
 
 00:01:50.893 --> 00:01:53.477
 So this is a power couple coming together,
 
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 building this large
 
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 elegant home,
 
 00:01:56.960 --> 00:01:58.522
 a home that today really just
 
 00:01:58.543 --> 00:02:00.123
 consists of the hall and
 
 00:02:00.265 --> 00:02:02.606
 two of the flanking stone outbuildings.
 
 00:02:02.647 --> 00:02:04.448
 But at the time was the
 
 00:02:04.528 --> 00:02:05.650
 jewel at the center of a
 
 00:02:05.691 --> 00:02:06.932
 crown that was a seven
 
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 hundred acre working farm
 
 00:02:09.055 --> 00:02:10.856
 on a fifty thousand acre estate.
 
 00:02:12.485 --> 00:02:14.086
 So in that sense,
 
 00:02:14.567 --> 00:02:16.628
 it was a place designed to
 
 00:02:16.688 --> 00:02:18.951
 bring people together for conversation.
 
 00:02:19.171 --> 00:02:21.334
 It became the center for a
 
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 lot of Sir William and
 
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 Molly's diplomatic and
 
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 political activity.
 
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 As with every home that Sir
 
 00:02:28.204 --> 00:02:30.246
 William had built himself
 
 00:02:30.265 --> 00:02:30.985
 in North America,
 
 00:02:31.907 --> 00:02:33.508
 it did have a trade house.
 
 00:02:33.527 --> 00:02:35.128
 So it was a center for the fur trade.
 
 00:02:35.568 --> 00:02:37.691
 Although by the time the family is here,
 
 00:02:38.170 --> 00:02:39.451
 some of that trade activity
 
 00:02:39.472 --> 00:02:41.312
 had shifted further out along the valley.
 
 00:02:42.313 --> 00:02:45.295
 But on the courtyard side of the house,
 
 00:02:45.316 --> 00:02:46.937
 sometimes people say behind the house,
 
 00:02:46.977 --> 00:02:47.397
 but really,
 
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 It was just the other front,
 
 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:50.881
 two fronts to the home.
 
 00:02:51.741 --> 00:02:53.223
 That was a space where
 
 00:02:53.543 --> 00:02:55.383
 native diplomats from
 
 00:02:55.443 --> 00:02:56.705
 amongst the Six Nations,
 
 00:02:56.866 --> 00:02:59.888
 from amongst the Shawnee, the Delaware,
 
 00:02:59.948 --> 00:03:02.550
 Lenape, Canadian and Great Lakes nations,
 
 00:03:03.730 --> 00:03:05.652
 they could gather with Sir William,
 
 00:03:05.693 --> 00:03:06.454
 with officers of the
 
 00:03:06.473 --> 00:03:07.555
 British Indian Department
 
 00:03:07.995 --> 00:03:10.657
 to conduct diplomacy, talking about trade,
 
 00:03:10.956 --> 00:03:12.399
 talking about conflict.
 
 00:03:13.258 --> 00:03:15.881
 talking about land negotiations,
 
 00:03:15.961 --> 00:03:18.203
 land sovereignty, land is purchased here,
 
 00:03:18.663 --> 00:03:21.185
 land is returned to Native
 
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 peoples from this hall.
 
 00:03:23.306 --> 00:03:25.627
 It is very much that center of diplomacy.
 
 00:03:27.528 --> 00:03:28.569
 It's also, though,
 
 00:03:29.050 --> 00:03:30.290
 as a seven hundred acre
 
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 working farm with a large
 
 00:03:32.992 --> 00:03:34.334
 hall attached to it,
 
 00:03:37.955 --> 00:03:39.336
 It was also home to
 
 00:03:39.415 --> 00:03:40.395
 somewhere between thirty to
 
 00:03:40.475 --> 00:03:41.657
 sixty enslaved people of
 
 00:03:41.736 --> 00:03:43.038
 African descent and
 
 00:03:43.138 --> 00:03:44.217
 enslaved Native Americans
 
 00:03:44.318 --> 00:03:46.280
 as well at various times.
 
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 So that's part of the
 
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 stories that we're
 
 00:03:48.941 --> 00:03:50.122
 exploring as well at the site.
 
 00:03:50.722 --> 00:03:52.682
 And these are all groups, Europeans,
 
 00:03:53.203 --> 00:03:53.903
 indigenous folks,
 
 00:03:55.123 --> 00:03:55.985
 people of African descent.
 
 00:03:56.525 --> 00:03:57.665
 they all feature in
 
 00:03:57.705 --> 00:03:59.026
 visitors' descriptions of the hall.
 
 00:03:59.067 --> 00:04:00.548
 They all show up in the
 
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 resources that we're working with,
 
 00:04:01.908 --> 00:04:03.050
 with their stories really
 
 00:04:03.610 --> 00:04:05.411
 inexorably intertwined and
 
 00:04:05.531 --> 00:04:06.891
 just in a fascinating way
 
 00:04:07.393 --> 00:04:09.633
 that we are lucky to have a
 
 00:04:09.674 --> 00:04:10.675
 lot of resources at our
 
 00:04:10.694 --> 00:04:14.217
 disposal to be able to interpret.
 
 00:04:14.277 --> 00:04:15.198
 You were just telling us
 
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 about some of the guests
 
 00:04:16.418 --> 00:04:17.579
 who came to the hall and
 
 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:18.300
 wrote descriptions.
 
 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:19.081
 Of course, one of the most
 
 00:04:19.899 --> 00:04:21.540
 famous paintings of a Native
 
 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:23.982
 American treaty is at Johnson Hall.
 
 00:04:24.122 --> 00:04:25.283
 And there looks like
 
 00:04:25.322 --> 00:04:26.824
 hundreds of people on the
 
 00:04:26.863 --> 00:04:29.425
 lawn for this negotiation.
 
 00:04:29.786 --> 00:04:30.605
 So you can tell us a bit
 
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 more about the visitors,
 
 00:04:32.526 --> 00:04:33.788
 the guests and those who
 
 00:04:33.807 --> 00:04:34.988
 might have come either for
 
 00:04:35.028 --> 00:04:37.089
 treaties or to talk with
 
 00:04:37.110 --> 00:04:38.011
 Sir William Johnson.
 
 00:04:41.367 --> 00:04:41.908
 Absolutely.
 
 00:04:41.968 --> 00:04:44.428
 So the painting that you're referencing,
 
 00:04:44.449 --> 00:04:45.589
 I'm guessing it's the E.L.
 
 00:04:45.629 --> 00:04:48.029
 Henry painting, which is an amazing,
 
 00:04:48.189 --> 00:04:49.130
 amazing painting,
 
 00:04:49.730 --> 00:04:51.112
 especially given that it's
 
 00:04:51.391 --> 00:04:51.992
 painted in the early
 
 00:04:52.012 --> 00:04:54.033
 twentieth century and the
 
 00:04:54.072 --> 00:04:57.713
 amount that it gets right is wonderful.
 
 00:04:58.593 --> 00:05:01.134
 There are definitely inaccuracies to it.
 
 00:05:01.154 --> 00:05:02.456
 Some of the garb by some of
 
 00:05:02.475 --> 00:05:03.295
 the native dignitaries
 
 00:05:03.315 --> 00:05:04.536
 there is not quite accurate.
 
 00:05:05.776 --> 00:05:08.237
 The British flag in it is the post-
 
 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:11.399
 those are relatively small
 
 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:13.242
 details compared to what it
 
 00:05:13.302 --> 00:05:14.543
 does depict well.
 
 00:05:14.644 --> 00:05:15.845
 And that is that it depicts
 
 00:05:16.526 --> 00:05:18.348
 the hall as that meeting place.
 
 00:05:18.988 --> 00:05:19.829
 It's an early twentieth
 
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 century depiction of
 
 00:05:20.951 --> 00:05:21.771
 colonial history in New
 
 00:05:21.812 --> 00:05:24.194
 York that features the enslaved,
 
 00:05:24.254 --> 00:05:25.235
 that shows some of the
 
 00:05:25.295 --> 00:05:26.757
 architectural features of the hall.
 
 00:05:27.817 --> 00:05:30.661
 So a lot of the guests who are here,
 
 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:33.543
 I mentioned, you know,
 
 00:05:33.644 --> 00:05:35.125
 Native leaders from all
 
 00:05:35.146 --> 00:05:37.007
 sorts of different nations who are here,
 
 00:05:37.048 --> 00:05:38.369
 but also some of those
 
 00:05:38.769 --> 00:05:39.951
 Native leaders include
 
 00:05:40.031 --> 00:05:42.973
 family members and close personal allies.
 
 00:05:43.654 --> 00:05:45.257
 Captain Brant, Joseph Brant,
 
 00:05:45.677 --> 00:05:46.718
 is Sir William's
 
 00:05:46.738 --> 00:05:48.040
 brother-in-law and the
 
 00:05:48.302 --> 00:05:49.684
 uncle to the children that
 
 00:05:49.723 --> 00:05:51.065
 he has with Molly Brant.
 
 00:05:51.547 --> 00:05:53.910
 He is part of this family,
 
 00:05:54.911 --> 00:05:56.293
 colonial leaders,
 
 00:05:56.314 --> 00:05:57.656
 colonial European leaders here.
 
 00:05:58.533 --> 00:05:59.934
 you've got a pretty large
 
 00:06:00.033 --> 00:06:01.615
 Johnson family that while
 
 00:06:01.634 --> 00:06:02.855
 they did not all reside here,
 
 00:06:02.896 --> 00:06:04.516
 many of them resided in the area.
 
 00:06:04.596 --> 00:06:06.197
 So they're routinely here as well.
 
 00:06:06.218 --> 00:06:08.178
 You know, Guy Johnson,
 
 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:09.540
 who would succeed Sir
 
 00:06:09.579 --> 00:06:11.161
 William as superintendent
 
 00:06:11.201 --> 00:06:12.442
 of Indian affairs at Sir
 
 00:06:12.461 --> 00:06:13.163
 William's death in
 
 00:06:13.182 --> 00:06:14.202
 seventeen seventy four.
 
 00:06:14.863 --> 00:06:15.684
 Daniel Klaus,
 
 00:06:15.723 --> 00:06:16.944
 one of his other sons in law.
 
 00:06:17.706 --> 00:06:17.865
 But
 
 00:06:18.422 --> 00:06:20.043
 prominent colonial figures.
 
 00:06:20.062 --> 00:06:26.004
 You've got Governor Tryon is
 
 00:06:26.045 --> 00:06:27.064
 in this social orbit.
 
 00:06:27.384 --> 00:06:28.485
 They have one of the rooms
 
 00:06:28.526 --> 00:06:30.086
 in the house specifically
 
 00:06:30.125 --> 00:06:32.927
 prepared for when he comes to visit,
 
 00:06:33.007 --> 00:06:35.028
 this room is ready to receive.
 
 00:06:37.269 --> 00:06:39.350
 Even actually Governor Franklin,
 
 00:06:39.589 --> 00:06:41.091
 Ben Franklin's son,
 
 00:06:41.110 --> 00:06:41.911
 William Franklin there,
 
 00:06:42.430 --> 00:06:44.112
 he is here at the house.
 
 00:06:44.372 --> 00:06:45.951
 He's actually not just here as a guest,
 
 00:06:46.331 --> 00:06:47.593
 but here as part
 
 00:06:48.225 --> 00:06:49.406
 of the seventeen seventy
 
 00:06:49.466 --> 00:06:52.228
 four council uh that and
 
 00:06:52.269 --> 00:06:53.269
 he's here when sir william
 
 00:06:53.329 --> 00:06:55.451
 passes during that council
 
 00:06:56.151 --> 00:06:58.834
 so this is a a place that
 
 00:06:58.874 --> 00:07:01.014
 is attracting some of the
 
 00:07:01.055 --> 00:07:01.776
 some of the really big
 
 00:07:01.815 --> 00:07:02.697
 movers and shakers
 
 00:07:02.776 --> 00:07:04.458
 especially in colonial new
 
 00:07:04.478 --> 00:07:05.999
 york and especially anybody
 
 00:07:06.038 --> 00:07:07.279
 who's involved in that
 
 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:08.600
 confluence of you know
 
 00:07:08.620 --> 00:07:10.923
 colonial british and native diplomacy
 
 00:07:13.637 --> 00:07:15.418
 As a result, these guests,
 
 00:07:15.437 --> 00:07:16.538
 when they're arriving at the hall,
 
 00:07:16.559 --> 00:07:17.600
 their visit would really,
 
 00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:18.160
 for many of them,
 
 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:19.821
 start by approaching
 
 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:21.161
 through these ornamental
 
 00:07:21.201 --> 00:07:23.124
 gardens that unfortunately
 
 00:07:23.184 --> 00:07:24.605
 no longer survive.
 
 00:07:25.084 --> 00:07:26.505
 Visitors today come up Hall
 
 00:07:26.607 --> 00:07:28.348
 Avenue here in Johnstown,
 
 00:07:28.908 --> 00:07:29.988
 but actually we would have
 
 00:07:30.028 --> 00:07:31.509
 to pick up the road and
 
 00:07:31.629 --> 00:07:33.812
 jump it about fifty-ish
 
 00:07:33.891 --> 00:07:35.954
 yards closer to the creek
 
 00:07:35.994 --> 00:07:36.653
 on the other side of the
 
 00:07:36.694 --> 00:07:38.915
 houses that line the road there.
 
 00:07:39.593 --> 00:07:40.415
 as you would be coming up
 
 00:07:40.454 --> 00:07:41.516
 the carriage drive across
 
 00:07:41.536 --> 00:07:43.357
 these manicured lawns and gardens,
 
 00:07:43.697 --> 00:07:45.658
 water features, a shell grotto.
 
