From Trenton to Yorktown with John R. Maass

What is a "turning point"?  We talk with John Mass, whose new book From Trenton to Yorktown:  Turning Points in the Revolutionary War looks at five episodes that changed the course of the war and lead toward the American victory.  Which were the decisive moments?  Listen to find out! 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:00.336 --> 00:00:01.056
 Hello, everyone.
 
 00:00:01.116 --> 00:00:02.436
 Welcome to the Revolution
 
 00:00:02.476 --> 00:00:03.818
 two fifty podcast.
 
 00:00:04.217 --> 00:00:04.939
 I'm Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:04.979 --> 00:00:06.299
 I chair Rev two fifty,
 
 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:08.340
 which is a consortium of
 
 00:00:08.420 --> 00:00:09.541
 seventy five organizations
 
 00:00:09.561 --> 00:00:10.742
 in Massachusetts planning
 
 00:00:10.762 --> 00:00:11.743
 commemorations of the
 
 00:00:11.782 --> 00:00:14.023
 beginnings of American independence.
 
 00:00:14.124 --> 00:00:16.106
 And and behind the curtain
 
 00:00:16.146 --> 00:00:18.207
 is Jonathan Lane, our executive director.
 
 00:00:18.266 --> 00:00:20.047
 And with us is John R. Moss.
 
 00:00:20.307 --> 00:00:22.408
 John, thanks for joining us.
 
 00:00:22.428 --> 00:00:23.190
 Thanks for having me.
 
 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:25.181
 And we're here to talk about
 
 00:00:25.240 --> 00:00:26.521
 your latest book,
 
 00:00:26.562 --> 00:00:28.202
 which I believe is your sixth,
 
 00:00:28.263 --> 00:00:30.024
 From Trenton to Yorktown,
 
 00:00:30.103 --> 00:00:32.045
 Turning Points of the Revolutionary War.
 
 00:00:32.064 --> 00:00:33.125
 But let me also say that you
 
 00:00:33.225 --> 00:00:34.527
 are an historian,
 
 00:00:34.767 --> 00:00:35.866
 educator at the National
 
 00:00:35.906 --> 00:00:37.148
 Museum of the United States
 
 00:00:37.328 --> 00:00:41.191
 Army at Fort Belvoir in Fairfax County,
 
 00:00:41.210 --> 00:00:41.710
 Virginia.
 
 00:00:41.890 --> 00:00:43.051
 It must be in Fairfax County,
 
 00:00:43.091 --> 00:00:43.712
 since as you were saying,
 
 00:00:43.731 --> 00:00:45.093
 the Fairfaxes were there.
 
 00:00:45.353 --> 00:00:46.954
 So thanks for joining us, John.
 
 00:00:47.014 --> 00:00:47.634
 Thanks for having me.
 
 00:00:47.654 --> 00:00:48.414
 It's my pleasure.
 
 00:00:49.164 --> 00:00:51.924
 So your book looks at five turning points,
 
 00:00:51.984 --> 00:00:52.686
 but I think first,
 
 00:00:52.706 --> 00:00:54.127
 why don't we ask you what
 
 00:00:54.207 --> 00:00:56.707
 exactly is a turning point?
 
 00:00:56.807 --> 00:00:58.628
 Okay, well, thanks, Bob,
 
 00:00:58.649 --> 00:00:59.709
 for having me and
 
 00:00:59.869 --> 00:01:00.869
 appreciate the opportunity
 
 00:01:00.890 --> 00:01:01.729
 to talk about the book.
 
 00:01:03.371 --> 00:01:06.093
 What I'll do is I'll read my
 
 00:01:06.233 --> 00:01:07.914
 definition of turning point,
 
 00:01:08.093 --> 00:01:09.034
 and I think that'll help
 
 00:01:09.114 --> 00:01:11.334
 explain as we go along kind
 
 00:01:11.375 --> 00:01:12.615
 of where I was coming from,
 
 00:01:13.096 --> 00:01:14.057
 where I start from.
 
 00:01:15.156 --> 00:01:16.257
 Folks who read the book will
 
 00:01:16.278 --> 00:01:17.659
 be able to see that in the introduction,
 
 00:01:17.698 --> 00:01:17.838
 but
 
 00:01:19.403 --> 00:01:20.823
 My definition of a turning
 
 00:01:20.864 --> 00:01:26.766
 point in this case is that it is a battle,
 
 00:01:27.085 --> 00:01:29.165
 campaign, siege,
 
 00:01:29.786 --> 00:01:31.606
 and other military events
 
 00:01:32.507 --> 00:01:35.087
 that are decisive and
 
 00:01:35.566 --> 00:01:37.067
 result in significant
 
 00:01:37.087 --> 00:01:39.847
 change that alters the
 
 00:01:39.908 --> 00:01:42.528
 trajectory of the conflict
 
 00:01:42.549 --> 00:01:44.328
 toward the war's outcome.
 
 00:01:44.748 --> 00:01:47.870
 So to kind of distill that even more,
 
 00:01:49.010 --> 00:01:53.325
 The turning point, in my definition, is...
 
 00:01:54.781 --> 00:01:56.662
 not just a big battle or
 
 00:01:56.902 --> 00:01:58.942
 heavy casualties or maybe
 
 00:01:59.003 --> 00:02:00.724
 somebody retreats or loses
 
 00:02:00.825 --> 00:02:03.105
 one of the states but it's
 
 00:02:03.305 --> 00:02:05.287
 an event that alters the
 
 00:02:05.367 --> 00:02:07.067
 trajectory of the war
 
 00:02:07.147 --> 00:02:09.610
 toward its ultimate outcome
 
 00:02:09.629 --> 00:02:10.469
 which in this case is
 
 00:02:10.490 --> 00:02:12.951
 american independence so
 
 00:02:13.012 --> 00:02:14.752
 for example the battle of
 
 00:02:14.812 --> 00:02:18.314
 brandywine the in the
 
 00:02:19.675 --> 00:02:20.996
 british beat uh
 
 00:02:21.036 --> 00:02:23.818
 washington's army forced them to retire
 
 00:02:24.318 --> 00:02:27.098
 maneuvered him out of Philadelphia,
 
 00:02:27.158 --> 00:02:31.039
 captured the putative capital of America,
 
 00:02:31.659 --> 00:02:33.560
 and forced Washington away from the city.
 
 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:35.580
 What did that do?
 
 00:02:35.681 --> 00:02:37.561
 Well, the Americans didn't surrender,
 
 00:02:38.260 --> 00:02:39.842
 and the British actually
 
 00:02:39.981 --> 00:02:41.942
 left Philadelphia about
 
 00:02:42.162 --> 00:02:43.842
 eight or nine months later,
 
 00:02:44.182 --> 00:02:45.383
 and so therefore it really
 
 00:02:45.443 --> 00:02:47.723
 did not alter the trajectory of the war,
 
 00:02:48.144 --> 00:02:50.883
 whereas the five events that I talk about,
 
 00:02:51.604 --> 00:02:53.884
 they do significantly alter that.
 
 00:02:54.622 --> 00:02:56.103
 That's a good way of putting it,
 
 00:02:56.122 --> 00:02:57.522
 and that leads us to your
 
 00:02:57.582 --> 00:02:59.623
 third chapter is on the
 
 00:02:59.663 --> 00:03:01.145
 consequences for Washington
 
 00:03:01.504 --> 00:03:02.925
 after losing Brandywine in
 
 00:03:02.944 --> 00:03:03.705
 Philadelphia in the winter
 
 00:03:03.725 --> 00:03:04.485
 at Valley Forge.
 
 00:03:04.506 --> 00:03:05.705
 And you see that is one of
 
 00:03:05.746 --> 00:03:07.146
 the turning points for a
 
 00:03:07.206 --> 00:03:07.866
 number of reasons.
 
 00:03:07.907 --> 00:03:08.608
 Why don't we talk about
 
 00:03:09.048 --> 00:03:10.168
 Valley Forge since we're on
 
 00:03:10.187 --> 00:03:11.288
 Pennsylvania at the moment?
 
 00:03:11.308 --> 00:03:12.128
 Sure.
 
 00:03:12.229 --> 00:03:14.949
 So to continue with that story,
 
 00:03:16.230 --> 00:03:18.070
 the British occupied Philadelphia.
 
 00:03:18.491 --> 00:03:20.431
 There was a subsequent
 
 00:03:21.193 --> 00:03:22.193
 battle of Germantown,
 
 00:03:22.212 --> 00:03:24.174
 which was another battle.
 
 00:03:25.930 --> 00:03:27.691
 The British eked out a
 
 00:03:27.730 --> 00:03:29.632
 victory at the end in the fourth quarter,
 
 00:03:30.193 --> 00:03:31.574
 and Washington had to kind
 
 00:03:32.574 --> 00:03:34.735
 of maneuver away and retire
 
 00:03:34.776 --> 00:03:36.556
 to the encampment at Valley Forge.
 
 00:03:37.157 --> 00:03:38.737
 Now, most Americans know,
 
 00:03:38.957 --> 00:03:39.859
 at least they know Valley
 
 00:03:39.899 --> 00:03:41.038
 Forge was in the wintertime.
 
 00:03:41.058 --> 00:03:45.102
 And there's kind of two
 
 00:03:45.162 --> 00:03:46.562
 sides to Valley Forge.
 
 00:03:47.844 --> 00:03:49.066
 One of them is the one we've
 
 00:03:49.105 --> 00:03:50.205
 really all heard and
 
 00:03:50.246 --> 00:03:52.467
 familiar with where the
 
 00:03:52.526 --> 00:03:54.967
 troops are in roughly
 
 00:03:55.187 --> 00:03:56.669
 seventeen thousand or so
 
 00:03:56.709 --> 00:03:58.110
 troops were at Valley Forge.
 
 00:04:00.850 --> 00:04:05.652
 And the Americans needed to feed them,
 
 00:04:05.712 --> 00:04:07.593
 supply them, but also to train them.
 
 00:04:08.383 --> 00:04:10.503
 And so along comes the
 
 00:04:10.544 --> 00:04:13.064
 famous Baron von Steuben.
 
 00:04:13.805 --> 00:04:15.485
 Lots of people say he wasn't a baron,
 
 00:04:15.526 --> 00:04:18.567
 but for a time he occupied
 
 00:04:18.786 --> 00:04:21.567
 a position in a very small
 
 00:04:21.708 --> 00:04:22.848
 army of a very small
 
 00:04:22.908 --> 00:04:25.250
 principality and was given a title,
 
 00:04:25.269 --> 00:04:25.990
 which the British would
 
 00:04:26.009 --> 00:04:26.750
 have called baron.
 
 00:04:26.769 --> 00:04:28.911
 So technically, you know,
 
 00:04:29.170 --> 00:04:30.672
 see manager for details,
 
 00:04:32.112 --> 00:04:33.052
 read the fine print.
 
 00:04:33.612 --> 00:04:36.033
 But he was for real as far as a soldier.
 
 00:04:36.074 --> 00:04:37.935
 There's zero doubt about that.
 
 00:04:39.288 --> 00:04:40.088
 Zeroed out.
 
