John Dickinson: Penman of the Revolution with Jane Calvert

John Dickinson burst onto the scene with his "Letters from a Farmer in Pennsylvania" published in a Philadelphia newspaper in 1767 and 1768.  He wrote "The Liberty Song,"  sung all over America, including at the 1769  Sons of Liberty dinner in Dorchester, Massachusetts, and the Continental Congress's Olive Branch Petition and with Jefferson  the "Declaration on the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms."  While he opposed the Declaration of Independence, he drafted the Articles of Confederation, and in 1787 was a member of the Constitutional Convention.  We talk about Dickinson with Dr. Jane Calvert, author of the new biography, Penman of the Founding:  A Biography of John Dickinson , and the Director and Chief Editor of the John Dickinson Writings Project.

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:01.772 --> 00:00:02.472
 Hello, everyone.
 
 00:00:02.532 --> 00:00:03.653
 Welcome to the Revolution
 
 00:00:03.693 --> 00:00:04.854
 Two-Fifty podcast.
 
 00:00:04.974 --> 00:00:05.735
 I'm Bob Allison.
 
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 I chair the Revolution
 
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 Two-Fifty Advisory Group.
 
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 We are a consortium of about
 
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 seventy five or so
 
 00:00:10.997 --> 00:00:11.819
 organizations in
 
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 Massachusetts planning ways
 
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 to commemorate the
 
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 beginnings of American independence.
 
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 And our guest today is Jane E. Calvert.
 
 00:00:18.903 --> 00:00:21.425
 Jane Calvert is the director
 
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 and chief editor of the
 
 00:00:22.446 --> 00:00:23.527
 John Dickinson Writing
 
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 Project and the author of
 
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 two books on John Dickinson,
 
 00:00:26.528 --> 00:00:28.089
 Quaker Constitutionalism
 
 00:00:28.210 --> 00:00:29.030
 and the Political Thought
 
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 of John Dickinson.
 
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 And her new book is Penman of the Founding,
 
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 a biography of John Dickinson.
 
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 So Jane, thank you so much for joining us.
 
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 Thanks for inviting me.
 
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 And so let me ask you first,
 
 00:00:42.371 --> 00:00:43.512
 Dickinson is a figure who
 
 00:00:43.552 --> 00:00:44.573
 looms very large at the
 
 00:00:44.612 --> 00:00:46.154
 time of the founding.
 
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 And today he's somewhat obscure,
 
 00:00:50.975 --> 00:00:52.256
 but I wonder what drew you
 
 00:00:52.296 --> 00:00:53.576
 to him as a subject you
 
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 wanted to spend the next, you know,
 
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 twenty years of your life focusing on.
 
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 Well,
 
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 so I went into graduate school in
 
 00:01:02.713 --> 00:01:04.656
 history to study
 
 00:01:04.876 --> 00:01:06.656
 intellectual history and
 
 00:01:06.757 --> 00:01:08.578
 try to understand what's
 
 00:01:08.618 --> 00:01:10.420
 going on in America today
 
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 by understanding the past.
 
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 And I actually had no
 
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 intention of studying the founding era.
 
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 I was going to do colonial era.
 
 00:01:21.269 --> 00:01:23.090
 but I started working on
 
 00:01:23.131 --> 00:01:26.453
 Quakers and Dickinson's
 
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 name kept coming up and
 
 00:01:29.296 --> 00:01:30.037
 there was nothing but
 
 00:01:30.076 --> 00:01:32.218
 confusion when I tried to find more.
 
 00:01:32.259 --> 00:01:33.379
 The historians really didn't
 
 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:34.680
 seem to know what to make of him.
 
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 And as I got to sort of
 
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 understand him a little bit,
 
 00:01:39.564 --> 00:01:42.686
 I think I was able to
 
 00:01:42.727 --> 00:01:43.707
 understand him because I
 
 00:01:43.727 --> 00:01:45.730
 had gone to a Quaker college
 
 00:01:46.787 --> 00:01:49.468
 And as I learned about Quakerism,
 
 00:01:50.048 --> 00:01:51.629
 I found it quite appealing,
 
 00:01:51.709 --> 00:01:53.370
 but I myself did not want
 
 00:01:53.390 --> 00:01:54.329
 to become a Quaker.
 
 00:01:54.549 --> 00:01:57.671
 And that seemed to me
 
 00:01:57.730 --> 00:01:59.512
 exactly what was going on with Dickinson,
 
 00:01:59.572 --> 00:02:02.033
 that there was a lot of questions.
 
 00:02:02.052 --> 00:02:03.513
 Well, was Dickinson a Quaker?
 
 00:02:03.533 --> 00:02:04.573
 Was he not a Quaker?
 
 00:02:04.914 --> 00:02:06.353
 And why did he do what he did,
 
 00:02:06.433 --> 00:02:08.835
 namely lead the resistance to Britain,
 
 00:02:08.875 --> 00:02:11.316
 but then not vote on or
 
 00:02:11.355 --> 00:02:12.776
 sign the Declaration of Independence?
 
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 And so when I looked at him,
 
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 it just resonated because I'm like, well,
 
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 you know,
 
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 it's very clear that he was what
 
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 Quakers call a fellow
 
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 traveler and really
 
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 sympathetic with a lot of
 
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 Quaker causes and concerns and interests.
 
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 But he himself never wanted
 
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 to become a Quaker.
 
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 And that just made all the
 
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 sense in the world to me.
 
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 And so I found him
 
 00:02:35.902 --> 00:02:40.283
 relatively easy to explain after, like,
 
 00:02:40.324 --> 00:02:41.443
 I made that connection.
 
 00:02:43.438 --> 00:02:45.802
 interesting and I I was just
 
 00:02:45.823 --> 00:02:46.844
 by the way reading some of
 
 00:02:46.884 --> 00:02:48.167
 his letters in preparation
 
 00:02:48.187 --> 00:02:49.187
 for this since he goes back
 
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 and forth between
 
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 addressing someone as thou
 
 00:02:51.271 --> 00:02:52.894
 and you that is he's using
 
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 sometimes a quaker formula
 
 00:02:54.216 --> 00:02:55.639
 and sometimes he isn't which
 
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 So yeah,
 
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 the later in life we go in
 
 00:03:01.887 --> 00:03:03.647
 Dickinson's biography,
 
 00:03:04.427 --> 00:03:05.907
 the more Quakerly he became.
 
 00:03:06.549 --> 00:03:08.269
 And so early,
 
 00:03:08.969 --> 00:03:09.990
 when you're seeing letters
 
 00:03:10.590 --> 00:03:13.350
 where he is addressing someone as you,
 
 00:03:14.170 --> 00:03:16.072
 which is the plural formal
 
 00:03:16.092 --> 00:03:17.893
 that we use today for the
 
 00:03:17.953 --> 00:03:19.212
 individual singular,
 
 00:03:20.794 --> 00:03:22.074
 that was either early in
 
 00:03:22.133 --> 00:03:23.074
 his life or when he was
 
 00:03:23.094 --> 00:03:24.055
 sort of transitioning
 
 00:03:24.514 --> 00:03:27.036
 from the kind of regular
 
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 speech to what we call the
 
 00:03:28.276 --> 00:03:29.296
 Quaker plain speech.
 
 00:03:29.597 --> 00:03:30.556
 But then later in life,
 
 00:03:31.937 --> 00:03:35.038
 his letters are all using thee and thou.
 
 00:03:35.558 --> 00:03:37.360
 And that's because he became
 
 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:39.080
 just much more sort of
 
 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:41.860
 Quakerly in his everyday
 
 00:03:42.002 --> 00:03:43.021
 life and his demeanor.
 
 00:03:43.981 --> 00:03:46.962
 his clothing, his speech, everything.
 
 00:03:47.483 --> 00:03:48.383
 But yeah,
 
 00:03:48.403 --> 00:03:50.544
 there was a period sort of in the
 
 00:03:50.625 --> 00:03:51.444
 seventeen eighties where he
 
 00:03:51.504 --> 00:03:53.125
 kind of was sort of
 
 00:03:53.145 --> 00:03:54.466
 switching back and forth a little bit.
 
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 Interesting.
 
 00:03:55.325 --> 00:03:55.626
 Interesting.
 
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 And he also writes probably
 
 00:03:59.888 --> 00:04:01.548
 the most important American
 
 00:04:01.587 --> 00:04:03.468
 political track before the revolution,
 
 00:04:03.489 --> 00:04:04.530
 The Farmers Letters.
 
 00:04:04.569 --> 00:04:05.710
 Can we talk a little bit about
 
 00:04:06.384 --> 00:04:07.824
 that because it's something
 
 00:04:07.844 --> 00:04:09.126
 that remains part of the
 
 00:04:09.165 --> 00:04:11.825
 canon into the early nineteenth century.
 
 00:04:11.846 --> 00:04:12.806
 The farmer's letters is
 
 00:04:12.885 --> 00:04:14.187
 really a staple of American
 
 00:04:14.227 --> 00:04:15.067
 political thought.
 
 00:04:16.567 --> 00:04:16.867
 Yes.
 
 00:04:17.747 --> 00:04:18.766
 So, yeah, I mean,
 
 00:04:18.826 --> 00:04:20.468
 he had taken a lead in the
 
 00:04:20.507 --> 00:04:21.608
 Stamp Act resistance.
 
 00:04:22.447 --> 00:04:24.427
 And then after that,
 
 00:04:25.629 --> 00:04:27.689
 the parliament passed the
 
 00:04:27.728 --> 00:04:30.569
 Declaratory Act and the Townsend Act.
 
 00:04:31.149 --> 00:04:31.430
 And
 
 00:04:32.670 --> 00:04:33.509
 Dickinson was sort of
 
 00:04:33.591 --> 00:04:34.951
 waiting for somebody else
 
 00:04:35.011 --> 00:04:37.471
 to start protesting the
 
 00:04:37.492 --> 00:04:40.552
 Townsend acts and people weren't, they,
 
 00:04:40.612 --> 00:04:40.692
 they,
 
 00:04:40.773 --> 00:04:41.973
 all the people who were so upset
 
 00:04:41.994 --> 00:04:43.634
 about the stamp act were
 
 00:04:43.673 --> 00:04:45.235
 not upset about the Townsend acts.
 
 00:04:45.295 --> 00:04:46.915
 And so he, he kind of waited.
 
 00:04:46.975 --> 00:04:48.255
 And then when nobody stepped forward,
 
 00:04:48.456 --> 00:04:49.915
 he decided he had to do it.
 
 00:04:50.276 --> 00:04:52.697
 And so these letters he wrote, um,
 
 00:04:52.776 --> 00:04:55.819
 under the pen name of farmer and, uh, he,
 
 00:04:56.119 --> 00:04:56.238
 um, uh,
 
 00:04:57.579 --> 00:04:59.721
 basically was taking it upon
 
 00:04:59.761 --> 00:05:02.002
 himself to educate
 
 00:05:02.062 --> 00:05:04.843
 Americans about their
 
 00:05:04.923 --> 00:05:06.185
 rights and about how to
 
 00:05:06.264 --> 00:05:09.086
 resist encroachment on them
 
 00:05:09.206 --> 00:05:10.307
 or oppression by the
 
 00:05:10.326 --> 00:05:11.367
 government peacefully,
 
 00:05:12.228 --> 00:05:14.509
 and to instruct Americans in
 
 00:05:15.750 --> 00:05:17.050
 the fact that they were
 
 00:05:17.531 --> 00:05:19.333
 American and that they had
 
 00:05:19.353 --> 00:05:20.673
 an identity that was
 
 00:05:20.994 --> 00:05:22.355
 distinct from Britain.
 
 00:05:22.915 --> 00:05:24.016
 And so,
 
 00:05:25.276 --> 00:05:26.718
 and he was very specifically
 
 00:05:26.858 --> 00:05:28.879
 addressing the ordinary people,
 
 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:30.901
 working people and, you know,
 
 00:05:30.940 --> 00:05:33.843
 people who may not even have, you know,
 
 00:05:33.862 --> 00:05:34.903
 been able to read.
 
 00:05:35.483 --> 00:05:37.925
 And so he's sort of really
 
 00:05:37.966 --> 00:05:40.067
 trying to just sort of
 
 00:05:41.636 --> 00:05:43.016
 garner a sense of American
 
 00:05:43.076 --> 00:05:45.439
 identity and unity and
 
 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.081
 peaceful resistance in
 
 00:05:47.161 --> 00:05:48.942
 order to defend their rights.
 