 00:07:46.819 --> 00:07:47.680
 At some point,
 
 00:07:47.721 --> 00:07:48.601
 Sir William may have
 
 00:07:48.641 --> 00:07:50.324
 actually had a tipi erected
 
 00:07:50.524 --> 00:07:53.105
 on the grounds, not at all local,
 
 00:07:53.687 --> 00:07:54.466
 not the sort of dwelling
 
 00:07:54.487 --> 00:07:55.348
 that any of the local
 
 00:07:55.387 --> 00:07:56.689
 native peoples here are living in,
 
 00:07:57.069 --> 00:07:57.750
 but one that he had
 
 00:07:57.790 --> 00:07:58.971
 received from leaders of
 
 00:07:58.990 --> 00:08:01.413
 the Lakota while counseling in Detroit.
 
 00:08:01.733 --> 00:08:02.494
 It says he received a
 
 00:08:02.533 --> 00:08:04.636
 leather Indian house that
 
 00:08:04.675 --> 00:08:06.298
 he brings back with him.
 
 00:08:07.538 --> 00:08:09.721
 You would have seen large plantings,
 
 00:08:09.922 --> 00:08:11.043
 some experimental ones,
 
 00:08:11.083 --> 00:08:12.564
 including a variety of
 
 00:08:13.444 --> 00:08:15.547
 white or albino fruits and vegetables,
 
 00:08:16.567 --> 00:08:18.288
 white strawberries, for instance.
 
 00:08:18.629 --> 00:08:20.350
 And you would have seen the
 
 00:08:20.451 --> 00:08:21.793
 other surrounding fields,
 
 00:08:21.872 --> 00:08:22.934
 other surrounding farmland,
 
 00:08:23.574 --> 00:08:24.934
 As you came up that approach
 
 00:08:24.954 --> 00:08:26.954
 to see the carriage front of the house,
 
 00:08:27.834 --> 00:08:28.954
 slave servants would greet
 
 00:08:28.995 --> 00:08:30.935
 guests at the door,
 
 00:08:31.156 --> 00:08:32.355
 bring in their baggage,
 
 00:08:32.416 --> 00:08:34.096
 saddle or stable the horses.
 
 00:08:34.636 --> 00:08:36.157
 People will be shown into
 
 00:08:36.177 --> 00:08:37.836
 that front hall where
 
 00:08:38.236 --> 00:08:39.298
 European and native
 
 00:08:39.317 --> 00:08:41.778
 dignitaries alike are waiting,
 
 00:08:41.837 --> 00:08:43.618
 being shown to rooms, shown to quarters.
 
 00:08:44.038 --> 00:08:45.178
 But if they have immediate
 
 00:08:45.198 --> 00:08:46.639
 pressing business with Sir William,
 
 00:08:47.158 --> 00:08:47.958
 they're spending time in
 
 00:08:47.979 --> 00:08:49.840
 that front hall interacting
 
 00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:50.360
 with each other.
 
 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:52.520
 One of the things I really
 
 00:08:52.581 --> 00:08:53.780
 like to emphasize on tours
 
 00:08:53.821 --> 00:08:55.461
 of the house is that house
 
 00:08:55.501 --> 00:08:56.282
 museums are wonderful.
 
 00:08:56.361 --> 00:08:58.243
 I devoted my career to house
 
 00:08:58.283 --> 00:08:59.582
 museums and historic sites
 
 00:08:59.623 --> 00:09:00.803
 and historic fortifications.
 
 00:09:02.203 --> 00:09:03.024
 But one of the things we
 
 00:09:03.164 --> 00:09:04.846
 often miss because we are
 
 00:09:04.885 --> 00:09:08.027
 so culturally conditioned
 
 00:09:08.366 --> 00:09:09.727
 to be quiet and respectful
 
 00:09:09.748 --> 00:09:11.847
 in museums is how loud this
 
 00:09:11.888 --> 00:09:12.668
 place would have been.
 
 00:09:13.469 --> 00:09:14.129
 You would have been hearing
 
 00:09:14.208 --> 00:09:15.049
 languages by the guests.
 
 00:09:15.070 --> 00:09:15.750
 You would have been hearing
 
 00:09:15.909 --> 00:09:18.010
 English and Dutch and German and French.
 
 00:09:18.403 --> 00:09:19.125
 You would have been hearing
 
 00:09:19.287 --> 00:09:21.514
 Mohawk and Cayuga, Onondaga, Oneida,
 
 00:09:21.573 --> 00:09:22.557
 Seneca, Tuscarora.
 
 00:09:22.938 --> 00:09:24.403
 You would have been hearing Shawnee.
 
 00:09:24.423 --> 00:09:25.668
 You would have been hearing all that.
 
 00:09:27.321 --> 00:09:28.741
 all these native languages.
 
 00:09:29.221 --> 00:09:30.542
 We've also been able to find
 
 00:09:31.062 --> 00:09:31.883
 evidence of where some of
 
 00:09:31.903 --> 00:09:32.903
 the people enslaved at the
 
 00:09:32.942 --> 00:09:34.524
 hall came from.
 
 00:09:34.744 --> 00:09:36.904
 Some who were born in Africa
 
 00:09:36.924 --> 00:09:38.284
 and trafficked either to
 
 00:09:38.304 --> 00:09:39.725
 the Caribbean or directly to New York,
 
 00:09:40.426 --> 00:09:41.647
 and some of the languages
 
 00:09:41.687 --> 00:09:43.106
 that they may have been speaking.
 
 00:09:43.206 --> 00:09:44.288
 There's upwards of twenty
 
 00:09:44.327 --> 00:09:45.648
 languages at council time
 
 00:09:45.687 --> 00:09:46.628
 with hundreds of guests,
 
 00:09:47.089 --> 00:09:48.528
 upwards of twenty different
 
 00:09:48.568 --> 00:09:49.549
 languages that may have
 
 00:09:49.570 --> 00:09:50.950
 been being spoken in that
 
 00:09:51.009 --> 00:09:53.051
 hallway in a twenty-four hour span.
 
 00:09:53.806 --> 00:09:54.145
 And of course,
 
 00:09:54.186 --> 00:09:55.126
 a parrot in the hallway to
 
 00:09:55.167 --> 00:09:56.347
 hear it all and repeat back
 
 00:09:56.368 --> 00:09:57.969
 because they had a whole bunch of bats.
 
 00:09:58.929 --> 00:10:00.291
 Really?
 
 00:10:00.311 --> 00:10:01.471
 We're talking with Ian Mumpton,
 
 00:10:01.511 --> 00:10:02.273
 who's the interpretive
 
 00:10:02.312 --> 00:10:03.413
 programs assistant at
 
 00:10:03.453 --> 00:10:06.155
 Johnson Hole in Johnstown, New York,
 
 00:10:06.196 --> 00:10:08.057
 the home of Sir William
 
 00:10:08.118 --> 00:10:10.480
 Johnson and Molly Branch,
 
 00:10:10.620 --> 00:10:11.921
 with whom he had eight children.
 
 00:10:12.756 --> 00:10:14.957
 he is adopted into the Mohawk tribe.
 
 00:10:14.977 --> 00:10:15.697
 So when you're talking about
 
 00:10:15.738 --> 00:10:16.878
 all of these languages,
 
 00:10:16.957 --> 00:10:19.178
 he would have been speaking them as well.
 
 00:10:20.239 --> 00:10:22.659
 Yes, at least he speaks English.
 
 00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:24.059
 We know he speaks Mohawk,
 
 00:10:26.620 --> 00:10:28.121
 other levels of familiarity
 
 00:10:28.221 --> 00:10:29.881
 with other related languages.
 
 00:10:30.022 --> 00:10:31.722
 But this was not only a
 
 00:10:31.743 --> 00:10:32.722
 space where many people
 
 00:10:32.743 --> 00:10:33.863
 were speaking different languages,
 
 00:10:33.923 --> 00:10:35.504
 but many people were each
 
 00:10:35.524 --> 00:10:36.903
 themselves speaking a wide
 
 00:10:36.923 --> 00:10:38.404
 variety of languages.
 
 00:10:39.504 --> 00:10:41.346
 One of my favorite points to
 
 00:10:41.385 --> 00:10:43.947
 really raise in the hall is
 
 00:10:44.447 --> 00:10:47.148
 just what a multicultural family this was,
 
 00:10:47.168 --> 00:10:48.927
 what a blended family this
 
 00:10:48.988 --> 00:10:49.947
 was with Sir William and
 
 00:10:49.988 --> 00:10:51.068
 Molly and their children.
 
 00:10:52.749 --> 00:10:53.068
 As you said,
 
 00:10:53.109 --> 00:10:54.509
 Sir William is adopted amongst
 
 00:10:54.549 --> 00:10:57.350
 the Mohawks and he adopts certain,
 
 00:10:57.571 --> 00:10:57.931
 you know,
 
 00:10:58.777 --> 00:10:59.898
 certain cultural practices
 
 00:11:00.278 --> 00:11:01.899
 of clothing and a dress,
 
 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:03.721
 but he also really engages
 
 00:11:03.780 --> 00:11:06.243
 with a lot of ceremonial
 
 00:11:06.263 --> 00:11:08.043
 practices and spiritual practices.
 
 00:11:08.965 --> 00:11:10.245
 He really understood the
 
 00:11:10.285 --> 00:11:12.628
 importance of those in a big way.
 
 00:11:13.269 --> 00:11:14.649
 And what he didn't
 
 00:11:14.710 --> 00:11:15.990
 understand by the time he's
 
 00:11:16.030 --> 00:11:16.951
 with Molly Branch,
 
 00:11:17.131 --> 00:11:17.892
 she's going to be making
 
 00:11:17.912 --> 00:11:19.312
 sure he understands at a
 
 00:11:19.352 --> 00:11:20.975
 deeper level from that point forward.
 
 00:11:22.076 --> 00:11:23.376
 So their children grow up
 
 00:11:24.078 --> 00:11:26.885
 really in many ways getting, you know,
 
 00:11:26.966 --> 00:11:29.592
 getting those, some of the,
 
 00:11:29.613 --> 00:11:30.094
 I would say almost the
 
 00:11:30.114 --> 00:11:32.941
 healthiest aspects of these cultures,
 
 00:11:33.884 --> 00:11:35.785
 fully enmeshed in their upbringing.
 
 00:11:36.706 --> 00:11:37.488
 They're wearing both
 
 00:11:37.567 --> 00:11:39.950
 European and Mohawk clothing.
 
 00:11:40.330 --> 00:11:41.530
 They're participating in
 
 00:11:42.410 --> 00:11:44.312
 customs and rituals from both groups.
 
 00:11:44.972 --> 00:11:46.193
 And this isn't something
 
 00:11:46.234 --> 00:11:48.096
 that it's just Molly Brandt
 
 00:11:48.995 --> 00:11:49.937
 supporting her children
 
 00:11:49.956 --> 00:11:51.899
 speaking Mohawk as they grow up.
 
 00:11:51.918 --> 00:11:52.759
 This is something that Sir
 
 00:11:52.778 --> 00:11:54.941
 William supports as well as
 
 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:56.282
 the children begin their
 
 00:11:56.302 --> 00:11:57.342
 broader education.
 
 00:11:57.423 --> 00:11:58.903
 For instance, their son, Peter,
 
 00:11:58.923 --> 00:12:00.144
 their oldest son there,
 
 00:12:00.684 --> 00:12:02.907
 he is sent to Philadelphia for schooling.
 
 00:12:03.590 --> 00:12:04.331
 And while he's there,
 
 00:12:04.370 --> 00:12:05.611
 his letters home to his
 
 00:12:05.652 --> 00:12:07.453
 parents are absolutely wonderful.
 
 00:12:09.375 --> 00:12:10.236
 He's a little bit older than
 
 00:12:10.256 --> 00:12:11.317
 my daughter at that point.
 
 00:12:11.378 --> 00:12:13.220
 But some of them remind me
 
 00:12:13.321 --> 00:12:15.702
 of when there's something
 
 00:12:15.743 --> 00:12:17.284
 that she would really like to do,
 
 00:12:17.345 --> 00:12:18.186
 and she's trying to find a
 
 00:12:18.206 --> 00:12:18.986
 way to make it sound like
 
 00:12:19.386 --> 00:12:20.849
 it's a really good idea.
 
 00:12:21.609 --> 00:12:23.772
 Saying like, oh, I'm so invested in it.
 
 00:12:23.792 --> 00:12:25.394
 Peter says, I'm so invested in my studies.
 
 00:12:26.193 --> 00:12:30.135
 I can't wait to pursue these more.
 
 00:12:30.836 --> 00:12:32.616
 And I really don't want to
 
 00:12:32.636 --> 00:12:33.697
 be late for classes.
 
 00:12:33.977 --> 00:12:35.278
 Could you send me a pocket watch?
 
 00:12:35.318 --> 00:12:36.458
 If you send me a pocket watch,
 
 00:12:36.479 --> 00:12:37.340
 I can really make sure that
 
 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.461
 I'm punctual for my studies.
 
 00:12:40.020 --> 00:12:41.542
 But my favorite is when he
 
 00:12:41.562 --> 00:12:44.702
 writes to his parents and asks them,
 
 00:12:44.763 --> 00:12:46.464
 would you please send me books in Mohawk?
 
 00:12:46.504 --> 00:12:47.043
 He says, quote,
 
 00:12:47.063 --> 00:12:48.705
 so I will not forget my tongue.
 
 00:12:49.365 --> 00:12:49.625
 Wow.
 