 00:04:40.488 --> 00:04:43.190
 And he was a Prussian,
 
 00:04:43.750 --> 00:04:45.132
 spoke French and German.
 
 00:04:45.913 --> 00:04:48.713
 And what he did was he came
 
 00:04:48.814 --> 00:04:50.735
 in and simplified things
 
 00:04:50.776 --> 00:04:51.656
 for the Americans.
 
 00:04:52.437 --> 00:04:57.139
 These were not professional soldiers in,
 
 00:04:57.920 --> 00:04:59.521
 so he simplified the drill.
 
 00:04:59.901 --> 00:05:01.781
 He simplified the firings
 
 00:05:02.322 --> 00:05:03.543
 from about twenty-five
 
 00:05:03.583 --> 00:05:05.324
 steps that the British Army
 
 00:05:05.363 --> 00:05:07.024
 had to fire a musket to
 
 00:05:07.064 --> 00:05:08.026
 about ten or eleven.
 
 00:05:09.944 --> 00:05:11.586
 He trained them how to march.
 
 00:05:12.005 --> 00:05:14.648
 But also sanitary conditions in camp.
 
 00:05:15.307 --> 00:05:16.908
 Where to dig the latrines in
 
 00:05:16.949 --> 00:05:18.329
 relationship to your tent.
 
 00:05:19.350 --> 00:05:20.531
 Things along those lines.
 
 00:05:21.612 --> 00:05:25.093
 And so the American Army
 
 00:05:25.454 --> 00:05:28.336
 that emerged from Valley Forge
 
 00:05:29.730 --> 00:05:31.011
 It might be a little bit too
 
 00:05:31.050 --> 00:05:32.630
 much to say they were
 
 00:05:32.872 --> 00:05:34.391
 professional in the sense
 
 00:05:34.432 --> 00:05:35.252
 of the French and the
 
 00:05:35.293 --> 00:05:36.252
 Prussians and the British,
 
 00:05:36.733 --> 00:05:38.593
 but they certainly were a
 
 00:05:38.675 --> 00:05:39.814
 lot better trained,
 
 00:05:39.855 --> 00:05:40.995
 a lot better disciplined.
 
 00:05:41.716 --> 00:05:43.637
 Their officers were better now.
 
 00:05:44.798 --> 00:05:46.418
 And just to give you an example,
 
 00:05:48.819 --> 00:05:49.600
 one of the things in the
 
 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:50.701
 eighteenth century was you
 
 00:05:50.740 --> 00:05:52.321
 had to be able to maneuver
 
 00:05:52.380 --> 00:05:55.543
 troops together on the battlefield.
 
 00:05:56.170 --> 00:05:58.911
 And so that seems so simple now,
 
 00:05:58.932 --> 00:05:59.872
 but anybody who's been in
 
 00:05:59.891 --> 00:06:02.514
 the Army or the Marines and
 
 00:06:03.053 --> 00:06:05.714
 even marching band in high school,
 
 00:06:05.735 --> 00:06:06.755
 you've got to be able to
 
 00:06:06.795 --> 00:06:08.617
 move bodies of people effectively.
 
 00:06:09.096 --> 00:06:11.338
 And so try to figure out how
 
 00:06:11.379 --> 00:06:13.160
 would you move a column of
 
 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:14.821
 troops marching down the
 
 00:06:14.901 --> 00:06:17.521
 road into a line of battle
 
 00:06:17.622 --> 00:06:20.444
 on both sides of that road, then advance,
 
 00:06:20.483 --> 00:06:21.723
 fix bayonets, and charge.
 
 00:06:21.744 --> 00:06:21.845
 Right.
 
 00:06:22.824 --> 00:06:24.146
 that's not intrinsically
 
 00:06:24.446 --> 00:06:25.487
 known to the average
 
 00:06:25.526 --> 00:06:28.288
 recruit in America in .
 
 00:06:27.548 --> 00:06:31.172
 And one of the ways we see
 
 00:06:31.211 --> 00:06:33.494
 how effective von Steuben
 
 00:06:33.653 --> 00:06:35.175
 and his lieutenants were in
 
 00:06:35.196 --> 00:06:37.177
 the training was how well
 
 00:06:37.216 --> 00:06:38.718
 the Americans did at the
 
 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:40.259
 battle of Monmouth
 
 00:06:40.300 --> 00:06:44.223
 Courthouse in June of after
 
 00:06:44.242 --> 00:06:45.384
 they left Valley Forge.
 
 00:06:46.204 --> 00:06:48.146
 Now, the second part of Valley Forge is
 
 00:06:49.107 --> 00:06:53.307
 Washington and several of
 
 00:06:53.327 --> 00:06:56.389
 his commanders and allies
 
 00:06:56.709 --> 00:06:58.310
 were convinced that there
 
 00:06:58.410 --> 00:07:00.550
 was a group of people
 
 00:07:00.690 --> 00:07:04.091
 against his command called a cabal.
 
 00:07:04.151 --> 00:07:06.233
 We don't use that word much today.
 
 00:07:06.252 --> 00:07:06.853
 I think we should.
 
 00:07:06.892 --> 00:07:07.452
 It's a lot of fun.
 
 00:07:10.598 --> 00:07:11.899
 But Washington and others
 
 00:07:12.218 --> 00:07:13.538
 were dead set convinced
 
 00:07:13.559 --> 00:07:14.899
 that there were congressmen
 
 00:07:15.740 --> 00:07:18.882
 and generals at the capital of York,
 
 00:07:18.942 --> 00:07:19.742
 Pennsylvania,
 
 00:07:20.302 --> 00:07:21.642
 who did not want to see him
 
 00:07:21.682 --> 00:07:22.682
 in command anymore.
 
 00:07:24.644 --> 00:07:26.305
 He had been defeated at Brandywine.
 
 00:07:26.925 --> 00:07:27.985
 And all of a sudden,
 
 00:07:28.026 --> 00:07:29.225
 you have this guy show up
 
 00:07:29.286 --> 00:07:31.567
 in York named Horatio Gates,
 
 00:07:31.608 --> 00:07:34.348
 who had just won the battles of Saratoga.
 
 00:07:36.589 --> 00:07:36.810
 So...
 
 00:07:38.507 --> 00:07:41.449
 Washington did a very smooth,
 
 00:07:43.271 --> 00:07:44.232
 what's the right word,
 
 00:07:44.451 --> 00:07:47.694
 a savvy move in that he
 
 00:07:47.774 --> 00:07:50.697
 invited a congressional committee to
 
 00:07:51.932 --> 00:07:53.692
 the camps at Valley Forge to
 
 00:07:53.752 --> 00:07:56.415
 see the conditions and to
 
 00:07:56.656 --> 00:07:57.836
 let them see with their own
 
 00:07:57.956 --> 00:07:59.197
 eyes how bad things were.
 
 00:07:59.898 --> 00:08:01.379
 He was very savvy in that he
 
 00:08:01.418 --> 00:08:02.899
 had Alexander Hamilton
 
 00:08:03.500 --> 00:08:05.161
 write up a sixteen thousand
 
 00:08:05.262 --> 00:08:06.983
 word introductory document
 
 00:08:07.002 --> 00:08:08.303
 to hand Congress and say,
 
 00:08:08.704 --> 00:08:09.925
 here's what we suggest.
 
 00:08:10.925 --> 00:08:12.206
 Once Congress got there,
 
 00:08:12.666 --> 00:08:13.548
 the delegation could
 
 00:08:13.588 --> 00:08:15.288
 clearly see the problems.
 
 00:08:15.689 --> 00:08:17.170
 They worked hard to fix it.
 
 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:18.432
 It never did get fixed.
 
 00:08:18.471 --> 00:08:18.651
 It's
 
 00:08:20.961 --> 00:08:22.322
 It got better, but not fixed.
 
 00:08:22.341 --> 00:08:25.103
 And Washington also was able
 
 00:08:25.142 --> 00:08:27.524
 to outmaneuver the generals
 
 00:08:27.564 --> 00:08:29.685
 such as Horatio Gates, Thomas Mifflin,
 
 00:08:30.204 --> 00:08:31.845
 and some congressmen out of
 
 00:08:31.865 --> 00:08:32.725
 their positions.
 
 00:08:33.645 --> 00:08:36.687
 And the way I put it in the
 
 00:08:36.726 --> 00:08:40.388
 book is that his commission
 
 00:08:40.548 --> 00:08:41.729
 that he received from
 
 00:08:41.769 --> 00:08:44.129
 Congress in seventeen seventy five,
 
 00:08:44.708 --> 00:08:46.330
 his commission was that his
 
 00:08:46.409 --> 00:08:49.350
 rank was general and commander in chief.
 
 00:08:50.259 --> 00:08:52.460
 And up until the end of Valley Forge,
 
 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:53.541
 he had been a general.
 
 00:08:54.041 --> 00:08:56.501
 He had been a general in Boston,
 
 00:08:56.942 --> 00:08:58.943
 Long Island, Trenton, Princeton,
 
 00:08:59.043 --> 00:08:59.683
 Brandywine.
 
 00:09:00.183 --> 00:09:03.485
 But once he consolidated his
 
 00:09:03.546 --> 00:09:05.667
 command of the army,
 
 00:09:05.706 --> 00:09:06.788
 there was no more threats
 
 00:09:06.807 --> 00:09:08.288
 to him after that during the war.
 
 00:09:08.788 --> 00:09:10.789
 He became commander in chief.
 
 00:09:11.571 --> 00:09:12.270
 He really did.
 
 00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:16.793
 So those really are the main turning,
 
 00:09:16.994 --> 00:09:18.433
 the reason why I consider
 
 00:09:18.514 --> 00:09:19.674
 Valley Forge a turning point.
 
 00:09:20.972 --> 00:09:22.313
 We're talking with John Moss,
 
 00:09:22.533 --> 00:09:24.453
 author of From Trenton to Yorktown,
 
 00:09:24.494 --> 00:09:26.654
 Turning Points of the Revolutionary War,
 
 00:09:27.254 --> 00:09:29.596
 which looks at these five episodes.
 
 00:09:29.635 --> 00:09:30.296
 And as you were saying,
 
 00:09:30.355 --> 00:09:32.157
 it's not necessarily the battle,
 
 00:09:32.256 --> 00:09:33.297
 it's the campaign.
 
 00:09:35.197 --> 00:09:36.817
 And so actually,
 
 00:09:36.977 --> 00:09:37.878
 I was thinking we could go
 
 00:09:37.918 --> 00:09:39.298
 back then to Saratoga,
 
 00:09:39.318 --> 00:09:41.359
 which is your previous one, where Gates,
 
 00:09:41.418 --> 00:09:44.580
 of course, is the hero.
 
 00:09:45.280 --> 00:09:46.701
 And I think there's probably
 
 00:09:46.721 --> 00:09:47.681
 not going to be any dispute
 
 00:09:47.701 --> 00:09:49.201
 that the battle itself is a
 
 00:09:49.241 --> 00:09:49.861
 turning point.
 
 00:09:50.836 --> 00:09:52.136
 No, not at all.
 
