Loyalist Merchant Networks, Robert Treat Paine, and Jefferson as President

Christina Carrick, an editor at the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, formerly an editor at the Robert Treat Paine Papers, joins us to talk about Jefferson and Paine.  She also talks about the loyalist family networks she has studied--New England merchants sent into exile who maintained connections with home.  She also discusses editorial projects, and how to become part of these important projects through organizations like the Association for Documentary Editing. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:00.455 --> 00:00:01.235
 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the Revolution
 
 00:00:02.516 --> 00:00:03.696
 Two Fifty Podcast.
 
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 I am Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:04.615 --> 00:00:06.597
 I chair the Rev Two Fifty Advisory Group.
 
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 We are a consortium of about
 
 00:00:08.798 --> 00:00:09.618
 seventy five or so
 
 00:00:09.637 --> 00:00:10.438
 organizations in
 
 00:00:10.497 --> 00:00:11.558
 Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of the
 
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 beginnings of American independence.
 
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 And our guest today is Christina Carrick.
 
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 And Christina Carrick is the
 
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 assistant editor of the
 
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 Papers of Thomas Jefferson.
 
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 Previously,
 
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 she was assistant editor of the
 
 00:00:25.882 --> 00:00:27.184
 Robert Treat Payne Papers at
 
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 the Mass Historical Society.
 
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 And she is at work on a book
 
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 on the benefits of banishment,
 
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 on the lasting influence of
 
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 loyalist merchant networks
 
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 in the early American Republic,
 
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 or the loyalists.
 
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 And so, Christina,
 
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 thanks so much for joining us.
 
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 Thank you for having me.
 
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 It's a pleasure to be here.
 
 00:00:47.390 --> 00:00:48.871
 And one of the things you
 
 00:00:49.390 --> 00:00:51.591
 argue and kind of show in
 
 00:00:51.671 --> 00:00:54.033
 your work is that the loyalists
 
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 in the early America.
 
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 Can you tell us a little bit
 
 00:01:01.097 --> 00:01:02.677
 more about who they are and
 
 00:01:02.718 --> 00:01:03.259
 what they're doing?
 
 00:01:04.498 --> 00:01:05.239
 So the people I've been
 
 00:01:05.260 --> 00:01:06.281
 looking at in particular
 
 00:01:06.381 --> 00:01:07.641
 are mainly merchants,
 
 00:01:08.201 --> 00:01:09.362
 but these are people who
 
 00:01:10.364 --> 00:01:12.084
 were essentially exiled,
 
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 although sometimes they
 
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 kind of make the excuse
 
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 that they were voluntarily
 
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 going on business trips, right, in
 
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 But a great many of these
 
 00:01:22.393 --> 00:01:23.192
 people were officially
 
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 banished and were not
 
 00:01:24.114 --> 00:01:25.314
 allowed to return home.
 
 00:01:25.974 --> 00:01:27.195
 But almost everyone I looked
 
 00:01:27.256 --> 00:01:28.837
 at had family or close
 
 00:01:28.876 --> 00:01:30.078
 friends that remained in
 
 00:01:30.197 --> 00:01:31.819
 Boston and in Massachusetts.
 
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 And so they kept in close
 
 00:01:34.881 --> 00:01:36.682
 correspondence with their family members.
 
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 And then so they're kind of creating this,
 
 00:01:41.105 --> 00:01:41.844
 I'm not going to call it a
 
 00:01:41.864 --> 00:01:43.206
 diaspora yet at that point,
 
 00:01:43.245 --> 00:01:44.046
 but a little bit of a
 
 00:01:44.087 --> 00:01:45.007
 correspondence network
 
 00:01:45.046 --> 00:01:46.668
 between wherever they were exiled.
 
 00:01:47.168 --> 00:01:48.609
 In the case of the people I look at,
 
 00:01:48.650 --> 00:01:50.611
 primarily England and the Caribbean.
 
 00:01:51.296 --> 00:01:53.237
 and back home in Boston.
 
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 And so they're trying to
 
 00:01:54.018 --> 00:01:55.019
 keep their properties
 
 00:01:55.058 --> 00:01:56.918
 together back in Massachusetts,
 
 00:01:57.379 --> 00:01:58.900
 keep in touch with family members.
 
 00:01:59.959 --> 00:02:00.881
 A lot of the time these
 
 00:02:00.921 --> 00:02:04.182
 people left behind wives, mothers,
 
 00:02:04.382 --> 00:02:05.763
 or daughters.
 
 00:02:06.543 --> 00:02:08.245
 that were a little bit more
 
 00:02:08.384 --> 00:02:10.728
 able to stay because they were women.
 
 00:02:10.747 --> 00:02:11.889
 I'm not going to say by any
 
 00:02:11.929 --> 00:02:13.330
 means that women were not political,
 
 00:02:13.550 --> 00:02:15.413
 but they could be perceived
 
 00:02:15.453 --> 00:02:17.375
 as a little bit safer to
 
 00:02:17.495 --> 00:02:19.676
 remain in Massachusetts
 
 00:02:19.697 --> 00:02:22.219
 while their male relatives went abroad.
 
 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:23.200
 The people I'm looking at,
 
 00:02:25.191 --> 00:02:26.651
 either kept in close
 
 00:02:26.692 --> 00:02:27.453
 correspondence with these
 
 00:02:27.473 --> 00:02:28.514
 people after the war ended,
 
 00:02:28.633 --> 00:02:29.435
 or in many cases,
 
 00:02:29.474 --> 00:02:31.195
 they returned to Massachusetts,
 
 00:02:31.657 --> 00:02:32.757
 but kept in touch with the
 
 00:02:32.798 --> 00:02:34.199
 people that they met while
 
 00:02:34.218 --> 00:02:35.079
 they were in exile,
 
 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:37.121
 which is a whole story of its own.
 
 00:02:37.140 --> 00:02:38.481
 Right, right, right.
 
 00:02:39.342 --> 00:02:40.524
 One of the people you really
 
 00:02:40.584 --> 00:02:42.025
 focus on is David Green,
 
 00:02:42.064 --> 00:02:44.287
 who goes to Antigua and all.
 
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 Can you tell us a little bit
 
 00:02:45.268 --> 00:02:46.368
 more about who he is and
 
 00:02:46.429 --> 00:02:47.610
 what drew you to him and
 
 00:02:48.850 --> 00:02:49.572
 what else we can learn?
 
 00:02:50.103 --> 00:02:51.122
 So David Green was a young
 
 00:02:51.182 --> 00:02:52.282
 merchant in Boston at the
 
 00:02:52.302 --> 00:02:53.264
 beginning of the revolution.
 
 00:02:53.663 --> 00:02:55.183
 He was in his mid-twenties, I think,
 
 00:02:55.204 --> 00:02:56.764
 I can't remember his exact birthday,
 
 00:02:56.804 --> 00:02:59.824
 but he was pegged as a
 
 00:02:59.865 --> 00:03:00.705
 loyalist because he
 
 00:03:00.745 --> 00:03:01.705
 supported Thomas Gage and
 
 00:03:01.725 --> 00:03:03.665
 Thomas Hutchinson at the
 
 00:03:03.725 --> 00:03:04.705
 onset of the revolution.
 
 00:03:04.746 --> 00:03:06.447
 So he went on a business
 
 00:03:06.486 --> 00:03:08.747
 trip to England in
 
 00:03:08.806 --> 00:03:09.986
 seventeen seventy five.
 
 00:03:10.448 --> 00:03:12.008
 And while he was there, he joined
 
 00:03:13.193 --> 00:03:15.414
 a group of other primarily
 
 00:03:15.455 --> 00:03:16.775
 New England exiled
 
 00:03:17.254 --> 00:03:18.254
 merchants or political
 
 00:03:18.294 --> 00:03:19.836
 figures that were also in London.
 
 00:03:20.735 --> 00:03:22.156
 They formed a little club
 
 00:03:23.757 --> 00:03:24.717
 that they started off
 
 00:03:24.736 --> 00:03:25.877
 calling the New England Club,
 
 00:03:25.896 --> 00:03:27.257
 but eventually just took on
 
 00:03:27.296 --> 00:03:28.418
 the name of the Loyalist
 
 00:03:28.457 --> 00:03:29.617
 Club and took that on as
 
 00:03:29.638 --> 00:03:30.457
 part of their identity
 
 00:03:30.478 --> 00:03:31.157
 while they were there.
 
 00:03:31.838 --> 00:03:33.338
 And so he stayed there for a
 
 00:03:33.378 --> 00:03:35.979
 few years before he met a
 
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 merchant from Antigua
 
 00:03:38.598 --> 00:03:40.058
 through their connection to
 
 00:03:40.098 --> 00:03:42.161
 this shared British merchant firm.
 
 00:03:42.221 --> 00:03:43.701
 He moved to Antigua with the
 
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 merchant that he met there.
 
 00:03:45.403 --> 00:03:45.563
 Okay.
 
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 His daughter lived in it for
 
 00:03:47.686 --> 00:03:48.407
 the rest of the war and
 
 00:03:48.426 --> 00:03:49.046
 then returned to New
 
 00:03:49.106 --> 00:03:50.989
 England in seventeen eighty two.
 
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 So he returns to New England
 
 00:03:54.592 --> 00:03:56.393
 after this business trip to
 
 00:03:56.514 --> 00:03:57.675
 England in seventeen
 
 00:03:57.694 --> 00:03:58.675
 seventy five when a lot of
 
 00:03:58.694 --> 00:03:59.596
 things are happening and
 
 00:03:59.616 --> 00:04:01.198
 then goes to the West Indies.
 
 00:04:01.237 --> 00:04:02.498
 But then he's able to come back.
 
 00:04:03.783 --> 00:04:04.664
 Well, first,
 
 00:04:04.705 --> 00:04:05.746
 he came back to Connecticut in
 
 00:04:05.786 --> 00:04:06.667
 seventeen eighty two,
 
 00:04:06.727 --> 00:04:08.427
 but he was not allowed to go to Boston.
 
 00:04:08.527 --> 00:04:09.489
 He was still officially
 
 00:04:09.528 --> 00:04:10.550
 banished and it took him a
 
 00:04:10.590 --> 00:04:11.289
 couple more years to
 
 00:04:11.370 --> 00:04:13.192
 actually be able to go back home home.
 
 00:04:13.211 --> 00:04:13.891
 Well,
 
 00:04:13.951 --> 00:04:15.432
 another few years to be able to be a
 
 00:04:15.592 --> 00:04:17.855
 citizen of Massachusetts officially,
 
 00:04:18.095 --> 00:04:20.237
 which was very important to him.
 
 00:04:20.297 --> 00:04:21.158
 What's the process of
 
 00:04:21.177 --> 00:04:22.439
 appealing your banishment?
 
 00:04:24.281 --> 00:04:24.440
 Well,
 
 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:26.021
 so you did have to have personal
 
 00:04:26.062 --> 00:04:27.502
 connections most of the time.
 
 00:04:27.862 --> 00:04:28.684
 And for him,
 
 00:04:30.064 --> 00:04:31.526
 his mother had returned to
 
 00:04:31.545 --> 00:04:33.968
 Boston and he had several
 
 00:04:34.007 --> 00:04:35.069
 half-brothers and then a
 
 00:04:35.108 --> 00:04:36.129
 few other friends who were
 
 00:04:36.149 --> 00:04:37.269
 in the merchant community there.
 
 00:04:37.831 --> 00:04:41.752
 And so he would write letters to them,
 
 00:04:41.773 --> 00:04:43.053
 but he also formally
 
 00:04:43.134 --> 00:04:43.795
 petitioned the
 
 00:04:43.834 --> 00:04:45.055
 Massachusetts General Court.
 
 00:04:45.875 --> 00:04:46.677
 He sent a couple of
 
 00:04:46.716 --> 00:04:49.959
 petitions first to be given residency,
 
 00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:51.399
 which was kind of...
 
 00:04:53.069 --> 00:04:55.149
 he'd be allowed to be back,
 
 00:04:55.189 --> 00:04:55.831
 but he wouldn't be
 
 00:04:55.891 --> 00:04:57.072
 considered a voting citizen
 
 00:04:57.132 --> 00:04:58.533
 or have the full rights of a citizen.
 
 00:04:59.312 --> 00:05:00.374
 So after a few petitions,
 
 00:05:00.413 --> 00:05:01.894
 the general court granted
 
 00:05:01.915 --> 00:05:03.156
 him that ability.
 
 00:05:04.396 --> 00:05:06.177
 And then he had to go live
 
 00:05:06.458 --> 00:05:08.459
 peacefully in Massachusetts
 
 00:05:08.499 --> 00:05:09.379
 for an additional three
 
 00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:10.560
 years before he sent more
 
 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:12.221
 petitions through his
 
 00:05:12.262 --> 00:05:13.161
 direct connections and
 
 00:05:13.201 --> 00:05:14.903
 friends to the general court again.
 
 00:05:14.983 --> 00:05:16.584
 And they granted him citizenship in,
 
 00:05:17.165 --> 00:05:17.464
 I believe,
 
 00:05:19.473 --> 00:05:20.735
 And then does he leave again
 
 00:05:20.774 --> 00:05:21.454
 or does he stay?
 