 00:12:50.285 --> 00:12:51.147
 And we have to think about,
 
 00:12:51.407 --> 00:12:52.047
 for his experience,
 
 00:12:52.086 --> 00:12:53.528
 this is a young man who is
 
 00:12:53.988 --> 00:12:55.249
 further away from home than
 
 00:12:55.269 --> 00:12:56.009
 he's really ever been.
 
 00:12:56.750 --> 00:12:57.909
 He's in a very different
 
 00:12:58.169 --> 00:13:00.051
 cultural environment now.
 
 00:13:00.130 --> 00:13:01.371
 He's not, I mean,
 
 00:13:01.412 --> 00:13:02.413
 while there are native
 
 00:13:02.452 --> 00:13:03.533
 peoples in Philadelphia,
 
 00:13:03.552 --> 00:13:04.953
 it is a very multicultural setting.
 
 00:13:05.453 --> 00:13:07.054
 It is not the same setting
 
 00:13:07.095 --> 00:13:07.934
 as the Mohawk Valley.
 
 00:13:07.975 --> 00:13:09.115
 He's not hearing Mohawk
 
 00:13:09.155 --> 00:13:10.956
 spoken every single day
 
 00:13:11.116 --> 00:13:13.158
 around him at home and in
 
 00:13:13.197 --> 00:13:14.158
 his wider community.
 
 00:13:15.678 --> 00:13:17.460
 And he's looking to maintain that.
 
 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:18.659
 But interestingly,
 
 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:19.660
 he doesn't just write to
 
 00:13:19.701 --> 00:13:20.640
 his mother and say,
 
 00:13:20.701 --> 00:13:22.182
 can you please send me these books?
 
 00:13:22.201 --> 00:13:23.081
 He's writing to both of his
 
 00:13:23.121 --> 00:13:24.782
 parents because he clearly
 
 00:13:24.822 --> 00:13:25.923
 expects that both of his
 
 00:13:25.982 --> 00:13:27.644
 parents will be invested in
 
 00:13:27.683 --> 00:13:30.183
 him continuing to speak that language.
 
 00:13:30.264 --> 00:13:32.004
 It's amazing.
 
 00:13:32.304 --> 00:13:33.905
 And Johnson himself, I mean,
 
 00:13:33.985 --> 00:13:35.485
 he's already made this leap.
 
 00:13:35.505 --> 00:13:35.706
 I mean,
 
 00:13:35.787 --> 00:13:38.327
 he was Irish and becomes an English
 
 00:13:38.427 --> 00:13:38.988
 officer.
 
 00:13:39.067 --> 00:13:40.687
 And can you tell us a bit more about,
 
 00:13:41.068 --> 00:13:41.948
 we'll get back to Molly
 
 00:13:41.969 --> 00:13:44.009
 because she's a fascinating person,
 
 00:13:44.070 --> 00:13:46.490
 but how did he get to this
 
 00:13:46.530 --> 00:13:47.410
 particular place?
 
 00:13:48.499 --> 00:13:49.038
 Well,
 
 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:50.760
 he really gets to start working for
 
 00:13:50.821 --> 00:13:52.381
 his uncle, Sir Peter Warren.
 
 00:13:52.782 --> 00:13:55.703
 Sir Peter Warren was a naval
 
 00:13:55.724 --> 00:13:59.586
 hero for the British Navy
 
 00:14:00.727 --> 00:14:03.090
 from previous conflicts.
 
 00:14:03.289 --> 00:14:05.451
 But a lot of his wealth at
 
 00:14:05.471 --> 00:14:06.192
 that point is coming
 
 00:14:06.211 --> 00:14:07.413
 through the timber trade,
 
 00:14:08.072 --> 00:14:09.394
 but also through land
 
 00:14:09.433 --> 00:14:10.914
 grants and estates that
 
 00:14:10.934 --> 00:14:12.135
 he's trying to put tenant
 
 00:14:12.155 --> 00:14:14.398
 farmers on elsewhere in the colony.
 
 00:14:15.118 --> 00:14:16.759
 And one of those is on the
 
 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:18.360
 south side of the Mohawk River,
 
 00:14:18.860 --> 00:14:20.062
 just south of the modern
 
 00:14:20.182 --> 00:14:21.363
 community of Amsterdam.
 
 00:14:22.203 --> 00:14:23.245
 And Sir William, well,
 
 00:14:23.264 --> 00:14:24.245
 he's not Sir William yet.
 
 00:14:24.285 --> 00:14:26.648
 He's still just William from, you know,
 
 00:14:26.687 --> 00:14:27.729
 freshly come over from Ireland.
 
 00:14:28.168 --> 00:14:29.470
 He starts working this
 
 00:14:29.529 --> 00:14:32.091
 estate for his uncle, you know,
 
 00:14:32.152 --> 00:14:33.332
 managing some of the farm work,
 
 00:14:33.352 --> 00:14:35.715
 but also helping to manage
 
 00:14:35.955 --> 00:14:37.096
 the trade house because the
 
 00:14:37.155 --> 00:14:39.238
 fur trade is huge.
 
 00:14:40.599 --> 00:14:42.821
 The fur bearing animals in Europe,
 
 00:14:43.236 --> 00:14:45.177
 had been heavily hunted and trapped,
 
 00:14:45.217 --> 00:14:46.138
 many of them almost to
 
 00:14:46.177 --> 00:14:47.378
 extinction or to extinction
 
 00:14:47.418 --> 00:14:49.379
 in certain areas for a
 
 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:50.719
 considerable span at that point.
 
 00:14:50.778 --> 00:14:54.100
 So a lot of times in early US history,
 
 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:54.720
 we talk about the
 
 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:56.299
 importance of the early fur trade.
 
 00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:58.500
 The fur trade doesn't end,
 
 00:14:58.921 --> 00:15:00.061
 but it also isn't steady.
 
 00:15:00.140 --> 00:15:01.201
 It comes and goes.
 
 00:15:01.601 --> 00:15:03.322
 It's a very unpredictable
 
 00:15:03.381 --> 00:15:04.342
 economy and it will make
 
 00:15:04.363 --> 00:15:06.123
 you a fortune or you will
 
 00:15:06.163 --> 00:15:06.883
 sink everything that you
 
 00:15:06.923 --> 00:15:09.104
 have into it and not really get anywhere.
 
 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:11.504
 And what his uncle is
 
 00:15:11.524 --> 00:15:12.285
 finding is that it's
 
 00:15:12.326 --> 00:15:13.207
 surprisingly hard to make
 
 00:15:13.227 --> 00:15:14.188
 money in the fur trade,
 
 00:15:14.629 --> 00:15:15.793
 which really should not
 
 00:15:15.812 --> 00:15:16.793
 have been the case in the
 
 00:15:16.955 --> 00:15:17.716
 late seventeen thirties,
 
 00:15:17.755 --> 00:15:18.738
 early seventeen forties.
 
 00:15:19.198 --> 00:15:20.301
 Things are going pretty well
 
 00:15:20.380 --> 00:15:21.123
 out here for that.
 
 00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:25.552
 But William notes a couple of issues.
 
 00:15:25.994 --> 00:15:27.934
 He notes that the items his
 
 00:15:28.054 --> 00:15:29.436
 uncle is stocking the trade
 
 00:15:29.476 --> 00:15:31.738
 house with are not really
 
 00:15:31.837 --> 00:15:33.198
 what the people in this
 
 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.321
 section of the Mohawk Valley, you know,
 
 00:15:35.380 --> 00:15:37.722
 west of Schenectady, are looking for.
 
 00:15:38.082 --> 00:15:39.585
 Whether European colonists
 
 00:15:39.784 --> 00:15:41.186
 or any of the Mohawk
 
 00:15:41.206 --> 00:15:43.488
 communities around here, you know,
 
 00:15:43.567 --> 00:15:46.110
 the upper and lower castles, Fort Hunter,
 
 00:15:46.149 --> 00:15:46.850
 kind of Jeheri,
 
 00:15:47.630 --> 00:15:49.753
 even out to other European
 
 00:15:50.113 --> 00:15:51.033
 settlements in the area.
 
 00:15:51.433 --> 00:15:52.455
 It's not really quite what
 
 00:15:52.475 --> 00:15:53.235
 they're looking for.
 
 00:15:53.855 --> 00:15:55.657
 So people aren't as eager to buy it,
 
 00:15:55.777 --> 00:15:57.158
 understandably.
 
 00:15:57.217 --> 00:15:58.298
 He also notes that they're
 
 00:15:58.318 --> 00:15:59.379
 on the wrong side of the
 
 00:15:59.419 --> 00:16:02.181
 river to tap into a lot of that trade.
 
 00:16:02.721 --> 00:16:03.962
 So he tries to convince his
 
 00:16:04.043 --> 00:16:06.524
 uncle to shift the operation.
 
 00:16:06.563 --> 00:16:08.125
 His uncle's not really on board.
 
 00:16:09.145 --> 00:16:13.048
 So William, well,
 
 00:16:13.428 --> 00:16:15.250
 William does what is going
 
 00:16:15.269 --> 00:16:16.091
 to be effective,
 
 00:16:16.510 --> 00:16:17.331
 even if it's not going to
 
 00:16:17.351 --> 00:16:18.493
 be popular with his uncle.
 
 00:16:19.658 --> 00:16:20.479
 He takes money that was
 
 00:16:20.499 --> 00:16:21.240
 supposed to be for the
 
 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:22.259
 furnishing of the trade
 
 00:16:22.299 --> 00:16:23.541
 house and management of his
 
 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:25.623
 uncle's estates, hops across the river,
 
 00:16:26.003 --> 00:16:27.203
 builds his own home and his
 
 00:16:27.264 --> 00:16:28.745
 own trade house and stocks
 
 00:16:28.845 --> 00:16:30.466
 it with the goods that
 
 00:16:30.645 --> 00:16:31.966
 other people in the area
 
 00:16:32.006 --> 00:16:33.168
 are actually looking to get.
 
 00:16:34.932 --> 00:16:36.673
 A lot of this is going to be textiles.
 
 00:16:37.114 --> 00:16:38.955
 Stroud cloth from, you know,
 
 00:16:38.975 --> 00:16:40.456
 gets its name from Stroudwater, England.
 
 00:16:40.917 --> 00:16:41.977
 It's a mid-weight wool,
 
 00:16:41.998 --> 00:16:43.960
 heavier than most clothing wool,
 
 00:16:44.019 --> 00:16:45.421
 but lighter weight than blankets.
 
 00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:47.682
 Comes in beautiful, vibrant colors.
 
 00:16:48.182 --> 00:16:50.024
 It is one of the most highly
 
 00:16:50.065 --> 00:16:52.307
 demanded objects in the fur
 
 00:16:52.326 --> 00:16:53.548
 trade's native communities.
 
 00:16:55.409 --> 00:16:57.371
 he's stocking uh you know
 
 00:16:57.412 --> 00:16:59.472
 chinese silks india block
 
 00:16:59.493 --> 00:17:01.715
 printed cottons uh silver
 
 00:17:01.815 --> 00:17:02.794
 uh you know silver silver
 
 00:17:02.835 --> 00:17:04.517
 ornamentation and practical
 
 00:17:04.557 --> 00:17:06.038
 tools a lot of ironware
 
 00:17:06.157 --> 00:17:07.959
 brassware things that
 
 00:17:08.159 --> 00:17:09.299
 everybody is looking for
 
 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:12.061
 and he makes money not only
 
 00:17:12.082 --> 00:17:13.282
 does he make money this way
 
 00:17:13.323 --> 00:17:14.364
 but it also sends a clear
 
 00:17:14.384 --> 00:17:15.263
 message to his neighbors
 
 00:17:15.565 --> 00:17:16.825
 that this is somebody who
 
 00:17:16.845 --> 00:17:17.786
 will listen this is
 
 00:17:17.826 --> 00:17:19.788
 somebody who hears as much
 
 00:17:19.887 --> 00:17:21.328
 and who hears and provides
 
 00:17:24.013 --> 00:17:25.875
 as much as he is taking.
 
 00:17:27.116 --> 00:17:27.856
 And that puts him in a
 
 00:17:27.877 --> 00:17:29.058
 really good position to
 
 00:17:29.098 --> 00:17:30.079
 begin developing these
 
 00:17:30.099 --> 00:17:31.181
 diplomatic connections.
 
 00:17:32.582 --> 00:17:33.782
 Early in his career,
 
 00:17:33.844 --> 00:17:35.025
 he really identifies the
 
 00:17:35.045 --> 00:17:36.425
 importance of maintaining a
 
 00:17:36.506 --> 00:17:40.190
 military and trade and land relationship
 
 00:17:40.615 --> 00:17:41.394
 with the Mohawk,
 
 00:17:42.095 --> 00:17:42.855
 especially with Mohawk
 
 00:17:42.875 --> 00:17:44.955
 communities in this area.
 
 00:17:45.435 --> 00:17:46.596
 Chief Hendrick, for instance,
 
 00:17:46.616 --> 00:17:49.277
 is one of his strong early allies.
 
 00:17:50.076 --> 00:17:51.238
 And at times,
 
 00:17:51.278 --> 00:17:52.417
 this comes at the expense of
 
 00:17:52.458 --> 00:17:53.278
 other Native nations
 
 00:17:53.597 --> 00:17:58.559
 upholding Mohawk claims to authority over,
 
 00:17:58.900 --> 00:18:00.880
 for instance, Delaware and Lenape land.
 
 00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:03.121
 The diplomacy and
 
 00:18:03.161 --> 00:18:04.240
 colonialism game really has
 
 00:18:04.300 --> 00:18:05.901
 never changed all that much.
 
 00:18:06.862 --> 00:18:07.862
 There's always going to be
 
 00:18:08.933 --> 00:18:10.276
 negotiations with different groups,
 
 00:18:10.296 --> 00:18:10.936
 different factions,
 
 00:18:10.957 --> 00:18:13.980
 different peoples within within a region.
 