 00:09:52.717 --> 00:09:53.618
 And, you know,
 
 00:09:53.638 --> 00:09:55.820
 to cut to the chase and the spoiler alert,
 
 00:09:56.921 --> 00:09:57.861
 as they say today,
 
 00:10:00.144 --> 00:10:01.784
 Saratoga really was the
 
 00:10:01.845 --> 00:10:04.126
 biggest turning point in the war.
 
 00:10:04.807 --> 00:10:07.950
 And I won't really go
 
 00:10:07.970 --> 00:10:09.610
 through the details of the
 
 00:10:09.650 --> 00:10:10.591
 campaign itself,
 
 00:10:10.652 --> 00:10:12.253
 but to get to the turning point...
 
 00:10:15.466 --> 00:10:17.647
 an army led by Horatio
 
 00:10:17.726 --> 00:10:18.967
 initially by Philip
 
 00:10:19.048 --> 00:10:21.149
 Schuyler then Horatio Gates
 
 00:10:22.269 --> 00:10:24.410
 consisting of continentals
 
 00:10:25.011 --> 00:10:27.153
 and militia were able to
 
 00:10:27.212 --> 00:10:30.115
 concentrate to large
 
 00:10:30.195 --> 00:10:32.996
 numbers in the area north of Albany
 
 00:10:34.116 --> 00:10:36.378
 roughly between Lake George and Albany,
 
 00:10:37.139 --> 00:10:39.539
 and had two battles in Saratoga.
 
 00:10:40.441 --> 00:10:41.561
 The British realized that
 
 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:43.522
 they were basically not
 
 00:10:43.542 --> 00:10:45.222
 going to make it to their objective,
 
 00:10:45.403 --> 00:10:48.745
 Albany, and it was too late in the season,
 
 00:10:49.365 --> 00:10:50.586
 so they surrendered under
 
 00:10:50.966 --> 00:10:53.246
 the British general John Burgoyne.
 
 00:10:53.267 --> 00:10:56.089
 And for Burgoyne, this was a big plan.
 
 00:10:56.129 --> 00:10:56.989
 This was going to end the
 
 00:10:57.028 --> 00:10:58.730
 war by launching this
 
 00:10:58.769 --> 00:10:59.811
 invasion from Canada.
 
 00:11:01.075 --> 00:11:02.975
 Well, it was going to contribute to that.
 
 00:11:03.035 --> 00:11:04.197
 It was half of that.
 
 00:11:04.876 --> 00:11:06.837
 And you remember the other
 
 00:11:06.878 --> 00:11:08.639
 part was some force was
 
 00:11:08.678 --> 00:11:10.120
 supposed to come up the
 
 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:13.361
 Hudson toward Albany from New York City.
 
 00:11:13.961 --> 00:11:17.604
 And this was a classic case study.
 
 00:11:17.624 --> 00:11:19.565
 And if you read Kevin
 
 00:11:19.605 --> 00:11:21.086
 Weddle's book that came out
 
 00:11:21.125 --> 00:11:22.726
 a few years ago, The Complete Victory,
 
 00:11:23.167 --> 00:11:24.548
 and also Eric Schnitzer's
 
 00:11:24.607 --> 00:11:27.289
 book on the same subject,
 
 00:11:29.030 --> 00:11:31.274
 trying to have... The
 
 00:11:31.293 --> 00:11:32.875
 British made the mistake of
 
 00:11:32.956 --> 00:11:34.658
 instead of concentration of force,
 
 00:11:34.677 --> 00:11:36.600
 which is one of the army's
 
 00:11:36.780 --> 00:11:39.323
 key strategic elements,
 
 00:11:40.684 --> 00:11:42.126
 they divided the two armies
 
 00:11:42.187 --> 00:11:43.729
 in two and they...
 
 00:11:44.830 --> 00:11:47.451
 purposely developed a plan
 
 00:11:47.471 --> 00:11:49.312
 where the enemy was between
 
 00:11:49.351 --> 00:11:50.493
 the two wings.
 
 00:11:51.413 --> 00:11:53.153
 That's a gigantic no-no, right?
 
 00:11:53.953 --> 00:11:54.855
 That is not the way to do it.
 
 00:11:55.274 --> 00:11:57.775
 And who is the commander overall?
 
 00:11:58.535 --> 00:12:00.557
 A civilian three thousand
 
 00:12:00.616 --> 00:12:02.918
 miles away who can't see
 
 00:12:02.938 --> 00:12:05.980
 what's going on in the ground on some of,
 
 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:09.000
 if not the most difficult
 
 00:12:09.041 --> 00:12:11.602
 terrain to operate on
 
 00:12:11.702 --> 00:12:14.443
 logistically in all of North America.
 
 00:12:16.284 --> 00:12:17.066
 It looks a lot easier on a
 
 00:12:17.125 --> 00:12:18.486
 map if you're sitting in London.
 
 00:12:18.807 --> 00:12:19.227
 It does.
 
 00:12:19.388 --> 00:12:20.308
 It absolutely does.
 
 00:12:21.309 --> 00:12:23.471
 So what was the fallout from that?
 
 00:12:23.491 --> 00:12:24.613
 Well, in Burgoyne surrender,
 
 00:12:24.633 --> 00:12:25.894
 the obvious one is the
 
 00:12:25.933 --> 00:12:27.095
 Americans knocked out an
 
 00:12:27.215 --> 00:12:28.855
 eight thousand man force of
 
 00:12:28.916 --> 00:12:31.418
 Redcoats and Hessians.
 
 00:12:31.458 --> 00:12:32.799
 They were not replaceable.
 
 00:12:36.083 --> 00:12:41.024
 But the real benefit was the
 
 00:12:41.345 --> 00:12:42.645
 alliance with France.
 
 00:12:43.046 --> 00:12:44.605
 There were actually two
 
 00:12:44.666 --> 00:12:47.787
 agreements or two treaties or agreements.
 
 00:12:48.047 --> 00:12:52.187
 One was the Treaty of Amity and Commerce,
 
 00:12:52.868 --> 00:12:53.988
 and the other one was the
 
 00:12:54.048 --> 00:12:55.207
 Military Alliance.
 
 00:12:55.227 --> 00:12:55.488
 Right.
 
 00:12:56.067 --> 00:12:58.328
 And once the British learned that,
 
 00:12:59.537 --> 00:13:03.379
 The war changed instantly in two ways.
 
 00:13:03.899 --> 00:13:04.700
 And first,
 
 00:13:05.280 --> 00:13:07.461
 the Americans got from that
 
 00:13:07.481 --> 00:13:10.604
 alliance something that
 
 00:13:10.903 --> 00:13:13.485
 they never would have had
 
 00:13:13.686 --> 00:13:16.168
 and never did have, which is a navy.
 
 00:13:17.361 --> 00:13:18.623
 They had a navy that could
 
 00:13:18.702 --> 00:13:21.725
 now go toe-to-toe and better,
 
 00:13:22.725 --> 00:13:25.388
 I won't give away the ending,
 
 00:13:25.448 --> 00:13:26.548
 with the French navy.
 
 00:13:27.669 --> 00:13:28.551
 All of a sudden,
 
 00:13:28.591 --> 00:13:29.652
 the British couldn't move
 
 00:13:29.851 --> 00:13:31.153
 at will troops from
 
 00:13:31.953 --> 00:13:33.556
 Halifax Nova Scotia to New
 
 00:13:33.576 --> 00:13:34.596
 York or New York to
 
 00:13:34.636 --> 00:13:38.000
 Charleston so that was a
 
 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:39.841
 big difference and even
 
 00:13:39.900 --> 00:13:41.462
 more which I think is kind
 
 00:13:41.523 --> 00:13:43.524
 of overlooked by the public
 
 00:13:43.565 --> 00:13:44.846
 not so much military
 
 00:13:44.865 --> 00:13:46.768
 historians but now the
 
 00:13:46.847 --> 00:13:48.629
 center of gravity shifted
 
 00:13:49.413 --> 00:13:50.934
 from the Thirteen Colonies,
 
 00:13:50.955 --> 00:13:52.255
 which became the United States,
 
 00:13:52.736 --> 00:13:54.398
 to the West Indies,
 
 00:13:54.477 --> 00:13:55.578
 meaning the Caribbean.
 
 00:13:55.918 --> 00:13:58.100
 Because that's where the, follow the money,
 
 00:13:58.160 --> 00:13:58.400
 right?
 
 00:13:58.701 --> 00:13:59.922
 That's where the money was,
 
 00:14:00.423 --> 00:14:03.044
 down in the Caribbean, the Sugar Islands.
 
 00:14:03.544 --> 00:14:06.908
 And so, as we talked briefly,
 
 00:14:07.928 --> 00:14:09.169
 when the British evacuated
 
 00:14:09.210 --> 00:14:12.251
 Philadelphia in,
 
 00:14:13.113 --> 00:14:14.913
 after that treaty was signed,
 
 00:14:15.934 --> 00:14:18.116
 to move their army back to New York,
 
 00:14:18.535 --> 00:14:19.636
 why were they doing that
 
 00:14:20.517 --> 00:14:21.636
 they were getting ready to
 
 00:14:21.697 --> 00:14:23.518
 ship out fifty five hundred
 
 00:14:23.577 --> 00:14:24.578
 red coats to the west
 
 00:14:24.658 --> 00:14:26.298
 indies out of new york they
 
 00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:31.822
 had so that was an enormous
 
 00:14:34.041 --> 00:14:36.984
 in the tempo, as the army says now,
 
 00:14:37.024 --> 00:14:39.186
 the battle rhythm of the war,
 
 00:14:39.566 --> 00:14:41.126
 that had now moved,
 
 00:14:41.147 --> 00:14:42.347
 to use another modern term,
 
 00:14:42.708 --> 00:14:43.830
 that moved offshore.
 
 00:14:44.129 --> 00:14:45.610
 That is now West Indies.
 
 00:14:45.630 --> 00:14:49.315
 And when you add French help,
 
 00:14:49.735 --> 00:14:51.777
 plus the British withdraw
 
 00:14:51.836 --> 00:14:52.738
 thousands of troops,
 
 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:56.000
 that was a key game changer right there.
 
 00:14:56.826 --> 00:14:57.207
 It really was.
 
 00:14:57.748 --> 00:14:59.509
 And, of course, Admiral Rodney,
 
 00:14:59.549 --> 00:15:01.471
 who loses the Battle of the Chesapeake,
 
 00:15:01.511 --> 00:15:02.533
 the following year wins the
 
 00:15:02.552 --> 00:15:03.693
 Battle of the Saints,
 
 00:15:04.274 --> 00:15:05.456
 keeping British control of
 
 00:15:05.475 --> 00:15:06.216
 the West Indies,
 
 00:15:06.658 --> 00:15:07.578
 which then was probably
 
 00:15:07.619 --> 00:15:08.659
 more important than holding
 
 00:15:08.740 --> 00:15:10.061
 on to these thirteen
 
 00:15:10.501 --> 00:15:11.623
 colonies which did not want
 
 00:15:11.643 --> 00:15:13.264
 to be part of the Empire any longer.
 
