Forgotten Patriots with Ray Anthony Shepard

A conversation with award-winning author Ray Anthony Shepard, who is introducing young readers to stories from American history focused on race.  He has written on the the vaunted 54th Regiment of Massachusetts Infantry, as well as a book about Ona Judge, a seamstress who escaped from the Washington household, and is has just finished The Forgotten: Patriots of Color at Lexington & Concord,,  focusing on the 19th of April 1775 from the perspective of African-Americans who were there that day fighting or observing---alarm-rider Abel Benson, soldiers Prince Estabrook and Peter Salem, Hartwell Tavern keeper Violet Thayer.  We talk about the challenges of engaging younger readers and the importance of understanding the American story in all its complexity. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the Revolution
 
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 Two Fifty podcast.
 
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 I am Bob Allison.
 
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 I chair the Revolution Two
 
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 Fifty Advisory Group.
 
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 We are a consortium of
 
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 seventy five organizations
 
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 in Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of the
 
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 beginnings of American independence.
 
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 And our guest today is Ray
 
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 Anthony Shepherd,
 
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 who's an award winning biographer.
 
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 He came to this after a
 
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 career as a teacher and as
 
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 a textbook editor.
 
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 He's also a member of the
 
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 Massachusetts Commission on
 
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 the two hundred fiftieth
 
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 anniversary of the American Revolution,
 
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 a fellow of the Mass Historical Society.
 
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 So, Ray, thank you for joining us.
 
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 Well, thank you, Bob.
 
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 And I'm pleased to be here.
 
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 And your books include
 
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 you've done a book on own a
 
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 judge and a book on the
 
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 Massachusetts fifty fourth.
 
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 And you have a book coming
 
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 out early next year called The Forgotten.
 
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 Patriots of Color at
 
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 Lexington and Concord.
 
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 Your books mainly are for young readers,
 
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 but I think people of all
 
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 ages will learn and enjoy them.
 
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 What I try to do is write
 
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 biographies that appeal to
 
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 young readers and the young
 
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 at heart from ten to a
 
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 hundred in terms of both
 
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 adults and young readers.
 
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 For me,
 
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 that's very important because it's
 
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 a way of reaching a number of people and
 
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 changing or helping them
 
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 better understand the role
 
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 of race in American history,
 
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 and of course, in their lives.
 
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 And in doing it in such a
 
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 way that by reading a book,
 
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 it's a safe place to think
 
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 about questions that
 
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 perhaps been on their mind,
 
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 but they can find an answer, as I said,
 
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 in a safe place in a way that
 
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 And it increases their full
 
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 understanding of American history.
 
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 And your book on the
 
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 Massachusetts fifty fourth
 
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 focuses on two of the
 
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 soldiers in that regiment.
 
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 And I'm just wondering about
 
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 the focus in the forgotten
 
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 the book about the
 
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 Lexington and conquer
 
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 that's coming out next year.
 
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 I mean,
 
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 how do you approach that big subject?
 
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 Well,
 
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 I'm focused on the first day of the
 
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 American Revolution.
 
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 That is the morning of the April,
 
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 and if you think of the
 
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 events of that day,
 
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 from the alarm riders,
 
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 the marching of the British,
 
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 the massacre at Lexington,
 
 00:02:45.704 --> 00:02:48.724
 moving on to Concord, the retreat,
 
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 and eventually crossing
 
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 back over into Charlestown.
 
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 That's an incredible day in which
 
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 It is not an overstatement when Emerson,
 
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 a hundred years later,
 
 00:03:01.562 --> 00:03:04.205
 says the shot heard around the world.
 
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 Four thousand people,
 
 00:03:07.325 --> 00:03:08.187
 an estimate of four
 
 00:03:08.227 --> 00:03:11.008
 thousand patriots
 
 00:03:11.329 --> 00:03:13.509
 participated in that battle
 
 00:03:14.009 --> 00:03:15.971
 against some eight hundred
 
 00:03:16.091 --> 00:03:17.171
 British regulars.
 
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 But also,
 
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 what is erased from American
 
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 history is the fact that
 
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 as many as thirty forty um
 
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 enslaved americans also
 
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 participated in in in those
 
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 battles and so I'm telling
 
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 the story uh in the from
 
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 the perspective of those
 
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 patriots of color who were
 
 00:03:46.003 --> 00:03:47.465
 at lexington who were at
 
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 concord who were a young
 
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 kid nine-year-old who was
 
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 alarm writer and so and
 
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 That's what I'm trying.
 
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 That's what I've done in
 
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 this particular book.
 
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 Now,
 
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 do you find it important when you're
 
 00:04:00.848 --> 00:04:01.990
 writing for young readers
 
 00:04:02.009 --> 00:04:03.170
 to have young characters
 
 00:04:03.211 --> 00:04:04.831
 like a nine-year-old?
 
 00:04:05.953 --> 00:04:06.633
 It varies.
 
 00:04:06.834 --> 00:04:09.955
 I think the traditional
 
 00:04:10.015 --> 00:04:11.296
 answer would be yes.
 
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 But if you're writing so
 
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 much about American history,
 
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 it happened obviously to adults.
 
 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:17.221
 That's not to say it didn't
 
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 happen for children.
 
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 But the key to writing for younger readers
 
 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:26.180
 is the way in which you draw
 
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 them into the story.
 
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 And so that's the emphasis.
 
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 How do you reach out and
 
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 grab a young reader and
 
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 pull them into the story?
 
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 And so it's about the
 
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 writing craft itself.
 
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 You're dealing with plot,
 
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 you're dealing with structure,
 
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 and you're dealing with the
 
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 transformation of a character.
 
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 And you have the book, A Long Time Coming,
 
 00:04:54.418 --> 00:04:56.137
 that's done in verse.
 