 00:18:15.561 --> 00:18:17.404
 And so he really emphasizes
 
 00:18:17.424 --> 00:18:19.307
 the importance of that
 
 00:18:19.346 --> 00:18:21.348
 Mohawk alliance in a big way.
 
 00:18:21.409 --> 00:18:21.809
 At times,
 
 00:18:21.849 --> 00:18:23.952
 that alliance is challenged early
 
 00:18:23.972 --> 00:18:24.913
 in the French and Indian War.
 
 00:18:25.498 --> 00:18:26.657
 at the Battle of Lake George,
 
 00:18:26.698 --> 00:18:27.519
 the battle that really
 
 00:18:27.638 --> 00:18:28.878
 launches Sir William's
 
 00:18:29.378 --> 00:18:30.619
 career to its next step,
 
 00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:32.340
 the Mohawk fighters
 
 00:18:32.961 --> 00:18:35.061
 fighting alongside his
 
 00:18:35.102 --> 00:18:37.883
 forces there take heavy, heavy casualties,
 
 00:18:37.942 --> 00:18:39.022
 including Chief Hendrick.
 
 00:18:40.423 --> 00:18:41.304
 And that
 
 00:18:42.557 --> 00:18:44.518
 that does jeopardize that
 
 00:18:44.557 --> 00:18:45.739
 relationship it's one that
 
 00:18:45.778 --> 00:18:47.319
 he he really cannot take
 
 00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:49.121
 for granted has to continue
 
 00:18:49.161 --> 00:18:50.982
 to to maintain and develop
 
 00:18:51.022 --> 00:18:52.063
 again into that next
 
 00:18:52.143 --> 00:18:54.144
 generation meanwhile
 
 00:18:54.825 --> 00:18:56.046
 william johnson's career
 
 00:18:56.086 --> 00:18:57.027
 really launches at that
 
 00:18:57.067 --> 00:18:58.007
 point in a bigger way
 
 00:18:58.468 --> 00:18:59.407
 because it's an early
 
 00:18:59.428 --> 00:19:00.949
 victory in a conflict where
 
 00:19:01.509 --> 00:19:02.349
 isn't getting a lot of
 
 00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:03.971
 early victories it's
 
 00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:05.511
 heavily publicized in
 
 00:19:05.551 --> 00:19:07.874
 britain uh there's prints being made
 
 00:19:08.424 --> 00:19:10.248
 And for that victory,
 
 00:19:10.307 --> 00:19:11.951
 that's when he receives his
 
 00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:12.912
 title of baronetcy.
 
 00:19:12.951 --> 00:19:14.694
 He becomes Sir William Johnson,
 
 00:19:15.175 --> 00:19:16.478
 first baronet of New York,
 
 00:19:16.919 --> 00:19:18.320
 with all the honors and
 
 00:19:18.340 --> 00:19:19.762
 privileges associated with it.
 
 00:19:21.991 --> 00:19:25.795
 And it really solidifies his
 
 00:19:25.835 --> 00:19:26.955
 position in his military
 
 00:19:27.036 --> 00:19:30.558
 role moving forward as well.
 
 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:33.121
 So that's a good bit before
 
 00:19:33.161 --> 00:19:34.461
 the house here.
 
 00:19:34.481 --> 00:19:36.282
 But we can see that
 
 00:19:36.303 --> 00:19:37.805
 trajectory from the early
 
 00:19:37.845 --> 00:19:38.444
 days of the French and
 
 00:19:38.484 --> 00:19:40.287
 Indian War until his death
 
 00:19:40.346 --> 00:19:41.448
 on the eve of the
 
 00:19:41.488 --> 00:19:44.230
 revolution as the close
 
 00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:45.351
 relationship between those.
 
 00:19:46.756 --> 00:19:47.957
 We're talking with Ian Mumpton,
 
 00:19:47.977 --> 00:19:48.977
 the interpretive programs
 
 00:19:49.017 --> 00:19:50.317
 assistant at Johnson Hall
 
 00:19:50.337 --> 00:19:52.059
 State Historic Site in Johnstown,
 
 00:19:52.099 --> 00:19:52.539
 New York,
 
 00:19:53.080 --> 00:19:54.961
 home of William Johnson and
 
 00:19:55.242 --> 00:19:56.743
 Molly Grant Johnson,
 
 00:19:57.423 --> 00:19:59.205
 and really a gathering place,
 
 00:19:59.286 --> 00:20:00.906
 a connection between these
 
 00:20:00.926 --> 00:20:02.949
 various cultures in North
 
 00:20:02.989 --> 00:20:04.369
 America at this time.
 
 00:20:05.050 --> 00:20:06.172
 And then you mentioned it's
 
 00:20:06.231 --> 00:20:07.231
 only this brief,
 
 00:20:07.932 --> 00:20:09.013
 relatively brief window
 
 00:20:09.034 --> 00:20:09.894
 that is from seventeen
 
 00:20:09.934 --> 00:20:11.175
 sixty three to seventeen
 
 00:20:11.256 --> 00:20:13.597
 seventy four when he dies and then
 
 00:20:15.765 --> 00:20:17.925
 then the house is actually
 
 00:20:18.006 --> 00:20:19.645
 seized in seventeen seventy six.
 
 00:20:19.665 --> 00:20:20.946
 The Johnsons remain loyal to
 
 00:20:20.987 --> 00:20:23.367
 the crown and Molly and
 
 00:20:23.468 --> 00:20:26.848
 others go wind up in Canada as a result.
 
 00:20:28.269 --> 00:20:30.230
 So what happens in the house
 
 00:20:30.450 --> 00:20:32.730
 after Sir William's passing
 
 00:20:32.790 --> 00:20:33.932
 in seventeen seventy four?
 
 00:20:34.051 --> 00:20:35.172
 But this must have been an
 
 00:20:35.192 --> 00:20:36.252
 extraordinary thing because
 
 00:20:36.292 --> 00:20:37.452
 all of these people are
 
 00:20:37.492 --> 00:20:38.834
 there for this gathering.
 
 00:20:38.913 --> 00:20:40.874
 And he is the guy who's
 
 00:20:41.815 --> 00:20:42.795
 connected these notes.
 
 00:20:46.505 --> 00:20:48.046
 The scale of his funeral,
 
 00:20:48.205 --> 00:20:50.507
 given how unexpected it was,
 
 00:20:50.626 --> 00:20:51.626
 really speaks to what a
 
 00:20:51.686 --> 00:20:53.468
 monumental shift that is in
 
 00:20:53.488 --> 00:20:54.988
 July of seventeen seventy four.
 
 00:20:55.428 --> 00:20:56.628
 He dies on the eleventh.
 
 00:20:56.909 --> 00:20:58.209
 He's interred on the thirteenth.
 
 00:20:58.269 --> 00:20:59.809
 That is a fast turnaround.
 
 00:21:00.430 --> 00:21:02.590
 And because he passed in the
 
 00:21:02.631 --> 00:21:05.451
 middle of this large native council,
 
 00:21:06.031 --> 00:21:07.413
 um there are hundreds of
 
 00:21:07.452 --> 00:21:08.432
 people present for his
 
 00:21:08.512 --> 00:21:09.973
 funeral uh some some
 
 00:21:10.173 --> 00:21:10.934
 accounts say that the
 
 00:21:10.994 --> 00:21:12.674
 funeral procession the the
 
 00:21:12.694 --> 00:21:13.736
 coffin and pallbearers are
 
 00:21:13.756 --> 00:21:14.836
 arriving at the church
 
 00:21:14.876 --> 00:21:16.577
 almost a mile away as the
 
 00:21:16.637 --> 00:21:17.577
 last of the morning
 
 00:21:17.597 --> 00:21:18.538
 procession is leaving the
 
 00:21:18.598 --> 00:21:21.000
 hall wow um you know the
 
 00:21:21.019 --> 00:21:22.200
 european dignitaries there
 
 00:21:22.260 --> 00:21:23.020
 they're they're in their
 
 00:21:23.040 --> 00:21:24.121
 black mourning clothes but
 
 00:21:24.141 --> 00:21:25.321
 there's also the they're
 
 00:21:25.342 --> 00:21:26.663
 providing black stroud
 
 00:21:26.722 --> 00:21:28.423
 cloth this trade cloth to
 
 00:21:28.544 --> 00:21:29.763
 mohawk sachems who are
 
 00:21:29.804 --> 00:21:30.984
 present for it uh black
 
 00:21:31.025 --> 00:21:34.326
 stroud cloth and and white gloves and
 
 00:21:35.145 --> 00:21:36.247
 That's really kind of when
 
 00:21:36.267 --> 00:21:37.228
 everything changes out here.
 
 00:21:39.048 --> 00:21:41.250
 Molly leaves the hall shortly after that,
 
 00:21:41.750 --> 00:21:42.511
 taking up residence out
 
 00:21:42.531 --> 00:21:43.291
 near County Johari,
 
 00:21:43.612 --> 00:21:44.993
 brings their children with her.
 
 00:21:45.894 --> 00:21:47.454
 And Sir John Johnson,
 
 00:21:47.555 --> 00:21:48.796
 Sir William's oldest son
 
 00:21:48.916 --> 00:21:50.837
 from his first marriage to
 
 00:21:50.857 --> 00:21:51.919
 Catherine Weisenberg,
 
 00:21:52.358 --> 00:21:53.259
 he inherits the house.
 
 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:54.520
 He moves here with his wife,
 
 00:21:55.020 --> 00:21:56.883
 Mary Polly Watts Johnson.
 
 00:21:57.782 --> 00:21:58.943
 and uh they take up
 
 00:21:58.983 --> 00:21:59.805
 residence but they're only
 
 00:21:59.865 --> 00:22:01.086
 here for about a year and a
 
 00:22:01.165 --> 00:22:02.768
 half before that that
 
 00:22:02.788 --> 00:22:04.950
 eventual confiscation uh
 
 00:22:05.069 --> 00:22:07.332
 earlier in that year and on
 
 00:22:07.451 --> 00:22:09.875
 january the hall is
 
 00:22:09.914 --> 00:22:11.115
 disarmed on orders from
 
 00:22:11.135 --> 00:22:12.136
 philip schuyler out in
 
 00:22:12.277 --> 00:22:14.278
 albany uh philip schuyler
 
 00:22:14.739 --> 00:22:18.041
 is uh really his family has been in
 
 00:22:19.317 --> 00:22:20.679
 asynchronous competition
 
 00:22:20.699 --> 00:22:21.759
 with the johnsons for a few
 
 00:22:21.798 --> 00:22:23.539
 generations in that his
 
 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:25.181
 family was a major player
 
 00:22:25.641 --> 00:22:26.361
 in terms of native
 
 00:22:26.381 --> 00:22:27.701
 diplomacy in the late
 
 00:22:27.741 --> 00:22:28.481
 seventeenth and early
 
 00:22:28.541 --> 00:22:30.042
 eighteenth century but two
 
 00:22:30.083 --> 00:22:31.384
 generations of the head of
 
 00:22:31.403 --> 00:22:32.624
 family died while their
 
 00:22:32.683 --> 00:22:34.045
 sons were their oldest sons
 
 00:22:34.085 --> 00:22:35.785
 were children including his
 
 00:22:35.826 --> 00:22:36.586
 father died when he's a
 
 00:22:36.625 --> 00:22:39.027
 very very young child um so
 
 00:22:39.106 --> 00:22:40.288
 johnson himself so william
 
 00:22:40.327 --> 00:22:41.127
 johnson really kind of
 
 00:22:41.188 --> 00:22:42.387
 stepped into the scene in
 
 00:22:42.428 --> 00:22:43.509
 that power vacuum
 
 00:22:44.506 --> 00:22:46.969
 And during the French and Indian War,
 
 00:22:47.349 --> 00:22:48.631
 he and John Bradstreet,
 
 00:22:48.711 --> 00:22:50.053
 they worked together on some projects,
 
 00:22:50.093 --> 00:22:51.795
 they work in opposition or
 
 00:22:51.815 --> 00:22:53.056
 in competition on others.
 
 00:22:53.557 --> 00:22:54.478
 Philip Schuyler is John
 
 00:22:54.498 --> 00:22:55.519
 Bradstreet's protege.
 
 00:22:56.019 --> 00:22:57.382
 Bradstreet also dies in
 
 00:22:59.256 --> 00:23:01.038
 So the stage now is cleared
 
 00:23:01.138 --> 00:23:02.240
 very abruptly and
 
 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:03.421
 unexpectedly in many ways
 
 00:23:03.862 --> 00:23:05.242
 of this prior generation.
 
 00:23:06.044 --> 00:23:07.486
 And the question becomes who
 
 00:23:07.526 --> 00:23:10.068
 is going to control native diplomacy,
 
 00:23:10.509 --> 00:23:11.430
 land speculation,
 
 00:23:11.651 --> 00:23:12.991
 all of that stuff in the valley.
 
 00:23:13.272 --> 00:23:14.733
 Schuyler goes revolutionary.
 
 00:23:15.494 --> 00:23:17.778
 The Johnsons remain as loyalists.
 
 00:23:21.309 --> 00:23:22.470
 In January of this year,
 
 00:23:22.690 --> 00:23:23.750
 reports are reaching Philip
 
 00:23:23.770 --> 00:23:24.892
 Schuyler that not only do
 
 00:23:24.912 --> 00:23:26.772
 the Johnsons have extreme
 
 00:23:27.653 --> 00:23:28.815
 levels of influence amongst
 
 00:23:28.835 --> 00:23:30.195
 the Mohawk and other Native nations,
 
 00:23:31.636 --> 00:23:33.698
 but they also have a whole
 
 00:23:33.738 --> 00:23:34.798
 bunch of weapons out here.
 
