The Fate of the Day with Rick Atkinson

For our 250th Episode, Pulitzer-prize winning author Rick Atkinson joins us to talk about his best-selling new book, The Fate of the Day:  From Ticonderoga to Charleston, which focuses on the War between the British capture of Ticonderoga in 1777 to the fall of Charleston in 1780.  HIs book, and our conversation,  plumb the depths of the American Revolution and the characters who shaped the war.  This is the second volume of his Revolutionary War trilogy, and leaves us wanting to know more. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:01.171 --> 00:00:01.872
 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the Revolution
 
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 Two Fifty podcast.
 
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 This is our two hundred fiftieth episode.
 
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 We began this journey back
 
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 in the fall of twenty
 
 00:00:09.137 --> 00:00:10.878
 twenty thinking we would
 
 00:00:10.938 --> 00:00:12.739
 record a few episodes and
 
 00:00:12.999 --> 00:00:13.958
 see who listened.
 
 00:00:13.999 --> 00:00:14.560
 We thought we'd have a
 
 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:15.599
 handful of friends and
 
 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:17.361
 family tuning in periodically,
 
 00:00:17.400 --> 00:00:18.562
 but it's been so gratifying
 
 00:00:18.602 --> 00:00:19.983
 having such a wide audience
 
 00:00:20.022 --> 00:00:21.743
 around the world tuning in
 
 00:00:21.824 --> 00:00:22.544
 regularly their
 
 00:00:22.583 --> 00:00:24.385
 conversations about the
 
 00:00:24.425 --> 00:00:25.705
 American Revolution.
 
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 And for two hundred fiftieth episode,
 
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 we have a very special guest,
 
 00:00:29.268 --> 00:00:30.908
 Rick Atkinson, who is the
 
 00:00:31.806 --> 00:00:32.887
 In the midst of writing a
 
 00:00:32.926 --> 00:00:35.329
 trilogy on the American Revolution,
 
 00:00:35.348 --> 00:00:38.371
 The Fate of the Day is the current volume,
 
 00:00:38.411 --> 00:00:41.213
 the tremendous work,
 
 00:00:41.354 --> 00:00:42.816
 it's The War for America
 
 00:00:43.957 --> 00:00:45.939
 from Fort Ticonderoga to Charleston,
 
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 volume one covered from
 
 00:00:48.140 --> 00:00:49.822
 Lexington and Concord to
 
 00:00:49.902 --> 00:00:51.404
 the crossing of the Delaware.
 
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 And so Rick,
 
 00:00:52.804 --> 00:00:53.966
 thank you so much for joining us.
 
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 Well, thank you, Bob.
 
 00:00:55.774 --> 00:00:56.795
 Thanks for having me.
 
 00:00:56.854 --> 00:00:58.676
 And congratulations on your
 
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 own semi-quincentennial
 
 00:01:01.176 --> 00:01:02.898
 with the broadcast.
 
 00:01:03.218 --> 00:01:04.299
 That is really a milestone.
 
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 It really is.
 
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 It really is.
 
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 It's been fun working on it
 
 00:01:07.275 --> 00:01:08.876
 and getting to talk to folks like you.
 
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 We've had Gordon Wood, Mary Beth Norton,
 
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 lots of reenactors, museum folks,
 
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 and generating excitement,
 
 00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:16.881
 interest in this is really
 
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 what we're doing.
 
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 And let me just give our
 
 00:01:20.162 --> 00:01:22.183
 audience a brief rundown of
 
 00:01:22.284 --> 00:01:23.483
 some of your credentials.
 
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 Born in Washington, lives in Washington.
 
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 Actually, no, you're born in Munich.
 
 00:01:27.506 --> 00:01:28.027
 I'm sorry.
 
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 See, I'm screwing it up already.
 
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 Born in Munich.
 
 00:01:31.168 --> 00:01:32.849
 Lived in Washington for many
 
 00:01:32.909 --> 00:01:34.631
 years and began your career
 
 00:01:34.671 --> 00:01:36.332
 as a journalist in Kansas
 
 00:01:36.593 --> 00:01:38.555
 and spent many years with
 
 00:01:38.575 --> 00:01:39.775
 the Washington Post before
 
 00:01:39.796 --> 00:01:42.117
 you got into actually writing history.
 
 00:01:42.158 --> 00:01:43.620
 You wrote a tremendous
 
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 trilogy on the Second World War.
 
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 You've also written about
 
 00:01:49.105 --> 00:01:52.066
 the Iraq War and the Vietnam War.
 
 00:01:53.052 --> 00:01:54.712
 So I guess one question I have,
 
 00:01:54.731 --> 00:01:56.052
 you really have done a
 
 00:01:56.093 --> 00:01:57.632
 great job of looking at
 
 00:01:57.653 --> 00:01:58.953
 these twentieth century wars,
 
 00:01:58.992 --> 00:02:00.533
 and what drew you back to
 
 00:02:00.753 --> 00:02:01.852
 the eighteenth century and
 
 00:02:01.873 --> 00:02:04.694
 the American Revolution?
 
 00:02:04.713 --> 00:02:05.114
 Yes,
 
 00:02:06.093 --> 00:02:08.715
 I had written both as a journalist and
 
 00:02:08.735 --> 00:02:09.675
 a foreign correspondent,
 
 00:02:09.715 --> 00:02:10.655
 war correspondent,
 
 00:02:10.854 --> 00:02:12.875
 about more contemporary wars,
 
 00:02:13.895 --> 00:02:17.475
 including covering our
 
 00:02:17.596 --> 00:02:19.056
 military operations in
 
 00:02:19.216 --> 00:02:22.296
 places like Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan.
 
 00:02:24.090 --> 00:02:24.289
 You know,
 
 00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:25.891
 having written books about
 
 00:02:26.451 --> 00:02:27.633
 twentieth and early
 
 00:02:27.674 --> 00:02:28.974
 twenty-first century wars
 
 00:02:29.034 --> 00:02:30.295
 and spent so much time with
 
 00:02:30.336 --> 00:02:32.377
 the latter-day military,
 
 00:02:33.860 --> 00:02:35.001
 I kept harkening back,
 
 00:02:35.901 --> 00:02:37.342
 wondering about origins.
 
 00:02:37.742 --> 00:02:38.644
 Where did they come from?
 
 00:02:38.683 --> 00:02:40.105
 Where did these militaries come from?
 
 00:02:40.145 --> 00:02:41.447
 Where did that army come from?
 
 00:02:42.328 --> 00:02:43.588
 The ethic of the army,
 
 00:02:43.649 --> 00:02:45.270
 the traditions of the army,
 
 00:02:46.731 --> 00:02:48.693
 capabilities of the army.
 
 00:02:49.413 --> 00:02:50.995
 And, you know, since I was a kid,
 
 00:02:51.134 --> 00:02:52.395
 I suspect you're the same way.
 
 00:02:52.436 --> 00:02:54.377
 I've had a native interest
 
 00:02:54.437 --> 00:02:55.617
 in the American Revolution.
 
 00:02:56.397 --> 00:02:58.520
 I can remember being in
 
 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:00.501
 eighth grade at George S. Patton Jr.
 
 00:03:00.580 --> 00:03:02.162
 Junior High School in Fort Worth,
 
 00:03:02.201 --> 00:03:02.961
 North Kansas.
 
 00:03:03.823 --> 00:03:04.742
 My father was an army
 
 00:03:04.802 --> 00:03:06.564
 officer and encountering
 
 00:03:06.604 --> 00:03:08.126
 Benedict Arnold for the first time.
 
 00:03:09.526 --> 00:03:10.127
 And, you know,
 
 00:03:10.167 --> 00:03:11.848
 he's a pretty arresting figure.
 
 00:03:12.500 --> 00:03:14.441
 And once you are exposed to
 
 00:03:14.501 --> 00:03:15.181
 somebody like that,
 
 00:03:15.200 --> 00:03:16.061
 you want to know more.
 
 00:03:16.140 --> 00:03:19.421
 So when I finished with the
 
 00:03:19.461 --> 00:03:20.742
 World War II trilogy,
 
 00:03:20.763 --> 00:03:21.823
 which took me the better
 
 00:03:21.842 --> 00:03:24.283
 part of fifteen years casting about,
 
 00:03:25.044 --> 00:03:26.685
 I settled on the Revolution.
 
 00:03:28.784 --> 00:03:30.645
 And I think it helps that
 
 00:03:30.665 --> 00:03:31.786
 you have this background
 
 00:03:31.847 --> 00:03:34.167
 actually covering contemporary military.
 
 00:03:34.206 --> 00:03:35.608
 You really get into a sense
 
 00:03:35.668 --> 00:03:38.288
 of what not only battles were like,
 
 00:03:38.329 --> 00:03:39.588
 but what life was like,
 
 00:03:39.868 --> 00:03:41.110
 both for soldiers and for
 
 00:03:41.150 --> 00:03:42.069
 people on the home front.
 
 00:03:43.769 --> 00:03:44.028
 Yes,
 
 00:03:44.248 --> 00:03:46.349
 I do think that having spent a fair
 
 00:03:46.370 --> 00:03:47.730
 amount of time in the field,
 
 00:03:47.991 --> 00:03:49.312
 having grown up in the Army,
 
 00:03:50.353 --> 00:03:52.274
 I speak the language, I know the slang,
 
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 I know the acronyms,
 
 00:03:53.875 --> 00:03:55.194
 I know the difference
 
 00:03:55.235 --> 00:03:55.776
 between an
 
 00:03:55.795 --> 00:04:07.701
 M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M
 
 00:04:08.496 --> 00:04:09.056
 Fort Campbell,
 
 00:04:09.075 --> 00:04:10.858
 Kentucky to go off what
 
 00:04:10.877 --> 00:04:11.578
 turned out to be the
 
 00:04:11.598 --> 00:04:12.718
 invasion of Iraq in two
 
 00:04:12.739 --> 00:04:13.699
 thousand and three.
 
 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:17.221
 And I think, you know, watching Petraeus,
 
 00:04:18.103 --> 00:04:19.363
 watching that unit,
 
 00:04:19.384 --> 00:04:20.345
 the storied hundred and
 
 00:04:20.365 --> 00:04:22.425
 first airborne going to
 
 00:04:22.766 --> 00:04:26.569
 combat informs my writing
 
 00:04:26.749 --> 00:04:29.151
 about even the historical
 
 00:04:29.310 --> 00:04:31.593
 army of the seventeen seventies.
 
 00:04:32.372 --> 00:04:35.353
 I see things about leadership.
 
 00:04:35.954 --> 00:04:37.035
 I see little things like
 
 00:04:37.375 --> 00:04:39.755
 light discipline and sleep discipline,
 
 00:04:39.776 --> 00:04:41.656
 which are important for
 
 00:04:42.057 --> 00:04:44.899
 units in combat that are
 
 00:04:44.978 --> 00:04:46.839
 certainly applicable to the
 
 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:47.781
 American Revolution and
 
 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:49.641
 would be entirely
 
 00:04:51.322 --> 00:04:53.384
 recognizable to Thucydides
 
 00:04:53.483 --> 00:04:53.983
 for that matter.
 
 00:04:54.024 --> 00:04:54.925
 Right, right, yeah.
 
 00:04:55.952 --> 00:04:57.975
 You talk about leadership a lot.
 
 00:04:57.995 --> 00:04:58.615
 I wonder if you could just
 
 00:04:58.675 --> 00:04:59.716
 kind of tell us who do you
 
 00:04:59.755 --> 00:05:01.057
 think were the best,
 
 00:05:01.117 --> 00:05:01.718
 and maybe we could also
 
 00:05:01.757 --> 00:05:02.519
 talk about who were the
 
 00:05:02.559 --> 00:05:03.800
 worst on each side as
 
 00:05:03.819 --> 00:05:04.500
 you've been looking.
 
 00:05:04.581 --> 00:05:06.221
 You really do a very fair
 
 00:05:06.262 --> 00:05:08.884
 job of looking at all of the leaders,
 
 00:05:08.923 --> 00:05:10.886
 the French, the British, the German,
 
 00:05:11.086 --> 00:05:13.288
 the American, and assessing them,
 
 00:05:13.668 --> 00:05:15.290
 but not hitting us over the head with it,
 
 00:05:15.350 --> 00:05:16.471
 letting us see,
 
 00:05:16.711 --> 00:05:18.112
 showing rather than telling.
 