 00:05:49.822 --> 00:05:53.387
 And this persona of a farmer,
 
 00:05:55.028 --> 00:05:55.928
 I've seen people sort of
 
 00:05:56.168 --> 00:05:57.730
 criticizing Dickinson saying, oh, well,
 
 00:05:57.771 --> 00:05:59.012
 he wasn't a farmer at all.
 
 00:05:59.692 --> 00:06:01.014
 He was a lawyer and he lived
 
 00:06:01.053 --> 00:06:01.874
 in Philadelphia.
 
 00:06:01.894 --> 00:06:03.696
 And well, that is true,
 
 00:06:04.396 --> 00:06:05.677
 but he also had a
 
 00:06:05.718 --> 00:06:07.720
 plantation down in Kent County,
 
 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:09.721
 um in what is now delaware
 
 00:06:09.761 --> 00:06:10.802
 when at the time that was
 
 00:06:10.841 --> 00:06:12.663
 part of pennsylvania and
 
 00:06:13.062 --> 00:06:14.463
 and so um he was
 
 00:06:14.524 --> 00:06:16.024
 technically a gentleman
 
 00:06:16.045 --> 00:06:17.665
 farmer nobody nobody
 
 00:06:17.706 --> 00:06:19.206
 mistook him for you know
 
 00:06:19.226 --> 00:06:19.987
 someone who was walking
 
 00:06:20.028 --> 00:06:21.309
 behind a plow with dirt
 
 00:06:21.369 --> 00:06:23.009
 under his fingernails um
 
 00:06:23.029 --> 00:06:24.850
 but this this persona was
 
 00:06:25.211 --> 00:06:27.153
 someone who the um the
 
 00:06:27.192 --> 00:06:28.733
 upper sorts the elite could
 
 00:06:28.774 --> 00:06:30.014
 trust because he he
 
 00:06:30.035 --> 00:06:31.175
 described himself as having
 
 00:06:31.495 --> 00:06:32.836
 you know a library and an
 
 00:06:32.937 --> 00:06:35.218
 education and uh and uh and
 
 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:37.660
 really you know he had some money
 
 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:41.423
 And so the elite could trust
 
 00:06:41.483 --> 00:06:43.064
 him as one of their own,
 
 00:06:43.404 --> 00:06:45.065
 but then also he was doing
 
 00:06:45.346 --> 00:06:47.127
 the duty that a gentleman
 
 00:06:47.187 --> 00:06:49.589
 has to the lower sorts of people,
 
 00:06:49.629 --> 00:06:51.110
 which is to sort of,
 
 00:06:51.891 --> 00:06:53.432
 the word was to condescend to them,
 
 00:06:53.452 --> 00:06:55.093
 which was a very positive thing.
 
 00:06:55.113 --> 00:06:56.235
 A gentleman was supposed to
 
 00:06:56.336 --> 00:06:59.158
 lower himself to speak
 
 00:06:59.557 --> 00:07:01.379
 with his inferiors.
 
 00:07:01.738 --> 00:07:03.238
 And so Dickinson was doing that.
 
 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:05.439
 And so the ordinary people
 
 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:06.581
 trusted him as well.
 
 00:07:06.980 --> 00:07:08.880
 And so these letters caught
 
 00:07:09.021 --> 00:07:12.083
 on like nothing before and
 
 00:07:12.262 --> 00:07:13.543
 really launched Dickinson
 
 00:07:13.622 --> 00:07:15.824
 into international celebrity.
 
 00:07:17.764 --> 00:07:19.548
 So he wasn't pretending to
 
 00:07:19.588 --> 00:07:20.689
 be a man of the people.
 
 00:07:20.769 --> 00:07:22.732
 He was acting in a certain station.
 
 00:07:22.771 --> 00:07:23.173
 And again,
 
 00:07:23.213 --> 00:07:24.454
 farmers were also seen as
 
 00:07:24.935 --> 00:07:26.036
 uncorruptible because they
 
 00:07:26.218 --> 00:07:27.358
 owned something and they
 
 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:28.701
 had a certain stake in this
 
 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:29.903
 and they were disinterested,
 
 00:07:29.963 --> 00:07:31.144
 I think would be another word.
 
 00:07:32.300 --> 00:07:34.783
 That is the key word, disinterested.
 
 00:07:35.124 --> 00:07:35.803
 So of course,
 
 00:07:35.824 --> 00:07:37.264
 that doesn't mean uninterested.
 
 00:07:37.305 --> 00:07:38.427
 It means impartial.
 
 00:07:39.447 --> 00:07:40.307
 There's a lot of confusion
 
 00:07:40.327 --> 00:07:41.189
 today about that word.
 
 00:07:41.829 --> 00:07:42.930
 People use it synonymously
 
 00:07:42.971 --> 00:07:43.831
 with uninterested.
 
 00:07:43.930 --> 00:07:45.452
 But disinterested meant that
 
 00:07:45.492 --> 00:07:46.314
 he was impartial.
 
 00:07:46.653 --> 00:07:47.113
 And yes,
 
 00:07:47.375 --> 00:07:49.716
 it was because he was tied to the land.
 
 00:07:49.776 --> 00:07:50.718
 He was independent.
 
 00:07:51.237 --> 00:07:54.360
 And so yes, that's exactly right.
 
 00:07:54.641 --> 00:07:55.822
 He was not pretending to be
 
 00:07:55.841 --> 00:07:56.583
 a man of the people.
 
 00:07:56.882 --> 00:07:59.425
 His Quaker beliefs meant
 
 00:07:59.464 --> 00:08:02.206
 that he actually truly believed that all,
 
 00:08:02.648 --> 00:08:03.348
 not just men,
 
 00:08:03.468 --> 00:08:05.189
 all people were created equal.
 
 00:08:05.649 --> 00:08:07.372
 And so he believed that
 
 00:08:07.432 --> 00:08:11.035
 there was that of God in every person.
 
 00:08:11.334 --> 00:08:12.435
 And so every person,
 
 00:08:12.696 --> 00:08:14.297
 and he says it in his opening letter,
 
 00:08:14.958 --> 00:08:16.478
 it doesn't matter how poor
 
 00:08:16.899 --> 00:08:17.860
 or weak you may be,
 
 00:08:18.781 --> 00:08:20.322
 you should speak up and you
 
 00:08:20.341 --> 00:08:22.184
 should engage because you
 
 00:08:22.244 --> 00:08:23.245
 never know what kind of
 
 00:08:23.285 --> 00:08:24.384
 difference it might make.
 
 00:08:25.269 --> 00:08:26.189
 Interesting.
 
 00:08:26.209 --> 00:08:27.630
 We're talking with Jane Calvert,
 
 00:08:27.790 --> 00:08:29.411
 author of Penman of the Founding,
 
 00:08:29.511 --> 00:08:31.351
 a biography of John Dickinson,
 
 00:08:31.391 --> 00:08:33.091
 and also the director and
 
 00:08:33.111 --> 00:08:34.133
 chief editor of the John
 
 00:08:34.173 --> 00:08:35.533
 Dickinson Writing Project,
 
 00:08:35.552 --> 00:08:37.394
 talking about John Dickinson.
 
 00:08:37.673 --> 00:08:39.794
 Had he spent time in Great Britain before
 
 00:08:42.095 --> 00:08:43.054
 Yes, he did.
 
 00:08:43.115 --> 00:08:43.495
 In fact,
 
 00:08:43.715 --> 00:08:47.255
 he went for his legal training to London.
 
 00:08:47.416 --> 00:08:48.496
 He was at the Middle Temple,
 
 00:08:48.537 --> 00:08:50.636
 which is one of the inns of
 
 00:08:50.677 --> 00:08:52.437
 court in London.
 
 00:08:52.677 --> 00:08:54.018
 And so he was there from
 
 00:08:54.437 --> 00:08:56.457
 late-seventeen-fifty-three
 
 00:08:56.557 --> 00:08:58.639
 to early-seventeen-fifty-seven.
 
 00:08:58.658 --> 00:09:00.418
 So he was there for three years.
 
 00:09:00.899 --> 00:09:02.299
 And he went over with the
 
 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:03.460
 intent of just staying a
 
 00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:05.360
 couple of years and becoming a solicitor.
 
 00:09:05.860 --> 00:09:09.061
 But he was so good at what
 
 00:09:09.100 --> 00:09:10.101
 he was doing that he caught
 
 00:09:10.142 --> 00:09:11.201
 the attention of
 
 00:09:11.562 --> 00:09:12.241
 the treasurer,
 
 00:09:12.922 --> 00:09:15.503
 the head of the Middle Temple,
 
 00:09:15.962 --> 00:09:17.504
 and he ended up staying an
 
 00:09:17.563 --> 00:09:20.104
 extra year and becoming a barrister.
 
 00:09:20.605 --> 00:09:21.985
 There was a very high achievement.
 
 00:09:22.625 --> 00:09:24.426
 While he was in London,
 
 00:09:24.446 --> 00:09:27.005
 and this is very different
 
 00:09:27.846 --> 00:09:28.687
 compared to someone like
 
 00:09:28.947 --> 00:09:29.606
 Benjamin Franklin,
 
 00:09:30.366 --> 00:09:31.748
 when Dickinson was in London,
 
 00:09:32.288 --> 00:09:33.908
 he really started
 
 00:09:33.988 --> 00:09:35.729
 identifying as an American
 
 00:09:36.009 --> 00:09:38.129
 and missing his homeland.
 
 00:09:38.309 --> 00:09:39.330
 Interesting.
 
 00:09:39.789 --> 00:09:42.230
 And he really started
 
 00:09:42.490 --> 00:09:44.750
 thinking how proud he was
 
 00:09:44.791 --> 00:09:46.291
 to be an American and that
 
 00:09:46.331 --> 00:09:50.371
 it meant that he and the
 
 00:09:50.432 --> 00:09:52.532
 other Americans he was associated with,
 
 00:09:54.231 --> 00:09:55.753
 the distinguishing features
 
 00:09:55.873 --> 00:09:56.952
 of their American identity
 
 00:09:56.993 --> 00:09:59.972
 was that they were sober and industrious.
 
 00:10:00.453 --> 00:10:02.153
 And in other words, virtuous.
 
 00:10:02.614 --> 00:10:04.854
 And so, yes, it was, I think,
 
 00:10:04.894 --> 00:10:06.475
 a really important
 
 00:10:07.195 --> 00:10:08.914
 formative moment in his life.
 
 00:10:09.315 --> 00:10:10.216
 And whereas, you know,
 
 00:10:10.296 --> 00:10:13.058
 other founders like like Franklin,
 
 00:10:13.678 --> 00:10:13.860
 you know,
 
 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:15.480
 went over and wanted to just
 
 00:10:15.561 --> 00:10:18.884
 stay and more or less become, you know,
 
 00:10:18.924 --> 00:10:20.466
 British and sit in parliament.
 
 00:10:20.485 --> 00:10:20.566
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:20.745 --> 00:10:21.366
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:21.706 --> 00:10:23.589
 Like Franklin was there for about fifteen,
 
 00:10:23.649 --> 00:10:25.291
 seventeen years and he has
 
 00:10:25.311 --> 00:10:26.591
 a brief respite back.
 
 00:10:26.832 --> 00:10:27.874
 But you get the feeling this
 
 00:10:27.913 --> 00:10:28.975
 is where he wants to stay.
 
 00:10:29.034 --> 00:10:29.855
 This is really where his
 
 00:10:29.895 --> 00:10:31.317
 life is at the center of things.
 
 00:10:31.961 --> 00:10:32.341
 Indeed,
 
 00:10:32.801 --> 00:10:34.761
 he would not have come back and
 
 00:10:34.802 --> 00:10:35.802
 joined the American cause
 
 00:10:36.082 --> 00:10:37.783
 had he not been humiliated
 
 00:10:38.504 --> 00:10:41.065
 in his goal to get a seat in Parliament.
 
 00:10:41.365 --> 00:10:42.525
 So really, you know,
 
 00:10:42.586 --> 00:10:43.525
 his interest in becoming a
 
 00:10:43.586 --> 00:10:46.206
 patriot was a vindictive one to sort of,
 
 00:10:46.326 --> 00:10:48.888
 you know, stick it to the British Empire.
 
 00:10:48.967 --> 00:10:50.369
 And Dickinson and Franklin
 
 00:10:50.428 --> 00:10:51.950
 don't really get along very
 
 00:10:52.009 --> 00:10:52.730
 well politically.
 