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 And I'm wondering if you approach,
 
 00:04:57.838 --> 00:04:58.918
 is this also a book in
 
 00:04:58.978 --> 00:05:00.459
 verse or is this told through prose?
 
 00:05:00.980 --> 00:05:04.040
 No, it's The Forgottenness Through Verse.
 
 00:05:04.901 --> 00:05:05.982
 Okay, interesting, interesting.
 
 00:05:06.041 --> 00:05:07.161
 And again,
 
 00:05:07.201 --> 00:05:10.103
 that's a way for me to engage
 
 00:05:10.142 --> 00:05:12.963
 young readers.
 
 00:05:13.004 --> 00:05:13.663
 Can I ask why?
 
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 I mean, it works.
 
 00:05:15.704 --> 00:05:17.564
 I'm just curious of your choice of that.
 
 00:05:18.064 --> 00:05:19.865
 Well, think of...
 
 00:05:20.545 --> 00:05:23.216
 Think in terms when we were young readers,
 
 00:05:24.245 --> 00:05:25.464
 And think of your
 
 00:05:25.504 --> 00:05:27.466
 grandchildren or young readers today,
 
 00:05:28.146 --> 00:05:32.107
 what the many options that they have, um,
 
 00:05:32.146 --> 00:05:33.586
 whether it's video games or
 
 00:05:34.226 --> 00:05:36.447
 so-called screen time or
 
 00:05:36.548 --> 00:05:40.228
 graphic novels or organized sports,
 
 00:05:40.389 --> 00:05:42.269
 there's so much competition
 
 00:05:42.309 --> 00:05:43.189
 for their time.
 
 00:05:43.569 --> 00:05:44.449
 Right.
 
 00:05:44.730 --> 00:05:45.790
 And, um,
 
 00:05:46.269 --> 00:05:49.271
 so the purpose in writing to first
 
 00:05:49.391 --> 00:05:53.612
 is a way to quickly grab, um,
 
 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:56.622
 grab the reader, as I said earlier,
 
 00:05:56.841 --> 00:05:59.062
 and pull them into the story.
 
 00:05:59.201 --> 00:06:00.963
 And you can have really
 
 00:06:01.002 --> 00:06:04.863
 important questions in a
 
 00:06:04.963 --> 00:06:09.024
 succinct way that hopefully
 
 00:06:09.264 --> 00:06:12.786
 will stop them to consider.
 
 00:06:14.026 --> 00:06:15.567
 It lets them fill in a lot.
 
 00:06:15.747 --> 00:06:18.588
 I mean, you already cited Emerson,
 
 00:06:18.648 --> 00:06:20.249
 who captured that in verse,
 
 00:06:20.269 --> 00:06:21.809
 and we know about Longfellow and
 
 00:06:22.262 --> 00:06:22.762
 More recently,
 
 00:06:22.781 --> 00:06:23.603
 we've had the example of
 
 00:06:23.663 --> 00:06:25.704
 Hamilton telling the story
 
 00:06:26.363 --> 00:06:27.584
 in a way other than prose.
 
 00:06:28.045 --> 00:06:28.365
 Yes.
 
 00:06:28.644 --> 00:06:28.985
 Yes.
 
 00:06:29.524 --> 00:06:31.706
 And Hamilton's, you know,
 
 00:06:31.725 --> 00:06:34.146
 the Broadway play is an excellent,
 
 00:06:34.927 --> 00:06:35.887
 excellent example.
 
 00:06:36.988 --> 00:06:37.528
 Yeah.
 
 00:06:37.728 --> 00:06:38.389
 And again,
 
 00:06:38.528 --> 00:06:40.470
 but what I'm attempting to do is
 
 00:06:40.529 --> 00:06:43.451
 what I do is it's nonfiction.
 
 00:06:43.591 --> 00:06:46.752
 It's based on confirmed facts.
 
 00:06:46.913 --> 00:06:50.435
 It's richly researched fiction.
 
 00:06:51.564 --> 00:06:53.586
 and then condensed in a way
 
 00:06:53.865 --> 00:06:55.225
 to attract the reader.
 
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 Right.
 
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 So your nine-year-old actually existed.
 
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 Oh, yes.
 
 00:07:02.608 --> 00:07:04.089
 Abel Benson,
 
 00:07:04.110 --> 00:07:07.170
 he rode bareback on a horse
 
 00:07:07.211 --> 00:07:09.252
 from Framingham all the way
 
 00:07:09.271 --> 00:07:11.091
 to Newton playing his
 
 00:07:11.172 --> 00:07:13.072
 grandfather's trumpet.
 
 00:07:13.812 --> 00:07:15.533
 Wow.
 
 00:07:15.793 --> 00:07:17.894
 And calling, as I say,
 
 00:07:18.175 --> 00:07:19.735
 calling farmers from their
 
 00:07:19.776 --> 00:07:20.596
 morning chores.
 
 00:07:21.903 --> 00:07:23.303
 Well, that's an extraordinary image,
 
 00:07:23.384 --> 00:07:26.627
 extraordinary story about the ride,
 
 00:07:26.966 --> 00:07:27.588
 the trumpet.
 
 00:07:28.208 --> 00:07:28.528
 Yes.
 
 00:07:29.389 --> 00:07:32.372
 And so let me ask the inevitable question,
 
 00:07:32.732 --> 00:07:33.872
 why haven't we heard of
 
 00:07:34.052 --> 00:07:35.853
 Abel Benson and this ride
 
 00:07:35.913 --> 00:07:39.557
 more frequently?
 
 00:07:39.838 --> 00:07:40.057
 Well,
 
 00:07:40.117 --> 00:07:45.322
 it goes to the question of a lot of...
 