 00:05:18.132 --> 00:05:20.675
 But in your judgment then, who are
 
 00:05:21.487 --> 00:05:22.327
 some of the best of the
 
 00:05:22.387 --> 00:05:23.009
 leaders that you've
 
 00:05:23.028 --> 00:05:24.769
 encountered in the Revolution.
 
 00:05:24.788 --> 00:05:26.589
 Yeah, you know, it's one of the privileges,
 
 00:05:26.910 --> 00:05:27.790
 as you well know,
 
 00:05:28.370 --> 00:05:29.411
 in doing this kind of work
 
 00:05:29.490 --> 00:05:31.050
 is to be able to live with
 
 00:05:31.091 --> 00:05:33.851
 them and to make assessments by them.
 
 00:05:34.091 --> 00:05:34.632
 And show,
 
 00:05:34.653 --> 00:05:36.853
 don't tell is the mantra of the
 
 00:05:36.952 --> 00:05:37.913
 good narrative writer,
 
 00:05:37.934 --> 00:05:40.714
 as you rightly invoke.
 
 00:05:42.394 --> 00:05:43.776
 You know, I think on the American side,
 
 00:05:43.795 --> 00:05:45.136
 you have to start with Washington.
 
 00:05:45.216 --> 00:05:46.997
 He's all in the tent.
 
 00:05:48.117 --> 00:05:50.639
 He's the proverbial indispensable man.
 
 00:05:50.899 --> 00:05:51.819
 And I think it's true.
 
 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:53.379
 He is the indispensable man.
 
 00:05:54.161 --> 00:05:57.081
 I recognize that he is not a
 
 00:05:57.122 --> 00:05:58.661
 particularly gifted tactician.
 
 00:05:58.682 --> 00:06:00.403
 He makes mistakes.
 
 00:06:00.502 --> 00:06:03.244
 He misreads the ground at Long Island,
 
 00:06:03.283 --> 00:06:03.925
 for example.
 
 00:06:04.404 --> 00:06:05.524
 Doesn't go out and look at
 
 00:06:05.545 --> 00:06:06.485
 the ground himself.
 
 00:06:06.526 --> 00:06:08.065
 This is a guy who used to be a surveyor.
 
 00:06:09.187 --> 00:06:10.146
 He's keenly interested in
 
 00:06:10.206 --> 00:06:11.288
 studying the terrain.
 
 00:06:11.947 --> 00:06:12.648
 He doesn't do it.
 
 00:06:12.668 --> 00:06:13.749
 He gets outflanked.
 
 00:06:13.769 --> 00:06:15.249
 The British are behind him.
 
 00:06:15.329 --> 00:06:17.009
 He nearly loses the army.
 
 00:06:17.725 --> 00:06:18.547
 What happens again at
 
 00:06:18.607 --> 00:06:20.387
 Brandywine a year later?
 
 00:06:21.408 --> 00:06:22.887
 You begin to think,
 
 00:06:23.009 --> 00:06:25.310
 and some others at the time
 
 00:06:25.350 --> 00:06:27.810
 began to think, what is it with this guy?
 
 00:06:28.170 --> 00:06:29.391
 Has he got the right stuff?
 
 00:06:30.351 --> 00:06:30.552
 Well,
 
 00:06:30.572 --> 00:06:32.552
 he's got a number of other attributes
 
 00:06:32.593 --> 00:06:34.673
 that cannot be easily dismissed.
 
 00:06:35.213 --> 00:06:35.533
 Certainly,
 
 00:06:35.553 --> 00:06:37.495
 he redeems himself on occasion
 
 00:06:38.154 --> 00:06:40.536
 as a tactician, as a strategist.
 
 00:06:42.016 --> 00:06:43.838
 He's in...
 
 00:06:44.653 --> 00:06:46.213
 the saddle for eight years.
 
 00:06:46.233 --> 00:06:47.555
 He only goes home to Mount
 
 00:06:47.574 --> 00:06:49.456
 Vernon once in those whole eight years,
 
 00:06:49.475 --> 00:06:50.896
 and that's a very brief visit.
 
 00:06:52.156 --> 00:06:52.997
 He's robust.
 
 00:06:53.418 --> 00:06:54.838
 He never seems to catch cold.
 
 00:06:55.478 --> 00:06:56.759
 He's very important in an
 
 00:06:56.899 --> 00:06:58.980
 age when typhus and
 
 00:06:59.021 --> 00:07:01.961
 smallpox and dysentery kill
 
 00:07:02.002 --> 00:07:02.983
 thousands of soldiers.
 
 00:07:04.923 --> 00:07:07.824
 He's got, like Eisenhower,
 
 00:07:08.004 --> 00:07:09.846
 with whom I spent fifteen
 
 00:07:09.865 --> 00:07:10.887
 years metaphorically,
 
 00:07:11.747 --> 00:07:14.089
 He's got a great clarity of expression,
 
 00:07:15.250 --> 00:07:16.911
 both in writing and orally.
 
 00:07:17.091 --> 00:07:18.913
 You rarely leave his
 
 00:07:18.973 --> 00:07:20.754
 presence without
 
 00:07:20.954 --> 00:07:21.975
 understanding what it is
 
 00:07:22.677 --> 00:07:25.319
 that the commander in chief intends.
 
 00:07:25.718 --> 00:07:27.940
 What is his intent?
 
 00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:29.442
 That's a virtue.
 
 00:07:30.374 --> 00:07:31.314
 He's courageous.
 
 00:07:31.375 --> 00:07:33.437
 He leads from the front all too often.
 
 00:07:34.697 --> 00:07:36.678
 Bullets nicking around him.
 
 00:07:37.939 --> 00:07:38.701
 He's lucky,
 
 00:07:39.180 --> 00:07:39.942
 which is the trait that
 
 00:07:40.141 --> 00:07:42.064
 Napoleon most cherished in his generals.
 
 00:07:43.444 --> 00:07:44.745
 Not to be undervalued in
 
 00:07:44.846 --> 00:07:45.966
 life and certainly not to
 
 00:07:45.987 --> 00:07:47.487
 be undervalued in military leaders.
 
 00:07:48.208 --> 00:07:50.889
 So I would start with Washington.
 
 00:07:51.129 --> 00:07:52.990
 Others who catch my eye,
 
 00:07:53.071 --> 00:07:54.192
 I think Nathaniel Green,
 
 00:07:54.971 --> 00:07:57.733
 second only to Washington.
 
 00:07:57.774 --> 00:08:00.516
 Excuse me, as the indispensable man.
 
 00:08:01.095 --> 00:08:02.076
 Yeah, and in this book,
 
 00:08:02.115 --> 00:08:03.156
 he's the quartermaster,
 
 00:08:03.237 --> 00:08:04.336
 and he laments that no
 
 00:08:04.416 --> 00:08:05.398
 one's ever heard about a
 
 00:08:05.437 --> 00:08:06.699
 quartermaster in history,
 
 00:08:06.718 --> 00:08:08.720
 but Washington puts him in that position.
 
 00:08:09.161 --> 00:08:09.581
 I have to say,
 
 00:08:09.661 --> 00:08:11.521
 one thing you do in this book,
 
 00:08:11.682 --> 00:08:12.642
 which is good,
 
 00:08:12.663 --> 00:08:14.463
 I see a lot of books that say, okay,
 
 00:08:15.125 --> 00:08:16.485
 Green became the quartermaster,
 
 00:08:16.985 --> 00:08:18.908
 and that was really a good thing.
 
 00:08:18.987 --> 00:08:20.788
 You really explain what he
 
 00:08:20.829 --> 00:08:22.610
 does and why it was important.
 
 00:08:24.130 --> 00:08:24.512
 Yeah,
 
 00:08:24.591 --> 00:08:26.153
 because it's critically important to
 
 00:08:26.192 --> 00:08:26.872
 the cause.
 
 00:08:27.774 --> 00:08:27.853
 Yeah,
 
 00:08:27.874 --> 00:08:30.675
 it's in The Grim Winter at Valley Forge.
 
 00:08:30.735 --> 00:08:30.815
 Yeah.
 
 00:08:31.507 --> 00:08:35.970
 In it's early, the army's falling apart.
 
 00:08:36.029 --> 00:08:37.890
 The supply system has collapsed.
 
 00:08:39.191 --> 00:08:40.591
 Washington turns to him and says,
 
 00:08:40.652 --> 00:08:41.312
 I need you to be my
 
 00:08:41.331 --> 00:08:42.293
 quartermaster general.
 
 00:08:42.493 --> 00:08:42.932
 Green says,
 
 00:08:42.972 --> 00:08:44.874
 I don't want to nobody in history,
 
 00:08:44.994 --> 00:08:45.494
 as you say,
 
 00:08:45.514 --> 00:08:46.173
 has ever heard of a
 
 00:08:46.193 --> 00:08:47.835
 quartermaster general quote unquote,
 
 00:08:48.875 --> 00:08:50.155
 Washington says, you gotta,
 
 00:08:50.336 --> 00:08:51.397
 I need you to do this.
 
 00:08:52.096 --> 00:08:54.418
 And so out of loyalty to Washington,
 
 00:08:54.498 --> 00:08:56.399
 loyalty to the cause loyalty to the army.
 
 00:08:57.162 --> 00:08:58.182
 Green does it for a couple
 
 00:08:58.202 --> 00:08:58.962
 of years and he's really
 
 00:08:58.982 --> 00:08:59.783
 quite brilliant at it.
 
 00:09:00.183 --> 00:09:01.825
 He's got a big brain
 
 00:09:01.965 --> 00:09:03.605
 organized for executive
 
 00:09:03.725 --> 00:09:05.125
 action like Washington's.
 
 00:09:06.427 --> 00:09:07.807
 He takes responsibility.
 
 00:09:07.908 --> 00:09:11.750
 He's a demon for details like Washington.
 
 00:09:13.350 --> 00:09:14.991
 He's got organizational gifts.
 
 00:09:16.013 --> 00:09:17.572
 So, you know,
 
 00:09:17.613 --> 00:09:20.294
 we see him take on this unorthodox role.
 
 00:09:20.850 --> 00:09:22.511
 that he doesn't want to do,
 
 00:09:22.591 --> 00:09:23.491
 but he does it.
 
 00:09:23.552 --> 00:09:24.952
 And then, of course,
 
 00:09:25.332 --> 00:09:26.114
 he's going to go back to
 
 00:09:26.153 --> 00:09:27.033
 the field and he's going to
 
 00:09:27.073 --> 00:09:28.975
 be the preeminent field
 
 00:09:29.014 --> 00:09:30.556
 commander for the last
 
 00:09:30.615 --> 00:09:31.515
 couple years of the war
 
 00:09:31.535 --> 00:09:33.716
 when the war moves almost entirely south.
 
 00:09:33.756 --> 00:09:34.717
 And there he is.
 
 00:09:34.738 --> 00:09:36.139
 That's volume three, right?
 
 00:09:36.158 --> 00:09:36.918
 That is volume three.
 
 00:09:36.938 --> 00:09:37.839
 Yeah, we're not going to spoil that one.
 
 00:09:37.860 --> 00:09:37.940
 Yeah.
 
 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:39.200
 Yeah, that's right.
 
 00:09:41.280 --> 00:09:42.522
 Any others that strike you?
 
 00:09:42.562 --> 00:09:42.761
 I mean,
 
 00:09:42.902 --> 00:09:45.222
 Washington and Greene are really
 
 00:09:46.104 --> 00:09:46.783
 essential,
 
 00:09:47.043 --> 00:09:48.485
 but then how many others do you
 
 00:09:48.504 --> 00:09:48.825
 think are?
 