 00:05:21.475 --> 00:05:23.096
 He stays after that.
 
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 Yeah.
 
 00:05:24.697 --> 00:05:24.838
 I mean,
 
 00:05:24.858 --> 00:05:26.298
 I think he went to Rhode Island a
 
 00:05:26.338 --> 00:05:26.678
 few times,
 
 00:05:26.699 --> 00:05:27.920
 but he never left the country again.
 
 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:30.420
 But he did build up a very
 
 00:05:30.440 --> 00:05:31.221
 flourishing trade.
 
 00:05:31.401 --> 00:05:33.802
 And his father-in-law, John Rose,
 
 00:05:33.862 --> 00:05:34.903
 remained in the Caribbean.
 
 00:05:35.064 --> 00:05:36.264
 And so they kept up a close
 
 00:05:36.285 --> 00:05:37.886
 connection and ended up
 
 00:05:37.925 --> 00:05:38.887
 engaging in trade with each
 
 00:05:38.927 --> 00:05:41.649
 other after he settled down
 
 00:05:41.689 --> 00:05:42.189
 in New England.
 
 00:05:43.245 --> 00:05:45.166
 He achieved that connection
 
 00:05:45.187 --> 00:05:46.947
 by marriage when he was in the Caribbean,
 
 00:05:46.987 --> 00:05:48.028
 in addition to having all
 
 00:05:48.048 --> 00:05:49.488
 the friends that he left
 
 00:05:49.528 --> 00:05:51.050
 abroad that were other
 
 00:05:51.089 --> 00:05:52.930
 loyalists or other friends.
 
 00:05:56.713 --> 00:05:57.452
 You also mentioned,
 
 00:05:57.752 --> 00:05:59.314
 I know in some of your work,
 
 00:05:59.353 --> 00:06:00.774
 that George Irving,
 
 00:06:00.814 --> 00:06:02.694
 who was the Jefferson
 
 00:06:02.714 --> 00:06:04.415
 administration's consul in London,
 
 00:06:04.555 --> 00:06:05.396
 actually was another of
 
 00:06:05.416 --> 00:06:07.958
 these guys who came from a family that,
 
 00:06:07.997 --> 00:06:08.918
 twenty years earlier,
 
 00:06:08.958 --> 00:06:09.978
 had been booted out.
 
 00:06:11.156 --> 00:06:12.197
 So Irving is still like,
 
 00:06:12.497 --> 00:06:13.658
 I'm in my early stages of
 
 00:06:13.677 --> 00:06:15.339
 looking at him as a loyalist,
 
 00:06:15.379 --> 00:06:17.362
 but his father was exiled.
 
 00:06:17.382 --> 00:06:18.302
 And so he left with the
 
 00:06:18.322 --> 00:06:20.064
 family and went to London.
 
 00:06:20.543 --> 00:06:21.745
 And so his father and
 
 00:06:21.944 --> 00:06:22.925
 probably him when he was
 
 00:06:22.966 --> 00:06:24.086
 young ended up part of this
 
 00:06:24.146 --> 00:06:26.730
 loyalist club network in London.
 
 00:06:28.372 --> 00:06:29.552
 And then he, George Irving,
 
 00:06:29.593 --> 00:06:31.314
 ended up staying in Great Britain,
 
 00:06:31.355 --> 00:06:33.137
 but he kind of saw himself
 
 00:06:33.338 --> 00:06:34.680
 as an American and he
 
 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:36.843
 visited the US at least once.
 
 00:06:38.644 --> 00:06:40.567
 I don't remember the details on that,
 
 00:06:40.608 --> 00:06:41.569
 so don't quote me on that one.
 
 00:06:43.471 --> 00:06:45.531
 But he really closely
 
 00:06:45.591 --> 00:06:46.293
 identified with his
 
 00:06:46.312 --> 00:06:47.593
 American heritage and he
 
 00:06:48.053 --> 00:06:48.995
 tried to use the excuse
 
 00:06:49.014 --> 00:06:51.216
 that he was taken abroad as a young man.
 
 00:06:51.276 --> 00:06:52.076
 He didn't really have a
 
 00:06:52.297 --> 00:06:54.757
 place to be a loyalist at that point.
 
 00:06:55.137 --> 00:06:57.238
 And so he became really
 
 00:06:57.259 --> 00:06:58.040
 close with the American
 
 00:06:58.060 --> 00:06:59.060
 government and ended up the
 
 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:02.382
 consul for the Jefferson administration.
 
 00:07:02.403 --> 00:07:03.002
 That's interesting.
 
 00:07:03.413 --> 00:07:05.053
 Now, the New England Club, I mean,
 
 00:07:05.074 --> 00:07:06.535
 because they're identifying
 
 00:07:06.555 --> 00:07:07.935
 themselves as New Englanders.
 
 00:07:08.276 --> 00:07:09.257
 At first.
 
 00:07:09.658 --> 00:07:10.358
 Yeah, at first.
 
 00:07:10.817 --> 00:07:12.560
 But that seems to be a thing
 
 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:14.461
 I've seen in other people,
 
 00:07:14.500 --> 00:07:15.742
 even Thomas Hutchinson.
 
 00:07:16.141 --> 00:07:17.142
 They go to England and they
 
 00:07:17.182 --> 00:07:19.545
 realize that they're not really English.
 
 00:07:19.605 --> 00:07:20.906
 Is that something you've come across?
 
 00:07:21.814 --> 00:07:22.394
 Oh, certainly.
 
 00:07:22.714 --> 00:07:23.475
 Yeah.
 
 00:07:23.495 --> 00:07:24.396
 They do make friends with
 
 00:07:24.415 --> 00:07:25.156
 some people in England,
 
 00:07:25.196 --> 00:07:26.036
 but there is a lot of a
 
 00:07:26.076 --> 00:07:27.235
 feeling of rejection.
 
 00:07:28.375 --> 00:07:29.937
 And especially for the more
 
 00:07:29.997 --> 00:07:31.536
 prominent loyalists who who
 
 00:07:31.637 --> 00:07:32.716
 identified as loyalists at
 
 00:07:32.737 --> 00:07:33.557
 the very beginning,
 
 00:07:34.117 --> 00:07:36.517
 they expected to have like
 
 00:07:36.557 --> 00:07:37.798
 gratitude from the British
 
 00:07:37.838 --> 00:07:39.338
 public and to be kind of
 
 00:07:39.579 --> 00:07:40.598
 maybe not celebrities,
 
 00:07:40.619 --> 00:07:42.538
 but to be really appreciated as heroes.
 
 00:07:43.119 --> 00:07:44.319
 And then they get there and
 
 00:07:44.379 --> 00:07:45.740
 they're just kind of seen as, you know,
 
 00:07:46.500 --> 00:07:48.581
 Backwoods Americans that
 
 00:07:48.601 --> 00:07:51.045
 didn't do enough to keep
 
 00:07:51.204 --> 00:07:52.326
 America part of Great Britain.
 
 00:07:52.786 --> 00:07:54.007
 And so they're not accepted
 
 00:07:54.048 --> 00:07:55.329
 into high British society.
 
 00:07:55.370 --> 00:07:56.230
 They might be accepted by
 
 00:07:56.290 --> 00:07:57.252
 some individual people,
 
 00:07:57.291 --> 00:07:59.033
 but they're not really
 
 00:07:59.053 --> 00:08:00.415
 getting that status that they wanted.
 
 00:08:00.475 --> 00:08:00.995
 And so they end up
 
 00:08:01.036 --> 00:08:02.016
 gravitating toward
 
 00:08:02.377 --> 00:08:03.939
 merchants in Britain or
 
 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:05.701
 more often toward other
 
 00:08:05.821 --> 00:08:07.343
 Americans that are exiled.
 
 00:08:09.028 --> 00:08:09.569
 It's interesting,
 
 00:08:09.608 --> 00:08:11.829
 both they're seen as backwoods Americans,
 
 00:08:11.930 --> 00:08:12.750
 but on the other hand,
 
 00:08:12.771 --> 00:08:13.471
 they're seen as the ones
 
 00:08:13.490 --> 00:08:15.291
 who failed to keep their
 
 00:08:15.591 --> 00:08:17.673
 compatriots as part of the empire.
 
 00:08:19.153 --> 00:08:21.675
 And they also have this real
 
 00:08:21.975 --> 00:08:24.795
 dilemma they have because
 
 00:08:26.276 --> 00:08:28.398
 many of them were among the
 
 00:08:28.437 --> 00:08:30.858
 elite in Massachusetts or wherever,
 
 00:08:31.238 --> 00:08:32.500
 but then they go to England
 
 00:08:32.700 --> 00:08:34.441
 and there the elite is much,
 
 00:08:34.841 --> 00:08:36.022
 much higher than their
 
 00:08:36.062 --> 00:08:36.961
 level had been here.
 
 00:08:38.227 --> 00:08:39.328
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:08:40.350 --> 00:08:45.052
 And I think that feeling of still wanting,
 
 00:08:45.253 --> 00:08:47.234
 wanting to be in that powerful position,
 
 00:08:47.274 --> 00:08:49.096
 but not being at all at the
 
 00:08:49.115 --> 00:08:50.255
 level of Great Britain was
 
 00:08:50.336 --> 00:08:51.517
 really dislocating for
 
 00:08:51.557 --> 00:08:52.658
 people like Thomas Hutchinson.
 
 00:08:52.677 --> 00:08:52.937
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:08:52.998 --> 00:08:56.000
 Yeah, it is.
 
 00:08:56.301 --> 00:08:57.902
 We're talking with Christina Carrick,
 
 00:08:57.942 --> 00:08:59.602
 who is an editor at the
 
 00:08:59.643 --> 00:09:01.024
 papers of Thomas Jefferson,
 
 00:09:01.543 --> 00:09:04.807
 and also writing on the loyalist networks,
 
 00:09:04.886 --> 00:09:05.226
 these
 
 00:09:06.225 --> 00:09:07.365
 Americans who remain loyal
 
 00:09:07.385 --> 00:09:09.947
 to the crown and then are first banished.
 
 00:09:10.008 --> 00:09:11.308
 And some of them she shows
 
 00:09:11.349 --> 00:09:12.409
 to come back or maintain
 
 00:09:12.429 --> 00:09:14.510
 family connections with those who remain.
 
 00:09:14.951 --> 00:09:16.091
 You mentioned earlier that
 
 00:09:16.272 --> 00:09:17.552
 it was easier for women to
 
 00:09:17.753 --> 00:09:19.014
 hold onto property.
 
 00:09:19.033 --> 00:09:19.894
 And so can we talk a little
 
 00:09:19.914 --> 00:09:21.416
 bit more about the women
 
 00:09:21.436 --> 00:09:22.296
 they left behind when these
 
 00:09:22.336 --> 00:09:23.437
 guys go on their business
 
 00:09:23.456 --> 00:09:26.219
 trip to somewhere more receptive?
 
 00:09:28.597 --> 00:09:30.519
 Well, so you see this in a lot of cases,
 
 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:31.000
 actually.
 
 00:09:31.441 --> 00:09:32.942
 Almost every family that I
 
 00:09:33.102 --> 00:09:34.144
 looked at when I was doing
 
 00:09:34.163 --> 00:09:35.424
 my original research had
 
 00:09:35.684 --> 00:09:38.327
 female relatives that remained in Boston.
 
 00:09:39.168 --> 00:09:40.650
 And a lot of them were able to keep
 
 00:09:41.333 --> 00:09:42.715
 family property together but
 
 00:09:43.056 --> 00:09:44.317
 um the rules in
 
 00:09:44.356 --> 00:09:45.937
 massachusetts when they did
 
 00:09:45.957 --> 00:09:46.818
 allow confiscation of
 
 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:47.798
 estates they would often
 
 00:09:47.860 --> 00:09:49.360
 leave just like the house
 
 00:09:49.441 --> 00:09:50.442
 in the immediate area
 
 00:09:50.501 --> 00:09:52.322
 around the house for the
 
 00:09:52.562 --> 00:09:53.543
 woman who was living there
 
 00:09:53.583 --> 00:09:54.865
 so that they didn't have to
 
 00:09:55.625 --> 00:09:57.408
 uh provide charity to her
 
 00:09:57.488 --> 00:09:59.528
 but in some cases like just
 
 00:09:59.568 --> 00:10:00.809
 having that person there
 
 00:10:01.230 --> 00:10:02.392
 helps protect the property
 
 00:10:02.412 --> 00:10:04.833
 from confiscation at all um
 
 00:10:05.791 --> 00:10:06.932
 And then you also have these
 
 00:10:06.951 --> 00:10:07.812
 women who are providing a
 
 00:10:07.831 --> 00:10:09.712
 lot of news and commentary
 
 00:10:09.753 --> 00:10:10.633
 for all of their relatives
 
 00:10:10.673 --> 00:10:11.333
 who are abroad.
 
