The Revolutionary World of Jacob Francis with Larry Kidder

After a stint in the Navy and forty years teaching history, Larry Kidder was curios about the lives of ordinary people in Hunterdon County, New Jersey.  He could not find a good book on the subject, so he started writing , and how he has told stories of the Revolution from the vantage point of New Jersey's militia. On Christmas Eve he joins us to share the epic story of General Washington crossing the Delaware, and  introduces us to the Revolutionary World of Jacob Francis, a Free Black man from New Jersey who, as a "Massachusetts" soldier, participated inn the crossing.  Larry Kidder tells us of Jacob Francis and other stories from New Jersey in the Revolution's ten crucial days--from the Delaware crossing to the Battle of Princeton. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:01.137 --> 00:00:01.879
 Hello, everyone.
 
 00:00:01.959 --> 00:00:04.480
 Welcome to the Revolution to the podcast.
 
 00:00:04.602 --> 00:00:05.982
 I am Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:06.062 --> 00:00:07.424
 I teach history at Suffolk
 
 00:00:07.485 --> 00:00:08.906
 University and also chair
 
 00:00:08.926 --> 00:00:10.928
 the Revolution to the advisory group.
 
 00:00:11.368 --> 00:00:12.570
 We are a consortium of
 
 00:00:12.650 --> 00:00:13.711
 seventy five or so
 
 00:00:13.750 --> 00:00:14.551
 organizations in
 
 00:00:14.592 --> 00:00:15.653
 Massachusetts planning
 
 00:00:15.692 --> 00:00:17.655
 commemorations of American independence.
 
 00:00:18.175 --> 00:00:19.637
 And our guest today is
 
 00:00:21.054 --> 00:00:22.117
 William Larry Kidder.
 
 00:00:22.297 --> 00:00:23.980
 Larry Kidder is an historian.
 
 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:24.942
 Actually,
 
 00:00:25.082 --> 00:00:27.306
 he taught for about forty years
 
 00:00:27.466 --> 00:00:28.827
 in schools in New Jersey,
 
 00:00:28.867 --> 00:00:29.949
 including thirty two years
 
 00:00:29.969 --> 00:00:31.432
 at the Hun School in Princeton.
 
 00:00:32.774 --> 00:00:34.575
 And about ten, twelve years ago,
 
 00:00:34.634 --> 00:00:35.875
 he started writing books
 
 00:00:35.936 --> 00:00:36.896
 because he thought,
 
 00:00:36.936 --> 00:00:37.677
 here's something I think
 
 00:00:37.737 --> 00:00:38.798
 someone should write a book about.
 
 00:00:38.857 --> 00:00:40.460
 So he started writing about
 
 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:42.341
 things happening in New Jersey,
 
 00:00:42.401 --> 00:00:43.981
 farming and militia troops
 
 00:00:44.021 --> 00:00:45.563
 in Pleasant Valley, New Jersey.
 
 00:00:45.603 --> 00:00:46.444
 He's written a number of
 
 00:00:46.503 --> 00:00:47.524
 really good books.
 
 00:00:47.825 --> 00:00:48.686
 The Crossroads of the
 
 00:00:48.725 --> 00:00:50.426
 Revolution on Trenton from
 
 00:00:50.466 --> 00:00:51.667
 seventeen seventy four to
 
 00:00:51.707 --> 00:00:52.808
 seventeen eighty three.
 
 00:00:53.488 --> 00:00:54.990
 A book about Jacob Francis,
 
 00:00:55.009 --> 00:00:56.530
 who is a free black man who
 
 00:00:56.591 --> 00:00:58.512
 was in the New Jersey troops.
 
 00:00:58.533 --> 00:00:59.353
 He was at the Siege of
 
 00:00:59.393 --> 00:01:00.514
 Boston as well as at the
 
 00:01:00.554 --> 00:01:01.554
 Battle of Trenton.
 
 00:01:02.865 --> 00:01:04.325
 The Revolutionary Princeton,
 
 00:01:04.346 --> 00:01:05.227
 the biography of an
 
 00:01:05.246 --> 00:01:07.647
 American town in the heart of a civil war,
 
 00:01:07.667 --> 00:01:09.287
 again, focusing on the revolution.
 
 00:01:09.746 --> 00:01:11.248
 His second book was on the
 
 00:01:11.308 --> 00:01:13.147
 New Jersey militia regiment.
 
 00:01:13.168 --> 00:01:13.367
 I mean,
 
 00:01:13.388 --> 00:01:14.587
 we can spend the rest of the half
 
 00:01:14.628 --> 00:01:15.587
 hour talking about the
 
 00:01:15.608 --> 00:01:16.688
 books you've written, Larry.
 
 00:01:16.989 --> 00:01:18.409
 Your new one is on Fort Stanwix.
 
 00:01:18.429 --> 00:01:19.349
 You've gotten out of New
 
 00:01:19.388 --> 00:01:21.409
 Jersey to write about something else.
 
 00:01:21.429 --> 00:01:22.349
 What drew you to the story
 
 00:01:22.370 --> 00:01:23.370
 of Fort Stanwix?
 
 00:01:25.469 --> 00:01:26.109
 A number of things,
 
 00:01:26.549 --> 00:01:27.409
 aside from the fact that
 
 00:01:27.450 --> 00:01:28.650
 it's a fascinating story
 
 00:01:29.350 --> 00:01:30.611
 and I like the Mohawk Valley.
 
 00:01:35.305 --> 00:01:36.245
 york continental line who
 
 00:01:36.265 --> 00:01:37.825
 was in the garrison during
 
 00:01:37.865 --> 00:01:39.546
 the siege I wanted to know
 
 00:01:39.585 --> 00:01:41.605
 more about his life he was
 
 00:01:42.025 --> 00:01:44.427
 unusual in a way because he
 
 00:01:44.486 --> 00:01:46.066
 never applied for a pension
 
 00:01:46.326 --> 00:01:47.667
 after the war he lived to
 
 00:01:47.686 --> 00:01:51.888
 be almost a hundred well in
 
 00:01:51.947 --> 00:01:52.748
 the time period that he
 
 00:01:52.768 --> 00:01:53.808
 could have applied for one
 
 00:01:54.649 --> 00:01:55.668
 and didn't do a lot of
 
 00:01:55.709 --> 00:01:56.769
 writing or anything like
 
 00:01:56.789 --> 00:02:00.090
 that so I basically wanted to find out um
 
 00:02:00.730 --> 00:02:01.671
 what he experienced.
 
 00:02:01.691 --> 00:02:03.712
 And so I had to look at the whole seed,
 
 00:02:03.753 --> 00:02:04.873
 not just his writings or
 
 00:02:04.914 --> 00:02:06.454
 anything like that.
 
 00:02:06.534 --> 00:02:07.034
 Interesting.
 
 00:02:07.394 --> 00:02:08.735
 So it goes beyond your
 
 00:02:08.795 --> 00:02:10.197
 ancestor's story to tell.
 
 00:02:10.296 --> 00:02:10.896
 Oh, definitely.
 
 00:02:11.016 --> 00:02:11.497
 Definitely.
 
 00:02:11.578 --> 00:02:11.837
 Yeah.
 
 00:02:11.897 --> 00:02:12.018
 Yeah.
 
 00:02:12.038 --> 00:02:14.319
 I can't really, I mean, well,
 
 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:16.520
 my book on Jacob Francis is entitled,
 
 00:02:16.540 --> 00:02:17.040
 you know,
 
 00:02:17.100 --> 00:02:19.263
 the revolutionary world of a
 
 00:02:19.362 --> 00:02:20.163
 free black man.
 
 00:02:20.443 --> 00:02:22.063
 It's not the biography of
 
 00:02:22.123 --> 00:02:24.205
 Jacob Francis because
 
 00:02:25.667 --> 00:02:26.847
 although he did apply for a
 
 00:02:26.927 --> 00:02:29.229
 pension and there are a lot of his words,
 
 00:02:30.033 --> 00:02:32.716
 And mostly I was having to
 
 00:02:32.756 --> 00:02:34.736
 deal from documents that
 
 00:02:35.637 --> 00:02:36.877
 were not all that personal.
 
 00:02:37.117 --> 00:02:39.259
 They shed light on his experiences.
 
 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:42.161
 But so I wanted to find out
 
 00:02:42.181 --> 00:02:42.942
 about the world that he
 
 00:02:43.002 --> 00:02:45.323
 lived in and how he
 
 00:02:45.362 --> 00:02:46.623
 experienced it and how he
 
 00:02:47.465 --> 00:02:48.465
 in some ways changed it.
 
 00:02:49.765 --> 00:02:51.086
 So it's a fascinating story.
 
 00:02:51.347 --> 00:02:52.448
 It's a fascinating because
 
 00:02:52.487 --> 00:02:53.669
 he does live from the
 
 00:02:53.688 --> 00:02:55.008
 seventeen fifties into the
 
 00:02:55.088 --> 00:02:55.889
 eighteen thirties.
 
 00:02:55.949 --> 00:02:57.691
 So it's a long period.
 
 00:02:58.031 --> 00:02:59.032
 He lived into his eighties.
 
 00:02:59.092 --> 00:02:59.252
 Yeah.
 
 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.561
 So what's his life like after the war?
 
 00:03:02.640 --> 00:03:04.842
 Or what's the world like in New Jersey?
 
 00:03:04.883 --> 00:03:07.943
 Jacob Francis, after the war, he well,
 
 00:03:08.104 --> 00:03:08.884
 let's put it this way.
 
 00:03:09.625 --> 00:03:13.788
 He enlisted in October of
 
 00:03:13.828 --> 00:03:16.408
 seventeen seventy five at
 
 00:03:16.449 --> 00:03:17.569
 the time when George
 
 00:03:17.610 --> 00:03:19.191
 Washington was saying no
 
 00:03:19.211 --> 00:03:20.371
 blacks in the army.
 
 00:03:21.231 --> 00:03:23.112
 But he he he was at that
 
 00:03:23.173 --> 00:03:24.713
 point not living in New Jersey.
 
 00:03:24.753 --> 00:03:26.193
 He was living in Massachusetts.
 
 00:03:26.213 --> 00:03:27.175
 He was living in Salem.
 
 00:03:28.486 --> 00:03:30.128
 And he had been an indentured servant.
 
 00:03:30.169 --> 00:03:31.689
 His free mother had
 
 00:03:31.789 --> 00:03:35.072
 indentured him out until age twenty one.
 
 00:03:36.013 --> 00:03:36.913
 And he had gone through
 
 00:03:37.013 --> 00:03:40.515
 several owners of his time, not yet,
 
 00:03:40.536 --> 00:03:42.616
 but his time as an indentured servant.
 
 00:03:43.777 --> 00:03:46.759
 And the last man who owned
 
 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:48.961
 the last six plus years of
 
 00:03:49.021 --> 00:03:52.403
 his time lived in Salem.
 
 00:03:52.544 --> 00:03:53.764
 He was living in Salem as
 
 00:03:53.805 --> 00:03:54.985
 the revolution was getting.
 
 00:03:56.328 --> 00:03:57.929
 Where was he from originally?
 
 00:03:58.430 --> 00:04:00.230
 He was originally from central New Jersey.
 
 00:04:00.251 --> 00:04:01.330
 Okay.
 
 00:04:01.371 --> 00:04:01.691
 Wow.
 
 00:04:01.771 --> 00:04:02.231
 Interesting.
 
 00:04:04.092 --> 00:04:05.674
 And in Hunterdon County,
 
 00:04:05.713 --> 00:04:07.014
 if you know where that is, Fullington,
 
 00:04:07.055 --> 00:04:08.575
 New Jersey area.
 
 00:04:09.536 --> 00:04:14.399
 And he served through the
 
 00:04:14.859 --> 00:04:15.659
 Battle of Trenton.
 
 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:17.461
 And as you know,
 
 00:04:17.500 --> 00:04:18.721
 George Washington's army
 
 00:04:18.781 --> 00:04:21.882
 was dissolving around that
 
 00:04:21.903 --> 00:04:22.824
 time because the
 
 00:04:23.516 --> 00:04:24.617
 Second establishment of the
 
 00:04:24.637 --> 00:04:25.517
 Continental Army
 
 00:04:25.858 --> 00:04:27.379
 enlistments were their one
 
 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:29.540
 year enlistments at that time.
 