 00:09:49.171 --> 00:09:50.812
 yeah well you know one of
 
 00:09:50.851 --> 00:09:51.692
 the things that washington
 
 00:09:51.731 --> 00:09:52.692
 does really well he has a
 
 00:09:52.751 --> 00:09:53.912
 good eye for subordinate
 
 00:09:53.932 --> 00:09:56.273
 talents yeah he sees this
 
 00:09:57.033 --> 00:09:57.993
 twenty-five-year-old
 
 00:09:58.092 --> 00:09:59.033
 overweight boston
 
 00:09:59.073 --> 00:10:01.053
 bookseller yeah named henry
 
 00:10:01.073 --> 00:10:02.955
 knox yeah somehow into its
 
 00:10:02.975 --> 00:10:04.375
 yes doesn't even have a
 
 00:10:04.514 --> 00:10:06.596
 uniform at the time yeah uh
 
 00:10:06.615 --> 00:10:07.716
 but he's got a genius for
 
 00:10:07.775 --> 00:10:08.975
 gunnery and washington
 
 00:10:09.015 --> 00:10:09.817
 intuits that he's going to
 
 00:10:09.836 --> 00:10:10.756
 be the father of american
 
 00:10:10.777 --> 00:10:13.998
 artillery so he he's quite
 
 00:10:14.158 --> 00:10:15.738
 critical to the cause and
 
 00:10:15.758 --> 00:10:16.938
 to washington he's of
 
 00:10:16.979 --> 00:10:17.879
 course going to serve as
 
 00:10:19.014 --> 00:10:22.038
 Secretary of War in Washington's cabinet.
 
 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:23.400
 You know,
 
 00:10:23.561 --> 00:10:25.082
 we have to mention Benedict Arnold.
 
 00:10:25.102 --> 00:10:25.543
 Sure.
 
 00:10:25.562 --> 00:10:25.743
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:10:26.703 --> 00:10:27.745
 He's the best tactical
 
 00:10:27.785 --> 00:10:28.907
 commander on either side in
 
 00:10:28.927 --> 00:10:30.067
 the first couple of years of the war.
 
 00:10:31.206 --> 00:10:32.245
 born to lead other men in
 
 00:10:32.265 --> 00:10:33.106
 the dark of night.
 
 00:10:33.687 --> 00:10:37.628
 He's got great capacity to inspire,
 
 00:10:37.668 --> 00:10:38.707
 to lead from the front.
 
 00:10:38.788 --> 00:10:40.989
 He's extremely aggressive.
 
 00:10:41.548 --> 00:10:42.869
 Washington recognizes all of
 
 00:10:42.889 --> 00:10:43.328
 this quite quickly.
 
 00:10:45.710 --> 00:10:49.071
 And appreciates Arnold's
 
 00:10:49.990 --> 00:10:54.352
 and is a protector of Arnold,
 
 00:10:54.373 --> 00:10:55.094
 because there are always
 
 00:10:55.214 --> 00:10:57.095
 lesser men nattering at his heels.
 
 00:10:57.735 --> 00:10:59.796
 He's feuding with Congress.
 
 00:11:00.296 --> 00:11:01.697
 He feels underappreciated.
 
 00:11:01.736 --> 00:11:02.937
 He is underappreciated.
 
 00:11:02.957 --> 00:11:05.798
 And Washington is his patron,
 
 00:11:05.818 --> 00:11:07.179
 his rabbi of sorts.
 
 00:11:08.539 --> 00:11:10.620
 So, you know, we have to mention him.
 
 00:11:12.001 --> 00:11:15.384
 I think of those who are perhaps mobile,
 
 00:11:17.905 --> 00:11:19.907
 were over praised.
 
 00:11:21.947 --> 00:11:22.347
 You know,
 
 00:11:22.528 --> 00:11:26.350
 John Sullivan is a New Hampshire lawyer.
 
 00:11:27.330 --> 00:11:28.451
 And boy, is he a lawyer.
 
 00:11:30.071 --> 00:11:31.851
 He's Washington,
 
 00:11:33.232 --> 00:11:36.614
 who rarely has his inner
 
 00:11:36.693 --> 00:11:38.215
 circle fall out of favor.
 
 00:11:38.294 --> 00:11:39.815
 He's loyal to a fault.
 
 00:11:40.535 --> 00:11:41.296
 I think he's loyal to a
 
 00:11:41.336 --> 00:11:42.395
 fault with John Sullivan.
 
 00:11:43.456 --> 00:11:45.758
 He becomes a major general.
 
 00:11:46.624 --> 00:11:49.184
 He's involved in a lot of scraps.
 
 00:11:49.384 --> 00:11:50.966
 He's captured at Long Island.
 
 00:11:54.048 --> 00:11:55.869
 He's pretty clumsy at Long Island.
 
 00:11:56.528 --> 00:11:57.470
 He's exchanged.
 
 00:11:58.470 --> 00:12:00.671
 He leads a large raid on
 
 00:12:00.730 --> 00:12:02.851
 Staten Island that goes bad.
 
 00:12:04.173 --> 00:12:05.634
 He's at Brandywine.
 
 00:12:06.333 --> 00:12:08.235
 If anyone deserves fault
 
 00:12:08.274 --> 00:12:10.495
 besides Washington, it's Sullivan,
 
 00:12:10.895 --> 00:12:12.437
 who misreads the ground,
 
 00:12:12.476 --> 00:12:14.097
 doesn't realize he's getting outflanked.
 
 00:12:16.014 --> 00:12:18.596
 So we see Sullivan screwing
 
 00:12:18.677 --> 00:12:19.596
 up again and again.
 
 00:12:19.697 --> 00:12:22.078
 When Washington launches the
 
 00:12:22.119 --> 00:12:25.100
 biggest campaign of the year,
 
 00:12:25.140 --> 00:12:26.282
 which is not against the British,
 
 00:12:26.341 --> 00:12:28.363
 it's against the Iroquois,
 
 00:12:29.384 --> 00:12:30.783
 it's a punitive expedition
 
 00:12:31.365 --> 00:12:33.605
 into western New York,
 
 00:12:35.027 --> 00:12:37.089
 Washington gives the command to Sullivan.
 
 00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:38.489
 And, you know,
 
 00:12:38.509 --> 00:12:40.049
 they burn forty Iroquois
 
 00:12:40.070 --> 00:12:41.630
 villages and they chase the
 
 00:12:41.672 --> 00:12:42.351
 Indians around.
 
 00:12:43.471 --> 00:12:46.053
 Um, it's largely unsuccessful.
 
 00:12:47.154 --> 00:12:49.417
 He doesn't, uh, he doesn't finish the job,
 
 00:12:49.596 --> 00:12:51.317
 the retreat to the St.
 
 00:12:51.357 --> 00:12:52.318
 Lawrence river Valley,
 
 00:12:53.059 --> 00:12:54.181
 and they're going to begin
 
 00:12:54.441 --> 00:12:56.582
 almost immediately launching raids again,
 
 00:12:56.923 --> 00:12:58.784
 South to the Mohawk Valley.
 
 00:13:00.005 --> 00:13:02.607
 And, and so, you know, Sullivan,
 
 00:13:02.687 --> 00:13:04.429
 I think is somebody who's
 
 00:13:04.590 --> 00:13:06.291
 really overrated and
 
 00:13:06.672 --> 00:13:07.532
 shouldn't have been given
 
 00:13:07.793 --> 00:13:08.894
 all the responsibilities
 
 00:13:08.913 --> 00:13:09.573
 that he was given.
 
 00:13:09.594 --> 00:13:09.693
 Okay.
 
 00:13:11.238 --> 00:13:13.179
 We're talking with Rick Atkinson,
 
 00:13:13.220 --> 00:13:15.000
 whose new book is Fate of the Day,
 
 00:13:15.061 --> 00:13:16.182
 The War for America,
 
 00:13:16.221 --> 00:13:19.563
 Fort Ticonderoga to Charleston,
 
 00:13:19.644 --> 00:13:21.105
 it's part of a trilogy.
 
 00:13:21.144 --> 00:13:22.767
 The first was The British Are Coming,
 
 00:13:23.746 --> 00:13:26.369
 The War of American Independence,
 
 00:13:26.389 --> 00:13:28.190
 which really is a, I mean,
 
 00:13:28.230 --> 00:13:30.251
 your first book was tremendous.
 
 00:13:30.272 --> 00:13:32.092
 This one is also a bestseller,
 
 00:13:32.133 --> 00:13:32.974
 and it's really doing a lot
 
 00:13:32.994 --> 00:13:34.195
 to draw attention to this.
 
 00:13:34.254 --> 00:13:35.216
 I know you've also been
 
 00:13:35.255 --> 00:13:37.376
 involved with Ken Burns' project, too.
 
 00:13:39.195 --> 00:13:40.056
 tell the story of the
 
 00:13:40.076 --> 00:13:41.697
 American Revolution for
 
 00:13:41.777 --> 00:13:42.658
 people who are not
 
 00:13:42.697 --> 00:13:45.399
 professional historians?
 
 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:45.899
 Yes.
 
 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:48.543
 It's been a real pleasure
 
 00:13:48.582 --> 00:13:50.283
 for more than three years now.
 
 00:13:51.205 --> 00:13:55.207
 Burns' next big project is a film,
 
 00:13:55.227 --> 00:13:57.109
 a documentary on the American Revolution.
 
 00:13:58.510 --> 00:14:00.472
 six parts, twelve hours total.
 
 00:14:00.932 --> 00:14:04.235
 It'll air on PBS in mid November.
 
 00:14:04.255 --> 00:14:05.136
 It starts on November
 
 00:14:05.177 --> 00:14:06.979
 sixteenth and I've been
 
 00:14:07.019 --> 00:14:09.100
 involved reading scripts
 
 00:14:09.260 --> 00:14:11.322
 and viewing the rough cut
 
 00:14:13.104 --> 00:14:15.125
 on camera quite a bit and
 
 00:14:15.365 --> 00:14:16.586
 now helping him to promote it.
 
 00:14:16.626 --> 00:14:17.067
 He's on a
 
 00:14:18.792 --> 00:14:21.613
 whirlwind breakneck tour of
 
 00:14:21.852 --> 00:14:23.913
 about twenty-some cities,
 
 00:14:24.073 --> 00:14:26.173
 promoting it on behalf of PBS,
 
 00:14:26.214 --> 00:14:28.154
 which is besieged now, as you know.
 
 00:14:29.115 --> 00:14:31.556
 And it's a beautiful thing that he's made.
 
 00:14:32.856 --> 00:14:34.657
 He's got challenges, obviously.
 
 00:14:34.697 --> 00:14:36.597
 There are no living veterans.
 
 00:14:36.638 --> 00:14:39.379
 There are no photographs.
 
 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:41.479
 So he's got to fill that
 
 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:42.840
 twelve hours of airtime in
 
 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:44.299
 innovative ways.
 
 00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:45.000
 And he does.
 
 00:14:45.061 --> 00:14:46.280
 It's very comprehensive.
 
 00:14:47.010 --> 00:14:48.552
 He tells the story not just
 
 00:14:48.652 --> 00:14:50.573
 of the Continental Army and
 
 00:14:50.634 --> 00:14:52.754
 the guys we've been talking about,
 
 00:14:52.875 --> 00:14:57.018
 but he also doesn't neglect the enslaved.
 
 00:14:57.038 --> 00:14:59.220
 He doesn't neglect women.
 
 00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:01.860
 He looks on the other side of the hill,
 
 00:15:02.241 --> 00:15:04.623
 as I also try to do,
 
 00:15:04.763 --> 00:15:05.783
 to see what it is that the
 
 00:15:05.823 --> 00:15:07.044
 British are doing, and then, of course,
 
 00:15:07.832 --> 00:15:09.192
 it becomes a global war with
 
 00:15:09.212 --> 00:15:11.433
 the French coming into it on our behalf,
 
 00:15:11.553 --> 00:15:13.615
 then the Spanish, eventually the Dutch.
 
 00:15:14.315 --> 00:15:16.335
 So it is a sweeping
 
 00:15:16.575 --> 00:15:19.176
 panoramic view that happens
 
 00:15:19.196 --> 00:15:20.936
 to be beautifully
 
 00:15:21.216 --> 00:15:25.217
 photographed and masterfully told.
 
 00:15:25.238 --> 00:15:26.398
 I think that people are
 
 00:15:26.437 --> 00:15:30.719
 really going to be quite dazzled by it.
 
 00:15:30.818 --> 00:15:31.859
 And speaking of looking at
 
 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:32.600
 things from somewhat
 
 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:34.360
 different perspectives, your book,
 
 00:15:34.886 --> 00:15:36.128
 begins at Versailles with
 
 00:15:36.188 --> 00:15:37.730
 Marie Antoinette and really
 
 00:15:37.971 --> 00:15:40.552
 ends with the Gordon riots in London.
 