 00:10:11.793 --> 00:10:12.653
 And so when they're thinking
 
 00:10:12.693 --> 00:10:13.955
 about coming back to New England,
 
 00:10:14.095 --> 00:10:15.755
 it's really a lot of the
 
 00:10:15.796 --> 00:10:16.916
 time these female relatives
 
 00:10:16.936 --> 00:10:17.537
 that are saying,
 
 00:10:18.136 --> 00:10:20.217
 you can come back or don't come back,
 
 00:10:20.258 --> 00:10:21.879
 you might get hanged or
 
 00:10:23.178 --> 00:10:23.700
 giving a different
 
 00:10:23.740 --> 00:10:24.519
 commentary on what the
 
 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:25.961
 situation for them will be
 
 00:10:26.081 --> 00:10:27.341
 in terms of potential
 
 00:10:27.380 --> 00:10:29.461
 violence or economic
 
 00:10:29.501 --> 00:10:30.663
 opportunities or just
 
 00:10:30.702 --> 00:10:32.683
 general acceptance back into society.
 
 00:10:33.104 --> 00:10:34.264
 So they become really very
 
 00:10:34.304 --> 00:10:35.725
 important as a center to
 
 00:10:35.745 --> 00:10:36.886
 these news networks.
 
 00:10:37.447 --> 00:10:38.207
 And a lot of the time they
 
 00:10:38.227 --> 00:10:40.249
 kind of pass information
 
 00:10:40.288 --> 00:10:41.750
 along between different
 
 00:10:41.789 --> 00:10:42.711
 parts of the family that
 
 00:10:42.730 --> 00:10:44.172
 are exiled to different areas,
 
 00:10:45.113 --> 00:10:45.972
 especially families that
 
 00:10:46.013 --> 00:10:46.854
 ended up in Canada.
 
 00:10:46.974 --> 00:10:47.914
 You might have somebody send
 
 00:10:47.955 --> 00:10:49.056
 something from England that
 
 00:10:49.096 --> 00:10:51.017
 somehow makes it into Boston,
 
 00:10:51.096 --> 00:10:52.337
 and then they correspond
 
 00:10:52.357 --> 00:10:53.318
 with other relatives who
 
 00:10:53.339 --> 00:10:54.860
 are in Nova Scotia or New Brunswick.
 
 00:10:56.269 --> 00:10:57.090
 or vice versa.
 
 00:10:57.929 --> 00:10:59.451
 Or sometimes the other way around,
 
 00:10:59.490 --> 00:11:00.552
 they might correspond with
 
 00:11:00.692 --> 00:11:01.812
 Nova Scotia and then that
 
 00:11:02.172 --> 00:11:03.812
 information is relayed into
 
 00:11:04.014 --> 00:11:04.754
 Massachusetts.
 
 00:11:05.214 --> 00:11:06.394
 So they provide a really
 
 00:11:06.894 --> 00:11:08.035
 fascinating and important
 
 00:11:08.096 --> 00:11:10.017
 role as hubs and as like
 
 00:11:11.418 --> 00:11:13.339
 people who are able to hold
 
 00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:15.120
 things together when the
 
 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:15.980
 men are kicked out.
 
 00:11:18.422 --> 00:11:19.783
 How did you get onto this topic,
 
 00:11:19.822 --> 00:11:20.102
 by the way?
 
 00:11:20.123 --> 00:11:22.024
 What led you to these
 
 00:11:22.063 --> 00:11:23.605
 networks as something to study?
 
 00:11:24.686 --> 00:11:27.347
 um well it's kind of a long
 
 00:11:27.408 --> 00:11:28.788
 path uh so when I was
 
 00:11:29.090 --> 00:11:30.210
 initially in grad school I
 
 00:11:30.230 --> 00:11:32.331
 was very fascinated by um
 
 00:11:32.731 --> 00:11:34.793
 changing allegiances like
 
 00:11:34.833 --> 00:11:36.575
 people who crossed back and
 
 00:11:36.595 --> 00:11:37.975
 forth over the lines and
 
 00:11:37.995 --> 00:11:38.777
 somehow that got me
 
 00:11:38.817 --> 00:11:40.658
 interested in in loyalties
 
 00:11:41.379 --> 00:11:43.841
 and um I remember very
 
 00:11:43.900 --> 00:11:45.381
 early in in graduate school
 
 00:11:45.402 --> 00:11:46.923
 I read maya jazanoff's book
 
 00:11:47.302 --> 00:11:48.884
 uh liberty and I was just
 
 00:11:48.903 --> 00:11:50.024
 fascinated by these
 
 00:11:50.065 --> 00:11:51.446
 loyalists and the diaspora
 
 00:11:51.485 --> 00:11:52.706
 they created but then I
 
 00:11:52.746 --> 00:11:53.927
 started to wonder like
 
 00:11:55.164 --> 00:11:57.765
 did they go back or keep a
 
 00:11:57.806 --> 00:11:58.846
 connection to New England?
 
 00:11:58.885 --> 00:11:59.886
 Because that's one part that
 
 00:11:59.927 --> 00:12:01.966
 you didn't include as much
 
 00:12:02.047 --> 00:12:03.648
 in that really interesting story.
 
 00:12:04.427 --> 00:12:05.168
 And so then I started
 
 00:12:05.187 --> 00:12:05.989
 looking at people who
 
 00:12:06.009 --> 00:12:07.609
 either went back or kept
 
 00:12:07.649 --> 00:12:09.490
 these tight connections to
 
 00:12:11.129 --> 00:12:12.510
 people in the United States
 
 00:12:12.951 --> 00:12:14.110
 in this sort of Atlantic
 
 00:12:14.150 --> 00:12:16.251
 world framework that was
 
 00:12:16.312 --> 00:12:17.572
 very important to look at at the time.
 
 00:12:18.952 --> 00:12:19.332
 And so
 
 00:12:20.791 --> 00:12:22.971
 I really enjoy reading
 
 00:12:23.032 --> 00:12:24.711
 personal letters between people.
 
 00:12:25.272 --> 00:12:27.413
 And so I started going
 
 00:12:27.452 --> 00:12:28.734
 through their letters and
 
 00:12:28.793 --> 00:12:30.394
 cataloging where they were coming from,
 
 00:12:30.433 --> 00:12:31.354
 where they were going and
 
 00:12:31.374 --> 00:12:32.075
 what they were talking
 
 00:12:32.154 --> 00:12:33.975
 about between these people
 
 00:12:34.335 --> 00:12:35.255
 in the Atlantic.
 
 00:12:35.796 --> 00:12:36.995
 So initially I had adopted a
 
 00:12:37.035 --> 00:12:38.917
 number of families that
 
 00:12:39.236 --> 00:12:40.817
 remained divided after the
 
 00:12:40.856 --> 00:12:41.977
 revolution to see what they
 
 00:12:41.998 --> 00:12:42.658
 were talking about.
 
 00:12:44.171 --> 00:12:46.032
 But over the course of looking at that,
 
 00:12:46.072 --> 00:12:47.013
 I got interested again in
 
 00:12:47.052 --> 00:12:48.634
 people who did kind of use
 
 00:12:48.673 --> 00:12:50.254
 that as a tool to return.
 
 00:12:51.235 --> 00:12:52.716
 So I ended up landing on David Green.
 
 00:12:53.357 --> 00:12:56.600
 And in a way, I wanted him to feel
 
 00:12:58.038 --> 00:12:58.899
 to continue feeling
 
 00:12:58.918 --> 00:13:00.240
 dislocated when he got back
 
 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:03.142
 to Boston and to feel like
 
 00:13:03.162 --> 00:13:04.121
 he didn't belong anymore.
 
 00:13:04.142 --> 00:13:05.363
 But once I read through his letters,
 
 00:13:05.423 --> 00:13:06.884
 I realized that was not the case at all.
 
 00:13:07.163 --> 00:13:09.265
 That in fact, being in exile,
 
 00:13:09.605 --> 00:13:10.966
 he had found all these new
 
 00:13:11.006 --> 00:13:11.927
 opportunities that when he
 
 00:13:11.967 --> 00:13:12.807
 returned to Boston,
 
 00:13:12.948 --> 00:13:16.730
 suddenly he was able to
 
 00:13:17.010 --> 00:13:18.111
 have even better
 
 00:13:18.172 --> 00:13:19.153
 opportunities than he'd had
 
 00:13:19.192 --> 00:13:20.134
 before he left.
 
 00:13:20.533 --> 00:13:21.715
 And that kind of sent me
 
 00:13:21.735 --> 00:13:22.895
 down a new rabbit hole,
 
 00:13:24.256 --> 00:13:26.357
 a research hole of these
 
 00:13:26.378 --> 00:13:27.038
 people who were able to
 
 00:13:27.078 --> 00:13:27.719
 benefit from that.
 
 00:13:28.202 --> 00:13:28.462
 Interesting.
 
 00:13:29.043 --> 00:13:30.585
 Where are his papers and
 
 00:13:30.605 --> 00:13:31.384
 these letters that you were
 
 00:13:31.404 --> 00:13:32.525
 reading through?
 
 00:13:32.546 --> 00:13:33.667
 So David Green's papers are
 
 00:13:33.687 --> 00:13:35.427
 at the Clements Library in Michigan.
 
 00:13:36.087 --> 00:13:37.609
 They have his letter book.
 
 00:13:38.210 --> 00:13:39.331
 So there are some other
 
 00:13:39.410 --> 00:13:40.851
 letters of his in the
 
 00:13:40.912 --> 00:13:42.273
 Hubbard Green family papers
 
 00:13:42.452 --> 00:13:44.354
 in the Massachusetts Historical Society.
 
 00:13:44.874 --> 00:13:45.995
 But the main letter book is
 
 00:13:46.034 --> 00:13:46.995
 at the Clements Library.
 
 00:13:48.070 --> 00:13:50.130
 I also looked at the Biles family,
 
 00:13:50.191 --> 00:13:51.852
 which some people might be familiar with,
 
 00:13:51.893 --> 00:13:53.433
 Mather Biles and his sisters.
 
 00:13:53.953 --> 00:13:56.697
 Well, Mather Biles Sr., Mather Biles Jr.,
 
 00:13:57.096 --> 00:14:00.820
 the two daughters, and the Quincy family,
 
 00:14:01.660 --> 00:14:02.822
 who are all held at the
 
 00:14:02.841 --> 00:14:05.403
 Massachusetts Historical Society too.
 
 00:14:06.504 --> 00:14:07.946
 Just for those who don't know,
 
 00:14:07.985 --> 00:14:09.528
 can you fill us in on the
 
 00:14:09.567 --> 00:14:10.948
 Quincy's and the Biles's?
 
 00:14:12.196 --> 00:14:12.316
 Well,
 
 00:14:12.336 --> 00:14:13.716
 the Quincy family was very
 
 00:14:13.756 --> 00:14:16.357
 interesting because, well,
 
 00:14:16.378 --> 00:14:17.398
 this will connect to one of
 
 00:14:17.758 --> 00:14:18.359
 my later topics,
 
 00:14:18.379 --> 00:14:20.779
 but Samuel Quincy was
 
 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:21.460
 actually one of the
 
 00:14:21.500 --> 00:14:25.041
 prosecutors in the Boston
 
 00:14:25.081 --> 00:14:27.621
 Massacre trial with Robert Treat Payne,
 
 00:14:27.663 --> 00:14:29.243
 who I ended up working on later on,
 
 00:14:29.942 --> 00:14:31.344
 while his brother, Josiah Quincy,
 
 00:14:31.403 --> 00:14:32.764
 was with John Adams on the other side.
 
 00:14:32.784 --> 00:14:34.926
 Yes, and Josiah was the patriot.
 
 00:14:35.745 --> 00:14:37.527
 But Samuel Quincy ended up
 
 00:14:37.866 --> 00:14:40.307
 being really forced to file
 
 00:14:41.469 --> 00:14:42.489
 And he ended up in London,
 
 00:14:42.570 --> 00:14:44.431
 but very bitter and very angry.
 
 00:14:45.131 --> 00:14:46.533
 His wife remained in London
 
 00:14:46.613 --> 00:14:49.434
 until several years after the war.
 
 00:14:50.635 --> 00:14:51.777
 Did they ever reconcile?
 
 00:14:51.836 --> 00:14:52.878
 Did they ever get back together,
 
 00:14:53.238 --> 00:14:53.798
 he and his wife?
 
 00:14:54.446 --> 00:14:55.807
 She actually joins him in Antigua.
 
 00:14:56.989 --> 00:14:58.490
 So after David Green moved to Antigua,
 
 00:14:58.529 --> 00:14:59.211
 Samuel Quincy,
 
 00:14:59.250 --> 00:15:00.731
 who he was good friends with in London,
 
 00:15:00.851 --> 00:15:02.274
 ended up going down there too.
 
 00:15:03.475 --> 00:15:05.537
 And then his wife moves down in,
 
 00:15:05.876 --> 00:15:07.197
 I think it was in, in,
 
 00:15:07.457 --> 00:15:10.160
 but he only lives another
 
 00:15:10.201 --> 00:15:11.221
 two or three months after
 
 00:15:11.241 --> 00:15:12.943
 she was there before a Caribbean fever.
 
 00:15:12.964 --> 00:15:13.264
 Oh my goodness.
 
 00:15:14.860 --> 00:15:15.181
 killed her.
 
 00:15:16.942 --> 00:15:17.662
 So they were not.
 