 00:15:14.446 --> 00:15:15.006
 Right.
 
 00:15:15.246 --> 00:15:16.307
 And in hindsight,
 
 00:15:18.640 --> 00:15:18.841
 You know,
 
 00:15:19.062 --> 00:15:21.082
 by seventeen eighty by seventeen
 
 00:15:21.102 --> 00:15:22.783
 eighty one eighty two eighty three,
 
 00:15:23.323 --> 00:15:24.524
 the merchants and
 
 00:15:24.985 --> 00:15:26.326
 politicians and people who
 
 00:15:26.365 --> 00:15:28.386
 didn't like to get taxed on their estates,
 
 00:15:28.967 --> 00:15:30.908
 they realized everything
 
 00:15:30.948 --> 00:15:33.210
 they wanted to milk out of
 
 00:15:33.250 --> 00:15:34.311
 the thirteen colonies.
 
 00:15:34.770 --> 00:15:36.251
 They could do it just as
 
 00:15:36.331 --> 00:15:38.052
 easily and far cheaper
 
 00:15:38.393 --> 00:15:39.474
 without a war going on.
 
 00:15:39.494 --> 00:15:39.614
 Right.
 
 00:15:40.754 --> 00:15:41.014
 It was.
 
 00:15:41.634 --> 00:15:42.095
 Yeah, it was.
 
 00:15:42.235 --> 00:15:44.035
 It was became very obvious.
 
 00:15:44.056 --> 00:15:44.417
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:44.476 --> 00:15:44.557
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:45.572 --> 00:15:46.615
 And that was actually part
 
 00:15:46.634 --> 00:15:47.697
 of Washington's overall
 
 00:15:47.736 --> 00:15:49.318
 strategy was to convince
 
 00:15:49.359 --> 00:15:50.780
 the British public, I think,
 
 00:15:50.821 --> 00:15:52.202
 the British politicians
 
 00:15:52.222 --> 00:15:54.486
 that they couldn't, why maintain the war?
 
 00:15:55.626 --> 00:15:59.110
 Washington and Congress, you know, they,
 
 00:15:59.169 --> 00:16:00.110
 I mean, in a way,
 
 00:16:00.130 --> 00:16:01.672
 I don't want to draw too
 
 00:16:01.692 --> 00:16:02.852
 many close parallels,
 
 00:16:02.893 --> 00:16:04.715
 but in the way the
 
 00:16:04.875 --> 00:16:05.875
 Confederate government
 
 00:16:05.936 --> 00:16:08.096
 thought that if they held on long enough,
 
 00:16:08.597 --> 00:16:11.240
 the North would say, man, we, I'm sorry,
 
 00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:12.201
 the British would say,
 
 00:16:12.980 --> 00:16:13.881
 where's our cotton?
 
 00:16:14.342 --> 00:16:15.143
 This is killing us.
 
 00:16:15.182 --> 00:16:15.764
 That's right.
 
 00:16:16.724 --> 00:16:17.664
 You know, same thing.
 
 00:16:17.825 --> 00:16:19.586
 Well, not a similar situation.
 
 00:16:19.886 --> 00:16:20.908
 Similar, yeah.
 
 00:16:20.927 --> 00:16:22.128
 We're talking with John Moss,
 
 00:16:22.168 --> 00:16:24.889
 historian at the National
 
 00:16:24.909 --> 00:16:25.730
 Museum of the U.S.
 
 00:16:25.830 --> 00:16:28.091
 Army at Fort Belvoir and the author of,
 
 00:16:28.631 --> 00:16:29.932
 among his six books,
 
 00:16:29.991 --> 00:16:32.312
 his latest is From Trenton to Yorktown.
 
 00:16:32.333 --> 00:16:33.614
 You've also written a book
 
 00:16:33.653 --> 00:16:35.235
 about the Yorktown campaign,
 
 00:16:35.274 --> 00:16:36.154
 as well as about George
 
 00:16:36.196 --> 00:16:38.376
 Washington's Virginia and
 
 00:16:38.417 --> 00:16:40.197
 the Battle of Guilford Courthouse,
 
 00:16:40.217 --> 00:16:40.837
 which is really a
 
 00:16:41.501 --> 00:16:41.701
 I mean,
 
 00:16:42.042 --> 00:16:43.683
 you talk in that chapter about
 
 00:16:43.744 --> 00:16:45.105
 trying to isolate the one
 
 00:16:45.164 --> 00:16:46.765
 decisive battle in that
 
 00:16:46.846 --> 00:16:47.927
 Southern campaign.
 
 00:16:47.986 --> 00:16:50.207
 It's difficult because there are a lot,
 
 00:16:50.349 --> 00:16:51.870
 and this is the critical one.
 
 00:16:51.889 --> 00:16:53.191
 So why don't we talk a
 
 00:16:53.211 --> 00:16:54.731
 little bit about what
 
 00:16:54.772 --> 00:16:55.972
 Guilford Courthouse was and
 
 00:16:55.993 --> 00:16:57.013
 then how you decided this
 
 00:16:57.052 --> 00:16:59.134
 was the crucial one, or both.
 
 00:16:59.514 --> 00:17:01.236
 You can intermingle both, I think.
 
 00:17:02.496 --> 00:17:04.659
 Well, let me start by saying,
 
 00:17:04.838 --> 00:17:05.839
 and I don't think I really
 
 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:07.260
 go into this in the book that much,
 
 00:17:07.381 --> 00:17:09.803
 but you and I,
 
 00:17:10.810 --> 00:17:12.332
 are old enough to remember
 
 00:17:12.392 --> 00:17:14.211
 the American Heritage
 
 00:17:14.251 --> 00:17:16.012
 Golden Book of the Revolutionary War,
 
 00:17:16.833 --> 00:17:18.594
 and Bruce Lancaster,
 
 00:17:19.413 --> 00:17:22.255
 and even Robert Middlecoff's, uh,
 
 00:17:22.295 --> 00:17:23.256
 nineteen eighties
 
 00:17:23.296 --> 00:17:24.996
 contribution to the Oxford
 
 00:17:25.016 --> 00:17:27.656
 history of the US, Time Life books,
 
 00:17:28.096 --> 00:17:29.298
 and that,
 
 00:17:29.498 --> 00:17:32.739
 and National Geographic even had one.
 
 00:17:32.939 --> 00:17:35.299
 And in those books,
 
 00:17:36.376 --> 00:17:37.958
 They were structured all the same way.
 
 00:17:38.479 --> 00:17:39.358
 There was a chapter on
 
 00:17:39.398 --> 00:17:41.039
 Lexington and Concord and Bunker Hill.
 
 00:17:41.740 --> 00:17:44.222
 Then Washington in the New York area.
 
 00:17:44.883 --> 00:17:46.644
 Then Trenton and Princeton.
 
 00:17:47.404 --> 00:17:50.366
 Then Philadelphia and Monmouth.
 
 00:17:52.368 --> 00:17:55.191
 And a little bit in the west
 
 00:17:55.230 --> 00:17:55.932
 here and there.
 
 00:17:56.112 --> 00:17:57.071
 Nobody really knew where
 
 00:17:57.092 --> 00:17:58.693
 that was or what was going on.
 
 00:17:58.713 --> 00:18:00.454
 George Rogers Clark was doing something.
 
 00:18:00.535 --> 00:18:00.775
 Right.
 
 00:18:01.296 --> 00:18:02.056
 Yeah.
 
 00:18:03.277 --> 00:18:05.358
 And then at the end of those books...
 
 00:18:06.380 --> 00:18:08.779
 there was one chapter on
 
 00:18:09.401 --> 00:18:12.221
 everything to do with the South, right?
 
 00:18:12.721 --> 00:18:17.541
 One chapter from Moores Creek, if that,
 
 00:18:18.162 --> 00:18:20.521
 to Yorktown in one chapter.
 
 00:18:20.561 --> 00:18:20.781
 Now,
 
 00:18:21.722 --> 00:18:24.042
 none of the books were ever structured
 
 00:18:25.083 --> 00:18:27.903
 on some kind of, quote, northern campaign,
 
 00:18:28.124 --> 00:18:28.423
 right?
 
 00:18:28.864 --> 00:18:29.884
 But everybody seemed to
 
 00:18:29.943 --> 00:18:31.104
 think that from seventeen
 
 00:18:31.144 --> 00:18:32.104
 seventy five through
 
 00:18:32.124 --> 00:18:33.164
 seventeen eighty three,
 
 00:18:33.525 --> 00:18:35.744
 there was one southern campaign.
 
 00:18:37.195 --> 00:18:38.576
 Okay, absolutely wrong.
 
 00:18:39.136 --> 00:18:41.558
 So that's the first premise
 
 00:18:41.598 --> 00:18:42.619
 we have to defeat.
 
 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:47.843
 So what I did is I
 
 00:18:48.584 --> 00:18:53.067
 identified what I call the
 
 00:18:53.126 --> 00:18:54.988
 Carolinas Campaign of
 
 00:18:55.048 --> 00:18:57.009
 seventeen eighty and eighty one.
 
 00:18:58.130 --> 00:18:59.131
 And by that,
 
 00:18:59.310 --> 00:19:00.511
 I mean when the British
 
 00:19:00.711 --> 00:19:02.512
 launched their very large
 
 00:19:02.553 --> 00:19:04.615
 invasion from New York in
 
 00:19:04.694 --> 00:19:06.336
 late December of seventeen eighty.
 
 00:19:07.309 --> 00:19:09.830
 and landed at Charleston and
 
 00:19:10.250 --> 00:19:12.511
 got Charleston's surrender in May of.
 
 00:19:12.571 --> 00:19:19.433
 So from there,
 
 00:19:20.574 --> 00:19:21.994
 that's the beginning of what
 
 00:19:22.174 --> 00:19:23.055
 I consider to be the
 
 00:19:23.075 --> 00:19:25.154
 Carolinas campaign of.
 
 00:19:25.375 --> 00:19:25.915
 And briefly,
 
 00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:34.030
 The British left a lot of
 
 00:19:34.050 --> 00:19:34.810
 their troops there.
 
 00:19:34.871 --> 00:19:36.092
 Some went back to New York
 
 00:19:36.172 --> 00:19:37.251
 under Sir Henry Clinton.
 
 00:19:39.073 --> 00:19:41.313
 But he left a large contingent,
 
 00:19:41.353 --> 00:19:42.594
 fairly large contingent,
 
 00:19:42.794 --> 00:19:48.395
 under Lieutenant General Lord Cornwallis.
 
 00:19:48.415 --> 00:19:48.816
 Mm-hmm.
 
 00:19:49.950 --> 00:19:51.451
 And the British fanned out
 
 00:19:51.632 --> 00:19:53.292
 in erected posts and
 
 00:19:53.393 --> 00:19:55.555
 garrisons at several places
 
 00:19:55.595 --> 00:19:59.538
 in South Carolina, cowed the patriots,
 
 00:19:59.578 --> 00:20:01.701
 the loyalists, started enlisting.
 
 00:20:02.381 --> 00:20:04.282
 They also established posts at...
 