 00:10:53.666 --> 00:10:54.947
 No, no, not at all.
 
 00:10:54.986 --> 00:10:56.508
 They were at odds with one
 
 00:10:56.548 --> 00:10:58.568
 another on several major issues.
 
 00:11:00.049 --> 00:11:00.669
 First of all,
 
 00:11:01.409 --> 00:11:03.130
 Dickinson was a defense
 
 00:11:03.150 --> 00:11:06.092
 attorney for Reverend William Smith,
 
 00:11:06.452 --> 00:11:08.894
 who was put on trial for libel.
 
 00:11:08.913 --> 00:11:12.275
 He was tried for libel of
 
 00:11:12.336 --> 00:11:13.476
 the Pennsylvania Assembly
 
 00:11:13.537 --> 00:11:14.977
 by the Pennsylvania Assembly.
 
 00:11:15.298 --> 00:11:16.678
 And Dickinson defended him.
 
 00:11:16.958 --> 00:11:18.980
 And Franklin was on the other side of that,
 
 00:11:19.500 --> 00:11:21.660
 trying to get, you know,
 
 00:11:21.701 --> 00:11:22.461
 to sort of impeach
 
 00:11:23.322 --> 00:11:26.625
 Smith's character and have him imprisoned.
 
 00:11:26.725 --> 00:11:29.749
 And then Franklin and Joseph
 
 00:11:29.788 --> 00:11:31.691
 Galloway in seventeen
 
 00:11:31.730 --> 00:11:33.893
 sixty-four tried to abolish
 
 00:11:34.254 --> 00:11:35.794
 the Quakers' seventeen oh
 
 00:11:36.034 --> 00:11:37.996
 one constitution for
 
 00:11:38.017 --> 00:11:39.839
 Pennsylvania and Dickinson
 
 00:11:40.099 --> 00:11:41.520
 fought against that because
 
 00:11:42.701 --> 00:11:43.763
 It that that constitution
 
 00:11:43.822 --> 00:11:45.464
 was it provided liberty of
 
 00:11:45.524 --> 00:11:46.985
 conscience for everybody in
 
 00:11:47.024 --> 00:11:48.866
 Pennsylvania and something
 
 00:11:48.927 --> 00:11:49.986
 Franklin wouldn't really
 
 00:11:50.148 --> 00:11:51.268
 care much about because he
 
 00:11:51.308 --> 00:11:54.230
 himself was not a religious dissenter.
 
 00:11:54.870 --> 00:11:56.292
 And anyway, so, yes,
 
 00:11:57.013 --> 00:11:58.474
 I think that Dickinson
 
 00:11:58.594 --> 00:11:59.875
 Dickinson was a very.
 
 00:12:01.394 --> 00:12:02.375
 He was a straight shooter.
 
 00:12:02.754 --> 00:12:04.756
 He was extraordinarily
 
 00:12:04.797 --> 00:12:06.977
 virtuous and self-sacrificing.
 
 00:12:07.339 --> 00:12:09.841
 And he saw Franklin as someone who would,
 
 00:12:09.860 --> 00:12:11.721
 you know,
 
 00:12:11.741 --> 00:12:14.384
 try to profit from his political
 
 00:12:14.464 --> 00:12:17.706
 offices and someone who was
 
 00:12:17.787 --> 00:12:18.788
 not to be trusted.
 
 00:12:19.207 --> 00:12:22.791
 And so, no, the two did not,
 
 00:12:23.010 --> 00:12:24.091
 they had no personal
 
 00:12:24.111 --> 00:12:25.212
 relationship that I've been
 
 00:12:25.253 --> 00:12:26.053
 able to discern.
 
 00:12:26.647 --> 00:12:27.368
 That's interesting.
 
 00:12:28.089 --> 00:12:28.649
 Just quickly,
 
 00:12:28.769 --> 00:12:29.971
 is there a difference in
 
 00:12:30.032 --> 00:12:31.433
 America between solicitors
 
 00:12:31.474 --> 00:12:31.994
 and barristers?
 
 00:12:32.054 --> 00:12:33.476
 I mean, in England, you do have that.
 
 00:12:33.697 --> 00:12:34.697
 So he comes back.
 
 00:12:34.798 --> 00:12:36.461
 So is there a distinction here?
 
 00:12:37.230 --> 00:12:38.251
 There isn't much of one
 
 00:12:38.292 --> 00:12:40.133
 because there were fewer
 
 00:12:40.173 --> 00:12:43.556
 lawyers and so basically
 
 00:12:43.655 --> 00:12:44.937
 lawyers had to sort of take
 
 00:12:45.076 --> 00:12:47.438
 on all roles and all duties
 
 00:12:47.839 --> 00:12:49.299
 and they had to sort of do
 
 00:12:49.341 --> 00:12:52.163
 the kind of like paperwork
 
 00:12:52.202 --> 00:12:53.384
 behind the scenes and they
 
 00:12:53.443 --> 00:12:55.926
 also had to argue in court.
 
 00:12:56.365 --> 00:12:57.626
 And so, you know,
 
 00:12:57.846 --> 00:12:59.187
 they took every kind of case.
 
 00:12:59.207 --> 00:13:00.349
 They didn't specialize.
 
 00:13:01.169 --> 00:13:01.549
 So, you know,
 
 00:13:01.570 --> 00:13:02.811
 they took everything from sort of,
 
 00:13:03.191 --> 00:13:03.471
 you know,
 
 00:13:04.971 --> 00:13:08.033
 trying to collect small debts, to,
 
 00:13:08.052 --> 00:13:13.014
 you know, trespasses, to murder, you know,
 
 00:13:13.094 --> 00:13:15.053
 criminal trials, you know,
 
 00:13:15.134 --> 00:13:16.254
 just what they did everything.
 
 00:13:16.274 --> 00:13:16.975
 So, yeah.
 
 00:13:17.235 --> 00:13:17.355
 Okay.
 
 00:13:18.735 --> 00:13:19.075
 Now he's,
 
 00:13:19.315 --> 00:13:20.315
 so he comes back and he's
 
 00:13:21.375 --> 00:13:22.696
 essentially going to set up
 
 00:13:22.716 --> 00:13:24.576
 a successful law practice.
 
 00:13:24.755 --> 00:13:27.956
 What draws him into becoming a politician?
 
 00:13:29.298 --> 00:13:29.559
 Well,
 
 00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:31.922
 it was kind of something that if you
 
 00:13:31.981 --> 00:13:34.184
 were a wealthy gentleman,
 
 00:13:34.504 --> 00:13:36.307
 it was just understood that
 
 00:13:36.726 --> 00:13:38.669
 you would serve in public office.
 
 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:39.870
 It was part of the duties of
 
 00:13:39.931 --> 00:13:40.672
 being a gentleman,
 
 00:13:40.971 --> 00:13:43.073
 that you were there to lead
 
 00:13:43.495 --> 00:13:47.899
 and to basically –
 
 00:13:47.318 --> 00:13:49.461
 Yeah, to protect the lower sort.
 
 00:13:49.941 --> 00:13:52.803
 And so it was just a part of
 
 00:13:52.823 --> 00:13:54.345
 what Dickinson assumed he would do.
 
 00:13:54.365 --> 00:13:57.067
 And so he entered politics
 
 00:13:57.147 --> 00:13:58.327
 in seventeen fifty nine
 
 00:13:58.368 --> 00:14:00.710
 when he was elected to the
 
 00:14:00.769 --> 00:14:02.451
 legislature of the three
 
 00:14:02.471 --> 00:14:03.912
 lower counties of Pennsylvania,
 
 00:14:03.932 --> 00:14:04.952
 which is now Delaware.
 
 00:14:05.113 --> 00:14:05.774
 It had its separate
 
 00:14:05.813 --> 00:14:09.277
 legislature from Pennsylvania.
 
 00:14:09.356 --> 00:14:10.236
 And then he essentially
 
 00:14:10.256 --> 00:14:11.739
 spends the rest of his life
 
 00:14:11.818 --> 00:14:13.620
 almost as a public servant
 
 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:14.600
 then in that sense.
 
 00:14:15.296 --> 00:14:16.096
 Yeah, absolutely.
 
 00:14:16.115 --> 00:14:16.376
 I mean,
 
 00:14:16.437 --> 00:14:18.957
 his last public office that he held
 
 00:14:18.977 --> 00:14:20.457
 was in seventeen ninety three.
 
 00:14:20.818 --> 00:14:22.198
 That doesn't mean he
 
 00:14:22.239 --> 00:14:23.919
 abstained from politics by any means,
 
 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.140
 but he was not continuously in office.
 
 00:14:27.160 --> 00:14:29.101
 There were a few years here
 
 00:14:29.142 --> 00:14:30.263
 and there where he did not
 
 00:14:30.302 --> 00:14:31.823
 hold public office, but more or less,
 
 00:14:32.203 --> 00:14:33.464
 more or less continuously.
 
 00:14:33.484 --> 00:14:35.784
 And even if he wasn't
 
 00:14:35.904 --> 00:14:37.206
 actually holding office,
 
 00:14:37.525 --> 00:14:38.947
 he was usually writing
 
 00:14:40.086 --> 00:14:41.868
 about politics and engaging
 
 00:14:41.927 --> 00:14:43.009
 in one way or the other.
 
 00:14:44.378 --> 00:14:45.778
 We're talking with Jane Calvert,
 
 00:14:45.899 --> 00:14:47.340
 author of Penman of the Founding,
 
 00:14:47.379 --> 00:14:48.620
 a biography of John
 
 00:14:48.660 --> 00:14:49.802
 Dickinson and also the
 
 00:14:49.881 --> 00:14:51.121
 editor of the John
 
 00:14:51.162 --> 00:14:52.503
 Dickinson Writings Project.
 
 00:14:52.743 --> 00:14:54.083
 By the way, I just found this,
 
 00:14:54.664 --> 00:14:55.845
 you're mentioning Dickinson
 
 00:14:55.965 --> 00:14:57.385
 realizing he's an American
 
 00:14:57.426 --> 00:14:58.466
 in the seventeen fifties
 
 00:14:58.506 --> 00:14:59.628
 when he is in London.
 
 00:15:00.347 --> 00:15:02.629
 And then this probably is
 
 00:15:02.669 --> 00:15:03.870
 what draws him into
 
 00:15:03.951 --> 00:15:05.410
 supporting this cause and
 
 00:15:05.431 --> 00:15:06.652
 being one of the first real
 
 00:15:07.192 --> 00:15:07.852
 advocates for this.
 
 00:15:07.873 --> 00:15:10.294
 But this is in February of eighteen oh one,
 
 00:15:10.534 --> 00:15:10.774
 when
 
 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:12.880
 Congress elected Thomas
 
 00:15:12.921 --> 00:15:14.120
 Jefferson president after
 
 00:15:14.140 --> 00:15:15.162
 this disputed election.
 
 00:15:15.182 --> 00:15:16.361
 He writes this extraordinary
 
 00:15:16.461 --> 00:15:18.221
 letter to Jefferson and
 
 00:15:18.241 --> 00:15:20.763
 this just leaped out this line,
 
 00:15:21.102 --> 00:15:23.182
 perhaps we are the selected
 
 00:15:23.222 --> 00:15:25.043
 people upon the earth from
 
 00:15:25.082 --> 00:15:26.302
 whom large portions of
 
 00:15:26.363 --> 00:15:27.803
 mankind are to learn that
 
 00:15:27.864 --> 00:15:29.004
 liberty is really a
 
 00:15:29.083 --> 00:15:31.043
 transcendental blessing as
 
 00:15:31.083 --> 00:15:33.365
 capable by its enlightened
 
 00:15:33.504 --> 00:15:35.144
 energies of calmly
 
 00:15:35.184 --> 00:15:36.625
 dissipating its internal
 
 00:15:36.705 --> 00:15:38.586
 enemies as of triumphantly
 
 00:15:38.625 --> 00:15:40.725
 repelling its foreign foes.
 
 00:15:41.697 --> 00:15:42.740
 It's an extraordinary
 
 00:15:42.820 --> 00:15:47.528
 statement about the American role in .
 
 00:15:46.808 --> 00:15:51.097
 And then Jefferson writes .
 
 00:15:52.414 --> 00:15:55.397
 I'll let you go on.
 
 00:15:55.496 --> 00:15:55.797
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:15:55.836 --> 00:15:57.658
 Well, you know, yeah, I just,
 
 00:15:57.677 --> 00:16:00.379
 those kinds of wonderful
 
 00:16:00.418 --> 00:16:02.399
 passages just abound in
 
 00:16:02.421 --> 00:16:03.681
 Dickinson's writing.
 