 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:38.320
 Light field pieces, chambered swivel guns,
 
 00:23:38.461 --> 00:23:39.782
 wall guns, blunderbusses,
 
 00:23:39.942 --> 00:23:40.883
 hundreds and hundreds of
 
 00:23:40.923 --> 00:23:42.064
 muskets in the trade house.
 
 00:23:42.724 --> 00:23:43.984
 They not only have those weapons,
 
 00:23:44.365 --> 00:23:46.146
 but they have loyal people
 
 00:23:46.207 --> 00:23:47.528
 who will carry them for them.
 
 00:23:48.627 --> 00:23:50.569
 Sir John may have only been
 
 00:23:50.690 --> 00:23:52.291
 here at the hall for about
 
 00:23:52.352 --> 00:23:53.633
 a year at that point,
 
 00:23:55.253 --> 00:23:56.315
 year and a half at that point,
 
 00:23:56.855 --> 00:23:58.738
 but he is building on the
 
 00:23:58.778 --> 00:24:00.239
 loyalty that his father held.
 
 00:24:00.682 --> 00:24:01.663
 from many of their tenants.
 
 00:24:01.723 --> 00:24:02.904
 A lot of Irish tenants here
 
 00:24:02.924 --> 00:24:04.586
 had personal loyalty to the family.
 
 00:24:05.646 --> 00:24:07.188
 A lot of Scottish tenants,
 
 00:24:07.228 --> 00:24:08.648
 many of them recently arrived,
 
 00:24:08.828 --> 00:24:09.669
 veterans of the French and
 
 00:24:09.689 --> 00:24:10.490
 Indian War who'd been
 
 00:24:10.549 --> 00:24:11.570
 promised land grants
 
 00:24:11.971 --> 00:24:14.353
 further up north in the colony.
 
 00:24:14.913 --> 00:24:15.794
 But those land grants hadn't
 
 00:24:15.814 --> 00:24:16.394
 been delivered on.
 
 00:24:16.433 --> 00:24:17.515
 They're getting bounced around,
 
 00:24:17.575 --> 00:24:19.817
 pulled here and there, promises, promises,
 
 00:24:19.856 --> 00:24:21.238
 promises, and nothing's being delivered.
 
 00:24:22.067 --> 00:24:23.828
 So Sir William agrees to let
 
 00:24:23.848 --> 00:24:25.108
 them settle on his estates
 
 00:24:25.128 --> 00:24:26.190
 to give them land with very
 
 00:24:26.230 --> 00:24:27.490
 favorable tenancy terms.
 
 00:24:28.009 --> 00:24:29.171
 While Philip Schuyler later
 
 00:24:29.191 --> 00:24:30.250
 will be seizing tenants'
 
 00:24:30.270 --> 00:24:31.171
 wood stoves in the middle
 
 00:24:31.211 --> 00:24:32.592
 of February as collateral
 
 00:24:32.612 --> 00:24:34.432
 against debts on medical debts,
 
 00:24:35.413 --> 00:24:37.334
 Sir William is letting many
 
 00:24:37.374 --> 00:24:38.534
 of his tenants work that
 
 00:24:38.574 --> 00:24:39.634
 land in exchange for a
 
 00:24:39.673 --> 00:24:40.654
 day's labor and two fat
 
 00:24:40.674 --> 00:24:42.154
 fowl a year until it's time
 
 00:24:42.174 --> 00:24:43.536
 for your quit rents in seven years.
 
 00:24:44.348 --> 00:24:45.709
 For a lot of tenants in the
 
 00:24:45.729 --> 00:24:47.109
 Mohawk and Hudson Valleys,
 
 00:24:47.930 --> 00:24:49.529
 your loyalty is not
 
 00:24:49.569 --> 00:24:51.830
 determined by your political ideology,
 
 00:24:52.090 --> 00:24:53.872
 but by who do you feel you can trust.
 
 00:24:54.352 --> 00:24:55.192
 And there's been a lot of
 
 00:24:55.211 --> 00:24:56.372
 conflicts with landlords,
 
 00:24:56.471 --> 00:24:57.613
 especially Dutch landlords
 
 00:24:57.732 --> 00:24:59.353
 in the Hudson Valley in the
 
 00:24:59.373 --> 00:25:00.393
 generation proceeding in
 
 00:25:00.413 --> 00:25:01.594
 the seventeen sixties.
 
 00:25:01.614 --> 00:25:03.153
 You've got Prendergast War
 
 00:25:03.554 --> 00:25:04.755
 is basically a tenant or
 
 00:25:04.795 --> 00:25:05.734
 peasant uprising.
 
 00:25:06.174 --> 00:25:07.355
 That's making many of the
 
 00:25:07.375 --> 00:25:09.518
 same arguments as the revolutionaries are,
 
 00:25:09.999 --> 00:25:11.559
 but about the revolutionary landlords,
 
 00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:12.560
 not about the crown.
 
 00:25:12.621 --> 00:25:13.741
 And that doesn't go over too
 
 00:25:13.801 --> 00:25:15.262
 well with the soon-to-be
 
 00:25:15.303 --> 00:25:17.345
 revolutionaries out there.
 
 00:25:17.365 --> 00:25:18.006
 So out here,
 
 00:25:18.727 --> 00:25:22.789
 you've got tenants who are hearing, well,
 
 00:25:22.950 --> 00:25:23.990
 they're hearing the
 
 00:25:24.010 --> 00:25:25.593
 landlords in Albany making
 
 00:25:25.633 --> 00:25:26.854
 these claims about revolution,
 
 00:25:26.894 --> 00:25:27.714
 what that's going to mean.
 
 00:25:28.634 --> 00:25:29.816
 but they're actually seeing
 
 00:25:29.836 --> 00:25:30.875
 those claims being made by
 
 00:25:30.915 --> 00:25:31.756
 people that they have very
 
 00:25:31.776 --> 00:25:32.696
 little reason to trust.
 
 00:25:33.217 --> 00:25:34.377
 So they align with the
 
 00:25:34.397 --> 00:25:35.678
 Johnsons who they have far
 
 00:25:35.718 --> 00:25:36.638
 more reason to trust.
 
 00:25:38.398 --> 00:25:42.101
 The other major factor out
 
 00:25:42.141 --> 00:25:45.182
 here is that within just
 
 00:25:45.262 --> 00:25:46.742
 weeks of Lexington and Concord,
 
 00:25:47.403 --> 00:25:48.483
 the Royal Sheriff and the
 
 00:25:48.503 --> 00:25:49.484
 Royal Justice of the Peace,
 
 00:25:50.444 --> 00:25:51.685
 Alexander White and William Biddle,
 
 00:25:52.185 --> 00:25:54.326
 they make a proclamation in Johnstown
 
 00:25:54.946 --> 00:25:56.267
 that they will, quote,
 
 00:25:56.307 --> 00:25:57.448
 secure and protect all
 
 00:25:57.488 --> 00:25:58.607
 slaves and Negroes who will
 
 00:25:58.647 --> 00:25:59.827
 resort unto us and place
 
 00:25:59.847 --> 00:26:02.028
 themselves under our protection.
 
 00:26:02.048 --> 00:26:03.189
 This is about seven months
 
 00:26:03.229 --> 00:26:03.910
 before Dunmore's
 
 00:26:03.930 --> 00:26:05.430
 proclamation in Virginia
 
 00:26:05.490 --> 00:26:07.150
 promising freedom to the
 
 00:26:07.190 --> 00:26:08.871
 enslaved who reach British lines,
 
 00:26:09.711 --> 00:26:11.192
 escaping, escaping from a rebel.
 
 00:26:11.592 --> 00:26:12.771
 And while the Johnstown
 
 00:26:12.791 --> 00:26:13.771
 proclamation is much
 
 00:26:13.912 --> 00:26:16.353
 smaller in terms of numbers of impact,
 
 00:26:17.287 --> 00:26:20.611
 It is early, it is received,
 
 00:26:21.332 --> 00:26:23.374
 and it creates a lot of
 
 00:26:23.433 --> 00:26:24.355
 consternation in
 
 00:26:24.395 --> 00:26:26.137
 revolutionary Albany with
 
 00:26:26.258 --> 00:26:29.000
 conversations arising about
 
 00:26:29.602 --> 00:26:31.564
 what threat is posed by
 
 00:26:31.624 --> 00:26:33.425
 potential enslaved uprising
 
 00:26:33.465 --> 00:26:35.368
 and rebellion in that community.
 
 00:26:36.508 --> 00:26:37.288
 Add in the fact that the
 
 00:26:37.307 --> 00:26:39.068
 Johnsons have this strong
 
 00:26:39.088 --> 00:26:40.189
 relationship with Mohawk
 
 00:26:40.229 --> 00:26:41.849
 communities and other native allies.
 
 00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:43.790
 Schuyler is sitting in Albany,
 
 00:26:43.830 --> 00:26:45.330
 seeing the possibility of
 
 00:26:45.471 --> 00:26:46.912
 Sir John Johnson being able
 
 00:26:46.932 --> 00:26:47.991
 to call on a force of
 
 00:26:48.092 --> 00:26:50.032
 several hundred Irish and
 
 00:26:50.173 --> 00:26:51.193
 Scottish tenants,
 
 00:26:51.273 --> 00:26:52.473
 many of them former soldiers,
 
 00:26:52.594 --> 00:26:54.234
 heavily armed with field pieces.
 
 00:26:56.095 --> 00:26:57.336
 A large force of Mohawk
 
 00:26:57.355 --> 00:26:59.875
 warriors and at least some
 
 00:27:00.196 --> 00:27:02.096
 size of force of formerly
 
 00:27:02.156 --> 00:27:03.837
 enslaved people of African
 
 00:27:03.857 --> 00:27:05.238
 descent who were reaching
 
 00:27:05.278 --> 00:27:06.939
 British lines out or
 
 00:27:07.199 --> 00:27:09.419
 reaching loyalist factions
 
 00:27:09.979 --> 00:27:11.539
 out here in the Mohawk Valley.
 
 00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:14.980
 So he sends close to three thousand troops,
 
 00:27:15.141 --> 00:27:16.080
 gathers a force of
 
 00:27:16.101 --> 00:27:16.721
 approximately three
 
 00:27:16.760 --> 00:27:18.281
 thousand for the disarming
 
 00:27:18.301 --> 00:27:19.321
 of the hall that January.
 
 00:27:19.442 --> 00:27:22.143
 It all it all goes down.
 
 00:27:23.222 --> 00:27:27.866
 relatively smoothly, relatively speaking.
 
 00:27:28.047 --> 00:27:30.068
 And the Hall is officially disarmed,
 
 00:27:30.669 --> 00:27:32.851
 but it doesn't remove the
 
 00:27:32.871 --> 00:27:33.951
 revolutionary concerns
 
 00:27:35.733 --> 00:27:46.762
 because it's not just six.
 
 00:27:46.782 --> 00:27:47.683
 The Third New Jersey
 
 00:27:47.723 --> 00:27:49.144
 Regiment is sent here to
 
 00:27:49.224 --> 00:27:50.125
 confiscate the Hall.
 
 00:27:52.230 --> 00:27:53.050
 And they're going to be
 
 00:27:53.090 --> 00:27:57.152
 taking Sir John into custody.
 
 00:27:57.711 --> 00:27:58.332
 He escapes,
 
 00:27:58.833 --> 00:28:00.992
 but his wife cannot follow him
 
 00:28:01.113 --> 00:28:03.054
 in his flight because she's pregnant.
 
 00:28:04.213 --> 00:28:05.595
 They have young children already.
 
 00:28:05.994 --> 00:28:06.894
 She's expecting another
 
 00:28:06.914 --> 00:28:08.256
 child that may not have
 
 00:28:08.276 --> 00:28:10.476
 been widely known at the time.
 
 00:28:13.817 --> 00:28:15.518
 When the Continental forces arrive here,
 
 00:28:15.778 --> 00:28:16.718
 they secure the hall.
 
 00:28:16.798 --> 00:28:18.739
 They stage a military parade through town.
 
 00:28:19.263 --> 00:28:20.924
 They meet with local Mohawk
 
 00:28:20.944 --> 00:28:22.665
 warriors who expect the
 
 00:28:22.705 --> 00:28:25.186
 promise that Sir John will not be harmed.
 
 00:28:26.087 --> 00:28:27.268
 They're given that promise,
 
 00:28:27.647 --> 00:28:29.950
 but the diplomacy takes time.
 
 00:28:30.390 --> 00:28:31.510
 And part of that time is
 
 00:28:31.570 --> 00:28:33.971
 what enables Sir John to escape.
 
 00:28:35.214 --> 00:28:35.715
 At first,
 
 00:28:35.776 --> 00:28:36.836
 Lady Johnson was going to be
 
 00:28:36.855 --> 00:28:38.297
 allowed to remain in the hall,
 
 00:28:38.938 --> 00:28:40.318
 but Revolutionary Command
 
 00:28:40.338 --> 00:28:41.240
 changes their mind.
 
 00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:43.760
 Schuyler in particular wants
 
 00:28:43.780 --> 00:28:45.362
 her sent out to Albany,
 
 00:28:46.083 --> 00:28:48.104
 where she should be held
 
 00:28:48.223 --> 00:28:49.164
 under house arrest.
 
 00:28:49.806 --> 00:28:51.086
 Interestingly, while out there,
 
 00:28:51.126 --> 00:28:52.728
 she also seems collecting
 
 00:28:52.768 --> 00:28:53.949
 military intelligence and
 
 00:28:53.989 --> 00:28:56.269
 passing it along to Daniel Klaus,
 
 00:28:56.609 --> 00:28:58.912
 to some native allies and family members.
 
