Black Soldiers in America's Wars: 1754 - 1865

Don Troiani's magnificently detailed battle paintings and meticulously-researched uniforms bring to life early-American military history.  He has collaborated with historian John Rees on a visual and artistic look at Black soldiers from the Seven Years War to the Civil War, in this richly-illustrated   Don Troiani's Black Soldiers in America's Wars 1754-1865.   Historian John Rees, whose previous book, They Were Good Soldiers, told the story of African-Americans in the Revolutionary War, tells us about the world of Black soldiers which his and Troiani's book brings documents. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:01.308 --> 00:00:01.969
 Hello, everyone.
 
 00:00:02.008 --> 00:00:03.111
 Welcome to the Revolution
 
 00:00:03.150 --> 00:00:04.354
 Two Fifty podcast.
 
 00:00:04.373 --> 00:00:05.115
 I'm Bob Allison,
 
 00:00:05.134 --> 00:00:05.855
 the chair of the Rev Two
 
 00:00:05.897 --> 00:00:07.059
 Fifty Advisory Group.
 
 00:00:07.099 --> 00:00:08.662
 We are a consortium of
 
 00:00:08.721 --> 00:00:09.483
 seventy five or so
 
 00:00:09.503 --> 00:00:10.265
 organizations in
 
 00:00:10.304 --> 00:00:11.305
 Massachusetts planning
 
 00:00:11.326 --> 00:00:12.268
 commemorations of the
 
 00:00:12.307 --> 00:00:14.172
 beginnings of American independence.
 
 00:00:14.718 --> 00:00:16.660
 And our guest today is John Rhys.
 
 00:00:16.739 --> 00:00:19.161
 John Rhys is an historian.
 
 00:00:19.221 --> 00:00:19.640
 Actually,
 
 00:00:19.701 --> 00:00:21.681
 he spent most of his career both
 
 00:00:21.762 --> 00:00:23.963
 as a postal worker and as a
 
 00:00:24.042 --> 00:00:25.483
 researcher into history.
 
 00:00:25.562 --> 00:00:27.884
 And his first book was They
 
 00:00:27.903 --> 00:00:29.004
 Were Good Soldiers on
 
 00:00:29.123 --> 00:00:30.164
 African Americans Who
 
 00:00:30.204 --> 00:00:31.664
 Served in the Continental Army.
 
 00:00:31.785 --> 00:00:32.746
 And we're here to talk about
 
 00:00:32.765 --> 00:00:34.246
 your new book that you did
 
 00:00:34.265 --> 00:00:35.987
 with Don Troiani, the artist,
 
 00:00:36.027 --> 00:00:37.067
 Don Troiani's Black
 
 00:00:37.127 --> 00:00:38.287
 Soldiers Serving in North
 
 00:00:38.307 --> 00:00:39.628
 America's Founding War.
 
 00:00:39.688 --> 00:00:40.988
 So, John, thanks for joining us.
 
 00:00:41.576 --> 00:00:43.497
 Well, thank you very much for having me.
 
 00:00:43.557 --> 00:00:44.598
 I really, really appreciate it.
 
 00:00:45.659 --> 00:00:46.500
 And so you've been
 
 00:00:46.720 --> 00:00:48.061
 researching and writing for
 
 00:00:48.643 --> 00:00:49.844
 close to forty years about
 
 00:00:49.884 --> 00:00:51.985
 the real experiences of
 
 00:00:52.445 --> 00:00:53.686
 ordinary men and women in
 
 00:00:53.707 --> 00:00:54.927
 the armies of the revolution.
 
 00:00:54.987 --> 00:00:55.529
 Excuse me.
 
 00:00:56.270 --> 00:00:56.469
 And
 
 00:01:00.725 --> 00:01:02.106
 this book really looks at
 
 00:01:02.347 --> 00:01:03.868
 black soldiers don treyani
 
 00:01:03.908 --> 00:01:05.170
 of course is an astounding
 
 00:01:05.650 --> 00:01:06.831
 astounding artist
 
 00:01:06.990 --> 00:01:08.231
 researcher meticulous
 
 00:01:08.251 --> 00:01:10.013
 attention to detail and
 
 00:01:10.033 --> 00:01:12.435
 your task is to explain who
 
 00:01:12.454 --> 00:01:13.355
 these people are and give
 
 00:01:13.376 --> 00:01:14.576
 this context which you've
 
 00:01:15.216 --> 00:01:16.558
 really done masterfully so
 
 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:18.680
 um how did you get into
 
 00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:19.820
 this subject by the way the
 
 00:01:19.921 --> 00:01:22.222
 underrepresented folks in the revolution
 
 00:01:22.969 --> 00:01:23.189
 Well,
 
 00:01:23.230 --> 00:01:25.632
 when I first started researching back
 
 00:01:25.691 --> 00:01:27.313
 in about nineteen eighty five,
 
 00:01:28.495 --> 00:01:30.236
 I was originally wanted to
 
 00:01:30.296 --> 00:01:33.558
 research the unit that that
 
 00:01:33.918 --> 00:01:35.439
 I portrayed in living
 
 00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:38.322
 history past time and
 
 00:01:38.362 --> 00:01:39.323
 nobody could tell me about it.
 
 00:01:39.743 --> 00:01:41.405
 So that's that's where I
 
 00:01:41.504 --> 00:01:42.585
 that's where I focus my
 
 00:01:43.126 --> 00:01:44.168
 original research.
 
 00:01:44.227 --> 00:01:44.367
 But
 
 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:46.740
 Then and then later,
 
 00:01:48.003 --> 00:01:49.183
 I came across all these
 
 00:01:49.284 --> 00:01:52.968
 other tidbits about women, about food,
 
 00:01:53.007 --> 00:01:54.468
 about what soldiers carried.
 
 00:01:55.911 --> 00:01:58.293
 You know, I could go on and on.
 
 00:01:58.834 --> 00:01:59.534
 And luckily,
 
 00:01:59.573 --> 00:02:02.197
 I had the foresight at that point to just,
 
 00:02:03.578 --> 00:02:04.680
 since I wasn't researching that,
 
 00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:05.801
 but I just set it aside.
 
 00:02:05.861 --> 00:02:06.981
 I copied it and set it aside.
 
 00:02:08.598 --> 00:02:09.479
 And that's what happened
 
 00:02:09.498 --> 00:02:11.019
 eventually with black
 
 00:02:11.058 --> 00:02:13.161
 soldiers serving in the war.
 
 00:02:14.061 --> 00:02:14.882
 I first read Benjamin
 
 00:02:14.901 --> 00:02:17.062
 Quarles' Negroes in the
 
 00:02:17.082 --> 00:02:17.763
 American Revolution,
 
 00:02:18.924 --> 00:02:20.485
 which a lot of people might
 
 00:02:20.525 --> 00:02:21.786
 think is dated because it
 
 00:02:22.006 --> 00:02:23.887
 was written like in the year.
 
 00:02:25.348 --> 00:02:25.627
 And yes,
 
 00:02:25.647 --> 00:02:26.528
 there's been a lot of research
 
 00:02:26.829 --> 00:02:27.748
 that's been done since then,
 
 00:02:27.769 --> 00:02:29.169
 but still it's a really,
 
 00:02:29.250 --> 00:02:32.271
 really good overview of
 
 00:02:32.312 --> 00:02:33.413
 black service during the war.
 
 00:02:35.354 --> 00:02:37.275
 And then I started on my own
 
 00:02:37.969 --> 00:02:40.712
 coming across information on
 
 00:02:40.752 --> 00:02:41.453
 Black soldiers,
 
 00:02:42.974 --> 00:02:44.735
 some of which hadn't seen
 
 00:02:44.895 --> 00:02:45.917
 the light of day before.
 
 00:02:46.717 --> 00:02:47.639
 So I eventually,
 
 00:02:48.819 --> 00:02:52.443
 that resulted in two small articles.
 
 00:02:52.522 --> 00:02:54.344
 Actually, one was a bit larger.
 
 00:02:54.945 --> 00:02:56.366
 The first article was just an overview.
 
 00:02:57.467 --> 00:02:58.268
 The second article was
 
 00:02:58.328 --> 00:03:00.429
 actually on black soldiers
 
 00:03:00.669 --> 00:03:02.028
 serving in southern regiments.
 
 00:03:02.049 --> 00:03:02.389
 Okay.
 
 00:03:02.408 --> 00:03:05.129
 That's very interesting.
 
 00:03:05.169 --> 00:03:05.250
 Yeah.
 
 00:03:05.270 --> 00:03:06.289
 Well, because everybody, I mean,
 
 00:03:06.811 --> 00:03:07.991
 I think most people would think of,
 
 00:03:08.050 --> 00:03:08.270
 you know,
 
 00:03:08.311 --> 00:03:09.131
 southern regiments and they
 
 00:03:09.151 --> 00:03:10.692
 would think that there
 
 00:03:11.211 --> 00:03:12.551
 can't be any black soldiers
 
 00:03:12.572 --> 00:03:14.032
 there because of the
 
 00:03:14.072 --> 00:03:16.432
 stereotype of the
 
 00:03:16.473 --> 00:03:17.393
 nineteenth century south.
 
 00:03:17.973 --> 00:03:19.653
 Right.
 
 00:03:19.854 --> 00:03:19.933
 Yeah.
 
 00:03:19.954 --> 00:03:20.473
 And unfortunately,
 
 00:03:20.493 --> 00:03:21.413
 the twentieth century south
 
 00:03:21.715 --> 00:03:22.634
 or twentieth century America.
 
 00:03:24.087 --> 00:03:26.389
 But there were quite a few
 
 00:03:26.408 --> 00:03:27.289
 black soldiers serving the
 
 00:03:27.330 --> 00:03:27.969
 Continental regiments.
 
 00:03:27.990 --> 00:03:29.631
 In fact, there were,
 
 00:03:29.651 --> 00:03:33.212
 I did a lot of calculations
 
 00:03:33.413 --> 00:03:34.493
 and if you look at
 
 00:03:34.533 --> 00:03:35.875
 percentages compared to New
 
 00:03:35.914 --> 00:03:36.594
 England regiments,
 
 00:03:37.395 --> 00:03:38.575
 some of the Southern
 
 00:03:39.217 --> 00:03:40.377
 regiments or Southern
 
 00:03:41.318 --> 00:03:42.277
 contingents actually
 
 00:03:42.518 --> 00:03:45.000
 matched up with the size of
 
 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:46.381
 the New England regiments.
 
 00:03:48.701 --> 00:03:52.123
 And then eventually a friend,
 
 00:03:52.658 --> 00:03:53.800
 convinced me to join LinkedIn,
 
 00:03:54.060 --> 00:03:54.980
 even though I really had no
 
 00:03:55.040 --> 00:03:55.961
 reason to join LinkedIn.
 
 00:03:57.804 --> 00:03:59.164
 And that was Todd Braystead, by the way.
 
 00:03:59.765 --> 00:04:03.229
 And so I joined and about
 
 00:04:03.909 --> 00:04:05.031
 eight years after I joined,
 
 00:04:06.572 --> 00:04:07.453
 an editor in England
 
 00:04:08.373 --> 00:04:09.174
 contacted me because I
 
 00:04:09.193 --> 00:04:10.294
 would post more articles on
 
 00:04:10.355 --> 00:04:11.516
 my LinkedIn bio.
 
 00:04:12.518 --> 00:04:13.860
 And one of the articles was
 
 00:04:13.900 --> 00:04:15.001
 black soldiers was the
 
 00:04:15.061 --> 00:04:15.882
 Southern black soldiers.
 
 00:04:16.843 --> 00:04:17.744
 Would you want to do a book
 
 00:04:17.964 --> 00:04:19.305
 on that subject or any other?
 
 00:04:19.365 --> 00:04:20.987
 Uh,
 
 00:04:21.028 --> 00:04:23.571
 so I considered maybe doing another
 
 00:04:23.610 --> 00:04:25.413
 subject, but I knew I had to do it on,
 
 00:04:25.634 --> 00:04:25.954
 on the black.
 
 00:04:25.994 --> 00:04:27.555
 No, no, no.
 
 00:04:27.576 --> 00:04:28.557
 It's interesting because I
 
 00:04:28.637 --> 00:04:29.538
 noticed it was a British
 
 00:04:29.738 --> 00:04:30.759
 publisher who did that.
 
 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:31.160
 Yes.
 
 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:31.401
 Yeah.
 
 00:04:31.420 --> 00:04:31.500
 Yeah.
 
 00:04:31.821 --> 00:04:32.562
 Yeah.
 
 00:04:33.473 --> 00:04:34.555
 and and you found so I mean
 
 00:04:34.675 --> 00:04:35.516
 andrew pebbles is a
 
 00:04:35.555 --> 00:04:36.697
 character who really stands
 
 00:04:36.737 --> 00:04:38.338
 out and he's fighting in
 
 00:04:38.598 --> 00:04:39.899
 henry well henry lawrence
 
 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:41.079
 is commanding his unit john
 
 00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:42.120
 lawrence is commanding the
 
 00:04:42.161 --> 00:04:44.163
 unit he's in he also served
 
 00:04:44.223 --> 00:04:45.723
 under uh light horse harry
 
 00:04:45.764 --> 00:04:46.564
 lee can you talk a little
 
 00:04:46.584 --> 00:04:47.485
 bit more about andrew
 
 00:04:47.526 --> 00:04:50.327
 pebbles this uh yeah I mean
 
 00:04:50.408 --> 00:04:51.048
 there are other black
 
 00:04:51.088 --> 00:04:53.250
 soldiers uh who southern
 
 00:04:53.269 --> 00:04:54.230
 black soldiers who had some
 
 00:04:54.290 --> 00:04:55.232
 interesting histories but
 
 00:04:55.252 --> 00:04:56.473
 he he seemed to have had
 
 00:04:56.512 --> 00:04:59.595
 the the most varied um yeah he joined
 
 00:05:00.456 --> 00:05:01.396
 He joined the Fifteenth
 
 00:05:01.755 --> 00:05:03.956
 Virginia Regiment while it
 
 00:05:03.976 --> 00:05:04.797
 was at Valley Forge.
 