 00:16:03.701 --> 00:16:07.123
 I am continually amazed by
 
 00:16:07.302 --> 00:16:10.245
 not just his sort of vision for America,
 
 00:16:10.585 --> 00:16:14.287
 but also his prescience in that really,
 
 00:16:14.307 --> 00:16:16.388
 I mean, people call him forward-looking.
 
 00:16:16.548 --> 00:16:18.369
 I would say he was kind of, you know,
 
 00:16:18.589 --> 00:16:19.250
 Quakerly,
 
 00:16:20.190 --> 00:16:21.971
 in that how much he cared
 
 00:16:22.331 --> 00:16:25.033
 about individual rights, for example,
 
 00:16:25.433 --> 00:16:29.635
 and really tried to realize
 
 00:16:30.677 --> 00:16:31.437
 the promise of the
 
 00:16:31.477 --> 00:16:32.758
 Declaration of Independence.
 
 00:16:32.957 --> 00:16:34.318
 And he read the Declaration
 
 00:16:34.339 --> 00:16:36.159
 of Independence much more
 
 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.522
 as we do today than other
 
 00:16:38.562 --> 00:16:40.082
 men of the time.
 
 00:16:42.024 --> 00:16:42.784
 And so that's just a
 
 00:16:42.825 --> 00:16:44.426
 wonderful passage because
 
 00:16:44.666 --> 00:16:46.768
 it really exemplifies
 
 00:16:46.847 --> 00:16:49.048
 Dickinson's thoughts about
 
 00:16:49.409 --> 00:16:51.990
 liberty and about the role
 
 00:16:52.110 --> 00:16:55.793
 of religion in that,
 
 00:16:56.414 --> 00:16:57.875
 but also the kind of
 
 00:16:58.176 --> 00:16:59.476
 moderate stance he took
 
 00:16:59.537 --> 00:17:04.780
 about not being someone who
 
 00:17:05.181 --> 00:17:08.462
 believed in violence as a way to achieve
 
 00:17:09.864 --> 00:17:10.744
 Liberty for all.
 
 00:17:11.065 --> 00:17:13.047
 So, yes, it's a very, very nice passage.
 
 00:17:13.267 --> 00:17:14.728
 It really is.
 
 00:17:14.748 --> 00:17:15.949
 So what draws him then?
 
 00:17:15.969 --> 00:17:18.290
 And so he doesn't sign the declaration,
 
 00:17:18.310 --> 00:17:19.192
 but then he's really the
 
 00:17:19.271 --> 00:17:20.413
 main author of the Articles
 
 00:17:20.432 --> 00:17:21.193
 of Confederation,
 
 00:17:21.213 --> 00:17:23.195
 this attempt to hold this union together.
 
 00:17:23.596 --> 00:17:24.416
 And then what kind of a role
 
 00:17:24.436 --> 00:17:26.077
 does he play during the war itself?
 
 00:17:27.701 --> 00:17:32.305
 So Dickinson's authorship of
 
 00:17:32.786 --> 00:17:33.326
 the Articles of
 
 00:17:33.385 --> 00:17:35.527
 Confederation was really
 
 00:17:35.586 --> 00:17:37.288
 kind of the capstone
 
 00:17:37.808 --> 00:17:41.431
 feature of his efforts to
 
 00:17:41.511 --> 00:17:44.913
 prepare America for the
 
 00:17:44.933 --> 00:17:46.654
 Declaration of Independence.
 
 00:17:48.336 --> 00:17:50.317
 So he'd spent the ten years prior
 
 00:17:51.565 --> 00:17:53.665
 trying to unify Americans
 
 00:17:53.885 --> 00:17:56.288
 because he he saw independence coming,
 
 00:17:56.307 --> 00:18:00.509
 you know, since seventeen sixty five,
 
 00:18:00.650 --> 00:18:01.029
 you know,
 
 00:18:02.030 --> 00:18:04.392
 at at least seventeen sixty five.
 
 00:18:04.451 --> 00:18:05.952
 He was he was concerned about that.
 
 00:18:06.292 --> 00:18:08.493
 And so he did more than any
 
 00:18:08.554 --> 00:18:09.775
 other single person to
 
 00:18:09.815 --> 00:18:11.615
 prepare America for independence.
 
 00:18:11.915 --> 00:18:12.715
 And by that,
 
 00:18:12.816 --> 00:18:16.597
 I mean he tried to unify America.
 
 00:18:16.657 --> 00:18:18.499
 He did more than really any
 
 00:18:18.538 --> 00:18:19.700
 other single person.
 
 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.903
 to prepare America militarily,
 
 00:18:24.664 --> 00:18:26.066
 including raising a battalion.
 
 00:18:26.247 --> 00:18:27.647
 And he at one point had
 
 00:18:27.708 --> 00:18:28.828
 control of the entire
 
 00:18:29.250 --> 00:18:30.330
 Pennsylvania militia.
 
 00:18:31.392 --> 00:18:34.976
 And he just really was
 
 00:18:34.996 --> 00:18:37.038
 concerned about America being prepared.
 
 00:18:37.478 --> 00:18:39.219
 And so the Articles of Confederation,
 
 00:18:39.239 --> 00:18:39.859
 you know,
 
 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.381
 there were there were there were
 
 00:18:41.601 --> 00:18:42.862
 three key committees that
 
 00:18:42.902 --> 00:18:43.922
 were formed in June of
 
 00:18:43.961 --> 00:18:45.123
 seventeen seventy six.
 
 00:18:45.624 --> 00:18:46.844
 And and Dickinson,
 
 00:18:48.005 --> 00:18:49.086
 one was the committee to
 
 00:18:49.105 --> 00:18:51.346
 write the declaration, which Dickinson,
 
 00:18:51.386 --> 00:18:51.647
 of course,
 
 00:18:51.667 --> 00:18:53.148
 was not on because he was not
 
 00:18:53.189 --> 00:18:54.189
 in favor of declaring
 
 00:18:54.229 --> 00:18:55.289
 independence at that time.
 
 00:18:55.953 --> 00:18:57.174
 And then there was the
 
 00:18:57.194 --> 00:19:00.297
 committee to write a model
 
 00:19:00.356 --> 00:19:01.657
 treaty to be used for
 
 00:19:01.678 --> 00:19:02.818
 American foreign policy.
 
 00:19:02.919 --> 00:19:03.598
 He was on that one.
 
 00:19:03.919 --> 00:19:04.859
 And he was on the committee
 
 00:19:04.940 --> 00:19:08.241
 to draft the Articles of Confederation,
 
 00:19:08.321 --> 00:19:09.462
 America's First Constitution.
 
 00:19:09.542 --> 00:19:10.983
 And then he did draft that
 
 00:19:11.564 --> 00:19:12.444
 single-handedly.
 
 00:19:13.125 --> 00:19:18.449
 And so then he hoped that
 
 00:19:18.469 --> 00:19:19.490
 America would be prepared.
 
 00:19:19.849 --> 00:19:20.549
 But he still...
 
 00:19:21.590 --> 00:19:23.271
 refused to vote on or sign
 
 00:19:23.291 --> 00:19:23.852
 the Declaration of
 
 00:19:23.892 --> 00:19:25.212
 Independence because in the first place,
 
 00:19:26.173 --> 00:19:27.294
 he knew it was going to pass.
 
 00:19:28.394 --> 00:19:30.016
 And if it was going to pass,
 
 00:19:30.135 --> 00:19:30.856
 he wanted it to be
 
 00:19:30.936 --> 00:19:32.497
 unanimous so that the world
 
 00:19:32.538 --> 00:19:33.978
 would know that we were united,
 
 00:19:34.038 --> 00:19:35.638
 even though in truth we were not.
 
 00:19:37.059 --> 00:19:38.721
 And then he didn't vote on
 
 00:19:38.781 --> 00:19:40.202
 it because that would have, I mean, yes,
 
 00:19:40.563 --> 00:19:41.344
 he didn't vote on it
 
 00:19:41.364 --> 00:19:42.505
 because he wanted to be unanimous.
 
 00:19:42.585 --> 00:19:43.965
 And then he didn't sign it because,
 
 00:19:44.006 --> 00:19:44.326
 of course,
 
 00:19:44.946 --> 00:19:45.587
 that would have been
 
 00:19:45.948 --> 00:19:47.209
 disingenuous to sign
 
 00:19:47.249 --> 00:19:48.931
 something he hadn't voted for.
 
 00:19:50.092 --> 00:19:51.031
 And then,
 
 00:19:52.973 --> 00:19:54.915
 but he was fully committed to
 
 00:19:54.955 --> 00:19:56.436
 supporting the American
 
 00:19:56.477 --> 00:19:59.339
 cause with everything that he had.
 
 00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:00.701
 So within days,
 
 00:20:01.101 --> 00:20:02.122
 of the passage of the
 
 00:20:02.142 --> 00:20:03.222
 Declaration of Independence,
 
 00:20:03.563 --> 00:20:05.344
 he then joined the militia
 
 00:20:05.364 --> 00:20:06.924
 that he had founded and he
 
 00:20:06.944 --> 00:20:07.965
 was deployed to the New
 
 00:20:08.006 --> 00:20:10.027
 Jersey front to meet the British.
 
 00:20:10.587 --> 00:20:13.730
 And then fast forward to
 
 00:20:13.769 --> 00:20:15.451
 seventeen seventy seven.
 
 00:20:15.590 --> 00:20:17.011
 And he enlisted in the
 
 00:20:17.051 --> 00:20:18.452
 Delaware militia as a private,
 
 00:20:18.493 --> 00:20:19.634
 which is something no other
 
 00:20:19.673 --> 00:20:20.454
 gentleman did.
 
 00:20:21.315 --> 00:20:24.056
 And then he was actually
 
 00:20:24.076 --> 00:20:25.896
 then the commander in chief
 
 00:20:26.076 --> 00:20:28.157
 of two separate states,
 
 00:20:28.198 --> 00:20:29.798
 first Delaware and then Pennsylvania.
 
 00:20:30.239 --> 00:20:33.519
 And so he actually had a
 
 00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:35.580
 broader and more varied
 
 00:20:35.661 --> 00:20:37.240
 military career than even
 
 00:20:37.280 --> 00:20:37.922
 George Washington.
 
 00:20:37.942 --> 00:20:39.122
 Right, interesting, interesting.
 
 00:20:39.241 --> 00:20:40.103
 Now,
 
 00:20:40.123 --> 00:20:42.242
 you said that he read the Declaration
 
 00:20:42.344 --> 00:20:45.005
 more the way we do.
 
 00:20:45.325 --> 00:20:46.404
 Can we talk a little bit
 
 00:20:46.464 --> 00:20:47.566
 more about how he
 
 00:20:47.605 --> 00:20:48.445
 interprets it and what
 
 00:20:48.465 --> 00:20:49.685
 importance that has to his
 
 00:20:49.727 --> 00:20:50.767
 vision of America?
 
 00:20:51.808 --> 00:20:53.049
 Right.
 
 00:20:53.069 --> 00:20:55.750
 There are two very obvious ways.
 
 00:20:56.691 --> 00:20:56.990
 First,
 
 00:20:57.411 --> 00:20:59.251
 in his draft of the Articles of
 
 00:20:59.311 --> 00:20:59.992
 Confederation,
 
 00:21:00.353 --> 00:21:04.974
 he included something novel for the time.
 
 00:21:05.035 --> 00:21:06.715
 He included an extensive
 
 00:21:06.776 --> 00:21:08.195
 religious liberty clause.
 
 00:21:08.615 --> 00:21:10.737
 I should say it's novel for America.
 
 00:21:10.777 --> 00:21:12.417
 It was not novel for Pennsylvania.
 
 00:21:12.458 --> 00:21:12.817
 In fact,
 
 00:21:12.877 --> 00:21:15.839
 he copied the language from the
 
 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:16.380
 Pennsylvania,
 
 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:18.500
 one constitution almost
 
 00:21:18.540 --> 00:21:20.342
 verbatim into the Articles
 
 00:21:20.382 --> 00:21:21.162
 of Confederation.
 
 00:21:21.541 --> 00:21:24.042
 But the one really critical
 
 00:21:24.083 --> 00:21:24.963
 change he made in the
 
 00:21:25.003 --> 00:21:26.724
 language was to use gender
 
 00:21:26.765 --> 00:21:29.586
 inclusive language to give women,
 
 00:21:30.266 --> 00:21:32.086
 to protect women's religious liberty.
 