 00:15:40.572 --> 00:15:41.875
 And I'm wondering about
 
 00:15:41.914 --> 00:15:43.155
 those choices of the
 
 00:15:43.196 --> 00:15:44.418
 beginning and ending points.
 
 00:15:44.457 --> 00:15:46.340
 Why Marie Antoinette at Versailles?
 
 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:46.519
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:49.623
 Well, Marie Antoinette, of course,
 
 00:15:49.644 --> 00:15:50.524
 is the queen of France.
 
 00:15:50.565 --> 00:15:51.885
 She's an Austrian
 
 00:15:52.606 --> 00:15:54.149
 spendthrift known around
 
 00:15:54.168 --> 00:15:56.091
 the French court as Madame Deficit.
 
 00:15:57.274 --> 00:15:59.297
 uh and I start with her uh
 
 00:15:59.898 --> 00:16:02.501
 um in uh the early spring
 
 00:16:02.562 --> 00:16:06.287
 of that's first of all
 
 00:16:06.346 --> 00:16:07.948
 where the first volume the
 
 00:16:07.969 --> 00:16:08.931
 british are coming leaves
 
 00:16:09.130 --> 00:16:11.855
 off at that time frame um
 
 00:16:13.668 --> 00:16:15.529
 It's critical to understand
 
 00:16:15.570 --> 00:16:16.429
 that the game for the
 
 00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:17.831
 Americans at this point is
 
 00:16:17.870 --> 00:16:19.511
 to get the French to come
 
 00:16:19.552 --> 00:16:21.471
 into the war with both feet.
 
 00:16:22.472 --> 00:16:25.073
 They have provided clandestine support,
 
 00:16:26.173 --> 00:16:27.095
 gunpowder,
 
 00:16:27.495 --> 00:16:29.296
 munitions of various sorts
 
 00:16:30.676 --> 00:16:31.496
 under the table.
 
 00:16:32.057 --> 00:16:33.278
 The British are aware of it,
 
 00:16:33.477 --> 00:16:36.719
 but it's relatively minor,
 
 00:16:36.778 --> 00:16:37.779
 although important given
 
 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:39.620
 how little gunpowder the
 
 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:40.941
 Americans have in general.
 
 00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:46.182
 The task of getting the
 
 00:16:46.363 --> 00:16:51.807
 regime of Louis XVI, Roman Catholic,
 
 00:16:52.067 --> 00:16:53.148
 absolute monarchy,
 
 00:16:54.609 --> 00:16:56.629
 to come in on behalf of
 
 00:16:57.530 --> 00:16:59.331
 Protestant wannabe
 
 00:16:59.371 --> 00:17:02.413
 Republicans intent on armed
 
 00:17:02.474 --> 00:17:04.395
 insurrection against their lawful monarch,
 
 00:17:04.796 --> 00:17:07.678
 that's a big diplomatic lift.
 
 00:17:08.586 --> 00:17:10.107
 And the guy responsible for
 
 00:17:10.587 --> 00:17:11.548
 making that happen
 
 00:17:11.689 --> 00:17:14.529
 diplomatically is Benjamin Franklin.
 
 00:17:14.549 --> 00:17:15.830
 Franklin has arrived in
 
 00:17:15.871 --> 00:17:17.352
 Paris in December of,
 
 00:17:17.412 --> 00:17:20.453
 and we see right at the
 
 00:17:21.374 --> 00:17:23.194
 opening of this new book, first of all,
 
 00:17:23.234 --> 00:17:25.135
 we're introduced to Louis
 
 00:17:25.296 --> 00:17:26.376
 XVI and the queen.
 
 00:17:27.698 --> 00:17:30.419
 We've given enough background, I hope,
 
 00:17:30.439 --> 00:17:31.079
 to understand
 
 00:17:32.042 --> 00:17:33.884
 why he would be tempted to do this,
 
 00:17:34.565 --> 00:17:35.924
 why Franklin's
 
 00:17:36.486 --> 00:17:38.747
 administrations actually
 
 00:17:38.846 --> 00:17:39.968
 work in the long run,
 
 00:17:41.409 --> 00:17:45.250
 why he would risk his regime,
 
 00:17:45.691 --> 00:17:47.633
 his position to
 
 00:17:48.788 --> 00:17:50.190
 go to war against Britain,
 
 00:17:50.490 --> 00:17:51.451
 hereditary enemy.
 
 00:17:51.471 --> 00:17:54.634
 They've already fought four wars,
 
 00:17:55.615 --> 00:17:57.717
 dynastic wars against Britain.
 
 00:17:57.757 --> 00:17:58.738
 Why would he do it again?
 
 00:17:58.857 --> 00:17:59.117
 Well,
 
 00:17:59.678 --> 00:18:02.141
 I think it's important to grasp that
 
 00:18:02.201 --> 00:18:03.582
 and to grasp the importance
 
 00:18:03.682 --> 00:18:04.883
 of Franklin's mission.
 
 00:18:04.903 --> 00:18:06.884
 Because what we're going to
 
 00:18:06.924 --> 00:18:08.526
 see is that he's successful,
 
 00:18:08.566 --> 00:18:10.227
 that he is able...
 
 00:18:11.067 --> 00:18:13.349
 After the American victory
 
 00:18:13.369 --> 00:18:15.432
 at Saratoga in September
 
 00:18:15.471 --> 00:18:18.294
 and October of seventeen seventy seven,
 
 00:18:18.773 --> 00:18:20.395
 he's able to persuade the
 
 00:18:20.435 --> 00:18:22.757
 king that the best way to
 
 00:18:22.856 --> 00:18:24.778
 stick it to their hereditary enemy,
 
 00:18:25.159 --> 00:18:25.579
 Great Britain,
 
 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:27.881
 is to assist the Americans
 
 00:18:27.921 --> 00:18:29.021
 who are themselves trying
 
 00:18:29.041 --> 00:18:30.103
 to stick it to Great Britain.
 
 00:18:30.303 --> 00:18:31.064
 Right.
 
 00:18:31.084 --> 00:18:33.286
 The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
 
 00:18:33.526 --> 00:18:33.665
 Right.
 
 00:18:35.036 --> 00:18:39.259
 So that's why we open at Versailles,
 
 00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:41.583
 seeing this dynamic begin to play out.
 
 00:18:41.643 --> 00:18:41.722
 Yeah.
 
 00:18:43.423 --> 00:18:45.645
 And then London in, I mean,
 
 00:18:45.665 --> 00:18:48.288
 the Gordon riots are really
 
 00:18:48.308 --> 00:18:49.130
 a phenomenal thing.
 
 00:18:49.170 --> 00:18:50.030
 And here we really see the
 
 00:18:50.070 --> 00:18:51.491
 character of George III in
 
 00:18:51.531 --> 00:18:52.173
 a different way.
 
 00:18:52.212 --> 00:18:54.214
 He becomes the guy really
 
 00:18:54.295 --> 00:18:55.635
 helping to put down this
 
 00:18:56.297 --> 00:18:57.657
 very serious rebellion.
 
 00:18:57.758 --> 00:18:58.558
 And you're going to see
 
 00:18:58.598 --> 00:18:59.500
 repercussions of this
 
 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:02.000
 in British politics over the
 
 00:19:02.020 --> 00:19:03.662
 next generation or so.
 
 00:19:04.882 --> 00:19:05.922
 It happens they have this
 
 00:19:05.981 --> 00:19:08.323
 kind of crazy George Gordon
 
 00:19:08.363 --> 00:19:10.124
 who's the leader of it,
 
 00:19:10.223 --> 00:19:13.486
 but you also have these class issues,
 
 00:19:13.566 --> 00:19:15.185
 political issues springing
 
 00:19:15.326 --> 00:19:17.846
 up in British society
 
 00:19:18.407 --> 00:19:19.528
 during the course of this
 
 00:19:19.768 --> 00:19:21.009
 war that's going kind of
 
 00:19:21.048 --> 00:19:22.469
 badly for Britain and America.
 
 00:19:23.690 --> 00:19:25.569
 Yeah, Bob, it's really quite shocking.
 
 00:19:26.030 --> 00:19:27.631
 It's the greatest civil
 
 00:19:27.671 --> 00:19:29.152
 disturbance in British history.
 
 00:19:30.624 --> 00:19:31.505
 And somewhere between eight
 
 00:19:31.545 --> 00:19:32.384
 hundred and a thousand
 
 00:19:32.424 --> 00:19:34.365
 people are killed in the Gordon riots,
 
 00:19:36.166 --> 00:19:38.327
 many of them shot by the British Army,
 
 00:19:38.709 --> 00:19:41.190
 which is mustered to put
 
 00:19:41.230 --> 00:19:46.752
 down this week long spree
 
 00:19:46.873 --> 00:19:49.673
 that results in many, many fires.
 
 00:19:50.493 --> 00:19:52.515
 The greatest destruction to
 
 00:19:52.615 --> 00:19:55.537
 London until nineteen forty
 
 00:19:55.576 --> 00:19:56.958
 and the Great Blitz.
 
 00:19:57.678 --> 00:19:59.199
 That's how damaging it is.
 
 00:20:00.402 --> 00:20:01.383
 And, you know,
 
 00:20:01.423 --> 00:20:07.205
 it starts as an anti-Catholic protest.
 
 00:20:07.566 --> 00:20:09.207
 And it's inflamed by, as you say,
 
 00:20:09.267 --> 00:20:10.887
 this strange character,
 
 00:20:11.728 --> 00:20:12.628
 Lord George Gordon,
 
 00:20:12.669 --> 00:20:13.848
 who's a member of parliament,
 
 00:20:14.490 --> 00:20:15.529
 had a rich daddy.
 
 00:20:15.609 --> 00:20:18.852
 He's a wastrel of the first order.
 
 00:20:20.212 --> 00:20:20.613
 And he...
 
 00:20:21.396 --> 00:20:22.637
 is a demagogue and he
 
 00:20:22.698 --> 00:20:25.740
 manages to use the passions
 
 00:20:26.340 --> 00:20:27.521
 that are aroused when
 
 00:20:28.002 --> 00:20:30.384
 Parliament adopts some
 
 00:20:30.444 --> 00:20:31.965
 relatively minor
 
 00:20:32.426 --> 00:20:33.346
 adjustments to the
 
 00:20:33.488 --> 00:20:35.348
 anti-Catholic laws that
 
 00:20:35.730 --> 00:20:39.512
 really kept Roman Catholics in Britain
 
 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:41.701
 as mentioned in Ireland,
 
 00:20:41.942 --> 00:20:44.565
 from fully participating as
 
 00:20:45.125 --> 00:20:46.267
 citizens of the realm.
 
 00:20:47.448 --> 00:20:49.289
 So that they're able, for example,
 
 00:20:49.329 --> 00:20:50.611
 to sell real estate,
 
 00:20:50.991 --> 00:20:54.255
 which had been prohibited.
 
 00:20:54.295 --> 00:20:56.096
 Catholic church bells are
 
 00:20:56.116 --> 00:20:57.878
 permitted to ring on certain occasions.
 
 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.663
 And one of the main reasons for doing this
 
 00:21:02.298 --> 00:21:04.900
 is Roman Catholics are
 
 00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:06.381
 permitted to join the army.
 
 00:21:06.861 --> 00:21:10.463
 Now, that had been allowed,
 
 00:21:10.503 --> 00:21:12.945
 but under strict circumstances,
 
 00:21:13.145 --> 00:21:15.067
 you had to swear an oath to the king,
 
 00:21:17.028 --> 00:21:19.509
 which implied rejecting any
 
 00:21:19.589 --> 00:21:20.451
 papal allegiance.
 
 00:21:20.471 --> 00:21:22.633
 And this is all loosened
 
 00:21:22.712 --> 00:21:24.574
 slightly because the
 
 00:21:24.594 --> 00:21:26.414
 British really need more soldiers.
 
 00:21:26.615 --> 00:21:28.037
 This war has been going on
 
 00:21:28.076 --> 00:21:29.417
 now for five years.
 
 00:21:30.137 --> 00:21:31.318
 Casualties are high.
 
 00:21:31.905 --> 00:21:36.949
 cost in treasure to Britain
 
 00:21:37.148 --> 00:21:38.609
 is running very high.
 