 00:07:46.663 --> 00:07:48.125
 A lot about American history,
 
 00:07:48.165 --> 00:07:51.206
 and particularly of people of color,
 
 00:07:51.605 --> 00:07:52.927
 it's been ignored,
 
 00:07:54.788 --> 00:07:55.827
 certainly not included.
 
 00:07:55.927 --> 00:07:56.449
 I don't want to,
 
 00:07:56.488 --> 00:07:59.649
 but I think that's the best
 
 00:07:59.689 --> 00:08:00.651
 way to describe it.
 
 00:08:01.331 --> 00:08:04.632
 And if you think in terms of school books,
 
 00:08:04.653 --> 00:08:06.793
 there's a way in which we
 
 00:08:08.053 --> 00:08:10.214
 gain our common and shared
 
 00:08:10.375 --> 00:08:11.915
 knowledge of history.
 
 00:08:13.218 --> 00:08:14.999
 of our country and of our history.
 
 00:08:15.019 --> 00:08:19.021
 And the school books are broad strokes.
 
 00:08:19.041 --> 00:08:20.963
 And so it's always a
 
 00:08:21.083 --> 00:08:24.446
 question of what can be covered.
 
 00:08:26.867 --> 00:08:26.947
 Yeah.
 
 00:08:26.968 --> 00:08:27.048
 Yeah,
 
 00:08:27.067 --> 00:08:28.309
 there's a limited amount of things
 
 00:08:28.329 --> 00:08:29.488
 that you can cover.
 
 00:08:29.569 --> 00:08:31.031
 And so who are some of the
 
 00:08:31.071 --> 00:08:32.030
 other characters you've
 
 00:08:32.110 --> 00:08:35.153
 identified in The Forgotten
 
 00:08:35.173 --> 00:08:35.953
 that are going to be
 
 00:08:36.014 --> 00:08:37.394
 profiled or featured in the
 
 00:08:37.434 --> 00:08:38.375
 way you tell the story?
 
 00:08:39.030 --> 00:08:41.412
 Well, Prince Estabrook would be one,
 
 00:08:42.111 --> 00:08:44.833
 and Peter Salem.
 
 00:08:48.075 --> 00:08:48.716
 Those are,
 
 00:08:50.135 --> 00:08:53.378
 and a woman by the name of Violet Thayer,
 
 00:08:53.738 --> 00:08:59.000
 who was enslaved in the Hartwell Tavern.
 
 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:00.081
 And of course, as you know,
 
 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:01.140
 the Hartwell building,
 
 00:09:01.301 --> 00:09:03.042
 a tavern still stands today
 
 00:09:03.522 --> 00:09:04.263
 on Battle Road.
 
 00:09:06.244 --> 00:09:07.845
 So those are some.
 
 00:09:09.351 --> 00:09:11.253
 So you're focusing on the
 
 00:09:11.293 --> 00:09:12.754
 events of April nineteenth.
 
 00:09:12.794 --> 00:09:13.434
 But then again,
 
 00:09:13.595 --> 00:09:14.676
 the war goes on for eight
 
 00:09:14.716 --> 00:09:16.537
 years and these folks have
 
 00:09:16.596 --> 00:09:17.337
 long lives after.
 
 00:09:17.357 --> 00:09:19.119
 Have you found much on what
 
 00:09:19.178 --> 00:09:20.779
 happens to them afterward?
 
 00:09:21.520 --> 00:09:21.760
 Well,
 
 00:09:22.201 --> 00:09:24.043
 they all served in the Continental
 
 00:09:24.202 --> 00:09:28.765
 Army and for short periods of time.
 
 00:09:30.202 --> 00:09:32.264
 and then returned in case of
 
 00:09:32.323 --> 00:09:33.284
 prince estabrook for
 
 00:09:33.304 --> 00:09:34.785
 instance which who is most
 
 00:09:34.826 --> 00:09:37.567
 documented um returned to
 
 00:09:37.626 --> 00:09:41.448
 lexington um returned to um
 
 00:09:42.909 --> 00:09:44.691
 his owner even though by
 
 00:09:44.730 --> 00:09:46.951
 that time he was a freed
 
 00:09:46.991 --> 00:09:48.933
 person and lived with the
 
 00:09:48.974 --> 00:09:50.995
 esther brooks um for for
 
 00:09:51.034 --> 00:09:51.995
 the rest of his life
 
 00:09:52.355 --> 00:09:54.336
 including um when his
 
 00:09:55.365 --> 00:09:56.926
 the uh esther brooke the
 
 00:09:57.005 --> 00:09:58.865
 older esther brooke's son
 
 00:09:58.946 --> 00:10:01.047
 moved to ashby uh
 
 00:10:01.147 --> 00:10:02.587
 massachusetts to become a
 
 00:10:02.668 --> 00:10:04.589
 minister uh prince went
 
 00:10:04.609 --> 00:10:07.490
 with him and is buried in
 
 00:10:07.549 --> 00:10:09.110
 the the church cemetery
 
 00:10:09.169 --> 00:10:12.432
 there in in ashby we're
 
 00:10:12.471 --> 00:10:14.072
 talking with ray anthony
 
 00:10:14.111 --> 00:10:15.432
 shepherd award-winning
 
 00:10:15.472 --> 00:10:17.153
 biographer and his book the
 
 00:10:17.193 --> 00:10:18.854
 forgotten patriots of color
 
 00:10:18.894 --> 00:10:20.875
 at lexington and concord is going to be
 
 00:10:21.673 --> 00:10:24.514
 due out in February of twenty twenty six.
 
 00:10:24.734 --> 00:10:25.833
 So we look forward to that.
 
 00:10:27.394 --> 00:10:29.434
 So you are on the Mass.
 