 00:04:29.781 --> 00:04:31.002
 And Jacob was one of those.
 
 00:04:33.163 --> 00:04:37.187
 And he did not respond to
 
 00:04:37.247 --> 00:04:38.708
 Washington's request to
 
 00:04:38.908 --> 00:04:41.891
 reenlist or extend his enlistment,
 
 00:04:42.651 --> 00:04:44.692
 primarily because he hadn't
 
 00:04:44.713 --> 00:04:47.274
 seen his mother for over a decade.
 
 00:04:47.954 --> 00:04:49.516
 because being moved around
 
 00:04:49.576 --> 00:04:50.795
 as an indentured servant,
 
 00:04:51.776 --> 00:04:52.637
 they were not literate,
 
 00:04:52.656 --> 00:04:53.637
 so they hadn't exchanged
 
 00:04:53.718 --> 00:04:55.218
 letters or anything like that.
 
 00:04:56.158 --> 00:04:57.839
 So he wanted to,
 
 00:04:57.879 --> 00:04:59.641
 he also didn't know his last name.
 
 00:05:01.742 --> 00:05:03.141
 He was in the American army
 
 00:05:03.281 --> 00:05:06.303
 as Jacob Gulick, not Jacob Francis.
 
 00:05:06.783 --> 00:05:07.985
 He adopted the name of one
 
 00:05:08.004 --> 00:05:10.466
 of the men who owned his indenture time.
 
 00:05:11.726 --> 00:05:14.447
 And so he hadn't been paid
 
 00:05:14.487 --> 00:05:15.807
 for seven and a half months.
 
 00:05:15.848 --> 00:05:16.629
 He'd been through the
 
 00:05:17.247 --> 00:05:18.687
 uh siege of boston and the
 
 00:05:18.708 --> 00:05:20.088
 whole new york campaign and
 
 00:05:20.168 --> 00:05:21.348
 all of that he was a
 
 00:05:21.428 --> 00:05:24.930
 survivor you know and had
 
 00:05:24.970 --> 00:05:27.769
 done fine but he really
 
 00:05:28.790 --> 00:05:29.971
 wanted to find mom and find
 
 00:05:30.011 --> 00:05:32.471
 out his name so he did not
 
 00:05:32.511 --> 00:05:35.732
 uh re-enlist he did then he
 
 00:05:35.791 --> 00:05:36.612
 only had to travel about
 
 00:05:36.672 --> 00:05:38.812
 fifteen miles from trent to
 
 00:05:38.833 --> 00:05:40.793
 get to home and he found
 
 00:05:40.833 --> 00:05:42.992
 his mother still alive wow
 
 00:05:43.093 --> 00:05:45.514
 not well and also and and
 
 00:05:46.166 --> 00:05:48.148
 kind of took care of her and
 
 00:05:48.627 --> 00:05:50.309
 uh through the rest of the
 
 00:05:50.348 --> 00:05:52.771
 war he uh was in the new
 
 00:05:52.810 --> 00:05:55.552
 jersey militia he was one
 
 00:05:55.572 --> 00:05:56.793
 of the few black men in new
 
 00:05:56.833 --> 00:05:58.613
 jersey who got around the
 
 00:05:58.673 --> 00:05:59.774
 rule that blacks were not
 
 00:05:59.814 --> 00:06:01.855
 supposed to own land and he
 
 00:06:01.875 --> 00:06:03.175
 had a small farm for a
 
 00:06:03.235 --> 00:06:05.016
 while although that
 
 00:06:05.396 --> 00:06:06.598
 struggled because of the
 
 00:06:07.017 --> 00:06:08.639
 overall economic problems
 
 00:06:08.699 --> 00:06:10.160
 right a lot of farmers were
 
 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:14.322
 losing their land but he um he persisted
 
 00:06:16.041 --> 00:06:19.742
 And about seventeen eighty nine,
 
 00:06:19.882 --> 00:06:21.043
 he decided to get married.
 
 00:06:22.283 --> 00:06:23.963
 He's already thirty five
 
 00:06:23.983 --> 00:06:25.423
 years old at that point.
 
 00:06:26.283 --> 00:06:27.624
 And he marries a woman
 
 00:06:27.663 --> 00:06:29.245
 twelve years younger than
 
 00:06:29.305 --> 00:06:30.944
 him who was enslaved.
 
 00:06:31.665 --> 00:06:33.185
 So the free man who married
 
 00:06:33.225 --> 00:06:34.146
 an enslaved woman,
 
 00:06:35.505 --> 00:06:37.447
 her owner sold her to Jacob
 
 00:06:37.547 --> 00:06:38.387
 on their wedding day.
 
 00:06:38.846 --> 00:06:40.687
 Well,
 
 00:06:40.747 --> 00:06:42.867
 he did not just free her and allow
 
 00:06:42.908 --> 00:06:44.367
 her to marry a free man.
 
 00:06:44.951 --> 00:06:46.492
 because in new jersey law if
 
 00:06:46.533 --> 00:06:47.973
 he freed her he would be
 
 00:06:48.033 --> 00:06:49.235
 responsible for her
 
 00:06:49.435 --> 00:06:51.076
 economics the rest of her
 
 00:06:51.137 --> 00:06:52.838
 life by selling her to
 
 00:06:52.898 --> 00:06:54.098
 jacob jacob became
 
 00:06:56.261 --> 00:06:58.423
 responsible responsible for
 
 00:06:58.463 --> 00:06:59.884
 her upkeep and everything
 
 00:06:59.903 --> 00:07:02.146
 he had about six uh
 
 00:07:02.225 --> 00:07:04.387
 children wow and he
 
 00:07:04.466 --> 00:07:07.149
 eventually owned a uh by
 
 00:07:07.189 --> 00:07:09.110
 about eighteen oh one he
 
 00:07:09.250 --> 00:07:10.672
 owned a hundred and fifteen
 
 00:07:10.752 --> 00:07:12.874
 acre farm uh just outside
 
 00:07:12.894 --> 00:07:14.095
 of flemington new jersey
 
 00:07:15.478 --> 00:07:19.283
 And he and his wife moved
 
 00:07:19.423 --> 00:07:21.345
 off that farm when their
 
 00:07:21.384 --> 00:07:22.867
 oldest boys got old enough
 
 00:07:23.166 --> 00:07:24.007
 to take care of it.
 
 00:07:24.627 --> 00:07:25.649
 And they moved into the
 
 00:07:25.749 --> 00:07:27.932
 small town at that time of Flemington.
 
 00:07:29.072 --> 00:07:30.334
 And they lived right in the
 
 00:07:30.353 --> 00:07:31.154
 heart of the town.
 
 00:07:32.055 --> 00:07:33.357
 They were the only Black people.
 
 00:07:35.632 --> 00:07:36.252
 had a house.
 
 00:07:37.333 --> 00:07:38.553
 There were black people living there,
 
 00:07:38.593 --> 00:07:38.994
 obviously,
 
 00:07:39.033 --> 00:07:40.415
 but they were working for somebody.
 
 00:07:40.435 --> 00:07:42.055
 They were in an attic
 
 00:07:42.096 --> 00:07:42.896
 somewhere or in an
 
 00:07:43.036 --> 00:07:45.076
 outbuilding or something like that.
 
 00:07:45.117 --> 00:07:47.699
 But he actually rented a
 
 00:07:47.738 --> 00:07:49.360
 house from the local
 
 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:51.480
 Baptist church right on the
 
 00:07:51.540 --> 00:07:53.641
 main street in Flemington.
 
 00:07:54.923 --> 00:07:56.223
 And he became very well
 
 00:07:56.264 --> 00:07:57.805
 known in the town and his
 
 00:07:57.845 --> 00:07:59.225
 wife became very well known.
 
 00:08:00.365 --> 00:08:01.586
 And they lived there the
 
 00:08:01.627 --> 00:08:02.646
 rest of their lives.
 
 00:08:04.788 --> 00:08:05.348
 They actually
 
 00:08:07.045 --> 00:08:08.545
 by eighteen twenty nine,
 
 00:08:08.685 --> 00:08:09.987
 they purchased a house,
 
 00:08:10.867 --> 00:08:11.968
 not just rented a house.
 
 00:08:12.649 --> 00:08:13.569
 And it was right across the
 
 00:08:13.629 --> 00:08:15.250
 street from where they had rented.
 
 00:08:16.190 --> 00:08:17.692
 And they obviously purchased
 
 00:08:17.733 --> 00:08:19.713
 it from a white man and a
 
 00:08:19.774 --> 00:08:20.694
 white neighborhood.
 
 00:08:21.214 --> 00:08:22.836
 There was a lawyer on one side,
 
 00:08:22.875 --> 00:08:23.317
 for example.
 
 00:08:24.437 --> 00:08:26.117
 But they they were very well
 
 00:08:26.699 --> 00:08:28.899
 respected in their community,
 
 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:32.062
 which was a little unusual at that time.
 
 00:08:33.224 --> 00:08:36.586
 And one of the things that they did
 
 00:08:37.629 --> 00:08:39.009
 There was a private school
 
 00:08:39.049 --> 00:08:40.750
 for white kids across the
 
 00:08:40.811 --> 00:08:42.392
 street from the house that
 
 00:08:42.432 --> 00:08:43.751
 they had rented and just
 
 00:08:44.033 --> 00:08:45.854
 two houses down from the
 
 00:08:45.894 --> 00:08:46.874
 house that they bought.
 
 00:08:48.315 --> 00:08:49.895
 I think that they somehow
 
 00:08:51.476 --> 00:08:52.677
 got together with the
 
 00:08:52.836 --> 00:08:56.479
 teachers or the principal or whatever,
 
 00:08:57.419 --> 00:09:00.221
 and by making sure that the
 
 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:02.842
 kids and their families got
 
 00:09:02.923 --> 00:09:04.082
 homemade root beer and
 
 00:09:04.123 --> 00:09:06.865
 ginger cakes and other things,
 
 00:09:07.865 --> 00:09:09.466
 um I think they talked those
 
 00:09:09.505 --> 00:09:10.866
 seasons into teaching their
 
 00:09:10.886 --> 00:09:11.826
 kids on the side
 
 00:09:12.287 --> 00:09:14.008
 interesting and most of her
 
 00:09:14.048 --> 00:09:15.489
 kids there's evidence that
 
 00:09:15.528 --> 00:09:16.750
 they could write their name
 
 00:09:16.850 --> 00:09:20.711
 at least uh and one of his
 
 00:09:21.011 --> 00:09:23.993
 sons his youngest son abner
 
 00:09:24.774 --> 00:09:26.313
 he actually grew up and
 
 00:09:26.374 --> 00:09:27.955
 became an abolitionist
 
 00:09:29.076 --> 00:09:29.875
 worked with frederick
 
 00:09:29.895 --> 00:09:32.037
 douglas actually writing
 
 00:09:32.076 --> 00:09:33.258
 for frederick douglas's
 
 00:09:33.317 --> 00:09:35.499
 newspaper wow and serving
 
 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:37.279
 as secretary for
 
 00:09:38.514 --> 00:09:40.894
 uh meetings uh yeah
 
 00:09:41.735 --> 00:09:43.135
 conferences of the the
 
 00:09:43.196 --> 00:09:44.495
 abolitionists and all that
 
 00:09:44.576 --> 00:09:46.096
 in several different states
 
 00:09:46.897 --> 00:09:48.136
 so he was obviously very
 
 00:09:48.177 --> 00:09:50.258
 well educated and uh you
 
 00:09:50.278 --> 00:09:52.859
 know became quite well
 
 00:09:52.918 --> 00:09:55.318
 known um particularly out
 
 00:09:55.359 --> 00:09:56.899
 on the west coast because
 
 00:09:56.940 --> 00:09:58.299
 he moved out there and
 
 00:09:58.780 --> 00:10:00.860
 helped washington and uh
 
 00:10:01.321 --> 00:10:02.942
 california and oregon uh
 
 00:10:03.501 --> 00:10:04.581
 break the color barrier
 
 00:10:06.903 --> 00:10:08.322
 It's a fascinating family story.
 