 00:21:38.670 --> 00:21:39.690
 They're already deeply in
 
 00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:41.632
 debt from what's incurred
 
 00:21:41.652 --> 00:21:43.011
 during the Seven Years' War,
 
 00:21:43.172 --> 00:21:44.173
 where the first British
 
 00:21:44.232 --> 00:21:45.314
 Empire was created.
 
 00:21:46.473 --> 00:21:50.676
 So, excuse me,
 
 00:21:50.696 --> 00:21:53.038
 this relatively modest set
 
 00:21:53.337 --> 00:21:58.060
 of modifications to British
 
 00:21:58.201 --> 00:21:59.902
 law results in this
 
 00:22:00.778 --> 00:22:01.559
 Pandemonium.
 
 00:22:02.661 --> 00:22:06.766
 The mob gathers in early June,
 
 00:22:07.547 --> 00:22:11.211
 the mob is inflamed and
 
 00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:12.432
 they march on parliament.
 
 00:22:13.192 --> 00:22:14.013
 Members of parliament,
 
 00:22:14.054 --> 00:22:15.154
 both the House of Lords and
 
 00:22:15.174 --> 00:22:16.016
 the House of Commons are
 
 00:22:16.056 --> 00:22:17.478
 dragged from their carriages while
 
 00:22:17.978 --> 00:22:19.398
 driving through uh to
 
 00:22:19.479 --> 00:22:20.720
 parliament to and beaten uh
 
 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:23.582
 uh and then they begin
 
 00:22:23.622 --> 00:22:25.323
 setting fires and they burn
 
 00:22:25.502 --> 00:22:27.904
 first uh uh catholic uh
 
 00:22:29.165 --> 00:22:32.268
 ministries sardinia oh wow
 
 00:22:32.288 --> 00:22:35.349
 catholic ambassadors houses
 
 00:22:35.970 --> 00:22:37.191
 and it goes on and on night
 
 00:22:37.250 --> 00:22:41.153
 after night and it requires as you say
 
 00:22:42.983 --> 00:22:43.865
 George III,
 
 00:22:44.025 --> 00:22:45.385
 who has never been in the military,
 
 00:22:45.465 --> 00:22:47.448
 unlike previous kings,
 
 00:22:47.528 --> 00:22:49.829
 he's got no real military experience,
 
 00:22:49.869 --> 00:22:52.353
 but he's always at his best
 
 00:22:52.432 --> 00:22:54.894
 when he's in a crisis.
 
 00:22:55.275 --> 00:22:56.316
 And this is a crisis.
 
 00:22:57.698 --> 00:22:59.920
 He takes command and orders
 
 00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:01.401
 the necessary legal
 
 00:23:01.441 --> 00:23:03.462
 procedures be executed so
 
 00:23:03.502 --> 00:23:05.565
 that the army can be called out,
 
 00:23:05.605 --> 00:23:07.807
 the army can fire on the mob.
 
 00:23:09.587 --> 00:23:11.749
 The malefactors can be
 
 00:23:11.808 --> 00:23:13.088
 arrested and prosecuted.
 
 00:23:14.210 --> 00:23:17.751
 He's first and foremost
 
 00:23:17.791 --> 00:23:18.991
 among those responsible for
 
 00:23:19.012 --> 00:23:23.555
 finally quelling this conflagration.
 
 00:23:24.816 --> 00:23:26.036
 There are at one point
 
 00:23:26.476 --> 00:23:27.656
 something like twenty-eight
 
 00:23:27.696 --> 00:23:31.538
 fires burning across London.
 
 00:23:31.699 --> 00:23:34.661
 We see George rise to the occasion.
 
 00:23:37.078 --> 00:23:37.419
 You know,
 
 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.818
 it had come at a time when many
 
 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:41.519
 Britons were tired of the war.
 
 00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:43.500
 They were tired.
 
 00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:45.279
 They were tired of the expenditure.
 
 00:23:45.299 --> 00:23:46.500
 Yeah.
 
 00:23:46.520 --> 00:23:48.840
 And Congress, Congress,
 
 00:23:49.161 --> 00:23:53.321
 Parliament had just passed a resolution,
 
 00:23:53.642 --> 00:23:54.481
 shocking, really,
 
 00:23:55.001 --> 00:23:55.902
 saying that the power of
 
 00:23:55.942 --> 00:23:57.241
 the king is increasing and
 
 00:23:57.301 --> 00:23:58.123
 ought to be ought to be
 
 00:23:58.242 --> 00:23:59.103
 ought to diminish.
 
 00:23:59.282 --> 00:24:00.403
 Right.
 
 00:24:00.423 --> 00:24:00.682
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:00.923 --> 00:24:04.403
 Really an unheard of to the
 
 00:24:04.423 --> 00:24:05.203
 to the monarch.
 
 00:24:05.743 --> 00:24:05.923
 And
 
 00:24:07.215 --> 00:24:08.737
 The Gordon riots and the
 
 00:24:08.777 --> 00:24:10.478
 King's role in suppressing
 
 00:24:10.498 --> 00:24:13.861
 the riots and the King's stability,
 
 00:24:14.561 --> 00:24:16.482
 which is what most Britons come to see.
 
 00:24:16.522 --> 00:24:18.084
 This guy is rock solid.
 
 00:24:18.104 --> 00:24:20.645
 And it gives new life to the
 
 00:24:20.665 --> 00:24:23.307
 regime and gives new life to the war,
 
 00:24:23.367 --> 00:24:24.148
 as it turns out.
 
 00:24:25.809 --> 00:24:27.090
 People are saying, OK, well,
 
 00:24:27.611 --> 00:24:28.412
 if we've got to keep
 
 00:24:28.852 --> 00:24:30.133
 persisting in this war,
 
 00:24:30.252 --> 00:24:31.794
 which has become a global war now,
 
 00:24:33.355 --> 00:24:34.596
 if the King says so, OK,
 
 00:24:34.737 --> 00:24:35.376
 we're good with that.
 
 00:24:36.945 --> 00:24:39.729
 It does have significant repercussions,
 
 00:24:39.808 --> 00:24:40.369
 as you say.
 
 00:24:41.431 --> 00:24:43.192
 So we're talking with Rick Atkinson,
 
 00:24:43.393 --> 00:24:45.295
 author of The Fate of the Day,
 
 00:24:45.355 --> 00:24:46.616
 The War for America from
 
 00:24:46.656 --> 00:24:48.398
 Fort Ticonderoga to Charleston,
 
 00:24:48.939 --> 00:24:50.000
 or sets from seventeen
 
 00:24:50.040 --> 00:24:52.242
 seventy seven to seventeen eighty.
 
 00:24:53.104 --> 00:24:53.263
 And.
 
 00:24:55.685 --> 00:24:57.027
 One of the things that's really striking,
 
 00:24:57.047 --> 00:24:57.686
 I mean,
 
 00:24:57.727 --> 00:24:59.768
 you were briefly toyed with the
 
 00:24:59.807 --> 00:25:01.449
 idea of becoming an English
 
 00:25:01.509 --> 00:25:02.869
 professor and one imagines
 
 00:25:02.930 --> 00:25:03.750
 both what your life would
 
 00:25:03.769 --> 00:25:05.030
 have been like and what the
 
 00:25:06.530 --> 00:25:08.471
 history would be like without you in it.
 
 00:25:09.053 --> 00:25:10.873
 And so one of the things
 
 00:25:10.893 --> 00:25:12.153
 that does show in this book
 
 00:25:12.173 --> 00:25:13.115
 and not in a heavy handed
 
 00:25:13.154 --> 00:25:14.075
 way is you're really
 
 00:25:14.115 --> 00:25:15.395
 careful with words and with
 
 00:25:15.415 --> 00:25:16.715
 how you structure a story.
 
 00:25:16.736 --> 00:25:17.457
 So I wonder if we could talk
 
 00:25:17.477 --> 00:25:18.017
 a little bit about
 
 00:25:18.694 --> 00:25:19.576
 Who are some of the writers
 
 00:25:19.615 --> 00:25:21.518
 you look to for influence
 
 00:25:21.617 --> 00:25:23.559
 or who have inspired you along the way,
 
 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:25.041
 either writers of history
 
 00:25:25.061 --> 00:25:26.063
 or writers of fiction?
 
 00:25:26.663 --> 00:25:28.025
 Yeah, you're right.
 
 00:25:28.345 --> 00:25:29.486
 I thought I was on a
 
 00:25:30.086 --> 00:25:31.607
 trajectory to teach college
 
 00:25:31.688 --> 00:25:34.490
 English and I was in
 
 00:25:34.530 --> 00:25:37.875
 graduate school in English
 
 00:25:37.974 --> 00:25:39.256
 at University of Chicago.
 
 00:25:40.310 --> 00:25:42.872
 And to be honest, first of all,
 
 00:25:43.011 --> 00:25:44.692
 there were no jobs at that time.
 
 00:25:44.712 --> 00:25:46.292
 It was the mid-Nineteen Seventies.
 
 00:25:46.593 --> 00:25:47.953
 It was a real act of faith
 
 00:25:47.973 --> 00:25:50.154
 to continue on with a PhD.
 
 00:25:50.694 --> 00:25:52.415
 And for me, it seemed a little sedentary.
 
 00:25:52.476 --> 00:25:53.836
 I just couldn't quite see
 
 00:25:53.875 --> 00:25:57.998
 myself in the academy smoking a pipe.
 
 00:25:58.637 --> 00:26:00.519
 thinking large thoughts about literature.
 
 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:01.619
 Yeah.
 
 00:26:01.681 --> 00:26:03.182
 As much as I admire those
 
 00:26:03.221 --> 00:26:05.523
 who do and that lifestyle.
 
 00:26:07.025 --> 00:26:08.385
 So, you know, I wander off,
 
 00:26:08.425 --> 00:26:10.086
 I get a job in the newspaper business.
 
 00:26:10.146 --> 00:26:10.948
 I like it.
 
 00:26:11.147 --> 00:26:12.108
 I'm pretty good at it.
 
 00:26:12.189 --> 00:26:14.371
 And I persist in it for, you know,
 
 00:26:15.030 --> 00:26:16.512
 basically at least half a career.
 
 00:26:16.853 --> 00:26:16.952
 Yeah.
 
 00:26:18.455 --> 00:26:21.417
 But I also wanted to write,
 
 00:26:21.518 --> 00:26:23.319
 and I wanted to write books.
 
 00:26:23.539 --> 00:26:26.221
 And twice I took leave from
 
 00:26:26.241 --> 00:26:27.923
 the Washington Post and wrote books,
 
 00:26:28.044 --> 00:26:28.824
 one about the West Point
 
 00:26:28.864 --> 00:26:30.905
 class of the year,
 
 00:26:31.066 --> 00:26:32.047
 which lost more men in
 
 00:26:32.086 --> 00:26:33.788
 Vietnam than any West Point class.
 
 00:26:34.568 --> 00:26:36.270
 And the other about the Persian Gulf War,
 
 00:26:36.330 --> 00:26:37.912
 which I've been involved
 
 00:26:37.932 --> 00:26:38.873
 with as a journalist.
 
 00:26:42.353 --> 00:26:44.635
 You know, and then in nineteen ninety nine,
 
 00:26:44.695 --> 00:26:45.916
 I think it was I decided to
 
 00:26:45.957 --> 00:26:47.438
 take a flyer and basically
 
 00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:48.480
 quit my day job.
 
 00:26:48.539 --> 00:26:50.541
 And I took this project of
 
 00:26:50.561 --> 00:26:51.942
 writing about the American
 
 00:26:51.982 --> 00:26:52.743
 role in the liberation of
 
 00:26:52.804 --> 00:26:53.884
 Europe in World War Two.
 
 00:26:53.904 --> 00:26:55.267
 You know,
 
 00:26:55.467 --> 00:26:57.669
 the influences on me when I was
 
 00:26:58.690 --> 00:27:00.311
 an English major,
 
 00:27:00.332 --> 00:27:01.432
 an English graduate student.
 
 00:27:02.296 --> 00:27:03.457
 I loved American literature,
 
 00:27:03.477 --> 00:27:04.656
 and that was my focus.
 
 00:27:05.538 --> 00:27:06.939
 Faulkner was somebody that I
 
 00:27:07.019 --> 00:27:09.640
 read repeatedly.
 