 00:29:00.373 --> 00:29:02.894
 So really doing a lot of unexpected work,
 
 00:29:03.476 --> 00:29:04.135
 I think that was able to
 
 00:29:04.175 --> 00:29:06.317
 happen because everybody
 
 00:29:06.337 --> 00:29:06.978
 assumed that she's
 
 00:29:07.058 --> 00:29:08.359
 uninvolved and noncombatant.
 
 00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:09.641
 Nobody's really sure what to
 
 00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:10.741
 do with her either.
 
 00:29:11.362 --> 00:29:15.065
 Meanwhile, was able to escape to Canada.
 
 00:29:15.545 --> 00:29:16.625
 And then eventually when
 
 00:29:16.645 --> 00:29:17.946
 he's down in New York City,
 
 00:29:18.508 --> 00:29:19.509
 in the middle of a blizzard,
 
 00:29:19.548 --> 00:29:20.630
 she's able to escape
 
 00:29:20.670 --> 00:29:22.131
 seventy miles over land to
 
 00:29:22.171 --> 00:29:23.852
 rejoin him in New York
 
 00:29:23.872 --> 00:29:25.133
 behind British lines there.
 
 00:29:25.153 --> 00:29:27.154
 That's amazing.
 
 00:29:27.807 --> 00:29:29.048
 We're talking with Ian Mumpton,
 
 00:29:29.068 --> 00:29:30.151
 the Interpretive Programs
 
 00:29:30.191 --> 00:29:31.632
 Assistant at Johnson Hole
 
 00:29:31.672 --> 00:29:33.433
 State Historic Site in Johnstown,
 
 00:29:33.493 --> 00:29:33.894
 New York.
 
 00:29:34.714 --> 00:29:37.478
 And you have plans actually
 
 00:29:37.557 --> 00:29:39.900
 to reenact the seizure of
 
 00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:41.801
 the hole next year on the
 
 00:29:41.842 --> 00:29:43.263
 two hundred fiftieth anniversary.
 
 00:29:43.284 --> 00:29:44.244
 Can we talk a little bit
 
 00:29:44.265 --> 00:29:45.806
 about what's going to
 
 00:29:45.826 --> 00:29:47.247
 happen then and what people
 
 00:29:47.267 --> 00:29:48.808
 will see when they come to the hole,
 
 00:29:48.868 --> 00:29:49.549
 not only for that,
 
 00:29:49.589 --> 00:29:50.730
 but for other programs?
 
 00:30:04.829 --> 00:30:09.513
 Oh, absolutely.
 
 00:30:09.534 --> 00:30:12.037
 Talk about that.
 
 00:30:12.096 --> 00:30:13.157
 So we are gearing up for
 
 00:30:13.198 --> 00:30:13.718
 that two hundred and
 
 00:30:13.738 --> 00:30:15.299
 fiftieth commemoration of
 
 00:30:15.339 --> 00:30:16.201
 the confiscation.
 
 00:30:17.662 --> 00:30:18.423
 So that's in May.
 
 00:30:18.502 --> 00:30:21.464
 I think I may have accidentally said July.
 
 00:30:21.484 --> 00:30:22.686
 I had July on my mind for
 
 00:30:22.727 --> 00:30:23.467
 something else earlier.
 
 00:30:23.827 --> 00:30:25.368
 So May of twenty twenty six,
 
 00:30:25.689 --> 00:30:26.349
 May sixteenth and
 
 00:30:26.390 --> 00:30:28.231
 seventeenth will be the
 
 00:30:28.271 --> 00:30:29.212
 event weekend here.
 
 00:30:30.113 --> 00:30:33.295
 And when we recreate that
 
 00:30:33.994 --> 00:30:34.996
 really building our
 
 00:30:35.296 --> 00:30:36.957
 committee for everybody
 
 00:30:36.977 --> 00:30:38.038
 who's going to be involved in that,
 
 00:30:38.498 --> 00:30:39.598
 but a large role is going
 
 00:30:39.638 --> 00:30:40.519
 to be being carried by the
 
 00:30:40.538 --> 00:30:42.220
 recreated Third New Jersey Regiment.
 
 00:30:43.441 --> 00:30:45.342
 So when we stage that
 
 00:30:45.382 --> 00:30:46.603
 recreation of the confiscation,
 
 00:30:47.284 --> 00:30:50.244
 There's going to be officers
 
 00:30:50.285 --> 00:30:51.065
 from the Third New Jersey
 
 00:30:51.105 --> 00:30:52.625
 will meet with somebody
 
 00:30:52.645 --> 00:30:53.685
 portraying Lady Johnson.
 
 00:30:54.165 --> 00:30:55.226
 There will be the discussion
 
 00:30:55.246 --> 00:30:55.946
 around the fact that she
 
 00:30:55.967 --> 00:30:57.346
 will not be remaining at the hall.
 
 00:30:58.067 --> 00:30:59.288
 We're hoping to have her actually,
 
 00:30:59.567 --> 00:31:00.768
 if all goes according to plan,
 
 00:31:00.928 --> 00:31:01.567
 knocking on wood,
 
 00:31:01.928 --> 00:31:02.749
 have her actually be able
 
 00:31:02.769 --> 00:31:04.888
 to leave the hall in a
 
 00:31:04.929 --> 00:31:06.329
 carriage with a baggage wagon.
 
 00:31:07.170 --> 00:31:09.089
 And after that,
 
 00:31:09.151 --> 00:31:10.490
 reenactors will be in the hall.
 
 00:31:11.909 --> 00:31:12.990
 Wrecking up the place to put
 
 00:31:13.030 --> 00:31:13.992
 no final point on it.
 
 00:31:14.334 --> 00:31:16.557
 We've got descriptions of smashed locks,
 
 00:31:16.618 --> 00:31:19.022
 broken boxes, broken glassware, bottles,
 
 00:31:19.503 --> 00:31:21.107
 letters strewn about the place.
 
 00:31:21.795 --> 00:31:22.875
 So we're working right now
 
 00:31:22.914 --> 00:31:24.715
 to recreate those elements
 
 00:31:25.096 --> 00:31:26.017
 so that they can partially
 
 00:31:26.057 --> 00:31:27.876
 be set out to stage the scene,
 
 00:31:28.298 --> 00:31:29.758
 but also so that some of
 
 00:31:29.778 --> 00:31:30.657
 them will be able to be
 
 00:31:31.278 --> 00:31:33.019
 actively broken by
 
 00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:34.400
 interpreters and reenactors
 
 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:35.921
 during the event to really
 
 00:31:35.941 --> 00:31:37.221
 kind of give that full
 
 00:31:37.300 --> 00:31:39.882
 sense of what happens
 
 00:31:40.021 --> 00:31:41.323
 immediately after the
 
 00:31:41.343 --> 00:31:43.943
 departure of the Johnson family.
 
 00:31:45.768 --> 00:31:48.089
 So we're really looking forward to that.
 
 00:31:48.609 --> 00:31:51.011
 It's going to be one part living history,
 
 00:31:51.152 --> 00:31:54.173
 one part opportunities to
 
 00:31:54.394 --> 00:31:55.694
 tour the house to see the
 
 00:31:55.835 --> 00:31:56.875
 aftermath of the raid.
 
 00:31:57.895 --> 00:31:59.497
 Lining up some folks will be
 
 00:31:59.576 --> 00:32:01.759
 speaking on local Loyalist history.
 
 00:32:02.318 --> 00:32:06.104
 Because we are, especially in our agency,
 
 00:32:06.124 --> 00:32:08.105
 we're part of the New York
 
 00:32:08.125 --> 00:32:09.548
 State Office of Parks, Recreation,
 
 00:32:09.567 --> 00:32:10.910
 and Historic Preservation.
 
 00:32:11.470 --> 00:32:13.031
 There aren't a lot of other
 
 00:32:13.573 --> 00:32:15.295
 specifically loyalist sites
 
 00:32:15.634 --> 00:32:16.797
 in our agency.
 
 00:32:19.083 --> 00:32:19.702
 Manor Hall.
 
 00:32:20.804 --> 00:32:21.744
 We work with them regularly.
 
 00:32:21.765 --> 00:32:23.886
 Fort Ontario is a Loyalist refugee center.
 
 00:32:24.247 --> 00:32:26.388
 Many of the Johnsons actually, Guy Johnson,
 
 00:32:26.409 --> 00:32:26.868
 for instance,
 
 00:32:27.209 --> 00:32:28.590
 passes through Fort Ontario
 
 00:32:28.631 --> 00:32:29.530
 during his flight in
 
 00:32:29.570 --> 00:32:30.692
 seventeen seventy five.
 
 00:32:32.374 --> 00:32:33.654
 And many of our other sister
 
 00:32:33.714 --> 00:32:35.016
 sites have have Loyalist
 
 00:32:35.355 --> 00:32:36.517
 associated history,
 
 00:32:37.238 --> 00:32:38.578
 but especially gearing up
 
 00:32:38.638 --> 00:32:40.299
 for America to fifty in the
 
 00:32:40.339 --> 00:32:41.381
 Revolution to fifty.
 
 00:32:42.281 --> 00:32:43.103
 a lot of our visitors are
 
 00:32:43.143 --> 00:32:45.164
 coming here hearing loyalist narratives,
 
 00:32:45.224 --> 00:32:46.184
 loyalist perspectives,
 
 00:32:46.425 --> 00:32:47.405
 and being really surprised,
 
 00:32:47.487 --> 00:32:49.147
 really engaging with those stories.
 
 00:32:49.688 --> 00:32:51.910
 So we want to provide that
 
 00:32:51.950 --> 00:32:52.871
 on a day-to-day basis,
 
 00:32:52.931 --> 00:32:54.031
 but also this event,
 
 00:32:54.412 --> 00:32:55.733
 it's a big opportunity to
 
 00:32:55.894 --> 00:32:58.296
 really emphasize a part of
 
 00:32:58.316 --> 00:32:59.817
 the conflict and stories
 
 00:32:59.876 --> 00:33:02.659
 that don't always share the
 
 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.821
 limelight with the way that
 
 00:33:05.842 --> 00:33:07.763
 we often discuss this time period.
 
 00:33:11.934 --> 00:33:12.575
 One of the other things
 
 00:33:12.734 --> 00:33:19.700
 we're looking to about the
 
 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:20.621
 folks enslaved here,
 
 00:33:20.661 --> 00:33:23.182
 we have evidence that Mr. Frank,
 
 00:33:23.202 --> 00:33:23.682
 the butler,
 
 00:33:25.003 --> 00:33:26.105
 he is the only person enslaved
 
 00:33:26.125 --> 00:33:26.805
 here who has time,
 
 00:33:27.085 --> 00:33:29.166
 who has allotted time to do outside work.
 
 00:33:29.186 --> 00:33:29.946
 So he grows corn,
 
 00:33:29.987 --> 00:33:31.407
 sells corn at the trade
 
 00:33:31.428 --> 00:33:33.249
 house and uses it to buy social items,
 
 00:33:33.930 --> 00:33:35.951
 including like a punch bowl
 
 00:33:36.090 --> 00:33:38.333
 and rum and things like that.
 
 00:33:40.111 --> 00:33:41.813
 for that social ritual of
 
 00:33:41.873 --> 00:33:42.873
 passing the punch bowl
 
 00:33:43.814 --> 00:33:46.497
 amongst the people that he supervised.
 
 00:33:48.137 --> 00:33:50.799
 Building and maintaining a
 
 00:33:50.840 --> 00:33:51.981
 community amongst these
 
 00:33:52.001 --> 00:33:52.922
 folks who did not choose to
 
 00:33:52.961 --> 00:33:54.463
 be part of this community over here,
 
 00:33:54.503 --> 00:33:55.044
 nonetheless.
 
 00:33:56.404 --> 00:33:59.989
 For the year, and the commemoration,
 
 00:34:00.469 --> 00:34:01.150
 one of the questions is,
 
 00:34:01.369 --> 00:34:02.490
 what happens to that community?
 
 00:34:03.391 --> 00:34:04.090
 know that some of those
 
 00:34:04.111 --> 00:34:05.852
 individuals had been
 
 00:34:05.951 --> 00:34:07.472
 inherited and taken by by
 
 00:34:07.512 --> 00:34:09.333
 molly uh jenny and juba
 
 00:34:09.373 --> 00:34:11.175
 fundy two sisters purchased
 
 00:34:11.215 --> 00:34:13.295
 here uh before as children
 
 00:34:13.876 --> 00:34:15.137
 as caregivers for the for
 
 00:34:15.157 --> 00:34:17.818
 the johnson's kids um man
 
 00:34:17.838 --> 00:34:19.278
 named abraham johnston uh
 
 00:34:19.318 --> 00:34:20.699
 is mentioned as enslaved in
 
 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:22.280
 her household in canada so
 
 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:22.981
 some of them had already
 
 00:34:23.021 --> 00:34:24.221
 left but other people still
 
 00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:26.141
 enslaved here we're trying
 
 00:34:26.161 --> 00:34:27.202
 to find where they
 
 00:34:29.605 --> 00:34:31.945
 go to some leave with lady
 
 00:34:31.985 --> 00:34:34.306
 johnson are some taken by
 
 00:34:34.427 --> 00:34:36.047
 other officers here are
 
 00:34:36.128 --> 00:34:37.487
 others staying at the hall
 
 00:34:37.608 --> 00:34:39.809
 until the hall property is
 
 00:34:39.969 --> 00:34:41.449
 auctioned off later in the
 
 00:34:41.489 --> 00:34:42.891
 conflict are they here
 
 00:34:42.931 --> 00:34:43.791
 until the end of the war
 
 00:34:43.811 --> 00:34:45.452
 when the estate is sold a
 
 00:34:45.512 --> 00:34:46.452
 lot of a lot of questions
 
 00:34:46.472 --> 00:34:47.492
 still remain there but
 
 00:34:48.032 --> 00:34:48.693
 that's one of the things
 
 00:34:48.713 --> 00:34:49.672
 that I'm hoping to have at
 
 00:34:49.693 --> 00:34:51.313
 least some answers to to be
 
 00:34:51.333 --> 00:34:52.434
 able to to talk a bit more
 
 00:34:52.454 --> 00:34:53.655
 about at the event next
 
 00:34:53.675 --> 00:34:54.355
 year too because this
 
 00:34:54.394 --> 00:34:57.717
 really was a a breaking of community
 
 00:34:58.757 --> 00:35:00.539
 of many communities in many
 
 00:35:00.579 --> 00:35:03.661
 different ways in that year.
 