 00:15:17.761 --> 00:15:18.602
 So there are some families
 
 00:15:18.623 --> 00:15:19.423
 that I've looked at where
 
 00:15:19.462 --> 00:15:22.424
 the wives actually are
 
 00:15:22.524 --> 00:15:23.445
 politically opposed to
 
 00:15:23.465 --> 00:15:25.005
 their husband's royalties.
 
 00:15:25.306 --> 00:15:25.947
 But in her case,
 
 00:15:26.047 --> 00:15:27.567
 I haven't seen any evidence of that,
 
 00:15:27.788 --> 00:15:29.447
 that she remained behind
 
 00:15:30.448 --> 00:15:34.831
 for logistical and their
 
 00:15:34.951 --> 00:15:37.712
 children stayed behind for quite a while.
 
 00:15:38.873 --> 00:15:39.953
 Interesting.
 
 00:15:40.033 --> 00:15:41.193
 Interesting.
 
 00:15:41.214 --> 00:15:41.274
 And
 
 00:15:43.043 --> 00:15:43.904
 And you mentioned, of course,
 
 00:15:43.945 --> 00:15:44.765
 Robert Treat Payne.
 
 00:15:44.806 --> 00:15:45.785
 And I know you've done a lot
 
 00:15:45.826 --> 00:15:47.307
 of work on Robert Treat Payne,
 
 00:15:47.347 --> 00:15:49.028
 who is first Attorney
 
 00:15:49.068 --> 00:15:50.330
 General of Massachusetts.
 
 00:15:50.350 --> 00:15:50.770
 As you said,
 
 00:15:50.811 --> 00:15:52.052
 he is Samuel Quincy's
 
 00:15:52.111 --> 00:15:53.692
 co-prosecutor at the
 
 00:15:53.732 --> 00:15:55.413
 massacre trials and signer
 
 00:15:55.433 --> 00:15:56.895
 of the Declaration of Independence.
 
 00:15:56.936 --> 00:15:58.736
 So you clearly are looking
 
 00:15:58.756 --> 00:15:59.957
 at people on both sides of
 
 00:15:59.998 --> 00:16:01.620
 this whole issue.
 
 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:03.341
 And so I wonder,
 
 00:16:03.902 --> 00:16:05.102
 what about Robert Treat Payne?
 
 00:16:05.123 --> 00:16:06.484
 And what have you found out?
 
 00:16:06.524 --> 00:16:07.585
 You call him one of the most
 
 00:16:07.625 --> 00:16:08.946
 forgotten of the founders.
 
 00:16:10.216 --> 00:16:10.556
 Well,
 
 00:16:10.635 --> 00:16:12.096
 Robert G. Payne I kind of stumbled on
 
 00:16:12.136 --> 00:16:12.856
 by accident.
 
 00:16:14.038 --> 00:16:15.119
 I wasn't seeking him out as
 
 00:16:15.259 --> 00:16:16.538
 part of my loyalist research.
 
 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:19.321
 I had the opportunity to get
 
 00:16:19.421 --> 00:16:20.701
 a job at the Massachusetts
 
 00:16:20.721 --> 00:16:22.462
 Historical Society as an
 
 00:16:22.482 --> 00:16:23.342
 assistant editor on the
 
 00:16:23.383 --> 00:16:24.583
 Payne Papers for the last
 
 00:16:24.624 --> 00:16:25.604
 few volumes there.
 
 00:16:26.384 --> 00:16:27.865
 And it was after I started
 
 00:16:27.905 --> 00:16:28.905
 working on the Payne Papers
 
 00:16:28.926 --> 00:16:29.966
 that I began to see more of
 
 00:16:29.986 --> 00:16:30.947
 these connections between
 
 00:16:30.986 --> 00:16:32.988
 him and various loyalists
 
 00:16:33.008 --> 00:16:33.729
 that I had looked at.
 
 00:16:34.808 --> 00:16:35.929
 But Paine is a really,
 
 00:16:36.409 --> 00:16:38.009
 he's a fascinating guy and
 
 00:16:38.049 --> 00:16:39.831
 his papers are especially fascinating.
 
 00:16:40.951 --> 00:16:41.831
 People do remember him a
 
 00:16:41.971 --> 00:16:43.032
 little bit as a signer of
 
 00:16:43.072 --> 00:16:44.371
 the Declaration of Independence,
 
 00:16:44.392 --> 00:16:46.452
 but he's not among the top
 
 00:16:46.533 --> 00:16:49.354
 list of people that are known for that.
 
 00:16:50.114 --> 00:16:52.076
 Because after he signed the declaration,
 
 00:16:52.135 --> 00:16:53.596
 he went back to
 
 00:16:53.697 --> 00:16:54.899
 Massachusetts to take on
 
 00:16:54.938 --> 00:16:56.259
 that role of attorney general.
 
 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:58.402
 And he never left New
 
 00:16:58.461 --> 00:16:59.903
 England again after that.
 
 00:16:59.942 --> 00:17:00.844
 So he didn't take on as
 
 00:17:00.884 --> 00:17:02.725
 prominent of a role later
 
 00:17:02.745 --> 00:17:03.846
 in the revolution or in the
 
 00:17:03.886 --> 00:17:04.688
 federal government that
 
 00:17:04.708 --> 00:17:06.108
 many of his compatriots did.
 
 00:17:07.574 --> 00:17:08.794
 But as Attorney General,
 
 00:17:09.275 --> 00:17:11.234
 he presided over quite a
 
 00:17:11.275 --> 00:17:12.635
 number of really important
 
 00:17:12.655 --> 00:17:13.875
 trials at that time.
 
 00:17:14.856 --> 00:17:17.297
 And his legal case notes
 
 00:17:17.336 --> 00:17:19.258
 where he had little
 
 00:17:19.298 --> 00:17:20.598
 notebooks that he's filling
 
 00:17:20.798 --> 00:17:23.138
 with his own notes on
 
 00:17:23.159 --> 00:17:24.779
 different testimonies and trials.
 
 00:17:25.452 --> 00:17:26.555
 are part of the papers that
 
 00:17:26.575 --> 00:17:28.436
 they are working on at the society.
 
 00:17:28.477 --> 00:17:29.357
 And they are very
 
 00:17:29.419 --> 00:17:30.559
 interesting to get a
 
 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:33.002
 snapshot at the lives of
 
 00:17:33.584 --> 00:17:35.226
 less prominent people in
 
 00:17:35.266 --> 00:17:36.268
 America at the time who
 
 00:17:36.288 --> 00:17:37.809
 were involved in all these legal cases.
 
 00:17:37.849 --> 00:17:38.170
 Right, right.
 
 00:17:39.372 --> 00:17:40.413
 Can you tell us about any of
 
 00:17:40.432 --> 00:17:42.155
 these cases that you found
 
 00:17:42.215 --> 00:17:42.896
 really interesting?
 
 00:17:43.923 --> 00:17:44.323
 Oh, well,
 
 00:17:44.523 --> 00:17:46.204
 a couple that are very famous
 
 00:17:46.945 --> 00:17:48.467
 would be like the Bathsheba
 
 00:17:48.507 --> 00:17:49.807
 Spooner murder trial.
 
 00:17:50.407 --> 00:17:51.449
 And I think sometime in the past,
 
 00:17:51.489 --> 00:17:52.329
 you had somebody who worked
 
 00:17:52.369 --> 00:17:54.511
 on Bathsheba Spooner onto this podcast.
 
 00:17:55.251 --> 00:17:56.492
 So that one was very interesting.
 
 00:17:56.693 --> 00:17:57.534
 And then he was the
 
 00:17:57.574 --> 00:17:58.755
 prosecutor in the Shays'
 
 00:17:58.795 --> 00:18:00.376
 Rebellion treason trials.
 
 00:18:00.916 --> 00:18:01.857
 So you have a lot of
 
 00:18:01.938 --> 00:18:04.460
 firsthand accounts of every
 
 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:06.241
 moment of those rebellions
 
 00:18:06.281 --> 00:18:07.863
 from the people involved and witnesses.
 
 00:18:09.538 --> 00:18:10.378
 And then there's another
 
 00:18:10.419 --> 00:18:12.059
 case that I found very
 
 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:16.561
 interesting that was in the
 
 00:18:16.662 --> 00:18:17.762
 seventeen eighties.
 
 00:18:17.782 --> 00:18:19.864
 I don't remember the exact year,
 
 00:18:19.923 --> 00:18:20.924
 but it was the case of
 
 00:18:20.964 --> 00:18:22.705
 these three free black men
 
 00:18:22.746 --> 00:18:25.307
 who worked around Boston
 
 00:18:25.346 --> 00:18:27.008
 Harbor unloading ships and
 
 00:18:27.048 --> 00:18:28.009
 doing other jobs in the
 
 00:18:28.028 --> 00:18:30.690
 harbor were abducted by
 
 00:18:33.432 --> 00:18:33.732
 I guess,
 
 00:18:33.792 --> 00:18:37.174
 enslavers who lured them out under
 
 00:18:37.194 --> 00:18:38.055
 the pretense that they were
 
 00:18:38.095 --> 00:18:39.096
 going to unload a ship in
 
 00:18:39.115 --> 00:18:39.816
 the Boston Harbor,
 
 00:18:39.836 --> 00:18:41.056
 but then took them to the
 
 00:18:41.076 --> 00:18:43.257
 Caribbean and sold them into slavery.
 
 00:18:44.397 --> 00:18:45.659
 But Prince Hall,
 
 00:18:46.179 --> 00:18:47.259
 the head of the Boston
 
 00:18:47.318 --> 00:18:50.181
 Freemasons and several Boston ministers,
 
 00:18:50.260 --> 00:18:52.040
 including Jeremy Belknap,
 
 00:18:52.101 --> 00:18:52.801
 one of the founders of the
 
 00:18:52.821 --> 00:18:54.342
 Massachusetts Historical Society,
 
 00:18:55.002 --> 00:18:56.682
 petitioned the governor to
 
 00:18:58.284 --> 00:18:59.804
 send letters to all of the
 
 00:18:59.844 --> 00:19:00.765
 governors of the Caribbean
 
 00:19:00.884 --> 00:19:02.345
 Islands until several months later,
 
 00:19:02.365 --> 00:19:03.484
 they were able to locate
 
 00:19:03.525 --> 00:19:04.805
 these men who had been sold
 
 00:19:05.326 --> 00:19:06.586
 and return them to Massachusetts.
 
 00:19:07.246 --> 00:19:08.546
 So the Robert Treat Payne
 
 00:19:08.566 --> 00:19:12.406
 role here is once they were returned,
 
 00:19:13.507 --> 00:19:14.787
 the men who abducted them
 
 00:19:14.807 --> 00:19:15.768
 were put on trial for
 
 00:19:15.807 --> 00:19:18.667
 kidnapping and found guilty.
 
 00:19:19.167 --> 00:19:22.028
 And I believe all three were
 
 00:19:24.084 --> 00:19:26.405
 sentenced to hard labor at
 
 00:19:26.486 --> 00:19:27.767
 Castle Island in Boston.
 
 00:19:27.787 --> 00:19:29.647
 Don't quote me on that part,
 
 00:19:29.667 --> 00:19:30.989
 but it's a very fascinating case.
 
 00:19:31.009 --> 00:19:31.929
 That sounds like it.
 
 00:19:31.969 --> 00:19:34.250
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:34.270 --> 00:19:34.590
 Amazingly,
 
 00:19:34.611 --> 00:19:36.612
 the kind of forensic search
 
 00:19:36.632 --> 00:19:37.512
 they're having to do and
 
 00:19:37.553 --> 00:19:38.993
 writing letters to the governors.
 
 00:19:39.114 --> 00:19:39.354
 I mean,
 
 00:19:39.394 --> 00:19:41.474
 this is a time-consuming thing to
 
 00:19:42.055 --> 00:19:43.797
 actually do that and then
 
 00:19:43.856 --> 00:19:45.196
 get them to respond and
 
 00:19:45.518 --> 00:19:46.577
 keep a lookout for these
 
 00:19:46.617 --> 00:19:48.378
 three men who could have
 
 00:19:48.398 --> 00:19:49.480
 very easily just blended
 
 00:19:49.539 --> 00:19:50.800
 into the society.
 
 00:19:51.670 --> 00:19:52.791
 So I find it amazing that
 
 00:19:52.811 --> 00:19:53.713
 they were actually able to
 
 00:19:53.733 --> 00:19:56.038
 find them and bring them back to Boston.
 
 00:19:56.098 --> 00:19:56.839
 And they were able to
 
 00:19:56.920 --> 00:19:58.502
 testify at their own trials.
 
 00:19:59.125 --> 00:20:00.227
 Wow.
 
 00:20:01.297 --> 00:20:02.497
 with the forever tree pain
 
 00:20:02.517 --> 00:20:03.438
 sitting there taking notes.
 
 00:20:04.337 --> 00:20:05.278
 That's fascinating.
 
 00:20:05.337 --> 00:20:05.577
 Yeah.
 
 00:20:05.758 --> 00:20:05.857
 Yeah.
 
 00:20:05.877 --> 00:20:06.718
 And I feel like that's not a
 
 00:20:06.738 --> 00:20:08.538
 case that very many people
 
 00:20:08.558 --> 00:20:09.499
 have talked about very much,
 
 00:20:09.578 --> 00:20:10.878
 even though it did connect
 
 00:20:10.898 --> 00:20:12.000
 directly to the banning of
 
 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:12.980
 the slave trade in
 
 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:14.779
 Massachusetts in particular.
 