 00:05:05.838 --> 00:05:07.478
 And that was in seventeen seventy seven,
 
 00:05:07.497 --> 00:05:08.879
 seventeen, seventeen seventy eight.
 
 00:05:10.738 --> 00:05:13.220
 Not long after he was he was
 
 00:05:13.420 --> 00:05:14.180
 assigned to the First
 
 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:15.680
 Continental Artillery,
 
 00:05:16.641 --> 00:05:17.901
 probably as a matros,
 
 00:05:18.721 --> 00:05:19.762
 but we don't know for sure.
 
 00:05:20.221 --> 00:05:20.903
 Can you tell us what a
 
 00:05:20.923 --> 00:05:22.202
 matros is for those who might not?
 
 00:05:22.583 --> 00:05:23.785
 A Matrosa is basically an
 
 00:05:23.845 --> 00:05:24.747
 artillery laborer.
 
 00:05:24.766 --> 00:05:26.990
 Uh, they're, they're, they're not the,
 
 00:05:27.011 --> 00:05:28.353
 they're not the skilled artillerists,
 
 00:05:28.413 --> 00:05:29.755
 but they're, they're there to do the,
 
 00:05:29.776 --> 00:05:30.497
 do the grunt work,
 
 00:05:30.797 --> 00:05:32.661
 hauling the artillery about, um,
 
 00:05:33.860 --> 00:05:35.581
 And a lot of times they did
 
 00:05:35.721 --> 00:05:37.723
 take drafts out of foot
 
 00:05:37.783 --> 00:05:39.904
 regiments to augment the artillery.
 
 00:05:41.185 --> 00:05:43.028
 So he was with the artillery for a year.
 
 00:05:43.127 --> 00:05:43.848
 And then he,
 
 00:05:44.249 --> 00:05:46.350
 I think he had signed on for three years.
 
 00:05:47.451 --> 00:05:48.612
 At the end of his three years,
 
 00:05:49.333 --> 00:05:50.894
 he signed on with Lee's Legion.
 
 00:05:52.295 --> 00:05:54.677
 And as you said, under Henry Lee,
 
 00:05:54.716 --> 00:05:55.077
 Harry Lee,
 
 00:05:56.151 --> 00:05:56.612
 who, of course,
 
 00:05:56.632 --> 00:05:57.833
 was the father of Robert E. Lee.
 
 00:05:59.213 --> 00:06:02.415
 And he was at,
 
 00:06:02.475 --> 00:06:03.476
 I think it was Utah Springs.
 
 00:06:03.497 --> 00:06:05.317
 He got three wounds.
 
 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:09.940
 And then eventually he
 
 00:06:10.521 --> 00:06:11.541
 served in the Deep South in
 
 00:06:11.622 --> 00:06:12.362
 South Carolina.
 
 00:06:13.523 --> 00:06:14.644
 And he was at the battle.
 
 00:06:15.584 --> 00:06:16.406
 the Combahee River,
 
 00:06:16.567 --> 00:06:18.689
 where John Lawrence was killed,
 
 00:06:18.728 --> 00:06:20.110
 and that occurred right
 
 00:06:20.130 --> 00:06:23.355
 before he was mustered out.
 
 00:06:23.394 --> 00:06:24.355
 So, you know, it's,
 
 00:06:24.596 --> 00:06:28.240
 and then on top of that, he left a,
 
 00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:31.144
 as did a few other soldiers, he left a,
 
 00:06:31.403 --> 00:06:32.305
 in his
 
 00:06:34.562 --> 00:06:35.783
 his pension file there's a
 
 00:06:35.802 --> 00:06:36.622
 there's a piece where he's
 
 00:06:37.423 --> 00:06:38.264
 he's saying that you know
 
 00:06:38.324 --> 00:06:40.225
 I'm a uh I think he was
 
 00:06:40.264 --> 00:06:42.026
 working for miller um yeah
 
 00:06:42.065 --> 00:06:43.466
 but his his what his wife
 
 00:06:43.487 --> 00:06:44.208
 and his daughter were both
 
 00:06:44.247 --> 00:06:45.968
 enslaved and this and this
 
 00:06:46.168 --> 00:06:47.230
 was would have been during
 
 00:06:47.250 --> 00:06:48.449
 the war but also post-war
 
 00:06:49.531 --> 00:06:51.752
 so with my first book
 
 00:06:51.791 --> 00:06:55.033
 especially I tried to I
 
 00:06:55.074 --> 00:06:56.194
 tried to talk about what
 
 00:06:56.235 --> 00:06:57.014
 happened to these soldiers
 
 00:06:57.074 --> 00:06:58.675
 post-war and tried to
 
 00:06:58.716 --> 00:06:59.877
 extend it on into the
 
 00:07:02.774 --> 00:07:04.115
 see a little bit of you know
 
 00:07:04.134 --> 00:07:06.255
 where were the army and and
 
 00:07:06.315 --> 00:07:07.456
 where those soldiers ended
 
 00:07:07.516 --> 00:07:09.156
 up and and where society
 
 00:07:09.776 --> 00:07:10.877
 was heading at that point
 
 00:07:10.937 --> 00:07:12.738
 yeah yeah I mean you make
 
 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:13.619
 the point that some were
 
 00:07:13.678 --> 00:07:15.259
 free some were enslaved and
 
 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:16.060
 I wonder if you talk a
 
 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:17.321
 little bit about that as
 
 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:18.680
 you know it gets also to
 
 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:20.081
 motivation for service and
 
 00:07:20.122 --> 00:07:21.382
 other things well that's
 
 00:07:21.663 --> 00:07:22.882
 that's that's the most
 
 00:07:22.923 --> 00:07:25.384
 interesting um I mean I
 
 00:07:25.423 --> 00:07:26.865
 think it's I've always
 
 00:07:26.884 --> 00:07:27.745
 thought it was interesting
 
 00:07:27.785 --> 00:07:28.745
 but in the light of recent
 
 00:07:28.786 --> 00:07:31.286
 research uh there's a um
 
 00:07:32.807 --> 00:07:33.307
 There's an August,
 
 00:07:33.327 --> 00:07:34.028
 seventeen seventy eight
 
 00:07:34.048 --> 00:07:35.168
 return of fifteen brigades
 
 00:07:35.189 --> 00:07:36.029
 of Washington's army.
 
 00:07:36.630 --> 00:07:37.791
 And it's we call it it's
 
 00:07:37.812 --> 00:07:38.752
 called the return of the
 
 00:07:38.793 --> 00:07:39.634
 Negroes in the army.
 
 00:07:40.954 --> 00:07:41.755
 For the longest time,
 
 00:07:41.795 --> 00:07:42.656
 we thought that thought
 
 00:07:42.677 --> 00:07:44.278
 that those were just all
 
 00:07:44.317 --> 00:07:45.399
 the black soldiers in the army.
 
 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:48.661
 But in his discussion with
 
 00:07:48.762 --> 00:07:51.064
 my my friend and cousin and
 
 00:07:52.505 --> 00:07:55.769
 and excellent researcher Matthew White,
 
 00:07:58.451 --> 00:07:59.851
 He's done an in-depth study
 
 00:08:00.012 --> 00:08:00.872
 on that return.
 
 00:08:00.892 --> 00:08:03.254
 It basically shows that
 
 00:08:03.934 --> 00:08:05.454
 those were all the enslaved
 
 00:08:05.475 --> 00:08:06.295
 soldiers in the army.
 
 00:08:06.334 --> 00:08:06.954
 So at that point,
 
 00:08:06.975 --> 00:08:07.656
 there were seven hundred
 
 00:08:07.675 --> 00:08:08.815
 and fifty-five enslaved
 
 00:08:08.836 --> 00:08:11.997
 soldiers in the army.
 
 00:08:12.038 --> 00:08:13.057
 What we don't know at that
 
 00:08:13.098 --> 00:08:14.079
 point is how many free
 
 00:08:14.098 --> 00:08:15.399
 soldiers were in the army.
 
 00:08:15.418 --> 00:08:19.281
 And it's possible they were
 
 00:08:19.341 --> 00:08:20.682
 on par with the enslaved soldiers.
 
 00:08:20.841 --> 00:08:22.062
 It's even possible that they
 
 00:08:22.081 --> 00:08:23.543
 were fewer than the enslaved soldiers,
 
 00:08:23.723 --> 00:08:24.742
 but we just don't know.
 
 00:08:27.355 --> 00:08:28.937
 And even though actually he
 
 00:08:28.956 --> 00:08:31.819
 just found out that he's
 
 00:08:31.858 --> 00:08:32.620
 doing a lot of great work.
 
 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:34.100
 He just found out that there
 
 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:35.481
 was a there was a black
 
 00:08:35.522 --> 00:08:36.562
 soldier and enslaved
 
 00:08:36.582 --> 00:08:37.263
 soldiers served in
 
 00:08:37.283 --> 00:08:38.244
 seventeen seventy five.
 
 00:08:40.446 --> 00:08:41.826
 I think I can't remember.
 
 00:08:42.206 --> 00:08:42.967
 I think it's a twenty six
 
 00:08:43.008 --> 00:08:43.528
 continental regiment,
 
 00:08:43.548 --> 00:08:45.288
 but I can't quite remember.
 
 00:08:45.769 --> 00:08:47.691
 But and.
 
 00:08:49.613 --> 00:08:51.333
 As a result of the of the
 
 00:08:51.374 --> 00:08:52.914
 paper discussion of whether
 
 00:08:53.095 --> 00:08:54.056
 black soldiers were going
 
 00:08:54.076 --> 00:08:55.557
 to serve in seventeen seventy five,
 
 00:08:56.412 --> 00:08:57.072
 Um,
 
 00:08:57.133 --> 00:08:58.394
 and the thing is during that whole
 
 00:08:58.413 --> 00:08:59.174
 paper discussion,
 
 00:08:59.456 --> 00:09:01.337
 those black soldiers continued to serve,
 
 00:09:01.677 --> 00:09:08.267
 um, you know, during the, and on the ,
 
 00:09:05.442 --> 00:09:06.842
 but with the new recruiting
 
 00:09:06.863 --> 00:09:08.105
 instructions in February,
 
 00:09:10.094 --> 00:09:11.654
 all that all it says was was
 
 00:09:12.054 --> 00:09:15.615
 uh it wanted free men they
 
 00:09:15.655 --> 00:09:17.697
 wanted to list free men no
 
 00:09:17.736 --> 00:09:20.658
 slaves so this man actually
 
 00:09:20.678 --> 00:09:21.719
 does not appear on the
 
 00:09:21.739 --> 00:09:23.679
 rolls in so there's so they
 
 00:09:23.740 --> 00:09:25.341
 they actually stood by that
 
 00:09:26.020 --> 00:09:26.900
 but even though he was with
 
 00:09:26.941 --> 00:09:27.942
 the regiment because he was
 
 00:09:28.121 --> 00:09:28.961
 he was enslaved by one of
 
 00:09:28.981 --> 00:09:31.143
 the officers and then and
 
 00:09:31.182 --> 00:09:33.083
 then he he enlisted again in um and
 
 00:09:36.926 --> 00:09:37.966
 If you look at Connecticut,
 
 00:09:38.106 --> 00:09:39.067
 especially Connecticut,
 
 00:09:39.086 --> 00:09:40.567
 but even Massachusetts and
 
 00:09:40.628 --> 00:09:41.528
 even southern states,
 
 00:09:43.029 --> 00:09:44.049
 a lot of those states,
 
 00:09:44.389 --> 00:09:45.490
 but especially Connecticut
 
 00:09:45.770 --> 00:09:47.731
 and to a lesser extent Massachusetts,
 
 00:09:48.332 --> 00:09:49.732
 they had a lot of enslaved soldiers.
 
 00:09:53.294 --> 00:09:54.375
 A lot of it was masters
 
 00:09:55.797 --> 00:09:56.716
 placing their slaves in the
 
 00:09:56.756 --> 00:09:58.577
 armies basically in place
 
 00:09:58.618 --> 00:09:59.999
 of the masters serving themselves.
 
 00:10:01.780 --> 00:10:02.600
 Sometimes the slaves
 
 00:10:02.640 --> 00:10:04.081
 enlisted without the master's knowledge.
 
 00:10:04.461 --> 00:10:06.361
 And John Hannigan,
 
 00:10:06.422 --> 00:10:08.023
 who's also done a lot of great work,
 
 00:10:08.842 --> 00:10:13.163
 he found an account of, I think it's, in,
 
 00:10:13.203 --> 00:10:15.884
 and I think the man was
 
 00:10:15.924 --> 00:10:18.946
 actually a short-term levy
 
 00:10:18.966 --> 00:10:19.666
 with the Continental Army.
 