 00:10:08.844 --> 00:10:09.563
 It really is.
 
 00:10:09.604 --> 00:10:10.943
 We're talking with Larry Kidder,
 
 00:10:11.605 --> 00:10:13.105
 author of many books.
 
 00:10:13.144 --> 00:10:14.265
 He's just been telling us a
 
 00:10:14.285 --> 00:10:15.505
 bit about the revolutionary
 
 00:10:15.566 --> 00:10:18.466
 world of a free black man, Jacob Francis,
 
 00:10:28.787 --> 00:10:31.268
 and then with the movement
 
 00:10:31.388 --> 00:10:33.048
 against to keep slavery out
 
 00:10:33.089 --> 00:10:34.309
 of California and then to
 
 00:10:34.330 --> 00:10:35.470
 break the color barrier on
 
 00:10:35.509 --> 00:10:36.429
 the West Coast.
 
 00:10:37.110 --> 00:10:38.150
 Again, these things,
 
 00:10:38.932 --> 00:10:41.293
 they're closer in time than we imagine.
 
 00:10:41.332 --> 00:10:44.234
 Now, how did you find the story?
 
 00:10:44.374 --> 00:10:46.075
 How did you find out about Jacob Francis?
 
 00:10:46.514 --> 00:10:46.774
 Well,
 
 00:10:46.955 --> 00:10:49.155
 Jacob Francis is one of those
 
 00:10:49.696 --> 00:10:52.476
 situations where you just
 
 00:10:52.538 --> 00:10:55.099
 stumble on him because you
 
 00:10:55.139 --> 00:10:56.339
 mentioned I wrote a book
 
 00:10:56.379 --> 00:10:58.000
 about the New Jersey militia.
 
 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:00.941
 people harassed and exhausted.
 
 00:11:01.801 --> 00:11:03.620
 And I was dealing with one regiment,
 
 00:11:04.821 --> 00:11:05.682
 the first regiment,
 
 00:11:05.902 --> 00:11:07.241
 there were four regiments
 
 00:11:07.282 --> 00:11:08.442
 in the state of New Jersey,
 
 00:11:09.623 --> 00:11:10.942
 Hunterdon County, New Jersey.
 
 00:11:12.082 --> 00:11:14.504
 And the first regiment dealt
 
 00:11:14.524 --> 00:11:16.964
 with men or had men from Trenton,
 
 00:11:17.924 --> 00:11:21.504
 the township of Hopewell, Lawrenceville,
 
 00:11:21.664 --> 00:11:22.686
 today's Lawrenceville.
 
 00:11:23.826 --> 00:11:26.966
 And I was researching them.
 
 00:11:27.027 --> 00:11:28.287
 Now, as I'm going through
 
 00:11:28.854 --> 00:11:30.495
 the musters and things like that.
 
 00:11:31.274 --> 00:11:33.296
 I'm trying to identify men
 
 00:11:33.355 --> 00:11:34.956
 who have interesting stories.
 
 00:11:36.035 --> 00:11:38.716
 And long story short,
 
 00:11:38.777 --> 00:11:39.977
 the New Jersey militia
 
 00:11:40.138 --> 00:11:42.298
 during the war got really messed up.
 
 00:11:43.158 --> 00:11:44.658
 And a lot of different units
 
 00:11:44.719 --> 00:11:46.399
 combined at different times,
 
 00:11:46.419 --> 00:11:47.299
 because they didn't want to
 
 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:49.201
 take the same men away from home.
 
 00:11:49.841 --> 00:11:51.682
 You know, at the time,
 
 00:11:51.902 --> 00:11:54.403
 and just leave no workers in an area,
 
 00:11:54.743 --> 00:11:55.582
 because the militia was all
 
 00:11:55.623 --> 00:11:56.623
 done geographically.
 
 00:11:57.703 --> 00:11:58.124
 And so
 
 00:11:59.149 --> 00:12:00.912
 jacob wound up on a muster
 
 00:12:00.951 --> 00:12:04.153
 roll for the group I was
 
 00:12:04.193 --> 00:12:08.758
 looking at just one and
 
 00:12:08.778 --> 00:12:09.798
 then when I found his
 
 00:12:09.938 --> 00:12:12.000
 pension file I found out
 
 00:12:12.041 --> 00:12:13.621
 that he was not really
 
 00:12:13.761 --> 00:12:16.884
 living in the area that my
 
 00:12:16.924 --> 00:12:18.586
 guys were so he didn't
 
 00:12:18.625 --> 00:12:20.267
 really fit into that story
 
 00:12:20.287 --> 00:12:21.948
 that I was telling but it
 
 00:12:21.969 --> 00:12:23.149
 was such a fascinating
 
 00:12:23.250 --> 00:12:25.792
 story and one that i
 
 00:12:28.006 --> 00:12:30.567
 Well, I enjoy getting into black history,
 
 00:12:30.628 --> 00:12:31.509
 enjoy getting into Native
 
 00:12:31.568 --> 00:12:34.070
 American history, enjoy, you know,
 
 00:12:34.129 --> 00:12:35.169
 I'm more of a social
 
 00:12:35.210 --> 00:12:38.331
 historian than a military historian.
 
 00:12:39.351 --> 00:12:42.974
 And it just stayed in my mind.
 
 00:12:43.053 --> 00:12:44.153
 I've got to do something with Jacob.
 
 00:12:44.214 --> 00:12:45.294
 I got to do something with Jacob.
 
 00:12:46.436 --> 00:12:48.535
 And then several friends of
 
 00:12:48.576 --> 00:12:49.756
 mine who live in the area
 
 00:12:49.996 --> 00:12:51.597
 wrote a book about their
 
 00:12:51.957 --> 00:12:53.818
 ancestors and a community
 
 00:12:54.818 --> 00:12:56.059
 very close to me here.
 
 00:12:56.932 --> 00:12:58.533
 And they're Black,
 
 00:12:58.552 --> 00:12:59.673
 and they were interested in
 
 00:12:59.693 --> 00:13:01.155
 the Black settlement there.
 
 00:13:02.817 --> 00:13:05.458
 And they wrote a book called
 
 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:06.980
 If These Stones Could Talk.
 
 00:13:08.381 --> 00:13:10.023
 And by talking to
 
 00:13:10.062 --> 00:13:11.504
 descendants and getting
 
 00:13:11.543 --> 00:13:12.804
 documents wherever they could,
 
 00:13:12.845 --> 00:13:14.166
 they told a fascinating
 
 00:13:14.206 --> 00:13:15.868
 story of this growth of
 
 00:13:15.888 --> 00:13:16.827
 this Black community.
 
 00:13:18.129 --> 00:13:19.951
 And as I was doing Jacob,
 
 00:13:20.091 --> 00:13:23.913
 as I was researching Jacob Francis,
 
 00:13:25.184 --> 00:13:26.245
 because I had been doing
 
 00:13:26.264 --> 00:13:28.285
 that on and off ever since I found him.
 
 00:13:29.366 --> 00:13:30.647
 I decided I said, Yeah,
 
 00:13:30.667 --> 00:13:32.327
 I wonder if I can find where he's buried.
 
 00:13:33.988 --> 00:13:36.889
 He died in Flemington was a
 
 00:13:36.948 --> 00:13:37.830
 member of the Baptist
 
 00:13:37.870 --> 00:13:39.590
 Church and they have a cemetery there.
 
 00:13:40.671 --> 00:13:43.672
 So at first I said it won't
 
 00:13:43.692 --> 00:13:45.192
 do any good for me to look for him.
 
 00:13:45.912 --> 00:13:47.033
 They won't have parked or
 
 00:13:47.052 --> 00:13:47.972
 anything like that.
 
 00:13:47.993 --> 00:13:49.673
 He's probably on the outskirts of it,
 
 00:13:49.754 --> 00:13:52.315
 you know, kind of thing.
 
 00:13:52.394 --> 00:13:52.595
 So
 
 00:13:53.576 --> 00:13:54.716
 One time I was in Flemington.
 
 00:13:54.777 --> 00:13:56.177
 I said, let me just take a look.
 
 00:13:57.359 --> 00:13:59.700
 And I went into the cemetery.
 
 00:13:59.740 --> 00:14:00.620
 I looked all around,
 
 00:14:01.380 --> 00:14:04.803
 didn't find anything until the very end.
 
 00:14:06.004 --> 00:14:09.726
 And there was a driveway
 
 00:14:09.826 --> 00:14:11.827
 into the parking lot behind
 
 00:14:11.868 --> 00:14:13.489
 the church and next to the cemetery.
 
 00:14:14.889 --> 00:14:15.931
 And as I walked back to the
 
 00:14:15.971 --> 00:14:17.792
 parking lot there to that driveway,
 
 00:14:18.572 --> 00:14:21.514
 I came up behind two
 
 00:14:21.554 --> 00:14:23.275
 tombstones that were obviously old.
 
 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:26.400
 the top and by golly,
 
 00:14:26.421 --> 00:14:29.543
 there was Jacob and there was his wife.
 
 00:14:30.203 --> 00:14:32.927
 And I can tell you at that point,
 
 00:14:33.988 --> 00:14:35.389
 I was so shocked and so
 
 00:14:35.908 --> 00:14:37.029
 glad to find them.
 
 00:14:37.850 --> 00:14:38.370
 I just said,
 
 00:14:38.611 --> 00:14:39.972
 these stones have got to talk.
 
 00:14:42.835 --> 00:14:44.636
 And so I really got serious
 
 00:14:44.697 --> 00:14:46.518
 about doing the book at that point.
 
 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:49.541
 Well, thank you for doing it.
 
 00:14:51.522 --> 00:14:53.303
 So we're talking with Larry Kidder.
 
 00:14:53.910 --> 00:14:56.373
 historian and I think we
 
 00:14:56.533 --> 00:14:57.714
 actually asked you on to
 
 00:14:57.734 --> 00:14:59.414
 talk about washington's ten
 
 00:14:59.455 --> 00:15:00.716
 crucial days which is
 
 00:15:00.735 --> 00:15:01.976
 another of your books about
 
 00:15:02.378 --> 00:15:03.698
 the new jersey campaign so
 
 00:15:03.719 --> 00:15:05.639
 yeah well jacob was there
 
 00:15:05.659 --> 00:15:07.221
 uh yeah I'm actually giving
 
 00:15:07.260 --> 00:15:08.662
 a talk in a couple of days
 
 00:15:08.783 --> 00:15:10.543
 to local people about the
 
 00:15:10.583 --> 00:15:11.684
 battle trends since we're
 
 00:15:11.705 --> 00:15:13.005
 at the anniversary of it
 
 00:15:13.586 --> 00:15:15.587
 and the talk is going to focus on
 
 00:15:16.265 --> 00:15:18.606
 Jacob Francis's experiences
 
 00:15:18.706 --> 00:15:19.528
 at the Battle of Trenton
 
 00:15:19.587 --> 00:15:20.847
 and how his experiences
 
 00:15:21.327 --> 00:15:23.589
 helped tell the story in a new,
 
 00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:25.409
 different way.
 
 00:15:25.429 --> 00:15:26.711
 So what were his experiences
 
 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:27.750
 at the Battle of Trenton?
 
 00:15:27.770 --> 00:15:29.471
 We do know Washington's perspective,
 
 00:15:29.511 --> 00:15:30.753
 Knox's perspective.
 
 00:15:31.232 --> 00:15:32.673
 So what's the perspective of
 
 00:15:32.714 --> 00:15:34.914
 Jacob Francis on this episode?
 
 00:15:35.375 --> 00:15:35.534
 Well,
 
 00:15:35.575 --> 00:15:37.936
 Jacob Francis was in a Massachusetts
 
 00:15:37.975 --> 00:15:39.917
 regiment, the Sixteenth Massachusetts,
 
 00:15:41.136 --> 00:15:41.738
 which was
 
 00:15:43.606 --> 00:15:45.768
 one of the regiments that
 
 00:15:45.807 --> 00:15:47.769
 had gotten late to
 
 00:15:48.369 --> 00:15:50.250
 Pennsylvania under General
 
 00:15:50.289 --> 00:15:52.250
 Lee and General Sullivan.
 
