Declarations of Independence in the Susquehanna Valley with Christopher Pearl

On July 4, 1776, two hundred miles northwest of Philadelphia, on Indigenous land along the West Branch of the Susquehanna River, a group of colonial squatters declared their independence. They were not alone in their efforts. This bold symbolic gesture was just a small part of a much broader and longer struggle in the Northern Susquehanna River Valley, where diverse peoples, especially Indigenous nations, fought tenaciously to safeguard their lands, sovereignty, and survival.  We talk with Christopher Pearl about his new book, Declarations of Independence:  Indigenous Resilience, Colonial Rivalries, and the Cost of Revolution, which examines this intense struggle among Indigenous Americans, rebellious colonial squatters, opportunistic land speculators, and imperial government agents which shaped the American Revolution.

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:01.496 --> 00:00:02.697
 hello everyone welcome to
 
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 the revolution two fifty
 
 00:00:03.976 --> 00:00:05.878
 podcast I am bob allison I
 
 00:00:05.918 --> 00:00:06.918
 chair the rep two fifty
 
 00:00:06.939 --> 00:00:08.320
 advisory group we are a
 
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 consortium of about seventy
 
 00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:10.980
 groups in massachusetts
 
 00:00:11.021 --> 00:00:12.121
 planning commemorations of
 
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 the beginnings of american
 
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 independence and our guest
 
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 today is christopher pearl
 
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 uh chris pearl is an
 
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 associate professor of
 
 00:00:19.786 --> 00:00:22.086
 history at lycoming college
 
 00:00:22.167 --> 00:00:23.347
 or lycoming college
 
 00:00:23.367 --> 00:00:24.487
 depending on where you're
 
 00:00:24.507 --> 00:00:25.908
 from his first book
 
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 conceived in crisis looks
 
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 at the revolutionary
 
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 creation of an american state
 
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 But his new book is
 
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 Declarations of Independence,
 
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 Indigenous Resilience, Colonial Rivalries,
 
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 and the Cost of Revolution.
 
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 Chris, thanks for joining us.
 
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 Thanks for having me.
 
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 I really appreciate it.
 
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 It's really a great book,
 
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 and it begins on July fourth,
 
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 seventeen seventy six,
 
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 but not in Philadelphia,
 
 00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:48.661
 at Jersey Shore on the
 
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 upper Susquehanna River Valley.
 
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 Can you tell us a bit about
 
 00:00:50.924 --> 00:00:52.865
 what's happening up at Jersey Shore?
 
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 Sure.
 
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 Well, hold on.
 
 00:00:56.277 --> 00:00:58.018
 I'm starting to get the
 
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 emails making noise.
 
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 Sure.
 
 00:01:01.659 --> 00:01:03.159
 On July four, seventeen seventy six.
 
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 So the story goes.
 
 00:01:04.141 --> 00:01:05.180
 So this is, you know, myth,
 
 00:01:05.260 --> 00:01:07.501
 legend or that there's this
 
 00:01:07.602 --> 00:01:08.762
 group of squatters on
 
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 indigenous land between
 
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 Lycoming Creek to the east
 
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 on the west branch of the
 
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 Susquehanna and Pine Creek
 
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 or Great Island to the west
 
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 of Great Islands near
 
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 present day like Lock Haven.
 
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 These group of squatters
 
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 meet under this tree,
 
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 nicknamed by a folklorist
 
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 in the early twentieth century,
 
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 the Tide Otten Elm,
 
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 in which they declare
 
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 independence from Great Britain.
 
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 They supposedly create a document,
 
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 sign the document,
 
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 and they do all this either
 
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 unbeknownst to what's going
 
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 on in Congress about what's
 
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 going on there,
 
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 or there's another part of
 
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 the legend that says, well,
 
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 they're wary that Congress will,
 
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 whether Congress will sign
 
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 a declaration of independence or
 
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 And so they meet together
 
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 under this tree and they
 
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 declare independence.
 
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 And so I opened the book
 
 00:01:59.531 --> 00:02:01.632
 there to sort of say, well,
 
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 what is actually happening?
 
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 Are people actually meeting?
 
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 Is there a declaration?
 
 00:02:05.733 --> 00:02:06.912
 Because it's just really popular.
 
 00:02:06.933 --> 00:02:08.173
 I mean, in the nineteen forties,
 
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 the military comes out and
 
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 they use a mind detector
 
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 searching for this metal
 
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 strong box because of the
 
 00:02:15.655 --> 00:02:16.715
 folklore says that this
 
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 declaration is hidden in a
 
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 metal strong box.
 
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 And there were reenactments of this.
 
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 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
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 Well into the nineteen nineties,
 
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 you had reenactors coming
 
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 on every July fourth
 
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 dressed up in the sort of
 
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 hunting frocks and buckskin pants.
 
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 And these were made by the
 
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 women of the local Baptist church.
 
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 and they marched through the
 
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 town and they'd reenact the signing.
 
 00:02:38.403 --> 00:02:39.503
 In the nineteen sixties,
 
 00:02:39.544 --> 00:02:40.243
 they would have the
 
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 Haudenosaunee or a small
 
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 group of Haudenosaunee
 
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 there to commemorate the
 
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 the sort of declaration of
 
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 the Tiedaten Declaration.
 
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 There's still the Tiedaten
 
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 chapter of the Sons of the
 
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 American Revolution.
 
 00:02:52.407 --> 00:02:53.967
 There's still the Tiedaten
 
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 celebration each July fourth.
 
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 There's just a lot, right?
 
 00:02:58.427 --> 00:02:59.367
 Surroundings in the area.
 
 00:02:59.388 --> 00:02:59.467
 Yeah.
 
 00:02:59.487 --> 00:03:00.487
 So, what's actually happening
 
 00:03:04.385 --> 00:03:06.489
 I mean, you tell the story in the book,
 
 00:03:06.568 --> 00:03:07.509
 and the Haudenosaunee are
 
 00:03:07.530 --> 00:03:09.293
 involved as well as the Susquehanna,
 
 00:03:09.733 --> 00:03:11.134
 the Native people are there.
 
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 I mean,
 
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 you tie in all of these different
 
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 players and agents in this small place,
 
 00:03:17.302 --> 00:03:18.564
 and it's really a microcosm
 
 00:03:18.645 --> 00:03:21.429
 of the story as a whole.
 
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 Yeah.
 
 00:03:22.632 --> 00:03:23.633
 And I think what's I think
 
 00:03:23.652 --> 00:03:24.592
 what's going on is there's
 
 00:03:24.752 --> 00:03:25.913
 there's this what I call in
 
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 the book a diversity of interests.
 
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 They're all looking to not
 
 00:03:29.955 --> 00:03:31.616
 just the West Branch, the Susquehanna,
 
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 but the northern
 
 00:03:32.478 --> 00:03:34.618
 Susquehanna River Valley broadly.
 
 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:36.159
 And that would be from, you know,
 
 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:37.360
 the north branch down the
 
 00:03:37.480 --> 00:03:39.282
 east all the way through the west branch.
 
 00:03:39.581 --> 00:03:40.622
 And so I sort of track that
 
 00:03:40.663 --> 00:03:42.644
 story using these diverse players,
 
 00:03:42.683 --> 00:03:44.406
 speculators, imperial agents,
 
 00:03:45.165 --> 00:03:46.106
 native peoples,
 
 00:03:46.366 --> 00:03:48.169
 squatters to figure out
 
 00:03:48.188 --> 00:03:49.569
 what exactly is going on.
 
 00:03:49.610 --> 00:03:50.991
 So you can contextualize
 
 00:03:51.070 --> 00:03:52.671
 that that moment that that
 
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 of lore in seventy six.
 
 00:03:55.213 --> 00:03:56.474
 And so I think it's a very
 
 00:03:56.514 --> 00:03:57.376
 compelling story.
 
 00:03:57.395 --> 00:03:59.217
 It there's a kernel of sort
 
 00:03:59.236 --> 00:04:01.399
 of like truth to the idea
 
 00:04:01.419 --> 00:04:02.239
 of their meeting on the
 
 00:04:02.258 --> 00:04:03.099
 banks of Pine Creek.
 
 00:04:04.204 --> 00:04:05.466
 But all the other stuff is
 
 00:04:05.506 --> 00:04:08.590
 sort of more lower than you
 
 00:04:08.629 --> 00:04:09.812
 can say in the evidence.
 
 00:04:09.831 --> 00:04:10.993
 The evidence suggests that
 
 00:04:13.456 --> 00:04:15.340
 the fair play settlers was what they call,
 
 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:16.482
 they create this sort of
 
 00:04:16.581 --> 00:04:17.723
 interdependent fair play
 
 00:04:17.764 --> 00:04:18.824
 republic in the West Branch.
 
 00:04:19.665 --> 00:04:20.987
 That they're meeting because
 
 00:04:21.367 --> 00:04:22.708
 they have been included in
 
 00:04:22.747 --> 00:04:23.848
 the resistance movement.
 
 00:04:24.288 --> 00:04:25.209
 The Continental Congress
 
 00:04:25.249 --> 00:04:26.509
 created the association,
 
 00:04:26.528 --> 00:04:27.470
 which created committees.
 
 00:04:28.769 --> 00:04:29.790
 The squatters have been
 
 00:04:29.810 --> 00:04:31.351
 incorporated into those committees,
 
 00:04:31.531 --> 00:04:32.331
 and they were receiving
 
 00:04:32.372 --> 00:04:33.812
 these circular circular
 
 00:04:33.853 --> 00:04:34.952
 letters from Philadelphia
 
 00:04:35.454 --> 00:04:36.774
 in May of seventy six,
 
 00:04:37.014 --> 00:04:37.694
 asking them to come
 
 00:04:37.735 --> 00:04:38.514
 together to debate it.
 
 00:04:39.956 --> 00:04:41.115
 And so for them,
 
 00:04:41.196 --> 00:04:43.096
 that independence that they're debating,
 
 00:04:43.177 --> 00:04:44.117
 and this is what I'm trying
 
 00:04:44.137 --> 00:04:45.117
 to articulate in the book,
 
 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:48.120
 is really rooted in these
 
 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:50.600
 sort of experiences in the
 
 00:04:50.641 --> 00:04:51.942
 Northern Susquehanna River Valley,
 
 00:04:53.101 --> 00:04:54.463
 but also the experiences
 
 00:04:54.502 --> 00:04:55.463
 that they bring with them.
 
 00:04:56.444 --> 00:04:57.463
 And so one of the things I
 
 00:04:57.483 --> 00:04:58.345
 wanted to track is this
 
 00:04:58.425 --> 00:04:59.064
 idea of sort of
 
 00:04:59.105 --> 00:05:00.466
 generational grievances
 
 00:05:01.065 --> 00:05:02.947
 over a course of time in a
 
 00:05:02.987 --> 00:05:04.048
 particular space.
 
 00:05:04.870 --> 00:05:05.110
 Right.
 
 00:05:05.129 --> 00:05:07.591
 And what we have to realize, I think, very,
 
 00:05:07.651 --> 00:05:09.271
 very critically is the way
 
 00:05:09.310 --> 00:05:10.552
 that memory works in the
 
 00:05:10.591 --> 00:05:11.512
 American Revolution.
 
 00:05:11.732 --> 00:05:13.773
 And so how we memorialize that past.
 
 00:05:14.773 --> 00:05:16.613
 And also the idea that these
 
 00:05:16.634 --> 00:05:18.033
 are squatters on indigenous land.
 
 00:05:18.053 --> 00:05:20.115
 So what is independence or
 
 00:05:20.194 --> 00:05:21.355
 liberty and patriotism as
 
 00:05:21.375 --> 00:05:22.055
 they describe it?
 
 00:05:22.076 --> 00:05:22.956
 What does that actually mean
 
 00:05:22.975 --> 00:05:25.096
 to them within this contextual framework?
 
 00:05:25.817 --> 00:05:26.057
 Right.
 
 00:05:26.117 --> 00:05:27.377
 And what we see, therefore,
 
 00:05:27.396 --> 00:05:28.237
 is there's conflicting
 
 00:05:28.317 --> 00:05:29.997
 visions and versions of
 
 00:05:30.298 --> 00:05:32.278
 independence in the period.
 
 00:05:33.461 --> 00:05:36.103
 So it's indigenous land.
 