 00:10:29.455 --> 00:10:30.894
 Two fiftieth commission and live,
 
 00:10:30.955 --> 00:10:31.335
 of course,
 
 00:10:31.355 --> 00:10:32.875
 in the historic town of Lincoln.
 
 00:10:33.434 --> 00:10:35.255
 Is that what made you think
 
 00:10:35.275 --> 00:10:36.336
 about doing a book about
 
 00:10:36.375 --> 00:10:37.395
 the American Revolution?
 
 00:10:38.735 --> 00:10:39.277
 For sure.
 
 00:10:39.297 --> 00:10:39.836
 I mean,
 
 00:10:40.836 --> 00:10:44.457
 I live less than a mile from the
 
 00:10:44.538 --> 00:10:46.278
 Minuteman Park or Battle Road.
 
 00:10:47.339 --> 00:10:49.418
 um and I'm often in
 
 00:10:49.499 --> 00:10:51.059
 lexington and so when you
 
 00:10:51.139 --> 00:10:53.720
 drive uh down bedford road
 
 00:10:53.779 --> 00:10:57.081
 and uh um and then along
 
 00:10:57.100 --> 00:10:59.881
 the metaman trail you see
 
 00:11:00.081 --> 00:11:01.322
 and of course into
 
 00:11:01.381 --> 00:11:03.701
 lexington you see busloads
 
 00:11:03.761 --> 00:11:05.182
 and busloads of tourists
 
 00:11:05.243 --> 00:11:08.543
 right and so you think what
 
 00:11:08.682 --> 00:11:10.303
 are they really being code
 
 00:11:10.344 --> 00:11:11.964
 and what do they really know
 
 00:11:13.701 --> 00:11:14.942
 as they stand there looking
 
 00:11:15.383 --> 00:11:16.602
 in front of the statue of
 
 00:11:16.643 --> 00:11:17.984
 the minute man or they walk
 
 00:11:18.063 --> 00:11:20.264
 over to the monument to the
 
 00:11:20.485 --> 00:11:22.065
 seven who were buried there
 
 00:11:23.025 --> 00:11:24.365
 maybe they go across the
 
 00:11:24.426 --> 00:11:26.006
 street and they'll see the
 
 00:11:26.047 --> 00:11:28.368
 stone marker for prince
 
 00:11:28.447 --> 00:11:30.048
 esther brooke but if they
 
 00:11:30.067 --> 00:11:32.068
 go into if they go into the
 
 00:11:33.883 --> 00:11:36.163
 Visitor Center and look at the diorama,
 
 00:11:37.004 --> 00:11:38.585
 there's no mention of Estabrook.
 
 00:11:38.924 --> 00:11:42.306
 And so there's the question,
 
 00:11:42.346 --> 00:11:44.105
 the diorama of nineteen
 
 00:11:44.166 --> 00:11:49.628
 sixty-four to the engraving on the stone,
 
 00:11:49.687 --> 00:11:54.950
 which is, I think, in nineteen ninety,
 
 00:11:55.070 --> 00:11:58.171
 shows the sort of progression,
 
 00:11:58.211 --> 00:11:58.791
 if you like,
 
 00:11:59.250 --> 00:12:01.011
 of awareness and of knowledge,
 
 00:12:01.392 --> 00:12:02.131
 acknowledgement.
 
 00:12:04.193 --> 00:12:06.395
 So that's what I'm trying to do.
 
 00:12:06.515 --> 00:12:07.275
 I want people,
 
 00:12:07.856 --> 00:12:09.758
 the hundreds of thousands of
 
 00:12:09.817 --> 00:12:11.399
 people who are coming into
 
 00:12:11.458 --> 00:12:13.620
 Massachusetts at Lexington
 
 00:12:13.640 --> 00:12:16.182
 and Concord and walking along the road,
 
 00:12:16.283 --> 00:12:17.803
 I want them to know that
 
 00:12:19.904 --> 00:12:23.107
 these patriots were there as well.
 
 00:12:24.048 --> 00:12:26.769
 And they fought for not only
 
 00:12:27.230 --> 00:12:29.312
 to be free of a king,
 
 00:12:29.672 --> 00:12:31.533
 but to be free of slavery.
 
 00:12:33.359 --> 00:12:35.301
 Do we know what inspired
 
 00:12:35.321 --> 00:12:36.442
 them or what motivated them?
 
 00:12:36.501 --> 00:12:37.682
 And that's the big question
 
 00:12:37.702 --> 00:12:38.624
 historians are always
 
 00:12:38.703 --> 00:12:40.005
 asking about anyone who is
 
 00:12:40.046 --> 00:12:41.106
 serving and what's the
 
 00:12:41.147 --> 00:12:42.748
 motivation and then how do
 
 00:12:42.768 --> 00:12:45.671
 you create it in the book?
 
 00:12:45.711 --> 00:12:45.890
 Well,
 
 00:12:46.032 --> 00:12:50.035
 I think it's as Phyllis Wheatley said,
 
 00:12:51.517 --> 00:12:53.178
 God has implanted in the
 
 00:12:55.018 --> 00:12:57.960
 breasts of a heart of humans
 
 00:12:58.081 --> 00:13:00.182
 this principle of freedom
 
 00:13:02.485 --> 00:13:04.407
 and I just it's obviously
 
 00:13:04.527 --> 00:13:08.811
 universal and so whether you're
 
 00:13:12.602 --> 00:13:15.583
 enslaved or not this desire freedom.
 