 00:35:03.681 --> 00:35:08.144
 And Molly Brandt, she goes to Canada.
 
 00:35:08.164 --> 00:35:09.246
 She actually has appeared on
 
 00:35:09.327 --> 00:35:11.007
 Canadian postage stamps.
 
 00:35:12.148 --> 00:35:13.250
 And in Ontario,
 
 00:35:13.269 --> 00:35:15.152
 when they began reviving
 
 00:35:15.172 --> 00:35:16.253
 the Mohawk religion,
 
 00:35:16.313 --> 00:35:17.233
 it was partly because
 
 00:35:17.253 --> 00:35:18.534
 William Johnson had written
 
 00:35:19.335 --> 00:35:20.996
 down the rituals they had used.
 
 00:35:21.016 --> 00:35:22.277
 They were able to recreate
 
 00:35:22.297 --> 00:35:24.199
 them based on his memory.
 
 00:35:24.730 --> 00:35:26.990
 So I'm wondering then what
 
 00:35:27.030 --> 00:35:28.911
 happens to Molly after she
 
 00:35:28.972 --> 00:35:32.793
 goes up to Canada?
 
 00:35:32.833 --> 00:35:35.016
 So I need to read a good bit
 
 00:35:35.036 --> 00:35:36.155
 more on the kind of the
 
 00:35:36.195 --> 00:35:38.016
 last years of her life.
 
 00:35:38.237 --> 00:35:39.358
 I'm familiar with kind of
 
 00:35:39.378 --> 00:35:40.277
 the broad strokes there,
 
 00:35:40.297 --> 00:35:40.858
 but there's some folks
 
 00:35:40.878 --> 00:35:42.059
 who've done much better
 
 00:35:42.099 --> 00:35:43.719
 research on that than I have.
 
 00:35:45.201 --> 00:35:46.842
 But part of her story that
 
 00:35:46.862 --> 00:35:49.023
 really most interests me is
 
 00:35:49.262 --> 00:35:51.384
 her time during the early
 
 00:35:51.423 --> 00:35:52.545
 years of the Revolution
 
 00:35:53.114 --> 00:35:54.916
 when she's out near Kananjoharie,
 
 00:35:54.976 --> 00:35:56.958
 out further in the Mohawk Valley,
 
 00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:00.260
 and balancing the various
 
 00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:01.702
 expectations on her and
 
 00:36:01.722 --> 00:36:03.043
 that she has for herself.
 
 00:36:03.503 --> 00:36:05.525
 She is a person of status
 
 00:36:05.625 --> 00:36:07.246
 and influence in all of the
 
 00:36:07.266 --> 00:36:08.108
 communities and cultural
 
 00:36:08.128 --> 00:36:09.027
 groups out this way.
 
 00:36:10.469 --> 00:36:12.690
 She is also somebody who was
 
 00:36:13.072 --> 00:36:14.873
 personally connected to
 
 00:36:14.932 --> 00:36:16.614
 folks on both sides of the conflict.
 
 00:36:16.994 --> 00:36:17.614
 There's been a lot of
 
 00:36:17.635 --> 00:36:19.197
 conversation about her loyalist,
 
 00:36:19.717 --> 00:36:22.139
 relatives um and about her
 
 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:24.221
 her mohawk family who are
 
 00:36:24.461 --> 00:36:25.922
 not loyalists they're
 
 00:36:25.963 --> 00:36:26.943
 they're sovereign in their
 
 00:36:27.023 --> 00:36:27.985
 own right joseph brand
 
 00:36:28.005 --> 00:36:29.246
 makes that very clear when
 
 00:36:29.266 --> 00:36:30.487
 he when he travels to
 
 00:36:30.608 --> 00:36:32.268
 england uh meets with king
 
 00:36:32.289 --> 00:36:33.190
 george reminding him that
 
 00:36:33.230 --> 00:36:34.731
 you know the mohawk that he
 
 00:36:34.771 --> 00:36:37.173
 is that he has an ally but
 
 00:36:37.594 --> 00:36:38.956
 that in a family like the
 
 00:36:38.976 --> 00:36:40.237
 johnsons the line between
 
 00:36:40.836 --> 00:36:42.038
 sovereign and loyalist
 
 00:36:42.798 --> 00:36:45.380
 blends together in many ways.
 
 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:46.981
 But she's also connected to
 
 00:36:47.001 --> 00:36:48.382
 people who rebelled.
 
 00:36:48.742 --> 00:36:50.123
 Nicholas Herkimer, for instance,
 
 00:36:50.663 --> 00:36:52.204
 was a Masonic Lodge brother
 
 00:36:52.563 --> 00:36:53.204
 of Sir William.
 
 00:36:54.204 --> 00:36:55.405
 As a Masonic Lodge brother,
 
 00:36:55.465 --> 00:36:57.226
 he was expected to provide
 
 00:36:57.367 --> 00:36:58.827
 and provide support and
 
 00:36:58.867 --> 00:37:01.268
 maintenance for his fellow Lodge brothers,
 
 00:37:01.969 --> 00:37:02.829
 widows and orphans.
 
 00:37:04.076 --> 00:37:06.317
 And so they do maintain
 
 00:37:06.356 --> 00:37:07.918
 correspondence during the conflict,
 
 00:37:08.777 --> 00:37:11.079
 but he does very little to protect her.
 
 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:12.059
 They're on opposite sides of
 
 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:12.980
 the conflict there.
 
 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:14.521
 He does very little to protect her.
 
 00:37:14.701 --> 00:37:16.242
 The best he really does is say,
 
 00:37:16.842 --> 00:37:18.043
 if the committee comes to
 
 00:37:18.463 --> 00:37:19.244
 search your house again,
 
 00:37:19.324 --> 00:37:21.123
 I can't be sure of what's
 
 00:37:21.143 --> 00:37:21.885
 going to happen.
 
 00:37:22.244 --> 00:37:23.786
 You might want to just get out of Dodge.
 
 00:37:25.447 --> 00:37:27.246
 And there's descriptions of
 
 00:37:27.728 --> 00:37:30.789
 revolutionary patrols coming to her home.
 
 00:37:30.989 --> 00:37:31.248
 You know,
 
 00:37:31.289 --> 00:37:32.570
 her children give deposition
 
 00:37:32.610 --> 00:37:34.010
 later saying that they come
 
 00:37:34.030 --> 00:37:35.731
 to the home searching for Captain Brandt,
 
 00:37:35.751 --> 00:37:36.871
 for her brother, Joseph Brandt,
 
 00:37:37.271 --> 00:37:38.512
 tearing open the bed curtains,
 
 00:37:38.552 --> 00:37:39.932
 terrifying the children in the night.
 
 00:37:40.532 --> 00:37:41.914
 That's not a situation that
 
 00:37:41.934 --> 00:37:43.815
 she feels safe remaining in.
 
 00:37:45.255 --> 00:37:46.956
 So that combined with the
 
 00:37:46.976 --> 00:37:48.016
 fact that she's passing
 
 00:37:48.217 --> 00:37:50.938
 intelligence and diplomacy or diplomatic,
 
 00:37:51.157 --> 00:37:53.119
 diplomatic intel and military intel.
 
 00:37:53.945 --> 00:37:54.766
 uh, to, uh,
 
 00:37:55.186 --> 00:37:57.367
 to Loyalists and to Native communities in,
 
 00:37:57.407 --> 00:37:58.007
 during the seventeen
 
 00:37:58.047 --> 00:37:59.148
 seventy-seven campaign
 
 00:37:59.188 --> 00:38:00.568
 prior to the Battle of Oriskany,
 
 00:38:01.588 --> 00:38:03.510
 it's really not a safe place for her to,
 
 00:38:03.530 --> 00:38:04.230
 uh, to, uh,
 
 00:38:04.791 --> 00:38:06.690
 so she ends up moving further out.
 
 00:38:06.710 --> 00:38:07.731
 She ends up at Niagara.
 
 00:38:08.248 --> 00:38:10.088
 ultimately in Canada.
 
 00:38:11.210 --> 00:38:15.371
 And I was reading in another
 
 00:38:15.391 --> 00:38:17.833
 source that she was offered,
 
 00:38:18.614 --> 00:38:19.574
 basically offered an
 
 00:38:19.594 --> 00:38:20.835
 opportunity to return to
 
 00:38:20.876 --> 00:38:22.597
 New York following the revolution with,
 
 00:38:22.976 --> 00:38:24.458
 you know, financial compensation.
 
 00:38:25.418 --> 00:38:26.398
 and turns that down,
 
 00:38:26.438 --> 00:38:27.860
 but that really emphasizes
 
 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:28.820
 the fact that her
 
 00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:30.943
 importance does not diminish,
 
 00:38:30.963 --> 00:38:32.443
 her influence does not diminish.
 
 00:38:32.965 --> 00:38:35.306
 It's one that is seen both
 
 00:38:35.367 --> 00:38:38.550
 by her allies and by her
 
 00:38:38.610 --> 00:38:39.510
 adversaries during the
 
 00:38:39.550 --> 00:38:40.751
 conflict and in the years
 
 00:38:40.931 --> 00:38:43.733
 of attempted rebuilding, land seizure,
 
 00:38:43.793 --> 00:38:45.394
 expansion,
 
 00:38:45.454 --> 00:38:47.577
 those chaotic post-revolutionary years,
 
 00:38:48.057 --> 00:38:50.378
 she's seen as somebody who
 
 00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.760
 could exercise a desirable influence.
 
 00:38:53.742 --> 00:38:54.922
 from both sides every
 
 00:38:55.023 --> 00:38:56.784
 everybody wants her to be
 
 00:38:57.324 --> 00:38:59.284
 working with them uh rather
 
 00:38:59.304 --> 00:39:00.346
 than than against them
 
 00:39:00.385 --> 00:39:01.507
 which which again just
 
 00:39:01.527 --> 00:39:02.827
 speaks to her to her
 
 00:39:02.867 --> 00:39:04.748
 influence and power even in
 
 00:39:04.768 --> 00:39:07.090
 the span after she's been
 
 00:39:07.170 --> 00:39:08.311
 forced out of her home
 
 00:39:08.610 --> 00:39:10.172
 multiple times multiple
 
 00:39:10.211 --> 00:39:11.311
 homes being pushed further
 
 00:39:11.331 --> 00:39:13.032
 and further but on that
 
 00:39:13.052 --> 00:39:13.713
 note of you know being
 
 00:39:13.753 --> 00:39:14.693
 forced out of her home she
 
 00:39:14.713 --> 00:39:15.974
 does make a home
 
 00:39:16.461 --> 00:39:17.382
 wherever she goes.
 
 00:39:17.802 --> 00:39:20.005
 She is accustomed to living
 
 00:39:20.525 --> 00:39:21.646
 in a certain style,
 
 00:39:22.346 --> 00:39:24.228
 and it's a combination of
 
 00:39:24.507 --> 00:39:26.510
 Mohawk and European clothing,
 
 00:39:27.010 --> 00:39:29.172
 from leggings and wrap
 
 00:39:29.192 --> 00:39:34.536
 skirts of velvet to silk gowns,
 
 00:39:34.996 --> 00:39:35.717
 but she also
 
 00:39:36.804 --> 00:39:37.724
 expect, you know,
 
 00:39:38.625 --> 00:39:41.045
 is expecting to be able to
 
 00:39:41.226 --> 00:39:44.007
 provide a sense of home for her children,
 
 00:39:44.067 --> 00:39:45.668
 for her family, wherever she goes,
 
 00:39:45.728 --> 00:39:46.827
 because she is a diplomat,
 
 00:39:46.847 --> 00:39:47.969
 she is a political figure,
 
 00:39:48.329 --> 00:39:49.648
 she is an intelligence sharer,
 
 00:39:50.230 --> 00:39:51.130
 but she's also a mother.
 
 00:39:52.130 --> 00:39:54.190
 And so that she actually has
 
 00:39:54.231 --> 00:39:55.291
 the British army build her
 
 00:39:55.311 --> 00:39:56.411
 a home and establish a
 
 00:39:56.452 --> 00:39:57.753
 garden for her everywhere
 
 00:39:57.773 --> 00:39:59.432
 that she ends up living out
 
 00:39:59.474 --> 00:40:00.534
 from that point forward.
 
 00:40:01.253 --> 00:40:02.514
 which again ties back into
 
 00:40:02.795 --> 00:40:04.096
 telling the stories of the enslaved.
 
 00:40:04.155 --> 00:40:05.717
 We find out about Abraham
 
 00:40:05.757 --> 00:40:07.059
 Johnston there in the
 
 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:08.440
 household as the only man
 
 00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:09.121
 enslaved in the house.
 
 00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:11.342
 I think he's likely one of the gardeners.
 