 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:11.441
 I'll think of a second.
 
 00:20:11.881 --> 00:20:12.961
 On the Savannah River.
 
 00:20:13.521 --> 00:20:17.484
 Yeah.
 
 00:20:18.026 --> 00:20:18.665
 I'll think of it.
 
 00:20:21.107 --> 00:20:21.628
 Augusta.
 
 00:20:21.729 --> 00:20:22.548
 Augusta, Georgia.
 
 00:20:22.950 --> 00:20:23.190
 Right.
 
 00:20:24.490 --> 00:20:27.452
 And so South Carolina was basically,
 
 00:20:28.834 --> 00:20:29.755
 I don't know that I'd use
 
 00:20:29.795 --> 00:20:30.596
 the word conquered,
 
 00:20:30.615 --> 00:20:32.076
 but certainly subdued.
 
 00:20:32.477 --> 00:20:32.778
 Right.
 
 00:20:33.478 --> 00:20:38.201
 And so Cornwallis moves north and
 
 00:20:39.107 --> 00:20:41.511
 And he defeats Horatio Gates
 
 00:20:41.571 --> 00:20:43.634
 of Saratoga fame in August
 
 00:20:43.674 --> 00:20:45.897
 of seventeen eighty at the
 
 00:20:45.938 --> 00:20:48.161
 Battle of Camden.
 
 00:20:48.201 --> 00:20:50.403
 And from that point, what does he do?
 
 00:20:50.683 --> 00:20:53.087
 He advances toward his next objective,
 
 00:20:53.107 --> 00:20:54.148
 which is North Carolina.
 
 00:20:54.997 --> 00:20:57.138
 Well, six weeks after Camden,
 
 00:20:57.818 --> 00:20:58.940
 some of his militia,
 
 00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:00.862
 about twelve hundred of his militia,
 
 00:21:00.902 --> 00:21:02.823
 get defeated by American
 
 00:21:02.863 --> 00:21:05.085
 militia at Kings Mountain.
 
 00:21:05.105 --> 00:21:05.204
 Right.
 
 00:21:05.986 --> 00:21:08.027
 And and that's one of one of
 
 00:21:08.106 --> 00:21:09.428
 America's two favorite
 
 00:21:09.448 --> 00:21:11.210
 battles because it's it's
 
 00:21:11.349 --> 00:21:12.611
 over mountain men.
 
 00:21:12.691 --> 00:21:14.771
 It's frontiersmen on
 
 00:21:14.833 --> 00:21:16.993
 horseback firing rifles and
 
 00:21:17.034 --> 00:21:17.775
 they're there.
 
 00:21:19.016 --> 00:21:21.217
 rugged individualists and
 
 00:21:21.517 --> 00:21:22.657
 who wouldn't like them, right?
 
 00:21:23.238 --> 00:21:25.618
 And so after that battle,
 
 00:21:25.719 --> 00:21:27.180
 what does Cornwallis do?
 
 00:21:27.619 --> 00:21:30.102
 He advances toward North Carolina.
 
 00:21:30.122 --> 00:21:31.923
 Cornwallis never counted on
 
 00:21:31.982 --> 00:21:33.202
 those militiamen,
 
 00:21:33.884 --> 00:21:35.944
 loyalist militiamen for his campaign.
 
 00:21:36.025 --> 00:21:38.306
 In fact, that was Clinton's idea.
 
 00:21:38.705 --> 00:21:39.987
 And because Cornwallis
 
 00:21:40.186 --> 00:21:42.188
 actively despised Clinton,
 
 00:21:42.567 --> 00:21:44.088
 he had no intention of
 
 00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:45.780
 of making them,
 
 00:21:46.721 --> 00:21:47.843
 he thought they would be useless.
 
 00:21:48.644 --> 00:21:50.665
 So he advances toward Charlotte,
 
 00:21:50.685 --> 00:21:51.527
 North Carolina.
 
 00:21:52.448 --> 00:21:55.990
 And in January of seventeen eighty one,
 
 00:21:56.490 --> 00:21:58.492
 a detachment of his army of
 
 00:21:58.532 --> 00:21:59.574
 about eight or nine hundred
 
 00:21:59.614 --> 00:22:01.756
 men under the feared
 
 00:22:01.836 --> 00:22:02.777
 Lieutenant Colonel
 
 00:22:02.817 --> 00:22:04.939
 Bannister Tarleton gets
 
 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:07.182
 defeated soundly by Daniel
 
 00:22:07.201 --> 00:22:08.583
 Morgan at Cowpens.
 
 00:22:09.463 --> 00:22:11.645
 And that's America's second
 
 00:22:11.665 --> 00:22:13.367
 favorite battle because
 
 00:22:13.407 --> 00:22:14.589
 Daniel Morgan was a
 
 00:22:14.650 --> 00:22:16.692
 homespun hero who somehow
 
 00:22:18.894 --> 00:22:21.017
 pulled off a double envelopment.
 
 00:22:21.817 --> 00:22:23.118
 It was accidental, by the way.
 
 00:22:23.779 --> 00:22:26.522
 And he defeated the hated Tarleton.
 
 00:22:28.328 --> 00:22:30.192
 the Cromwell of the Revolution,
 
 00:22:30.252 --> 00:22:30.933
 if you will.
 
 00:22:31.595 --> 00:22:34.618
 And he lost a lot of men.
 
 00:22:34.660 --> 00:22:36.481
 Cornwallis lost men,
 
 00:22:36.982 --> 00:22:38.465
 redcoats of the Seventy-First,
 
 00:22:38.586 --> 00:22:40.409
 the Seventh Regiment, Tartans, Redoubts.
 
 00:22:41.488 --> 00:22:43.250
 And so what did Cornwallis
 
 00:22:43.289 --> 00:22:45.070
 do after that defeat?
 
 00:22:45.191 --> 00:22:47.012
 He moved into North Carolina.
 
 00:22:47.752 --> 00:22:50.496
 He pushed the rebels out of Charlotte.
 
 00:22:50.935 --> 00:22:52.277
 He forced his way across the
 
 00:22:52.317 --> 00:22:56.079
 Catawba in North Carolina at Cowan's Ford,
 
 00:22:56.461 --> 00:22:58.001
 fought a couple skirmishes.
 
 00:22:58.541 --> 00:23:01.025
 Then he maneuvers the new
 
 00:23:01.285 --> 00:23:02.326
 American commander,
 
 00:23:02.405 --> 00:23:04.446
 Major General Nathaniel Green,
 
 00:23:05.307 --> 00:23:07.089
 and they meet up at a
 
 00:23:07.130 --> 00:23:09.030
 battle at Guilford Courthouse.
 
 00:23:10.352 --> 00:23:12.954
 It is a Pyrrhic victory for Cornwallis.
 
 00:23:13.515 --> 00:23:15.037
 And what does he do then?
 
 00:23:15.836 --> 00:23:16.897
 He retreats,
 
 00:23:18.219 --> 00:23:21.362
 retreats to the coast at
 
 00:23:21.422 --> 00:23:23.624
 Wilmington by the middle of
 
 00:23:23.723 --> 00:23:26.386
 April and decides he's
 
 00:23:26.426 --> 00:23:28.608
 going to leave North
 
 00:23:28.628 --> 00:23:30.671
 Carolina and go into Virginia.
 
 00:23:31.471 --> 00:23:33.512
 So when Cornwallis leaves Virginia,
 
 00:23:33.532 --> 00:23:35.154
 which he reached by early May,
 
 00:23:36.888 --> 00:23:38.349
 Who's in North Carolina?
 
 00:23:38.910 --> 00:23:41.191
 No British, all Americans.
 
 00:23:41.631 --> 00:23:44.092
 So which of those battles, Charleston,
 
 00:23:44.632 --> 00:23:47.573
 Kings Mountain, Cowpens, Cowan's Ford,
 
 00:23:47.932 --> 00:23:50.334
 Shallowford, Whitesell's Mill,
 
 00:23:51.295 --> 00:23:52.115
 Guilford Courthouse,
 
 00:23:52.255 --> 00:23:53.375
 which of those battles
 
 00:23:53.976 --> 00:23:55.435
 really is the one that
 
 00:23:55.556 --> 00:23:57.217
 forced Cornwallis and the
 
 00:23:57.237 --> 00:23:58.637
 British to leave North Carolina?
 
 00:23:58.657 --> 00:23:59.518
 It was Guilford Courthouse.
 
 00:23:59.817 --> 00:23:59.958
 Right.
 
 00:24:01.038 --> 00:24:01.078
 OK.
 
 00:24:01.098 --> 00:24:02.299
 We're talking with John Moss,
 
 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:04.221
 author of From Trenton to Yorktown.
 
 00:24:04.642 --> 00:24:06.762
 I'm wondering, John, as a strategist,
 
 00:24:06.903 --> 00:24:07.144
 I mean,
 
 00:24:07.304 --> 00:24:10.727
 here we are looking at this and we
 
 00:24:10.767 --> 00:24:11.686
 know what happened.
 
 00:24:12.748 --> 00:24:13.848
 What would you have
 
 00:24:13.888 --> 00:24:15.769
 suggested Cornwallis do
 
 00:24:15.851 --> 00:24:17.231
 instead of invading Virginia?
 
 00:24:18.813 --> 00:24:19.653
 You can either answer this
 
 00:24:19.692 --> 00:24:20.713
 as your John Moss or if
 
 00:24:20.753 --> 00:24:25.678
 you're Sir Henry Clinton.
 
 00:24:25.698 --> 00:24:26.858
 I won't associate myself
 
 00:24:26.878 --> 00:24:27.680
 with Sir Henry Clinton.
 
 00:24:28.769 --> 00:24:31.891
 However, I think the answer, Bob,
 
 00:24:31.951 --> 00:24:37.556
 is that they probably never
 
 00:24:37.615 --> 00:24:39.676
 should have invaded North Carolina.
 
 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:43.839
 First of all,
 
 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:45.942
 by the time he entered North Carolina,
 
 00:24:46.082 --> 00:24:47.363
 he had twenty two hundred men.
 
 00:24:47.875 --> 00:24:48.415
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:48.435 --> 00:24:49.737
 That's not an invasion.
 
 00:24:49.797 --> 00:24:50.637
 That's a raid.
 
 00:24:51.097 --> 00:24:52.298
 They're not going to subdue
 
 00:24:52.538 --> 00:24:54.320
 anybody with twenty two
 
 00:24:54.361 --> 00:24:56.301
 hundred men from the outer
 
 00:24:56.342 --> 00:25:00.605
 banks to the Blue Ridge Mountains.
 
 00:25:00.845 --> 00:25:01.945
 That's just crazy.
 
 00:25:05.048 --> 00:25:07.150
 And Green could always move
 
 00:25:07.569 --> 00:25:09.191
 across another river.
 
 00:25:09.230 --> 00:25:10.652
 That was his whole strategy.
 
 00:25:11.232 --> 00:25:11.633
 Right.
 
 00:25:11.673 --> 00:25:14.295
 They moved across the green kept.
 