 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:15.720
 Interesting.
 
 00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:17.441
 That's interesting.
 
 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:18.580
 What's his handwriting like?
 
 00:20:19.080 --> 00:20:19.621
 Terrible.
 
 00:20:20.142 --> 00:20:20.402
 Really?
 
 00:20:24.698 --> 00:20:25.978
 Well, while I was working there,
 
 00:20:26.478 --> 00:20:28.459
 I prided myself by saying I
 
 00:20:28.479 --> 00:20:29.660
 was one of maybe two people
 
 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:30.339
 in the world that could
 
 00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:32.221
 read his handwriting in the journals.
 
 00:20:32.721 --> 00:20:34.862
 The original being the lead editor,
 
 00:20:35.402 --> 00:20:35.842
 Ed Hanson,
 
 00:20:35.942 --> 00:20:37.343
 who was the original editor of
 
 00:20:37.363 --> 00:20:38.063
 the painting.
 
 00:20:40.970 --> 00:20:42.471
 When he had to write a nice
 
 00:20:42.550 --> 00:20:43.570
 letter to someone,
 
 00:20:43.691 --> 00:20:45.111
 it was somewhat legible,
 
 00:20:45.191 --> 00:20:46.810
 but in his legal case notes,
 
 00:20:46.851 --> 00:20:48.332
 it's extremely difficult to read.
 
 00:20:49.771 --> 00:20:50.811
 But I spent quite a lot of
 
 00:20:50.832 --> 00:20:51.771
 time with him and figured
 
 00:20:51.811 --> 00:20:53.512
 out some of his odd characters.
 
 00:20:53.992 --> 00:20:54.873
 Wow, wow.
 
 00:20:55.393 --> 00:20:58.273
 It was fun to be able to figure that out.
 
 00:20:59.213 --> 00:21:00.913
 So Ed Hansen's going off to
 
 00:21:00.933 --> 00:21:02.153
 be a minister in England,
 
 00:21:02.213 --> 00:21:03.595
 and you've gone off to other things.
 
 00:21:03.634 --> 00:21:04.855
 So is there anyone remaining
 
 00:21:04.875 --> 00:21:05.934
 who can read his handwriting?
 
 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:07.480
 Oh, well,
 
 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:12.281
 my mentor and boss at the
 
 00:21:12.342 --> 00:21:13.981
 Massachusetts Historical Society,
 
 00:21:14.363 --> 00:21:15.202
 Andine LeBlanc,
 
 00:21:15.403 --> 00:21:16.623
 learned some of his handwriting.
 
 00:21:18.503 --> 00:21:20.125
 She often said, here, Christina,
 
 00:21:20.164 --> 00:21:21.565
 take this.
 
 00:21:21.585 --> 00:21:23.885
 Figure this page of journal out for me,
 
 00:21:23.905 --> 00:21:24.165
 please.
 
 00:21:24.185 --> 00:21:24.266
 Yeah,
 
 00:21:26.067 --> 00:21:28.228
 I had a jarring experience when one
 
 00:21:28.268 --> 00:21:29.728
 of my best students was
 
 00:21:29.807 --> 00:21:30.948
 balking at reading
 
 00:21:31.028 --> 00:21:32.568
 handwriting of people in
 
 00:21:32.588 --> 00:21:33.930
 the eighteenth and early
 
 00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:34.730
 nineteenth century.
 
 00:21:36.267 --> 00:21:36.907
 So it's something we're
 
 00:21:36.948 --> 00:21:38.450
 losing by maybe not being
 
 00:21:38.490 --> 00:21:39.872
 able to read cursive generally,
 
 00:21:39.912 --> 00:21:41.354
 but also you have someone
 
 00:21:41.374 --> 00:21:43.036
 like Pena who has difficult handwriting.
 
 00:21:43.155 --> 00:21:45.378
 It does take some deciphering to do so.
 
 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:47.181
 I applaud you for doing this.
 
 00:21:48.529 --> 00:21:49.830
 Well, with Paine,
 
 00:21:49.871 --> 00:21:50.932
 it's a little funny because
 
 00:21:50.971 --> 00:21:52.153
 sometimes even people at
 
 00:21:52.173 --> 00:21:53.413
 the time would respond to
 
 00:21:53.473 --> 00:21:54.394
 his letters saying,
 
 00:21:55.135 --> 00:21:56.217
 I couldn't quite read what
 
 00:21:56.237 --> 00:21:56.958
 you wrote there,
 
 00:21:57.018 --> 00:21:58.638
 but I think you were talking about this.
 
 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:01.000
 So even by the standards of the time,
 
 00:22:01.060 --> 00:22:02.563
 he had very challenging handwriting.
 
 00:22:03.363 --> 00:22:04.564
 But I share your concerns
 
 00:22:04.625 --> 00:22:07.547
 about future generations
 
 00:22:07.626 --> 00:22:09.048
 being able to read a lot of
 
 00:22:09.068 --> 00:22:10.088
 these original resources.
 
 00:22:10.108 --> 00:22:11.730
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:22:11.770 --> 00:22:12.771
 What about...
 
 00:22:14.270 --> 00:22:15.311
 Does he do anything other
 
 00:22:15.332 --> 00:22:16.613
 than be attorney general?
 
 00:22:16.653 --> 00:22:18.253
 Not that that's an insignificant thing,
 
 00:22:18.273 --> 00:22:18.734
 but you mentioned he
 
 00:22:18.775 --> 00:22:20.296
 doesn't serve in the federal government,
 
 00:22:20.375 --> 00:22:21.336
 so he stays at home.
 
 00:22:21.376 --> 00:22:24.699
 Does he run for governor, do other things?
 
 00:22:24.739 --> 00:22:26.019
 How long was he attorney general?
 
 00:22:26.941 --> 00:22:28.422
 He was attorney general from
 
 00:22:28.781 --> 00:22:30.864
 the end of the end of
 
 00:22:30.923 --> 00:22:31.943
 seventeen seventy seven
 
 00:22:32.305 --> 00:22:34.246
 through seventeen eighty nine.
 
 00:22:36.189 --> 00:22:38.328
 So I might be slightly off on that.
 
 00:22:38.409 --> 00:22:40.410
 And then, in the year,
 
 00:22:41.390 --> 00:22:42.289
 if I remember correctly,
 
 00:22:42.329 --> 00:22:43.369
 he joined the Supreme
 
 00:22:43.410 --> 00:22:44.951
 Judicial Court for Massachusetts.
 
 00:22:46.131 --> 00:22:47.151
 And he served as a justice
 
 00:22:47.191 --> 00:22:48.411
 there for the next fourteen
 
 00:22:48.451 --> 00:22:52.311
 years until he retired,
 
 00:22:52.672 --> 00:22:54.471
 largely due to deafness.
 
 00:22:56.012 --> 00:22:56.992
 People were complaining that
 
 00:22:57.032 --> 00:22:59.153
 he could no longer hear the
 
 00:22:59.212 --> 00:23:00.212
 witness testimonies,
 
 00:23:00.232 --> 00:23:03.534
 so they encouraged him to retire.
 
 00:23:04.826 --> 00:23:08.308
 That would be a problem if you're a judge.
 
 00:23:08.348 --> 00:23:09.849
 We're talking with Christina Carrick,
 
 00:23:09.910 --> 00:23:10.930
 assistant editor at the
 
 00:23:10.970 --> 00:23:12.290
 Papers of Thomas Jefferson,
 
 00:23:12.330 --> 00:23:14.392
 formerly one of the editors
 
 00:23:14.432 --> 00:23:16.093
 at the Papers of Robert Treat Payne,
 
 00:23:16.153 --> 00:23:17.593
 working on a book about the
 
 00:23:17.693 --> 00:23:18.953
 loyalist networks in
 
 00:23:19.013 --> 00:23:20.535
 post-revolutionary America
 
 00:23:20.954 --> 00:23:21.996
 and in Britain and the
 
 00:23:22.455 --> 00:23:23.916
 greater Atlantic world.
 
 00:23:25.738 --> 00:23:27.258
 So now you're at work in
 
 00:23:27.298 --> 00:23:28.358
 Princeton on the Papers of
 
 00:23:28.398 --> 00:23:29.378
 Thomas Jefferson.
 
 00:23:30.259 --> 00:23:31.520
 What period are you focusing
 
 00:23:31.580 --> 00:23:32.260
 on with Jefferson?
 
 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:34.400
 Right now,
 
 00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:36.000
 we are working primarily through
 
 00:23:36.221 --> 00:23:37.701
 eighteen oh six and eighteen oh seven.
 
 00:23:39.143 --> 00:23:41.364
 So with Thomas Jefferson, of course.
 
 00:23:41.983 --> 00:23:42.943
 So Robert Treat Payne,
 
 00:23:42.963 --> 00:23:43.964
 we had a total of five
 
 00:23:44.005 --> 00:23:46.226
 volumes of published papers.
 
 00:23:46.885 --> 00:23:47.746
 Thomas Jefferson,
 
 00:23:47.806 --> 00:23:49.707
 we're working on volume fifty four.
 
 00:23:50.647 --> 00:23:51.327
 We have more to go.
 
 00:23:52.188 --> 00:23:53.749
 And the retirement series
 
 00:23:53.788 --> 00:23:56.549
 papers are down at Monticello.
 
 00:23:57.891 --> 00:23:58.851
 anything after he retired
 
 00:23:58.871 --> 00:23:59.692
 from the presidency is
 
 00:23:59.711 --> 00:24:00.612
 being published by them.
 
 00:24:00.672 --> 00:24:02.491
 So total, we're looking at, you know,
 
 00:24:02.612 --> 00:24:04.393
 eighty five volumes of
 
 00:24:04.633 --> 00:24:05.913
 Thomas Jefferson's papers
 
 00:24:05.952 --> 00:24:08.334
 compared to five of other series.
 
 00:24:08.894 --> 00:24:10.413
 And so each volume for us
 
 00:24:10.473 --> 00:24:12.295
 might cover three months of
 
 00:24:12.355 --> 00:24:13.714
 Jefferson's presidency.
 
 00:24:14.755 --> 00:24:16.615
 So in the six years I've been there,
 
 00:24:16.655 --> 00:24:19.356
 we've covered late five
 
 00:24:19.396 --> 00:24:20.797
 through mid eighteen oh seven.
 
 00:24:21.636 --> 00:24:22.637
 So six years for me,
 
 00:24:22.678 --> 00:24:23.958
 only two years for Jefferson.
 
 00:24:24.565 --> 00:24:25.425
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:25.746 --> 00:24:26.086
 And of course,
 
 00:24:26.106 --> 00:24:27.508
 this Papers project began
 
 00:24:27.587 --> 00:24:29.911
 before you were born in the
 
 00:24:29.931 --> 00:24:31.271
 early nineteen fifties, I believe,
 
 00:24:31.311 --> 00:24:32.512
 when the United States
 
 00:24:32.532 --> 00:24:33.795
 started this enterprise of
 
 00:24:34.214 --> 00:24:36.196
 publishing these founding documents.
 
 00:24:36.217 --> 00:24:39.119
 So you're kind of for you,
 
 00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:40.821
 this is like six years of work,
 
 00:24:40.902 --> 00:24:42.604
 but it's part of a much bigger,
 
 00:24:42.864 --> 00:24:45.287
 longer project that I don't
 
 00:24:45.307 --> 00:24:46.188
 know if in our lifetimes
 
 00:24:46.228 --> 00:24:47.209
 we'll see the end of it.
 
 00:24:48.323 --> 00:24:48.482
 Well,
 
 00:24:48.542 --> 00:24:51.703
 Julian Boyd started the project in
 
 00:24:51.743 --> 00:24:52.664
 nineteen forty four.
 
 00:24:52.684 --> 00:24:54.345
 He was the librarian of
 
 00:24:54.384 --> 00:24:55.645
 Princeton University at the time.
 
 00:24:55.665 --> 00:24:58.527
 I think it was nineteen
 
 00:24:58.567 --> 00:24:59.968
 fifty before they were able
 
 00:24:59.988 --> 00:25:01.048
 to get the first volume out.
 
 00:25:01.728 --> 00:25:03.068
 But yes,
 
 00:25:03.148 --> 00:25:04.588
 eighty one years now working
 
 00:25:04.608 --> 00:25:06.309
 through this project with a
 
 00:25:06.329 --> 00:25:07.691
 whole team of editors.
 
 00:25:08.951 --> 00:25:10.032
 But one of the wonderful
 
 00:25:10.053 --> 00:25:10.973
 things about the papers of
 
 00:25:11.013 --> 00:25:12.756
 Thomas Jefferson compared
 
 00:25:12.796 --> 00:25:14.218
 to earlier volumes of his
 
 00:25:14.258 --> 00:25:15.740
 writings that have already
 
 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.763
 been published is that he, for one,
 
 00:25:18.824 --> 00:25:22.028
 kept everything or almost everything
 
 00:25:22.998 --> 00:25:24.159
 And so we are publishing
 
 00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:25.941
 virtually everything.
 