 00:27:12.642 --> 00:27:13.521
 I don't think Faulkner's
 
 00:27:13.541 --> 00:27:15.423
 writing style would work for a historian,
 
 00:27:15.962 --> 00:27:18.065
 but- It's great, great stuff.
 
 00:27:18.444 --> 00:27:19.404
 It is great stuff.
 
 00:27:19.444 --> 00:27:20.266
 It is great stuff,
 
 00:27:20.346 --> 00:27:22.267
 and it's great storytelling.
 
 00:27:22.287 --> 00:27:23.548
 Right, yeah.
 
 00:27:23.728 --> 00:27:25.067
 And it's great character building.
 
 00:27:26.009 --> 00:27:27.189
 And these are things that
 
 00:27:27.209 --> 00:27:29.270
 are transferable to writing
 
 00:27:29.290 --> 00:27:29.931
 about history.
 
 00:27:30.657 --> 00:27:31.198
 or should be.
 
 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:33.778
 As a historian,
 
 00:27:33.838 --> 00:27:36.599
 and even before I took it on full time,
 
 00:27:37.260 --> 00:27:38.800
 you know, I, Shelby Foote,
 
 00:27:39.260 --> 00:27:41.241
 his trilogy on the Civil War,
 
 00:27:41.261 --> 00:27:43.323
 I go back periodically and
 
 00:27:43.343 --> 00:27:44.482
 read his eighty pages on
 
 00:27:44.544 --> 00:27:46.064
 Gettysburg just because
 
 00:27:47.525 --> 00:27:51.006
 it's eloquently done, the language.
 
 00:27:51.445 --> 00:27:53.567
 Now, those three volumes,
 
 00:27:53.987 --> 00:27:54.907
 three thousand pages
 
 00:27:54.928 --> 00:27:55.948
 without a single footnote,
 
 00:27:55.968 --> 00:27:58.388
 I don't get away with that today.
 
 00:27:58.409 --> 00:27:58.449
 No.
 
 00:27:59.373 --> 00:28:01.255
 um it's he does not adhere
 
 00:28:01.295 --> 00:28:02.736
 to the strictures of the
 
 00:28:02.776 --> 00:28:04.277
 academy which I do and I
 
 00:28:04.356 --> 00:28:06.438
 fully endorse yeah you have
 
 00:28:06.458 --> 00:28:07.699
 a lot of footnotes which I
 
 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:08.519
 have a lot of footnotes
 
 00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:09.140
 yeah there's two hundred
 
 00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:10.741
 pages of back matter in
 
 00:28:11.122 --> 00:28:12.222
 both of these volumes on
 
 00:28:12.242 --> 00:28:13.824
 the revolution and that's
 
 00:28:13.864 --> 00:28:16.045
 because I believe that I'm
 
 00:28:16.846 --> 00:28:19.188
 fully accountable for every
 
 00:28:19.248 --> 00:28:20.808
 fact that's in there and
 
 00:28:22.049 --> 00:28:22.609
 the way that you're
 
 00:28:22.630 --> 00:28:24.191
 accountable is you you note
 
 00:28:24.230 --> 00:28:26.573
 it and the annotations are
 
 00:28:27.304 --> 00:28:27.804
 important.
 
 00:28:28.203 --> 00:28:29.704
 Bruce Catton is another one.
 
 00:28:30.164 --> 00:28:31.285
 Bruce Catton wrote not one,
 
 00:28:31.325 --> 00:28:34.224
 but two trilogies on the Civil War.
 
 00:28:35.465 --> 00:28:36.685
 I go back periodically and
 
 00:28:36.746 --> 00:28:38.326
 reread A Stillness at Appomattox,
 
 00:28:38.346 --> 00:28:39.547
 which is the third volume
 
 00:28:40.406 --> 00:28:41.386
 in one of those trilogies.
 
 00:28:41.626 --> 00:28:43.326
 And it's just brilliant.
 
 00:28:43.366 --> 00:28:44.428
 It's beautifully written.
 
 00:28:45.488 --> 00:28:46.968
 It's concise in a way that I
 
 00:28:47.167 --> 00:28:49.009
 don't seem to be able to achieve.
 
 00:28:50.409 --> 00:28:54.589
 And it tells a story with characters
 
 00:28:55.463 --> 00:28:57.664
 in a way that taps into a
 
 00:28:57.724 --> 00:28:59.666
 deep emotional vein that I
 
 00:28:59.686 --> 00:29:00.507
 think is important when
 
 00:29:00.527 --> 00:29:01.407
 writing about war.
 
 00:29:02.548 --> 00:29:04.549
 It is a very, very emotional thing.
 
 00:29:05.309 --> 00:29:06.730
 And I don't think you
 
 00:29:06.770 --> 00:29:09.932
 capture it if you try to be
 
 00:29:09.972 --> 00:29:10.792
 too cold about it.
 
 00:29:12.413 --> 00:29:13.575
 Those are some of the, you know,
 
 00:29:13.595 --> 00:29:14.095
 there are many,
 
 00:29:16.660 --> 00:29:18.881
 My friend Sir Max Hastings
 
 00:29:18.921 --> 00:29:21.281
 has been a very successful
 
 00:29:21.701 --> 00:29:23.623
 writer of military history in Britain,
 
 00:29:23.643 --> 00:29:25.282
 a former journalist like I am.
 
 00:29:26.364 --> 00:29:29.045
 Another friend, Sir Anthony Beaver,
 
 00:29:29.525 --> 00:29:30.865
 also a really good former
 
 00:29:30.904 --> 00:29:31.945
 British Army officer,
 
 00:29:32.486 --> 00:29:34.247
 a very good military historian.
 
 00:29:34.987 --> 00:29:36.027
 These are people that I
 
 00:29:36.227 --> 00:29:37.827
 admire and I study what
 
 00:29:37.867 --> 00:29:40.108
 they do and to some extent
 
 00:29:40.128 --> 00:29:41.088
 try to emulate what they do.
 
 00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:46.090
 I'm wondering how you go about avoiding
 
 00:29:46.888 --> 00:29:49.191
 cliches that come up all the time.
 
 00:29:49.270 --> 00:29:49.531
 I mean,
 
 00:29:49.571 --> 00:29:50.833
 particularly in writing about such
 
 00:29:50.873 --> 00:29:51.834
 a well-known event,
 
 00:29:51.894 --> 00:29:53.494
 well-known series of events,
 
 00:29:53.575 --> 00:29:54.476
 and you have a way of
 
 00:29:55.596 --> 00:29:57.159
 making it a surprise and
 
 00:29:57.278 --> 00:29:58.279
 leaving us in doubt.
 
 00:29:58.299 --> 00:29:58.500
 I mean,
 
 00:29:58.539 --> 00:29:59.820
 I finished this book just as I
 
 00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:00.701
 finished the first one,
 
 00:30:00.781 --> 00:30:02.123
 wondering how either side
 
 00:30:02.143 --> 00:30:03.124
 could win this thing.
 
 00:30:03.144 --> 00:30:10.872
 And if you have any tips for writers.
 
 00:30:11.051 --> 00:30:12.032
 Yeah, I mean,
 
 00:30:13.226 --> 00:30:14.586
 David McCullough one time said,
 
 00:30:15.166 --> 00:30:16.146
 in good narrative writing,
 
 00:30:16.166 --> 00:30:17.167
 there's no such thing as a
 
 00:30:17.248 --> 00:30:18.327
 foreseeable future.
 
 00:30:19.669 --> 00:30:21.388
 I think that's a brilliant insight.
 
 00:30:21.429 --> 00:30:23.029
 It is, yeah.
 
 00:30:23.089 --> 00:30:25.711
 And I think that what he's telling us,
 
 00:30:25.851 --> 00:30:27.912
 and I try to adhere to it
 
 00:30:27.932 --> 00:30:30.053
 because he certainly is a
 
 00:30:30.093 --> 00:30:31.232
 master of the genre,
 
 00:30:31.252 --> 00:30:33.273
 both as a biographer and as a historian,
 
 00:30:34.673 --> 00:30:39.655
 that you want the reader to
 
 00:30:40.116 --> 00:30:41.037
 be in the moment.
 
 00:30:41.771 --> 00:30:45.255
 You want the reader to see it, hear it,
 
 00:30:46.315 --> 00:30:47.776
 smell it, feel it.
 
 00:30:49.577 --> 00:30:52.160
 And that requires lots of
 
 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:53.299
 panning for a little flecks
 
 00:30:53.340 --> 00:30:55.342
 of gold in the historical record.
 
 00:30:56.823 --> 00:31:00.125
 Looking for evidence of what
 
 00:31:00.165 --> 00:31:02.067
 it did smell like and what
 
 00:31:02.126 --> 00:31:03.288
 it did sound like.
 
 00:31:04.028 --> 00:31:05.429
 Looking for evidence of what
 
 00:31:05.950 --> 00:31:08.372
 those at Brandywine or
 
 00:31:08.432 --> 00:31:09.992
 Germantown or Saratoga
 
 00:31:10.874 --> 00:31:12.455
 in the Congress or wherever,
 
 00:31:12.476 --> 00:31:13.957
 or in London or in Versailles,
 
 00:31:14.877 --> 00:31:16.199
 what they saw, what they felt.
 
 00:31:17.721 --> 00:31:19.261
 And I think if you're
 
 00:31:19.301 --> 00:31:20.683
 successful in doing that
 
 00:31:20.723 --> 00:31:23.385
 and are able to tell the story as a story,
 
 00:31:23.506 --> 00:31:25.147
 as it should be told,
 
 00:31:25.188 --> 00:31:29.332
 because it is a story, then you can,
 
 00:31:30.413 --> 00:31:30.753
 even if
 
 00:31:31.653 --> 00:31:34.154
 the reader is well-versed in
 
 00:31:34.634 --> 00:31:36.756
 this tale and knows what
 
 00:31:36.796 --> 00:31:38.176
 happens at Saratoga and
 
 00:31:38.698 --> 00:31:41.499
 knows how the revolution ends and so on,
 
 00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:43.540
 you can somehow transport
 
 00:31:43.580 --> 00:31:45.682
 them and allow them to
 
 00:31:47.903 --> 00:31:49.064
 rediscover it for the first
 
 00:31:49.104 --> 00:31:50.765
 time in some ways.
 
 00:31:50.805 --> 00:31:52.866
 To recognize, first of all,
 
 00:31:52.886 --> 00:31:54.307
 that there are little
 
 00:31:54.327 --> 00:31:55.627
 brushstrokes of detail that
 
 00:31:55.909 --> 00:31:57.249
 they've not read before.
 
 00:31:57.269 --> 00:31:59.711
 And that helps,
 
 00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:01.051
 those little flecks of gold.
 
 00:32:02.371 --> 00:32:04.672
 And second, that, you know,
 
 00:32:04.692 --> 00:32:05.752
 perhaps the characters are
 
 00:32:05.772 --> 00:32:07.934
 introduced to you in a different way,
 
 00:32:08.115 --> 00:32:09.695
 trying to avoid the
 
 00:32:09.736 --> 00:32:13.878
 stereotypes of Washington or whomever,
 
 00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:16.181
 certainly the stereotype of George III,
 
 00:32:16.201 --> 00:32:18.242
 who might take great pains
 
 00:32:18.282 --> 00:32:21.085
 to demolish the American
 
 00:32:21.105 --> 00:32:22.766
 stereotype of the king.
 
 00:32:22.786 --> 00:32:25.688
 So that, you know, those are my ambitions.
 
 00:32:25.807 --> 00:32:26.388
 And, you know,
 
 00:32:26.429 --> 00:32:27.690
 sometimes I think it works and
 
 00:32:28.465 --> 00:32:29.346
 It's up to the reader to
 
 00:32:29.366 --> 00:32:30.527
 decide whether it works
 
 00:32:30.646 --> 00:32:32.208
 sufficiently to pull it off.
 
 00:32:32.768 --> 00:32:33.307
 Right.
 
 00:32:33.347 --> 00:32:34.169
 Yeah, you bring in,
 
 00:32:34.229 --> 00:32:35.429
 you said those flecks of gold,
 
 00:32:35.449 --> 00:32:36.170
 those details,
 
 00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:37.069
 like what kind of birds
 
 00:32:37.089 --> 00:32:37.671
 they would have heard
 
 00:32:37.711 --> 00:32:40.932
 singing or what kind of plants were in,
 
 00:32:41.031 --> 00:32:42.573
 at what stage that particular time.
 