 00:25:16.012 --> 00:25:18.715
 a barrier between him and
 
 00:25:18.756 --> 00:25:20.878
 Cornwallis until he was
 
 00:25:21.259 --> 00:25:23.602
 numerous enough to turn around and fight.
 
 00:25:23.642 --> 00:25:25.144
 This is a point that Larry
 
 00:25:25.163 --> 00:25:28.848
 Babbitt makes in several of
 
 00:25:28.909 --> 00:25:31.632
 his articles and books, is
 
 00:25:33.991 --> 00:25:35.092
 When the British got across
 
 00:25:35.132 --> 00:25:36.373
 the Catawba near Charlotte,
 
 00:25:37.054 --> 00:25:38.074
 the Americans retreated
 
 00:25:38.094 --> 00:25:39.194
 across the Yadkin.
 
 00:25:39.535 --> 00:25:41.316
 When Cornwallis crossed the Yadkin,
 
 00:25:41.875 --> 00:25:44.317
 they retreated across the Haw.
 
 00:25:45.137 --> 00:25:48.000
 When Cornwallis approached the Haw,
 
 00:25:48.500 --> 00:25:50.161
 they retreated across the Dan River.
 
 00:25:50.780 --> 00:25:52.102
 And Cornwallis knew, okay,
 
 00:25:52.122 --> 00:25:54.002
 how many rivers does this place have,
 
 00:25:54.022 --> 00:25:54.942
 by the way?
 
 00:25:55.044 --> 00:25:57.164
 And I'm losing men every step of the way.
 
 00:25:57.184 --> 00:25:57.325
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:57.924 --> 00:26:01.826
 So he went to North Carolina.
 
 00:26:02.286 --> 00:26:04.926
 Unless they sent an eight
 
 00:26:04.967 --> 00:26:08.208
 thousand man Navy supported
 
 00:26:08.347 --> 00:26:09.808
 expedition in North Carolina,
 
 00:26:09.848 --> 00:26:11.669
 they were never, never going to do it.
 
 00:26:12.549 --> 00:26:12.769
 Now,
 
 00:26:13.710 --> 00:26:16.270
 I think I think when he when he was in
 
 00:26:16.330 --> 00:26:17.691
 Wilmington, sitting in Wilmington,
 
 00:26:17.711 --> 00:26:18.510
 figuring out what to do,
 
 00:26:18.570 --> 00:26:19.892
 he had two choices because
 
 00:26:20.291 --> 00:26:21.592
 Green moved into South
 
 00:26:21.612 --> 00:26:23.712
 Carolina after Guilford Courthouse.
 
 00:26:24.568 --> 00:26:24.828
 Yeah,
 
 00:26:24.929 --> 00:26:26.529
 he goes back to South Carolina and
 
 00:26:26.590 --> 00:26:27.030
 holds that.
 
 00:26:27.530 --> 00:26:31.554
 Why didn't Cornwallis go back there?
 
 00:26:31.854 --> 00:26:35.016
 The Americans were never
 
 00:26:35.096 --> 00:26:37.156
 going to capture Charleston.
 
 00:26:38.038 --> 00:26:39.939
 It was just too well defended,
 
 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:41.660
 right at the water.
 
 00:26:42.020 --> 00:26:43.882
 The British had a guaranteed,
 
 00:26:44.801 --> 00:26:46.002
 basically the equivalent of
 
 00:26:46.042 --> 00:26:47.423
 having an aircraft carrier
 
 00:26:47.463 --> 00:26:50.906
 sitting right next to you.
 
 00:26:51.106 --> 00:26:51.547
 But
 
 00:26:52.010 --> 00:26:55.092
 When they went into Virginia,
 
 00:26:55.632 --> 00:26:57.853
 they had a fairly large force.
 
 00:26:57.873 --> 00:26:58.093
 I mean,
 
 00:26:58.772 --> 00:27:00.272
 the troops Cornwallis brought with
 
 00:27:00.333 --> 00:27:02.513
 him into Virginia,
 
 00:27:02.574 --> 00:27:04.153
 he only brought fifteen hundred troops,
 
 00:27:04.193 --> 00:27:06.015
 but he met up with another
 
 00:27:06.115 --> 00:27:07.214
 army under Major General
 
 00:27:07.255 --> 00:27:08.295
 William Phillips at
 
 00:27:08.355 --> 00:27:10.715
 Petersburg and also got
 
 00:27:10.776 --> 00:27:14.196
 support from other areas to
 
 00:27:14.297 --> 00:27:15.696
 get his strength up to
 
 00:27:15.737 --> 00:27:17.097
 about six thousand men.
 
 00:27:18.798 --> 00:27:20.880
 But Clinton really didn't
 
 00:27:20.900 --> 00:27:22.740
 send much support down his way.
 
 00:27:23.401 --> 00:27:25.162
 It seemed half-hearted.
 
 00:27:25.521 --> 00:27:26.442
 And you'll remember,
 
 00:27:27.083 --> 00:27:28.763
 Cornwallis went to Virginia
 
 00:27:29.775 --> 00:27:31.675
 to wreck Virginia's
 
 00:27:31.875 --> 00:27:34.156
 logistical support for the
 
 00:27:34.237 --> 00:27:35.357
 rest of the South,
 
 00:27:35.897 --> 00:27:39.460
 whereas Clinton's objective was, well,
 
 00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:40.319
 okay,
 
 00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:43.000
 but we really need a good naval base
 
 00:27:43.582 --> 00:27:45.823
 to support Navy operations
 
 00:27:45.903 --> 00:27:46.982
 in the West Indies.
 
 00:27:47.002 --> 00:27:47.143
 Right,
 
 00:27:47.683 --> 00:27:51.125
 and Charleston's a lot better for that.
 
 00:27:51.144 --> 00:27:51.204
 Yep.
 
 00:27:51.645 --> 00:27:52.125
 So... Yeah.
 
 00:27:52.145 --> 00:27:52.226
 Yeah.
 
 00:27:56.021 --> 00:28:00.385
 And Cornwallis, after he raided Virginia,
 
 00:28:00.405 --> 00:28:04.828
 that's what my book, The Road to Yorktown,
 
 00:28:04.848 --> 00:28:05.609
 is all about,
 
 00:28:05.650 --> 00:28:06.750
 was the pre-Yorktown
 
 00:28:06.770 --> 00:28:07.892
 maneuvers of Virginia.
 
 00:28:08.531 --> 00:28:10.614
 Once he got back down to the Tidewater,
 
 00:28:10.634 --> 00:28:12.295
 he became oddly lethargic,
 
 00:28:12.815 --> 00:28:15.257
 started writing Clinton letters.
 
 00:28:15.297 --> 00:28:16.518
 Hey, what am I supposed to do?
 
 00:28:16.898 --> 00:28:17.759
 What do you want me to do?
 
 00:28:17.858 --> 00:28:19.079
 Okay, I'll wait here.
 
 00:28:19.780 --> 00:28:21.102
 He wasn't the bold commander
 
 00:28:21.122 --> 00:28:23.103
 that he was from Charleston to Guilford.
 
 00:28:23.123 --> 00:28:24.805
 Interesting.
 
 00:28:25.815 --> 00:28:26.954
 We're talking with John Moss,
 
 00:28:27.055 --> 00:28:28.796
 author of From Trenton to Yorktown,
 
 00:28:28.855 --> 00:28:31.676
 Turning Points of the Revolutionary War.
 
 00:28:32.136 --> 00:28:32.277
 John,
 
 00:28:33.017 --> 00:28:35.356
 why don't we go back to the beginning?
 
 00:28:35.698 --> 00:28:37.597
 I know, by the way, you did not mention,
 
 00:28:37.657 --> 00:28:39.157
 you don't have chapters on Lexington,
 
 00:28:39.198 --> 00:28:40.519
 Concord, Bunker Hill,
 
 00:28:40.638 --> 00:28:42.479
 our favorite battles here,
 
 00:28:42.778 --> 00:28:43.799
 but you begin with the ten
 
 00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:45.740
 crucial days of the Trenton
 
 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:49.080
 and Princeton campaign.
 
 00:28:49.121 --> 00:28:50.101
 So is your question,
 
 00:28:50.141 --> 00:28:52.041
 why didn't I include the- No, no, no, no,
 
 00:28:52.061 --> 00:28:52.102
 no.
 
 00:28:55.454 --> 00:28:58.016
 Well, I'm curious then about why Trenton,
 
 00:28:58.135 --> 00:29:00.057
 what do you see as the Trenton Princeton?
 
 00:29:00.096 --> 00:29:01.757
 What's the real decisive
 
 00:29:02.597 --> 00:29:03.778
 thing happening there?
 
 00:29:04.458 --> 00:29:12.281
 So if you go from Boston to
 
 00:29:12.342 --> 00:29:14.282
 the day before the Battle
 
 00:29:14.323 --> 00:29:17.124
 of Long Island in August of
 
 00:29:20.748 --> 00:29:21.887
 Washington had a lot of troops.
 
 00:29:21.907 --> 00:29:24.568
 And he had, you know, very, you know,
 
 00:29:24.588 --> 00:29:26.569
 it's always hard, as most folks know,
 
 00:29:26.589 --> 00:29:27.250
 it's always hard to get a
 
 00:29:27.891 --> 00:29:30.111
 real pin down the numbers
 
 00:29:30.151 --> 00:29:32.612
 of American troops on any given day.
 
 00:29:33.653 --> 00:29:35.972
 But roughly, you know, fluctuating,
 
 00:29:36.473 --> 00:29:37.253
 let's say,
 
 00:29:37.713 --> 00:29:40.355
 eighteen to twenty thousand in
 
 00:29:40.394 --> 00:29:41.515
 and around New York City.
 
 00:29:41.555 --> 00:29:44.036
 That includes Long Island, Long Island,
 
 00:29:44.395 --> 00:29:47.317
 Staten Island, on the New Jersey side,
 
 00:29:47.356 --> 00:29:47.958
 Manhattan.
 
 00:29:50.842 --> 00:29:53.523
 When the New York battle started then,
 
 00:29:54.163 --> 00:29:55.765
 he was defeated at Long Island,
 
 00:29:56.746 --> 00:29:58.267
 also known as the Battle of Brooklyn.
 
 00:29:59.647 --> 00:30:02.269
 Has to leave Manhattan after
 
 00:30:02.390 --> 00:30:04.211
 the British land at Kipps
 
 00:30:04.250 --> 00:30:06.231
 Bay and other places.
 
 00:30:07.553 --> 00:30:09.054
 Has a fairly successful day
 
 00:30:09.094 --> 00:30:09.773
 at Harlem Heights,
 
 00:30:09.814 --> 00:30:11.174
 but he still retreated.
 
 00:30:11.635 --> 00:30:14.356
 Kind of got pushed off of White Plains.
 
 00:30:14.738 --> 00:30:15.317
 And then there were the
 
 00:30:15.357 --> 00:30:16.679
 disasters at Fort
 
 00:30:16.719 --> 00:30:18.380
 Washington and Fort Lee.
 