 00:10:21.962 --> 00:10:22.982
 But his master came to claim
 
 00:10:23.023 --> 00:10:23.823
 him at West Point.
 
 00:10:24.504 --> 00:10:26.744
 And the officer said, no, he's enlisted.
 
 00:10:26.823 --> 00:10:28.065
 You can have him when his
 
 00:10:28.105 --> 00:10:29.465
 enlistment is over.
 
 00:10:30.245 --> 00:10:31.765
 And there are instances when
 
 00:10:31.806 --> 00:10:32.625
 masters were allowed to
 
 00:10:32.666 --> 00:10:33.385
 take their slaves out of
 
 00:10:33.405 --> 00:10:34.567
 the army when they enlisted without.
 
 00:10:34.586 --> 00:10:35.866
 But in this instance,
 
 00:10:36.366 --> 00:10:37.187
 they wouldn't release them.
 
 00:10:39.227 --> 00:10:42.089
 So there's so, so, so many great stories.
 
 00:10:42.109 --> 00:10:44.009
 And this is just in the eight years,
 
 00:10:44.129 --> 00:10:45.349
 you know, in the year, you know,
 
 00:10:45.369 --> 00:10:46.129
 seventeen seventy five,
 
 00:10:46.169 --> 00:10:46.950
 seventeen eighty three.
 
 00:10:47.029 --> 00:10:48.590
 So you take it beyond that.
 
 00:10:48.649 --> 00:10:50.591
 It just really opens it up.
 
 00:10:50.630 --> 00:10:50.770
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:51.812 --> 00:10:53.192
 Now, one of the really interesting,
 
 00:10:53.232 --> 00:10:54.113
 many interesting things
 
 00:10:54.153 --> 00:10:55.974
 about the book is it starts
 
 00:10:56.033 --> 00:10:57.375
 before the Revolution with
 
 00:10:57.394 --> 00:10:58.196
 the Seven Years War,
 
 00:10:58.255 --> 00:10:59.755
 which you don't often think about,
 
 00:10:59.796 --> 00:11:02.298
 but you show how much Black
 
 00:11:02.337 --> 00:11:04.458
 service there was in that war.
 
 00:11:04.499 --> 00:11:04.698
 I mean,
 
 00:11:04.739 --> 00:11:07.159
 and you do have a really looking at
 
 00:11:07.179 --> 00:11:07.400
 it from,
 
 00:11:07.841 --> 00:11:09.542
 it varies from difference between
 
 00:11:09.581 --> 00:11:11.962
 the different states, of course.
 
 00:11:12.003 --> 00:11:12.643
 Can you talk a little bit
 
 00:11:12.663 --> 00:11:13.224
 about some of the
 
 00:11:13.283 --> 00:11:14.504
 engagements or some of the
 
 00:11:14.725 --> 00:11:15.884
 work that's going on in the
 
 00:11:15.924 --> 00:11:16.645
 Seven Years War?
 
 00:11:17.806 --> 00:11:18.647
 When I did the chapter on
 
 00:11:18.667 --> 00:11:19.846
 the Seven Years War,
 
 00:11:21.701 --> 00:11:22.741
 There has been some work.
 
 00:11:23.542 --> 00:11:24.523
 There had been some work
 
 00:11:24.543 --> 00:11:26.543
 done on different colonies at the time,
 
 00:11:27.423 --> 00:11:27.923
 Connecticut,
 
 00:11:29.465 --> 00:11:32.147
 Massachusetts to a certain extent,
 
 00:11:32.187 --> 00:11:32.846
 some published work.
 
 00:11:32.866 --> 00:11:33.366
 But basically,
 
 00:11:33.748 --> 00:11:35.948
 I had to dig to find
 
 00:11:38.769 --> 00:11:39.971
 evidence of Black soldier
 
 00:11:39.990 --> 00:11:42.052
 service in all the colonies.
 
 00:11:43.852 --> 00:11:44.933
 They did vary, like you said.
 
 00:11:47.095 --> 00:11:48.775
 North and South, they were, by and large,
 
 00:11:48.956 --> 00:11:49.395
 integrated.
 
 00:11:52.335 --> 00:11:53.235
 But there was difference in
 
 00:11:53.274 --> 00:11:54.216
 service north and south.
 
 00:11:56.576 --> 00:11:59.397
 In South Carolina, even before the war,
 
 00:11:59.417 --> 00:12:01.138
 the seventeen forties, I think,
 
 00:12:01.158 --> 00:12:02.437
 was the first instance of them doing it.
 
 00:12:02.457 --> 00:12:03.878
 They actually enlisted slaves.
 
 00:12:03.898 --> 00:12:04.697
 They had slaves in the
 
 00:12:04.717 --> 00:12:06.178
 regiments because they
 
 00:12:06.198 --> 00:12:07.178
 didn't have enough white
 
 00:12:07.219 --> 00:12:09.580
 men to fill the regiments.
 
 00:12:10.659 --> 00:12:11.379
 And it was only the most
 
 00:12:11.419 --> 00:12:12.480
 trustworthy slaves, you know,
 
 00:12:12.500 --> 00:12:13.801
 quote unquote trustworthy slaves.
 
 00:12:14.868 --> 00:12:17.150
 uh but they did have them um
 
 00:12:17.270 --> 00:12:18.471
 and there's evidence of
 
 00:12:18.552 --> 00:12:20.134
 their of black service into
 
 00:12:20.153 --> 00:12:21.134
 the seventeen sixties
 
 00:12:21.215 --> 00:12:22.155
 during the cherokee wars
 
 00:12:22.196 --> 00:12:23.898
 too uh that didn't make it
 
 00:12:23.918 --> 00:12:25.499
 into the book but I've I've
 
 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:26.240
 done an addenda for the
 
 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:26.980
 book and that's going to
 
 00:12:27.020 --> 00:12:27.782
 make it in the addenda
 
 00:12:27.822 --> 00:12:30.484
 eventually when you got
 
 00:12:30.504 --> 00:12:31.264
 further north I think
 
 00:12:31.485 --> 00:12:32.446
 maryland totally planned
 
 00:12:32.927 --> 00:12:34.148
 black banned black soldiers
 
 00:12:34.568 --> 00:12:37.692
 uh virginia um
 
 00:12:38.621 --> 00:12:39.523
 They allowed black soldiers,
 
 00:12:39.562 --> 00:12:40.302
 but they only allowed them
 
 00:12:40.322 --> 00:12:41.323
 in laboring roles and
 
 00:12:41.364 --> 00:12:43.946
 possibly musicians' roles too,
 
 00:12:43.985 --> 00:12:45.907
 but they were basically unarmed roles.
 
 00:12:47.168 --> 00:12:50.289
 And there was black service
 
 00:12:50.330 --> 00:12:52.091
 and Indian service in the
 
 00:12:52.130 --> 00:12:54.393
 Delaware regiments or Delaware companies,
 
 00:12:54.552 --> 00:12:55.614
 which basically at that time,
 
 00:12:57.195 --> 00:12:59.537
 that was considered part of Pennsylvania.
 
 00:12:59.657 --> 00:13:00.496
 They were the lower counties
 
 00:13:00.576 --> 00:13:01.217
 of Pennsylvania.
 
 00:13:02.118 --> 00:13:03.418
 So they did service in Pennsylvania.
 
 00:13:05.030 --> 00:13:06.792
 They did serve in Forbes campaign, I think,
 
 00:13:06.812 --> 00:13:07.692
 in the third battalion of
 
 00:13:07.731 --> 00:13:08.731
 the Pennsylvania Regiment.
 
 00:13:12.873 --> 00:13:16.534
 But as you go further north, New York,
 
 00:13:17.274 --> 00:13:18.534
 Connecticut, Massachusetts,
 
 00:13:21.755 --> 00:13:22.755
 you see that they were
 
 00:13:22.816 --> 00:13:24.777
 thoroughly integrated and
 
 00:13:24.797 --> 00:13:26.697
 they were performing armed
 
 00:13:26.738 --> 00:13:28.077
 roles and performing a lot
 
 00:13:28.097 --> 00:13:29.437
 of different roles in those units.
 
 00:13:29.477 --> 00:13:29.979
 In fact,
 
 00:13:29.999 --> 00:13:32.139
 some Black soldiers went to Havana
 
 00:13:32.158 --> 00:13:33.820
 in seventeen sixty two for
 
 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:34.379
 the siege there.
 
 00:13:35.068 --> 00:13:35.730
 So at that point,
 
 00:13:35.769 --> 00:13:36.410
 there would have been Black
 
 00:13:36.431 --> 00:13:37.572
 soldiers fighting against
 
 00:13:38.413 --> 00:13:41.859
 Black soldiers on the provincial side,
 
 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:43.461
 fighting against Black
 
 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:45.484
 soldiers on the Spanish side.
 
 00:13:47.847 --> 00:13:48.328
 So it's...
 
 00:13:50.554 --> 00:13:50.835
 Again,
 
 00:13:50.914 --> 00:13:53.456
 it's and it's just like the American
 
 00:13:53.495 --> 00:13:53.975
 Revolution.
 
 00:13:55.436 --> 00:13:57.515
 By and large, they were integrated.
 
 00:13:57.556 --> 00:13:58.317
 They were serving in the
 
 00:13:58.356 --> 00:14:01.096
 ranks with white soldiers, you know,
 
 00:14:01.116 --> 00:14:01.897
 just just as in the
 
 00:14:01.917 --> 00:14:02.977
 American Revolution from
 
 00:14:03.638 --> 00:14:04.538
 April nineteen seventeen
 
 00:14:04.557 --> 00:14:05.717
 seventy five all the way to
 
 00:14:06.398 --> 00:14:07.639
 the end of seventeen eighty three.
 
 00:14:07.678 --> 00:14:08.578
 There were black soldiers
 
 00:14:08.818 --> 00:14:10.599
 fighting in the armies of the revolution.
 
 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.720
 And it is particularly in
 
 00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:14.399
 the Continental Army.
 
 00:14:16.746 --> 00:14:18.087
 We're talking with John Rees,
 
 00:14:18.107 --> 00:14:20.207
 who is the author of
 
 00:14:20.227 --> 00:14:21.948
 D'Antreoni's Black Soldiers
 
 00:14:21.989 --> 00:14:24.448
 Serving in North America's Founding Wars,
 
 00:14:24.448 --> 00:14:26.249
 .
 
 00:14:24.489 --> 00:14:29.230
 So D'Antreoni, of course, is the artist,
 
 00:14:30.010 --> 00:14:30.691
 so it's why it's called
 
 00:14:30.711 --> 00:14:33.251
 D'Antreoni's Black Soldiers Serving.
 
 00:14:33.371 --> 00:14:34.251
 But you've done the
 
 00:14:34.272 --> 00:14:35.751
 historical research into
 
 00:14:36.212 --> 00:14:37.113
 who these people were.
 
 00:14:37.975 --> 00:14:39.235
 Well, of course, this book,
 
 00:14:39.655 --> 00:14:40.476
 just like I was asked to
 
 00:14:40.636 --> 00:14:43.038
 write my first book by an editor,
 
 00:14:43.979 --> 00:14:45.320
 Don called me and asked me
 
 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:47.400
 if I would do this book with him.
 
 00:14:47.461 --> 00:14:49.763
 So this was his project.
 
 00:14:49.942 --> 00:14:51.604
 I mean, we shared it,
 
 00:14:51.663 --> 00:14:53.804
 but he's the one who instigated it.
 
 00:14:55.902 --> 00:14:56.543
 And of course, it does.
 
 00:14:57.102 --> 00:14:58.804
 It especially does center around our work.
 
 00:14:58.845 --> 00:14:59.265
 Yeah.
 
 00:14:59.365 --> 00:15:00.366
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:00.647 --> 00:15:01.368
 And he has really done
 
 00:15:01.408 --> 00:15:04.071
 tremendous work and bringing this story,
 
 00:15:04.150 --> 00:15:05.993
 bringing these people to life.
 
 00:15:06.052 --> 00:15:06.592
 Oh, sure.
 
 00:15:06.753 --> 00:15:07.214
 Oh, sure.
 
 00:15:07.254 --> 00:15:07.634
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:07.714 --> 00:15:09.076
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:09.115 --> 00:15:10.037
 Well, see, that's why I mean,
 
 00:15:10.057 --> 00:15:11.859
 this is what what I try to do.
 
 00:15:11.899 --> 00:15:14.481
 And I don't know how successful I am at it,
 
 00:15:14.522 --> 00:15:16.403
 but Marcus Rediker and a
 
 00:15:16.484 --> 00:15:17.625
 lot of other people call it
 
 00:15:17.684 --> 00:15:18.586
 history from the bottom up.
 
 00:15:19.895 --> 00:15:22.398
 And that's what I tried for.
 
 00:15:23.438 --> 00:15:25.340
 Don's work brings life to
 
 00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:27.902
 these people who often weren't seen.
 
 00:15:29.283 --> 00:15:31.085
 And I tried to flesh out
 
 00:15:31.105 --> 00:15:34.707
 their stories in these works,
 
 00:15:34.748 --> 00:15:38.191
 but also all the other work I do too.
 
 00:15:38.230 --> 00:15:38.851
 So I wonder, John,
 
 00:15:38.892 --> 00:15:39.773
 if you can just tell us how
 
 00:15:39.812 --> 00:15:40.793
 you flesh out their stories,
 
 00:15:41.053 --> 00:15:42.274
 where you get the
 
 00:15:42.315 --> 00:15:44.155
 information to be able to
 
 00:15:44.196 --> 00:15:45.076
 tell us these stories.
 