 00:05:36.223 --> 00:05:38.185
 Do we know to whom it
 
 00:05:38.225 --> 00:05:41.726
 belongs and who among the
 
 00:05:41.747 --> 00:05:44.129
 indigenous people claimed it or owned it?
 
 00:05:44.863 --> 00:05:45.504
 A lot of people,
 
 00:05:46.324 --> 00:05:47.286
 a lot of different nations
 
 00:05:47.305 --> 00:05:49.267
 are claiming it because for
 
 00:05:49.307 --> 00:05:50.889
 the eighteenth century, right,
 
 00:05:50.928 --> 00:05:51.470
 that I'm writing about,
 
 00:05:51.509 --> 00:05:52.269
 I start the book at about
 
 00:05:52.329 --> 00:05:53.331
 seventeen forty nine.
 
 00:05:54.072 --> 00:05:54.791
 This is a place of
 
 00:05:54.833 --> 00:05:55.973
 indigenous refugees
 
 00:05:56.514 --> 00:05:58.495
 displaced from the Lehigh Valley,
 
 00:05:58.555 --> 00:05:59.136
 for example.
 
 00:05:59.175 --> 00:06:00.137
 So you have Lenape.
 
 00:06:00.596 --> 00:06:02.298
 You also have Shawnee.
 
 00:06:02.338 --> 00:06:05.562
 You have Nanticoke, Kanoi, Tudelo, Saponi.
 
 00:06:06.242 --> 00:06:07.362
 But you also have the Haudenosaunee.
 
 00:06:07.382 --> 00:06:08.384
 So you have the six nations
 
 00:06:08.403 --> 00:06:08.963
 are living there.
 
 00:06:09.944 --> 00:06:11.365
 And so there's a whole bunch
 
 00:06:11.406 --> 00:06:13.225
 of people vying for control
 
 00:06:13.427 --> 00:06:15.007
 and sovereignty and
 
 00:06:15.086 --> 00:06:16.507
 autonomy in this area.
 
 00:06:16.947 --> 00:06:18.668
 The Ohio nations also lay
 
 00:06:18.709 --> 00:06:19.949
 claim to the West Branch.
 
 00:06:20.908 --> 00:06:23.350
 So, for example, in seventy three,
 
 00:06:24.810 --> 00:06:25.790
 a group of Shawnee and
 
 00:06:25.870 --> 00:06:27.791
 Muncie declare the West
 
 00:06:27.812 --> 00:06:29.213
 Branch as part of Mingo country.
 
 00:06:30.752 --> 00:06:32.233
 And there's this sort of
 
 00:06:32.334 --> 00:06:34.213
 struggle starting really in
 
 00:06:34.233 --> 00:06:36.175
 the late seventeen forties.
 
 00:06:36.654 --> 00:06:38.194
 And then it sort of escalates.
 
 00:06:38.235 --> 00:06:39.636
 If you think of it like a slow burn,
 
 00:06:40.475 --> 00:06:41.755
 there's a struggle for who
 
 00:06:41.915 --> 00:06:45.257
 actually has sovereignty
 
 00:06:45.437 --> 00:06:46.137
 over the northern
 
 00:06:46.197 --> 00:06:47.218
 Susquehanna River Valley.
 
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 Is it the Susquehanna Nations,
 
 00:06:49.197 --> 00:06:51.218
 which would be Yirrlampi, Ushani,
 
 00:06:51.478 --> 00:06:52.939
 Nanticoke, Kanoi and et cetera?
 
 00:06:53.339 --> 00:06:54.220
 Is it the Haudenosaunee?
 
 00:06:55.610 --> 00:06:56.673
 is Ohio nations.
 
 00:06:57.295 --> 00:06:57.937
 This is something that
 
 00:06:57.958 --> 00:06:58.879
 they're working out over
 
 00:06:58.899 --> 00:06:59.502
 the course of time,
 
 00:06:59.541 --> 00:07:00.485
 sometimes fighting about.
 
 00:07:01.226 --> 00:07:01.827
 There's definitely a
 
 00:07:01.869 --> 00:07:03.192
 diversity of interests there.
 
 00:07:03.899 --> 00:07:05.360
 But you also then have that
 
 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:06.862
 story that's happening at
 
 00:07:06.882 --> 00:07:08.384
 the same time as you start
 
 00:07:08.403 --> 00:07:10.305
 to see this push of
 
 00:07:10.646 --> 00:07:12.387
 settlers and speculators
 
 00:07:12.406 --> 00:07:13.708
 and imperial agents also
 
 00:07:13.747 --> 00:07:15.269
 trying to take control of
 
 00:07:15.290 --> 00:07:16.771
 the Northern Susquehanna River Valley.
 
 00:07:17.091 --> 00:07:19.153
 It's creating a combustible situation.
 
 00:07:19.173 --> 00:07:21.254
 You have colonial rivalries.
 
 00:07:21.274 --> 00:07:22.656
 I mean, Connecticut claims all of it.
 
 00:07:22.675 --> 00:07:27.319
 Yeah, they set up cameras in the area.
 
 00:07:27.339 --> 00:07:28.240
 So where are the squatters coming from,
 
 00:07:28.259 --> 00:07:28.761
 the people who start the
 
 00:07:28.781 --> 00:07:30.122
 Fair Play Republic movement?
 
 00:07:32.577 --> 00:07:33.319
 the guys at Jersey Shore.
 
 00:07:33.358 --> 00:07:34.098
 Great name, by the way,
 
 00:07:34.119 --> 00:07:37.000
 for a place in Pennsylvania.
 
 00:07:37.019 --> 00:07:37.120
 Right.
 
 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:38.040
 Well, interestingly enough,
 
 00:07:38.081 --> 00:07:39.201
 some come from New Jersey,
 
 00:07:40.081 --> 00:07:41.161
 from as far away in New Jersey.
 
 00:07:41.182 --> 00:07:42.221
 There's a handful there.
 
 00:07:42.901 --> 00:07:45.182
 The majority come from your
 
 00:07:45.423 --> 00:07:46.884
 sort of more western
 
 00:07:46.923 --> 00:07:48.043
 counties of Pennsylvania.
 
 00:07:50.144 --> 00:07:52.346
 A good chunk come from Lancaster County,
 
 00:07:53.026 --> 00:07:54.487
 from the area around Paxton,
 
 00:07:54.586 --> 00:07:56.427
 Donegal area.
 
 00:07:57.007 --> 00:07:58.867
 Then York and Cumberland counties.
 
 00:07:59.288 --> 00:08:00.129
 There's a good chunk that
 
 00:08:00.149 --> 00:08:01.249
 come from Cumberland County.
 
 00:08:02.408 --> 00:08:03.709
 A lot of them probably have
 
 00:08:03.730 --> 00:08:05.250
 experienced the area before.
 
 00:08:05.269 --> 00:08:09.132
 You have a group of soldiers
 
 00:08:09.211 --> 00:08:09.911
 marches through.
 
 00:08:10.672 --> 00:08:12.572
 in the seventeen sixties on
 
 00:08:13.012 --> 00:08:15.492
 Susquehanna expedition and
 
 00:08:15.752 --> 00:08:17.194
 many of them are joining
 
 00:08:17.374 --> 00:08:20.514
 this movement to the West
 
 00:08:20.553 --> 00:08:22.074
 Branch on this disputed
 
 00:08:22.115 --> 00:08:24.535
 territory past Lycoming Creek.
 
 00:08:25.196 --> 00:08:26.295
 And there are mixed groups.
 
 00:08:26.315 --> 00:08:28.596
 You have English, Scots-Irish, German,
 
 00:08:28.716 --> 00:08:30.937
 you have different religious affiliations,
 
 00:08:30.997 --> 00:08:33.798
 Presbyterian is the majority, Scots-Irish,
 
 00:08:33.837 --> 00:08:34.837
 Presbyterian the majority,
 
 00:08:34.857 --> 00:08:36.758
 but you also have German church people,
 
 00:08:36.817 --> 00:08:38.658
 Lutheran and Reformed, you have
 
 00:08:39.700 --> 00:08:41.520
 English Anglicans settling
 
 00:08:41.541 --> 00:08:42.442
 in the area as well.
 
 00:08:43.143 --> 00:08:44.303
 So it's a really collection
 
 00:08:44.323 --> 00:08:45.225
 of diverse peoples.
 
 00:08:45.284 --> 00:08:46.485
 But one of the things that I
 
 00:08:46.505 --> 00:08:47.827
 want and that I highlight
 
 00:08:47.847 --> 00:08:50.070
 in the book is that it's
 
 00:08:50.129 --> 00:08:52.932
 not just individuals moving, right?
 
 00:08:52.952 --> 00:08:54.053
 Think of like sort of like
 
 00:08:54.134 --> 00:08:55.414
 individuals organically
 
 00:08:55.455 --> 00:08:57.037
 just showing up on the space.
 
 00:08:57.797 --> 00:08:58.837
 They're moving as
 
 00:08:58.878 --> 00:09:00.840
 communities and as extended families,
 
 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:01.541
 which is really cool.
 
 00:09:02.897 --> 00:09:04.398
 It's because they're trying to find land,
 
 00:09:04.437 --> 00:09:05.258
 according to them,
 
 00:09:05.418 --> 00:09:06.399
 that they can settle in
 
 00:09:06.438 --> 00:09:08.000
 close proximity to one another.
 
 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:10.380
 And they're not getting that chance,
 
 00:09:10.400 --> 00:09:10.941
 according to them,
 
 00:09:10.961 --> 00:09:12.782
 because of the land laws of
 
 00:09:12.922 --> 00:09:14.923
 both the British Empire and
 
 00:09:15.302 --> 00:09:16.563
 Pennsylvania in particular.
 
 00:09:16.604 --> 00:09:18.325
 So they make their way to this territory.
 
 00:09:18.684 --> 00:09:19.485
 And so they know each other.
 
 00:09:19.504 --> 00:09:19.664
 I mean,
 
 00:09:19.684 --> 00:09:21.225
 you have whole extended families
 
 00:09:21.645 --> 00:09:22.927
 settling together and
 
 00:09:22.966 --> 00:09:24.508
 claiming land around each other.
 
 00:09:25.427 --> 00:09:25.548
 Now,
 
 00:09:25.567 --> 00:09:28.129
 where are they claiming it from when
 
 00:09:28.330 --> 00:09:28.889
 they get there?
 
 00:09:28.909 --> 00:09:30.029
 Is it the land laws are
 
 00:09:30.049 --> 00:09:30.850
 making it hard for them to
 
 00:09:31.948 --> 00:09:35.770
 From whom are they claiming?
 
 00:09:35.890 --> 00:09:36.892
 I mean, they know someone else owns it.
 
 00:09:36.912 --> 00:09:37.111
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:09:37.131 --> 00:09:37.951
 No, that's very clear in their land,
 
 00:09:37.971 --> 00:09:38.592
 in their records.
 
 00:09:38.613 --> 00:09:40.153
 So I'm just going to sort of
 
 00:09:40.173 --> 00:09:41.073
 jump ahead in the story and
 
 00:09:41.094 --> 00:09:41.855
 then I'll go back to sort
 
 00:09:41.875 --> 00:09:42.495
 of explain this.
 
 00:09:42.995 --> 00:09:44.375
 So in seventeen eighty four,
 
 00:09:45.876 --> 00:09:48.618
 right after the Treaty of Fort Stanwix,
 
 00:09:48.859 --> 00:09:49.818
 the Pennsylvania government
 
 00:09:49.859 --> 00:09:51.000
 passes a new land law.
 
 00:09:52.178 --> 00:09:53.841
 that allows the preemption rights.
 
 00:09:54.061 --> 00:09:55.923
 So that's the settler
 
 00:09:55.942 --> 00:09:57.605
 improvements or squatter improvements,
 
 00:09:57.804 --> 00:09:58.785
 but the preemption rights
 
 00:09:58.826 --> 00:10:01.548
 for settlers west of Lycoming Creek.
 
 00:10:01.568 --> 00:10:02.750
 And there's a reason for that.
 