 00:13:15.703 --> 00:13:18.645
 And imagine you're living in a household,
 
 00:13:18.686 --> 00:13:19.285
 you're enslaved,
 
 00:13:19.306 --> 00:13:19.966
 you're living in a
 
 00:13:20.046 --> 00:13:24.207
 household and people are talking,
 
 00:13:24.248 --> 00:13:25.509
 your owners are talking
 
 00:13:25.589 --> 00:13:28.049
 about they're not going to
 
 00:13:28.129 --> 00:13:29.931
 pay taxes means they're
 
 00:13:29.990 --> 00:13:31.630
 going to be British slaves.
 
 00:13:31.912 --> 00:13:32.871
 And you're thinking about
 
 00:13:32.912 --> 00:13:35.113
 your own situation, your own status.
 
 00:13:37.854 --> 00:13:39.815
 We're talking with Ray Anthony Shepherd,
 
 00:13:39.835 --> 00:13:41.155
 award-winning biographer
 
 00:13:41.196 --> 00:13:41.956
 for young readers.
 
 00:13:42.375 --> 00:13:43.456
 Now, I'm wondering,
 
 00:13:44.255 --> 00:13:46.037
 who are some of the writers
 
 00:13:46.077 --> 00:13:48.139
 you read as a youth or a
 
 00:13:48.178 --> 00:13:49.820
 young person that inspired
 
 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:51.240
 you on the track toward
 
 00:13:51.341 --> 00:13:52.282
 exploring history?
 
 00:13:53.282 --> 00:13:55.943
 Well, there's the challenge.
 
 00:13:57.404 --> 00:14:02.567
 As someone who qualifies as
 
 00:14:02.587 --> 00:14:06.051
 a super senior citizen, the books
 
 00:14:07.107 --> 00:14:08.629
 that the type of books that
 
 00:14:08.729 --> 00:14:10.028
 I wanted to read or the
 
 00:14:10.590 --> 00:14:13.211
 type of books that I write didn't exist.
 
 00:14:16.212 --> 00:14:17.812
 I was a graduate student
 
 00:14:18.214 --> 00:14:20.254
 before I came in contact
 
 00:14:20.274 --> 00:14:26.937
 with any book written by a Black author.
 
 00:14:26.957 --> 00:14:29.239
 So that tells you a lot.
 
 00:14:29.298 --> 00:14:30.580
 And I went to a university
 
 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:31.620
 laboratory school.
 
 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:36.383
 And no, nothing.
 
 00:14:37.951 --> 00:14:39.652
 And you encountered Paul
 
 00:14:39.692 --> 00:14:42.293
 Laurence Dunbar or Langston Hughes,
 
 00:14:43.072 --> 00:14:45.693
 but you did, that was in church, no less,
 
 00:14:47.894 --> 00:14:50.715
 rather than in school.
 
 00:14:51.174 --> 00:14:52.475
 One of the books you did
 
 00:14:52.654 --> 00:14:54.115
 earlier on in your career
 
 00:14:54.335 --> 00:14:56.576
 was Charles W. Chestnut's
 
 00:14:56.596 --> 00:14:57.596
 The Conjure Tales.
 
 00:14:57.615 --> 00:14:59.115
 Can you tell us a little bit about that?
 
 00:14:59.976 --> 00:15:01.836
 Chestnut was a fascinating author.
 
 00:15:02.657 --> 00:15:03.017
 Yes.
 
 00:15:03.738 --> 00:15:05.460
 Why, you have done your research.
 
 00:15:06.681 --> 00:15:07.822
 Very few people know about
 
 00:15:07.861 --> 00:15:09.403
 that particular book.
 
 00:15:10.664 --> 00:15:15.208
 Chestnut is, and it's been a while,
 
 00:15:15.288 --> 00:15:16.090
 so bear with me.
 
 00:15:16.110 --> 00:15:16.951
 Okay.
 
 00:15:16.971 --> 00:15:20.394
 But you had Joe Tamra Harris
 
 00:15:20.634 --> 00:15:23.957
 and others who were writing about
 
 00:15:25.355 --> 00:15:27.655
 blocks in a comical way.
 
 00:15:28.317 --> 00:15:31.956
 And Chestnut is doing just the reverse.
 
 00:15:32.917 --> 00:15:35.597
 And so what I liked about
 
 00:15:35.697 --> 00:15:39.178
 the book was called Conjure Women.
 
 00:15:39.818 --> 00:15:41.558
 And what I liked about it
 
 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.399
 was this reversal, if you like.
 
 00:15:47.500 --> 00:15:49.660
 And so I retold that book
 
 00:15:49.701 --> 00:15:50.860
 for young readers.
 
 00:15:53.052 --> 00:15:56.413
 And just as a way to get at
 
 00:15:57.234 --> 00:15:59.214
 what I think are wonderful,
 
 00:15:59.514 --> 00:16:01.355
 wonderful tales, folk tales.
 
 00:16:01.674 --> 00:16:01.855
 Yes.
 
 00:16:01.875 --> 00:16:04.154
 And so that was a purpose.
 
 00:16:04.174 --> 00:16:05.375
 Right.
 
 00:16:05.455 --> 00:16:05.774
 Yeah.
 
 00:16:05.794 --> 00:16:07.316
 Chestnut, for those who don't know,
 
 00:16:07.416 --> 00:16:10.775
 was a journalist, writer, late-nineteenth,
 
 00:16:10.816 --> 00:16:12.236
 early-twentieth century,
 
 00:16:12.317 --> 00:16:14.076
 wrote tremendous short stories,
 
 00:16:14.277 --> 00:16:16.057
 really documenting this
 
 00:16:16.096 --> 00:16:17.778
 experience of this moment, you know,
 
 00:16:18.357 --> 00:16:20.418
 reconstruction, post-reconstruction.
 
 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:22.120
 He had one short story,
 
 00:16:22.140 --> 00:16:23.341
 The Passing of Grandison,
 
 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:24.241
 that I thought could be
 
 00:16:24.282 --> 00:16:25.142
 made into a movie.
 