 00:15:53.572 --> 00:15:54.732
 So they'd only arrived
 
 00:15:55.452 --> 00:15:56.092
 essentially where
 
 00:15:56.153 --> 00:15:57.494
 Washington crossed about
 
 00:15:57.594 --> 00:15:58.595
 December twentieth.
 
 00:15:59.754 --> 00:16:02.015
 Washington had been there since, you know,
 
 00:16:02.035 --> 00:16:03.037
 he'd been there the whole month.
 
 00:16:04.378 --> 00:16:08.178
 And so they were in General
 
 00:16:08.219 --> 00:16:09.460
 Sullivan's division.
 
 00:16:10.220 --> 00:16:12.922
 And if you know, when Washington crossed,
 
 00:16:12.961 --> 00:16:13.282
 he had
 
 00:16:14.567 --> 00:16:16.309
 cross he had divided his men
 
 00:16:16.330 --> 00:16:17.551
 into two divisions one
 
 00:16:17.571 --> 00:16:18.812
 under general green and one
 
 00:16:18.851 --> 00:16:19.873
 under general sullivan
 
 00:16:21.854 --> 00:16:22.875
 green crossed first
 
 00:16:23.215 --> 00:16:26.197
 sullivan crossed second and
 
 00:16:26.457 --> 00:16:28.220
 actually jacob's regiment
 
 00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:29.780
 was one of the last to
 
 00:16:29.821 --> 00:16:30.902
 cross at washington's
 
 00:16:30.961 --> 00:16:32.744
 crossing but then they
 
 00:16:32.803 --> 00:16:34.245
 marched you know the nine
 
 00:16:34.845 --> 00:16:36.066
 nine miles roughly to
 
 00:16:36.125 --> 00:16:38.708
 trenton and about halfway
 
 00:16:38.749 --> 00:16:40.230
 they split into two groups
 
 00:16:41.823 --> 00:16:43.563
 one group with General Green's group,
 
 00:16:43.583 --> 00:16:44.825
 the other General Sullivan's.
 
 00:16:45.605 --> 00:16:46.164
 And so of course,
 
 00:16:46.184 --> 00:16:48.284
 Jacob was with General Sullivan,
 
 00:16:48.804 --> 00:16:51.505
 they marched down closer to the river,
 
 00:16:51.666 --> 00:16:52.586
 not really at the river,
 
 00:16:52.605 --> 00:16:53.645
 but close to the river,
 
 00:16:55.346 --> 00:16:56.947
 and getting to sort of the
 
 00:16:57.006 --> 00:16:58.966
 south part of Trenton,
 
 00:16:59.346 --> 00:17:02.227
 whereas General Green went inland more,
 
 00:17:02.827 --> 00:17:04.788
 and was going to attack from the north.
 
 00:17:05.988 --> 00:17:07.308
 Washington was with green.
 
 00:17:08.269 --> 00:17:08.449
 So
 
 00:17:10.326 --> 00:17:12.127
 Jacob with Sullivan came
 
 00:17:12.147 --> 00:17:13.650
 into Trenton at the southern end.
 
 00:17:13.670 --> 00:17:17.712
 If any viewers know Trenton
 
 00:17:17.732 --> 00:17:18.532
 and you know where the old
 
 00:17:18.553 --> 00:17:19.693
 barracks are that were
 
 00:17:19.733 --> 00:17:20.835
 there during the Revolution,
 
 00:17:20.894 --> 00:17:22.797
 that's not where they came into town,
 
 00:17:23.436 --> 00:17:24.317
 at the old barracks in
 
 00:17:24.357 --> 00:17:25.659
 what's today State Street.
 
 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:28.661
 And Jacob talks about this
 
 00:17:28.820 --> 00:17:30.582
 in his pension file.
 
 00:17:31.363 --> 00:17:33.104
 And he says, you know,
 
 00:17:33.124 --> 00:17:36.446
 we marched and we got to a corner
 
 00:17:37.865 --> 00:17:39.944
 And looking up the street,
 
 00:17:40.326 --> 00:17:42.006
 we could see the battle going on.
 
 00:17:42.726 --> 00:17:44.405
 And Washington was trying to
 
 00:17:44.445 --> 00:17:45.487
 head in our direction.
 
 00:17:46.307 --> 00:17:48.007
 Well, that's today's Warren Street.
 
 00:17:48.227 --> 00:17:50.067
 That was King Street back then.
 
 00:17:51.667 --> 00:17:52.708
 And at that point,
 
 00:17:53.907 --> 00:17:55.429
 Colonel Rall up in Trenton
 
 00:17:56.888 --> 00:17:59.788
 was in contact with two of
 
 00:17:59.828 --> 00:18:01.569
 his regiments with the Americans.
 
 00:18:02.369 --> 00:18:03.710
 And then the Third Hessian
 
 00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:05.750
 Regiment was closer down to
 
 00:18:05.770 --> 00:18:07.371
 where Jacob's group was.
 
 00:18:08.490 --> 00:18:10.651
 So Washington and Greene and all,
 
 00:18:10.691 --> 00:18:13.573
 they eventually defeated
 
 00:18:13.772 --> 00:18:15.534
 Colonel Rall and his two regiments.
 
 00:18:16.653 --> 00:18:18.055
 And that freed up men to
 
 00:18:18.095 --> 00:18:19.276
 come down and help out
 
 00:18:19.556 --> 00:18:22.176
 Sullivan with the Kniefhausen regiment,
 
 00:18:22.538 --> 00:18:26.160
 which was the one down by the river.
 
 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:29.661
 So Jacob talks about their
 
 00:18:30.142 --> 00:18:31.402
 route that they took
 
 00:18:31.422 --> 00:18:33.784
 through Trenton across the
 
 00:18:33.864 --> 00:18:34.763
 Assen Pink Creek,
 
 00:18:34.923 --> 00:18:36.884
 if that's a creek familiar to you.
 
 00:18:37.885 --> 00:18:38.066
 And
 
 00:18:38.423 --> 00:18:39.003
 From there,
 
 00:18:39.683 --> 00:18:41.345
 they had the Kniefhausen
 
 00:18:41.365 --> 00:18:42.904
 regiment basically surrounded.
 
 00:18:43.845 --> 00:18:46.346
 And so Jacob comments about how he saw,
 
 00:18:46.566 --> 00:18:48.567
 he observed the Hessians
 
 00:18:48.646 --> 00:18:49.886
 just across the creek from
 
 00:18:49.946 --> 00:18:55.068
 him put down their arms and surrender.
 
 00:18:55.288 --> 00:18:58.088
 And at that point then, he says,
 
 00:18:58.710 --> 00:19:00.609
 once they had the Hessians captured,
 
 00:19:02.810 --> 00:19:04.131
 Washington didn't want to
 
 00:19:04.191 --> 00:19:07.832
 just capture Trenton or attack
 
 00:19:11.932 --> 00:19:13.153
 That whole retreat across
 
 00:19:13.213 --> 00:19:15.615
 New Jersey in November and December.
 
 00:19:16.837 --> 00:19:20.020
 And so Jacob says he was one
 
 00:19:20.060 --> 00:19:23.144
 of the men selected to go a
 
 00:19:23.183 --> 00:19:24.286
 little bit south of where
 
 00:19:24.326 --> 00:19:25.527
 they were to where the
 
 00:19:25.727 --> 00:19:27.189
 ferry crossing was to
 
 00:19:27.788 --> 00:19:30.833
 Pennsylvania and get the
 
 00:19:30.952 --> 00:19:32.894
 Hessians across to Pennsylvania.
 
 00:19:33.598 --> 00:19:34.199
 Well,
 
 00:19:34.219 --> 00:19:36.180
 that wasn't going to work because if
 
 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:37.960
 you know the story of the crossing,
 
 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:38.141
 you know,
 
 00:19:38.560 --> 00:19:39.881
 there were Americans that were
 
 00:19:39.901 --> 00:19:41.102
 supposed to cross at
 
 00:19:41.142 --> 00:19:43.082
 Trenton and they never got
 
 00:19:43.122 --> 00:19:44.583
 across because of the ice.
 
 00:19:46.542 --> 00:19:46.782
 Well,
 
 00:19:47.384 --> 00:19:48.663
 now they've got to go the other way
 
 00:19:48.703 --> 00:19:51.224
 over the same ice packs to
 
 00:19:51.265 --> 00:19:52.505
 get the British over there
 
 00:19:52.664 --> 00:19:53.746
 or the Hessians over there.
 
 00:19:54.605 --> 00:19:56.125
 And according to Jacob,
 
 00:19:56.205 --> 00:19:57.586
 they did get some across.
 
 00:19:58.707 --> 00:20:00.667
 And I keep looking for good
 
 00:20:00.769 --> 00:20:02.269
 confirmation of the
 
 00:20:02.470 --> 00:20:03.609
 documents and everything.
 
 00:20:04.611 --> 00:20:06.592
 But obviously,
 
 00:20:06.612 --> 00:20:07.752
 I didn't get everybody across.
 
 00:20:08.733 --> 00:20:11.454
 But he then talks about
 
 00:20:12.316 --> 00:20:13.155
 getting together with
 
 00:20:13.217 --> 00:20:14.517
 Washington's army once they
 
 00:20:14.537 --> 00:20:15.637
 got crossed back to
 
 00:20:15.698 --> 00:20:17.920
 Pennsylvania and then
 
 00:20:17.980 --> 00:20:20.000
 coming back with Washington to Trenton.
 
 00:20:20.941 --> 00:20:22.362
 And then just before the
 
 00:20:22.782 --> 00:20:24.223
 second battle at Trenton or
 
 00:20:24.243 --> 00:20:26.404
 the Ass in Pink Creek on January second,
 
 00:20:27.188 --> 00:20:30.949
 His time was up and he, like I say,
 
 00:20:30.989 --> 00:20:31.828
 did not extend.
 
 00:20:31.969 --> 00:20:33.650
 So he was discharged.
 
 00:20:34.730 --> 00:20:36.710
 Now, that's an interesting discharge.
 
 00:20:37.931 --> 00:20:40.010
 Because here he is, a free black man.
 
 00:20:41.731 --> 00:20:43.372
 They discharged him verbally,
 
 00:20:44.451 --> 00:20:45.413
 not on paper.
 
 00:20:46.813 --> 00:20:48.733
 They told him he'd have to go to Peekskill,
 
 00:20:48.773 --> 00:20:51.173
 New York at some point in
 
 00:20:51.213 --> 00:20:54.095
 order to get a written discharge.
 
 00:20:55.116 --> 00:20:56.438
 They also told him he had to
 
 00:20:56.458 --> 00:20:58.518
 go there to get his last
 
 00:20:59.298 --> 00:21:00.398
 three or four month pay
 
 00:21:00.419 --> 00:21:01.440
 that they still owed him.
 
 00:21:03.361 --> 00:21:05.381
 So here's this free black man.
 
 00:21:06.642 --> 00:21:08.042
 Yes, he was born in that area,
 
 00:21:08.063 --> 00:21:10.042
 but he hadn't been there for ten,
 
 00:21:10.182 --> 00:21:10.963
 twelve years.
 
 00:21:12.044 --> 00:21:13.164
 And he's an adult now.
 
 00:21:13.525 --> 00:21:15.086
 He's in a very ragged
 
 00:21:15.365 --> 00:21:17.046
 Continental Army uniform.
 
 00:21:18.186 --> 00:21:19.146
 And it's January.
 
 00:21:19.627 --> 00:21:20.708
 And it's January.
 