 00:15:48.263 --> 00:15:49.624
 Well, with the American Revolution,
 
 00:15:50.985 --> 00:15:55.749
 a lot of it came from pension records.
 
 00:15:57.870 --> 00:16:00.371
 With the French and Indian Wars,
 
 00:16:00.432 --> 00:16:01.893
 it was a little bit more difficult.
 
 00:16:01.993 --> 00:16:07.456
 I basically wanted to... I
 
 00:16:07.496 --> 00:16:08.817
 had to start from scratch, largely,
 
 00:16:08.937 --> 00:16:09.839
 with the French and Indian War,
 
 00:16:09.859 --> 00:16:10.740
 except for some published
 
 00:16:10.779 --> 00:16:11.480
 articles that were out
 
 00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:13.442
 there and some published dissertations,
 
 00:16:13.481 --> 00:16:13.642
 too.
 
 00:16:16.327 --> 00:16:18.109
 which were hugely helpful.
 
 00:16:20.129 --> 00:16:21.990
 So I basically used the dissertations,
 
 00:16:22.071 --> 00:16:23.172
 used the sources in there.
 
 00:16:23.412 --> 00:16:25.373
 I used the published articles.
 
 00:16:27.394 --> 00:16:30.736
 I had a friend for me in North Carolina,
 
 00:16:31.076 --> 00:16:31.797
 Jason Melius.
 
 00:16:32.298 --> 00:16:33.398
 He did some research for me
 
 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:35.220
 on the Southern soldiers.
 
 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:38.322
 And then I just dug into
 
 00:16:38.381 --> 00:16:39.481
 some of the published
 
 00:16:39.522 --> 00:16:41.783
 records from the New England states.
 
 00:16:42.666 --> 00:16:45.746
 And I dug as much as I can.
 
 00:16:45.826 --> 00:16:46.246
 I mean, I,
 
 00:16:47.307 --> 00:16:49.207
 I basically had to do research
 
 00:16:49.388 --> 00:16:50.427
 while I wrote the articles
 
 00:16:50.528 --> 00:16:51.528
 or wrote the chapters.
 
 00:16:51.849 --> 00:16:52.708
 I was doing research.
 
 00:16:54.208 --> 00:16:55.730
 And then I would stop, you know,
 
 00:16:55.750 --> 00:16:57.129
 stop writing.
 
 00:16:57.789 --> 00:17:00.471
 And then actually I tried to
 
 00:17:00.490 --> 00:17:01.691
 do as much research before I read,
 
 00:17:01.711 --> 00:17:02.251
 before I wrote,
 
 00:17:02.272 --> 00:17:04.432
 but I would continue to do research while,
 
 00:17:04.531 --> 00:17:05.231
 while I was writing.
 
 00:17:05.251 --> 00:17:06.573
 So it was there.
 
 00:17:06.593 --> 00:17:06.673
 Yeah.
 
 00:17:06.692 --> 00:17:09.193
 You never really find out
 
 00:17:09.213 --> 00:17:10.054
 what you don't know until
 
 00:17:10.094 --> 00:17:10.753
 you start writing.
 
 00:17:11.019 --> 00:17:11.740
 Well, that's the thing.
 
 00:17:11.779 --> 00:17:12.119
 Yeah.
 
 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:12.339
 Yeah.
 
 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:14.441
 And it's, it's amazing how much stuff,
 
 00:17:14.461 --> 00:17:16.221
 you know, I,
 
 00:17:16.241 --> 00:17:18.084
 I started my career working
 
 00:17:18.104 --> 00:17:20.484
 with a typewriter, um, and then,
 
 00:17:20.684 --> 00:17:22.787
 then really early PCs and
 
 00:17:22.807 --> 00:17:24.488
 then working at a research library.
 
 00:17:25.087 --> 00:17:26.828
 And now it's amazing how many things,
 
 00:17:26.888 --> 00:17:27.869
 especially when you're, I,
 
 00:17:29.090 --> 00:17:32.712
 I did this in a, in about a year, um,
 
 00:17:32.772 --> 00:17:35.674
 this book and it's amazing
 
 00:17:35.734 --> 00:17:36.996
 how much is online now.
 
 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:40.141
 um yeah I mean I but I also
 
 00:17:40.161 --> 00:17:42.701
 I I took I took my you know
 
 00:17:42.761 --> 00:17:44.604
 we don and I shared shared
 
 00:17:44.624 --> 00:17:45.463
 the advance for the book
 
 00:17:45.984 --> 00:17:46.865
 and I took my initial
 
 00:17:46.904 --> 00:17:48.807
 advance and I bought a lot
 
 00:17:48.826 --> 00:17:51.407
 of books and I continued
 
 00:17:51.448 --> 00:17:53.690
 buying books um so you know
 
 00:17:54.109 --> 00:17:56.832
 uh published works came into this too um
 
 00:17:57.753 --> 00:18:00.215
 And dissertations or
 
 00:18:00.296 --> 00:18:02.178
 articles that I couldn't access,
 
 00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:06.020
 the authors were more than willing,
 
 00:18:06.040 --> 00:18:07.721
 when I contacted them online,
 
 00:18:07.782 --> 00:18:08.963
 they were more than willing
 
 00:18:09.124 --> 00:18:10.884
 to share their work with me.
 
 00:18:10.924 --> 00:18:11.965
 So that was a huge help.
 
 00:18:12.666 --> 00:18:14.367
 And that's all the way
 
 00:18:14.667 --> 00:18:15.388
 through from the French and
 
 00:18:15.469 --> 00:18:16.569
 Indian War all the way to
 
 00:18:16.589 --> 00:18:18.371
 the end of the American Civil War.
 
 00:18:20.012 --> 00:18:20.532
 Probably one of the most
 
 00:18:20.553 --> 00:18:22.275
 fascinating conflicts
 
 00:18:24.877 --> 00:18:25.897
 because I hadn't done really
 
 00:18:25.919 --> 00:18:27.479
 done research on it was the
 
 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:28.359
 war of eighteen twelve.
 
 00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:30.300
 And there is actually one
 
 00:18:30.340 --> 00:18:32.442
 book that's that's on black
 
 00:18:32.461 --> 00:18:33.761
 soldiers in the war of eighteen twelve.
 
 00:18:34.221 --> 00:18:36.462
 Um but it doesn't go as deep as I'd like.
 
 00:18:36.743 --> 00:18:39.224
 Uh so I used that somewhat
 
 00:18:39.265 --> 00:18:40.664
 but not a whole lot and
 
 00:18:40.825 --> 00:18:42.506
 mostly did my own research
 
 00:18:42.586 --> 00:18:44.767
 and and and uh but that
 
 00:18:44.787 --> 00:18:45.528
 that was fascinating
 
 00:18:45.567 --> 00:18:49.730
 because um in the seventeen
 
 00:18:49.769 --> 00:18:52.550
 nineties basically the the the uh
 
 00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:55.079
 the American army banned Blacks again.
 
 00:18:55.619 --> 00:18:56.740
 They banned Black service.
 
 00:18:57.161 --> 00:18:59.421
 In the war of the year,
 
 00:18:59.441 --> 00:19:00.340
 they basically opened up
 
 00:19:00.760 --> 00:19:01.661
 enlistment to free men.
 
 00:19:03.041 --> 00:19:05.061
 So in the war of the year,
 
 00:19:05.582 --> 00:19:07.162
 even though numbers were not that large,
 
 00:19:07.221 --> 00:19:08.982
 but it was an integrated army.
 
 00:19:09.643 --> 00:19:10.363
 But at that point,
 
 00:19:11.303 --> 00:19:12.782
 Southern officers really
 
 00:19:12.843 --> 00:19:15.084
 had a dislike of Black
 
 00:19:15.183 --> 00:19:18.003
 soldiers serving in the American army.
 
 00:19:20.065 --> 00:19:21.744
 And that really comes out because
 
 00:19:23.865 --> 00:19:25.145
 Southern soldiers really came,
 
 00:19:25.205 --> 00:19:28.288
 really began to come to the
 
 00:19:28.308 --> 00:19:29.769
 fore in the American army, you know,
 
 00:19:29.789 --> 00:19:30.790
 assumed a lot of really
 
 00:19:30.810 --> 00:19:31.612
 important positions.
 
 00:19:32.832 --> 00:19:34.012
 And also one of those rising
 
 00:19:34.032 --> 00:19:36.276
 stars of Virginia was Winfield Scott.
 
 00:19:37.896 --> 00:19:42.141
 And eventually, I think it was Calhoun,
 
 00:19:42.161 --> 00:19:44.803
 I think, who was the Secretary of War.
 
 00:19:44.823 --> 00:19:45.604
 I think that's who it was.
 
 00:19:46.204 --> 00:19:48.307
 After the war, he is.
 
 00:19:48.326 --> 00:19:48.426
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:48.767 --> 00:19:50.008
 There's John Armstrong.
 
 00:19:50.028 --> 00:19:51.890
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:51.930 --> 00:19:52.210
 Well, yeah.
 
 00:19:52.230 --> 00:19:52.490
 And see,
 
 00:19:52.530 --> 00:19:53.592
 John Armstrong is interesting
 
 00:19:53.632 --> 00:19:54.813
 because he was a Pennsylvanian.
 
 00:19:54.873 --> 00:19:56.213
 He served in the Revolution.
 
 00:19:56.835 --> 00:19:58.016
 But he was instrumental in...
 
 00:19:59.508 --> 00:20:01.128
 in helping to form the only
 
 00:20:01.328 --> 00:20:03.050
 black battalion that was
 
 00:20:03.270 --> 00:20:04.310
 formed in the American Army,
 
 00:20:04.351 --> 00:20:06.492
 which was the second
 
 00:20:06.512 --> 00:20:07.473
 battalion of the U.S.
 
 00:20:08.653 --> 00:20:09.255
 Infantry Regiment.
 
 00:20:09.494 --> 00:20:12.156
 So he was very instrumental in that.
 
 00:20:12.176 --> 00:20:14.578
 But when Calhoun came to the
 
 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:16.700
 fore in eighteen twenty,
 
 00:20:16.779 --> 00:20:20.442
 he basically banned black
 
 00:20:20.462 --> 00:20:21.903
 service from the army.
 
 00:20:22.243 --> 00:20:23.105
 And that was followed by
 
 00:20:23.144 --> 00:20:24.786
 Winfield Scott's military manual,
 
 00:20:24.826 --> 00:20:25.306
 which also
 
 00:20:27.074 --> 00:20:28.474
 banned Black service in the Army.
 
 00:20:28.654 --> 00:20:29.076
 Interesting.
 
 00:20:29.236 --> 00:20:31.238
 So with Southerners coming to the fore,
 
 00:20:31.417 --> 00:20:32.699
 you can see the changes.
 
 00:20:33.179 --> 00:20:34.200
 But I wonder, John,
 
 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:35.621
 since you mentioned that
 
 00:20:36.122 --> 00:20:37.502
 Pebbles served under
 
 00:20:38.443 --> 00:20:39.765
 Lawrence as well as Lee,
 
 00:20:39.845 --> 00:20:41.946
 who are both Southerners,
 
 00:20:42.287 --> 00:20:43.587
 if this represents a shift
 
 00:20:43.607 --> 00:20:45.108
 in attitudes as opposed to
 
 00:20:46.289 --> 00:20:48.673
 Southerners consistently.
 
 00:20:49.012 --> 00:20:49.792
 It very much does.
 
 00:20:49.894 --> 00:20:50.653
 Yeah, it does.
 
 00:20:51.894 --> 00:20:52.256
 In fact,
 
 00:20:53.242 --> 00:20:54.624
 again uh my cousin matt
 
 00:20:54.663 --> 00:20:57.684
 white um he's done some
 
 00:20:57.724 --> 00:21:00.126
 work on uh on abolition and
 
 00:21:00.646 --> 00:21:05.289
 um and on uh uh oh man uh
 
 00:21:05.309 --> 00:21:07.590
 forest I he was he was an
 
 00:21:07.631 --> 00:21:08.892
 artillery officer officer
 
 00:21:08.912 --> 00:21:09.692
 during the war and he was
 
 00:21:09.912 --> 00:21:12.212
 he was in the in the uh in
 
 00:21:12.232 --> 00:21:13.534
 the um eighteen twenty
 
 00:21:13.554 --> 00:21:14.394
 missouri debates because he
 
 00:21:14.414 --> 00:21:17.036
 was a congressman he was a
 
 00:21:17.056 --> 00:21:18.096
 veteran of the war and he
 
 00:21:18.116 --> 00:21:19.096
 he served alongside black
 
 00:21:19.136 --> 00:21:20.917
 soldiers as as did of course lafayette
 
 00:21:23.210 --> 00:21:25.550
 No, this was a Charles Forrest.
 
 00:21:26.931 --> 00:21:27.892
 He was an artillery officer,
 
 00:21:27.912 --> 00:21:29.813
 very crucial to the Battle of Trenton.
 
 00:21:29.833 --> 00:21:34.193
 Okay, yeah, of course, yeah.
 