 00:25:26.520 --> 00:25:27.761
 And so while he was president,
 
 00:25:27.821 --> 00:25:28.742
 he received a lot of
 
 00:25:28.803 --> 00:25:30.845
 letters from people all over the country,
 
 00:25:30.884 --> 00:25:32.046
 all over the world, really.
 
 00:25:32.445 --> 00:25:33.307
 And so we are making an
 
 00:25:33.326 --> 00:25:35.189
 attempt to publish all of those.
 
 00:25:36.150 --> 00:25:37.290
 And that it really helps get
 
 00:25:37.550 --> 00:25:38.230
 the voices of
 
 00:25:39.531 --> 00:25:41.334
 under-representative people
 
 00:25:41.753 --> 00:25:44.836
 into the papers collection,
 
 00:25:45.136 --> 00:25:46.458
 because he did keep
 
 00:25:47.498 --> 00:25:49.598
 everything he didn't respond
 
 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:51.819
 he did record it in his
 
 00:25:51.859 --> 00:25:53.080
 book of received letters
 
 00:25:53.701 --> 00:25:54.622
 file these things away
 
 00:25:54.642 --> 00:25:57.202
 interesting so you're not
 
 00:25:57.343 --> 00:25:58.482
 just publishing things
 
 00:25:58.544 --> 00:25:59.844
 jefferson wrote but things
 
 00:25:59.884 --> 00:26:01.684
 people wrote to jefferson
 
 00:26:01.884 --> 00:26:04.346
 yes letters to the
 
 00:26:04.385 --> 00:26:06.446
 president yeah that could
 
 00:26:06.467 --> 00:26:07.188
 be a whole series
 
 00:26:08.779 --> 00:26:11.362
 Oh, it's been the last, let's see,
 
 00:26:11.422 --> 00:26:13.624
 how many volumes of Jefferson Papers?
 
 00:26:14.765 --> 00:26:15.345
 At least ten.
 
 00:26:16.365 --> 00:26:17.968
 So what kinds of things are
 
 00:26:17.988 --> 00:26:19.067
 people writing to him about?
 
 00:26:19.088 --> 00:26:20.890
 Oh, well,
 
 00:26:21.049 --> 00:26:23.071
 recently I had a man from rural
 
 00:26:23.132 --> 00:26:25.534
 Maine who wrote a very long
 
 00:26:25.574 --> 00:26:26.515
 letter describing
 
 00:26:26.555 --> 00:26:27.575
 conditions in rural Maine
 
 00:26:27.595 --> 00:26:29.277
 and asking for a post office.
 
 00:26:31.266 --> 00:26:34.028
 I also recently had a
 
 00:26:34.669 --> 00:26:35.848
 Presbyterian minister named
 
 00:26:35.868 --> 00:26:37.369
 Gideon Blackburn who
 
 00:26:37.490 --> 00:26:40.392
 established a school in
 
 00:26:40.852 --> 00:26:42.633
 like the North Carolina, Tennessee border,
 
 00:26:42.993 --> 00:26:46.635
 modern border for Cherokee children.
 
 00:26:47.816 --> 00:26:50.258
 in the early eighteen hundreds.
 
 00:26:50.397 --> 00:26:53.138
 And so he had the students
 
 00:26:53.318 --> 00:26:54.680
 at that school write
 
 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:56.461
 letters to the president
 
 00:26:56.760 --> 00:26:58.902
 discussing their education
 
 00:26:58.981 --> 00:26:59.662
 at that school.
 
 00:27:00.682 --> 00:27:01.823
 We are now publishing the
 
 00:27:01.863 --> 00:27:03.644
 letters of these children
 
 00:27:03.663 --> 00:27:04.904
 who are at that school.
 
 00:27:06.070 --> 00:27:07.752
 um and then of course you
 
 00:27:07.792 --> 00:27:08.993
 have you know major
 
 00:27:09.013 --> 00:27:09.815
 correspondence like the
 
 00:27:09.855 --> 00:27:10.816
 marquis de la fayette
 
 00:27:10.836 --> 00:27:12.576
 writing to him from europe
 
 00:27:12.616 --> 00:27:13.577
 talking about things going
 
 00:27:13.617 --> 00:27:17.041
 on there or very um in
 
 00:27:17.142 --> 00:27:18.663
 eighteen oh six eighteen oh
 
 00:27:18.702 --> 00:27:19.804
 seven we're working through
 
 00:27:19.844 --> 00:27:21.705
 the aaron burr papers so
 
 00:27:22.046 --> 00:27:24.749
 many accounts of uh
 
 00:27:25.871 --> 00:27:27.231
 different either first
 
 00:27:27.372 --> 00:27:28.894
 rumors of what's going on
 
 00:27:29.673 --> 00:27:33.778
 um in the uh with with what
 
 00:27:33.857 --> 00:27:35.219
 aaron is up to and then
 
 00:27:35.278 --> 00:27:36.980
 later on uh papers related
 
 00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:38.942
 to his trial when he was
 
 00:27:38.961 --> 00:27:41.364
 trying to do anything a
 
 00:27:41.384 --> 00:27:42.625
 very wide array of things
 
 00:27:42.805 --> 00:27:44.346
 oh yeah yeah so you have
 
 00:27:44.365 --> 00:27:45.547
 both kind of the big issues
 
 00:27:45.586 --> 00:27:46.548
 but then the smaller ones
 
 00:27:46.567 --> 00:27:47.548
 like you know the reverend
 
 00:27:47.568 --> 00:27:48.990
 blackburn and someone in
 
 00:27:49.029 --> 00:27:50.711
 maine wanting a post office and
 
 00:27:51.432 --> 00:27:52.832
 a fascinating range of
 
 00:27:52.951 --> 00:27:54.732
 things that are coming
 
 00:27:54.772 --> 00:27:57.492
 across Jefferson's desk and
 
 00:27:57.532 --> 00:27:59.314
 then through the Jefferson Pave,
 
 00:27:59.433 --> 00:28:00.294
 across yours too.
 
 00:28:00.973 --> 00:28:01.074
 Oh,
 
 00:28:01.094 --> 00:28:02.534
 and then we have things like letters
 
 00:28:02.554 --> 00:28:03.394
 from his granddaughter
 
 00:28:03.434 --> 00:28:04.275
 talking about the chickens
 
 00:28:04.315 --> 00:28:04.934
 they're raising.
 
 00:28:06.115 --> 00:28:07.095
 So it really is like a
 
 00:28:07.355 --> 00:28:08.955
 fascinating array of
 
 00:28:09.316 --> 00:28:10.496
 snapshots into the early
 
 00:28:10.536 --> 00:28:11.276
 American Republic.
 
 00:28:11.355 --> 00:28:12.676
 Now,
 
 00:28:12.696 --> 00:28:13.997
 what has changed about your
 
 00:28:14.037 --> 00:28:15.517
 perceptions of Jefferson as
 
 00:28:15.537 --> 00:28:17.037
 you've been at this now six
 
 00:28:17.116 --> 00:28:19.738
 year deep dive into his presidency?
 
 00:28:23.140 --> 00:28:24.339
 I'm not really sure that I
 
 00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:25.840
 would say much in my
 
 00:28:25.921 --> 00:28:27.861
 perception has necessarily changed,
 
 00:28:27.961 --> 00:28:29.320
 except that I've gained
 
 00:28:29.361 --> 00:28:31.342
 respect for how much he kept things.
 
 00:28:32.942 --> 00:28:33.843
 But for me,
 
 00:28:34.182 --> 00:28:35.923
 the real joy of working on the
 
 00:28:35.942 --> 00:28:37.442
 Jefferson Papers is to see
 
 00:28:37.502 --> 00:28:38.403
 all the stories from these
 
 00:28:38.483 --> 00:28:41.203
 other people that are writing to him,
 
 00:28:41.223 --> 00:28:43.845
 just to get a glimpse into
 
 00:28:43.964 --> 00:28:44.805
 life for all of these
 
 00:28:44.825 --> 00:28:46.105
 different people or what
 
 00:28:46.164 --> 00:28:48.425
 issues they are seeing as
 
 00:28:48.465 --> 00:28:49.586
 important enough to them to
 
 00:28:49.605 --> 00:28:50.727
 write to the president about them.
 
 00:28:51.287 --> 00:28:51.826
 And so for me,
 
 00:28:53.481 --> 00:28:55.027
 it's fascinating to be able
 
 00:28:55.047 --> 00:28:56.791
 to research and in a way
 
 00:28:56.833 --> 00:28:58.597
 get to know like all kinds
 
 00:28:58.637 --> 00:28:59.681
 of people from that era,
 
 00:28:59.821 --> 00:29:01.145
 not just Jefferson himself.
 
 00:29:02.352 --> 00:29:02.952
 That's true.
 
 00:29:02.972 --> 00:29:04.173
 That really is a window.
 
 00:29:04.473 --> 00:29:05.894
 You mentioned going down rabbit holes,
 
 00:29:05.934 --> 00:29:06.895
 and this gives you any
 
 00:29:06.955 --> 00:29:08.417
 number of new ones to look
 
 00:29:08.498 --> 00:29:11.121
 into these correspondence with Jefferson.
 
 00:29:11.161 --> 00:29:12.521
 We're talking with Christina Carrick,
 
 00:29:12.561 --> 00:29:13.803
 who is an assistant editor
 
 00:29:14.263 --> 00:29:15.845
 at the papers of Thomas Jefferson,
 
 00:29:15.884 --> 00:29:18.708
 working through the presidential papers,
 
 00:29:18.768 --> 00:29:20.509
 actually his second term.
 
 00:29:20.910 --> 00:29:22.371
 You've also written about
 
 00:29:22.431 --> 00:29:24.693
 his second inaugural address, say,
 
 00:29:25.574 --> 00:29:27.154
 His first inaugural address, of course,
 
 00:29:27.194 --> 00:29:28.515
 is one of the great touchstones.
 
 00:29:28.575 --> 00:29:30.515
 It sets the tone for the
 
 00:29:30.555 --> 00:29:32.316
 next half century or so of
 
 00:29:32.336 --> 00:29:33.236
 American politics.
 
 00:29:33.256 --> 00:29:34.056
 What can you tell us about
 
 00:29:34.096 --> 00:29:35.135
 his second inaugural
 
 00:29:35.155 --> 00:29:37.277
 address as a statement?
 
 00:29:38.737 --> 00:29:39.017
 Well,
 
 00:29:39.096 --> 00:29:40.498
 a lot of my research on the second
 
 00:29:40.538 --> 00:29:41.817
 inaugural has actually been
 
 00:29:42.698 --> 00:29:44.739
 on Jefferson's ability to present
 
 00:29:46.078 --> 00:29:48.180
 So I wish I had the image in front of me,
 
 00:29:48.259 --> 00:29:49.619
 but the fascinating thing
 
 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:50.601
 there is actually the
 
 00:29:50.641 --> 00:29:53.122
 physical relic that he left behind.
 
 00:29:53.842 --> 00:29:55.603
 So for his second inaugural address,
 
 00:29:56.182 --> 00:29:57.442
 he didn't think that he
 
 00:29:57.502 --> 00:29:59.844
 presented his first one all that well,
 
 00:29:59.884 --> 00:30:02.984
 because Jefferson was renowned as, well,
 
 00:30:03.644 --> 00:30:05.165
 Jefferson was known as not
 
 00:30:05.445 --> 00:30:07.826
 being a particularly good public speaker.
 
 00:30:08.532 --> 00:30:08.653
 Well,
 
 00:30:08.692 --> 00:30:09.874
 he knew he wasn't a good public speaker.
 
 00:30:09.894 --> 00:30:09.974
 Yeah.
 
 00:30:11.375 --> 00:30:12.537
 So he put a lot of effort
 
 00:30:12.616 --> 00:30:13.877
 into the second inaugural
 
 00:30:13.999 --> 00:30:16.080
 and he put he was able to
 
 00:30:16.161 --> 00:30:17.382
 abbreviate the entire
 
 00:30:17.422 --> 00:30:18.623
 address onto the front and
 
 00:30:18.663 --> 00:30:20.484
 back of one sheet of paper.
 
 00:30:21.145 --> 00:30:22.247
 And then throughout the thing,
 
 00:30:22.287 --> 00:30:23.909
 he put these little
 
 00:30:24.068 --> 00:30:25.750
 markings like hash marks
 
 00:30:25.829 --> 00:30:27.092
 and circles and other
 
 00:30:29.028 --> 00:30:31.788
 elocution marks onto the document,
 
 00:30:31.848 --> 00:30:32.849
 trying to indicate to
 
 00:30:32.910 --> 00:30:34.250
 himself where he should
 
 00:30:34.391 --> 00:30:36.211
 pause or where he should
 
 00:30:36.311 --> 00:30:38.653
 add emphasis onto different words.
 
 00:30:39.093 --> 00:30:40.733
 I think to try to help him
 
 00:30:40.814 --> 00:30:43.615
 present the address better
 
 00:30:43.755 --> 00:30:46.195
 and more understandably
 
 00:30:46.395 --> 00:30:48.317
 than he did his previous address.
 