 00:21:21.708 --> 00:21:22.669
 And it's
 
 00:21:23.387 --> 00:21:25.328
 he has nothing to prove that
 
 00:21:25.368 --> 00:21:28.131
 he isn't a deserter and of
 
 00:21:28.171 --> 00:21:29.531
 course he's a black man so
 
 00:21:29.592 --> 00:21:30.412
 what's the first thing
 
 00:21:30.451 --> 00:21:32.492
 people are gonna assume
 
 00:21:32.512 --> 00:21:33.493
 with him he's either a
 
 00:21:33.614 --> 00:21:36.155
 runaway slave right or he's
 
 00:21:36.316 --> 00:21:37.717
 a deserter from the army
 
 00:21:39.297 --> 00:21:40.157
 but he's not gonna
 
 00:21:40.778 --> 00:21:42.778
 necessarily have an easy
 
 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:44.661
 time finding mom well
 
 00:21:44.681 --> 00:21:46.301
 apparently you know she was
 
 00:21:46.321 --> 00:21:47.481
 still living in the area
 
 00:21:47.501 --> 00:21:48.423
 where he was born
 
 00:21:49.262 --> 00:21:51.825
 apparently he ran into enough people who
 
 00:21:52.739 --> 00:21:55.720
 he could identify with and say, Hey,
 
 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.539
 I'm Jacob, you know, when I was a kid,
 
 00:21:58.579 --> 00:22:00.200
 you know, and that kind of thing.
 
 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.221
 So he was able to, like I say,
 
 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:05.340
 get back to mom and almost
 
 00:22:05.401 --> 00:22:07.321
 immediately sign up for the
 
 00:22:07.342 --> 00:22:08.422
 New Jersey militia.
 
 00:22:09.902 --> 00:22:12.262
 And he served very strongly
 
 00:22:12.303 --> 00:22:13.603
 in the New Jersey militia.
 
 00:22:14.163 --> 00:22:15.502
 He was actually captured by
 
 00:22:15.563 --> 00:22:16.923
 some Hessians outside of
 
 00:22:16.983 --> 00:22:18.124
 Newark at one point.
 
 00:22:23.969 --> 00:22:25.409
 very intelligent and very
 
 00:22:25.429 --> 00:22:27.730
 capable he was able to get
 
 00:22:27.750 --> 00:22:29.930
 away from him and get back
 
 00:22:29.970 --> 00:22:31.971
 to his unit but he made a
 
 00:22:31.990 --> 00:22:34.070
 lot of friends in the new
 
 00:22:34.111 --> 00:22:35.872
 jersey militia I mean here
 
 00:22:35.912 --> 00:22:37.971
 he is he's he's a real
 
 00:22:37.991 --> 00:22:39.913
 veteran yeah yeah yeah
 
 00:22:39.972 --> 00:22:40.893
 fourteen months in the
 
 00:22:40.932 --> 00:22:42.673
 continental army in the
 
 00:22:42.692 --> 00:22:44.074
 various campaigns that he
 
 00:22:44.094 --> 00:22:46.213
 was in um he had some
 
 00:22:46.273 --> 00:22:48.234
 skills some military skills
 
 00:22:49.615 --> 00:22:53.276
 and I think the other the white men um
 
 00:22:54.365 --> 00:22:56.546
 you know, valued that, you know,
 
 00:22:56.726 --> 00:22:57.826
 in their unit.
 
 00:22:57.926 --> 00:23:00.567
 And also I have to say that
 
 00:23:00.627 --> 00:23:02.169
 I think Jacob Francis had,
 
 00:23:02.449 --> 00:23:03.809
 was a man of personality.
 
 00:23:03.829 --> 00:23:06.411
 Um,
 
 00:23:06.471 --> 00:23:08.251
 he didn't let the fact that he was
 
 00:23:08.291 --> 00:23:09.451
 black and there were all
 
 00:23:09.491 --> 00:23:10.512
 kinds of restrictions
 
 00:23:10.553 --> 00:23:12.814
 against him and he should
 
 00:23:12.854 --> 00:23:15.535
 be careful if he ran into strangers,
 
 00:23:15.575 --> 00:23:16.855
 you know, and that kind of thing.
 
 00:23:17.336 --> 00:23:21.018
 Uh, he seems to have, uh,
 
 00:23:22.201 --> 00:23:24.044
 gotten close to a number of people,
 
 00:23:25.484 --> 00:23:26.786
 whites as well as blacks.
 
 00:23:28.067 --> 00:23:29.448
 And actually,
 
 00:23:29.488 --> 00:23:30.909
 when he applied for his
 
 00:23:30.969 --> 00:23:34.451
 pension and identified as a
 
 00:23:34.511 --> 00:23:36.834
 black man in the pension application,
 
 00:23:37.894 --> 00:23:40.076
 he had four or five white
 
 00:23:40.096 --> 00:23:41.597
 guys who had served with
 
 00:23:41.638 --> 00:23:42.719
 him in the militia,
 
 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:45.000
 not in the Continentals,
 
 00:23:45.481 --> 00:23:47.042
 because they were all Massachusetts guys.
 
 00:23:47.063 --> 00:23:48.223
 He's a New Jersey guy.
 
 00:23:49.045 --> 00:23:49.744
 But they put in
 
 00:23:51.565 --> 00:23:53.204
 statements about him, you know,
 
 00:23:53.224 --> 00:23:56.006
 to at least back up his New
 
 00:23:56.046 --> 00:23:58.186
 Jersey militia service and
 
 00:23:58.227 --> 00:23:59.807
 just back him up as a
 
 00:24:00.146 --> 00:24:02.468
 veteran and a respected veteran.
 
 00:24:04.448 --> 00:24:06.449
 And even even in his
 
 00:24:06.509 --> 00:24:08.189
 obituary in eighteen thirty two,
 
 00:24:09.128 --> 00:24:10.549
 which was done by a white man,
 
 00:24:10.970 --> 00:24:12.430
 the editor of the local
 
 00:24:12.490 --> 00:24:14.269
 newspaper in Flemington,
 
 00:24:15.310 --> 00:24:17.490
 he actually wrote his
 
 00:24:17.611 --> 00:24:21.011
 longest death notice about a man
 
 00:24:21.633 --> 00:24:22.854
 that he wrote that whole year.
 
 00:24:22.933 --> 00:24:23.854
 It was about Jacob.
 
 00:24:24.493 --> 00:24:25.714
 And he mentioned Jacob's
 
 00:24:25.875 --> 00:24:26.875
 service in both the
 
 00:24:26.914 --> 00:24:28.195
 Continental Army and the
 
 00:24:28.215 --> 00:24:30.037
 militia and how his
 
 00:24:30.217 --> 00:24:31.897
 officers had such respect
 
 00:24:31.917 --> 00:24:34.159
 for him and whatnot.
 
 00:24:34.219 --> 00:24:35.259
 And then he closed it by
 
 00:24:35.338 --> 00:24:38.320
 saying he passes with the
 
 00:24:38.361 --> 00:24:39.601
 respect of everybody.
 
 00:24:40.382 --> 00:24:40.981
 It's amazing.
 
 00:24:41.501 --> 00:24:43.702
 Yeah, it is very amazing at that time.
 
 00:24:43.762 --> 00:24:47.105
 Have you found any descendants?
 
 00:24:48.605 --> 00:24:48.744
 No.
 
 00:24:50.346 --> 00:24:51.646
 that I I keep hoping
 
 00:24:51.686 --> 00:24:52.448
 somebody's going to come
 
 00:24:52.528 --> 00:24:54.508
 out woodwork I did a lot of
 
 00:24:54.528 --> 00:24:56.888
 uh chasing down his
 
 00:24:57.068 --> 00:24:58.328
 children grandchildren et
 
 00:24:58.348 --> 00:24:59.888
 cetera but I ran into dead
 
 00:24:59.969 --> 00:25:02.049
 ends everywhere so that
 
 00:25:02.089 --> 00:25:03.730
 there's nobody right now
 
 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:05.871
 alive you know that I can
 
 00:25:05.931 --> 00:25:07.651
 identify but one of my
 
 00:25:07.691 --> 00:25:08.770
 hopes in writing the book
 
 00:25:08.851 --> 00:25:11.132
 was that someone was aware
 
 00:25:11.912 --> 00:25:13.932
 and we could uh you know
 
 00:25:13.992 --> 00:25:14.613
 help them out yeah
 
 00:25:16.560 --> 00:25:17.883
 We're talking with Larry Kidder,
 
 00:25:17.942 --> 00:25:19.584
 who is an historian,
 
 00:25:19.723 --> 00:25:21.164
 author of a number of books,
 
 00:25:21.204 --> 00:25:23.166
 primarily on New Jersey and
 
 00:25:23.207 --> 00:25:26.190
 the Revolution, also about lichen.
 
 00:25:26.789 --> 00:25:27.151
 As you said,
 
 00:25:27.171 --> 00:25:28.912
 you're not really a military historian.
 
 00:25:28.932 --> 00:25:30.212
 You're a social historian.
 
 00:25:31.773 --> 00:25:32.355
 Also,
 
 00:25:32.555 --> 00:25:34.517
 a lot of historians talk about farming.
 
 00:25:34.537 --> 00:25:36.198
 You mentioned Jacob having a farm.
 
 00:25:36.298 --> 00:25:36.979
 They don't have any real
 
 00:25:37.019 --> 00:25:37.960
 experience with it,
 
 00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:40.922
 but you have become part of
 
 00:25:41.123 --> 00:25:43.384
 a farm community in New Jersey.
 
 00:25:44.840 --> 00:25:46.082
 driving teams of horses and
 
 00:25:46.122 --> 00:25:46.862
 doing other things.
 
 00:25:46.882 --> 00:25:47.682
 Can you tell us a bit about
 
 00:25:47.721 --> 00:25:48.563
 that living history
 
 00:25:48.603 --> 00:25:49.542
 experience you've had?
 
 00:25:50.163 --> 00:25:51.864
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:25:52.324 --> 00:25:52.443
 Yeah,
 
 00:25:52.463 --> 00:25:54.744
 I'm a volunteer and have been for
 
 00:25:54.924 --> 00:25:56.286
 over thirty five years now
 
 00:25:57.185 --> 00:25:59.708
 at a site called Howell
 
 00:25:59.948 --> 00:26:02.429
 Living History Farm in Hopewell,
 
 00:26:02.608 --> 00:26:03.229
 New Jersey.
 
 00:26:04.369 --> 00:26:06.971
 It's a county public park,
 
 00:26:07.931 --> 00:26:09.192
 but it has been a farm
 
 00:26:09.251 --> 00:26:10.832
 since before the Revolution.
 
 00:26:12.592 --> 00:26:14.633
 It goes back to about
 
 00:26:14.673 --> 00:26:16.054
 seventeen thirty or so.
 
 00:26:17.354 --> 00:26:20.935
 And it represents or it
 
 00:26:20.996 --> 00:26:22.435
 tries to show farming in
 
 00:26:22.455 --> 00:26:23.696
 the eighteen ninety to
 
 00:26:23.737 --> 00:26:26.077
 nineteen ten period, not the revolution.
 
 00:26:26.357 --> 00:26:26.938
 Right.
 
 00:26:26.958 --> 00:26:28.499
 The farm goes back that far.
 
 00:26:28.999 --> 00:26:30.259
 But the lady who donated it
 
 00:26:30.298 --> 00:26:31.619
 to the county wanted it to
 
 00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:32.980
 be that time period because
 
 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.701
 that was her childhood.
 
 00:26:34.721 --> 00:26:35.862
 OK.
 
 00:26:35.902 --> 00:26:38.502
 Wanted the farm to represent showing.
 
 00:26:39.530 --> 00:26:40.951
 kids in the future to
 
 00:26:41.031 --> 00:26:42.071
 understand what her life
 
 00:26:42.092 --> 00:26:43.853
 had been like as a kid.
 
 00:26:44.952 --> 00:26:47.374
 And so they use horses.
 
 00:26:47.433 --> 00:26:49.654
 We have seven Belgian
 
 00:26:49.755 --> 00:26:51.296
 Percheron type draft horses.
 
 00:26:52.896 --> 00:26:56.637
 And when I first got help out at the farm,
 
 00:26:56.678 --> 00:26:58.598
 which actually I got in
 
 00:26:58.638 --> 00:27:00.019
 touch with them through my teaching,
 
 00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:01.759
 I brought classes out there
 
 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:03.201
 and taught about the farm
 
 00:27:03.221 --> 00:27:04.781
 at that time and allowed
 
 00:27:04.801 --> 00:27:06.241
 them to get some hands on
 
 00:27:06.301 --> 00:27:08.042
 experiences and things like that.
 