 00:21:34.233 --> 00:21:35.914
 But he had to remind the
 
 00:21:35.954 --> 00:21:37.194
 southern congressmen who he
 
 00:21:37.214 --> 00:21:38.375
 was arguing against during
 
 00:21:39.096 --> 00:21:41.217
 the majority race that
 
 00:21:41.336 --> 00:21:43.498
 black soldiers indeed did
 
 00:21:43.778 --> 00:21:45.018
 serve in the Army in the Revolution.
 
 00:21:45.837 --> 00:21:46.338
 And the thing is,
 
 00:21:46.378 --> 00:21:47.598
 most of these guys were young guys,
 
 00:21:47.999 --> 00:21:50.640
 and their fathers –
 
 00:21:50.471 --> 00:21:51.792
 commanded the black soldiers
 
 00:21:51.833 --> 00:21:52.353
 during the war,
 
 00:21:52.393 --> 00:21:53.353
 but they never passed on
 
 00:21:53.393 --> 00:21:57.335
 the information that black soldiers.
 
 00:21:57.375 --> 00:21:57.835
 That's interesting.
 
 00:21:57.855 --> 00:22:00.355
 So there is a real shift between, you know,
 
 00:22:01.155 --> 00:22:03.356
 the revolution and the war
 
 00:22:03.376 --> 00:22:04.038
 of eighteen twelve.
 
 00:22:04.077 --> 00:22:05.157
 And then, of course, beyond that,
 
 00:22:05.678 --> 00:22:07.159
 in the attitude toward black soldiers.
 
 00:22:07.179 --> 00:22:10.720
 I mean, Virginia itself came,
 
 00:22:11.421 --> 00:22:12.141
 I don't know how close,
 
 00:22:12.161 --> 00:22:14.781
 but was almost on a path to
 
 00:22:15.702 --> 00:22:16.563
 abolishing slavery.
 
 00:22:17.669 --> 00:22:18.489
 during the revolution.
 
 00:22:18.828 --> 00:22:19.028
 I mean,
 
 00:22:19.088 --> 00:22:21.269
 Washington's attitudes towards
 
 00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:22.509
 slavery and towards Black
 
 00:22:22.549 --> 00:22:24.810
 soldiers were changed during the war.
 
 00:22:26.611 --> 00:22:27.912
 But unfortunately,
 
 00:22:28.231 --> 00:22:29.912
 we didn't continue on that,
 
 00:22:30.311 --> 00:22:31.393
 at least for the entire country.
 
 00:22:33.032 --> 00:22:34.313
 They did eventually abolish
 
 00:22:34.353 --> 00:22:36.993
 slavery for the most part in the North,
 
 00:22:37.173 --> 00:22:40.214
 or at least set themselves
 
 00:22:40.255 --> 00:22:41.015
 on the path towards that.
 
 00:22:43.156 --> 00:22:44.357
 We're talking with John Rees,
 
 00:22:44.397 --> 00:22:46.179
 who is the author of the
 
 00:22:46.239 --> 00:22:48.160
 text for Don Trione's Black
 
 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:49.280
 Soldiers Serving in North
 
 00:22:49.320 --> 00:22:50.582
 America's Founding Wars,
 
 00:22:51.001 --> 00:22:52.063
 which does actually go from
 
 00:22:52.123 --> 00:22:53.304
 seventeen fifty four until
 
 00:22:53.344 --> 00:22:54.763
 eighteen sixty five.
 
 00:22:55.505 --> 00:22:58.086
 Our real focus is this earlier period when,
 
 00:22:58.646 --> 00:22:59.907
 as you said, a lot is changing.
 
 00:23:00.907 --> 00:23:01.028
 Now,
 
 00:23:01.128 --> 00:23:03.109
 another thing that you do bring up is
 
 00:23:03.130 --> 00:23:04.250
 the difference between
 
 00:23:04.310 --> 00:23:06.432
 black service in the American,
 
 00:23:06.451 --> 00:23:07.553
 the Continental regiments,
 
 00:23:07.653 --> 00:23:09.173
 as opposed to the loyalist
 
 00:23:09.473 --> 00:23:11.134
 or British regiments.
 
 00:23:11.305 --> 00:23:11.826
 British Army.
 
 00:23:11.865 --> 00:23:12.625
 I wonder if you could talk a
 
 00:23:12.645 --> 00:23:14.248
 little bit about what
 
 00:23:14.288 --> 00:23:15.429
 difference there would have been.
 
 00:23:16.170 --> 00:23:16.770
 Well,
 
 00:23:17.291 --> 00:23:18.712
 the war began with Black soldiers
 
 00:23:18.732 --> 00:23:19.834
 serving in Loyalist regiments.
 
 00:23:19.894 --> 00:23:20.255
 In fact,
 
 00:23:22.116 --> 00:23:23.018
 there's information that the
 
 00:23:23.057 --> 00:23:24.138
 Queen's Rangers initially
 
 00:23:24.179 --> 00:23:25.039
 had a Black company.
 
 00:23:26.020 --> 00:23:27.021
 By the time the orders,
 
 00:23:27.462 --> 00:23:29.625
 the house orders came down,
 
 00:23:31.351 --> 00:23:32.551
 banning Black soldiers from
 
 00:23:32.652 --> 00:23:34.292
 serving in Loyalist regiments.
 
 00:23:34.913 --> 00:23:36.473
 And that was in
 
 00:23:37.153 --> 00:23:38.234
 early-seventeen-seventy-six.
 
 00:23:39.955 --> 00:23:41.757
 Most of those men, I think, had died.
 
 00:23:41.876 --> 00:23:43.157
 They weren't in the regiment anymore.
 
 00:23:43.198 --> 00:23:44.057
 But basically,
 
 00:23:44.377 --> 00:23:45.199
 the Loyalist regiments at
 
 00:23:45.219 --> 00:23:47.400
 that point had to discharge
 
 00:23:47.420 --> 00:23:48.059
 Black soldiers.
 
 00:23:50.046 --> 00:23:51.326
 what happened though was
 
 00:23:51.926 --> 00:23:53.967
 those black soldiers uh
 
 00:23:53.987 --> 00:23:56.367
 they either changed to new
 
 00:23:56.428 --> 00:23:57.909
 roles I think I think it
 
 00:23:57.949 --> 00:23:59.229
 seems that they were
 
 00:23:59.249 --> 00:24:00.628
 probably all discharged but
 
 00:24:00.709 --> 00:24:01.930
 eventually they made their
 
 00:24:01.950 --> 00:24:02.970
 way back into service or at
 
 00:24:03.009 --> 00:24:03.990
 least at least some black
 
 00:24:04.009 --> 00:24:04.730
 men made their way back
 
 00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:05.931
 into service as musicians
 
 00:24:05.951 --> 00:24:08.791
 and pioneers and in what
 
 00:24:08.811 --> 00:24:09.791
 you would think of as
 
 00:24:09.932 --> 00:24:11.952
 unarmed roles which you know they're
 
 00:24:12.816 --> 00:24:15.395
 that's not their main purpose is to fight.
 
 00:24:16.196 --> 00:24:18.196
 But there was several times,
 
 00:24:18.656 --> 00:24:19.557
 and one of those instances
 
 00:24:19.576 --> 00:24:21.416
 was a black trumpeter for
 
 00:24:22.657 --> 00:24:23.938
 Simcoe's Rangers at the
 
 00:24:23.958 --> 00:24:26.357
 Battle of Spencer's Ordinary,
 
 00:24:27.198 --> 00:24:28.419
 was cited for bravery.
 
 00:24:29.439 --> 00:24:30.058
 I think he saved an
 
 00:24:30.078 --> 00:24:31.398
 officer's life during that action.
 
 00:24:32.858 --> 00:24:33.799
 And again, he was a trumpeter,
 
 00:24:33.859 --> 00:24:39.400
 but he did have a bladed weapon with him.
 
 00:24:40.961 --> 00:24:41.740
 So by and large,
 
 00:24:43.682 --> 00:24:44.943
 uh, post-seventeen seventy-six,
 
 00:24:46.286 --> 00:24:47.707
 black men were relegated to
 
 00:24:47.807 --> 00:24:49.989
 unarmed roles or unarmed positions or,
 
 00:24:50.009 --> 00:24:52.791
 you know, they, they weren't, they, that,
 
 00:24:52.832 --> 00:24:54.193
 that wasn't their role to,
 
 00:24:54.294 --> 00:24:55.174
 to be fighters.
 
 00:24:55.194 --> 00:24:56.695
 Uh, they were, they were,
 
 00:24:56.895 --> 00:24:57.676
 they were musicians.
 
 00:24:58.076 --> 00:25:00.180
 Um, they were, uh, pioneers.
 
 00:25:00.339 --> 00:25:01.461
 They were laborers.
 
 00:25:02.342 --> 00:25:02.442
 Um,
 
 00:25:04.078 --> 00:25:06.359
 Early on in in seventeen seventy six,
 
 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:07.580
 Henry Clinton was
 
 00:25:07.681 --> 00:25:08.661
 instrumental in founding
 
 00:25:09.261 --> 00:25:10.182
 the Black Pioneers,
 
 00:25:10.221 --> 00:25:12.403
 which was a company of black laborers.
 
 00:25:12.442 --> 00:25:13.604
 But they were given uniforms
 
 00:25:14.924 --> 00:25:16.025
 and they were they served
 
 00:25:16.045 --> 00:25:16.905
 through the entire war.
 
 00:25:16.965 --> 00:25:18.105
 But the thing with those is
 
 00:25:18.145 --> 00:25:19.747
 they were they were the
 
 00:25:19.826 --> 00:25:21.867
 unit was formed from from
 
 00:25:21.968 --> 00:25:23.648
 slaves in North Carolina
 
 00:25:24.910 --> 00:25:25.609
 when the British Army was
 
 00:25:25.670 --> 00:25:26.631
 down on the Cape Fear River.
 
 00:25:26.671 --> 00:25:27.810
 And that's where Clinton was.
 
 00:25:27.830 --> 00:25:28.731
 He was with the with the
 
 00:25:28.751 --> 00:25:30.251
 fleet on the Cape Fear River.
 
 00:25:31.192 --> 00:25:33.173
 And the the document
 
 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.162
 founding that the Black
 
 00:25:37.182 --> 00:25:38.583
 pioneers stated that those
 
 00:25:38.623 --> 00:25:40.104
 men would be enslaved until
 
 00:25:40.183 --> 00:25:42.086
 they were discharged at the
 
 00:25:42.125 --> 00:25:43.126
 end of the war.
 
 00:25:43.186 --> 00:25:44.166
 And then what happens when
 
 00:25:44.186 --> 00:25:44.907
 they're discharged?
 
 00:25:44.928 --> 00:25:46.689
 Do they become free?
 
 00:25:46.709 --> 00:25:47.028
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:48.069 --> 00:25:49.891
 But that's one of the few instances.
 
 00:25:50.971 --> 00:25:51.271
 In fact,
 
 00:25:51.311 --> 00:25:52.532
 I think it's the only instance I
 
 00:25:52.593 --> 00:25:54.894
 know of that enslaved
 
 00:25:54.934 --> 00:25:56.556
 soldiers fought on the British side.
 
 00:25:58.758 --> 00:26:00.739
 Because by and large, they were all
 
 00:26:01.594 --> 00:26:02.674
 the rest of the sort of the
 
 00:26:02.835 --> 00:26:04.096
 of the men who served the
 
 00:26:04.115 --> 00:26:06.377
 british side at least in
 
 00:26:06.397 --> 00:26:07.637
 the regiments most of them
 
 00:26:07.679 --> 00:26:09.019
 were free I mean I think
 
 00:26:09.038 --> 00:26:09.680
 there were probably a few
 
 00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:10.881
 instances where where uh
 
 00:26:10.901 --> 00:26:13.282
 all officer servants served
 
 00:26:13.303 --> 00:26:14.943
 under arms right and and
 
 00:26:14.963 --> 00:26:16.765
 still you know uh remained
 
 00:26:16.805 --> 00:26:19.487
 as slaves and then most
 
 00:26:19.527 --> 00:26:20.488
 interesting with the with
 
 00:26:20.508 --> 00:26:21.808
 the loyal score is that uh
 
 00:26:22.978 --> 00:26:23.699
 know there were there were a
 
 00:26:23.719 --> 00:26:25.480
 few black soldiers in in uh
 
 00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:27.000
 armed black soldiers in
 
 00:26:27.040 --> 00:26:29.122
 butler's rangers um and
 
 00:26:29.222 --> 00:26:29.923
 then later in the war
 
 00:26:30.002 --> 00:26:32.065
 december there was a
 
 00:26:32.125 --> 00:26:34.226
 company uh a large company
 
 00:26:34.425 --> 00:26:37.327
 of black dragoons formed in
 
 00:26:37.429 --> 00:26:39.049
 south carolina of freed
 
 00:26:39.089 --> 00:26:40.191
 slaves and they received
 
 00:26:40.230 --> 00:26:41.411
 training along along with
 
 00:26:41.571 --> 00:26:43.472
 all the other white cavalry
 
 00:26:43.573 --> 00:26:44.534
 cavalry units in the
 
 00:26:44.574 --> 00:26:46.214
 british army they received
 
 00:26:46.255 --> 00:26:48.616
 training um in the spring
 
 00:26:48.636 --> 00:26:50.218
 of seventeen seventeen eighty two
 
 00:26:51.009 --> 00:26:53.790
 So the Black Dragoons
 
 00:26:53.971 --> 00:26:55.510
 actually ended up being very,
 
 00:26:55.550 --> 00:26:56.351
 very good cavalrymen.
 