 00:10:02.770 --> 00:10:04.272
 And I could get into that if you wanted,
 
 00:10:05.394 --> 00:10:06.934
 but in order to get that preemption,
 
 00:10:06.955 --> 00:10:08.157
 you had to apply to the
 
 00:10:08.197 --> 00:10:09.837
 land office and state
 
 00:10:10.458 --> 00:10:13.263
 when you arrived past Lycoming Creek,
 
 00:10:13.663 --> 00:10:14.745
 who your neighbors were,
 
 00:10:14.764 --> 00:10:15.645
 you had evidence.
 
 00:10:16.285 --> 00:10:18.028
 And it had to be before or
 
 00:10:18.109 --> 00:10:19.750
 around between like,
 
 00:10:19.791 --> 00:10:22.673
 in during the early parts of the war.
 
 00:10:22.714 --> 00:10:24.135
 That's when you had to arrive or before .
 
 00:10:24.336 --> 00:10:27.721
 And so what I did basically
 
 00:10:29.580 --> 00:10:32.142
 is I collected together the land records.
 
 00:10:32.182 --> 00:10:33.283
 So the LO files,
 
 00:10:33.302 --> 00:10:34.563
 the land office files from
 
 00:10:34.583 --> 00:10:36.004
 the Pennsylvania Historical
 
 00:10:36.044 --> 00:10:37.426
 Museum Commission made a
 
 00:10:37.466 --> 00:10:38.606
 database of all the people
 
 00:10:38.626 --> 00:10:40.168
 that claim land in this territory.
 
 00:10:40.288 --> 00:10:42.190
 They look at land records, deeds,
 
 00:10:42.230 --> 00:10:42.669
 et cetera.
 
 00:10:43.211 --> 00:10:45.131
 But in those descriptions,
 
 00:10:45.212 --> 00:10:46.573
 I think what we're getting to is like,
 
 00:10:47.033 --> 00:10:48.615
 they describe it as Indian land.
 
 00:10:50.017 --> 00:10:51.738
 right, that they're claiming Indian land.
 
 00:10:52.398 --> 00:10:53.977
 And each one of them points this out.
 
 00:10:54.197 --> 00:10:54.778
 It's not that they're
 
 00:10:54.798 --> 00:10:55.399
 pointing out that they
 
 00:10:55.458 --> 00:10:56.198
 claim land from
 
 00:10:56.239 --> 00:10:58.179
 Pennsylvanians and from
 
 00:10:58.240 --> 00:10:59.840
 Connecticut or et cetera.
 
 00:10:59.860 --> 00:11:01.461
 They know that they are on
 
 00:11:01.780 --> 00:11:02.821
 Native American land.
 
 00:11:02.941 --> 00:11:04.422
 They very clearly articulate
 
 00:11:04.461 --> 00:11:06.922
 that in their land claims.
 
 00:11:07.682 --> 00:11:08.903
 But by seventeen eighty four,
 
 00:11:08.942 --> 00:11:11.203
 they see this area in their
 
 00:11:11.264 --> 00:11:12.264
 squatter settlements as the
 
 00:11:12.323 --> 00:11:14.345
 sort of spoils of the
 
 00:11:14.365 --> 00:11:15.325
 American Revolution.
 
 00:11:15.504 --> 00:11:17.446
 This is the value of that
 
 00:11:17.485 --> 00:11:18.306
 revolution for them.
 
 00:11:19.817 --> 00:11:20.697
 Fascinating.
 
 00:11:20.739 --> 00:11:21.958
 We're talking with Chris Pearl,
 
 00:11:21.999 --> 00:11:22.860
 associate professor of
 
 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:23.740
 history at Lake Bowman
 
 00:11:23.779 --> 00:11:25.140
 College in Pennsylvania,
 
 00:11:25.321 --> 00:11:27.101
 author most recently of
 
 00:11:27.162 --> 00:11:28.903
 Declarations of Independence,
 
 00:11:28.982 --> 00:11:31.504
 Indigenous Resilience, Colonial Rivalries,
 
 00:11:31.943 --> 00:11:33.504
 and the Cost of Revolution.
 
 00:11:33.544 --> 00:11:34.544
 And we're talking about this
 
 00:11:35.005 --> 00:11:36.525
 contested area on the upper
 
 00:11:36.566 --> 00:11:38.067
 Susquehanna River.
 
 00:11:40.148 --> 00:11:41.048
 So they know it's Indian
 
 00:11:41.089 --> 00:11:42.089
 land they're claiming.
 
 00:11:44.990 --> 00:11:46.130
 But then you also talk about
 
 00:11:46.370 --> 00:11:47.692
 land speculators who see
 
 00:11:47.711 --> 00:11:49.613
 this as an opportunity to, well,
 
 00:11:51.714 --> 00:11:53.475
 make a buck by selling land.
 
 00:11:53.674 --> 00:11:53.875
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:11:53.894 --> 00:11:55.154
 So speculators are also
 
 00:11:55.195 --> 00:11:56.836
 heavily invested in
 
 00:11:56.855 --> 00:11:58.775
 attempting to take the
 
 00:11:58.796 --> 00:12:00.096
 northern Susquehanna River Valley,
 
 00:12:00.116 --> 00:12:01.236
 particularly the West Branch.
 
 00:12:02.216 --> 00:12:03.216
 They've been working on
 
 00:12:03.258 --> 00:12:04.197
 taking the West Branch to
 
 00:12:04.217 --> 00:12:05.097
 the Susquehanna since at
 
 00:12:05.118 --> 00:12:06.418
 least seventeen forty nine.
 
 00:12:07.698 --> 00:12:08.119
 And so
 
 00:12:09.139 --> 00:12:11.642
 Speculators are moving into the area,
 
 00:12:11.841 --> 00:12:13.083
 even though it's contested.
 
 00:12:13.884 --> 00:12:14.845
 They're moving into the area
 
 00:12:14.865 --> 00:12:16.047
 with their chains, compasses,
 
 00:12:16.067 --> 00:12:16.746
 and log books,
 
 00:12:16.787 --> 00:12:17.948
 trying to figure out a way
 
 00:12:18.028 --> 00:12:19.671
 to take that land from both
 
 00:12:19.750 --> 00:12:20.971
 native peoples and from the
 
 00:12:20.991 --> 00:12:21.972
 squatters who live there.
 
 00:12:22.312 --> 00:12:23.033
 Potentially, I mean,
 
 00:12:23.053 --> 00:12:24.796
 the squatters provide
 
 00:12:26.477 --> 00:12:27.960
 something beneficial to speculators,
 
 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:28.720
 particularly the way that
 
 00:12:28.740 --> 00:12:29.822
 they're clearing the land.
 
 00:12:29.861 --> 00:12:30.261
 Right.
 
 00:12:30.782 --> 00:12:32.384
 So if you could take that land from them,
 
 00:12:32.423 --> 00:12:33.424
 you already have improved
 
 00:12:33.465 --> 00:12:34.265
 land that you could sell
 
 00:12:34.285 --> 00:12:35.287
 for increased value.
 
 00:12:36.047 --> 00:12:37.528
 So this is part and parcel of this.
 
 00:12:37.548 --> 00:12:38.269
 So one of the things that
 
 00:12:38.288 --> 00:12:39.210
 the fair play settlers
 
 00:12:39.250 --> 00:12:40.731
 complain about during the revolution,
 
 00:12:40.792 --> 00:12:41.131
 at least,
 
 00:12:41.451 --> 00:12:42.212
 and they complain about this
 
 00:12:42.253 --> 00:12:43.094
 earlier in the seventeen
 
 00:12:43.134 --> 00:12:44.615
 sixties to the same settlers.
 
 00:12:45.475 --> 00:12:46.496
 So there's a continuity of
 
 00:12:46.517 --> 00:12:49.600
 the logic there is that some of.
 
 00:12:50.523 --> 00:12:51.543
 that speculators in the
 
 00:12:51.583 --> 00:12:53.285
 revolution in like early
 
 00:12:53.326 --> 00:12:54.768
 seventeen eighties are also
 
 00:12:54.827 --> 00:12:57.250
 applying for the land that they had,
 
 00:12:57.289 --> 00:12:58.331
 quote, long enjoyed.
 
 00:12:58.410 --> 00:12:58.731
 Right.
 
 00:12:58.751 --> 00:13:01.114
 So there's this competition
 
 00:13:01.173 --> 00:13:02.274
 over who's actually going
 
 00:13:02.296 --> 00:13:03.115
 to benefit from the
 
 00:13:03.135 --> 00:13:04.677
 American Revolution and
 
 00:13:04.717 --> 00:13:05.778
 from what they call their
 
 00:13:05.818 --> 00:13:07.100
 sacrifice and their suffering.
 
 00:13:10.298 --> 00:13:11.678
 And then after the Treaty of Port Sandwich,
 
 00:13:11.698 --> 00:13:13.259
 they do get the land in
 
 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:14.900
 recognition of their suffering.
 
 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:15.541
 Yes.
 
 00:13:15.721 --> 00:13:17.522
 And that's literally written into the law,
 
 00:13:17.642 --> 00:13:17.841
 right?
 
 00:13:17.861 --> 00:13:19.283
 The recognition of these
 
 00:13:19.322 --> 00:13:20.322
 settlers suffering during
 
 00:13:20.363 --> 00:13:22.605
 the war is what gains them
 
 00:13:22.625 --> 00:13:24.065
 their preemption rights.
 
 00:13:24.085 --> 00:13:24.885
 And one of the things I
 
 00:13:24.926 --> 00:13:25.625
 point out in the book is
 
 00:13:25.666 --> 00:13:26.886
 that this Fair Play story,
 
 00:13:26.927 --> 00:13:27.807
 while we know it,
 
 00:13:28.407 --> 00:13:30.749
 it's sort of there in certain books.
 
 00:13:30.788 --> 00:13:31.109
 We've never...
 
 00:13:32.301 --> 00:13:34.663
 really explored in depth what it is.
 
 00:13:34.682 --> 00:13:36.083
 There's been one book on it.
 
 00:13:36.384 --> 00:13:37.784
 In the sixties, it was really good.
 
 00:13:39.025 --> 00:13:40.027
 But one of the things I
 
 00:13:40.067 --> 00:13:41.128
 wanted to point out here is
 
 00:13:41.168 --> 00:13:43.789
 that they were really vocal
 
 00:13:43.809 --> 00:13:45.990
 contingents of the American
 
 00:13:46.030 --> 00:13:47.753
 Revolution in the public press.
 
 00:13:48.673 --> 00:13:49.634
 They became sort of
 
 00:13:49.774 --> 00:13:51.515
 celebrities in and of themselves.
 
 00:13:52.355 --> 00:13:54.316
 right in this late seventeen
 
 00:13:54.375 --> 00:13:56.116
 seventies into the seventeen eighties.
 
 00:13:56.496 --> 00:13:58.038
 So one of my most favorite
 
 00:13:58.077 --> 00:13:59.077
 pieces of evidence from the
 
 00:13:59.138 --> 00:14:00.719
 time is like when we have
 
 00:14:00.739 --> 00:14:01.740
 the Treaty of Paris and
 
 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:02.919
 there's this proclamation
 
 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:04.760
 read in Philadelphia, you know,
 
 00:14:04.780 --> 00:14:07.282
 the bells are ringing on Market Street.
 
 00:14:07.361 --> 00:14:08.903
 They descend the courthouse steps.
 
 00:14:08.923 --> 00:14:10.364
 The sheriff magistrate reads
 
 00:14:10.484 --> 00:14:12.424
 out the the cessation of
 
 00:14:12.445 --> 00:14:14.405
 hostilities and people are
 
 00:14:14.745 --> 00:14:16.687
 sort of cheering and et cetera.
 
 00:14:16.807 --> 00:14:18.748
 Thomas Paine writes another
 
 00:14:19.528 --> 00:14:20.489
 piece in the newspaper.
 
 00:14:21.269 --> 00:14:23.230
 Charles Wilson Peale creates
 
 00:14:23.270 --> 00:14:24.191
 this illumination.
 
 00:14:24.250 --> 00:14:24.491
 Well,
 
 00:14:24.532 --> 00:14:26.452
 in the same newspaper reporting on that,
 
 00:14:26.513 --> 00:14:27.394
 reporting on all that
 
 00:14:27.433 --> 00:14:28.794
 celebration to the end of the war,
 
 00:14:29.215 --> 00:14:31.015
 the fair play settlers are
 
 00:14:31.197 --> 00:14:32.317
 also writing in the same
 
 00:14:32.336 --> 00:14:33.979
 newspaper that the war is not over.
 