 00:40:11.762 --> 00:40:12.923
 There's a man named Abraham
 
 00:40:13.224 --> 00:40:14.445
 purchased here and
 
 00:40:14.545 --> 00:40:15.766
 outfitted with clothing for
 
 00:40:15.846 --> 00:40:17.047
 working outdoors.
 
 00:40:17.148 --> 00:40:19.268
 So any one of these threads
 
 00:40:19.289 --> 00:40:20.710
 that we choose to look at,
 
 00:40:21.010 --> 00:40:21.791
 Molly as a mother,
 
 00:40:21.831 --> 00:40:23.072
 Molly as a political figure,
 
 00:40:23.713 --> 00:40:24.974
 The stories of exile,
 
 00:40:25.014 --> 00:40:25.773
 stories of enslavement,
 
 00:40:25.793 --> 00:40:28.076
 stories of the war, battle of Riskeny,
 
 00:40:28.615 --> 00:40:30.996
 they all tie into this fantastic,
 
 00:40:31.197 --> 00:40:34.179
 fascinating web.
 
 00:40:34.219 --> 00:40:35.960
 We've been talking with Ian Mumpton,
 
 00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.001
 the Interpretive Programs
 
 00:40:37.061 --> 00:40:38.382
 Assistant at Johnson Hall
 
 00:40:38.402 --> 00:40:40.443
 State Historic Site in Johnstown,
 
 00:40:40.463 --> 00:40:40.782
 New York.
 
 00:40:41.563 --> 00:40:42.384
 We could go on all day.
 
 00:40:42.423 --> 00:40:45.146
 I mean, Johnson, it's a fascinating place.
 
 00:40:46.126 --> 00:40:47.146
 Why don't you just tell us
 
 00:40:47.306 --> 00:40:48.688
 more about what we should
 
 00:40:48.728 --> 00:40:50.048
 do if we want to come visit
 
 00:40:50.329 --> 00:40:51.949
 and then tell us what you're
 
 00:40:52.759 --> 00:40:54.579
 favorite thing you found out
 
 00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:55.840
 about the place I mean you
 
 00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:57.101
 came over from schuyler's
 
 00:40:57.141 --> 00:40:58.302
 place and now it seems like
 
 00:40:58.322 --> 00:41:00.202
 you're on the other side um
 
 00:41:00.983 --> 00:41:01.902
 but what's the thing that
 
 00:41:01.922 --> 00:41:02.844
 most excites you about
 
 00:41:02.903 --> 00:41:06.125
 johnson hall just an
 
 00:41:06.244 --> 00:41:07.766
 incognito loyalist there as
 
 00:41:07.806 --> 00:41:09.166
 far as visiting uh johnson
 
 00:41:09.226 --> 00:41:10.626
 hall we are open through
 
 00:41:10.646 --> 00:41:12.907
 the middle of october um uh
 
 00:41:13.148 --> 00:41:14.128
 and I think is that uh
 
 00:41:14.409 --> 00:41:15.210
 sunday of columbus day
 
 00:41:15.250 --> 00:41:16.710
 weekend there is is our
 
 00:41:16.750 --> 00:41:20.092
 last open day of the season
 
 00:41:23.382 --> 00:41:25.704
 So Sunday for tours of the house,
 
 00:41:26.603 --> 00:41:28.405
 tours run on the hour.
 
 00:41:28.465 --> 00:41:30.166
 Most days they start at ten,
 
 00:41:30.525 --> 00:41:31.306
 run on the hour with the
 
 00:41:31.326 --> 00:41:32.626
 last one starting at three.
 
 00:41:33.106 --> 00:41:33.907
 On Sundays,
 
 00:41:33.967 --> 00:41:34.927
 because we're doing historic
 
 00:41:34.947 --> 00:41:37.429
 housekeeping and cleaning and
 
 00:41:41.074 --> 00:41:42.393
 and conservation work and everything.
 
 00:41:43.275 --> 00:41:44.835
 But we also have a number of
 
 00:41:45.235 --> 00:41:46.697
 programs and events in the
 
 00:41:46.856 --> 00:41:49.159
 off season coming up on
 
 00:41:49.378 --> 00:41:50.679
 actually this Thursday,
 
 00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:52.360
 the eleventh at six p.m.
 
 00:41:53.061 --> 00:41:54.561
 Travis Bowman and Matthew
 
 00:41:54.601 --> 00:41:55.742
 Zembo are going to be
 
 00:41:55.782 --> 00:41:57.603
 presenting on their new book,
 
 00:41:57.664 --> 00:41:58.625
 Clearing Iroquoia.
 
 00:41:59.378 --> 00:42:00.818
 which is really about the
 
 00:42:00.898 --> 00:42:02.599
 buildup and execution of
 
 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:04.239
 the Sullivan campaign.
 
 00:42:04.460 --> 00:42:05.280
 While it happens just
 
 00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:07.300
 outside of our time period
 
 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:08.940
 of core interpretation,
 
 00:42:09.541 --> 00:42:13.342
 just after the Johnsons are gone,
 
 00:42:13.463 --> 00:42:15.224
 it's a topic deeply tied to
 
 00:42:15.603 --> 00:42:17.463
 native diplomacy, military activity,
 
 00:42:17.523 --> 00:42:20.465
 land sovereignty, and really, I would say,
 
 00:42:20.505 --> 00:42:25.286
 represents the final breaking point
 
 00:42:25.795 --> 00:42:27.876
 of the diplomatic relations
 
 00:42:27.916 --> 00:42:28.817
 that Sir William had been
 
 00:42:28.856 --> 00:42:30.958
 establishing in the Mohawk
 
 00:42:30.998 --> 00:42:33.360
 Valley in a very dramatic way.
 
 00:42:34.101 --> 00:42:35.481
 So fascinating book.
 
 00:42:36.001 --> 00:42:37.342
 Anybody who's in the area or
 
 00:42:37.362 --> 00:42:39.505
 feels like being in the area, free event,
 
 00:42:39.605 --> 00:42:40.164
 six o'clock.
 
 00:42:40.204 --> 00:42:40.965
 It's going to be great.
 
 00:42:42.047 --> 00:42:42.746
 In October,
 
 00:42:42.806 --> 00:42:46.949
 we've got a program called Memento Mori,
 
 00:42:47.070 --> 00:42:48.471
 Colonial Tales of the Macabre,
 
 00:42:48.931 --> 00:42:50.271
 which delves into some of
 
 00:42:50.371 --> 00:42:52.574
 the different cultural storytelling of
 
 00:42:53.032 --> 00:42:54.733
 tales of ghosts, the restless dead,
 
 00:42:54.813 --> 00:42:56.414
 cannibalism, all sorts of gruesome,
 
 00:42:56.454 --> 00:42:59.077
 gory stuff that colonial
 
 00:42:59.157 --> 00:43:00.077
 Europeans would have been
 
 00:43:00.117 --> 00:43:02.760
 bringing with them from their homeland.
 
 00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:04.201
 So what are some of those,
 
 00:43:05.262 --> 00:43:05.922
 what do they consider
 
 00:43:06.023 --> 00:43:07.224
 spooky things that go bump
 
 00:43:07.244 --> 00:43:08.445
 in the night that are
 
 00:43:08.465 --> 00:43:09.125
 stories they're bringing
 
 00:43:09.204 --> 00:43:10.927
 over here to the Mohawk Valley?
 
 00:43:11.126 --> 00:43:12.847
 Campbell Higgle, amazing storyteller,
 
 00:43:13.307 --> 00:43:14.570
 is going to be here for that one.
 
 00:43:14.590 --> 00:43:15.831
 That one's by pre-reservation,
 
 00:43:15.871 --> 00:43:17.871
 but just give us a call and
 
 00:43:18.293 --> 00:43:19.554
 we can get you signed up.
 
 00:43:21.313 --> 00:43:23.856
 Our big push in the off
 
 00:43:23.876 --> 00:43:24.737
 season as well right now is
 
 00:43:24.757 --> 00:43:26.217
 a lot of outreach programs.
 
 00:43:26.278 --> 00:43:28.000
 We're on the road constantly.
 
 00:43:28.141 --> 00:43:29.081
 We started out with about an
 
 00:43:29.181 --> 00:43:30.844
 hour radius for our outreach.
 
 00:43:31.605 --> 00:43:32.204
 At this point,
 
 00:43:32.284 --> 00:43:34.987
 we are trying as much as
 
 00:43:35.048 --> 00:43:36.469
 possible to make it a point
 
 00:43:36.489 --> 00:43:38.371
 of if we can get there and back in a day,
 
 00:43:39.273 --> 00:43:40.635
 we are happy to bring our
 
 00:43:40.675 --> 00:43:41.476
 programs on out.
 
 00:43:42.128 --> 00:43:43.730
 And in order to make our
 
 00:43:43.769 --> 00:43:45.110
 outreach programs more
 
 00:43:45.291 --> 00:43:46.492
 available to schools,
 
 00:43:47.032 --> 00:43:48.414
 we are not charging for
 
 00:43:48.474 --> 00:43:50.416
 school field trips or for
 
 00:43:50.536 --> 00:43:51.356
 outreach programs to
 
 00:43:51.396 --> 00:43:53.018
 schools and educational organizations.
 
 00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:54.099
 Great.
 
 00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:55.161
 So we've got a program on
 
 00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:56.262
 the trade bill and one on
 
 00:43:56.282 --> 00:43:57.143
 the material culture of the
 
 00:43:57.163 --> 00:43:58.204
 enslaved that we both have.
 
 00:43:58.704 --> 00:43:59.585
 We have both of those on the
 
 00:43:59.626 --> 00:44:01.266
 road constantly right now.
 
 00:44:02.807 --> 00:44:06.170
 It's a busy time here.
 
 00:44:07.391 --> 00:44:08.932
 It's been great talking to you, Ian.
 
 00:44:09.172 --> 00:44:10.052
 Thank you so much.
 
 00:44:11.034 --> 00:44:12.335
 I very much enjoyed the conversation.
 
 00:44:12.355 --> 00:44:15.356
 I appreciate you having me on.
 
 00:44:15.396 --> 00:44:16.257
 Thank you so much.
 
 00:44:16.478 --> 00:44:18.599
 I encourage folks to check
 
 00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:19.659
 out Johnson Hall State
 
 00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:22.842
 Historic Site in Johnstown, New York.
 
 00:44:22.882 --> 00:44:23.242
 Thank you.
 
 00:44:23.382 --> 00:44:25.543
 Thank you to Jonathan Lane, our producer,
 
 00:44:25.583 --> 00:44:26.844
 the man behind the curtain.
 
 00:44:27.204 --> 00:44:27.445
 If you
 
 00:44:28.284 --> 00:44:30.246
 I want to send Jonathan an email,
 
 00:44:30.385 --> 00:44:32.927
 jlane at revolution two five O dot org.
 
 00:44:32.947 --> 00:44:34.027
 If you have ideas for what
 
 00:44:34.067 --> 00:44:35.327
 we'd like to hear about.
 
 00:44:35.987 --> 00:44:37.047
 And every week we thank
 
 00:44:37.088 --> 00:44:39.088
 folks who are tuning in regularly.
 
 00:44:39.128 --> 00:44:39.969
 And if you're in one of
 
 00:44:39.989 --> 00:44:41.349
 these places and want to
 
 00:44:41.389 --> 00:44:42.530
 connect with Jonathan,
 
 00:44:42.590 --> 00:44:43.829
 he will send you some of
 
 00:44:43.889 --> 00:44:46.170
 our rev two fifty swag.
 
 00:44:46.190 --> 00:44:47.451
 So every week we thank folks
 
 00:44:47.471 --> 00:44:49.152
 who are regular listeners.
 
 00:44:49.231 --> 00:44:50.291
 And so this week I want to
 
 00:44:50.331 --> 00:44:51.313
 thank listeners and.
 
 00:44:52.402 --> 00:44:53.403
 These are all in the great
 
 00:44:53.463 --> 00:44:56.206
 state of New York, Seneca Falls, Hamburg,
 
 00:44:56.286 --> 00:44:58.688
 Binghamton, Rhinebeck, the Bronx,
 
 00:44:59.007 --> 00:44:59.568
 Shirley.
 
 00:45:00.108 --> 00:45:00.509
 Interesting,
 
 00:45:00.528 --> 00:45:01.389
 there's a town name for
 
 00:45:01.429 --> 00:45:03.070
 William Shirley in New York.
 
 00:45:03.632 --> 00:45:05.172
 And of course, New York City.
 
 00:45:05.733 --> 00:45:10.096
 And Winthrop, Maine, Pawtucket, Dublin,
 
 00:45:10.115 --> 00:45:13.259
 a town that William Johnson
 
 00:45:13.298 --> 00:45:14.219
 would have known.
 
 00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:16.101
 Fianfort on the Ross of Mull,
 
 00:45:16.181 --> 00:45:18.682
 a town on the Isle of Mull in Scotland.
 
 00:45:19.226 --> 00:45:20.369
 and Winthrop, Maine,
 
 00:45:20.509 --> 00:45:21.150
 and here in the
 
 00:45:21.289 --> 00:45:23.172
 Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Boston,
 
 00:45:23.231 --> 00:45:25.295
 Cambridge, New Bedford, and Billerica.
 
 00:45:25.916 --> 00:45:26.876
 And I want to thank all of
 
 00:45:26.896 --> 00:45:28.039
 our listeners in places
 
 00:45:28.099 --> 00:45:29.019
 between and beyond.
 
 00:45:29.059 --> 00:45:30.021
 Thanks for joining us.
 
 00:45:30.141 --> 00:45:31.744
 Now we will be piped out on
 
 00:45:31.784 --> 00:45:32.684
 the road to Boston.