 00:30:49.218 --> 00:30:49.917
 Unfortunately,
 
 00:30:49.978 --> 00:30:51.118
 despite all of that work
 
 00:30:51.159 --> 00:30:52.019
 that he put into it,
 
 00:30:52.159 --> 00:30:53.480
 everyone who was at the
 
 00:30:53.539 --> 00:30:54.579
 inaugural address commented
 
 00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.321
 that he was not audible at all.
 
 00:31:00.423 --> 00:31:01.945
 In an era before microphones
 
 00:31:02.086 --> 00:31:03.166
 and other things.
 
 00:31:04.528 --> 00:31:05.911
 And the first inaugural
 
 00:31:05.931 --> 00:31:06.711
 address is really a
 
 00:31:06.771 --> 00:31:08.133
 tremendously eloquent
 
 00:31:08.294 --> 00:31:10.076
 statement of everything.
 
 00:31:12.219 --> 00:31:12.739
 But yeah,
 
 00:31:12.798 --> 00:31:14.582
 you can imagine if no one can hear it,
 
 00:31:15.041 --> 00:31:16.944
 it's not going to have the same impact.
 
 00:31:19.098 --> 00:31:20.339
 He did immediately send it
 
 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:21.240
 off to be published.
 
 00:31:22.020 --> 00:31:22.641
 Most people around the
 
 00:31:22.661 --> 00:31:23.622
 country would be reading
 
 00:31:23.682 --> 00:31:26.262
 both in newspapers in
 
 00:31:26.303 --> 00:31:27.344
 printed form anyway.
 
 00:31:28.785 --> 00:31:29.986
 But no,
 
 00:31:30.026 --> 00:31:31.527
 the eloquence of the spoken word
 
 00:31:31.567 --> 00:31:33.867
 would not have really come through.
 
 00:31:33.968 --> 00:31:35.028
 And the second address is
 
 00:31:35.148 --> 00:31:36.028
 eloquent in a way, too.
 
 00:31:36.068 --> 00:31:37.150
 It doesn't have quite the
 
 00:31:37.250 --> 00:31:40.412
 same quotable passages that
 
 00:31:40.451 --> 00:31:42.032
 you see in the first inaugural.
 
 00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.380
 Well, the one great one is what farmer,
 
 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:47.361
 what mechanic,
 
 00:31:47.401 --> 00:31:48.621
 what artisan ever sees the
 
 00:31:48.681 --> 00:31:50.382
 face of a tax gatherer of
 
 00:31:50.402 --> 00:31:51.382
 the United States?
 
 00:31:53.842 --> 00:31:56.143
 He says, we are all Federalists.
 
 00:31:56.182 --> 00:31:59.763
 We are all Republicans in the first one.
 
 00:31:59.784 --> 00:32:00.564
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:00.584 --> 00:32:02.904
 So,
 
 00:32:02.944 --> 00:32:04.724
 so what do we have to look forward to
 
 00:32:04.765 --> 00:32:07.226
 in the next volume of Jefferson's papers?
 
 00:32:08.984 --> 00:32:09.586
 Oh, well,
 
 00:32:10.586 --> 00:32:12.027
 so we're usually working on like
 
 00:32:12.086 --> 00:32:13.669
 four at a time that are
 
 00:32:13.689 --> 00:32:14.368
 going through different
 
 00:32:14.429 --> 00:32:15.589
 parts of the review process.
 
 00:32:16.029 --> 00:32:18.112
 But volume forty nine,
 
 00:32:18.192 --> 00:32:19.512
 which will be coming out at
 
 00:32:19.532 --> 00:32:20.733
 the end of this year,
 
 00:32:21.713 --> 00:32:26.738
 has the beginnings of the
 
 00:32:26.837 --> 00:32:28.239
 Aaron Burr series.
 
 00:32:30.298 --> 00:32:30.900
 And then the one we're
 
 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:33.520
 working on right now, volume fifty four,
 
 00:32:33.560 --> 00:32:34.402
 which will be a few years
 
 00:32:34.442 --> 00:32:35.201
 before it comes out,
 
 00:32:35.542 --> 00:32:36.442
 we're starting to look at
 
 00:32:36.482 --> 00:32:37.304
 the Chesapeake Leopard
 
 00:32:37.324 --> 00:32:39.865
 Affair from all over the
 
 00:32:39.884 --> 00:32:43.527
 country with their strong
 
 00:32:44.008 --> 00:32:46.169
 desire to defend the United
 
 00:32:46.189 --> 00:32:46.949
 States against British
 
 00:32:46.989 --> 00:32:48.809
 aggression and a lot of
 
 00:32:48.869 --> 00:32:49.590
 militia companies
 
 00:32:49.631 --> 00:32:51.511
 volunteering for service
 
 00:32:51.531 --> 00:32:52.392
 should they be needed.
 
 00:32:53.313 --> 00:32:54.753
 So that's the big theme of
 
 00:32:54.973 --> 00:32:55.713
 the volume fifty four that
 
 00:32:55.733 --> 00:32:56.535
 we're working on right now.
 
 00:32:58.019 --> 00:32:59.219
 One thing that I work on in
 
 00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:00.599
 particular that's read
 
 00:33:00.619 --> 00:33:02.039
 throughout the volumes is
 
 00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:04.880
 petitions for pardon to the president,
 
 00:33:06.441 --> 00:33:07.661
 which are really interesting,
 
 00:33:08.141 --> 00:33:09.421
 especially at that point in time,
 
 00:33:09.461 --> 00:33:11.201
 because in Washington, D.C.,
 
 00:33:11.362 --> 00:33:13.261
 every crime was essentially
 
 00:33:13.301 --> 00:33:14.041
 a federal crime.
 
 00:33:14.442 --> 00:33:15.281
 And so you have people who
 
 00:33:15.321 --> 00:33:17.363
 are imprisoned with a fine,
 
 00:33:17.502 --> 00:33:18.282
 but they don't have any way
 
 00:33:18.303 --> 00:33:19.042
 to pay the fine.
 
 00:33:19.063 --> 00:33:19.962
 So the only way to get out
 
 00:33:19.982 --> 00:33:21.423
 of prison is to write a
 
 00:33:21.443 --> 00:33:22.463
 letter to the president and
 
 00:33:22.483 --> 00:33:23.144
 ask for pardon.
 
 00:33:24.065 --> 00:33:25.567
 wow um so those are really
 
 00:33:25.606 --> 00:33:26.648
 fascinating to me and there
 
 00:33:26.689 --> 00:33:28.049
 are a few of those in all
 
 00:33:28.090 --> 00:33:28.932
 of the volumes that we're
 
 00:33:28.951 --> 00:33:31.535
 looking at it's interesting
 
 00:33:31.694 --> 00:33:32.896
 yeah I know john quincy
 
 00:33:32.977 --> 00:33:34.138
 adams is president in his
 
 00:33:34.179 --> 00:33:35.160
 diary he mentions the
 
 00:33:35.180 --> 00:33:36.121
 people who come to him
 
 00:33:36.141 --> 00:33:37.262
 because they need a handout
 
 00:33:37.363 --> 00:33:38.364
 or something so he's
 
 00:33:40.459 --> 00:33:43.721
 Um, Jefferson mentions those, uh, well, we,
 
 00:33:43.761 --> 00:33:44.923
 we do get a lot of letters
 
 00:33:45.083 --> 00:33:45.883
 asking for charitable
 
 00:33:45.903 --> 00:33:47.904
 contributions that he saved, um,
 
 00:33:47.944 --> 00:33:51.027
 people with, uh, stories of hardship or,
 
 00:33:51.827 --> 00:33:54.309
 um, people just asking for, you know,
 
 00:33:54.430 --> 00:33:55.230
 support to get their
 
 00:33:55.269 --> 00:33:57.432
 business up and running, uh,
 
 00:33:57.451 --> 00:33:58.313
 that are really interesting.
 
 00:33:58.353 --> 00:33:59.073
 And then you can see when
 
 00:33:59.113 --> 00:34:00.173
 they actually visited him
 
 00:34:00.193 --> 00:34:01.815
 because he'll record in his, um,
 
 00:34:02.096 --> 00:34:04.057
 memorandum books, uh,
 
 00:34:04.277 --> 00:34:05.417
 when he gave a charitable
 
 00:34:05.438 --> 00:34:07.179
 donation to different people.
 
 00:34:07.420 --> 00:34:09.101
 Yeah.
 
 00:34:09.496 --> 00:34:10.018
 Do you get a sense,
 
 00:34:10.077 --> 00:34:10.818
 is there a difference
 
 00:34:10.838 --> 00:34:12.280
 between when Jefferson is
 
 00:34:12.340 --> 00:34:13.541
 in Washington and when he's
 
 00:34:13.561 --> 00:34:14.422
 in Monticello?
 
 00:34:14.864 --> 00:34:16.485
 He said at one point in Monticello,
 
 00:34:16.505 --> 00:34:18.989
 he feels like a workhorse
 
 00:34:19.068 --> 00:34:20.751
 just constantly turning
 
 00:34:20.771 --> 00:34:22.132
 because he's constantly writing.
 
 00:34:22.152 --> 00:34:23.074
 It seems he says he does
 
 00:34:23.135 --> 00:34:24.155
 more writing there than he
 
 00:34:24.195 --> 00:34:25.016
 does in Washington.
 
 00:34:26.309 --> 00:34:26.951
 Yes, for sure,
 
 00:34:26.990 --> 00:34:28.570
 especially to his cabinet members.
 
 00:34:29.532 --> 00:34:30.532
 When he's in Washington,
 
 00:34:30.552 --> 00:34:31.753
 they have meetings with
 
 00:34:31.773 --> 00:34:32.934
 Gallatin and with Madison
 
 00:34:34.494 --> 00:34:36.795
 and his other secretaries.
 
 00:34:37.056 --> 00:34:38.317
 But when he's at Monticello,
 
 00:34:38.336 --> 00:34:39.637
 he has to do all of that by letters.
 
 00:34:39.978 --> 00:34:41.298
 So it's nice for us because
 
 00:34:41.318 --> 00:34:42.358
 we get a little bit more of
 
 00:34:42.619 --> 00:34:43.599
 detail into how they're
 
 00:34:43.619 --> 00:34:44.500
 interacting with each other
 
 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:45.880
 as parts of the cabinet.
 
 00:34:46.481 --> 00:34:48.922
 But it must have been a lot
 
 00:34:49.523 --> 00:34:50.443
 more work for him because
 
 00:34:50.463 --> 00:34:50.963
 he didn't have to
 
 00:34:51.003 --> 00:34:52.304
 constantly be writing to them.
 
 00:34:52.985 --> 00:34:54.344
 Especially if he was at
 
 00:34:54.385 --> 00:34:55.445
 Monticello when there was a
 
 00:34:55.485 --> 00:34:56.545
 big dramatic world event.
 
 00:34:56.585 --> 00:35:00.206
 It does give you an
 
 00:35:00.226 --> 00:35:01.487
 appreciation of the speed
 
 00:35:01.527 --> 00:35:03.108
 of communication and how
 
 00:35:03.168 --> 00:35:05.648
 long it took a letter to go from, say,
 
 00:35:05.688 --> 00:35:07.389
 Madison in Washington to
 
 00:35:07.469 --> 00:35:09.188
 Jefferson or Madison was at
 
 00:35:09.228 --> 00:35:11.170
 Montpelier or Gallatin was in Washington.
 
 00:35:11.836 --> 00:35:12.777
 the way they would have had
 
 00:35:12.797 --> 00:35:13.898
 to connect with each other
 
 00:35:14.117 --> 00:35:14.719
 through writing.
 
 00:35:14.778 --> 00:35:16.320
 It's not an easy thing.
 
 00:35:17.019 --> 00:35:19.282
 No, but it's speedy for the time.
 
 00:35:19.521 --> 00:35:19.681
 I mean,
 
 00:35:19.702 --> 00:35:21.402
 you can turn around in a couple of
 
 00:35:21.443 --> 00:35:24.284
 days for a lot of those letters.
 
 00:35:24.405 --> 00:35:25.686
 So they expected pretty
 
 00:35:25.746 --> 00:35:27.447
 rapid responses for that.
 
 00:35:28.291 --> 00:35:30.092
 Yeah.
 
 00:35:30.132 --> 00:35:30.974
 So we've been talking with
 
 00:35:31.014 --> 00:35:31.894
 Christina Carrick,
 
 00:35:31.914 --> 00:35:33.295
 who is an assistant editor
 
 00:35:33.335 --> 00:35:34.958
 of the papers of Thomas Jefferson,
 
 00:35:35.038 --> 00:35:37.960
 and she served as an editor on volumes,
 
 00:35:38.041 --> 00:35:39.862
 forty five, forty six, forty seven,
 
 00:35:40.123 --> 00:35:41.143
 forty and then forty eight
 
 00:35:41.164 --> 00:35:42.284
 through fifty three, I guess,
 
 00:35:42.344 --> 00:35:43.166
 are in the works.
 
 00:35:43.987 --> 00:35:45.108
 And also you've been an
 
 00:35:45.168 --> 00:35:47.090
 editor of the papers of Robert Paine,
 
 00:35:47.130 --> 00:35:49.132
 published by the Mass Historical Society.
 
 00:35:49.894 --> 00:35:51.838
 and working on the loyalist networks.
 