 00:30:20.018 --> 00:30:21.720
 Washington was losing men
 
 00:30:21.980 --> 00:30:24.320
 every single day he retreated,
 
 00:30:24.781 --> 00:30:27.243
 and he retreated from Hackensack,
 
 00:30:27.304 --> 00:30:28.003
 New Jersey,
 
 00:30:28.744 --> 00:30:30.066
 all the way across northern
 
 00:30:30.086 --> 00:30:32.106
 New Jersey into Pennsylvania,
 
 00:30:32.166 --> 00:30:33.147
 so that by the time he
 
 00:30:33.188 --> 00:30:34.009
 crossed the Trenton,
 
 00:30:35.648 --> 00:30:38.289
 And he had only about twenty
 
 00:30:38.329 --> 00:30:39.651
 five hundred continentals.
 
 00:30:40.111 --> 00:30:41.530
 The New Jersey militia was
 
 00:30:41.570 --> 00:30:42.731
 leaving in droves.
 
 00:30:44.031 --> 00:30:45.573
 Americans in parts of
 
 00:30:45.613 --> 00:30:46.973
 Pennsylvania and almost all
 
 00:30:47.034 --> 00:30:48.273
 across northern New Jersey
 
 00:30:48.753 --> 00:30:50.714
 were looking at the situation saying, hmm,
 
 00:30:50.734 --> 00:30:52.496
 I don't know about this.
 
 00:30:52.736 --> 00:30:53.435
 I think I'll take the
 
 00:30:53.476 --> 00:30:54.356
 loyalty oath for the
 
 00:30:54.376 --> 00:30:55.737
 British because they seem
 
 00:30:55.757 --> 00:30:57.798
 to be doing pretty darn well here.
 
 00:30:58.659 --> 00:31:01.500
 And so by mid-December,
 
 00:31:01.821 --> 00:31:03.403
 Washington realized his
 
 00:31:03.482 --> 00:31:04.344
 army was shrinking.
 
 00:31:04.824 --> 00:31:06.185
 Half of his Continental's
 
 00:31:06.925 --> 00:31:07.946
 enlistments were going to
 
 00:31:08.007 --> 00:31:09.848
 expire at the end of December.
 
 00:31:10.450 --> 00:31:12.230
 So he literally had this
 
 00:31:12.290 --> 00:31:15.354
 deadline that if he didn't use his army,
 
 00:31:15.534 --> 00:31:16.775
 he wasn't going to have it
 
 00:31:16.875 --> 00:31:17.935
 on January first.
 
 00:31:19.978 --> 00:31:23.781
 But he also got a lot of great support and
 
 00:31:24.579 --> 00:31:25.720
 There's other authors that
 
 00:31:26.180 --> 00:31:27.500
 have been able to write
 
 00:31:27.800 --> 00:31:29.441
 monographs about this that
 
 00:31:29.980 --> 00:31:32.221
 I had to limit my tale
 
 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:33.122
 because of my chapters,
 
 00:31:33.602 --> 00:31:37.821
 but folks like Larry Kidder
 
 00:31:37.842 --> 00:31:41.163
 and David Hackett Fisher's
 
 00:31:41.202 --> 00:31:42.742
 book on Washington Crossing,
 
 00:31:45.263 --> 00:31:48.443
 Arthur Lefkowitz, folks like that,
 
 00:31:48.604 --> 00:31:49.183
 and others,
 
 00:31:50.045 --> 00:31:51.744
 Bill Welch's written articles.
 
 00:31:53.117 --> 00:31:53.778
 David Price,
 
 00:31:53.798 --> 00:31:54.499
 I don't want to leave anybody
 
 00:31:54.598 --> 00:31:55.619
 out because there's a lot
 
 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:56.760
 of good scholarship who
 
 00:31:56.820 --> 00:31:57.622
 helped me on this.
 
 00:31:58.082 --> 00:32:00.084
 But he had to do something.
 
 00:32:00.703 --> 00:32:03.227
 And so he got a lot of
 
 00:32:03.287 --> 00:32:05.327
 support from some key
 
 00:32:07.670 --> 00:32:10.132
 militia commanders and even
 
 00:32:10.192 --> 00:32:11.993
 civilian leaders in New
 
 00:32:12.054 --> 00:32:13.414
 Jersey and Pennsylvania.
 
 00:32:14.509 --> 00:32:16.371
 Cadwallader, Joseph Reed,
 
 00:32:17.613 --> 00:32:19.154
 Thomas Mifflin was there
 
 00:32:19.214 --> 00:32:20.497
 with what have you.
 
 00:32:21.198 --> 00:32:24.241
 And as most folks know,
 
 00:32:24.742 --> 00:32:25.964
 if they haven't read anything about it,
 
 00:32:25.984 --> 00:32:26.865
 they sure as hell have seen
 
 00:32:26.885 --> 00:32:27.906
 the painting of Washington
 
 00:32:27.926 --> 00:32:28.828
 crossing the Delaware.
 
 00:32:29.589 --> 00:32:30.590
 And he crosses.
 
 00:32:32.153 --> 00:32:33.473
 They capture and defeat a
 
 00:32:33.513 --> 00:32:35.875
 garrison of Hessians at Trenton.
 
 00:32:36.355 --> 00:32:38.298
 They go back into Pennsylvania,
 
 00:32:38.337 --> 00:32:39.778
 but then they cross over again.
 
 00:32:40.199 --> 00:32:41.681
 They face off against the British.
 
 00:32:41.740 --> 00:32:43.162
 It's what's called the
 
 00:32:43.201 --> 00:32:46.104
 Second Battle at Trenton
 
 00:32:48.226 --> 00:32:49.787
 along Assumpin Creek.
 
 00:32:50.907 --> 00:32:51.888
 And then the next day,
 
 00:32:51.969 --> 00:32:54.791
 they defeat a detachment of
 
 00:32:54.872 --> 00:32:56.633
 British troops at Princeton.
 
 00:32:57.012 --> 00:32:58.414
 Huge morale boost.
 
 00:32:58.855 --> 00:32:59.335
 The British...
 
 00:33:00.865 --> 00:33:03.548
 the British contract their
 
 00:33:06.431 --> 00:33:08.492
 faulty system of
 
 00:33:08.554 --> 00:33:10.214
 cantonments of their troops
 
 00:33:10.796 --> 00:33:12.238
 all across northern New Jersey.
 
 00:33:13.038 --> 00:33:16.803
 One of the most interesting
 
 00:33:16.843 --> 00:33:18.664
 things I learned about this campaign is
 
 00:33:19.502 --> 00:33:20.663
 You don't have to leave it
 
 00:33:20.963 --> 00:33:22.525
 to the Americans to tell
 
 00:33:22.565 --> 00:33:23.945
 the story about the effects
 
 00:33:24.425 --> 00:33:25.727
 because a lot of the
 
 00:33:25.747 --> 00:33:27.688
 British officers and
 
 00:33:27.847 --> 00:33:29.710
 Hessian officers and even
 
 00:33:29.809 --> 00:33:32.330
 Howe wrote themselves about
 
 00:33:32.351 --> 00:33:36.394
 the strategic effect of these victories,
 
 00:33:36.814 --> 00:33:38.454
 even though they're small
 
 00:33:38.494 --> 00:33:40.856
 by Long Island standards
 
 00:33:40.896 --> 00:33:42.178
 and Brandywine standards
 
 00:33:43.117 --> 00:33:44.278
 and Yorktown standards,
 
 00:33:44.378 --> 00:33:46.619
 Saratoga standards, but very,
 
 00:33:46.660 --> 00:33:47.661
 very decisive.
 
 00:33:47.760 --> 00:33:48.442
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:50.664 --> 00:33:53.107
 The the morale increased and
 
 00:33:53.288 --> 00:33:55.069
 when you when when how got
 
 00:33:55.109 --> 00:33:56.491
 the news Sir William Howe
 
 00:33:56.511 --> 00:33:56.832
 the British
 
 00:33:56.872 --> 00:33:58.153
 commander-in-chief in New York
 
 00:33:58.173 --> 00:33:59.835
 City when he got the news
 
 00:33:59.875 --> 00:34:01.916
 of these defeats He wrote
 
 00:34:01.957 --> 00:34:03.259
 truth germane not long
 
 00:34:03.338 --> 00:34:04.799
 after and said oh by the
 
 00:34:04.819 --> 00:34:05.961
 way I don't think I'm going
 
 00:34:05.981 --> 00:34:07.022
 to be able to win this war
 
 00:34:07.063 --> 00:34:08.403
 in seventeen seventy seven
 
 00:34:08.885 --> 00:34:09.726
 it's gonna take a little
 
 00:34:09.746 --> 00:34:10.867
 bit longer that and a whole
 
 00:34:10.907 --> 00:34:11.907
 lot more troops and
 
 00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:14.510
 Wow.
 
 00:34:14.570 --> 00:34:15.090
 And of course,
 
 00:34:15.552 --> 00:34:17.552
 Cornwallis was the general
 
 00:34:17.773 --> 00:34:19.275
 at the Second Battle of
 
 00:34:19.315 --> 00:34:20.416
 Trenton and Princeton,
 
 00:34:20.536 --> 00:34:22.016
 and he has a wonderful
 
 00:34:22.077 --> 00:34:23.719
 toast he gives at Yorktown
 
 00:34:23.778 --> 00:34:25.019
 about how history will
 
 00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:26.780
 record your victory in the Chesapeake,
 
 00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:28.702
 but we'll note the laurels
 
 00:34:28.722 --> 00:34:29.903
 you won on the Delaware.
 
 00:34:30.344 --> 00:34:32.865
 It's this smaller battle,
 
 00:34:32.965 --> 00:34:35.588
 but it is the decisive one.
 
 00:34:35.889 --> 00:34:36.469
 I'm wondering, John,
 
 00:34:36.489 --> 00:34:37.070
 you mentioned the
 
 00:34:37.090 --> 00:34:39.271
 limitation you have on chapters,
 
 00:34:39.331 --> 00:34:41.072
 so here you have five.
 
 00:34:41.313 --> 00:34:41.454
 If
 
 00:34:42.054 --> 00:34:43.414
 Your editor or publisher said,
 
 00:34:43.914 --> 00:34:46.036
 why don't we have six or seven?
 
 00:34:49.117 --> 00:34:50.097
 Which one, right?
 
 00:34:50.157 --> 00:34:54.458
 I've been asked this question before.
 
 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.960
 Well, I stuck with military events.
 
 00:35:03.001 --> 00:35:06.862
 But folks who have read Larry Ferraro's
 
 00:35:09.338 --> 00:35:11.757
 a very acclaimed book called
 
 00:35:11.798 --> 00:35:13.498
 brothers at arms the french
 
 00:35:13.518 --> 00:35:15.438
 and the spanish and the
 
 00:35:15.478 --> 00:35:19.480
 revolutionary war larry
 
 00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:21.380
 takes the position that the
 
 00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:23.320
 declaration of independence
 
 00:35:24.380 --> 00:35:26.440
 in effect was a military
 
 00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:29.481
 measure which allowed
 
 00:35:29.541 --> 00:35:31.882
 france to recognize another
 
 00:35:32.041 --> 00:35:35.503
 nation instead of a group
 
 00:35:36.402 --> 00:35:38.483
 of colonies in rebellion
 
 00:35:38.643 --> 00:35:40.003
 against the monarchy.
 