 00:21:32.346 --> 00:21:33.228
 But more than that,
 
 00:21:34.508 --> 00:21:35.689
 he said that they should be
 
 00:21:36.229 --> 00:21:37.769
 free to practice their religion.
 
 00:21:37.789 --> 00:21:39.671
 And he was thinking of
 
 00:21:39.750 --> 00:21:43.853
 Quaker women like his wife and his mother,
 
 00:21:44.673 --> 00:21:45.753
 because Quaker women were
 
 00:21:45.773 --> 00:21:48.234
 the only women who were
 
 00:21:48.295 --> 00:21:50.096
 allowed and encouraged to preach.
 
 00:21:50.435 --> 00:21:51.758
 right um and so they were
 
 00:21:51.798 --> 00:21:53.519
 ministers so when dickinson
 
 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:54.681
 wrote that women should be
 
 00:21:54.721 --> 00:21:56.482
 able to practice their
 
 00:21:56.522 --> 00:21:57.644
 religion that was
 
 00:21:57.684 --> 00:22:00.488
 effectively trying to
 
 00:22:00.528 --> 00:22:02.450
 protect their um their
 
 00:22:02.670 --> 00:22:06.535
 their freedom of public speech so that
 
 00:22:07.336 --> 00:22:08.676
 I believe is the most
 
 00:22:08.757 --> 00:22:11.119
 radical moment of the revolution.
 
 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:12.560
 And of course the whole
 
 00:22:12.601 --> 00:22:15.123
 clause was excised from the
 
 00:22:15.163 --> 00:22:16.364
 Articles of Confederation
 
 00:22:16.443 --> 00:22:17.904
 and just wiped out.
 
 00:22:19.586 --> 00:22:21.347
 And then the other thing
 
 00:22:21.367 --> 00:22:23.210
 that Dickinson did that again,
 
 00:22:23.289 --> 00:22:26.031
 no other major founder did was he
 
 00:22:27.605 --> 00:22:29.646
 had long disliked slavery.
 
 00:22:30.307 --> 00:22:32.210
 And so in seventeen seventy seven,
 
 00:22:32.390 --> 00:22:34.112
 he began the process of
 
 00:22:34.432 --> 00:22:36.194
 manumitting or freeing the
 
 00:22:36.234 --> 00:22:37.615
 people he enslaved.
 
 00:22:37.655 --> 00:22:38.938
 He and he had inherited
 
 00:22:38.998 --> 00:22:41.701
 slaves from his father and
 
 00:22:42.721 --> 00:22:44.324
 and he had started sort of
 
 00:22:44.344 --> 00:22:45.565
 speaking out publicly
 
 00:22:45.625 --> 00:22:47.186
 against slavery in the
 
 00:22:47.247 --> 00:22:48.489
 early seventeen seventies.
 
 00:22:48.868 --> 00:22:50.631
 But then he wrote his first
 
 00:22:50.871 --> 00:22:53.053
 manumission deed to free
 
 00:22:53.073 --> 00:22:54.453
 them conditionally in
 
 00:22:54.493 --> 00:22:55.474
 seventeen seventy seven.
 
 00:22:55.996 --> 00:22:59.439
 And but then he he he he was
 
 00:22:59.479 --> 00:23:01.339
 trying to sort of, as he as he put it,
 
 00:23:01.621 --> 00:23:04.103
 make the state of slavery easy on them.
 
 00:23:04.403 --> 00:23:05.544
 But then he realized that
 
 00:23:05.564 --> 00:23:07.786
 that was just a lie that he
 
 00:23:07.806 --> 00:23:08.747
 was telling himself.
 
 00:23:09.207 --> 00:23:10.848
 And there was really no
 
 00:23:11.009 --> 00:23:12.711
 other alternative than to
 
 00:23:13.131 --> 00:23:14.711
 free them unconditionally.
 
 00:23:14.771 --> 00:23:15.093
 So he.
 
 00:23:15.532 --> 00:23:16.374
 He freed some of them
 
 00:23:16.453 --> 00:23:17.494
 unconditionally in
 
 00:23:17.555 --> 00:23:18.715
 seventeen eighty one and
 
 00:23:18.756 --> 00:23:20.738
 the remainder he freed in
 
 00:23:20.837 --> 00:23:22.219
 seventeen eighty six.
 
 00:23:22.318 --> 00:23:24.761
 And then he went to work as
 
 00:23:25.082 --> 00:23:26.282
 as an abolitionist trying
 
 00:23:26.323 --> 00:23:28.125
 to get slavery abolished in Delaware.
 
 00:23:28.144 --> 00:23:30.247
 And he tried three separate
 
 00:23:30.267 --> 00:23:31.847
 occasions or about three
 
 00:23:31.867 --> 00:23:34.410
 separate occasions to to
 
 00:23:34.549 --> 00:23:35.611
 end slavery in Delaware.
 
 00:23:35.671 --> 00:23:37.133
 But Delawareans would not
 
 00:23:37.792 --> 00:23:40.055
 they would not allow that to happen.
 
 00:23:40.195 --> 00:23:41.636
 It doesn't happen until the Civil War.
 
 00:23:42.372 --> 00:23:43.393
 Well, actually,
 
 00:23:43.653 --> 00:23:44.634
 it didn't happen until
 
 00:23:44.714 --> 00:23:45.935
 nineteen oh one because
 
 00:23:45.996 --> 00:23:49.921
 they refused to ratify the
 
 00:23:49.941 --> 00:23:50.862
 Thirteenth Amendment until
 
 00:23:50.902 --> 00:23:51.521
 nineteen oh one.
 
 00:23:51.541 --> 00:23:52.923
 Amazing.
 
 00:23:52.963 --> 00:23:54.285
 We're talking with Jane Calvert,
 
 00:23:54.445 --> 00:23:56.488
 author of Penman of the Founding,
 
 00:23:56.508 --> 00:23:58.450
 a biography of John Dickinson,
 
 00:23:58.911 --> 00:23:59.932
 as well as the Quaker
 
 00:23:59.971 --> 00:24:01.192
 constitutionalism and the
 
 00:24:01.232 --> 00:24:02.755
 political thought of John Dickinson.
 
 00:24:03.367 --> 00:24:05.328
 and also the chief editor of
 
 00:24:05.348 --> 00:24:07.309
 the John Dickinson Writings Project.
 
 00:24:07.849 --> 00:24:10.131
 And so you can see, I mean,
 
 00:24:10.151 --> 00:24:11.031
 you have the privilege of
 
 00:24:11.071 --> 00:24:13.133
 really being immersed in his writings.
 
 00:24:13.272 --> 00:24:15.074
 You know, the third volume,
 
 00:24:16.269 --> 00:24:17.670
 the Dickinson of the
 
 00:24:17.690 --> 00:24:18.830
 complete writings has come
 
 00:24:18.911 --> 00:24:20.612
 out and then volume four is
 
 00:24:20.652 --> 00:24:21.512
 anticipated next year.
 
 00:24:21.532 --> 00:24:22.653
 And volume four covers the
 
 00:24:22.693 --> 00:24:24.996
 years of the farmer's letters,
 
 00:24:25.016 --> 00:24:27.698
 I understand.
 
 00:24:27.718 --> 00:24:27.778
 Yes.
 
 00:24:27.798 --> 00:24:29.278
 Yeah, that's an exciting volume.
 
 00:24:29.338 --> 00:24:32.520
 It takes us up until seventeen sixty nine,
 
 00:24:32.561 --> 00:24:34.262
 and that should be out early,
 
 00:24:34.542 --> 00:24:35.624
 early twenty twenty five.
 
 00:24:35.644 --> 00:24:37.525
 Very good.
 
 00:24:37.565 --> 00:24:38.826
 So you can see in his
 
 00:24:38.865 --> 00:24:40.647
 writings the way he is
 
 00:24:40.847 --> 00:24:42.429
 wrestling with things as
 
 00:24:42.528 --> 00:24:43.890
 well as being this
 
 00:24:45.355 --> 00:24:47.656
 very interesting force and
 
 00:24:47.696 --> 00:24:51.239
 perspective on American thought.
 
 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:53.040
 Yeah, absolutely.
 
 00:24:53.060 --> 00:24:54.361
 I mean, really,
 
 00:24:55.501 --> 00:24:57.863
 it's astounding how much
 
 00:24:58.604 --> 00:24:59.984
 how many of the documents
 
 00:25:00.065 --> 00:25:01.105
 central to the American
 
 00:25:01.144 --> 00:25:04.827
 founding Dickinson had drafted.
 
 00:25:05.748 --> 00:25:06.888
 There was really you know,
 
 00:25:07.568 --> 00:25:08.970
 I've been trying to think recently,
 
 00:25:09.009 --> 00:25:10.851
 like what I really can't
 
 00:25:10.871 --> 00:25:11.932
 think of any major
 
 00:25:13.394 --> 00:25:14.414
 aspect of the American
 
 00:25:14.454 --> 00:25:15.455
 founding that Dickinson
 
 00:25:15.476 --> 00:25:16.876
 didn't have something to do
 
 00:25:16.916 --> 00:25:19.538
 with and have something to say about.
 
 00:25:19.999 --> 00:25:21.280
 And he was just kind of
 
 00:25:21.381 --> 00:25:22.561
 everywhere all the time.
 
 00:25:22.582 --> 00:25:23.602
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:23.622 --> 00:25:24.403
 And very effective too.
 
 00:25:24.423 --> 00:25:24.603
 I mean,
 
 00:25:24.623 --> 00:25:26.144
 he's also at the Constitutional
 
 00:25:26.163 --> 00:25:28.226
 Convention where he's one
 
 00:25:28.365 --> 00:25:30.627
 of the folks pushing for
 
 00:25:31.028 --> 00:25:32.009
 the New Jersey plan,
 
 00:25:32.028 --> 00:25:33.250
 not because he sees it as
 
 00:25:33.329 --> 00:25:35.031
 perfect or wants to preserve the articles,
 
 00:25:35.071 --> 00:25:35.291
 but he
 
 00:25:36.012 --> 00:25:37.193
 sees what the nationalists
 
 00:25:37.233 --> 00:25:38.555
 are doing is going to turn
 
 00:25:38.595 --> 00:25:39.895
 people off completely.
 
 00:25:40.556 --> 00:25:41.136
 Well, actually,
 
 00:25:41.477 --> 00:25:43.137
 he was not in favor of
 
 00:25:43.258 --> 00:25:44.519
 either the Virginia Plan or
 
 00:25:44.558 --> 00:25:45.440
 the New Jersey Plan.
 
 00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:47.480
 And this is, I think,
 
 00:25:47.602 --> 00:25:50.463
 one of the sort of
 
 00:25:50.503 --> 00:25:53.445
 astounding failures of history
 
 00:25:53.746 --> 00:25:55.247
 you know, the writing of history,
 
 00:25:55.987 --> 00:25:57.228
 is that Dickinson was
 
 00:25:57.387 --> 00:25:59.470
 actually the person who
 
 00:25:59.670 --> 00:26:01.471
 first proposed what became
 
 00:26:01.510 --> 00:26:02.872
 the Connecticut Compromise.
 
 00:26:03.271 --> 00:26:06.253
 So he started saying like, look, you know,
 
 00:26:06.433 --> 00:26:12.157
 we need the representation to be both
 
 00:26:12.878 --> 00:26:14.259
 proportional in one house
 
 00:26:14.520 --> 00:26:15.862
 and equal in the other house.
 
 00:26:16.123 --> 00:26:17.344
 And he had a vision.
 
 00:26:17.585 --> 00:26:18.685
 He'd actually been talking
 
 00:26:18.766 --> 00:26:20.008
 since the farmer's letters
 
 00:26:20.327 --> 00:26:23.352
 about this idea of divided sovereignty.
 
 00:26:24.032 --> 00:26:27.116
 Now, most Englishmen, most Britons,
 
 00:26:29.398 --> 00:26:30.259
 They didn't believe that
 
 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:32.041
 there could be like what
 
 00:26:32.061 --> 00:26:33.682
 they call a state within a state.
 
 00:26:34.183 --> 00:26:36.125
 And Dickinson actually was
 
 00:26:36.826 --> 00:26:38.426
 suggesting as early as
 
 00:26:38.487 --> 00:26:41.049
 seventeen sixty seven that
 
 00:26:41.089 --> 00:26:44.071
 there could be a state within a state.
 