 00:16:25.221 --> 00:16:26.663
 It's kind of a reversal of a
 
 00:16:26.702 --> 00:16:27.423
 lot of things.
 
 00:16:27.624 --> 00:16:28.644
 That's one of his real themes,
 
 00:16:28.663 --> 00:16:30.946
 is this reversal of roles and identities.
 
 00:16:31.605 --> 00:16:32.986
 Right.
 
 00:16:33.067 --> 00:16:34.008
 And it's interesting that
 
 00:16:34.048 --> 00:16:35.828
 we're talking about reversal of roles.
 
 00:16:35.889 --> 00:16:37.210
 Think of Percival.
 
 00:16:38.210 --> 00:16:40.071
 Everett right now with James,
 
 00:16:43.511 --> 00:16:45.332
 it's interesting that this
 
 00:16:45.493 --> 00:16:47.232
 concept or theme, if you like,
 
 00:16:47.293 --> 00:16:51.654
 or approach is still alive and well.
 
 00:16:52.774 --> 00:16:55.916
 And Chestnut is one of the
 
 00:16:56.076 --> 00:16:57.937
 originators of it.
 
 00:16:57.956 --> 00:16:58.496
 It really is, yeah.
 
 00:16:59.403 --> 00:16:59.562
 I mean,
 
 00:16:59.602 --> 00:17:01.563
 if you don't mind continuing on
 
 00:17:02.085 --> 00:17:04.766
 memory lane, you also wrote a novel,
 
 00:17:04.826 --> 00:17:07.607
 Sneakers, again about basketball.
 
 00:17:09.729 --> 00:17:11.369
 You have done too much research.
 
 00:17:14.070 --> 00:17:15.451
 Those books are written many,
 
 00:17:15.531 --> 00:17:16.492
 many years ago.
 
 00:17:18.513 --> 00:17:18.953
 Actually,
 
 00:17:18.993 --> 00:17:21.355
 when I was a graduate student at
 
 00:17:21.414 --> 00:17:25.758
 Harvard and I was thinking
 
 00:17:25.798 --> 00:17:27.358
 about writing as a career,
 
 00:17:28.689 --> 00:17:33.633
 But then reality took over.
 
 00:17:34.294 --> 00:17:37.236
 I called them mortgage, marriage, children,
 
 00:17:37.256 --> 00:17:40.698
 et cetera.
 
 00:17:40.718 --> 00:17:42.920
 And I went to work in
 
 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:44.340
 educational publishing.
 
 00:17:46.663 --> 00:17:48.064
 And then since retiring,
 
 00:17:48.663 --> 00:17:50.105
 I've had a chance in the
 
 00:17:50.164 --> 00:17:52.727
 last ten years to come back to writing.
 
 00:17:53.587 --> 00:17:56.789
 And the three recent books that I've
 
 00:17:58.240 --> 00:17:59.903
 did since retirement.
 
 00:18:00.242 --> 00:18:01.805
 Great, great.
 
 00:18:01.825 --> 00:18:03.807
 So we're talking with Ray Anthony Shepard,
 
 00:18:03.826 --> 00:18:05.627
 who has become a prolific
 
 00:18:05.647 --> 00:18:07.711
 writer of books for young audiences.
 
 00:18:07.750 --> 00:18:09.873
 And your book, A Long Time Coming,
 
 00:18:10.053 --> 00:18:11.614
 is a lyrical biography of
 
 00:18:11.673 --> 00:18:13.175
 race in America from Ona
 
 00:18:13.215 --> 00:18:15.117
 Judge to Barack Obama.
 
 00:18:15.298 --> 00:18:16.439
 It received the Julia Ward
 
 00:18:16.459 --> 00:18:19.122
 Howe Prize for children's older readers,
 
 00:18:19.162 --> 00:18:20.942
 as well as a school library
 
 00:18:21.002 --> 00:18:22.484
 journal best book.
 
 00:18:22.833 --> 00:18:24.755
 And that does tell the story
 
 00:18:24.775 --> 00:18:26.036
 of America from a somewhat
 
 00:18:26.096 --> 00:18:28.116
 different perspective, Ona Judge.
 
 00:18:28.897 --> 00:18:29.577
 And why don't we talk a
 
 00:18:29.597 --> 00:18:30.798
 little bit about Ona Judge
 
 00:18:30.818 --> 00:18:32.740
 and who she was and why she is important?
 
 00:18:32.760 --> 00:18:32.901
 Right.
 
 00:18:33.541 --> 00:18:35.702
 Well, she is.
 
 00:18:37.135 --> 00:18:39.156
 If you think in terms of as
 
 00:18:39.196 --> 00:18:41.778
 we approach the America to
 
 00:18:41.798 --> 00:18:44.161
 fifty and we think of
 
 00:18:44.520 --> 00:18:45.981
 seventeen seventy six,
 
 00:18:46.201 --> 00:18:48.963
 she's a young lady who we
 
 00:18:48.983 --> 00:18:50.045
 believe was born in
 
 00:18:50.724 --> 00:18:52.746
 seventeen seventy three.
 
 00:18:54.267 --> 00:18:57.349
 She she's enslaved by she's
 
 00:18:57.410 --> 00:18:59.651
 part of Martha Washington's estate.
 
 00:19:02.015 --> 00:19:04.415
 And she's in the household
 
 00:19:04.675 --> 00:19:06.217
 of George and Martha
 
 00:19:06.277 --> 00:19:07.718
 Washington in Mount Vernon
 
 00:19:08.218 --> 00:19:10.058
 when she's sixteen years old.
 
 00:19:10.739 --> 00:19:12.140
 She is Martha.
 