 00:26:56.391 --> 00:26:57.290
 They weren't a large unit,
 
 00:26:57.510 --> 00:26:58.771
 but they are mentioned in
 
 00:26:59.071 --> 00:27:02.071
 the various journals as
 
 00:27:02.311 --> 00:27:03.271
 doing really good work.
 
 00:27:04.133 --> 00:27:08.432
 But also the government of South Carolina,
 
 00:27:09.534 --> 00:27:10.334
 as it then stood,
 
 00:27:11.314 --> 00:27:12.534
 the Whig government of
 
 00:27:12.574 --> 00:27:14.134
 South Carolina basically
 
 00:27:14.194 --> 00:27:15.394
 stated that if they were captured,
 
 00:27:15.414 --> 00:27:15.954
 they would be hung.
 
 00:27:16.556 --> 00:27:18.457
 Oh my goodness.
 
 00:27:18.497 --> 00:27:18.616
 Yeah,
 
 00:27:18.636 --> 00:27:19.757
 so they were literally fighting for
 
 00:27:19.777 --> 00:27:20.196
 their lives.
 
 00:27:20.237 --> 00:27:21.657
 The most interesting, well, not the most,
 
 00:27:21.738 --> 00:27:24.278
 but to add the icing on the
 
 00:27:24.318 --> 00:27:26.220
 cake was the remnants of
 
 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:27.700
 the Black Dragoons and the
 
 00:27:27.740 --> 00:27:29.361
 remnants of the Southern
 
 00:27:29.401 --> 00:27:31.842
 Company of the Black Pioneers,
 
 00:27:31.862 --> 00:27:32.862
 because there was a company
 
 00:27:32.902 --> 00:27:33.721
 formed in the South,
 
 00:27:33.741 --> 00:27:35.462
 that stayed in the South.
 
 00:27:36.282 --> 00:27:38.523
 They eventually formed the Carolina Corps.
 
 00:27:40.144 --> 00:27:41.244
 I think they went to Grenada,
 
 00:27:41.285 --> 00:27:41.924
 I'm not sure.
 
 00:27:42.826 --> 00:27:44.226
 But they were an armed,
 
 00:27:44.767 --> 00:27:46.007
 they were an armed Loyalist Corps
 
 00:27:46.673 --> 00:27:48.453
 in the West Indies under the
 
 00:27:48.513 --> 00:27:49.115
 British government.
 
 00:27:49.174 --> 00:27:51.455
 And then the remnants of the
 
 00:27:51.496 --> 00:27:53.156
 Carolina Corps eventually became,
 
 00:27:53.717 --> 00:27:55.278
 was rolled into the First
 
 00:27:55.337 --> 00:27:57.319
 West India Regiment in
 
 00:27:57.420 --> 00:27:59.601
 seventeen ninety five,
 
 00:27:59.701 --> 00:28:00.602
 seventeen ninety seven.
 
 00:28:00.662 --> 00:28:03.943
 So they so they continued their, you know,
 
 00:28:03.983 --> 00:28:06.105
 their legacy when the West India,
 
 00:28:06.464 --> 00:28:07.205
 the Black West Indian
 
 00:28:07.226 --> 00:28:08.446
 regiments were formed in
 
 00:28:08.567 --> 00:28:09.626
 the late seventeen nineties.
 
 00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:12.211
 Interesting.
 
 00:28:12.230 --> 00:28:12.310
 Yeah,
 
 00:28:12.330 --> 00:28:14.653
 and you also talk about the Spanish
 
 00:28:15.174 --> 00:28:17.458
 West Indies and the Haitian
 
 00:28:17.678 --> 00:28:19.140
 soldiers who served both
 
 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:20.442
 under the Spanish and under
 
 00:28:20.481 --> 00:28:21.743
 the French in this.
 
 00:28:21.824 --> 00:28:21.983
 I mean,
 
 00:28:22.003 --> 00:28:23.425
 it's another really interesting
 
 00:28:23.445 --> 00:28:24.047
 piece of it.
 
 00:28:29.070 --> 00:28:30.451
 I got no direction for the narrative.
 
 00:28:30.991 --> 00:28:32.652
 Don was very specific with the captions.
 
 00:28:32.692 --> 00:28:33.872
 He said he wanted nine
 
 00:28:33.892 --> 00:28:34.653
 hundred word captions,
 
 00:28:35.272 --> 00:28:36.613
 which is a very large caption,
 
 00:28:37.673 --> 00:28:39.314
 but it's great because it
 
 00:28:39.354 --> 00:28:41.294
 gave me the ability to tell
 
 00:28:41.314 --> 00:28:42.994
 a short story in those captions.
 
 00:28:43.214 --> 00:28:44.914
 But with the narrative,
 
 00:28:47.096 --> 00:28:47.875
 I just wrote large.
 
 00:28:48.955 --> 00:28:49.436
 When I was writing,
 
 00:28:49.477 --> 00:28:50.076
 I wrote large and
 
 00:28:50.116 --> 00:28:51.936
 eventually I called the
 
 00:28:51.997 --> 00:28:53.738
 editor or I talked to the
 
 00:28:53.758 --> 00:28:54.258
 editor and said,
 
 00:28:55.134 --> 00:28:55.934
 this is what I have.
 
 00:28:55.974 --> 00:28:56.734
 And it's going to, you know,
 
 00:28:57.336 --> 00:28:58.096
 if you want to take a look
 
 00:28:58.135 --> 00:28:58.997
 at it and she said, well, just,
 
 00:28:59.116 --> 00:29:00.938
 just keep on writing as you are.
 
 00:29:01.459 --> 00:29:02.680
 Well, eventually I had to,
 
 00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:03.700
 had to half this half the
 
 00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:04.421
 size of the book.
 
 00:29:04.921 --> 00:29:06.923
 Well, I had, um,
 
 00:29:06.942 --> 00:29:07.883
 it was luckily I have a lot of,
 
 00:29:09.203 --> 00:29:10.025
 I have a lot of experience
 
 00:29:10.045 --> 00:29:12.767
 with that kind of work, but also, uh, um,
 
 00:29:15.315 --> 00:29:17.215
 A lot of the work was these
 
 00:29:17.296 --> 00:29:18.717
 large chapters on the
 
 00:29:18.757 --> 00:29:20.738
 French Black Regiment,
 
 00:29:21.157 --> 00:29:22.038
 the Spanish Black Regiment,
 
 00:29:22.058 --> 00:29:23.519
 or the Cuban Black Regiment,
 
 00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:25.941
 and also the Rhode Island
 
 00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:30.042
 Regiment and the Lord
 
 00:29:30.063 --> 00:29:31.383
 Dunmore's Ethiopian Regiment.
 
 00:29:33.104 --> 00:29:33.805
 So basically,
 
 00:29:34.265 --> 00:29:36.445
 I cut those out entirely and
 
 00:29:36.685 --> 00:29:40.067
 let the... It's covered in captions.
 
 00:29:40.387 --> 00:29:42.308
 So I just let those stand.
 
 00:29:42.328 --> 00:29:43.349
 But the stories...
 
 00:29:44.436 --> 00:29:46.878
 The stories of the French and Cuban,
 
 00:29:47.818 --> 00:29:51.020
 Spanish-Cuban Black Corps
 
 00:29:51.481 --> 00:29:52.501
 are fascinating.
 
 00:29:57.605 --> 00:30:01.107
 And even the French chasseur,
 
 00:30:02.808 --> 00:30:05.089
 volunteer chasseur de Saint-Domingue,
 
 00:30:07.653 --> 00:30:08.913
 That story actually goes
 
 00:30:08.933 --> 00:30:09.934
 back into the Seven Years'
 
 00:30:09.994 --> 00:30:13.156
 War and continues, of course,
 
 00:30:13.196 --> 00:30:14.377
 up to the French Revolution,
 
 00:30:14.498 --> 00:30:17.119
 where at least some of the
 
 00:30:17.140 --> 00:30:17.820
 participants in that
 
 00:30:17.840 --> 00:30:19.561
 regiment took part in the revolutions.
 
 00:30:21.448 --> 00:30:22.848
 But I think I find the most
 
 00:30:22.888 --> 00:30:25.490
 fascinating story is the black battalions,
 
 00:30:26.151 --> 00:30:27.731
 the black Cuban battalions.
 
 00:30:28.311 --> 00:30:30.574
 Because first of all, they were, well,
 
 00:30:30.594 --> 00:30:31.673
 first of all, the chasseurs,
 
 00:30:31.713 --> 00:30:32.275
 the French chefs,
 
 00:30:32.575 --> 00:30:33.214
 the Haitian or
 
 00:30:33.255 --> 00:30:34.336
 Saint-Domingue chasseurs
 
 00:30:34.355 --> 00:30:36.616
 were segregated by companies.
 
 00:30:36.656 --> 00:30:37.877
 So you had a mulatto company
 
 00:30:38.057 --> 00:30:38.919
 and a black company.
 
 00:30:39.398 --> 00:30:40.720
 And so the mulattos and the
 
 00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:41.740
 blacks didn't serve
 
 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:42.500
 together in companies.
 
 00:30:43.080 --> 00:30:46.222
 Well, in the Cuban black battalions,
 
 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:48.020
 served together there was
 
 00:30:48.060 --> 00:30:48.821
 there were mulatto
 
 00:30:48.842 --> 00:30:49.622
 battalions and there were
 
 00:30:49.642 --> 00:30:51.063
 black battalions so they
 
 00:30:51.083 --> 00:30:51.703
 were segregated by
 
 00:30:51.743 --> 00:30:53.365
 battalions because there's
 
 00:30:53.444 --> 00:30:55.346
 always even to this day in
 
 00:30:55.866 --> 00:30:56.988
 in majority black countries
 
 00:30:57.028 --> 00:30:58.469
 and I'm sure in america too
 
 00:30:59.029 --> 00:31:00.351
 there is colorism between
 
 00:31:00.451 --> 00:31:01.751
 light skin blacks and and
 
 00:31:01.791 --> 00:31:03.292
 dark skin blacks so but
 
 00:31:03.313 --> 00:31:04.173
 it's fascinating to see
 
 00:31:04.193 --> 00:31:06.134
 that back then yeah and
 
 00:31:06.214 --> 00:31:07.355
 also to see they their
 
 00:31:07.536 --> 00:31:09.278
 their service started as as
 
 00:31:09.478 --> 00:31:10.218
 as just companies with
 
 00:31:10.258 --> 00:31:12.480
 blacks in the uh well
 
 00:31:12.500 --> 00:31:14.622
 before the before the
 
 00:31:14.721 --> 00:31:16.143
 seventeen sixty two havana siege
 
 00:31:16.686 --> 00:31:17.928
 But that's where they came to the fore.
 
 00:31:18.347 --> 00:31:21.171
 But they also had volunteer
 
 00:31:21.230 --> 00:31:22.852
 enslaved men forming
 
 00:31:22.892 --> 00:31:25.394
 companies with the
 
 00:31:25.534 --> 00:31:26.375
 permission of their owners
 
 00:31:26.815 --> 00:31:28.415
 and performing great feats
 
 00:31:28.457 --> 00:31:29.196
 of valor during the
 
 00:31:29.237 --> 00:31:30.718
 seventeen sixty two siege,
 
 00:31:30.897 --> 00:31:31.798
 so much so that some of
 
 00:31:31.818 --> 00:31:33.319
 them were freed and put
 
 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:34.340
 into the free black
 
 00:31:34.361 --> 00:31:36.442
 battalions or free water battalions.
 
 00:31:37.364 --> 00:31:37.903
 But then, you know,
 
 00:31:37.943 --> 00:31:38.964
 then it goes on through to
 
 00:31:38.984 --> 00:31:41.267
 the to the American
 
 00:31:41.287 --> 00:31:42.367
 Revolution and service in
 
 00:31:42.387 --> 00:31:44.589
 the in New Orleans,
 
 00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:45.830
 along the Mississippi and then
 
 00:31:47.397 --> 00:31:48.719
 and then in Spanish Florida,
 
 00:31:48.778 --> 00:31:50.500
 or in British Florida.
 
 00:31:52.101 --> 00:31:53.040
 But then it goes back into
 
 00:31:53.060 --> 00:31:54.582
 the nineteenth century
 
 00:31:54.602 --> 00:31:56.502
 where they start to suffer
 
 00:31:56.563 --> 00:31:59.825
 from racism from the whites,
 
 00:32:00.404 --> 00:32:04.528
 from the Cuban whites to Spanish whites.
 
 00:32:04.548 --> 00:32:05.528
 So yeah,
 
 00:32:05.749 --> 00:32:07.368
 both of those stories are fascinating.
 
 00:32:09.415 --> 00:32:10.718
 We're talking with John Rees,
 
 00:32:10.758 --> 00:32:12.459
 who is the author of Don
 
 00:32:12.499 --> 00:32:13.800
 Trione's Black Soldiers
 
 00:32:13.840 --> 00:32:15.942
 Serving in North America's Founding Wars,
 
 00:32:16.784 --> 00:32:18.204
 as well as They Were Good
 
 00:32:18.265 --> 00:32:19.286
 Soldiers on African
 
 00:32:19.326 --> 00:32:20.346
 Americans Serving in the
 
 00:32:20.406 --> 00:32:21.327
 Continental Army.
 
 00:32:22.068 --> 00:32:23.410
 And a couple of things.
 