 00:14:34.698 --> 00:14:35.480
 Right.
 
 00:14:35.620 --> 00:14:37.422
 That in order to achieve
 
 00:14:37.461 --> 00:14:38.763
 what they what the paper
 
 00:14:38.783 --> 00:14:40.845
 was calling this new rising empire,
 
 00:14:41.346 --> 00:14:43.028
 that that the American
 
 00:14:43.067 --> 00:14:43.969
 governments and
 
 00:14:44.009 --> 00:14:44.729
 particularly the state of
 
 00:14:44.749 --> 00:14:46.110
 Pennsylvania needs to use
 
 00:14:46.171 --> 00:14:48.854
 its newfound power to, quote unquote,
 
 00:14:48.994 --> 00:14:50.174
 extirpate the native
 
 00:14:50.195 --> 00:14:51.677
 peoples from the land.
 
 00:14:51.856 --> 00:14:52.076
 Right.
 
 00:14:52.096 --> 00:14:53.097
 So they can go back and
 
 00:14:53.138 --> 00:14:54.700
 claim it for themselves.
 
 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:56.541
 And so we have this really
 
 00:14:56.640 --> 00:14:57.961
 sort of vocal contingent
 
 00:14:58.263 --> 00:14:59.423
 that has been popularized
 
 00:14:59.443 --> 00:15:01.424
 because of Hartley's expedition,
 
 00:15:01.806 --> 00:15:02.765
 because of Sullivan's
 
 00:15:02.785 --> 00:15:04.707
 campaign and et cetera
 
 00:15:04.727 --> 00:15:06.690
 during the war that people
 
 00:15:06.750 --> 00:15:08.610
 know they exist now and
 
 00:15:08.630 --> 00:15:10.131
 they are working in their favor.
 
 00:15:10.793 --> 00:15:12.634
 And that's very clear in the
 
 00:15:12.674 --> 00:15:14.056
 seventeen eighties, eighty four,
 
 00:15:14.115 --> 00:15:16.337
 eighty five.
 
 00:15:16.557 --> 00:15:19.240
 And you've got a number of massacres,
 
 00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:20.181
 atrocities,
 
 00:15:20.280 --> 00:15:21.142
 however you want to describe
 
 00:15:21.162 --> 00:15:21.981
 them in this area.
 
 00:15:22.001 --> 00:15:23.844
 I mean, it's contested during the war.
 
 00:15:24.410 --> 00:15:26.253
 of these various players.
 
 00:15:26.273 --> 00:15:26.394
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:26.974 --> 00:15:28.176
 There's a lot of, I mean,
 
 00:15:28.196 --> 00:15:29.136
 there's a lot of sort of
 
 00:15:29.317 --> 00:15:31.080
 symbols of all over the place.
 
 00:15:31.100 --> 00:15:32.402
 If you ride Route two twenty, I mean,
 
 00:15:32.422 --> 00:15:33.602
 you're just going to see a
 
 00:15:33.623 --> 00:15:35.044
 ton of these things.
 
 00:15:35.125 --> 00:15:36.246
 And they're often described
 
 00:15:36.267 --> 00:15:37.889
 as sort of ambush of innocence
 
 00:15:38.318 --> 00:15:40.278
 yeah yeah the lee massacre
 
 00:15:40.359 --> 00:15:41.860
 the great runaway burned by
 
 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:43.679
 indians and what I wanted
 
 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:45.139
 to do is contextualize that
 
 00:15:45.220 --> 00:15:47.201
 story like we need to
 
 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:48.280
 understand why that's
 
 00:15:48.301 --> 00:15:49.160
 happening right these
 
 00:15:49.201 --> 00:15:52.442
 aren't just senseless um um
 
 00:15:52.501 --> 00:15:54.662
 massacres or etc and we
 
 00:15:54.701 --> 00:15:56.143
 also uh on the flip side of
 
 00:15:56.163 --> 00:15:57.523
 this you have hartley you
 
 00:15:57.543 --> 00:15:59.202
 know moving up the the
 
 00:15:59.263 --> 00:16:00.524
 light of glycoming creek
 
 00:16:00.644 --> 00:16:02.043
 creating his own massacres
 
 00:16:02.803 --> 00:16:05.804
 We don't necessarily memorialize, right?
 
 00:16:05.845 --> 00:16:07.404
 Like we don't tell that part
 
 00:16:07.424 --> 00:16:08.184
 of that story.
 
 00:16:08.644 --> 00:16:10.505
 And so if once we see that,
 
 00:16:10.586 --> 00:16:12.166
 once we see what's going on here,
 
 00:16:12.485 --> 00:16:13.686
 the violence of it, I mean,
 
 00:16:13.706 --> 00:16:14.807
 the Chief Justice Supreme
 
 00:16:14.826 --> 00:16:15.826
 Court in ninety-one said
 
 00:16:15.846 --> 00:16:16.647
 that what happened there
 
 00:16:16.927 --> 00:16:18.187
 covered this country in blood.
 
 00:16:18.567 --> 00:16:20.727
 And he's talking expressly
 
 00:16:20.748 --> 00:16:22.408
 about the West Branch of
 
 00:16:22.427 --> 00:16:24.227
 the Susquehanna is because
 
 00:16:24.288 --> 00:16:25.989
 this is a long contestation
 
 00:16:26.729 --> 00:16:28.009
 over land and sovereignty
 
 00:16:28.048 --> 00:16:28.928
 in this region that
 
 00:16:28.969 --> 00:16:31.649
 explodes in the American Revolution.
 
 00:16:32.375 --> 00:16:35.115
 And that's why it becomes so violent.
 
 00:16:35.155 --> 00:16:38.116
 That's why it becomes such a key part,
 
 00:16:38.736 --> 00:16:39.216
 I believe,
 
 00:16:39.797 --> 00:16:41.957
 of that revolutionary movement.
 
 00:16:42.097 --> 00:16:42.557
 It's fascinating.
 
 00:16:42.738 --> 00:16:43.538
 We're talking with Chris
 
 00:16:43.577 --> 00:16:45.177
 Pearl from Lycoming College
 
 00:16:45.197 --> 00:16:45.698
 about his book,
 
 00:16:45.739 --> 00:16:47.119
 Declarations of Independence.
 
 00:16:48.099 --> 00:16:49.960
 You do really well in the book,
 
 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.159
 both telling this big story
 
 00:16:52.179 --> 00:16:52.801
 of what's going on,
 
 00:16:52.821 --> 00:16:54.000
 as well as these individual
 
 00:16:54.020 --> 00:16:55.000
 stories of these people.
 
 00:16:55.020 --> 00:16:56.041
 You can see this database
 
 00:16:56.061 --> 00:16:58.042
 you've created really works
 
 00:16:58.101 --> 00:16:59.182
 very well in finding out
 
 00:16:59.201 --> 00:17:00.022
 who these people are.
 
 00:17:00.082 --> 00:17:01.702
 As the book begins with these guys,
 
 00:17:02.495 --> 00:17:03.897
 um jersey shore having their
 
 00:17:03.956 --> 00:17:05.459
 proclamation and creating a
 
 00:17:05.479 --> 00:17:06.539
 fair play republic and it
 
 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:07.721
 ends with you know the
 
 00:17:07.760 --> 00:17:09.123
 walker brothers in a tavern
 
 00:17:09.544 --> 00:17:10.904
 killing a couple of indians
 
 00:17:10.984 --> 00:17:15.250
 because um they don't like
 
 00:17:15.289 --> 00:17:16.030
 them and but then it comes
 
 00:17:16.070 --> 00:17:17.452
 up with a story about how
 
 00:17:17.813 --> 00:17:18.693
 one of the indians boasted
 
 00:17:18.733 --> 00:17:19.595
 he had killed the walker
 
 00:17:19.615 --> 00:17:21.498
 brother's father and one of
 
 00:17:21.518 --> 00:17:22.358
 these massacres
 
 00:17:25.103 --> 00:17:27.865
 of grudges to continue.
 
 00:17:27.884 --> 00:17:28.005
 Yes.
 
 00:17:28.085 --> 00:17:29.165
 And I think it shows the
 
 00:17:29.205 --> 00:17:31.288
 complicated legacy of this fair play.
 
 00:17:31.307 --> 00:17:32.509
 Because you could look at one way,
 
 00:17:32.528 --> 00:17:33.308
 you could look at the fair
 
 00:17:33.328 --> 00:17:36.311
 play as this sort of utopia, right?
 
 00:17:36.392 --> 00:17:37.732
 It's expressive of things
 
 00:17:37.752 --> 00:17:38.874
 that people have wanted.
 
 00:17:38.894 --> 00:17:40.815
 They create this interdependent republic.
 
 00:17:41.336 --> 00:17:42.636
 But it's as much as an
 
 00:17:42.696 --> 00:17:46.160
 exclusive place as it is an inclusive one,
 
 00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:47.401
 right?
 
 00:17:47.421 --> 00:17:48.320
 They're even pushing out
 
 00:17:48.642 --> 00:17:49.883
 other British subjects and etc.,
 
 00:17:50.623 --> 00:17:51.384
 But that legacy,
 
 00:17:51.423 --> 00:17:52.784
 like some have pointed out,
 
 00:17:52.824 --> 00:17:54.005
 like sort of in the lore,
 
 00:17:54.105 --> 00:17:55.385
 like there's this joke that
 
 00:17:55.986 --> 00:17:57.126
 Thomas McKean is the Chief
 
 00:17:57.166 --> 00:17:58.248
 Justice of the Supreme Court.
 
 00:18:00.009 --> 00:18:01.250
 He's up in Northumberland
 
 00:18:01.289 --> 00:18:02.790
 and he asks a Fair Play
 
 00:18:02.830 --> 00:18:04.751
 settler about the Fair Play Republic.
 
 00:18:05.503 --> 00:18:07.304
 And apparently, tongue in cheek,
 
 00:18:08.944 --> 00:18:10.545
 this guy says that fair
 
 00:18:10.585 --> 00:18:12.905
 play ceased and law has taken its place,
 
 00:18:13.086 --> 00:18:13.405
 right?
 
 00:18:13.705 --> 00:18:15.165
 So no longer is it fair.
 
 00:18:15.747 --> 00:18:16.567
 And what I wanted to point
 
 00:18:16.606 --> 00:18:18.846
 out is that's not really what happens.
 
 00:18:19.627 --> 00:18:20.087
 In fact,
 
 00:18:20.127 --> 00:18:21.728
 the fair play republic endures
 
 00:18:21.768 --> 00:18:22.307
 because it's been
 
 00:18:22.567 --> 00:18:24.429
 incorporated into the legal
 
 00:18:24.449 --> 00:18:25.868
 structures and mechanisms
 
 00:18:26.788 --> 00:18:28.589
 of the revolutionary state.
 
 00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:29.609
 So for example, many of the
 
 00:18:30.776 --> 00:18:32.396
 Men become jurors.
 
 00:18:33.136 --> 00:18:34.877
 They become the chief judges
 
 00:18:34.978 --> 00:18:35.618
 of the county.
 
 00:18:36.019 --> 00:18:37.920
 They become sheriffs and constables.
 
 00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:39.580
 So when the Walker brothers
 
 00:18:40.560 --> 00:18:42.281
 on in seventeen ninety,
 
 00:18:42.342 --> 00:18:43.762
 when they murder these two
 
 00:18:43.782 --> 00:18:46.443
 Seneca men because they
 
 00:18:46.484 --> 00:18:48.385
 later claim and it's specious,
 
 00:18:48.445 --> 00:18:49.145
 it's there's really no
 
 00:18:49.405 --> 00:18:51.047
 action to the death of them.
 
 00:18:51.086 --> 00:18:51.446
 father,
 
 00:18:52.268 --> 00:18:53.829
 when they claim that they did this
 
 00:18:53.890 --> 00:18:54.911
 as a revenge killing,
 
 00:18:55.872 --> 00:18:56.853
 the community gathers
 
 00:18:56.893 --> 00:18:58.054
 together and hides them
 
 00:18:58.114 --> 00:19:00.455
 from both state and federal prosecution.
 
 00:19:00.896 --> 00:19:02.478
 And then when one of their accomplices,
 
 00:19:02.538 --> 00:19:04.099
 Samuel Doyle, is caught,
 
 00:19:04.579 --> 00:19:05.820
 he's tried and he's
 
 00:19:05.861 --> 00:19:07.103
 acquitted of all charges.
 