 00:27:09.141 --> 00:27:10.602
 But my real interest in the
 
 00:27:10.622 --> 00:27:12.182
 farm was helping it
 
 00:27:12.222 --> 00:27:14.983
 understand the history of that property.
 
 00:27:16.605 --> 00:27:17.625
 When I first got started,
 
 00:27:17.645 --> 00:27:18.465
 it had only been open to
 
 00:27:18.486 --> 00:27:19.926
 the public for a couple of years.
 
 00:27:20.807 --> 00:27:22.769
 And they were still learning
 
 00:27:22.808 --> 00:27:23.949
 about the property.
 
 00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:25.930
 So I was doing a lot of
 
 00:27:25.970 --> 00:27:27.030
 research for them that way.
 
 00:27:27.050 --> 00:27:28.372
 That's why I wrote several
 
 00:27:28.412 --> 00:27:31.133
 books about that area, about farming.
 
 00:27:32.314 --> 00:27:33.534
 And it was actually through
 
 00:27:33.575 --> 00:27:35.194
 that that I got involved in
 
 00:27:35.214 --> 00:27:35.935
 the revolution.
 
 00:27:36.635 --> 00:27:38.037
 That may sound weird.
 
 00:27:38.856 --> 00:27:40.877
 But because we had draft horses,
 
 00:27:42.298 --> 00:27:45.559
 local Revolutionary War reenactors,
 
 00:27:46.099 --> 00:27:47.839
 particularly an artillery company,
 
 00:27:48.560 --> 00:27:50.781
 wanted to borrow a horse to
 
 00:27:50.821 --> 00:27:53.222
 pull their artillery piece
 
 00:27:53.303 --> 00:27:54.242
 in a reenactment.
 
 00:27:55.542 --> 00:27:56.864
 So we loaned them Barney.
 
 00:27:57.284 --> 00:27:59.904
 I'll never forget Barney Persharon.
 
 00:28:00.744 --> 00:28:02.385
 And I went with him a couple of times.
 
 00:28:07.267 --> 00:28:11.810
 then the artillery people came and said,
 
 00:28:11.830 --> 00:28:13.771
 we'd like to do a program for the farm,
 
 00:28:13.852 --> 00:28:15.913
 a Saturday, a whole weekend program.
 
 00:28:16.354 --> 00:28:17.035
 We'll camp out.
 
 00:28:17.075 --> 00:28:18.895
 We'll do the cooking over the fires.
 
 00:28:19.056 --> 00:28:20.156
 You know, we'll put up tents.
 
 00:28:20.196 --> 00:28:21.817
 We'll, we'll fire the cannon.
 
 00:28:21.857 --> 00:28:23.098
 We'll do all kinds of stuff.
 
 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:25.961
 And the farm director came to me and said,
 
 00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:26.922
 Larry said, you know,
 
 00:28:26.961 --> 00:28:29.624
 we do eighteen ninety to nineteen ten.
 
 00:28:30.565 --> 00:28:33.366
 But if you can find out what
 
 00:28:33.406 --> 00:28:36.308
 was going on here in the region, Valley,
 
 00:28:36.328 --> 00:28:37.190
 where the farm is,
 
 00:28:38.044 --> 00:28:39.785
 And if the reenactors will
 
 00:28:40.766 --> 00:28:42.667
 agree to help us interpret
 
 00:28:42.827 --> 00:28:44.509
 that rather than a generic
 
 00:28:45.329 --> 00:28:47.612
 rebel war program, then we'll do it.
 
 00:28:48.772 --> 00:28:52.335
 So I knew that from my bits
 
 00:28:52.355 --> 00:28:54.998
 of research so far that one
 
 00:28:55.018 --> 00:28:56.519
 of the owners of part of
 
 00:28:56.538 --> 00:28:58.180
 the land where the farm is
 
 00:28:58.220 --> 00:28:59.760
 now during the revolution
 
 00:28:59.800 --> 00:29:01.522
 had been a militia captain
 
 00:29:01.702 --> 00:29:03.785
 in that regiment that I
 
 00:29:04.025 --> 00:29:05.405
 ultimately came to write about.
 
 00:29:06.857 --> 00:29:08.779
 And I didn't know much about it.
 
 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:10.740
 I just, I knew he had a title.
 
 00:29:10.800 --> 00:29:13.784
 I knew, you know, that kind of thing.
 
 00:29:13.864 --> 00:29:16.244
 So I went to places like the
 
 00:29:16.266 --> 00:29:17.787
 New Jersey State Archives.
 
 00:29:18.547 --> 00:29:21.450
 And I don't know if many
 
 00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:23.330
 people remember the David
 
 00:29:23.371 --> 00:29:26.032
 Library of the American Revolution.
 
 00:29:26.133 --> 00:29:27.134
 It was very famous,
 
 00:29:28.734 --> 00:29:30.155
 but twenty minutes from my house.
 
 00:29:30.175 --> 00:29:31.237
 So I almost lived there.
 
 00:29:32.157 --> 00:29:33.298
 But I went I went there.
 
 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:35.519
 And told him that I needed
 
 00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:36.980
 to do background for a
 
 00:29:37.020 --> 00:29:38.520
 weekend program at Howell
 
 00:29:38.560 --> 00:29:40.421
 Farm on the revolution.
 
 00:29:40.441 --> 00:29:42.082
 And it would be the New Jersey militia.
 
 00:29:42.622 --> 00:29:43.521
 And they said, good luck.
 
 00:29:45.261 --> 00:29:46.761
 Nobody's ever written about that.
 
 00:29:47.803 --> 00:29:48.722
 Said there's probably some
 
 00:29:48.762 --> 00:29:49.863
 documents somewhere.
 
 00:29:50.242 --> 00:29:53.203
 But it's not a topic that
 
 00:29:53.223 --> 00:29:55.523
 people know a lot about.
 
 00:29:55.584 --> 00:29:58.125
 So I started researching and
 
 00:29:58.144 --> 00:29:59.365
 it wound up being a book.
 
 00:30:05.336 --> 00:30:09.057
 We owe it all to Barney, the horse.
 
 00:30:09.077 --> 00:30:10.358
 Did the artillery scare the
 
 00:30:10.398 --> 00:30:11.839
 horses when it went off?
 
 00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:14.101
 Well, that's one reason they got Barney.
 
 00:30:14.121 --> 00:30:15.541
 Okay.
 
 00:30:15.561 --> 00:30:17.763
 Because yes,
 
 00:30:17.804 --> 00:30:19.684
 horses normally would have been very,
 
 00:30:22.145 --> 00:30:25.228
 horses, you know, they're like people,
 
 00:30:25.248 --> 00:30:25.448
 you know,
 
 00:30:25.468 --> 00:30:27.169
 they got all kinds of range and
 
 00:30:27.209 --> 00:30:29.590
 personality and things like that.
 
 00:30:30.391 --> 00:30:31.852
 And Barney was a very calm guy.
 
 00:30:31.872 --> 00:30:33.393
 Okay.
 
 00:30:33.452 --> 00:30:34.834
 And Barney knew me.
 
 00:30:35.739 --> 00:30:37.300
 And whoever would take him
 
 00:30:37.820 --> 00:30:38.442
 and that helped.
 
 00:30:39.282 --> 00:30:41.525
 And one thing that I did
 
 00:30:42.385 --> 00:30:44.007
 particularly was make sure
 
 00:30:44.047 --> 00:30:45.568
 that he was watching.
 
 00:30:46.849 --> 00:30:47.851
 He wasn't attached to the
 
 00:30:47.891 --> 00:30:48.852
 cannon while it was being
 
 00:30:48.892 --> 00:30:51.054
 shot in the position.
 
 00:30:51.934 --> 00:30:52.816
 I made sure that he could
 
 00:30:52.955 --> 00:30:56.239
 see the cannon when it was going to fire.
 
 00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:58.662
 So that when the smoke came
 
 00:30:58.721 --> 00:30:59.883
 out and when he heard the bang,
 
 00:31:00.648 --> 00:31:01.469
 You put two and two together.
 
 00:31:01.489 --> 00:31:02.369
 Something was happening.
 
 00:31:02.390 --> 00:31:04.170
 It wasn't just something he
 
 00:31:04.190 --> 00:31:05.131
 had to be worried about.
 
 00:31:05.770 --> 00:31:09.192
 So we kept him well under control.
 
 00:31:10.532 --> 00:31:12.634
 But reenactors have to worry about horses,
 
 00:31:13.993 --> 00:31:15.015
 if they're riding them or
 
 00:31:15.355 --> 00:31:16.695
 they're using them for whatever.
 
 00:31:17.615 --> 00:31:20.217
 And I would point out that
 
 00:31:21.136 --> 00:31:22.377
 with Washington crossing
 
 00:31:22.417 --> 00:31:24.838
 the Delaware on that stormy night,
 
 00:31:25.672 --> 00:31:26.972
 in the ten crucial days
 
 00:31:27.532 --> 00:31:28.813
 before the Battle of Trenton,
 
 00:31:29.153 --> 00:31:30.953
 he had to cross probably a
 
 00:31:30.993 --> 00:31:32.315
 hundred or more horses.
 
 00:31:32.595 --> 00:31:33.295
 Yeah.
 
 00:31:33.335 --> 00:31:34.455
 Between his officers,
 
 00:31:34.496 --> 00:31:36.115
 horses and the horses that
 
 00:31:36.155 --> 00:31:38.696
 were pulling cannon and
 
 00:31:38.737 --> 00:31:40.417
 pulling our ammunition
 
 00:31:40.458 --> 00:31:41.999
 wagons and things like that.
 
 00:31:42.538 --> 00:31:43.898
 So they're going to go on ferry boats.
 
 00:31:43.919 --> 00:31:44.740
 They're not going to go in
 
 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:46.299
 the Durham boats that the
 
 00:31:47.060 --> 00:31:48.520
 men went across and they're
 
 00:31:48.540 --> 00:31:50.041
 going on a flat ferry boat
 
 00:31:50.442 --> 00:31:51.903
 that has flaps at both ends
 
 00:31:51.923 --> 00:31:54.042
 so they can roll on and roll off.
 
 00:31:55.003 --> 00:31:55.163
 But
 
 00:31:56.009 --> 00:31:57.111
 horses are not going to like
 
 00:31:57.131 --> 00:31:58.092
 being out on the water.
 
 00:31:58.112 --> 00:31:59.532
 No, no.
 
 00:31:59.772 --> 00:32:02.335
 Unless they're used to it or
 
 00:32:02.434 --> 00:32:04.616
 unless they're with somebody who can,
 
 00:32:05.258 --> 00:32:06.798
 they can trust that isn't
 
 00:32:06.818 --> 00:32:08.800
 putting them in a bad situation.
 
 00:32:09.800 --> 00:32:10.821
 So whenever I picture
 
 00:32:10.862 --> 00:32:11.762
 Washington's crossing,
 
 00:32:11.883 --> 00:32:13.324
 I picture all kinds of things.
 
 00:32:13.344 --> 00:32:13.545
 You know,
 
 00:32:13.585 --> 00:32:15.526
 some horses doing fine and some
 
 00:32:15.586 --> 00:32:18.048
 horses just going crazy, you know,
 
 00:32:18.087 --> 00:32:18.989
 trying to cross them.
 
 00:32:19.009 --> 00:32:21.391
 Amazing.
 
 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:23.401
 We're talking with Larry Kidder,
 
 00:32:23.580 --> 00:32:25.682
 the author of Ten Crucial Days,
 
 00:32:25.721 --> 00:32:28.563
 Washington's Vision for Victory Unfolds,
 
 00:32:28.623 --> 00:32:30.344
 as well as other books
 
 00:32:30.384 --> 00:32:31.584
 about the New Jersey
 
 00:32:31.604 --> 00:32:34.185
 militia in New Jersey in the Revolution.
 
 00:32:34.625 --> 00:32:35.925
 I don't want to get too far
 
 00:32:36.006 --> 00:32:37.527
 off the subject of the Revolution,
 
 00:32:37.567 --> 00:32:38.627
 but you also did a lot of
 
 00:32:38.667 --> 00:32:40.327
 research to create the
 
 00:32:41.048 --> 00:32:42.409
 National Destroyer Museum
 
 00:32:42.489 --> 00:32:44.009
 on the USF's Joseph P. Kent.
 