 00:32:23.710 --> 00:32:23.809
 One,
 
 00:32:24.010 --> 00:32:26.573
 you mentioned that Pebbles was a
 
 00:32:26.613 --> 00:32:27.894
 matross and that a lot of
 
 00:32:27.913 --> 00:32:30.416
 the British were the pioneers and so on.
 
 00:32:30.436 --> 00:32:31.238
 So I'm wondering if we could
 
 00:32:31.258 --> 00:32:32.378
 talk a little bit about
 
 00:32:32.990 --> 00:32:33.230
 you know,
 
 00:32:33.269 --> 00:32:35.611
 fighting roles versus service roles,
 
 00:32:36.070 --> 00:32:37.632
 as well as what these guys are paid.
 
 00:32:37.692 --> 00:32:39.311
 Are they paid the same as white soldiers,
 
 00:32:39.392 --> 00:32:41.012
 or are there some slave
 
 00:32:41.053 --> 00:32:42.753
 people paid at all for their service?
 
 00:32:43.153 --> 00:32:45.615
 Well, the Black pioneers,
 
 00:32:46.174 --> 00:32:46.974
 the Northern contingent of
 
 00:32:46.994 --> 00:32:48.076
 Black pioneers who
 
 00:32:48.276 --> 00:32:50.076
 basically were slaves their
 
 00:32:50.096 --> 00:32:52.257
 entire military service, they were paid.
 
 00:32:53.877 --> 00:32:54.097
 Now,
 
 00:32:57.199 --> 00:32:58.500
 If you compare it to the Continental Army,
 
 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:00.701
 sometimes the masters that
 
 00:33:00.721 --> 00:33:01.621
 enlisted their slaves,
 
 00:33:01.681 --> 00:33:02.981
 sometimes they took all the wages,
 
 00:33:03.382 --> 00:33:04.701
 sometimes half the wages
 
 00:33:04.741 --> 00:33:08.223
 and then allowed the slaves to keep half.
 
 00:33:08.344 --> 00:33:09.304
 And in that way,
 
 00:33:10.025 --> 00:33:10.785
 some of the men were able
 
 00:33:10.825 --> 00:33:12.306
 to buy their own freedom
 
 00:33:13.566 --> 00:33:16.208
 even before the abolition
 
 00:33:16.228 --> 00:33:18.568
 of slavery in the North.
 
 00:33:21.349 --> 00:33:22.170
 But by and large,
 
 00:33:23.090 --> 00:33:25.551
 unless they were enslaved by an officer,
 
 00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:27.901
 like a British or Loyalist officer,
 
 00:33:28.961 --> 00:33:29.821
 they received pay.
 
 00:33:29.842 --> 00:33:30.482
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:33:30.502 --> 00:33:30.603
 Okay.
 
 00:33:34.425 --> 00:33:35.987
 Another thing that you mentioned, I mean,
 
 00:33:36.106 --> 00:33:37.007
 in your first book,
 
 00:33:37.047 --> 00:33:38.708
 you do talk more about the
 
 00:33:38.728 --> 00:33:41.009
 women who accompanied the armies.
 
 00:33:41.049 --> 00:33:41.851
 And you have a couple of
 
 00:33:41.911 --> 00:33:44.031
 stories of Hannah Till and Judith Lyons.
 
 00:33:44.071 --> 00:33:45.532
 I mean, you have interesting stories.
 
 00:33:45.553 --> 00:33:48.174
 So what were the women doing
 
 00:33:48.255 --> 00:33:50.175
 and what kind of women were
 
 00:33:50.215 --> 00:33:52.137
 involved in following the
 
 00:33:52.178 --> 00:33:52.897
 Continental Army?
 
 00:33:52.938 --> 00:33:53.798
 What were their roles?
 
 00:33:53.858 --> 00:33:55.539
 Can you tell us a little bit about
 
 00:33:57.810 --> 00:33:59.292
 some of these individuals?
 
 00:33:59.313 --> 00:34:00.393
 Well, armies attract followers.
 
 00:34:02.234 --> 00:34:03.375
 They attract both male and
 
 00:34:03.415 --> 00:34:04.215
 female followers.
 
 00:34:05.938 --> 00:34:07.077
 Both males and females are
 
 00:34:07.097 --> 00:34:08.920
 there to maybe make money off the army,
 
 00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:10.721
 sometimes as settlers,
 
 00:34:10.780 --> 00:34:11.661
 sometimes in other ways.
 
 00:34:14.103 --> 00:34:14.623
 The armies,
 
 00:34:15.204 --> 00:34:16.425
 and especially George Washington,
 
 00:34:18.367 --> 00:34:19.467
 he wanted to make sure that
 
 00:34:21.128 --> 00:34:21.909
 women with the army
 
 00:34:23.072 --> 00:34:23.871
 did something to earn their
 
 00:34:23.911 --> 00:34:28.635
 keep and also were upstanding people.
 
 00:34:28.815 --> 00:34:30.996
 And so in the beginning,
 
 00:34:31.717 --> 00:34:32.297
 and even all the way
 
 00:34:32.336 --> 00:34:33.297
 through the seventeen eighty three,
 
 00:34:33.317 --> 00:34:33.898
 there were problems.
 
 00:34:34.217 --> 00:34:35.338
 But by and large,
 
 00:34:35.358 --> 00:34:36.179
 the women who followed the
 
 00:34:36.259 --> 00:34:39.481
 army were were respectable and respected.
 
 00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.041
 And if they weren't, they were eventually
 
 00:34:42.612 --> 00:34:43.713
 not with the Army anymore.
 
 00:34:45.873 --> 00:34:47.795
 Some women joined the Army
 
 00:34:48.076 --> 00:34:48.856
 for short periods,
 
 00:34:48.876 --> 00:34:52.778
 and maybe some women even came and went.
 
 00:34:53.798 --> 00:34:56.161
 Some women stayed for long periods of time,
 
 00:34:56.681 --> 00:35:01.784
 like the white woman, Maria Cronkite,
 
 00:35:01.903 --> 00:35:03.644
 who was with the New York Regiment.
 
 00:35:03.846 --> 00:35:04.806
 And she followed her husband
 
 00:35:05.347 --> 00:35:06.487
 for most of the war.
 
 00:35:09.510 --> 00:35:10.391
 But Hannah Till,
 
 00:35:12.472 --> 00:35:14.233
 she began the wars as a slave.
 
 00:35:14.273 --> 00:35:16.014
 She ended as a free woman.
 
 00:35:16.034 --> 00:35:19.635
 I'm not sure exactly when
 
 00:35:19.655 --> 00:35:20.795
 she gained her freedom,
 
 00:35:21.556 --> 00:35:23.157
 but her master basically
 
 00:35:23.496 --> 00:35:25.097
 hired her to Washington for
 
 00:35:25.117 --> 00:35:26.038
 his military household.
 
 00:35:26.518 --> 00:35:29.980
 And she was a cook with him at least, well,
 
 00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:31.199
 I think it's from seventeen
 
 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.041
 seventy six almost to the end of the war.
 
 00:35:34.942 --> 00:35:35.722
 Her husband, Isaac,
 
 00:35:35.802 --> 00:35:37.242
 also was with Washington's
 
 00:35:37.382 --> 00:35:38.123
 military household.
 
 00:35:38.655 --> 00:35:40.175
 And Isaac actually may have
 
 00:35:40.195 --> 00:35:41.115
 been at the Battle of Trenton.
 
 00:35:42.896 --> 00:35:45.637
 Hannah was actually on the
 
 00:35:45.898 --> 00:35:47.059
 Pennsylvania side of the
 
 00:35:47.139 --> 00:35:48.159
 crossing to Delaware,
 
 00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:50.900
 basically with any baggage
 
 00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:52.021
 that was there and
 
 00:35:52.061 --> 00:35:52.701
 basically waiting for
 
 00:35:52.740 --> 00:35:53.561
 Washington to come back.
 
 00:35:55.012 --> 00:35:55.873
 probably had a cooked meal
 
 00:35:55.893 --> 00:35:57.534
 for him when he finally came back.
 
 00:35:58.655 --> 00:35:59.697
 But she went on to,
 
 00:36:00.336 --> 00:36:01.277
 she was at Valley Forge.
 
 00:36:01.398 --> 00:36:04.721
 She actually had a son at Valley Forge,
 
 00:36:04.740 --> 00:36:05.521
 gave birth to a son at
 
 00:36:05.561 --> 00:36:07.543
 Valley Forge who was,
 
 00:36:08.983 --> 00:36:11.065
 he was baptized in a church
 
 00:36:11.144 --> 00:36:13.786
 in Philadelphia the year after.
 
 00:36:15.789 --> 00:36:17.889
 So yeah, she saw a lot of amazing service.
 
 00:36:20.431 --> 00:36:21.373
 Judith Lyons, I've,
 
 00:36:23.516 --> 00:36:23.976
 I mean,
 
 00:36:24.235 --> 00:36:25.577
 I wrote an entire article on Judith
 
 00:36:25.597 --> 00:36:28.938
 Lines to cover basically her whole life.
 
 00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:30.340
 But she's fascinating
 
 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.461
 because when she met her husband,
 
 00:36:33.501 --> 00:36:35.342
 John Lines, she had already been married.
 
 00:36:35.483 --> 00:36:36.983
 Her husband had passed away.
 
 00:36:37.503 --> 00:36:38.304
 He may have passed away
 
 00:36:38.364 --> 00:36:39.666
 actually in militia service
 
 00:36:39.706 --> 00:36:40.246
 early in the war.
 
 00:36:40.266 --> 00:36:41.746
 We don't know that for sure.
 
 00:36:41.806 --> 00:36:42.266
 But at that point,
 
 00:36:42.327 --> 00:36:43.568
 I think she already had three children.
 
 00:36:44.858 --> 00:36:45.478
 when she married.
 
 00:36:46.338 --> 00:36:47.759
 So she was left at home
 
 00:36:47.918 --> 00:36:49.039
 taking care of the farm,
 
 00:36:50.619 --> 00:36:51.599
 whatever holding they had.
 
 00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:53.940
 They did have at least one
 
 00:36:53.981 --> 00:36:54.900
 cow or a couple of cows.
 
 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:56.961
 So she had to care for that on her own,
 
 00:36:58.422 --> 00:36:59.402
 possibly with the help of
 
 00:36:59.523 --> 00:37:01.222
 maybe family or maybe some neighbors,
 
 00:37:01.262 --> 00:37:02.143
 but we just don't know.
 
 00:37:03.963 --> 00:37:05.804
 But her husband would write
 
 00:37:05.824 --> 00:37:06.704
 her letters from the army.
 
 00:37:07.545 --> 00:37:09.246
 And at one point he asked her to come.
 
 00:37:09.326 --> 00:37:10.686
 So in seventeen eighty two,
 
 00:37:11.306 --> 00:37:12.166
 she was with the army.
 
 00:37:13.202 --> 00:37:14.724
 probably from May or June
 
 00:37:14.764 --> 00:37:16.125
 until September or so.
 
 00:37:16.144 --> 00:37:17.005
 But during that time,
 
 00:37:18.646 --> 00:37:20.047
 she actually got smallpox too.
 
 00:37:20.088 --> 00:37:21.068
 Oh, wow.
 
 00:37:21.168 --> 00:37:21.869
 Which, you know,
 
 00:37:22.048 --> 00:37:23.570
 if anybody's familiar with smallpox, it's,
 
 00:37:24.331 --> 00:37:25.532
 it's a horribly defeat,
 
 00:37:25.572 --> 00:37:26.452
 disfiguring disease.
 
 00:37:26.512 --> 00:37:28.934
 And it's a very likely deadly disease too.
 
 00:37:30.715 --> 00:37:31.275
 The soldiers,
 
 00:37:32.336 --> 00:37:33.938
 soldiers probably were not inoculated,
 
 00:37:33.958 --> 00:37:34.759
 but by and large,
 
 00:37:34.878 --> 00:37:35.679
 Washington tried to
 
 00:37:35.798 --> 00:37:36.900
 inoculate all the soldiers.
 
 00:37:39.081 --> 00:37:39.302
 But
 
 00:37:40.344 --> 00:37:41.005
 I don't know if she could
 
 00:37:41.025 --> 00:37:41.766
 have been inoculated and
 
 00:37:41.786 --> 00:37:44.666
 still got smallpox, but she did have it.
 
 00:37:44.827 --> 00:37:46.007
 We just don't know about that.
 
 00:37:47.809 --> 00:37:49.369
 And then she testified later,
 
 00:37:49.389 --> 00:37:50.750
 and I haven't been able to corroborate it,
 
 00:37:50.789 --> 00:37:51.990
 but she testified later in
 
 00:37:52.010 --> 00:37:53.851
 the pension that her one
 
 00:37:53.891 --> 00:37:55.992
 son fought at the Battle of
 
 00:37:56.213 --> 00:37:58.074
 Chippewa Farms and was
 
 00:37:58.114 --> 00:37:59.534
 wounded and died of his wounds.
 
 00:38:00.835 --> 00:38:01.635
 But I haven't been able to
 
 00:38:01.655 --> 00:38:03.856
 find his name in any of the
 
 00:38:03.896 --> 00:38:04.958
 eighteen twelve materials.
 
 00:38:07.338 --> 00:38:09.018
 He either changed his name or he was,
 
 00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:11.380
 you know.
 