 00:19:07.403 --> 00:19:08.203
 Well, who acquits him?
 
 00:19:08.423 --> 00:19:10.445
 And luckily at the HSP,
 
 00:19:10.506 --> 00:19:11.287
 I love the Historical
 
 00:19:11.426 --> 00:19:12.268
 Society of Pennsylvania,
 
 00:19:13.067 --> 00:19:14.209
 In the most miscellaneous
 
 00:19:14.249 --> 00:19:15.569
 collections for the counties,
 
 00:19:15.951 --> 00:19:17.191
 we have one little document.
 
 00:19:17.311 --> 00:19:18.192
 It's about, you know,
 
 00:19:18.271 --> 00:19:19.573
 half a sheet of paper in
 
 00:19:19.593 --> 00:19:20.534
 which it lists all the
 
 00:19:20.574 --> 00:19:22.715
 jurors and all the witnesses, right?
 
 00:19:22.756 --> 00:19:23.016
 Well,
 
 00:19:23.155 --> 00:19:25.538
 all those jurors were the squatters
 
 00:19:25.617 --> 00:19:26.659
 that we can pull from the
 
 00:19:26.699 --> 00:19:28.839
 data of the land office record.
 
 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:30.442
 So they're led off by the
 
 00:19:30.461 --> 00:19:32.182
 Fair Play community.
 
 00:19:32.502 --> 00:19:33.384
 So that shows you that
 
 00:19:33.443 --> 00:19:35.164
 enduring sort of legacy and
 
 00:19:35.184 --> 00:19:36.185
 that enduring sort of
 
 00:19:36.266 --> 00:19:38.008
 memory of suffering is not
 
 00:19:38.028 --> 00:19:40.068
 going to end the way they describe it.
 
 00:19:40.088 --> 00:19:41.529
 It's not going to end with a treaty.
 
 00:19:41.549 --> 00:19:42.310
 It's not going to end with
 
 00:19:42.550 --> 00:19:43.673
 uh it's not going to end
 
 00:19:43.712 --> 00:19:45.154
 with preemption rights
 
 00:19:45.734 --> 00:19:48.739
 right uh really
 
 00:19:48.798 --> 00:19:49.941
 significantly and that
 
 00:19:49.961 --> 00:19:50.761
 shapes the memory
 
 00:19:50.801 --> 00:19:51.844
 thereafter of how they
 
 00:19:51.864 --> 00:19:53.486
 describe uh the places of
 
 00:19:53.506 --> 00:19:54.307
 the founding right
 
 00:19:57.167 --> 00:19:57.307
 Yeah,
 
 00:19:57.347 --> 00:19:58.808
 and Washington really wants to have
 
 00:19:58.828 --> 00:19:59.528
 these guys brought to
 
 00:19:59.568 --> 00:20:02.589
 justice to show that we can,
 
 00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:03.611
 we want a lot of these guys.
 
 00:20:03.671 --> 00:20:05.131
 This was going to be a test case that,
 
 00:20:05.191 --> 00:20:07.092
 that, that, that, that, that, that, that,
 
 00:20:07.112 --> 00:20:08.353
 that, that, that, that, that, that, that,
 
 00:20:08.633 --> 00:20:09.932
 that, that, that, that, that, that, that,
 
 00:20:09.952 --> 00:20:10.133
 that,
 
 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.000
 And it just ends right there.
 
 00:20:30.020 --> 00:20:31.800
 The whole trial, they can do nothing.
 
 00:20:31.820 --> 00:20:31.961
 I mean,
 
 00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.882
 the Walker brothers end up in Indiana,
 
 00:20:34.182 --> 00:20:35.821
 which is sort of a fitting
 
 00:20:36.563 --> 00:20:37.563
 movement because that's
 
 00:20:37.603 --> 00:20:39.383
 where many of the people,
 
 00:20:39.442 --> 00:20:40.903
 the Susquehanna nations who
 
 00:20:40.983 --> 00:20:42.044
 lived on that West Branch
 
 00:20:42.064 --> 00:20:43.503
 that they took from them end up too.
 
 00:20:44.384 --> 00:20:45.984
 They live in Indiana the
 
 00:20:46.025 --> 00:20:47.005
 last days of their lives
 
 00:20:47.085 --> 00:20:48.425
 taking a pension for their
 
 00:20:48.465 --> 00:20:49.445
 service to the revolution,
 
 00:20:50.306 --> 00:20:50.905
 never punished.
 
 00:20:50.925 --> 00:20:53.386
 It's amazing.
 
 00:20:53.527 --> 00:20:54.086
 Really amazing.
 
 00:20:54.448 --> 00:20:55.387
 And you have also,
 
 00:20:55.768 --> 00:20:56.628
 we mentioned earlier that
 
 00:20:56.648 --> 00:20:57.189
 Connecticut and
 
 00:20:57.229 --> 00:20:58.069
 Pennsylvania have been
 
 00:20:58.089 --> 00:20:59.151
 contesting this land.
 
 00:20:59.230 --> 00:21:01.352
 And then at the time of the peace treaty,
 
 00:21:01.412 --> 00:21:03.573
 there's a bit with the Paris treaty,
 
 00:21:03.833 --> 00:21:06.515
 Pennsylvania, New York Congress are all,
 
 00:21:06.934 --> 00:21:07.415
 you know,
 
 00:21:07.435 --> 00:21:08.556
 who gets down to deal with the
 
 00:21:08.615 --> 00:21:11.157
 Indians and each side wants, you know,
 
 00:21:11.198 --> 00:21:12.719
 their entity to be the one
 
 00:21:12.739 --> 00:21:14.259
 that's calling the shots.
 
 00:21:15.108 --> 00:21:15.650
 Yeah, I mean,
 
 00:21:15.670 --> 00:21:17.571
 it's a super divided approach at first.
 
 00:21:17.632 --> 00:21:18.231
 I mean,
 
 00:21:18.271 --> 00:21:20.974
 Congress is using the Articles of
 
 00:21:20.994 --> 00:21:21.996
 Confederation to claim that
 
 00:21:22.016 --> 00:21:23.577
 they have a sovereign authority to deal,
 
 00:21:23.678 --> 00:21:23.817
 right?
 
 00:21:23.837 --> 00:21:24.578
 They have the diplomatic
 
 00:21:24.598 --> 00:21:26.099
 authority to deal with Native peoples,
 
 00:21:26.140 --> 00:21:27.381
 particularly the Haudenosaunee,
 
 00:21:27.682 --> 00:21:29.242
 because the Haudenosaunee are a sovereign,
 
 00:21:29.323 --> 00:21:30.344
 not dependent people.
 
 00:21:30.384 --> 00:21:31.484
 That's what Congress claims.
 
 00:21:32.125 --> 00:21:33.207
 New York's claiming, no,
 
 00:21:33.267 --> 00:21:34.669
 they're dependencies of the state.
 
 00:21:34.729 --> 00:21:35.589
 So they try to have their
 
 00:21:35.730 --> 00:21:38.792
 own treaty with the Haudenosaunee.
 
 00:21:39.756 --> 00:21:41.538
 And it sort of comes down to
 
 00:21:41.557 --> 00:21:42.499
 a lot of different things.
 
 00:21:43.159 --> 00:21:44.121
 But one of the things that
 
 00:21:44.161 --> 00:21:45.721
 is used by Congress is the
 
 00:21:45.761 --> 00:21:46.563
 Pennsylvanians.
 
 00:21:47.104 --> 00:21:48.105
 So the Pennsylvanians are
 
 00:21:48.144 --> 00:21:50.468
 totally willing to work with Congress,
 
 00:21:50.567 --> 00:21:51.868
 which is Pennsylvania's
 
 00:21:51.990 --> 00:21:53.010
 Iraqi relationship,
 
 00:21:53.050 --> 00:21:55.192
 the state government and
 
 00:21:55.272 --> 00:21:56.253
 Congress for a while.
 
 00:21:57.234 --> 00:21:58.736
 But Congress has often
 
 00:22:00.135 --> 00:22:01.096
 worked with Pennsylvania
 
 00:22:01.115 --> 00:22:02.957
 and it's to Pennsylvania's advantage,
 
 00:22:03.136 --> 00:22:04.836
 particularly with Connecticut claims,
 
 00:22:04.977 --> 00:22:05.897
 like Congress ruled in
 
 00:22:05.917 --> 00:22:06.877
 favor of Pennsylvania.
 
 00:22:07.397 --> 00:22:08.597
 So Pennsylvania sort of
 
 00:22:08.718 --> 00:22:10.439
 agrees to work underneath
 
 00:22:10.479 --> 00:22:11.298
 the Treaty of Paris.
 
 00:22:11.578 --> 00:22:12.358
 And that was super
 
 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:14.539
 beneficial to the state of
 
 00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:16.299
 Pennsylvania and its goals, right?
 
 00:22:16.921 --> 00:22:17.921
 What it wanted from the
 
 00:22:17.961 --> 00:22:20.000
 Treaty of Fort Stamets and
 
 00:22:20.020 --> 00:22:20.821
 what it achieved.
 
 00:22:21.922 --> 00:22:23.541
 Ultimately, New York wins out too,
 
 00:22:23.582 --> 00:22:24.202
 but in the moment,
 
 00:22:24.222 --> 00:22:25.482
 it didn't look like New York did.
 
 00:22:27.943 --> 00:22:29.005
 There's some interesting
 
 00:22:29.065 --> 00:22:30.424
 characters in this, too.
 
 00:22:30.484 --> 00:22:32.086
 I mean, characters, some we know about,
 
 00:22:32.105 --> 00:22:35.067
 like Joseph Grant and Corn Planter.
 
 00:22:35.087 --> 00:22:36.528
 I'm wondering who else
 
 00:22:36.567 --> 00:22:38.249
 emerges from the story that
 
 00:22:38.269 --> 00:22:41.371
 you find interesting, if not admirable?
 
 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:42.799
 Yeah.
 
 00:22:43.520 --> 00:22:45.761
 So one of the things I tried
 
 00:22:45.801 --> 00:22:47.063
 to do in the book, it's a great question,
 
 00:22:47.324 --> 00:22:49.664
 is I wanted to tell the story because,
 
 00:22:49.684 --> 00:22:49.865
 I mean,
 
 00:22:49.905 --> 00:22:51.247
 I had data and I could create
 
 00:22:51.787 --> 00:22:52.768
 communities and such.
 
 00:22:52.867 --> 00:22:53.468
 But I wanted to tell
 
 00:22:53.528 --> 00:22:55.730
 individual stories so you
 
 00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:57.050
 could follow people through
 
 00:22:57.070 --> 00:22:58.471
 a little bit and understand
 
 00:22:58.771 --> 00:22:59.833
 and sort of empathize in
 
 00:22:59.853 --> 00:23:02.075
 this in this way with what's going on.
 
 00:23:02.855 --> 00:23:04.116
 And two people that I found,
 
 00:23:04.317 --> 00:23:05.538
 I found really compelling.
 
 00:23:05.738 --> 00:23:07.799
 I mean, we know a lot about Tedious Gung,
 
 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:08.500
 for example.
 
 00:23:09.922 --> 00:23:11.824
 But what I found is that if
 
 00:23:11.864 --> 00:23:13.805
 you track the movements of
 
 00:23:13.865 --> 00:23:15.866
 Tedious Gung between, you know,
 
 00:23:15.946 --> 00:23:18.450
 seventeen forty nine and
 
 00:23:18.589 --> 00:23:19.691
 seventeen sixty three when
 
 00:23:19.711 --> 00:23:20.632
 he's assassinated.
 
 00:23:21.797 --> 00:23:23.459
 It tells a lot about that
 
 00:23:23.499 --> 00:23:25.740
 contested nature of the
 
 00:23:25.780 --> 00:23:26.781
 northern Susquehanna River
 
 00:23:26.801 --> 00:23:28.763
 Valley between not just
 
 00:23:29.304 --> 00:23:32.067
 native peoples and British colonists,
 
 00:23:32.106 --> 00:23:33.627
 settlers, speculators, et cetera,
 
 00:23:33.948 --> 00:23:35.569
 but also between native peoples.
 