 00:32:53.211 --> 00:32:53.772
 doing that research?
 
 00:32:53.792 --> 00:32:54.133
 Sure.
 
 00:32:54.952 --> 00:33:00.037
 No, I was in the Navy, um, in the Navy, um,
 
 00:33:01.157 --> 00:33:02.638
 that should ring a bell in
 
 00:33:02.679 --> 00:33:03.838
 terms of what was going on.
 
 00:33:03.858 --> 00:33:04.880
 Right.
 
 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.801
 And my first assignment was to, uh,
 
 00:33:07.821 --> 00:33:11.265
 Vietnam, uh, to Saigon, uh,
 
 00:33:11.285 --> 00:33:12.305
 with the Navy Research and
 
 00:33:12.325 --> 00:33:13.145
 Development Unit.
 
 00:33:13.986 --> 00:33:14.666
 I was a yeoman.
 
 00:33:15.007 --> 00:33:16.929
 I was a typist, if you will, you know,
 
 00:33:17.128 --> 00:33:19.069
 an office worker because I'm colorblind.
 
 00:33:27.748 --> 00:33:28.949
 So I helped write research
 
 00:33:29.009 --> 00:33:31.810
 reports on equipment for
 
 00:33:31.830 --> 00:33:35.232
 the River Navy and Canal Navy in Vietnam.
 
 00:33:36.294 --> 00:33:37.213
 And then after that,
 
 00:33:37.413 --> 00:33:39.155
 I was assigned to the USS
 
 00:33:39.195 --> 00:33:42.538
 Brownson gearing class destroyer.
 
 00:33:43.877 --> 00:33:45.159
 And I was home ported in Newport,
 
 00:33:45.558 --> 00:33:46.099
 Rhode Island.
 
 00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:48.340
 And I was on that for about
 
 00:33:48.500 --> 00:33:49.342
 fourteen months.
 
 00:33:50.525 --> 00:33:51.486
 And again,
 
 00:33:51.526 --> 00:33:54.468
 that was a great tour of duty
 
 00:33:54.508 --> 00:33:56.009
 because I was the lead
 
 00:33:56.048 --> 00:33:57.670
 yeoman in the ship's office.
 
 00:33:58.150 --> 00:33:59.310
 So I worked directly for the
 
 00:33:59.351 --> 00:34:00.612
 executive officer and the
 
 00:34:00.652 --> 00:34:01.752
 commanding officer.
 
 00:34:02.993 --> 00:34:06.016
 And we had an experimental sonar aboard.
 
 00:34:06.536 --> 00:34:08.577
 So we were doing a lot of stuff that year,
 
 00:34:08.657 --> 00:34:10.259
 chasing submarines, you know,
 
 00:34:10.278 --> 00:34:11.800
 trying to detect submarines
 
 00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:13.240
 in a good way.
 
 00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:16.023
 You know, not Russian subs, you know,
 
 00:34:16.083 --> 00:34:17.664
 our own subs, you know, for training.
 
 00:34:18.483 --> 00:34:19.403
 not that we never saw.
 
 00:34:19.423 --> 00:34:21.824
 But you know,
 
 00:34:21.864 --> 00:34:22.606
 we weren't we weren't
 
 00:34:22.766 --> 00:34:24.065
 attacking them or looking
 
 00:34:24.106 --> 00:34:24.905
 for him that way.
 
 00:34:27.027 --> 00:34:30.148
 So then after that
 
 00:34:30.527 --> 00:34:31.469
 assignment that I was
 
 00:34:31.688 --> 00:34:32.929
 stationed at Newport for
 
 00:34:32.949 --> 00:34:34.789
 the last few months at on
 
 00:34:34.829 --> 00:34:36.650
 the staff at Officer Candidate School,
 
 00:34:37.391 --> 00:34:39.472
 well, because I had served on a destroyer,
 
 00:34:40.192 --> 00:34:40.311
 and
 
 00:34:41.367 --> 00:34:42.807
 My duty station, by the way,
 
 00:34:42.867 --> 00:34:43.989
 on the destroyer was not
 
 00:34:44.028 --> 00:34:45.128
 just the ship's office,
 
 00:34:45.188 --> 00:34:47.909
 but whenever we were doing something,
 
 00:34:47.949 --> 00:34:50.030
 getting underway, refueling,
 
 00:34:50.489 --> 00:34:52.050
 doing target practice with
 
 00:34:52.090 --> 00:34:53.969
 our five-inch guns, whatever it was,
 
 00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:55.990
 my duty station was on the
 
 00:34:56.030 --> 00:34:58.291
 bridge as the captain's phone talker.
 
 00:34:58.931 --> 00:35:00.052
 So I was the captain's
 
 00:35:00.152 --> 00:35:01.572
 communication between him
 
 00:35:01.632 --> 00:35:05.733
 and the ship for all of those activities.
 
 00:35:05.793 --> 00:35:06.172
 So I had a
 
 00:35:08.179 --> 00:35:09.001
 as an enlisted man,
 
 00:35:09.041 --> 00:35:09.840
 I had a very close
 
 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:10.802
 relationship with the
 
 00:35:10.842 --> 00:35:12.822
 captain trusted me for all
 
 00:35:12.842 --> 00:35:13.844
 kinds of things.
 
 00:35:14.784 --> 00:35:17.987
 And because I was able to do them,
 
 00:35:18.487 --> 00:35:21.028
 you know, he was always real kind to me.
 
 00:35:21.889 --> 00:35:22.871
 So, um,
 
 00:35:22.931 --> 00:35:24.331
 I remember one office at one time
 
 00:35:24.351 --> 00:35:25.233
 we drove,
 
 00:35:25.253 --> 00:35:28.054
 we pulled into Newport and the captain,
 
 00:35:28.594 --> 00:35:32.056
 uh, said to his junior officers on,
 
 00:35:32.297 --> 00:35:34.739
 on the bridge, okay, hit the books, guys,
 
 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:35.340
 go study.
 
 00:35:37.034 --> 00:35:37.835
 Go find your wife.
 
 00:35:38.375 --> 00:35:41.115
 Take leave.
 
 00:35:42.036 --> 00:35:42.916
 It was good.
 
 00:35:42.936 --> 00:35:47.418
 But then after my time in the Navy,
 
 00:35:48.338 --> 00:35:49.199
 and I really did,
 
 00:35:51.101 --> 00:35:52.420
 I hate to use the word enjoy,
 
 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:53.601
 particularly during wartime,
 
 00:35:54.382 --> 00:35:57.704
 but it was interesting and
 
 00:35:57.764 --> 00:35:59.204
 rewarding in many ways.
 
 00:36:00.184 --> 00:36:02.746
 And I wanted to keep in
 
 00:36:02.806 --> 00:36:04.606
 touch with the Navy.
 
 00:36:05.813 --> 00:36:07.434
 And when I learned about the
 
 00:36:08.655 --> 00:36:09.835
 Joseph P. Kennedy being
 
 00:36:09.896 --> 00:36:14.358
 birthed at Fall River as a museum ship,
 
 00:36:15.277 --> 00:36:16.157
 and there was an
 
 00:36:16.237 --> 00:36:17.719
 organization taking care of
 
 00:36:17.778 --> 00:36:19.179
 it called Tin Can Sailors.
 
 00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:22.121
 Destroyer's nickname is Tin Cans.
 
 00:36:24.802 --> 00:36:26.603
 And I got associated with them.
 
 00:36:27.782 --> 00:36:30.483
 And because of being a
 
 00:36:30.543 --> 00:36:31.864
 history guy and all of that,
 
 00:36:32.605 --> 00:36:33.686
 I got involved in doing...
 
 00:36:35.632 --> 00:36:38.114
 first-person narratives,
 
 00:36:40.034 --> 00:36:40.956
 interviewing guys who'd
 
 00:36:40.976 --> 00:36:43.918
 been not necessarily in Vietnam,
 
 00:36:43.938 --> 00:36:47.380
 but World War II and other things.
 
 00:36:48.221 --> 00:36:49.742
 And so we wanted to have
 
 00:36:49.802 --> 00:36:52.925
 these first-person accounts in file,
 
 00:36:54.425 --> 00:36:55.806
 a library and archive kind of thing.
 
 00:36:57.047 --> 00:36:57.869
 And from that,
 
 00:36:58.309 --> 00:36:59.329
 then they decided they
 
 00:36:59.369 --> 00:37:01.490
 wanted to put a museum on
 
 00:37:02.851 --> 00:37:03.833
 destroyer history.
 
 00:37:05.847 --> 00:37:07.007
 in a compartment on the
 
 00:37:07.268 --> 00:37:08.668
 Joseph B. Kennedy Jr.,
 
 00:37:09.728 --> 00:37:10.969
 which actually turned out
 
 00:37:11.010 --> 00:37:12.429
 to Joseph B. Kennedy,
 
 00:37:13.070 --> 00:37:16.490
 an exact replica of the ship I served on.
 
 00:37:16.510 --> 00:37:19.952
 They were the same class and same design.
 
 00:37:20.632 --> 00:37:21.572
 So when I boarded the Kennedy,
 
 00:37:21.612 --> 00:37:23.032
 I felt like I was aboard the Brownson.
 
 00:37:24.114 --> 00:37:25.733
 And the museum they wanted
 
 00:37:25.773 --> 00:37:26.474
 to put was going to be
 
 00:37:26.514 --> 00:37:28.175
 right in my berthing compartment.
 
 00:37:29.235 --> 00:37:31.996
 I had my bunk on the Brownson.
 
 00:37:33.157 --> 00:37:35.797
 And so we worked with a team
 
 00:37:35.898 --> 00:37:37.099
 from the Rhode Island
 
 00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:39.780
 School of Design and with
 
 00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:40.559
 some other groups.
 
 00:37:41.260 --> 00:37:42.922
 And I became the lead
 
 00:37:43.422 --> 00:37:45.282
 researcher and writer for
 
 00:37:45.322 --> 00:37:47.963
 the museum exhibits and work,
 
 00:37:48.184 --> 00:37:49.103
 particularly working with
 
 00:37:49.143 --> 00:37:50.784
 Rhode Island School of Design, you know.
 
 00:37:51.342 --> 00:37:52.083
 They were telling me how
 
 00:37:52.123 --> 00:37:54.764
 many words I could have, you know,
 
 00:37:54.824 --> 00:37:56.585
 this doesn't flow into that, you know,
 
 00:37:56.605 --> 00:37:56.945
 do this.
 
 00:37:58.005 --> 00:37:59.447
 So it was really helpful for
 
 00:37:59.547 --> 00:38:01.788
 me to have a background for
 
 00:38:01.827 --> 00:38:05.148
 writing and that kind of thing.
 
 00:38:05.608 --> 00:38:08.990
 And the museum was named
 
 00:38:09.070 --> 00:38:10.632
 after Admiral Arleigh Burke,
 
 00:38:11.891 --> 00:38:14.672
 who was World War II Admiral,
 
 00:38:14.693 --> 00:38:16.074
 who was very famous for his
 
 00:38:16.114 --> 00:38:17.655
 work with destroyers.
 
 00:38:18.574 --> 00:38:20.195
 And I actually got to meet Admiral Burke
 
 00:38:20.990 --> 00:38:22.952
 in his apartment in Washington, D.C.,
 
 00:38:22.972 --> 00:38:25.132
 and interview him.
 
 00:38:26.213 --> 00:38:28.434
 And he came to the opening
 
 00:38:28.494 --> 00:38:29.635
 of the museum also.
 
 00:38:29.695 --> 00:38:32.476
 So fascinating for me to
 
 00:38:34.137 --> 00:38:36.398
 meet a real oracle.
 
 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:42.221
 And that museum, I believe, still exists.
 
 00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:43.340
 This was back in the
 
 00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:45.541
 mid-seventies when I did it.
 
 00:38:45.641 --> 00:38:46.682
 It may have changed.
 