 00:35:51.878 --> 00:35:52.420
 Christina, I mean,
 
 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:53.201
 we've covered a lot of
 
 00:35:53.240 --> 00:35:54.463
 ground from the loyalist
 
 00:35:54.583 --> 00:35:55.505
 time of the revolution to
 
 00:35:55.525 --> 00:35:56.726
 the Jefferson administration.
 
 00:35:56.766 --> 00:35:57.648
 Is there anything else we
 
 00:35:57.668 --> 00:35:58.309
 should talk about?
 
 00:35:59.425 --> 00:36:00.007
 Oh, goodness.
 
 00:36:00.686 --> 00:36:01.987
 I do feel like I wear many
 
 00:36:02.047 --> 00:36:03.009
 hats when I'm researching,
 
 00:36:03.168 --> 00:36:05.510
 but they are all connected in ways.
 
 00:36:07.351 --> 00:36:07.972
 Especially,
 
 00:36:08.672 --> 00:36:09.693
 we mentioned earlier with
 
 00:36:09.773 --> 00:36:11.235
 George Irving and the
 
 00:36:11.275 --> 00:36:12.856
 Jefferson councils abroad,
 
 00:36:12.896 --> 00:36:14.117
 it's nice that I can kind
 
 00:36:14.137 --> 00:36:14.998
 of come full circle to
 
 00:36:15.217 --> 00:36:16.139
 having people who are
 
 00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:17.340
 connected to these exiled
 
 00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:18.860
 loyalists now serving the
 
 00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:19.922
 Jefferson administration.
 
 00:36:20.282 --> 00:36:21.143
 So I feel like, in a way,
 
 00:36:21.202 --> 00:36:22.344
 my research and my career
 
 00:36:22.364 --> 00:36:23.704
 has come full circle by
 
 00:36:23.744 --> 00:36:24.545
 connecting those two.
 
 00:36:24.625 --> 00:36:27.547
 That's great.
 
 00:36:27.628 --> 00:36:28.909
 Is there anything else you would like to
 
 00:36:29.615 --> 00:36:29.695
 Well,
 
 00:36:29.715 --> 00:36:31.097
 I wonder if you have any advice to
 
 00:36:31.237 --> 00:36:32.177
 anyone who wanted to get
 
 00:36:32.237 --> 00:36:35.278
 into documentary editing.
 
 00:36:35.358 --> 00:36:35.778
 Well, first,
 
 00:36:35.838 --> 00:36:36.559
 I would recommend that you
 
 00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:37.840
 visit the Association for
 
 00:36:37.900 --> 00:36:39.320
 Documentary Editing website,
 
 00:36:41.442 --> 00:36:43.603
 which not to be confused
 
 00:36:43.623 --> 00:36:44.762
 with the Association for
 
 00:36:45.264 --> 00:36:46.985
 the Alliance for Documentary Editors,
 
 00:36:47.045 --> 00:36:48.045
 which is movies.
 
 00:36:50.206 --> 00:36:51.266
 And you can see the variety
 
 00:36:51.306 --> 00:36:52.706
 of different projects that we have.
 
 00:36:52.766 --> 00:36:52.967
 But
 
 00:36:54.769 --> 00:36:55.311
 allies,
 
 00:36:57.393 --> 00:36:59.193
 the different allied projects are
 
 00:36:59.233 --> 00:36:59.614
 going on.
 
 00:37:00.195 --> 00:37:01.456
 Documentary editing is by
 
 00:37:01.516 --> 00:37:03.639
 nature a very collaborative enterprise.
 
 00:37:03.978 --> 00:37:05.000
 So we interact with each
 
 00:37:05.059 --> 00:37:07.021
 other across projects quite often,
 
 00:37:07.521 --> 00:37:08.684
 share research and care
 
 00:37:08.724 --> 00:37:09.824
 resources that we're using.
 
 00:37:10.324 --> 00:37:11.326
 And it's really great to
 
 00:37:11.385 --> 00:37:12.086
 work with all of these
 
 00:37:12.126 --> 00:37:13.407
 other editors on projects
 
 00:37:13.427 --> 00:37:15.789
 in the country that connect to ours.
 
 00:37:17.471 --> 00:37:17.592
 Now,
 
 00:37:17.652 --> 00:37:18.913
 I would say if anyone wants to be a
 
 00:37:18.952 --> 00:37:19.813
 documentary editor,
 
 00:37:20.094 --> 00:37:21.355
 start volunteering to
 
 00:37:21.394 --> 00:37:22.275
 transcribe and reading
 
 00:37:22.295 --> 00:37:23.376
 those original courses
 
 00:37:23.556 --> 00:37:24.797
 because practice with
 
 00:37:25.018 --> 00:37:27.981
 handwriting is most essential.
 
 00:37:30.041 --> 00:37:31.023
 And really getting to know
 
 00:37:31.163 --> 00:37:32.585
 each person that we're
 
 00:37:32.644 --> 00:37:35.407
 working on and the nuances and little...
 
 00:37:37.548 --> 00:37:38.489
 different elements of their
 
 00:37:38.509 --> 00:37:39.750
 handwriting that might help
 
 00:37:40.210 --> 00:37:41.550
 you in particular.
 
 00:37:42.789 --> 00:37:44.791
 And then also we have the
 
 00:37:44.831 --> 00:37:45.951
 opportunity to do like
 
 00:37:46.070 --> 00:37:47.490
 really in-depth research on
 
 00:37:47.610 --> 00:37:48.911
 individual people within
 
 00:37:48.931 --> 00:37:50.231
 these papers that I think
 
 00:37:51.092 --> 00:37:52.072
 when they might be
 
 00:37:52.112 --> 00:37:53.253
 mentioned in broader
 
 00:37:53.313 --> 00:37:55.713
 monographs might not get that same,
 
 00:37:55.773 --> 00:37:57.873
 like we try to identify
 
 00:37:57.994 --> 00:37:59.673
 every person who wrote to
 
 00:37:59.813 --> 00:38:00.634
 or received a letter from
 
 00:38:00.673 --> 00:38:02.514
 Thomas Jefferson.
 
 00:38:04.373 --> 00:38:06.353
 I hope that that can be of
 
 00:38:06.494 --> 00:38:08.855
 use in adding these people
 
 00:38:08.894 --> 00:38:09.996
 to the historical record
 
 00:38:10.235 --> 00:38:12.317
 and in helping people who
 
 00:38:12.376 --> 00:38:13.516
 are writing the monographs
 
 00:38:14.036 --> 00:38:15.838
 that often use our editions.
 
 00:38:16.398 --> 00:38:21.240
 And so I'm very happy to be
 
 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:22.081
 working in documentary
 
 00:38:22.161 --> 00:38:25.722
 editing and I would
 
 00:38:25.762 --> 00:38:29.043
 encourage other scholars to look into it.
 
 00:38:30.181 --> 00:38:30.362
 Well,
 
 00:38:30.402 --> 00:38:32.284
 what you do is really invaluable to
 
 00:38:33.103 --> 00:38:34.224
 the scholarly world and the
 
 00:38:34.264 --> 00:38:34.945
 general public.
 
 00:38:34.985 --> 00:38:35.744
 I know a lot has been
 
 00:38:35.784 --> 00:38:37.045
 digitized and then put on
 
 00:38:37.085 --> 00:38:40.867
 the Founders Online source.
 
 00:38:42.009 --> 00:38:43.289
 The National Archives, I know,
 
 00:38:43.349 --> 00:38:44.329
 has a project.
 
 00:38:44.349 --> 00:38:45.510
 They're looking for civilian
 
 00:38:45.550 --> 00:38:47.411
 volunteers to transcribe things.
 
 00:38:47.452 --> 00:38:48.911
 And here in Boston,
 
 00:38:48.931 --> 00:38:50.393
 the Congregational Library
 
 00:38:50.432 --> 00:38:51.733
 has a big project on the
 
 00:38:51.753 --> 00:38:53.175
 hidden histories of New England.
 
 00:38:53.195 --> 00:38:54.215
 They're looking for people
 
 00:38:54.235 --> 00:38:55.255
 to help transcribing
 
 00:38:55.916 --> 00:38:56.976
 a lot of great church
 
 00:38:57.036 --> 00:38:58.496
 records and so there are
 
 00:38:58.516 --> 00:38:59.458
 really many great
 
 00:38:59.498 --> 00:39:00.557
 opportunities for people
 
 00:39:00.577 --> 00:39:01.978
 who want to get into this
 
 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:04.619
 get your um and learn this
 
 00:39:04.659 --> 00:39:06.820
 handwritten the uh american
 
 00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:08.081
 philosophical society I
 
 00:39:08.101 --> 00:39:08.902
 know is doing a
 
 00:39:08.942 --> 00:39:09.621
 transcribing the
 
 00:39:09.661 --> 00:39:11.882
 revolutionary city project
 
 00:39:11.922 --> 00:39:13.143
 that is also bringing in
 
 00:39:13.543 --> 00:39:14.563
 you know citizen
 
 00:39:14.603 --> 00:39:15.704
 transcribers to help with
 
 00:39:15.744 --> 00:39:19.887
 this work um and I'm sure
 
 00:39:19.907 --> 00:39:21.728
 there are others too but
 
 00:39:22.994 --> 00:39:23.594
 It's really great.
 
 00:39:23.614 --> 00:39:24.396
 It's great to hear that it's
 
 00:39:24.416 --> 00:39:25.715
 a collaborative enterprise too,
 
 00:39:25.775 --> 00:39:27.197
 that you're,
 
 00:39:27.217 --> 00:39:28.538
 because you're doing Jefferson, I mean,
 
 00:39:28.577 --> 00:39:28.958
 you're, you're,
 
 00:39:29.018 --> 00:39:30.358
 you're not the anti Hamilton,
 
 00:39:30.418 --> 00:39:31.559
 but you're all working
 
 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:32.880
 together to just trying to
 
 00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:33.900
 figure out what happened.
 
 00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:34.139
 Yeah.
 
 00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:36.501
 Yeah.
 
 00:39:36.601 --> 00:39:38.442
 So, so thank you so much, Christina.
 
 00:39:38.461 --> 00:39:40.103
 We've been talking with Christina Carrick,
 
 00:39:40.282 --> 00:39:41.804
 who is an assistant editor
 
 00:39:41.844 --> 00:39:43.304
 at the papers of Thomas Jefferson.
 
 00:39:43.445 --> 00:39:44.045
 And as she said,
 
 00:39:44.085 --> 00:39:45.405
 wears many other hats in
 
 00:39:45.445 --> 00:39:47.146
 the world of scholarship.
 
 00:39:47.166 --> 00:39:48.487
 So thank you so much for joining us.
 
 00:39:48.507 --> 00:39:49.487
 Thank you for having me.
 
 00:39:49.507 --> 00:39:50.768
 It's been a pleasure.
 
 00:39:52.045 --> 00:39:53.545
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:39:53.686 --> 00:39:55.507
 our tireless executive
 
 00:39:55.547 --> 00:39:57.469
 director of Revolution Two-Fifty,
 
 00:39:57.608 --> 00:39:58.570
 and also thank our
 
 00:39:59.030 --> 00:40:01.152
 listeners who tune in regularly.
 
 00:40:01.172 --> 00:40:02.632
 You know, every week we thank some.
 
 00:40:02.672 --> 00:40:04.114
 And if you're in one of these places,
 
 00:40:04.715 --> 00:40:05.896
 send Jonathan an email,
 
 00:40:06.215 --> 00:40:08.958
 jlane at revolution two-fifty dot org,
 
 00:40:09.579 --> 00:40:10.679
 and he will send you some
 
 00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:12.360
 Revolution Two-Fifty swag.
 
 00:40:12.561 --> 00:40:14.262
 And if you just want to connect with us,
 
 00:40:14.282 --> 00:40:14.983
 send us an email.
 
 00:40:15.023 --> 00:40:16.103
 We love hearing from people.
 
 00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:17.440
 And this week,
 
 00:40:17.539 --> 00:40:18.260
 I want to thank our
 
 00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:20.081
 listeners in the great city
 
 00:40:20.121 --> 00:40:22.583
 of Philadelphia and here in
 
 00:40:22.623 --> 00:40:23.822
 the Bay State at East East
 
 00:40:23.882 --> 00:40:26.403
 Falmouth on Cape Cod, Casa Grande,
 
00:40:26.463 --> 00:40:28.684
 Arizona, Las Cruces, New Mexico,
 
00:40:29.206 --> 00:40:30.766
 Edinburgh in Scotland,
 
 00:40:30.826 --> 00:40:33.387
 Burlington in Vermont, Katy, Texas,
 
 00:40:34.168 --> 00:40:35.427
 home of a great pitcher,
 
 00:40:35.688 --> 00:40:37.469
 Goffstown in New Hampshire,
 
 00:40:37.608 --> 00:40:39.909
 Acapulco in Mexico, and Kelvin Grove,
 
 00:40:39.949 --> 00:40:40.590
 Australia,
 
 00:40:40.771 --> 00:40:42.351
 and all places between and beyond.
 
 00:40:42.371 --> 00:40:43.331
 Thanks for joining us.
 
 00:40:43.351 --> 00:40:44.913
 And now we'll be piped out
 
 00:40:44.952 --> 00:40:45.833
 on the road to Boston.