 00:23:36.270 --> 00:23:36.730
 So T.D.A.
 
 00:23:36.750 --> 00:23:38.432
 Skung is a Lenape leader that...
 
 00:23:40.233 --> 00:23:42.454
 the Haudenosaunee believe is subjected,
 
 00:23:43.096 --> 00:23:43.375
 right,
 
 00:23:43.895 --> 00:23:45.317
 that is a tributary or prop of the
 
 00:23:45.356 --> 00:23:46.917
 Longhouse, but he doesn't want to be,
 
 00:23:47.097 --> 00:23:47.357
 right?
 
 00:23:47.897 --> 00:23:49.598
 He's sort of claiming his own independence,
 
 00:23:49.638 --> 00:23:51.339
 but he's also working with
 
 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:53.121
 a multinational group of
 
 00:23:53.161 --> 00:23:55.582
 people to really claim
 
 00:23:55.642 --> 00:23:56.823
 authority over the northern
 
 00:23:56.863 --> 00:23:57.824
 Susquehanna River Valley.
 
 00:23:58.364 --> 00:24:03.165
 And that sort of like quest, right,
 
 00:24:03.205 --> 00:24:04.826
 for independence doesn't
 
 00:24:04.866 --> 00:24:06.147
 die with tedious skunk.
 
 00:24:06.968 --> 00:24:07.828
 It actually is carried
 
 00:24:07.868 --> 00:24:09.369
 through again by his son,
 
 00:24:10.828 --> 00:24:11.670
 And if you track just
 
 00:24:11.690 --> 00:24:12.529
 Tedious Gong and then his
 
 00:24:12.589 --> 00:24:13.711
 son is Captain Bull,
 
 00:24:13.830 --> 00:24:16.113
 if you track their movements,
 
 00:24:16.153 --> 00:24:17.894
 so they move from Jersey
 
 00:24:18.273 --> 00:24:20.234
 over to Lehigh Valley, right?
 
 00:24:20.255 --> 00:24:21.695
 They move up near the Minisink.
 
 00:24:22.196 --> 00:24:24.238
 Then they move over into the
 
 00:24:24.417 --> 00:24:25.699
 East Branch at Wyoming.
 
 00:24:26.219 --> 00:24:27.859
 And when Tedious Gong is assassinated,
 
 00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:29.461
 they end up on the West Branch.
 
 00:24:29.922 --> 00:24:32.743
 So Captain Bull, Anonymous,
 
 00:24:33.223 --> 00:24:35.424
 and several other new alike, Shawana Ben,
 
 00:24:36.165 --> 00:24:37.807
 they end up in this territory.
 
 00:24:39.048 --> 00:24:39.208
 And
 
 00:24:40.289 --> 00:24:41.490
 in on the west branch and
 
 00:24:41.510 --> 00:24:42.050
 all of a sudden you
 
 00:24:42.070 --> 00:24:43.551
 understand well what are
 
 00:24:43.571 --> 00:24:44.452
 they bringing with them
 
 00:24:44.492 --> 00:24:47.015
 when we have the squatters
 
 00:24:47.095 --> 00:24:48.275
 arriving in late sixty
 
 00:24:48.395 --> 00:24:49.375
 eight right they think this
 
 00:24:49.655 --> 00:24:50.876
 this contest is going to
 
 00:24:50.916 --> 00:24:52.739
 continue um because there
 
 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:53.939
 are generational grievances
 
 00:24:53.959 --> 00:24:55.721
 here yeah who uh
 
 00:24:55.740 --> 00:24:58.402
 assassinates td stone uh
 
 00:24:58.422 --> 00:24:59.883
 that's a good question so
 
 00:25:00.124 --> 00:25:02.224
 it's unclear right uh it's
 
 00:25:02.285 --> 00:25:03.605
 unclear in the historical record
 
 00:25:04.692 --> 00:25:07.134
 There's not a lot spoken about his death,
 
 00:25:07.214 --> 00:25:07.535
 right?
 
 00:25:07.816 --> 00:25:08.096
 I mean,
 
 00:25:08.135 --> 00:25:09.696
 there's no condolence ceremony that
 
 00:25:09.717 --> 00:25:10.377
 you can find.
 
 00:25:12.619 --> 00:25:13.401
 Some have claims,
 
 00:25:13.681 --> 00:25:14.642
 so Connecticut have claimed
 
 00:25:14.721 --> 00:25:16.203
 and early writers claimed
 
 00:25:16.243 --> 00:25:17.204
 that it was the
 
 00:25:17.224 --> 00:25:19.267
 Haudenosaunee that assassinated T.D.
 
 00:25:19.326 --> 00:25:20.607
 Scum because he was sort of
 
 00:25:20.627 --> 00:25:22.690
 a thorn in their side.
 
 00:25:22.970 --> 00:25:24.912
 That's most likely wildly
 
 00:25:24.951 --> 00:25:26.753
 inaccurate based on the evidence.
 
 00:25:26.874 --> 00:25:27.654
 It looked like there was a
 
 00:25:27.734 --> 00:25:28.434
 softening of that
 
 00:25:28.474 --> 00:25:30.537
 relationship right at the time.
 
 00:25:30.817 --> 00:25:31.538
 They needed T.D.
 
 00:25:31.577 --> 00:25:32.940
 Scum at Wyoming because he
 
 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:33.760
 was stopping these
 
 00:25:33.800 --> 00:25:34.842
 Connecticut interlopers.
 
 00:25:34.902 --> 00:25:35.261
 Right.
 
 00:25:35.481 --> 00:25:36.563
 um it's it's it's most
 
 00:25:36.623 --> 00:25:37.844
 likely connecticut settlers
 
 00:25:37.884 --> 00:25:38.984
 I mean it's no coincidence
 
 00:25:39.005 --> 00:25:40.185
 they build a wagon road
 
 00:25:40.405 --> 00:25:43.087
 over to wyoming um right
 
 00:25:43.127 --> 00:25:45.589
 around the time uh that uh
 
 00:25:45.609 --> 00:25:46.611
 td scott is assassinated
 
 00:25:46.750 --> 00:25:47.832
 and they they have a
 
 00:25:47.852 --> 00:25:49.232
 settlement just north of
 
 00:25:49.272 --> 00:25:51.234
 his town right in the town
 
 00:25:51.255 --> 00:25:53.056
 that he's living in um like
 
 00:25:53.135 --> 00:25:54.876
 weeks after they burned
 
 00:25:54.938 --> 00:25:56.057
 that wyoming's burned to
 
 00:25:56.097 --> 00:25:57.799
 the ground and tds was killed
 
 00:25:59.295 --> 00:25:59.615
 Right.
 
 00:25:59.634 --> 00:26:00.535
 There's a certain chain of
 
 00:26:00.595 --> 00:26:02.175
 events that happens thereafter.
 
 00:26:02.195 --> 00:26:03.998
 That's right.
 
 00:26:04.077 --> 00:26:04.518
 Yeah.
 
 00:26:04.958 --> 00:26:05.198
 Right.
 
 00:26:05.258 --> 00:26:07.279
 Yes.
 
 00:26:07.500 --> 00:26:08.460
 We're talking with Chris
 
 00:26:08.500 --> 00:26:09.941
 Pearl about his book,
 
 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:11.461
 Declarations of Independence,
 
 00:26:11.521 --> 00:26:13.884
 Indigenous Resilience, Colonial Rivalries,
 
 00:26:13.963 --> 00:26:15.785
 and the Cost of Revolution.
 
 00:26:16.605 --> 00:26:18.467
 And then what side does
 
 00:26:18.507 --> 00:26:19.787
 Captain Bolt play then?
 
 00:26:19.807 --> 00:26:22.068
 Because then the war between
 
 00:26:22.108 --> 00:26:23.249
 the United States and Great
 
 00:26:23.289 --> 00:26:24.710
 Britain happens too.
 
 00:26:25.050 --> 00:26:27.291
 So can we talk
 
 00:26:31.708 --> 00:26:32.888
 contested?
 
 00:26:32.909 --> 00:26:33.009
 Sure.
 
 00:26:33.028 --> 00:26:34.588
 So Captain Bull, for example, I mean,
 
 00:26:35.230 --> 00:26:36.930
 he's pretty prevalent in
 
 00:26:36.970 --> 00:26:37.849
 northern Susquehanna River
 
 00:26:37.869 --> 00:26:39.230
 Valley during Pontiac's war.
 
 00:26:40.111 --> 00:26:42.811
 He's captured by Thomas King,
 
 00:26:43.511 --> 00:26:45.432
 who is an Oneida war captain,
 
 00:26:45.932 --> 00:26:46.573
 and some others.
 
 00:26:48.512 --> 00:26:52.355
 But he ultimately, we don't know.
 
 00:26:53.615 --> 00:26:54.875
 The record kind of runs cold.
 
 00:26:54.914 --> 00:26:56.875
 There's two sort of
 
 00:26:57.717 --> 00:26:58.657
 ways that we can think about
 
 00:26:58.698 --> 00:26:59.858
 what happens to Captain Bull.
 
 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:01.859
 Some say that Captain Bull
 
 00:27:01.921 --> 00:27:02.921
 ended up in what would be
 
 00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:04.843
 modern Braxton County, West Virginia.
 
 00:27:05.584 --> 00:27:06.243
 That was burned to the
 
 00:27:06.263 --> 00:27:07.244
 ground in seventy five.
 
 00:27:07.265 --> 00:27:08.385
 And then he lived out the
 
 00:27:08.425 --> 00:27:09.646
 last days of his life,
 
 00:27:09.826 --> 00:27:11.208
 dying of natural life,
 
 00:27:11.428 --> 00:27:12.429
 dying of natural causes.
 
 00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:14.250
 The other one is that the
 
 00:27:14.270 --> 00:27:15.250
 other story is that he will
 
 00:27:15.270 --> 00:27:17.373
 know never went to Braxton County.
 
 00:27:17.432 --> 00:27:18.994
 He ended up in the Ohio in
 
 00:27:20.215 --> 00:27:21.016
 sort of middle portion of
 
 00:27:21.036 --> 00:27:21.936
 the Ohio River Valley,
 
 00:27:22.897 --> 00:27:25.140
 where he joined forces
 
 00:27:26.463 --> 00:27:27.664
 with some of the
 
 00:27:27.744 --> 00:27:29.566
 anti-American groups that
 
 00:27:29.586 --> 00:27:30.506
 were siding with Britain
 
 00:27:31.307 --> 00:27:32.227
 and fought in the war and
 
 00:27:32.267 --> 00:27:33.867
 died in the war in seventeen eighty one.
 
 00:27:34.548 --> 00:27:34.788
 Right.
 
 00:27:34.868 --> 00:27:37.190
 But choices during during
 
 00:27:37.250 --> 00:27:38.951
 the revolution were were
 
 00:27:39.010 --> 00:27:41.432
 not like sort of monolithic.
 
 00:27:42.192 --> 00:27:42.472
 Right.
 
 00:27:42.492 --> 00:27:42.692
 Right.
 
 00:27:43.896 --> 00:27:45.117
 Native peoples from the Ohio
 
 00:27:45.137 --> 00:27:46.400
 to the West Branch are
 
 00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:47.540
 coming to their own
 
 00:27:47.580 --> 00:27:48.842
 conclusions and for their
 
 00:27:48.902 --> 00:27:50.403
 own causes about who
 
 00:27:50.423 --> 00:27:51.505
 they're supporting and what
 
 00:27:51.545 --> 00:27:53.106
 they're doing in the war.
 
 00:27:53.166 --> 00:27:53.708
 Early on,
 
 00:27:53.748 --> 00:27:55.489
 many are striking a neutral stance.
 
 00:27:55.569 --> 00:27:55.769
 I mean,
 
 00:27:55.930 --> 00:27:58.251
 it makes no sense to join in the
 
 00:27:58.271 --> 00:28:00.275
 war at this point when you
 
 00:28:00.295 --> 00:28:01.155
 don't know who's going to win.
 
 00:28:01.816 --> 00:28:02.016
 Right.
 
 00:28:02.375 --> 00:28:04.737
 And what's the outcome for you in that?
 
 00:28:04.797 --> 00:28:04.957
 Right.
 
 00:28:05.336 --> 00:28:06.977
 So those choices through neutrality.
 