 00:32:42.613 --> 00:32:43.973
 I wonder where you get that
 
 00:32:44.054 --> 00:32:45.874
 insight into this natural world,
 
 00:32:45.894 --> 00:32:46.394
 which would have been
 
 00:32:46.454 --> 00:32:48.796
 really so apparent to them.
 
 00:32:48.855 --> 00:32:49.816
 But for us,
 
 00:32:49.855 --> 00:32:51.136
 sometimes we're looking at it
 
 00:32:51.217 --> 00:32:52.218
 from a different point of view.
 
 00:32:52.278 --> 00:32:54.259
 Don't see that world in the cinema.
 
 00:32:54.298 --> 00:32:54.439
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:55.499 --> 00:32:57.221
 Yeah, that's a good insight, Bob.
 
 00:32:57.260 --> 00:32:58.021
 I think it's true.
 
 00:32:58.082 --> 00:32:59.163
 I think their relationship
 
 00:32:59.182 --> 00:33:00.683
 to the natural world tends
 
 00:33:00.703 --> 00:33:02.885
 to be different than ours typically,
 
 00:33:03.185 --> 00:33:04.067
 certainly than mine.
 
 00:33:05.127 --> 00:33:06.710
 You know, I'm in a comfortable office.
 
 00:33:06.730 --> 00:33:09.291
 It's a really cold day in
 
 00:33:09.593 --> 00:33:10.753
 late May in Washington,
 
 00:33:11.173 --> 00:33:12.394
 and I'm not out in the world.
 
 00:33:12.454 --> 00:33:17.680
 I'm inside.
 
 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:18.340
 You know, I
 
 00:33:19.817 --> 00:33:21.459
 I'm always looking in the
 
 00:33:21.499 --> 00:33:22.299
 historical record,
 
 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:23.519
 whether it's in the letters
 
 00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:24.980
 or in diaries or whatever
 
 00:33:25.060 --> 00:33:29.202
 for those who record their surroundings.
 
 00:33:30.243 --> 00:33:33.525
 When I go to a place like Valley Forge,
 
 00:33:33.565 --> 00:33:35.205
 for example,
 
 00:33:36.227 --> 00:33:38.188
 or I can remember doing this
 
 00:33:38.268 --> 00:33:39.347
 on the little Neshaminy
 
 00:33:39.387 --> 00:33:40.628
 Creek where Washington was
 
 00:33:40.689 --> 00:33:41.910
 camped for several weeks
 
 00:33:42.470 --> 00:33:43.269
 before the seventeen
 
 00:33:43.309 --> 00:33:45.290
 seventy seven campaign began in earnest.
 
 00:33:45.351 --> 00:33:47.152
 It's just north of Philadelphia.
 
 00:33:48.907 --> 00:33:50.148
 I have an app on my phone
 
 00:33:50.169 --> 00:33:51.888
 that shows me what the flora is.
 
 00:33:51.909 --> 00:33:54.069
 I can take a picture and
 
 00:33:54.131 --> 00:33:55.510
 it's extraordinary.
 
 00:33:55.530 --> 00:33:56.811
 And it will tell me what it is.
 
 00:33:57.571 --> 00:34:01.233
 And I know that these plants, these trees,
 
 00:34:02.134 --> 00:34:04.615
 these shrubs, these flowers were there,
 
 00:34:04.935 --> 00:34:06.096
 two hundred fifty years ago.
 
 00:34:07.477 --> 00:34:09.918
 I know it because, for example,
 
 00:34:09.938 --> 00:34:10.717
 at Valley Forge,
 
 00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:12.739
 they take some pains to
 
 00:34:12.759 --> 00:34:15.400
 make sure that they're
 
 00:34:15.420 --> 00:34:18.021
 replicating what life was like there.
 
 00:34:19.123 --> 00:34:21.684
 They try to purge exotic
 
 00:34:21.704 --> 00:34:23.324
 plants that are invasive and so on.
 
 00:34:24.806 --> 00:34:26.106
 That I find very useful.
 
 00:34:26.126 --> 00:34:27.545
 I find it as a way to
 
 00:34:27.626 --> 00:34:30.967
 connect with those who were
 
 00:34:30.987 --> 00:34:32.688
 there two hundred and fifty years ago.
 
 00:34:34.487 --> 00:34:35.907
 There's another app that I have,
 
 00:34:36.708 --> 00:34:37.929
 and it records bird songs
 
 00:34:37.949 --> 00:34:39.208
 and tells me what the birds are.
 
 00:34:40.469 --> 00:34:41.969
 I'm an amateur birder,
 
 00:34:42.869 --> 00:34:44.451
 so I'm interested in them.
 
 00:34:44.570 --> 00:34:46.150
 I'm not as good as many
 
 00:34:47.884 --> 00:34:48.684
 But this helps.
 
 00:34:50.025 --> 00:34:51.507
 So, you know,
 
 00:34:51.527 --> 00:34:54.710
 these are little tricks of the trade.
 
 00:34:54.791 --> 00:34:58.034
 I spend a lot of time in the field.
 
 00:34:58.295 --> 00:35:00.137
 I think it's important to see the ground,
 
 00:35:00.657 --> 00:35:01.818
 to try to understand the ground.
 
 00:35:01.858 --> 00:35:03.300
 It's hard, as you well know.
 
 00:35:04.581 --> 00:35:05.561
 Long Island doesn't look
 
 00:35:05.601 --> 00:35:06.262
 much like Long Island.
 
 00:35:06.282 --> 00:35:06.543
 I know, yeah.
 
 00:35:06.563 --> 00:35:07.003
 That's it.
 
 00:35:09.347 --> 00:35:10.728
 Boston is completely different.
 
 00:35:10.748 --> 00:35:12.730
 The outlines of the city are
 
 00:35:12.929 --> 00:35:13.751
 utterly different.
 
 00:35:15.211 --> 00:35:16.391
 So you have to use your
 
 00:35:16.411 --> 00:35:17.413
 imagination in some extent.
 
 00:35:18.353 --> 00:35:20.215
 But contemporary maps help.
 
 00:35:22.016 --> 00:35:24.376
 So that's part of what I'm about.
 
 00:35:24.456 --> 00:35:26.398
 I'm wondering, Rick,
 
 00:35:26.418 --> 00:35:28.019
 we're talking with Rick Atkinson,
 
 00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:29.820
 author of Fate of the Day,
 
 00:35:29.860 --> 00:35:30.940
 The War for America,
 
 00:35:30.981 --> 00:35:32.041
 as well as many other
 
 00:35:32.523 --> 00:35:33.362
 distinguished books,
 
 00:35:33.382 --> 00:35:35.143
 I'm wondering if any
 
 00:35:35.264 --> 00:35:36.965
 particular place has moved
 
 00:35:36.985 --> 00:35:38.804
 you more than another,
 
 00:35:39.164 --> 00:35:42.106
 thinking about the War for Independence.
 
 00:35:42.666 --> 00:35:43.686
 We could talk about D-Day,
 
 00:35:43.726 --> 00:35:45.246
 we could talk about Sicily,
 
 00:35:45.527 --> 00:35:46.407
 lots of other places,
 
 00:35:46.427 --> 00:35:48.487
 but what about in the American story?
 
 00:35:48.548 --> 00:35:49.728
 What's the place you've gone
 
 00:35:49.748 --> 00:35:53.030
 to that has struck you more than others?
 
 00:35:53.070 --> 00:35:54.710
 You know, Bob,
 
 00:35:55.710 --> 00:35:56.871
 I think the ground speaks to
 
 00:35:56.891 --> 00:35:58.612
 you if you're listening carefully.
 
 00:35:59.545 --> 00:36:02.188
 And I have spent a lot of
 
 00:36:02.228 --> 00:36:03.449
 time on those World War II
 
 00:36:03.489 --> 00:36:04.690
 battlefields in North
 
 00:36:04.769 --> 00:36:06.291
 Africa and Sicily and Italy
 
 00:36:06.311 --> 00:36:08.213
 and Western Europe.
 
 00:36:08.233 --> 00:36:10.014
 I've been on most of the
 
 00:36:10.393 --> 00:36:11.715
 substantial battlefields
 
 00:36:12.396 --> 00:36:13.436
 and in the cemeteries.
 
 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:16.141
 And we don't have cemeteries
 
 00:36:16.442 --> 00:36:18.744
 like that for the revolution.
 
 00:36:19.204 --> 00:36:19.766
 I'm talking about the
 
 00:36:19.786 --> 00:36:21.128
 American battle monuments,
 
 00:36:22.728 --> 00:36:23.710
 which are beautifully
 
 00:36:23.769 --> 00:36:25.072
 maintained and they're so
 
 00:36:25.713 --> 00:36:26.753
 powerful and moving.
 
 00:36:27.614 --> 00:36:28.976
 And yet you can still feel
 
 00:36:29.016 --> 00:36:30.737
 the same emotion, I think.
 
 00:36:31.298 --> 00:36:33.440
 So if you go to Germantown today,
 
 00:36:33.581 --> 00:36:34.322
 now Germantown,
 
 00:36:35.163 --> 00:36:36.403
 which is five miles north of
 
 00:36:36.443 --> 00:36:38.925
 philadelphia and is uh you
 
 00:36:38.985 --> 00:36:40.666
 know quite different than
 
 00:36:40.706 --> 00:36:42.387
 it was in the seventeen
 
 00:36:42.407 --> 00:36:43.487
 seventy seven october
 
 00:36:43.507 --> 00:36:45.510
 seventeen seventy seven yet
 
 00:36:45.530 --> 00:36:50.672
 um the the central focus of
 
 00:36:50.733 --> 00:36:52.193
 the battle of germantown on
 
 00:36:52.273 --> 00:36:54.114
 october fourth seventy
 
 00:36:54.155 --> 00:36:55.596
 seven is still there and
 
 00:36:55.615 --> 00:36:56.976
 that is the shoe house
 
 00:36:58.197 --> 00:36:59.918
 shoehouse belonged to uh
 
 00:36:59.978 --> 00:37:01.280
 benjamin chu who had been
 
 00:37:02.998 --> 00:37:04.079
 a member of the Pennsylvania
 
 00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:04.739
 Supreme Court.
 
 00:37:04.780 --> 00:37:05.601
 He was a loyalist.
 
 00:37:06.141 --> 00:37:07.041
 At the time of the battle,
 
 00:37:07.061 --> 00:37:07.922
 he's under arrest.
 
 00:37:07.942 --> 00:37:09.222
 He's being held in
 
 00:37:09.922 --> 00:37:11.344
 confinement in New Jersey.
 
 00:37:12.284 --> 00:37:16.266
 His house was then the biggest,
 
 00:37:17.445 --> 00:37:22.389
 most overwhelmingly stolid
 
 00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:24.309
 house in Germantown.
 
 00:37:24.769 --> 00:37:26.632
 It's a stone house.
 
 00:37:26.652 --> 00:37:26.851
 Yeah.
 
 00:37:26.952 --> 00:37:29.233
 And yes, it's made out of schist.
 
 00:37:29.773 --> 00:37:31.835
 So it looks like a fortress
 
 00:37:31.956 --> 00:37:33.518
 and the British make it a fortress.
 
 00:37:33.577 --> 00:37:35.579
 So as the battle is
 
 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:37.141
 unfolding and things are
 
 00:37:37.181 --> 00:37:38.242
 going well for the Americans,
 
 00:37:38.302 --> 00:37:39.523
 it's a surprise attack that
 
 00:37:40.083 --> 00:37:42.125
 Washington has organized,
 
 00:37:42.144 --> 00:37:43.947
 being inherently aggressive.
 
 00:37:44.666 --> 00:37:45.688
 And it's going very well
 
 00:37:45.788 --> 00:37:47.690
 until they get to the Chew House,
 
 00:37:47.869 --> 00:37:49.550
 which is also called Cliveden.
 
 00:37:50.411 --> 00:37:52.454
 And a British regiment
 
 00:37:53.048 --> 00:37:54.630
 probably fewer than a hundred men,
 
 00:37:55.570 --> 00:37:57.512
 take refuge in the house of
 
 00:37:57.532 --> 00:37:58.952
 a very capable commander.
 