 00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:14.480
 She's Martha's seamstress
 
 00:19:15.161 --> 00:19:16.422
 and personal servant.
 
 00:19:17.321 --> 00:19:19.042
 She brings her to New York
 
 00:19:20.442 --> 00:19:21.743
 and then eventually and
 
 00:19:21.763 --> 00:19:23.085
 then to Philadelphia.
 
 00:19:23.704 --> 00:19:25.144
 And by the time she's twenty
 
 00:19:25.204 --> 00:19:27.326
 three and the Washingtons
 
 00:19:27.365 --> 00:19:30.067
 or George Washington is about to retire,
 
 00:19:30.928 --> 00:19:31.887
 she decides,
 
 00:19:31.968 --> 00:19:36.710
 rather than going back to Virginia,
 
 00:19:36.789 --> 00:19:40.691
 to Mount Vernon, she'd rather escape.
 
 00:19:42.291 --> 00:19:44.412
 And through black
 
 00:19:44.471 --> 00:19:45.553
 abolitionists and white
 
 00:19:45.613 --> 00:19:48.374
 abolitionists in Philadelphia,
 
 00:19:48.733 --> 00:19:51.535
 she is able to carry her
 
 00:19:51.595 --> 00:19:54.454
 clothes and hide them in one house.
 
 00:19:55.076 --> 00:19:55.935
 And eventually,
 
 00:19:56.056 --> 00:19:57.736
 as the Washingtons sit down
 
 00:19:57.776 --> 00:19:58.896
 for their early dinner,
 
 00:19:59.656 --> 00:20:00.877
 One night in May,
 
 00:20:01.317 --> 00:20:06.141
 she leaves and stays hidden
 
 00:20:06.340 --> 00:20:08.442
 for a while and eventually
 
 00:20:08.702 --> 00:20:10.963
 is on a boat that sails
 
 00:20:10.983 --> 00:20:13.605
 from Philadelphia to Portsmouth,
 
 00:20:14.125 --> 00:20:14.726
 New Hampshire,
 
 00:20:14.766 --> 00:20:17.508
 where she will spend the next fifty-two,
 
 00:20:17.548 --> 00:20:19.269
 fifty-four years of her life.
 
 00:20:22.851 --> 00:20:27.554
 Ironically, New Hampshire builds itself as
 
 00:20:28.701 --> 00:20:29.862
 live free or die.
 
 00:20:30.962 --> 00:20:35.186
 She certainly lived free and died there,
 
 00:20:35.928 --> 00:20:36.647
 lived free.
 
 00:20:37.669 --> 00:20:40.951
 She survived two attempts by
 
 00:20:41.051 --> 00:20:43.714
 the Washingtons to recapture her.
 
 00:20:45.814 --> 00:20:50.237
 So in the book for younger readers,
 
 00:20:50.518 --> 00:20:51.178
 Runaway,
 
 00:20:51.838 --> 00:20:54.780
 I focus just on the day in which
 
 00:20:55.181 --> 00:20:58.844
 she escapes.
 
 00:20:58.963 --> 00:20:59.984
 In Long Time Coming,
 
 00:21:00.065 --> 00:21:02.606
 I tell her life from cradle to grave.
 
 00:21:03.493 --> 00:21:04.634
 And it's a harsh life.
 
 00:21:05.173 --> 00:21:06.295
 And it goes back to the
 
 00:21:06.355 --> 00:21:08.154
 question that you asked earlier.
 
 00:21:08.394 --> 00:21:09.234
 And that is,
 
 00:21:09.694 --> 00:21:11.056
 what happened to these guys
 
 00:21:11.715 --> 00:21:13.816
 who fought in the revolution?
 
 00:21:13.855 --> 00:21:14.876
 What happened to them when
 
 00:21:14.916 --> 00:21:15.696
 the war was over?
 
 00:21:15.936 --> 00:21:17.037
 Those who survived.
 
 00:21:18.356 --> 00:21:20.657
 And it goes to the question,
 
 00:21:21.617 --> 00:21:25.919
 if you are to be,
 
 00:21:26.878 --> 00:21:28.159
 even though you're to be a
 
 00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:30.359
 free black with
 
 00:21:31.916 --> 00:21:40.320
 limited assets, unable to read or write,
 
 00:21:41.182 --> 00:21:42.021
 what's your future?
 
 00:21:43.762 --> 00:21:44.923
 And not to mention the
 
 00:21:47.125 --> 00:21:48.445
 social environment in which
 
 00:21:48.465 --> 00:21:49.105
 you're living.
 
 00:21:49.846 --> 00:21:52.988
 And so for Ona in New Hampshire,
 
 00:21:53.728 --> 00:21:54.528
 it was a struggle.
 
 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:57.131
 Um, even she married,
 
 00:21:57.730 --> 00:21:58.791
 she eventually learned to
 
 00:21:58.832 --> 00:22:01.032
 read a bit primarily so
 
 00:22:01.073 --> 00:22:02.354
 that she could read the Bible,
 
 00:22:03.034 --> 00:22:04.134
 but it was a hard life.
 
 00:22:05.174 --> 00:22:05.275
 Uh,
 
 00:22:05.394 --> 00:22:06.796
 two of her daughters died from
 
 00:22:06.836 --> 00:22:07.695
 malnutrition.
 
 00:22:09.777 --> 00:22:11.617
 It was a tough life, but again,
 
 00:22:12.239 --> 00:22:13.419
 we go back to the question
 
 00:22:13.439 --> 00:22:14.960
 you asked earlier.
 
 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:16.421
 Why, why, why?
 
 00:22:17.656 --> 00:22:20.720
 Why, why, why, why do people,
 
 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:22.121
 why did they run away?
 