 00:28:07.356 --> 00:28:08.958
 But what we see is that
 
 00:28:08.998 --> 00:28:09.958
 there's a lot of pressure
 
 00:28:10.038 --> 00:28:12.317
 placed on Native nations
 
 00:28:12.337 --> 00:28:13.898
 and peoples to choose sides.
 
 00:28:15.219 --> 00:28:16.479
 And they're also dealing
 
 00:28:16.499 --> 00:28:18.098
 with as the war is escalating,
 
 00:28:18.338 --> 00:28:20.759
 it's especially by seventy seven,
 
 00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:21.940
 seventy eight,
 
 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:23.681
 that the vision of the
 
 00:28:23.721 --> 00:28:25.800
 country is turning towards
 
 00:28:25.820 --> 00:28:27.461
 them and on their lands.
 
 00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:28.181
 Right.
 
 00:28:28.201 --> 00:28:29.382
 They have to make a choice.
 
 00:28:29.402 --> 00:28:30.422
 And who
 
 00:28:30.942 --> 00:28:32.182
 Who should they defend it from?
 
 00:28:32.982 --> 00:28:34.683
 So many choose to side with
 
 00:28:34.703 --> 00:28:36.105
 the British or to fight
 
 00:28:36.125 --> 00:28:37.105
 against the Americans.
 
 00:28:37.525 --> 00:28:39.385
 And it's funny because it's
 
 00:28:39.425 --> 00:28:40.227
 hard for me to say, well,
 
 00:28:40.247 --> 00:28:41.787
 they're British allies in the war.
 
 00:28:41.807 --> 00:28:42.468
 Well, they are.
 
 00:28:42.748 --> 00:28:43.567
 But it's not just siding
 
 00:28:43.587 --> 00:28:44.909
 with the British to side with the British,
 
 00:28:44.969 --> 00:28:45.148
 right?
 
 00:28:45.169 --> 00:28:47.069
 I mean, it's a decision to be made.
 
 00:28:47.569 --> 00:28:48.990
 about how do you maintain
 
 00:28:49.010 --> 00:28:50.211
 your land and sovereignty
 
 00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:51.491
 and what's the best avenue
 
 00:28:51.511 --> 00:28:53.813
 to achieve that.
 
 00:28:54.192 --> 00:28:55.394
 And American passions are
 
 00:28:55.453 --> 00:28:57.314
 sort of spilling over into
 
 00:28:57.354 --> 00:28:58.394
 the public press.
 
 00:28:58.994 --> 00:28:59.915
 They're spilling over into
 
 00:28:59.935 --> 00:29:01.695
 the actions on the ground
 
 00:29:02.576 --> 00:29:03.676
 with Native peoples.
 
 00:29:04.196 --> 00:29:05.917
 And so sometimes the choices are clear.
 
 00:29:06.238 --> 00:29:09.920
 One of my favorite quotes
 
 00:29:09.940 --> 00:29:11.740
 from the time is from a Seneca leader.
 
 00:29:12.711 --> 00:29:14.692
 who said, you know, and I have the title,
 
 00:29:14.892 --> 00:29:16.333
 it's called the title of savages.
 
 00:29:16.633 --> 00:29:18.554
 It's one of the chapters in my book,
 
 00:29:19.315 --> 00:29:20.394
 but he points out that if
 
 00:29:20.474 --> 00:29:21.435
 we had the means of
 
 00:29:21.496 --> 00:29:23.696
 publishing through the world, right?
 
 00:29:24.538 --> 00:29:25.258
 Some of the things you've
 
 00:29:25.298 --> 00:29:26.759
 done to our women and children,
 
 00:29:26.798 --> 00:29:28.019
 the title of savages would
 
 00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:30.881
 be more appropriately placed on you.
 
 00:29:31.301 --> 00:29:32.843
 And what that tells me is two things,
 
 00:29:32.923 --> 00:29:33.163
 right?
 
 00:29:34.103 --> 00:29:35.883
 and one major one is that he
 
 00:29:35.923 --> 00:29:38.144
 is fundamentally aware of
 
 00:29:38.203 --> 00:29:39.983
 the public press and the
 
 00:29:40.044 --> 00:29:42.845
 way that Native peoples are described,
 
 00:29:42.865 --> 00:29:44.305
 right?
 
 00:29:44.505 --> 00:29:45.405
 And Native warfare is
 
 00:29:45.445 --> 00:29:48.145
 described for popular consumption to,
 
 00:29:48.165 --> 00:29:49.707
 you know, as John Adams said,
 
 00:29:49.727 --> 00:29:52.406
 to increase the passions of men,
 
 00:29:52.507 --> 00:29:54.028
 to harness their prejudices
 
 00:29:54.367 --> 00:29:56.847
 and their angers and their fears, right?
 
 00:29:56.907 --> 00:29:59.449
 He's very much aware of this.
 
 00:29:59.469 --> 00:29:59.969
 Oh, right, right.
 
 00:30:00.868 --> 00:30:01.109
 Yeah,
 
 00:30:01.130 --> 00:30:02.490
 there's that line in the Declaration
 
 00:30:02.510 --> 00:30:03.771
 of Independence about one
 
 00:30:03.791 --> 00:30:05.634
 of the atrocities the king has committed.
 
 00:30:05.933 --> 00:30:06.154
 Yeah.
 
 00:30:09.878 --> 00:30:11.660
 Joseph Brandt is a fascinating character,
 
 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:13.142
 whichever side he's on and
 
 00:30:13.301 --> 00:30:14.502
 whatever he's doing.
 
 00:30:14.762 --> 00:30:16.285
 So he's doing exactly what you're saying,
 
 00:30:16.325 --> 00:30:16.605
 that is,
 
 00:30:16.644 --> 00:30:17.946
 he's figuring out what is in the
 
 00:30:17.987 --> 00:30:19.268
 best interest of him and
 
 00:30:19.288 --> 00:30:21.651
 the Mohawk and playing that
 
 00:30:21.691 --> 00:30:23.772
 very astutely throughout this period.
 
 00:30:24.538 --> 00:30:27.019
 And he does play a role in
 
 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:28.000
 much of your story,
 
 00:30:28.060 --> 00:30:30.262
 although he's not from there.
 
 00:30:32.267 --> 00:30:33.087
 Yeah, he's sort of,
 
 00:30:34.669 --> 00:30:35.769
 in the book that I have,
 
 00:30:35.788 --> 00:30:37.170
 he's sort of on the fringes
 
 00:30:38.131 --> 00:30:40.071
 of what I'm writing about
 
 00:30:40.112 --> 00:30:41.393
 and thinking about and
 
 00:30:41.413 --> 00:30:42.233
 what's happening there.
 
 00:30:42.534 --> 00:30:43.894
 But he does play a significant role,
 
 00:30:43.934 --> 00:30:44.494
 particularly when he's
 
 00:30:44.515 --> 00:30:45.836
 trying to gin up support
 
 00:30:47.136 --> 00:30:49.057
 for fighting against the
 
 00:30:49.077 --> 00:30:50.959
 Americans during the Revolution.
 
 00:30:51.099 --> 00:30:52.540
 So Brandt's really
 
 00:30:52.580 --> 00:30:53.921
 significant in that way.
 
 00:30:54.501 --> 00:30:55.563
 But he's also significant
 
 00:30:55.583 --> 00:30:57.124
 for me in the way I'm looking at it,
 
 00:30:57.183 --> 00:30:58.484
 is that he's not entirely
 
 00:30:58.545 --> 00:31:01.686
 successful on the West Branch,
 
 00:31:02.626 --> 00:31:04.367
 um for example of getting
 
 00:31:04.387 --> 00:31:06.008
 people there to support
 
 00:31:06.067 --> 00:31:07.348
 more against the americans
 
 00:31:07.969 --> 00:31:11.049
 or you know or even um to
 
 00:31:11.089 --> 00:31:12.450
 join his cause right there
 
 00:31:12.490 --> 00:31:14.570
 are many neutral uh people
 
 00:31:14.971 --> 00:31:15.770
 living there there are
 
 00:31:15.790 --> 00:31:17.351
 those that are not quite
 
 00:31:17.391 --> 00:31:18.491
 made up a decision of what
 
 00:31:18.511 --> 00:31:19.672
 they're going to do and
 
 00:31:19.692 --> 00:31:20.412
 brandt's just not
 
 00:31:20.451 --> 00:31:21.992
 convincing to them one of
 
 00:31:22.012 --> 00:31:22.833
 the things that I like
 
 00:31:22.873 --> 00:31:24.053
 though when we move through
 
 00:31:24.073 --> 00:31:25.173
 brandt's stories just how
 
 00:31:25.213 --> 00:31:29.055
 astute he is about the political climate
 
 00:31:30.459 --> 00:31:33.220
 of early America,
 
 00:31:33.579 --> 00:31:35.480
 of this young sort of fledgling republic.
 
 00:31:35.921 --> 00:31:37.142
 He understands the Articles
 
 00:31:37.162 --> 00:31:38.761
 of Confederation, for example.
 
 00:31:39.143 --> 00:31:42.203
 He understands these clear
 
 00:31:42.223 --> 00:31:44.464
 divisions between the
 
 00:31:44.505 --> 00:31:45.585
 different states and how he
 
 00:31:45.605 --> 00:31:47.066
 could potentially play them off.
 
 00:31:48.787 --> 00:31:50.446
 But what is significant, too,
 
 00:31:50.507 --> 00:31:51.548
 is that when Brandt
 
 00:31:52.366 --> 00:31:55.148
 moves to Grand River, right, in Canada,
 
 00:31:55.588 --> 00:31:56.849
 many of the Susquehanna
 
 00:31:56.890 --> 00:31:59.192
 nations join him by
 
 00:31:59.231 --> 00:32:00.952
 seventeen eighty five.
 
 00:32:00.972 --> 00:32:02.933
 We see that Holden has this
 
 00:32:03.034 --> 00:32:05.675
 great I think it's in
 
 00:32:05.875 --> 00:32:07.116
 eighty in eighty five.
 
 00:32:07.596 --> 00:32:08.417
 I have to look now,
 
 00:32:09.018 --> 00:32:09.898
 but he has a sort of
 
 00:32:09.939 --> 00:32:12.380
 breakdown of who's there at Grand River.
 
 00:32:13.040 --> 00:32:14.261
 Almost two thousand people.
 
 00:32:14.422 --> 00:32:15.762
 Many of them are coming from
 
 00:32:15.803 --> 00:32:17.523
 the north branch of the
 
 00:32:17.564 --> 00:32:18.884
 Susquehanna River or from
 
 00:32:18.924 --> 00:32:21.747
 the area around like Tioga, for example.
 
 00:32:22.567 --> 00:32:24.388
 um the montour family which
 
 00:32:24.429 --> 00:32:25.549
 is prevalent all over the
 
 00:32:25.589 --> 00:32:26.911
 west branch is is also
 
 00:32:26.971 --> 00:32:29.313
 moving there and so by the
 
 00:32:29.333 --> 00:32:30.093
 end of the war we see
 
 00:32:30.133 --> 00:32:31.193
 there's this common cause
 
 00:32:31.233 --> 00:32:33.695
 there right in in a in a
 
 00:32:33.756 --> 00:32:36.898
 common sort of um goal
 
 00:32:36.939 --> 00:32:38.440
 right to find land and find
 
 00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:40.361
 purpose and find a place
 
 00:32:40.381 --> 00:32:41.041
 that they can call their
 
 00:32:41.061 --> 00:32:44.884
 own that's okay um uh corn
 
 00:32:44.904 --> 00:32:45.744
 plant it's not corn
 
 00:32:45.765 --> 00:32:46.965
 planters another character
 
 00:32:46.986 --> 00:32:48.227
 who really is still a
 
 00:32:48.488 --> 00:32:49.448
 little bit kind of large in
 
 00:32:49.468 --> 00:32:50.368
 this uh I don't want to say
 
 00:32:50.409 --> 00:32:51.490
 anything about
 
 00:32:56.628 --> 00:32:57.789
 chief corn planter and what he's up to?
 
 00:32:57.809 --> 00:32:57.990
 I think,
 
 00:32:58.010 --> 00:32:59.811
 so corn planters are really fascinating.
 
 00:33:00.772 --> 00:33:02.034
 I use him, so he's,
 
 00:33:03.035 --> 00:33:03.996
 he shows up in my book in
 
 00:33:04.036 --> 00:33:04.757
 two different ways.
 