 00:37:59.472 --> 00:38:01.233
 They barricade the windows,
 
 00:38:01.273 --> 00:38:02.894
 they barricade the doors,
 
 00:38:03.594 --> 00:38:04.414
 and they hold out.
 
 00:38:04.615 --> 00:38:06.797
 And when you're there,
 
 00:38:06.976 --> 00:38:08.036
 it doesn't take much
 
 00:38:08.097 --> 00:38:10.699
 imagination to see what
 
 00:38:10.858 --> 00:38:12.920
 happened that morning.
 
 00:38:14.101 --> 00:38:15.362
 What happens is that
 
 00:38:15.601 --> 00:38:17.842
 Washington is consulting Henry Knox,
 
 00:38:17.862 --> 00:38:21.045
 his artillery chief, and Knox says,
 
 00:38:22.213 --> 00:38:23.313
 It would be militarily
 
 00:38:23.393 --> 00:38:24.514
 improper to leave a
 
 00:38:24.554 --> 00:38:26.635
 fortress in the rear as we
 
 00:38:26.675 --> 00:38:29.496
 go past it on our way to
 
 00:38:29.596 --> 00:38:31.115
 rounding British encampment
 
 00:38:31.195 --> 00:38:32.637
 in the middle of Germantown.
 
 00:38:33.936 --> 00:38:35.737
 This is bad advice.
 
 00:38:36.858 --> 00:38:37.938
 What should have happened is
 
 00:38:37.978 --> 00:38:39.398
 they put a regiment or two
 
 00:38:39.458 --> 00:38:41.380
 around the house to isolate it.
 
 00:38:41.900 --> 00:38:42.981
 If the British come out,
 
 00:38:43.181 --> 00:38:44.260
 they're overwhelmed.
 
 00:38:45.141 --> 00:38:46.342
 Washington listens to them.
 
 00:38:47.275 --> 00:38:48.657
 Several aides are also
 
 00:38:48.717 --> 00:38:50.177
 listening to this colloquy
 
 00:38:50.197 --> 00:38:51.018
 that's going on,
 
 00:38:52.059 --> 00:38:53.018
 including Alexander
 
 00:38:53.059 --> 00:38:54.239
 Hamilton and John Lawrence.
 
 00:38:54.260 --> 00:38:55.460
 And they're basically saying, no,
 
 00:38:55.481 --> 00:38:55.920
 that's wrong.
 
 00:38:56.021 --> 00:38:57.342
 That's not right.
 
 00:38:57.382 --> 00:38:58.061
 Go around.
 
 00:38:58.141 --> 00:38:58.623
 Keep going.
 
 00:38:58.643 --> 00:38:59.603
 You've got momentum.
 
 00:39:00.163 --> 00:39:01.523
 Well, Washington,
 
 00:39:01.923 --> 00:39:04.266
 the whole momentum of the
 
 00:39:04.286 --> 00:39:06.507
 battle stops there.
 
 00:39:07.708 --> 00:39:08.047
 You know,
 
 00:39:08.407 --> 00:39:09.989
 and it turns into a route for the
 
 00:39:10.009 --> 00:39:10.329
 Americans.
 
 00:39:10.349 --> 00:39:11.869
 The British counterattack.
 
 00:39:11.889 --> 00:39:13.130
 They pull themselves together.
 
 00:39:13.914 --> 00:39:14.655
 It's a counterattack.
 
 00:39:14.675 --> 00:39:16.396
 They drive the Americans out
 
 00:39:16.436 --> 00:39:17.215
 of Germantown.
 
 00:39:17.295 --> 00:39:20.416
 It's another pretty substantial defeat.
 
 00:39:22.117 --> 00:39:24.036
 You know, when I'm there,
 
 00:39:24.436 --> 00:39:26.137
 and you can go into the Chew House,
 
 00:39:26.177 --> 00:39:27.858
 it's a bit dilapidated.
 
 00:39:27.898 --> 00:39:28.958
 And we'll hope that the
 
 00:39:29.597 --> 00:39:31.097
 state of Pennsylvania or
 
 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:32.599
 Philadelphia County or
 
 00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:34.898
 whatever does the right
 
 00:39:34.918 --> 00:39:36.099
 thing and makes sure that
 
 00:39:36.139 --> 00:39:38.059
 it is preserved for future generations.
 
 00:39:39.784 --> 00:39:41.425
 again you can feel it you
 
 00:39:41.465 --> 00:39:43.606
 can feel it wow there are
 
 00:39:43.646 --> 00:39:44.365
 quite a few men who are
 
 00:39:44.405 --> 00:39:45.766
 killed right there on that
 
 00:39:45.806 --> 00:39:47.626
 doorstep trying to get into
 
 00:39:47.646 --> 00:39:49.507
 the windows the accounts of
 
 00:39:49.547 --> 00:39:52.710
 it are brutal and vivid and
 
 00:39:52.769 --> 00:39:54.971
 so when I'm at a place like
 
 00:39:55.010 --> 00:39:57.972
 that uh I feel back two
 
 00:39:57.992 --> 00:40:00.072
 hundred fifty years ago the
 
 00:40:00.112 --> 00:40:03.094
 the anguish of that moment wow well
 
 00:40:03.748 --> 00:40:04.969
 Thinking both about James
 
 00:40:05.010 --> 00:40:06.271
 Madison and Abraham Lincoln
 
 00:40:06.311 --> 00:40:08.733
 evoking those every patriot
 
 00:40:08.773 --> 00:40:10.233
 grave and battlefield,
 
 00:40:10.293 --> 00:40:12.054
 those mystic chords of
 
 00:40:12.114 --> 00:40:13.295
 memory that then stretch to
 
 00:40:13.356 --> 00:40:14.516
 every heart and hearthstone,
 
 00:40:14.536 --> 00:40:16.579
 you can really feel it from these places,
 
 00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:18.840
 which you really bring to
 
 00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.061
 life in this book.
 
 00:40:20.081 --> 00:40:22.402
 I know we could go on all day, I know,
 
 00:40:22.463 --> 00:40:24.664
 but you have to get to volume three.
 
 00:40:26.827 --> 00:40:27.907
 Any last words you would
 
 00:40:27.927 --> 00:40:29.869
 like to give us or let you go, Rick?
 
 00:40:31.141 --> 00:40:31.902
 No, Bob, thank you.
 
 00:40:31.922 --> 00:40:34.246
 It's always a delight talking with you.
 
 00:40:34.306 --> 00:40:35.228
 And, you know,
 
 00:40:35.248 --> 00:40:37.190
 I always learn things from you.
 
 00:40:37.210 --> 00:40:39.552
 I, you know,
 
 00:40:39.813 --> 00:40:41.835
 I think that as we swing into
 
 00:40:41.876 --> 00:40:43.358
 the semi-quincentennial,
 
 00:40:43.518 --> 00:40:44.438
 the two hundred fiftieth
 
 00:40:45.179 --> 00:40:47.402
 anniversary of the country's founding.
 
 00:40:47.967 --> 00:40:49.268
 It's a real opportunity for
 
 00:40:49.347 --> 00:40:52.831
 people to renew their ties
 
 00:40:52.871 --> 00:40:55.454
 to that generation of
 
 00:40:55.474 --> 00:40:58.117
 founders and those who we
 
 00:40:58.157 --> 00:40:59.298
 don't consider founders,
 
 00:40:59.438 --> 00:41:00.679
 but we're just there and
 
 00:41:01.001 --> 00:41:02.541
 we're participating in the
 
 00:41:02.581 --> 00:41:04.905
 struggle for independence.
 
 00:41:07.603 --> 00:41:08.523
 in the same way that we did
 
 00:41:08.543 --> 00:41:09.463
 in the bicentennial,
 
 00:41:09.503 --> 00:41:10.465
 it's kind of an opportunity
 
 00:41:10.485 --> 00:41:11.925
 to renew vows of sorts.
 
 00:41:12.846 --> 00:41:14.947
 But I'm hopeful that people
 
 00:41:14.967 --> 00:41:16.166
 will take the opportunity
 
 00:41:16.768 --> 00:41:18.969
 again to feel a connection
 
 00:41:20.429 --> 00:41:23.771
 with those forebearers of ours.
 
 00:41:24.150 --> 00:41:25.771
 Yeah, very true.
 
 00:41:25.791 --> 00:41:26.572
 So thank you so much.
 
 00:41:26.592 --> 00:41:27.913
 We've been talking with,
 
 00:41:28.032 --> 00:41:29.793
 and the crowds we've seen at events.
 
 00:41:30.315 --> 00:41:30.894
 Last weekend,
 
 00:41:30.914 --> 00:41:32.795
 we had tremendous events at Chelsea Creek,
 
 00:41:32.956 --> 00:41:34.697
 a place that hasn't been commemorated,
 
 00:41:34.757 --> 00:41:34.876
 but
 
 00:41:35.583 --> 00:41:37.425
 And next week we have Bunker
 
 00:41:37.465 --> 00:41:39.306
 Hill and we've had events
 
 00:41:39.405 --> 00:41:40.947
 at Lexington and Concord.
 
 00:41:41.327 --> 00:41:42.786
 People are coming out for this.
 
 00:41:42.847 --> 00:41:44.807
 People do want this sense of renewal,
 
 00:41:44.867 --> 00:41:48.389
 the sense of identifying with this cause,
 
 00:41:48.429 --> 00:41:50.670
 this story, which really is so important.
 
 00:41:51.311 --> 00:41:52.192
 And we've seen that actually
 
 00:41:52.251 --> 00:41:55.213
 also in the response to our podcast.
 
 00:41:55.253 --> 00:41:56.833
 We've had eighty thousand
 
 00:41:56.873 --> 00:41:58.755
 downloads of episodes in
 
 00:41:58.894 --> 00:41:59.835
 actually in one hundred
 
 00:41:59.875 --> 00:42:01.456
 countries and thirty eight
 
 00:42:01.496 --> 00:42:02.416
 hundred cities.
 
 00:42:02.436 --> 00:42:02.536
 Wow.
 
 00:42:04.650 --> 00:42:05.530
 And every week we like to
 
 00:42:05.570 --> 00:42:06.952
 thank some folks we know
 
 00:42:06.992 --> 00:42:08.733
 are regular listeners.
 
 00:42:08.753 --> 00:42:09.552
 So if you're in one of these
 
 00:42:09.592 --> 00:42:11.454
 places and want to connect
 
 00:42:11.474 --> 00:42:12.815
 with Jonathan Lane and get
 
 00:42:12.835 --> 00:42:13.355
 some of our Rev.
 
 00:42:13.375 --> 00:42:14.355
 Two Fifty swag,
 
 00:42:14.375 --> 00:42:15.715
 send him an email at jlane
 
 00:42:15.755 --> 00:42:18.117
 at revolution two five o dot org.
 
 00:42:18.597 --> 00:42:20.257
 So this week I want to thank
 
 00:42:20.318 --> 00:42:23.338
 our listeners in Pittsburgh, Reston,
 
 00:42:23.358 --> 00:42:23.878
 Virginia,
 
 00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:25.820
 here in Massachusetts at Taunton,
 
 00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:28.460
 Reading and Medford, Passaic, New Jersey,
 
 00:42:28.561 --> 00:42:30.202
 Spartanburg, South Carolina,
 
 00:42:30.934 --> 00:42:32.516
 And Wayne, Pennsylvania,
 
 00:42:32.775 --> 00:42:34.036
 named for a character we
 
 00:42:34.056 --> 00:42:35.157
 didn't talk about today,
 
 00:42:35.177 --> 00:42:36.559
 but maybe next time we can.
 
 00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:39.282
 Heath and Steubenville in Ohio,
 
 00:42:39.543 --> 00:42:40.262
 named for two other
 
 00:42:40.284 --> 00:42:41.485
 revolutionary characters,
 
 00:42:41.525 --> 00:42:43.847
 as well as Tel Aviv, Frankfurt,
 
 00:42:44.086 --> 00:42:45.568
 all places between and beyond.
 
 00:42:45.608 --> 00:42:46.590
 Thanks for joining us.
 
 00:42:46.789 --> 00:42:48.251
 And now we'll be piped out
 
 00:42:48.672 --> 00:42:49.672
 on the road to Boston.