 00:26:44.092 --> 00:26:46.294
 So an American state within
 
 00:26:46.453 --> 00:26:47.575
 a British state.
 
 00:26:48.155 --> 00:26:49.896
 And and then he he
 
 00:26:50.817 --> 00:26:52.839
 started refining that idea
 
 00:26:53.280 --> 00:26:55.082
 when he saw how poorly the
 
 00:26:55.142 --> 00:26:56.564
 Articles of Confederation
 
 00:26:56.923 --> 00:26:57.984
 were performing.
 
 00:26:58.025 --> 00:26:58.704
 So he had written the
 
 00:26:58.746 --> 00:26:59.926
 Articles of Confederation
 
 00:27:00.186 --> 00:27:01.087
 with a strong central
 
 00:27:01.127 --> 00:27:02.429
 government and the state
 
 00:27:02.469 --> 00:27:04.250
 subordinated to that government.
 
 00:27:04.990 --> 00:27:06.593
 But that's not how it was passed.
 
 00:27:06.692 --> 00:27:08.734
 And America under the
 
 00:27:08.775 --> 00:27:09.836
 Articles of Confederation
 
 00:27:09.875 --> 00:27:10.936
 was not functioning.
 
 00:27:12.037 --> 00:27:14.837
 So in the early seventeen eighties,
 
 00:27:14.877 --> 00:27:17.817
 he started describing what
 
 00:27:17.877 --> 00:27:19.538
 he saw as the relationship
 
 00:27:19.578 --> 00:27:20.398
 between the central
 
 00:27:20.419 --> 00:27:22.798
 government and the state governments.
 
 00:27:23.038 --> 00:27:25.519
 And he described it as a solar system.
 
 00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:26.799
 So with the central
 
 00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:28.119
 government like the sun and
 
 00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:29.599
 the states revolving around
 
 00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:30.461
 it like planets.
 
 00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:31.740
 And so he brought this
 
 00:27:31.820 --> 00:27:32.780
 metaphor to the
 
 00:27:32.820 --> 00:27:34.181
 Constitutional Convention.
 
 00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:37.422
 And when he said that there should be
 
 00:27:38.001 --> 00:27:39.663
 this representation in one
 
 00:27:39.723 --> 00:27:41.365
 house as proportional and
 
 00:27:41.385 --> 00:27:42.487
 the other one equal.
 
 00:27:43.728 --> 00:27:46.131
 But his colleagues didn't
 
 00:27:46.151 --> 00:27:49.994
 really hear him and he kept trying,
 
 00:27:50.035 --> 00:27:51.536
 but then eventually they
 
 00:27:51.556 --> 00:27:55.660
 went away and the committee
 
 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:56.461
 that came up with the
 
 00:27:56.500 --> 00:27:57.182
 so-called Connecticut
 
 00:27:57.281 --> 00:27:58.242
 Compromise came back with
 
 00:27:58.262 --> 00:28:00.444
 the exact same proposal that he had made.
 
 00:28:00.585 --> 00:28:00.746
 Yeah.
 
 00:28:01.413 --> 00:28:02.015
 That's interesting.
 
 00:28:02.675 --> 00:28:04.578
 And so he plays a very active role there.
 
 00:28:04.598 --> 00:28:05.559
 And what happens during the
 
 00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:06.961
 ratification process?
 
 00:28:07.142 --> 00:28:08.625
 What kind of role does he play there?
 
 00:28:09.337 --> 00:28:09.718
 Yeah,
 
 00:28:09.738 --> 00:28:11.759
 so he had to leave the convention
 
 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:13.641
 early because he was very
 
 00:28:13.701 --> 00:28:14.641
 sick for most of it.
 
 00:28:15.201 --> 00:28:17.042
 But he regained his health enough to,
 
 00:28:18.884 --> 00:28:20.785
 he was asked to write some
 
 00:28:20.845 --> 00:28:24.346
 letters to argue for ratification.
 
 00:28:24.847 --> 00:28:26.608
 And well, actually,
 
 00:28:26.628 --> 00:28:27.849
 I can't remember if he was
 
 00:28:27.990 --> 00:28:29.170
 asked or if he took it upon himself.
 
 00:28:29.250 --> 00:28:29.790
 But in any case,
 
 00:28:30.070 --> 00:28:31.652
 he wrote nine letters under
 
 00:28:31.672 --> 00:28:32.732
 the pen name Fabius.
 
 00:28:33.192 --> 00:28:34.394
 And these were published
 
 00:28:35.094 --> 00:28:36.494
 around the states.
 
 00:28:37.496 --> 00:28:38.596
 And they actually had a much
 
 00:28:38.676 --> 00:28:40.877
 wider reach than the Federalist Papers,
 
 00:28:40.917 --> 00:28:42.298
 which are so famous today,
 
 00:28:42.338 --> 00:28:43.740
 which were only really
 
 00:28:43.780 --> 00:28:44.861
 published in New York and
 
 00:28:45.021 --> 00:28:46.643
 only directed towards the elite.
 
 00:28:47.123 --> 00:28:48.044
 And Dickinson wrote these
 
 00:28:48.084 --> 00:28:48.924
 nine letters that were
 
 00:28:48.964 --> 00:28:51.026
 published in multiple states,
 
 00:28:51.125 --> 00:28:51.987
 and they were directed to
 
 00:28:52.146 --> 00:28:53.607
 ordinary individuals.
 
 00:28:54.108 --> 00:28:58.352
 And they were really seen very favorably,
 
 00:28:58.531 --> 00:29:00.054
 and even George Washington
 
 00:29:00.094 --> 00:29:03.236
 praised them as being very useful.
 
 00:29:03.256 --> 00:29:03.936
 Yeah.
 
 00:29:04.679 --> 00:29:05.599
 And Fabius, of course,
 
 00:29:05.619 --> 00:29:07.299
 is a pen name from ancient
 
 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:09.000
 Rome that she's using.
 
 00:29:09.902 --> 00:29:10.582
 Yes, yes,
 
 00:29:11.142 --> 00:29:12.403
 it's a pen name from ancient Rome.
 
 00:29:12.843 --> 00:29:16.085
 And Washington was also
 
 00:29:16.244 --> 00:29:18.205
 called the American Fabius.
 
 00:29:18.566 --> 00:29:20.366
 But Dickinson, you know,
 
 00:29:20.707 --> 00:29:24.689
 so Fabius was known for being cautious.
 
 00:29:25.249 --> 00:29:26.950
 And I think that's generally
 
 00:29:27.029 --> 00:29:28.971
 what Americans, if they know Fabius,
 
 00:29:29.010 --> 00:29:30.051
 they kind of take it away.
 
 00:29:30.471 --> 00:29:31.893
 uh, the caution away,
 
 00:29:32.292 --> 00:29:33.913
 but actually Fabius was a
 
 00:29:33.993 --> 00:29:36.174
 really great name for Dickinson.
 
 00:29:36.214 --> 00:29:36.715
 And I, and,
 
 00:29:36.816 --> 00:29:38.936
 and the reason he chose it is because, um,
 
 00:29:39.317 --> 00:29:41.018
 Fabius was also a master
 
 00:29:41.097 --> 00:29:43.839
 strategist and was actually, uh,
 
 00:29:44.140 --> 00:29:45.221
 someone who won.
 
 00:29:45.794 --> 00:29:47.153
 through sort of guerrilla
 
 00:29:47.213 --> 00:29:48.914
 warfare tactics and
 
 00:29:49.255 --> 00:29:50.575
 unconventional tactics.
 
 00:29:50.835 --> 00:29:52.914
 And that really described Dickinson.
 
 00:29:53.796 --> 00:29:56.056
 Dickinson was very much, I mean,
 
 00:29:56.175 --> 00:29:58.115
 he was like a chess master,
 
 00:29:58.436 --> 00:30:00.156
 sort of manipulating the
 
 00:30:00.176 --> 00:30:01.856
 various factions in order
 
 00:30:01.896 --> 00:30:03.096
 to get them to go in the
 
 00:30:03.136 --> 00:30:04.817
 direction he wanted them to go.
 
 00:30:05.077 --> 00:30:05.538
 Right.
 
 00:30:05.577 --> 00:30:06.857
 We're talking with Jane Calvert,
 
 00:30:07.038 --> 00:30:08.659
 author of Penman of the Founding,
 
 00:30:08.679 --> 00:30:10.598
 a biography of John Dickinson.
 
 00:30:11.508 --> 00:30:15.233
 So what happens then to his legacy?
 
 00:30:15.273 --> 00:30:15.473
 I mean,
 
 00:30:15.493 --> 00:30:17.036
 we've talked about his relationship
 
 00:30:17.076 --> 00:30:18.719
 with Franklin, which
 
 00:30:19.275 --> 00:30:20.996
 wasn't that good and then
 
 00:30:21.195 --> 00:30:23.196
 franklin becomes of course
 
 00:30:23.237 --> 00:30:24.698
 the american model and of
 
 00:30:24.758 --> 00:30:26.759
 course then he's the one he
 
 00:30:26.858 --> 00:30:28.078
 proposes the convention why
 
 00:30:28.098 --> 00:30:28.880
 don't we have one house
 
 00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:30.119
 represent the population
 
 00:30:30.141 --> 00:30:30.941
 the other represent the
 
 00:30:30.980 --> 00:30:31.901
 states and no one listens
 
 00:30:31.921 --> 00:30:33.461
 to that but now connecticut
 
 00:30:33.481 --> 00:30:34.403
 of course calls itself the
 
 00:30:34.442 --> 00:30:35.942
 constitution state for that
 
 00:30:36.443 --> 00:30:38.484
 so why doesn't his
 
 00:30:38.605 --> 00:30:41.205
 reputation uh last the way
 
 00:30:41.806 --> 00:30:43.146
 others like you know we
 
 00:30:43.166 --> 00:30:44.347
 know reputations have a way
 
 00:30:44.407 --> 00:30:46.449
 of rising and falling and
 
 00:30:46.628 --> 00:30:47.848
 his I think you're just
 
 00:30:47.868 --> 00:30:48.970
 beginning to bring back
 
 00:30:50.702 --> 00:30:52.984
 Yeah, so just to be clear, I mean,
 
 00:30:53.025 --> 00:30:53.766
 Dickinson,
 
 00:30:54.946 --> 00:30:58.711
 very few people cared at all
 
 00:30:58.871 --> 00:31:00.913
 that he did not vote on or
 
 00:31:00.933 --> 00:31:01.753
 sign the Declaration of
 
 00:31:01.794 --> 00:31:03.296
 Independence in his day,
 
 00:31:03.316 --> 00:31:04.837
 because the Declaration was
 
 00:31:04.938 --> 00:31:06.439
 not seen as this kind of
 
 00:31:06.499 --> 00:31:07.559
 American scripture,
 
 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:09.962
 as historians have called it,
 
 00:31:10.623 --> 00:31:12.826
 until the early nineteenth century.
 
 00:31:13.486 --> 00:31:14.646
 And Dickinson really
 
 00:31:14.707 --> 00:31:17.230
 retained his a good portion
 
 00:31:17.269 --> 00:31:19.291
 of his popularity, even celebrity.
 
 00:31:20.212 --> 00:31:22.615
 And he was known.
 
 00:31:22.634 --> 00:31:23.935
 And even after he retired,
 
 00:31:24.356 --> 00:31:26.038
 the public just clamored
 
 00:31:26.077 --> 00:31:27.759
 for him to return to office.
 
 00:31:28.861 --> 00:31:29.560
 And he had to sort of
 
 00:31:29.902 --> 00:31:33.744
 decline to be elected multiple times.
 
 00:31:35.207 --> 00:31:36.048
 When he died,
 
 00:31:37.148 --> 00:31:40.231
 the celebrations of his life
 
 00:31:41.012 --> 00:31:44.076
 were such that only George
 
 00:31:44.135 --> 00:31:46.317
 Washington before him,
 
 00:31:47.318 --> 00:31:50.241
 only those public displays
 
 00:31:50.281 --> 00:31:53.065
 of grief were more than Dickinson's.
 
 00:31:54.625 --> 00:31:55.807
 Why don't we know him today?
 
 00:31:56.228 --> 00:31:57.990
 That's the million-dollar question.
 
 00:31:58.990 --> 00:32:00.231
 There are a few reasons.
 