 00:38:47.322 --> 00:38:48.943
 I know they were looking to
 
 00:38:50.108 --> 00:38:51.248
 modernize it in some way.
 
 00:38:51.528 --> 00:38:52.590
 There's been more destroyer
 
 00:38:52.610 --> 00:38:56.130
 history since the museum opened,
 
 00:38:56.291 --> 00:38:57.331
 so I think it continues.
 
 00:38:58.050 --> 00:38:58.371
 It does.
 
 00:38:58.831 --> 00:38:59.050
 Well,
 
 00:38:59.210 --> 00:39:00.632
 I did take my kids there when they
 
 00:39:00.652 --> 00:39:01.411
 were younger,
 
 00:39:01.552 --> 00:39:03.032
 and their grandfather was on
 
 00:39:03.152 --> 00:39:04.672
 a destroyer in World War II.
 
 00:39:04.753 --> 00:39:06.652
 So after seeing the museum,
 
 00:39:06.672 --> 00:39:07.952
 they insisted that grandpa
 
 00:39:07.994 --> 00:39:09.813
 join the tin can sailors.
 
 00:39:10.347 --> 00:39:12.608
 OK, good.
 
 00:39:12.648 --> 00:39:13.208
 Very good.
 
 00:39:13.427 --> 00:39:13.867
 Very good.
 
 00:39:13.927 --> 00:39:14.228
 Yeah.
 
 00:39:16.148 --> 00:39:18.028
 Well, thank you so much, Larry.
 
 00:39:18.048 --> 00:39:19.650
 I mean, we could go on talking all day,
 
 00:39:19.769 --> 00:39:20.429
 I suspect,
 
 00:39:20.510 --> 00:39:22.309
 but we'll have to have you back
 
 00:39:22.409 --> 00:39:23.971
 on to get back to the
 
 00:39:23.990 --> 00:39:25.391
 revolution and other things.
 
 00:39:26.550 --> 00:39:27.231
 Anything else we should
 
 00:39:27.271 --> 00:39:28.391
 cover before we let you go?
 
 00:39:33.347 --> 00:39:37.951
 yes and no so much uh no I I
 
 00:39:37.971 --> 00:39:39.012
 appreciate your questions I
 
 00:39:39.032 --> 00:39:40.552
 appreciate the range of of
 
 00:39:40.592 --> 00:39:41.614
 what I was able to talk
 
 00:39:41.653 --> 00:39:43.994
 about for you today um and
 
 00:39:44.076 --> 00:39:45.777
 also and particularly to to
 
 00:39:45.817 --> 00:39:48.358
 bring out um history is the
 
 00:39:48.398 --> 00:39:50.619
 stories of people it's not
 
 00:39:50.659 --> 00:39:51.820
 just the stories of
 
 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:53.282
 organizations and that kind
 
 00:39:53.302 --> 00:39:53.942
 of thing it's not just
 
 00:39:54.001 --> 00:39:55.282
 dates to memorize for a
 
 00:39:55.302 --> 00:39:58.025
 test it's it it really is
 
 00:39:58.766 --> 00:40:01.788
 worth studying history and
 
 00:40:02.958 --> 00:40:04.139
 interpreting history in
 
 00:40:04.179 --> 00:40:05.418
 order to understand what it
 
 00:40:05.478 --> 00:40:06.599
 is to be a human being.
 
 00:40:07.581 --> 00:40:09.041
 We go through various
 
 00:40:09.340 --> 00:40:10.802
 experiences in our lives
 
 00:40:11.322 --> 00:40:14.143
 that test our ability to deal.
 
 00:40:14.764 --> 00:40:16.065
 And it's good to know that
 
 00:40:16.085 --> 00:40:19.266
 people have always had that to do.
 
 00:40:19.405 --> 00:40:20.887
 We're not unusual in our
 
 00:40:20.947 --> 00:40:23.668
 modern age of having difficulties.
 
 00:40:24.809 --> 00:40:25.748
 Everybody has.
 
 00:40:26.409 --> 00:40:27.070
 History repeats.
 
 00:40:31.693 --> 00:40:33.414
 understand how people
 
 00:40:33.474 --> 00:40:34.775
 previously dealt with
 
 00:40:34.795 --> 00:40:36.197
 difficulties to help us
 
 00:40:36.237 --> 00:40:37.498
 deal with our difficulties
 
 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:40.742
 and also the good things in
 
 00:40:40.802 --> 00:40:42.724
 life too that's true yeah
 
 00:40:43.125 --> 00:40:45.086
 yeah they've existed for a
 
 00:40:45.146 --> 00:40:46.349
 long time too we need to
 
 00:40:46.369 --> 00:40:49.972
 focus on them now do you
 
 00:40:50.012 --> 00:40:50.994
 take part in the
 
 00:40:51.114 --> 00:40:51.813
 reenactments of
 
 00:40:51.853 --> 00:40:53.255
 washington's crossing every year
 
 00:40:55.431 --> 00:41:00.773
 Hey, no, I'm an eighteen ninety nineteen.
 
 00:41:00.833 --> 00:41:02.333
 My costume is not
 
 00:41:02.373 --> 00:41:03.652
 appropriate for the crowd.
 
 00:41:03.713 --> 00:41:07.014
 You know,
 
 00:41:07.414 --> 00:41:08.894
 if you ask me to plow or if you
 
 00:41:08.994 --> 00:41:10.875
 ask me to do something with horses,
 
 00:41:10.914 --> 00:41:13.096
 I love the horses, you know,
 
 00:41:13.115 --> 00:41:13.675
 working with them.
 
 00:41:14.376 --> 00:41:14.856
 But no,
 
 00:41:15.215 --> 00:41:16.677
 I've never been a Revolutionary War
 
 00:41:16.737 --> 00:41:17.336
 reenactor.
 
 00:41:17.657 --> 00:41:18.996
 That doesn't mean I don't
 
 00:41:19.016 --> 00:41:21.498
 get involved with them, for example.
 
 00:41:22.371 --> 00:41:23.271
 This Saturday,
 
 00:41:23.411 --> 00:41:25.972
 they'll be reenacting the
 
 00:41:25.992 --> 00:41:27.313
 Battle of Trenton.
 
 00:41:28.333 --> 00:41:29.673
 They'll be reenactors moving
 
 00:41:29.713 --> 00:41:32.253
 through town and that sort of thing.
 
 00:41:32.474 --> 00:41:33.835
 And they've asked me to be a
 
 00:41:33.894 --> 00:41:34.875
 narrator for that.
 
 00:41:34.914 --> 00:41:36.695
 I've done that before.
 
 00:41:36.715 --> 00:41:38.436
 I've done that before.
 
 00:41:38.456 --> 00:41:40.115
 I also do tours of the
 
 00:41:40.235 --> 00:41:42.597
 Princeton battlefield and
 
 00:41:42.657 --> 00:41:44.016
 do things for them.
 
 00:41:45.637 --> 00:41:46.438
 But I always do it.
 
 00:41:51.697 --> 00:41:52.777
 So I do get involved,
 
 00:41:52.818 --> 00:41:54.579
 but not as a reenactor.
 
 00:41:54.619 --> 00:41:56.900
 Okay.
 
 00:41:56.920 --> 00:41:58.119
 So this is great to know.
 
 00:41:58.159 --> 00:41:59.460
 So if we wanted a tour of
 
 00:41:59.500 --> 00:42:00.541
 the Princeton Battlefield,
 
 00:42:00.561 --> 00:42:02.161
 you're the guy to contact
 
 00:42:02.260 --> 00:42:03.581
 because it sounds like it.
 
 00:42:03.601 --> 00:42:05.882
 And so we'll have to get
 
 00:42:05.902 --> 00:42:08.543
 back on to talk about Princeton sometime.
 
 00:42:08.762 --> 00:42:10.983
 If you were to look up on the web,
 
 00:42:11.423 --> 00:42:13.184
 Princeton Battlefield Society,
 
 00:42:15.045 --> 00:42:16.945
 you'd learn about the tours
 
 00:42:16.965 --> 00:42:17.686
 there and all of that.
 
 00:42:18.166 --> 00:42:20.047
 And on top of that, there's a,
 
 00:42:21.282 --> 00:42:23.003
 website called ten crucial
 
 00:42:23.043 --> 00:42:26.686
 days dot org and that deals
 
 00:42:26.786 --> 00:42:29.128
 with the entire ten crucial
 
 00:42:29.148 --> 00:42:30.668
 days princeton was the last
 
 00:42:30.708 --> 00:42:32.889
 of that but the historic
 
 00:42:32.949 --> 00:42:35.192
 sites like the barracks in
 
 00:42:35.211 --> 00:42:37.152
 trenton washington crossing
 
 00:42:37.193 --> 00:42:40.614
 parks uh yeah all the
 
 00:42:40.695 --> 00:42:42.115
 things that from that time
 
 00:42:42.155 --> 00:42:43.876
 period they all kind of
 
 00:42:43.916 --> 00:42:45.378
 gather at that trend ten
 
 00:42:45.418 --> 00:42:47.619
 crucial days website to see
 
 00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:50.181
 how if you're visiting the area you know
 
 00:42:50.978 --> 00:42:52.320
 how you can get involved to
 
 00:42:52.340 --> 00:42:53.760
 a really deep degree.
 
 00:42:53.780 --> 00:42:53.880
 Great.
 
 00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:56.601
 Well, thank you so much.
 
 00:42:56.661 --> 00:42:57.702
 We've been talking to
 
 00:42:57.742 --> 00:42:59.121
 William L. Larry Kidder
 
 00:42:59.583 --> 00:43:02.023
 about his experience as a writer,
 
 00:43:02.083 --> 00:43:03.463
 historian, teacher.
 
 00:43:04.684 --> 00:43:05.684
 What fortunate students
 
 00:43:05.704 --> 00:43:06.724
 you've had over the years
 
 00:43:06.804 --> 00:43:08.746
 to learn history and learn
 
 00:43:08.826 --> 00:43:09.827
 the importance of history.
 
 00:43:09.867 --> 00:43:11.047
 So thank you so much for joining us,
 
 00:43:11.067 --> 00:43:11.186
 Larry.
 
 00:43:11.387 --> 00:43:13.047
 It's been fun talking to you.
 
 00:43:13.068 --> 00:43:14.148
 Well, thank you, Bob.
 
 00:43:14.208 --> 00:43:15.509
 I've really enjoyed talking with you.
 
 00:43:17.168 --> 00:43:18.530
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:43:18.550 --> 00:43:19.490
 our producer and our
 
 00:43:19.550 --> 00:43:20.891
 listeners around the world.
 
 00:43:20.972 --> 00:43:22.773
 You know, every week, um, you know,
 
 00:43:22.793 --> 00:43:23.733
 we have people all over the
 
 00:43:23.773 --> 00:43:25.255
 world tuning in regularly
 
 00:43:25.295 --> 00:43:26.695
 and every week we thank some of them.
 
 00:43:26.715 --> 00:43:27.496
 And if you have one of these
 
 00:43:27.536 --> 00:43:28.817
 places and want some of our
 
 00:43:28.856 --> 00:43:30.657
 Revolution Two-Fifty swag,
 
 00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:32.260
 send Jonathan an email,
 
 00:43:32.300 --> 00:43:34.481
 jlane at revolution two-fifty.org.
 
 00:43:34.501 --> 00:43:35.041
 And this week,
 
 00:43:35.722 --> 00:43:37.543
 I want to thank our friends in Magnolia,
 
 00:43:37.603 --> 00:43:39.744
 Texas and Clementine, New Jersey,
 
 00:43:40.144 --> 00:43:41.606
 Lake City, South Carolina.
 
 00:43:42.487 --> 00:43:43.389
 Lowell here in the
 
 00:43:43.429 --> 00:43:44.969
 Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
 
 00:43:45.030 --> 00:43:47.731
 Louisville and Detroit, South Boston,
 
 00:43:47.751 --> 00:43:48.552
 Massachusetts,
 
 00:43:48.572 --> 00:43:50.172
 and all places between and beyond.
 
 00:43:50.213 --> 00:43:51.592
 And now we will be piped out
 
 00:43:51.693 --> 00:43:52.614
 on the road to Boston.