 00:33:04.977 --> 00:33:06.519
 One, you know,
 
 00:33:06.638 --> 00:33:08.740
 in when he embraces sort of
 
 00:33:08.760 --> 00:33:09.340
 the war against the
 
 00:33:09.361 --> 00:33:10.662
 Americans and the reasons for that.
 
 00:33:10.682 --> 00:33:10.903
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:11.303 --> 00:33:11.502
 Right.
 
 00:33:11.542 --> 00:33:11.804
 I mean,
 
 00:33:11.884 --> 00:33:13.486
 encroachments on land are very
 
 00:33:13.526 --> 00:33:15.388
 significant to that choice
 
 00:33:15.849 --> 00:33:17.131
 and who can be and who can
 
 00:33:17.211 --> 00:33:17.972
 actually benefit,
 
 00:33:18.073 --> 00:33:19.295
 who they can benefit from.
 
 00:33:19.954 --> 00:33:20.896
 But also later,
 
 00:33:21.096 --> 00:33:23.520
 like when the decisions are made, right,
 
 00:33:23.540 --> 00:33:25.123
 and how Americans,
 
 00:33:25.323 --> 00:33:26.984
 how American diplomacy works.
 
 00:33:28.666 --> 00:33:30.207
 yeah in in it's very
 
 00:33:30.247 --> 00:33:32.548
 coercive right jettison
 
 00:33:32.788 --> 00:33:35.209
 this um older established
 
 00:33:35.249 --> 00:33:36.829
 diplomatic form for
 
 00:33:36.890 --> 00:33:39.851
 something um that is far
 
 00:33:39.891 --> 00:33:41.632
 more top down far more
 
 00:33:41.692 --> 00:33:44.113
 commanding right and and
 
 00:33:44.133 --> 00:33:45.432
 corn planter is saying like
 
 00:33:45.472 --> 00:33:47.334
 we tried to resist but you
 
 00:33:47.354 --> 00:33:48.535
 know we couldn't in this
 
 00:33:48.555 --> 00:33:50.015
 moment but it didn't mean
 
 00:33:50.035 --> 00:33:51.175
 that we actually agreed
 
 00:33:51.736 --> 00:33:54.017
 yeah which I think is is a
 
 00:33:54.076 --> 00:33:55.096
 fantastic way of
 
 00:33:55.116 --> 00:33:56.117
 understanding like this
 
 00:33:56.157 --> 00:33:57.518
 period is this is highly
 
 00:33:57.557 --> 00:33:58.838
 contested even after the
 
 00:33:58.919 --> 00:34:00.740
 the eighty-four uh fort
 
 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:01.559
 damwick street this is
 
 00:34:01.579 --> 00:34:03.901
 still a contested uh space
 
 00:34:04.060 --> 00:34:06.521
 it's still um something
 
 00:34:06.561 --> 00:34:08.322
 that that they're willing
 
 00:34:08.382 --> 00:34:10.704
 to try to get back uh
 
 00:34:10.744 --> 00:34:11.704
 particularly corn planter
 
 00:34:11.824 --> 00:34:13.585
 asked for the susquehanna land back
 
 00:34:14.625 --> 00:34:15.806
 when he meets with Washington,
 
 00:34:15.846 --> 00:34:16.447
 for example.
 
 00:34:17.586 --> 00:34:18.128
 So, I mean,
 
 00:34:18.467 --> 00:34:20.809
 this is a continual and continuous story.
 
 00:34:21.250 --> 00:34:23.231
 And a core planner has to be on the mind,
 
 00:34:23.291 --> 00:34:24.052
 and I know he is,
 
 00:34:24.092 --> 00:34:25.213
 in the mind of Washington
 
 00:34:25.253 --> 00:34:26.233
 when the Walker brothers
 
 00:34:27.333 --> 00:34:29.454
 murder the two Seneca men
 
 00:34:29.474 --> 00:34:32.396
 on the banks of Pine Creek, right?
 
 00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:35.920
 Yeah.
 
 00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:37.041
 We're talking with Chris Pearl,
 
 00:34:37.061 --> 00:34:38.041
 Associate Professor of
 
 00:34:38.081 --> 00:34:39.561
 History at Lycoming College
 
 00:34:39.661 --> 00:34:40.842
 and author of Declarations
 
 00:34:40.882 --> 00:34:41.202
 of Independence.
 
 00:34:41.222 --> 00:34:41.503
 Chris, before
 
 00:34:52.452 --> 00:34:53.913
 And then this one is really
 
 00:34:54.153 --> 00:34:55.815
 a micro history that tells
 
 00:34:55.835 --> 00:34:57.096
 this much bigger story.
 
 00:34:57.255 --> 00:34:58.577
 So I'm wondering what led
 
 00:34:58.597 --> 00:34:59.539
 you to this particular
 
 00:34:59.579 --> 00:35:00.739
 project and how you
 
 00:35:01.701 --> 00:35:03.121
 happened to be able to pull it off.
 
 00:35:03.914 --> 00:35:05.675
 Yeah, it's a really good question.
 
 00:35:05.735 --> 00:35:08.054
 So I was working on
 
 00:35:08.094 --> 00:35:09.135
 something totally else.
 
 00:35:09.675 --> 00:35:11.596
 I was working on executives,
 
 00:35:11.655 --> 00:35:12.777
 like looking at governors
 
 00:35:12.817 --> 00:35:14.097
 during the American Revolution.
 
 00:35:14.637 --> 00:35:15.436
 But I also have this,
 
 00:35:15.858 --> 00:35:16.838
 and since I've moved here
 
 00:35:16.858 --> 00:35:17.717
 to Lycoming College,
 
 00:35:17.737 --> 00:35:19.498
 which is literally situated
 
 00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:20.918
 on the land that I'm writing about,
 
 00:35:20.938 --> 00:35:22.340
 it's right next to the Fair
 
 00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:23.260
 Play Republic.
 
 00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:24.000
 I live like,
 
 00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:27.021
 twenty miles away from the
 
 00:35:27.121 --> 00:35:28.981
 Chiadot and Elm, which is no longer there,
 
 00:35:29.001 --> 00:35:30.342
 it succumbed to Dutch Elm disease.
 
 00:35:31.378 --> 00:35:32.498
 And so it's a constant story.
 
 00:35:32.538 --> 00:35:34.079
 If you're a Pennsylvania historian,
 
 00:35:34.099 --> 00:35:35.338
 you know of the Fair Play Men,
 
 00:35:35.378 --> 00:35:36.458
 but you don't know a lot about them.
 
 00:35:36.498 --> 00:35:37.978
 It's like usually thrown out
 
 00:35:38.018 --> 00:35:39.980
 there as a line or two, right?
 
 00:35:40.460 --> 00:35:43.260
 And so I started teaching this story.
 
 00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:45.880
 And so it incorporated into
 
 00:35:46.601 --> 00:35:48.260
 my American Revolution classes,
 
 00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:50.581
 incorporated into some of
 
 00:35:50.601 --> 00:35:52.362
 my sort of early Republic classes.
 
 00:35:53.702 --> 00:35:56.003
 And then COVID happened.
 
 00:35:57.092 --> 00:35:58.052
 I'm living in this place.
 
 00:35:58.112 --> 00:35:59.112
 I'm living in this space and
 
 00:35:59.492 --> 00:36:01.353
 I need something that I'm
 
 00:36:01.454 --> 00:36:02.173
 really interested in.
 
 00:36:02.233 --> 00:36:03.494
 I sort of pivoted in that
 
 00:36:03.514 --> 00:36:04.695
 direction because I wrote
 
 00:36:04.715 --> 00:36:05.474
 an article on it.
 
 00:36:06.534 --> 00:36:08.755
 And so for my own sanity,
 
 00:36:08.815 --> 00:36:09.735
 I started reaching out
 
 00:36:09.795 --> 00:36:11.617
 around twenty around twenty twenty one.
 
 00:36:12.157 --> 00:36:13.117
 I had a lot of documents
 
 00:36:13.157 --> 00:36:13.958
 already on it because I had
 
 00:36:13.998 --> 00:36:15.079
 been teaching it for years.
 
 00:36:15.838 --> 00:36:17.460
 But I reached out and I'm
 
 00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:19.021
 really appreciative to the
 
 00:36:19.041 --> 00:36:19.942
 Pennsylvania Historical
 
 00:36:19.981 --> 00:36:20.722
 Museum Commission.
 
 00:36:20.742 --> 00:36:21.782
 I'm really appreciative to
 
 00:36:22.163 --> 00:36:23.103
 the Historical Society of
 
 00:36:23.123 --> 00:36:26.244
 Pennsylvania in really some of those, say,
 
 00:36:26.284 --> 00:36:28.266
 dark days where they were
 
 00:36:28.326 --> 00:36:30.427
 like totally willing to
 
 00:36:30.867 --> 00:36:31.887
 provide me with some of the
 
 00:36:31.909 --> 00:36:33.009
 documents that I needed.
 
 00:36:33.469 --> 00:36:34.429
 And then I was able to
 
 00:36:34.489 --> 00:36:36.590
 college once things opened back up,
 
 00:36:36.731 --> 00:36:37.532
 was able to travel.
 
 00:36:38.251 --> 00:36:39.092
 again and get to the
 
 00:36:39.152 --> 00:36:40.213
 archives and sort of start
 
 00:36:40.253 --> 00:36:41.172
 piecing this together.
 
 00:36:41.592 --> 00:36:42.793
 But it really came out of
 
 00:36:43.253 --> 00:36:44.233
 this moment of like, well,
 
 00:36:44.253 --> 00:36:45.554
 what am I going to work on here?
 
 00:36:47.353 --> 00:36:48.253
 I've been immersed in
 
 00:36:48.313 --> 00:36:49.454
 Pennsylvania for so long.
 
 00:36:49.755 --> 00:36:50.614
 I'm living in this area.
 
 00:36:50.635 --> 00:36:51.355
 I've been teaching this.
 
 00:36:51.394 --> 00:36:52.574
 I think it's a great story.
 
 00:36:53.155 --> 00:36:55.775
 I think it evolved very
 
 00:36:55.815 --> 00:36:57.297
 differently than I imagined
 
 00:36:57.757 --> 00:36:58.556
 when I first began.
 
 00:36:58.657 --> 00:37:00.536
 But it was a great sort of
 
 00:37:01.137 --> 00:37:02.077
 project to tackle.
 
 00:37:02.137 --> 00:37:03.958
 And I think it highlights a
 
 00:37:03.998 --> 00:37:05.418
 lot of what I think about
 
 00:37:05.458 --> 00:37:07.099
 the American Revolution at this moment.
 
 00:37:08.608 --> 00:37:09.009
 It really does.
 
 00:37:09.028 --> 00:37:09.710
 It's a great book.
 
 00:37:09.889 --> 00:37:12.152
 So we've been talking to Chris Pearl,
 
 00:37:12.211 --> 00:37:14.072
 author of Declarations of Independence,
 
 00:37:14.112 --> 00:37:17.755
 Indigenous Resilience, Colonial Rivalries,
 
 00:37:18.195 --> 00:37:19.737
 and the Cost of Revolution.
 
 00:37:20.478 --> 00:37:22.400
 And so thank you for writing
 
 00:37:22.420 --> 00:37:23.500
 it and telling these
 
 00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:26.842
 stories and making us think about it.
 
 00:37:40.168 --> 00:37:42.530
 who we know are tuning in regularly.
 
 00:37:42.570 --> 00:37:43.751
 So this week we pull in,
 
 00:37:44.213 --> 00:37:45.815
 in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania,
 
 00:37:45.855 --> 00:37:47.577
 in Philadelphia and Coatesville,
 
 00:37:48.137 --> 00:37:48.858
 and here in the
 
 00:37:48.898 --> 00:37:50.300
 Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
 
 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:51.400
 in the town of Delrica,
 
 00:37:52.001 --> 00:37:53.744
 and the state of Washington, Walgreens,
 
 00:37:54.144 --> 00:37:56.527
 Maple Valley, Monmouth, Maine, Frankfurt,
 
 00:37:56.567 --> 00:37:57.889
 Germany, Amman, Jordan,
 
 00:37:57.909 --> 00:37:59.451
 and all places between and beyond,