 00:32:01.472 --> 00:32:03.355
 First and probably easiest
 
 00:32:03.375 --> 00:32:04.596
 to understand is just that
 
 00:32:04.635 --> 00:32:06.057
 his papers weren't available.
 
 00:32:07.417 --> 00:32:08.680
 He did not take a whole lot
 
 00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:10.000
 of care with his own papers.
 
 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.382
 He wasn't obsessed with his
 
 00:32:11.422 --> 00:32:14.404
 legacy the way other big
 
 00:32:14.444 --> 00:32:15.365
 name founders were.
 
 00:32:15.905 --> 00:32:18.167
 And so his papers actually
 
 00:32:18.208 --> 00:32:19.167
 did not show up in the
 
 00:32:19.228 --> 00:32:20.489
 archives until the early
 
 00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:22.289
 twentieth century.
 
 00:32:22.730 --> 00:32:24.731
 And so there was not very
 
 00:32:26.353 --> 00:32:27.294
 there weren't the materials
 
 00:32:27.334 --> 00:32:29.795
 to be able to write a biography.
 
 00:32:29.835 --> 00:32:32.217
 So that that's just one very obvious,
 
 00:32:32.336 --> 00:32:33.357
 easy reason to understand,
 
 00:32:33.377 --> 00:32:34.438
 because every other major
 
 00:32:34.458 --> 00:32:38.760
 founder has had his papers published in,
 
 00:32:39.040 --> 00:32:39.721
 you know,
 
 00:32:40.241 --> 00:32:42.703
 tens of volumes um so
 
 00:32:42.903 --> 00:32:43.964
 anytime someone wants to
 
 00:32:43.984 --> 00:32:44.986
 write a biography they just
 
 00:32:45.026 --> 00:32:46.027
 have to open those up and
 
 00:32:46.106 --> 00:32:47.167
 all the source materials
 
 00:32:47.208 --> 00:32:48.308
 right there okay so
 
 00:32:48.328 --> 00:32:49.349
 dickinson did not have that
 
 00:32:50.171 --> 00:32:52.393
 but then I think um if then
 
 00:32:52.532 --> 00:32:55.115
 then the second reason I
 
 00:32:55.154 --> 00:32:55.935
 think he's not known is
 
 00:32:55.976 --> 00:32:57.376
 because um people did not
 
 00:32:57.457 --> 00:32:58.898
 understand his quakerism
 
 00:32:59.338 --> 00:33:01.540
 and to be clear he was not a quaker
 
 00:33:01.941 --> 00:33:04.701
 but he embraced so much of
 
 00:33:04.801 --> 00:33:06.982
 the Quaker sort of political thought.
 
 00:33:07.462 --> 00:33:08.403
 And that's just not
 
 00:33:08.443 --> 00:33:10.585
 something that Americans
 
 00:33:10.605 --> 00:33:12.746
 have not generally put a
 
 00:33:12.826 --> 00:33:16.146
 lot of credence with the
 
 00:33:16.166 --> 00:33:17.928
 religion of the founders.
 
 00:33:18.488 --> 00:33:20.628
 And Quakerism is a dissenting religion,
 
 00:33:21.288 --> 00:33:22.930
 so it was at odds with the
 
 00:33:23.609 --> 00:33:25.810
 mainstream of American religion,
 
 00:33:25.851 --> 00:33:27.751
 which was usually Calvinism.
 
 00:33:28.991 --> 00:33:29.972
 So that was one thing,
 
 00:33:30.012 --> 00:33:30.894
 just sort of confusion
 
 00:33:30.933 --> 00:33:32.954
 about what Dickinson stood
 
 00:33:32.994 --> 00:33:35.557
 for and why he didn't sign
 
 00:33:35.596 --> 00:33:36.778
 the Declaration of Independence.
 
 00:33:37.358 --> 00:33:39.059
 But then I think if there's
 
 00:33:39.299 --> 00:33:42.321
 one single biggest reason,
 
 00:33:43.242 --> 00:33:45.345
 I would say it was probably John Adams.
 
 00:33:46.025 --> 00:33:48.547
 And so John Adams was he
 
 00:33:48.606 --> 00:33:49.788
 started out a fan of
 
 00:33:49.847 --> 00:33:51.128
 Dickinson's like pretty
 
 00:33:51.169 --> 00:33:52.690
 much everybody else when he
 
 00:33:53.390 --> 00:33:54.211
 when he joined the
 
 00:33:54.250 --> 00:33:55.991
 resistance movement in in
 
 00:33:56.031 --> 00:33:57.012
 seventeen seventy four.
 
 00:33:57.053 --> 00:33:58.953
 Dickinson had been doing it for ten years,
 
 00:33:59.654 --> 00:34:00.875
 more than ten years at that point.
 
 00:34:01.476 --> 00:34:02.576
 Yeah, about ten years.
 
 00:34:04.135 --> 00:34:05.998
 And Adams came to Philadelphia, you know,
 
 00:34:06.018 --> 00:34:07.198
 kind of starstruck and
 
 00:34:07.219 --> 00:34:08.338
 wanting to meet the famous
 
 00:34:08.579 --> 00:34:10.039
 Pennsylvania farmer and
 
 00:34:10.059 --> 00:34:11.742
 just kind of practically swooned,
 
 00:34:11.762 --> 00:34:13.623
 you know, writing about Dickinson.
 
 00:34:14.143 --> 00:34:16.405
 But then when Dickinson
 
 00:34:16.445 --> 00:34:17.885
 joined the first Congress
 
 00:34:18.385 --> 00:34:20.266
 and his writing started to
 
 00:34:20.306 --> 00:34:21.648
 supplant Adams' writings
 
 00:34:21.688 --> 00:34:22.528
 for the first Congress,
 
 00:34:22.909 --> 00:34:25.630
 Adams became annoyed and
 
 00:34:25.690 --> 00:34:27.152
 then very jealous.
 
 00:34:27.331 --> 00:34:29.273
 And if you know anything about Adams,
 
 00:34:29.793 --> 00:34:32.014
 he tended to be sort of a, you know,
 
 00:34:32.034 --> 00:34:33.155
 a very sort of jealous,
 
 00:34:34.295 --> 00:34:36.036
 kind of vindictive character.
 
 00:34:37.577 --> 00:34:38.677
 And so at that point,
 
 00:34:38.817 --> 00:34:41.617
 he kind of made it his goal
 
 00:34:41.677 --> 00:34:44.018
 in life to take down Dickinson.
 
 00:34:44.557 --> 00:34:50.438
 And where he had most success was in,
 
 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:54.300
 so Dickinson,
 
 00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:57.021
 he controlled both the First
 
 00:34:57.081 --> 00:34:58.161
 and the Second Continental
 
 00:34:58.221 --> 00:35:01.262
 Congress really without challenge.
 
 00:35:02.722 --> 00:35:05.503
 And so he he said in
 
 00:35:05.543 --> 00:35:06.983
 seventeen seventy five that
 
 00:35:07.184 --> 00:35:08.204
 we should be you know,
 
 00:35:08.264 --> 00:35:09.423
 America should be preparing
 
 00:35:09.764 --> 00:35:11.905
 for peaceful negotiations
 
 00:35:12.264 --> 00:35:13.985
 and for war simultaneously.
 
 00:35:14.385 --> 00:35:15.507
 Adams was one hundred
 
 00:35:15.527 --> 00:35:19.027
 percent convinced of that.
 
 00:35:19.248 --> 00:35:20.668
 And and and, you know,
 
 00:35:20.748 --> 00:35:23.148
 he he he voted for both the
 
 00:35:23.228 --> 00:35:24.909
 olive branch petition and
 
 00:35:25.130 --> 00:35:26.530
 the declaration on taking up arms,
 
 00:35:26.590 --> 00:35:27.731
 both of which Dickinson wrote.
 
 00:35:29.148 --> 00:35:30.869
 And he was fine with all those things.
 
 00:35:31.911 --> 00:35:33.492
 But then after all that was done,
 
 00:35:34.034 --> 00:35:35.034
 Adams started to get
 
 00:35:35.094 --> 00:35:36.456
 irritated with his fellow
 
 00:35:36.496 --> 00:35:38.239
 Massachusetts delegates and
 
 00:35:38.298 --> 00:35:39.880
 he started lashing out at
 
 00:35:40.240 --> 00:35:41.362
 everybody around him.
 
 00:35:41.862 --> 00:35:44.445
 And he wrote this now famous
 
 00:35:44.786 --> 00:35:47.228
 or infamous letter calling Dickinson
 
 00:35:47.568 --> 00:35:49.710
 a great fortune and piddling genius.
 
 00:35:49.952 --> 00:35:52.675
 And this letter was
 
 00:35:53.094 --> 00:35:55.356
 intercepted by the British and published.
 
 00:35:55.898 --> 00:35:59.282
 And so everybody knew.
 
 00:35:59.561 --> 00:36:02.144
 And they actually ostracized Adams,
 
 00:36:02.565 --> 00:36:04.186
 because Dickinson was
 
 00:36:04.226 --> 00:36:06.148
 someone that everybody
 
 00:36:06.268 --> 00:36:07.110
 loved and respected.
 
 00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:11.793
 But then Adams actually, he recanted.
 
 00:36:11.853 --> 00:36:12.753
 He took it back.
 
 00:36:13.934 --> 00:36:15.795
 He basically said, oh, well,
 
 00:36:15.896 --> 00:36:17.277
 I was just in a bad mood,
 
 00:36:17.436 --> 00:36:20.559
 and I know he's actually very smart,
 
 00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:24.181
 and he's very patriotic, and so on.
 
 00:36:26.751 --> 00:36:28.733
 Flash forward to, I mean,
 
 00:36:30.695 --> 00:36:32.016
 Adams was still very,
 
 00:36:32.597 --> 00:36:33.798
 very jealous of Dickinson
 
 00:36:34.059 --> 00:36:35.681
 and actually had credited
 
 00:36:37.081 --> 00:36:39.625
 Dickinson and his wife for
 
 00:36:41.206 --> 00:36:44.230
 Adams losing reelection to president.
 
 00:36:45.190 --> 00:36:46.690
 And so that's sort of amazing.
 
 00:36:47.030 --> 00:36:48.271
 But then in eighteen oh five,
 
 00:36:48.391 --> 00:36:50.391
 he Adams recounted this
 
 00:36:50.431 --> 00:36:53.353
 whole episode that where he
 
 00:36:53.393 --> 00:36:55.353
 wrote that piddling genius letter.
 
 00:36:55.934 --> 00:36:59.375
 And he kind of fabricated a story that,
 
 00:36:59.414 --> 00:36:59.856
 you know,
 
 00:37:00.036 --> 00:37:02.436
 that he he had that he and
 
 00:37:02.456 --> 00:37:05.077
 Dickinson had had this this big, you know,
 
 00:37:05.157 --> 00:37:05.938
 confrontation.
 
 00:37:06.918 --> 00:37:09.199
 And so he was frustrated and
 
 00:37:09.260 --> 00:37:12.202
 called Dickinson this name.
 
 00:37:12.503 --> 00:37:14.445
 But there's not really any
 
 00:37:14.525 --> 00:37:16.126
 evidence from the time that
 
 00:37:16.226 --> 00:37:17.969
 this confrontation happened.
 
 00:37:17.989 --> 00:37:19.210
 I mean, maybe it did,
 
 00:37:19.250 --> 00:37:20.570
 but Adams didn't mention it.
 
 00:37:20.670 --> 00:37:21.711
 No one mentioned it.
 
 00:37:22.313 --> 00:37:24.315
 And so it's very doubtful
 
 00:37:24.335 --> 00:37:25.536
 whether it actually happened.
 
 00:37:26.076 --> 00:37:27.297
 And then...
 
 00:37:28.097 --> 00:37:29.518
 When the historians in the
 
 00:37:29.619 --> 00:37:30.639
 early nineteenth century,
 
 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:31.880
 particularly one historian
 
 00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:32.780
 named George Bancroft,
 
 00:37:33.501 --> 00:37:34.782
 when he wrote his
 
 00:37:35.101 --> 00:37:38.123
 multi-volume history of the
 
 00:37:38.164 --> 00:37:39.025
 American Revolution,
 
 00:37:39.385 --> 00:37:42.467
 he drew on Adams' diary.
 