 00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:13.139
 So there was possibly a
 
 00:38:13.179 --> 00:38:13.920
 timeline all the way
 
 00:38:13.940 --> 00:38:15.380
 through from the revolution, you know,
 
 00:38:15.541 --> 00:38:16.581
 up to the war of eighteen twelve.
 
 00:38:16.601 --> 00:38:18.362
 It's very interesting.
 
 00:38:18.681 --> 00:38:20.003
 Did you find any other I mean,
 
 00:38:20.143 --> 00:38:22.344
 your book does go up to the Civil War.
 
 00:38:22.384 --> 00:38:23.224
 I wonder if you find any
 
 00:38:23.284 --> 00:38:25.005
 other continuity like that,
 
 00:38:25.045 --> 00:38:25.824
 if you're able to.
 
 00:38:26.445 --> 00:38:26.664
 Well,
 
 00:38:27.266 --> 00:38:30.106
 I wanted to I wanted to try to to
 
 00:38:30.726 --> 00:38:33.108
 deal with women in the army, too, in in
 
 00:38:34.005 --> 00:38:34.907
 um in that book in the
 
 00:38:34.967 --> 00:38:36.469
 second book but there just
 
 00:38:36.509 --> 00:38:38.391
 wasn't room yeah um so I
 
 00:38:38.452 --> 00:38:39.373
 really didn't delve into it
 
 00:38:39.393 --> 00:38:41.114
 uh there there are I mean
 
 00:38:41.394 --> 00:38:42.335
 we know in the civil war
 
 00:38:42.356 --> 00:38:43.036
 that there were that there
 
 00:38:43.056 --> 00:38:45.500
 were black women who um who
 
 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:46.280
 followed the armies for a
 
 00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:47.041
 lot of different reasons
 
 00:38:47.081 --> 00:38:49.144
 some were nurses uh some
 
 00:38:49.164 --> 00:38:50.226
 were teachers and they
 
 00:38:50.266 --> 00:38:51.027
 ended up in the south
 
 00:38:51.126 --> 00:38:52.108
 during the war to you know
 
 00:38:52.148 --> 00:38:53.349
 teaching uh teaching children
 
 00:38:55.050 --> 00:38:56.951
 And I'm sure they're, actually,
 
 00:38:56.971 --> 00:38:58.132
 I think there might
 
 00:38:58.172 --> 00:38:59.652
 actually be a photograph of
 
 00:39:00.192 --> 00:39:01.313
 a black woman in camp.
 
 00:39:02.012 --> 00:39:06.795
 I'm not sure of the date, though.
 
 00:39:07.414 --> 00:39:08.775
 But it's inevitable,
 
 00:39:08.815 --> 00:39:11.255
 because whenever you get, well,
 
 00:39:11.315 --> 00:39:12.137
 in the Civil War, of course,
 
 00:39:13.117 --> 00:39:14.878
 the regiments were segregated.
 
 00:39:14.938 --> 00:39:18.619
 But whenever you get men on campaign in
 
 00:39:20.181 --> 00:39:20.362
 You know,
 
 00:39:20.402 --> 00:39:21.643
 from basically since time
 
 00:39:21.684 --> 00:39:25.126
 immemorial and then even into the,
 
 00:39:25.447 --> 00:39:25.686
 you know,
 
 00:39:25.748 --> 00:39:26.909
 into the late nineteenth century.
 
 00:39:27.889 --> 00:39:29.291
 And you also see it into the
 
 00:39:29.311 --> 00:39:30.592
 twentieth century to a certain extent,
 
 00:39:30.612 --> 00:39:31.813
 just not the same numbers.
 
 00:39:31.853 --> 00:39:36.217
 But you always have their wives or,
 
 00:39:36.398 --> 00:39:36.577
 you know,
 
 00:39:36.597 --> 00:39:38.019
 or their loved ones following
 
 00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:39.380
 them in the military.
 
 00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:40.141
 Yeah.
 
 00:39:41.094 --> 00:39:41.514
 Interesting.
 
 00:39:42.155 --> 00:39:43.436
 Jonathan does remind us that
 
 00:39:43.456 --> 00:39:44.775
 we know of at least four
 
 00:39:44.896 --> 00:39:45.916
 Black veterans of the
 
 00:39:45.936 --> 00:39:46.876
 Revolution whose
 
 00:39:46.896 --> 00:39:47.817
 descendants that are in the
 
 00:39:47.836 --> 00:39:49.297
 Massachusetts fifty fourth
 
 00:39:49.376 --> 00:39:50.277
 during the war.
 
 00:39:50.297 --> 00:39:53.139
 So we have that also that
 
 00:39:53.179 --> 00:39:54.278
 tradition of service.
 
 00:39:54.518 --> 00:39:54.818
 Yes.
 
 00:39:55.139 --> 00:39:55.358
 Yes.
 
 00:39:55.458 --> 00:39:55.619
 Yeah.
 
 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:56.039
 And actually,
 
 00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:58.159
 I in my in the Bunker Hill caption,
 
 00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:01.900
 I talk about that because, yeah,
 
 00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:03.181
 I think there were two in
 
 00:40:03.202 --> 00:40:05.222
 the fifty fourth and one or
 
 00:40:05.262 --> 00:40:07.762
 two in the fifty fifth as well, too.
 
 00:40:07.862 --> 00:40:08.043
 Yeah.
 
 00:40:09.621 --> 00:40:12.244
 The reason I put them in the
 
 00:40:12.284 --> 00:40:13.664
 Bunker Hill caption is
 
 00:40:13.744 --> 00:40:15.666
 because their fathers were
 
 00:40:15.827 --> 00:40:16.646
 veterans of Bunker Hill.
 
 00:40:16.666 --> 00:40:20.150
 It's interesting.
 
 00:40:20.170 --> 00:40:20.769
 It sounds like you have
 
 00:40:21.030 --> 00:40:21.951
 enough material for a
 
 00:40:21.990 --> 00:40:26.275
 couple of more books here.
 
 00:40:26.894 --> 00:40:27.775
 I would actually like to do
 
 00:40:27.795 --> 00:40:29.137
 a book just on the Black
 
 00:40:29.157 --> 00:40:32.760
 Regiments that served just
 
 00:40:32.780 --> 00:40:33.559
 during the Revolution.
 
 00:40:35.461 --> 00:40:36.342
 Because as I said,
 
 00:40:37.063 --> 00:40:38.344
 they alone have fascinating
 
 00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:39.219
 histories.
 
 00:40:40.181 --> 00:40:42.722
 And the thing is the the the
 
 00:40:42.942 --> 00:40:43.643
 first Rhode Island
 
 00:40:43.663 --> 00:40:45.463
 segregated it only lasted
 
 00:40:45.523 --> 00:40:46.804
 as as a segregated regiment
 
 00:40:46.824 --> 00:40:47.664
 for two and a half years.
 
 00:40:48.164 --> 00:40:49.626
 And it was it was an outlier
 
 00:40:49.666 --> 00:40:50.505
 in the Continental Army
 
 00:40:50.626 --> 00:40:51.887
 because the rest of the
 
 00:40:51.947 --> 00:40:53.268
 army was was integrated.
 
 00:40:54.369 --> 00:40:54.909
 So that you know,
 
 00:40:54.929 --> 00:40:57.150
 that's a it's and it didn't.
 
 00:40:58.271 --> 00:40:59.251
 And the reason it failed as
 
 00:40:59.271 --> 00:41:00.632
 a as a regiment was because
 
 00:41:00.672 --> 00:41:01.793
 it couldn't get the numbers.
 
 00:41:03.954 --> 00:41:04.813
 And that's really no fault
 
 00:41:04.833 --> 00:41:05.954
 of its own because of the
 
 00:41:05.994 --> 00:41:07.715
 fault of the men because they they
 
 00:41:08.342 --> 00:41:09.463
 It halted slave enlistment
 
 00:41:09.503 --> 00:41:10.423
 after like four months
 
 00:41:10.985 --> 00:41:12.405
 because for some reason it
 
 00:41:12.425 --> 00:41:14.686
 was not popular in Rhode Island.
 
 00:41:14.987 --> 00:41:16.148
 And it may be because it may
 
 00:41:16.168 --> 00:41:17.528
 have caused unrest among
 
 00:41:17.568 --> 00:41:19.269
 the slaves because the
 
 00:41:19.309 --> 00:41:21.911
 masters had to agree to it.
 
 00:41:21.971 --> 00:41:22.931
 And of course they were paid,
 
 00:41:23.052 --> 00:41:25.333
 the masters were paid.
 
 00:41:25.793 --> 00:41:26.773
 And then upon enlistment,
 
 00:41:27.434 --> 00:41:28.195
 the men were freed.
 
 00:41:28.735 --> 00:41:30.076
 So they served as free men.
 
 00:41:30.096 --> 00:41:31.177
 Interesting.
 
 00:41:31.789 --> 00:41:34.110
 But I guess with that option being open,
 
 00:41:34.670 --> 00:41:37.032
 I assume the enslaved people,
 
 00:41:37.293 --> 00:41:38.614
 they always knew what was going on.
 
 00:41:38.894 --> 00:41:40.916
 They always knew what was happening.
 
 00:41:40.976 --> 00:41:43.657
 So they were probably
 
 00:41:44.378 --> 00:41:45.800
 causing trouble for their masters,
 
 00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:46.960
 asking to be enlisted.
 
 00:41:47.021 --> 00:41:50.543
 And so they become free men.
 
 00:41:50.804 --> 00:41:51.523
 That's the only reason I
 
 00:41:51.543 --> 00:41:53.144
 could see why it would have
 
 00:41:53.166 --> 00:41:54.206
 been unpopular.
 
 00:41:54.786 --> 00:41:55.907
 But they did.
 
 00:41:56.925 --> 00:41:58.407
 They did stop slave enlistment,
 
 00:41:58.547 --> 00:42:00.389
 and they did continue to
 
 00:42:00.510 --> 00:42:02.512
 enlist free Blacks and free Indians,
 
 00:42:02.552 --> 00:42:03.893
 but there was never enough
 
 00:42:04.432 --> 00:42:05.635
 to fill the regiment.
 
 00:42:05.655 --> 00:42:06.695
 Interesting.
 
 00:42:07.621 --> 00:42:09.922
 We've been talking with John Reese,
 
 00:42:09.963 --> 00:42:12.485
 who is John U. Reese, who is the author.
 
 00:42:13.105 --> 00:42:14.306
 His most recent book is Don
 
 00:42:14.346 --> 00:42:15.706
 Trione's Black Soldiers
 
 00:42:15.746 --> 00:42:17.789
 Serving in North America's Founding War,
 
 00:42:17.909 --> 00:42:19.130
 Seventeen, Fifty-Four, Eighteen,
 
 00:42:19.190 --> 00:42:19.851
 Sixty-Five.
 
 00:42:20.271 --> 00:42:21.012
 His previous book,
 
 00:42:21.032 --> 00:42:22.152
 They Were Good Soldiers on
 
 00:42:22.213 --> 00:42:23.413
 African-Americans Serving
 
 00:42:23.432 --> 00:42:24.554
 in the Continental Army.
 
 00:42:25.394 --> 00:42:26.715
 Thank you so much for joining us, John.
 
 00:42:26.735 --> 00:42:29.217
 This has been a fascinating talk.
 
 00:42:29.237 --> 00:42:30.478
 Yeah, it was a really nice conversation.
 
 00:42:30.518 --> 00:42:31.460
 And as I said,
 
 00:42:31.579 --> 00:42:33.460
 I really appreciate you inviting me.
 
 00:42:33.481 --> 00:42:34.402
 It's an honor.
 
 00:42:35.416 --> 00:42:36.217
 Glad to have you.
 
 00:42:36.237 --> 00:42:37.579
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:39.340
 our man behind the curtain,
 
 00:42:39.501 --> 00:42:41.503
 and our listeners around the country,
 
 00:42:41.543 --> 00:42:42.164
 around the world.
 
 00:42:42.204 --> 00:42:43.284
 Every week we thank some
 
 00:42:43.326 --> 00:42:45.027
 folks who are tuning in regularly.
 
 00:42:45.067 --> 00:42:45.748
 And if you're in one of
 
 00:42:45.768 --> 00:42:47.889
 these places and want some Rev.
 
 00:42:47.909 --> 00:42:49.512
 Two-Fifty swag or you just
 
 00:42:49.552 --> 00:42:50.932
 want to ask Jonathan a question,
 
 00:42:51.333 --> 00:42:52.755
 his email is jlane at
 
 00:42:52.815 --> 00:42:54.978
 revolution two five zero dot org.
 
 00:42:55.677 --> 00:42:57.217
 and this week want to give a
 
 00:42:57.237 --> 00:42:58.719
 shout out to our listeners
 
 00:42:58.759 --> 00:43:00.119
 in richmond and in
 
 00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:02.039
 winston-salem and dallas
 
 00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:04.679
 towson maryland uh in
 
 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:07.201
 detroit michigan and here
 
 00:43:07.340 --> 00:43:09.420
 in the bay state in boston
 
 00:43:09.641 --> 00:43:11.342
 somerville east hampton and
 
 00:43:11.402 --> 00:43:13.161
 orleans and all places
 
 00:43:13.202 --> 00:43:14.302
 between and beyond thanks
 
 00:43:14.322 --> 00:43:15.362
 for joining us and now we
 
 00:43:15.402 --> 00:43:17.402
 will be piped out on the road to boston