 00:35:40.704 --> 00:35:43.005
 And as folks can probably figure out,
 
 00:35:43.644 --> 00:35:45.905
 I don't think Louis XVI was
 
 00:35:46.045 --> 00:35:48.487
 really in favor of
 
 00:35:48.626 --> 00:35:50.206
 supporting publicly
 
 00:35:50.887 --> 00:35:52.788
 rebellious citizens who
 
 00:35:52.847 --> 00:35:55.068
 wanted to overthrow the monarch.
 
 00:35:55.429 --> 00:35:58.989
 And Larry goes into a lot
 
 00:35:59.010 --> 00:36:01.010
 more detail on that, but I think
 
 00:36:04.121 --> 00:36:06.563
 I think that's kind of a standalone event.
 
 00:36:06.844 --> 00:36:07.744
 I'd call it more of a
 
 00:36:07.824 --> 00:36:11.266
 diplomatic or political
 
 00:36:11.407 --> 00:36:13.148
 turning point instead of military,
 
 00:36:13.188 --> 00:36:15.789
 but I was very tempted to include that.
 
 00:36:17.711 --> 00:36:18.913
 But eventually, you know,
 
 00:36:18.932 --> 00:36:20.594
 my discussions with the
 
 00:36:20.693 --> 00:36:21.954
 editors and the publishers who,
 
 00:36:22.255 --> 00:36:22.735
 by the way,
 
 00:36:22.775 --> 00:36:26.018
 were incredibly supportive of the book.
 
 00:36:26.998 --> 00:36:27.838
 I don't want to imply that
 
 00:36:27.858 --> 00:36:28.619
 there was some kind of a
 
 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:32.382
 debate that we disagreed with, but...
 
 00:36:33.905 --> 00:36:35.045
 No, it happens.
 
 00:36:35.085 --> 00:36:36.045
 You learn a lot in these
 
 00:36:36.085 --> 00:36:37.626
 discussions with editors
 
 00:36:37.666 --> 00:36:39.327
 and publishers who can look
 
 00:36:39.347 --> 00:36:40.827
 at things with a clear eye.
 
 00:36:40.927 --> 00:36:41.807
 And agents, too.
 
 00:36:43.347 --> 00:36:44.528
 They also add a lot, too.
 
 00:36:44.688 --> 00:36:45.068
 Mine did.
 
 00:36:45.088 --> 00:36:46.869
 Yeah, that's very good.
 
 00:36:46.929 --> 00:36:47.849
 Well, thank you so much.
 
 00:36:47.869 --> 00:36:49.351
 We have been talking with John Moss,
 
 00:36:49.530 --> 00:36:51.451
 author of From Trenton to Yorktown,
 
 00:36:51.510 --> 00:36:53.532
 Turning Points of the Revolutionary War.
 
 00:36:53.972 --> 00:36:55.313
 Anything else we should say, John,
 
 00:36:55.353 --> 00:36:56.373
 before we let you go?
 
 00:36:56.512 --> 00:36:58.554
 I know you have a full-time job.
 
 00:37:01.204 --> 00:37:04.186
 Well, I hope folks get a lot out of it.
 
 00:37:04.827 --> 00:37:08.028
 I wrote the book to be provocative,
 
 00:37:08.489 --> 00:37:09.911
 not in the sense of saying
 
 00:37:10.030 --> 00:37:13.253
 anything inflammatory,
 
 00:37:13.293 --> 00:37:15.255
 but I mean to provoke discussion.
 
 00:37:16.074 --> 00:37:19.177
 And my speaking engagements
 
 00:37:19.197 --> 00:37:23.400
 that I've had so far have
 
 00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:24.201
 really done that,
 
 00:37:24.362 --> 00:37:25.943
 and it's been fun because
 
 00:37:26.003 --> 00:37:34.689
 some folks will say –
 
 00:37:30.121 --> 00:37:31.483
 How in the world isn't
 
 00:37:31.543 --> 00:37:34.226
 Bunker Hill a turning point?
 
 00:37:35.246 --> 00:37:36.949
 Well, it might have been, but...
 
 00:37:37.815 --> 00:37:38.215
 again,
 
 00:37:38.597 --> 00:37:41.297
 did it turn things toward eventual
 
 00:37:41.378 --> 00:37:41.778
 victory?
 
 00:37:41.798 --> 00:37:42.079
 Yeah.
 
 00:37:43.579 --> 00:37:45.800
 But I'm more than willing to talk to,
 
 00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:47.322
 and I wouldn't even say
 
 00:37:47.862 --> 00:37:49.864
 debate because that implies, you know,
 
 00:37:50.143 --> 00:37:52.445
 a conflict or disagreement necessarily.
 
 00:37:52.505 --> 00:37:55.007
 And other people have great ideas.
 
 00:37:55.186 --> 00:37:56.108
 I just hope people get
 
 00:37:56.148 --> 00:37:58.650
 something out of it that
 
 00:37:58.690 --> 00:38:00.990
 makes them think and read
 
 00:38:01.050 --> 00:38:01.952
 more and read more.
 
 00:38:01.972 --> 00:38:02.291
 Very good.
 
 00:38:03.012 --> 00:38:04.313
 Well, thank you so much, John.
 
 00:38:04.434 --> 00:38:04.893
 Thank you.
 
 00:38:06.206 --> 00:38:07.306
 We've been talking with John
 
 00:38:07.347 --> 00:38:10.309
 Moss from the National Museum of the U.S.
 
 00:38:10.389 --> 00:38:11.590
 Army at Fort Belvoir,
 
 00:38:11.751 --> 00:38:13.413
 author of From Trenton to Yorktown,
 
 00:38:13.492 --> 00:38:15.215
 Turning Points of the Revolutionary War,
 
 00:38:15.715 --> 00:38:16.795
 along with books about
 
 00:38:16.876 --> 00:38:17.896
 North Carolina in the
 
 00:38:17.916 --> 00:38:19.038
 French and Indian War,
 
 00:38:19.518 --> 00:38:27.225
 a book about Defending a New Nation, ,
 
 00:38:22.141 --> 00:38:24.784
 The Road to Yorktown,
 
 00:38:24.844 --> 00:38:26.244
 George Washington's Virginia,
 
 00:38:26.306 --> 00:38:27.806
 The Battle of Guilford Courthouse.
 
 00:38:28.827 --> 00:38:29.809
 Are you working on anything new?
 
 00:38:31.641 --> 00:38:32.081
 I am.
 
 00:38:33.563 --> 00:38:35.804
 There is a publisher called
 
 00:38:35.844 --> 00:38:36.903
 West Home Publishing,
 
 00:38:37.764 --> 00:38:39.284
 and they do a lot of good history.
 
 00:38:40.545 --> 00:38:41.146
 Fortunately,
 
 00:38:41.226 --> 00:38:43.226
 their publisher is very
 
 00:38:43.246 --> 00:38:44.887
 interested in early American history,
 
 00:38:44.907 --> 00:38:45.588
 which is great.
 
 00:38:46.288 --> 00:38:48.048
 And they have a series
 
 00:38:48.068 --> 00:38:49.409
 called Small Battles of the
 
 00:38:49.429 --> 00:38:50.329
 American Revolution.
 
 00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:52.811
 And so there's six of them
 
 00:38:52.851 --> 00:38:54.112
 that have been published so far,
 
 00:38:54.751 --> 00:38:56.472
 and I'm working on the seventh one.
 
 00:38:57.213 --> 00:38:58.773
 which is no surprise,
 
 00:38:59.393 --> 00:39:01.375
 two battles that led to Yorktown,
 
 00:39:01.414 --> 00:39:02.695
 which are Spencer's
 
 00:39:02.795 --> 00:39:05.237
 Ordinary and Green Spring,
 
 00:39:05.297 --> 00:39:06.617
 both of them in Virginia in
 
 00:39:06.657 --> 00:39:07.818
 the Williamsburg area.
 
 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:10.840
 And I'm hoping to get out.
 
 00:39:11.079 --> 00:39:13.121
 We're hoping all of us, the publisher,
 
 00:39:13.201 --> 00:39:14.922
 Bruce Franklin and I and
 
 00:39:14.981 --> 00:39:17.222
 others are hoping to get
 
 00:39:17.242 --> 00:39:18.744
 that out very soon.
 
 00:39:18.784 --> 00:39:19.264
 Very good.
 
 00:39:19.284 --> 00:39:19.864
 Well, good luck.
 
 00:39:20.085 --> 00:39:20.784
 Thank you.
 
 00:39:20.844 --> 00:39:21.385
 Thank you, sir.
 
 00:39:21.405 --> 00:39:22.146
 Appreciate you having me.
 
 00:39:22.585 --> 00:39:23.666
 Appreciate you being with us.
 
 00:39:23.706 --> 00:39:25.146
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:39:25.206 --> 00:39:27.047
 our producer and man behind the curtain,
 
 00:39:27.427 --> 00:39:28.409
 as well as our listeners.
 
 00:39:28.449 --> 00:39:29.570
 Every week we thank folks
 
 00:39:29.590 --> 00:39:31.050
 who are regular listeners.
 
 00:39:31.210 --> 00:39:32.132
 And if you are in one of
 
 00:39:32.152 --> 00:39:33.913
 these places and want some Rev.
 
 00:39:33.952 --> 00:39:35.574
 Two fifty swag or just want
 
 00:39:35.614 --> 00:39:37.556
 Jonathan to sell to give
 
 00:39:37.576 --> 00:39:38.916
 some ideas to Jonathan J.
 
 00:39:38.976 --> 00:39:41.338
 Lane at Revolution two five zero dot org.
 
 00:39:41.998 --> 00:39:43.079
 And this week I want to
 
 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:45.081
 thank our listeners in the
 
 00:39:45.101 --> 00:39:46.521
 great state of North Carolina,
 
 00:39:46.641 --> 00:39:48.764
 in Charlotte and in Winston-Salem.
 
 00:39:48.784 --> 00:39:48.903
 Right.
 
 00:39:49.764 --> 00:39:50.824
 Yeah.
 
 00:39:51.184 --> 00:39:53.967
 And here in Massachusetts, in Lexington,
 
 00:39:54.327 --> 00:39:56.371
 as well as in Woburn and Chicopee,
 
 00:39:56.851 --> 00:39:59.315
 Kirkland, Washington, Brisbane, Australia,
 
 00:39:59.355 --> 00:40:02.639
 Copenhagen, Amman, Tel Aviv, Lafayette,
 
 00:40:02.659 --> 00:40:04.440
 Louisiana, Pensacola, Florida,
 
 00:40:04.460 --> 00:40:06.043
 and all places between and beyond.
 
 00:40:06.063 --> 00:40:06.844
 Thanks for joining us.
 
 00:40:06.983 --> 00:40:08.326
 Now we'll be piped out on
 
 00:40:08.365 --> 00:40:09.067
 the road to Boston.