 00:37:43.106 --> 00:37:45.427
 And he also drew on Jefferson,
 
 00:37:45.728 --> 00:37:46.809
 and Jefferson had actually
 
 00:37:46.849 --> 00:37:48.150
 taken credit for the
 
 00:37:48.190 --> 00:37:49.550
 Declaration on Taking Up Arms,
 
 00:37:49.570 --> 00:37:50.311
 which Dickinson,
 
 00:37:51.072 --> 00:37:52.132
 he drafted the belligerent
 
 00:37:52.172 --> 00:37:52.793
 language in that.
 
 00:37:53.574 --> 00:37:56.365
 So basically, mainly Adams,
 
 00:37:56.405 --> 00:37:57.913
 but also Jefferson,
 
 00:37:59.563 --> 00:38:01.804
 They fabricated stories and
 
 00:38:01.844 --> 00:38:03.364
 took credit away from Dickinson.
 
 00:38:03.784 --> 00:38:05.385
 And historians not having
 
 00:38:05.485 --> 00:38:07.065
 access to Dickinson's own
 
 00:38:07.567 --> 00:38:09.766
 papers just took everything
 
 00:38:10.146 --> 00:38:11.487
 Jefferson and Adams said at
 
 00:38:11.527 --> 00:38:12.967
 face value and painted
 
 00:38:13.007 --> 00:38:14.829
 Dickinson as this sort of
 
 00:38:15.108 --> 00:38:17.429
 disloyal and effeminate
 
 00:38:17.869 --> 00:38:20.750
 foil to the manly Atlas of Independence,
 
 00:38:20.771 --> 00:38:21.471
 John Adams.
 
 00:38:22.030 --> 00:38:23.871
 And then David McCullough picked that up.
 
 00:38:24.431 --> 00:38:26.072
 And then the HBO miniseries
 
 00:38:26.132 --> 00:38:26.891
 picked that up.
 
 00:38:27.072 --> 00:38:28.813
 And so it just sort of snowballed.
 
 00:38:29.152 --> 00:38:30.253
 Well, Jane,
 
 00:38:30.273 --> 00:38:31.333
 can we talk a little bit about
 
 00:38:31.934 --> 00:38:33.114
 how we're correcting that
 
 00:38:33.155 --> 00:38:34.556
 by publishing the complete
 
 00:38:34.576 --> 00:38:35.617
 writings and selected
 
 00:38:35.657 --> 00:38:37.077
 correspondence of John Dickinson,
 
 00:38:37.097 --> 00:38:38.298
 the John Dickinson Project,
 
 00:38:38.338 --> 00:38:40.219
 and how that came into being and what
 
 00:38:41.889 --> 00:38:43.050
 What's happened?
 
 00:38:43.090 --> 00:38:43.309
 Well,
 
 00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:46.731
 so when I finished my first book on
 
 00:38:46.791 --> 00:38:47.371
 Dickinson,
 
 00:38:47.572 --> 00:38:49.452
 I realized that somebody really
 
 00:38:49.492 --> 00:38:51.454
 needed to publish his
 
 00:38:51.474 --> 00:38:52.414
 writings because there were
 
 00:38:52.574 --> 00:38:53.434
 so many of them.
 
 00:38:53.974 --> 00:38:56.876
 And most people had no idea
 
 00:38:57.396 --> 00:38:58.416
 that Dickinson had written
 
 00:38:58.657 --> 00:39:00.798
 these seminal documents and
 
 00:39:00.878 --> 00:39:01.818
 had written so much.
 
 00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:04.139
 And so I didn't much want to
 
 00:39:04.179 --> 00:39:05.521
 become a documentary editor
 
 00:39:05.740 --> 00:39:07.422
 because it's really the hardest thing
 
 00:39:07.621 --> 00:39:09.722
 that anyone can do in the
 
 00:39:09.742 --> 00:39:10.663
 historical profession.
 
 00:39:11.262 --> 00:39:15.284
 And so, but I started the project in, in,
 
 00:39:16.264 --> 00:39:18.804
 and, you know, we've been going,
 
 00:39:20.045 --> 00:39:21.606
 gaining momentum and,
 
 00:39:22.286 --> 00:39:24.286
 and we have an amazing team
 
 00:39:24.726 --> 00:39:26.108
 and we're about to, you know,
 
 00:39:26.128 --> 00:39:28.668
 publish volume four of about thirteen.
 
 00:39:30.108 --> 00:39:31.188
 The challenge, however,
 
 00:39:31.369 --> 00:39:37.110
 is that the sort of the, the,
 
 00:39:38.652 --> 00:39:41.112
 elite white male figures are
 
 00:39:41.152 --> 00:39:43.235
 kind of out of vogue in the academy.
 
 00:39:43.755 --> 00:39:47.496
 And in fact, the Dickinson,
 
 00:39:47.737 --> 00:39:48.637
 the John Dickinson Writings
 
 00:39:48.657 --> 00:39:51.318
 Project was just denied renewed funding,
 
 00:39:51.378 --> 00:39:52.360
 even though, you know,
 
 00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:53.579
 we've made just remarkable
 
 00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:54.880
 progress and fulfilled all
 
 00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:56.001
 of our performance objectives.
 
 00:39:56.041 --> 00:39:58.623
 But one of the federal agencies that funds
 
 00:39:59.643 --> 00:40:01.365
 these projects has sort of
 
 00:40:01.445 --> 00:40:04.889
 moved away from funding the
 
 00:40:04.929 --> 00:40:07.211
 founders papers projects.
 
 00:40:07.552 --> 00:40:08.373
 And so, you know,
 
 00:40:08.454 --> 00:40:09.034
 now we're kind of
 
 00:40:09.074 --> 00:40:10.715
 scrambling to try to raise
 
 00:40:10.755 --> 00:40:13.820
 money to retain our, you know,
 
 00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:15.240
 our wonderful staff who are
 
 00:40:15.260 --> 00:40:17.764
 doing such great work.
 
 00:40:17.804 --> 00:40:19.166
 So where is the project based?
 
 00:40:20.391 --> 00:40:22.132
 Well, it's sort of, you know,
 
 00:40:22.172 --> 00:40:24.813
 technically based with me.
 
 00:40:25.693 --> 00:40:28.094
 It's mine and wherever I go,
 
 00:40:28.414 --> 00:40:29.474
 it comes with me.
 
 00:40:30.916 --> 00:40:32.936
 It is actually at the moment
 
 00:40:33.777 --> 00:40:35.518
 based at the University of Delaware,
 
 00:40:35.838 --> 00:40:38.440
 but we're going to be transitioning to,
 
 00:40:38.500 --> 00:40:39.980
 you know,
 
 00:40:40.059 --> 00:40:42.280
 to a new host institution before
 
 00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:42.862
 too long.
 
 00:40:42.961 --> 00:40:45.322
 There have been, unfortunately,
 
 00:40:45.722 --> 00:40:46.943
 staffing and budget cuts at
 
 00:40:47.003 --> 00:40:47.943
 University of Delaware.
 
 00:40:49.184 --> 00:40:52.244
 But we will hopefully
 
 00:40:52.284 --> 00:40:56.965
 continue and we just need
 
 00:40:56.985 --> 00:40:58.405
 to make sure we can secure
 
 00:40:58.726 --> 00:41:00.246
 funding because documentary
 
 00:41:00.306 --> 00:41:02.246
 editing is extraordinarily
 
 00:41:02.286 --> 00:41:03.226
 difficult and labor
 
 00:41:03.266 --> 00:41:07.347
 intensive and Dickinson's writings are
 
 00:41:08.327 --> 00:41:09.648
 really the most challenging
 
 00:41:09.688 --> 00:41:10.869
 of any of the founders
 
 00:41:11.530 --> 00:41:13.771
 because of his education
 
 00:41:14.050 --> 00:41:16.831
 and his knowledge in the
 
 00:41:16.851 --> 00:41:20.114
 law and also his messy, messy drafts,
 
 00:41:20.134 --> 00:41:21.434
 which are very difficult to read.
 
 00:41:23.434 --> 00:41:24.795
 That's an amazing project.
 
 00:41:24.956 --> 00:41:26.936
 Let's hope we can keep it going.
 
 00:41:26.956 --> 00:41:27.978
 It sounds like something
 
 00:41:28.057 --> 00:41:30.978
 well worth pursuing that
 
 00:41:31.018 --> 00:41:32.480
 the nine volumes that are
 
 00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:33.659
 out there waiting,
 
 00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:35.641
 tell a big story about the revolution,
 
 00:41:35.661 --> 00:41:36.742
 the constitution,
 
 00:41:37.882 --> 00:41:38.242
 Adams,
 
 00:41:38.322 --> 00:41:40.623
 the Washington Adams Jefferson Presidency,
 
 00:41:41.704 --> 00:41:42.644
 as well as what's happening
 
 00:41:42.664 --> 00:41:43.864
 in Delaware and Pennsylvania.
 
 00:41:44.646 --> 00:41:45.425
 Yes, absolutely.
 
 00:41:46.206 --> 00:41:48.987
 So we've been talking with Jane Calvert,
 
 00:41:49.068 --> 00:41:50.548
 who is the author of Penman
 
 00:41:50.568 --> 00:41:51.128
 of the Founding,
 
 00:41:51.148 --> 00:41:53.670
 a Biography of John Dickinson, historian,
 
 00:41:53.730 --> 00:41:55.010
 documentary editor,
 
 00:41:55.150 --> 00:41:56.452
 the director and chief
 
 00:41:56.512 --> 00:41:57.231
 editor of the John
 
 00:41:57.271 --> 00:41:58.693
 Dickinson Writings Project.
 
 00:41:59.492 --> 00:42:01.054
 So thank you so much for joining us, Jane.
 
 00:42:01.074 --> 00:42:02.335
 It's been really fun to talk
 
 00:42:02.375 --> 00:42:03.434
 to you about John Dickinson.
 
 00:42:04.115 --> 00:42:04.856
 Yeah, thank you so much.
 
 00:42:04.876 --> 00:42:06.257
 It's been a lot of fun.
 
 00:42:06.277 --> 00:42:06.697
 Great book.
 
 00:42:07.396 --> 00:42:09.038
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:42:09.057 --> 00:42:09.757
 our producer,
 
 00:42:09.918 --> 00:42:11.639
 and our listeners in and
 
 00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:12.621
 around the world.
 
 00:42:12.681 --> 00:42:13.862
 And every week I thank folks
 
 00:42:13.882 --> 00:42:14.782
 in different parts of the
 
 00:42:14.822 --> 00:42:16.643
 world who are regularly tuning in.
 
 00:42:16.684 --> 00:42:17.385
 And if you're in one of
 
 00:42:17.405 --> 00:42:18.525
 these places and want some
 
 00:42:18.545 --> 00:42:20.307
 of our Revolution Two-Fifty swag,
 
 00:42:20.327 --> 00:42:21.668
 send Jonathan Lane an email,
 
 00:42:21.708 --> 00:42:23.731
 jlaneatrevolutiontwofifty.org.
 
 00:42:24.411 --> 00:42:25.152
 Or if you're not in one of
 
 00:42:25.172 --> 00:42:26.193
 these places and just want
 
 00:42:26.213 --> 00:42:26.873
 to get in touch with
 
 00:42:26.913 --> 00:42:27.893
 Jonathan and suggest
 
 00:42:27.914 --> 00:42:28.614
 something you'd like to
 
 00:42:28.635 --> 00:42:30.315
 hear about on the podcast, let him know,
 
 00:42:31.476 --> 00:42:33.739
 jlaneatrevolutiontwofifty.org.
 
 00:42:33.759 --> 00:42:34.280
 So this week,
 
 00:42:34.755 --> 00:42:35.454
 I want to thank our
 
 00:42:35.494 --> 00:42:37.396
 listeners in Prague and in
 
 00:42:38.016 --> 00:42:40.096
 Muang Samut Prakan in Thailand,
 
 00:42:40.235 --> 00:42:42.717
 in Dhaka in Bangladesh, Shaman Jordan,
 
 00:42:42.916 --> 00:42:45.597
 Edinburgh, Scotland, Dublin, Ireland,
 
 00:42:46.197 --> 00:42:48.518
 Vienna, Maine, Coolidge, Arizona,
 
 00:42:48.659 --> 00:42:49.778
 East Hampton here in the
 
 00:42:49.818 --> 00:42:51.759
 Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Uncasville,
 
 00:42:51.778 --> 00:42:52.280
 Connecticut,
 
 00:42:52.300 --> 00:42:53.940
 and all places between and beyond.
 
 00:42:53.980 --> 00:42:54.920
 Thanks for joining us.
 
 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:56.780
 And now we will be piped out
 
 00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:57.800
 on the road to Boston.