 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:22.902
 Why did they?
 
 00:22:23.603 --> 00:22:24.804
 And they're, they're seeking,
 
 00:22:24.983 --> 00:22:27.987
 they're seeking that universal freedom.
 
 00:22:28.186 --> 00:22:28.907
 Right, right.
 
 00:22:29.888 --> 00:22:32.030
 And they're willing to pay the price.
 
 00:22:32.171 --> 00:22:32.412
 Yeah.
 
 00:22:33.071 --> 00:22:34.012
 It's an amazing story.
 
 00:22:34.073 --> 00:22:35.795
 I mean, all of these are amazing stories.
 
 00:22:35.875 --> 00:22:36.955
 And the story of the
 
 00:22:37.016 --> 00:22:38.298
 revolution is amazing in
 
 00:22:38.337 --> 00:22:40.500
 many ways for that reason, without even
 
 00:22:41.007 --> 00:22:41.826
 beginning with Phyllis
 
 00:22:41.866 --> 00:22:44.087
 Wheatley about that love of
 
 00:22:44.127 --> 00:22:46.509
 freedom implanted in every human breast.
 
 00:22:46.609 --> 00:22:48.369
 And this is emanating.
 
 00:22:49.770 --> 00:22:52.372
 Jonathan Arlene, our executive director,
 
 00:22:52.392 --> 00:22:53.633
 just reminded me of the
 
 00:22:53.692 --> 00:22:55.733
 series of The Childhood of
 
 00:22:55.773 --> 00:22:56.794
 Famous Americans,
 
 00:22:56.814 --> 00:22:58.355
 a series of kind of
 
 00:22:58.414 --> 00:22:59.736
 childhood biographies aimed
 
 00:22:59.756 --> 00:23:00.536
 at young readers.
 
 00:23:01.436 --> 00:23:02.517
 Really wondering,
 
 00:23:02.636 --> 00:23:03.897
 as we're approaching the
 
 00:23:03.938 --> 00:23:05.458
 two hundred fiftieth, you know,
 
 00:23:05.678 --> 00:23:07.019
 what will come out of this?
 
 00:23:07.078 --> 00:23:09.038
 Can you envision a series like this?
 
 00:23:09.078 --> 00:23:09.219
 I mean,
 
 00:23:09.239 --> 00:23:10.338
 I'm not saying you should now
 
 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:11.759
 embark on this,
 
 00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:13.019
 but is this something that
 
 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:15.421
 you think we could do or is
 
 00:23:15.441 --> 00:23:18.801
 this telling these stories
 
 00:23:19.021 --> 00:23:21.122
 and how you would engage people,
 
 00:23:21.863 --> 00:23:22.903
 writers like you,
 
 00:23:23.022 --> 00:23:24.682
 even if you're coming back
 
 00:23:24.722 --> 00:23:25.983
 to writing after a long
 
 00:23:26.023 --> 00:23:27.344
 hiatus of paying the
 
 00:23:27.384 --> 00:23:28.664
 mortgage and raising a family?
 
 00:23:31.214 --> 00:23:32.296
 reaching young audiences
 
 00:23:32.316 --> 00:23:33.477
 seems like a critical thing.
 
 00:23:33.717 --> 00:23:35.018
 And I really applaud you for
 
 00:23:35.058 --> 00:23:37.039
 doing it and doing it in a
 
 00:23:37.520 --> 00:23:38.942
 really successful way.
 
 00:23:39.342 --> 00:23:40.063
 Do you think this is
 
 00:23:40.103 --> 00:23:41.564
 something that maybe some of the Mass.
 
 00:23:41.584 --> 00:23:42.424
 two-fifty or other
 
 00:23:42.464 --> 00:23:43.586
 two-fiftieth group should
 
 00:23:43.625 --> 00:23:45.147
 look at creating these
 
 00:23:45.188 --> 00:23:47.710
 kinds of stories for younger audiences?
 
 00:23:49.710 --> 00:23:51.250
 Well, it's a good question.
 
 00:23:51.612 --> 00:23:53.613
 And I hesitate because I'm
 
 00:23:53.673 --> 00:23:55.954
 thinking of there are some
 
 00:23:56.035 --> 00:23:57.856
 popular series right now
 
 00:23:57.916 --> 00:23:59.357
 called I Survive.
 
 00:23:59.817 --> 00:24:02.259
 And so I'm almost like that
 
 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:03.961
 Scholastic publishes or
 
 00:24:03.981 --> 00:24:07.084
 there's another series, She Persisted,
 
 00:24:07.124 --> 00:24:08.244
 which is about women.
 
 00:24:08.265 --> 00:24:14.089
 And so as I talk here, I'm thinking, yes,
 
 00:24:14.150 --> 00:24:15.270
 it's a great idea.
 
 00:24:17.172 --> 00:24:18.973
 If a publisher can...
 
 00:24:19.752 --> 00:24:24.354
 plug them into their ongoing, two options,
 
 00:24:24.534 --> 00:24:25.894
 into their ongoing series
 
 00:24:26.075 --> 00:24:28.535
 or a separate series.
 
 00:24:29.075 --> 00:24:31.836
 But we do have successful series going on.
 
 00:24:31.935 --> 00:24:32.915
 And as I said,
 
 00:24:32.976 --> 00:24:39.137
 She Persisted or the books called Who Was,
 
 00:24:40.617 --> 00:24:42.078
 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
 
 00:24:43.159 --> 00:24:45.619
 or indeed the Scholastic series,
 
 00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:46.519
 I Survived.
 
 00:24:47.155 --> 00:24:48.317
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:48.356 --> 00:24:48.997
 Some of them, I mean,
 
 00:24:49.057 --> 00:24:50.577
 I don't want to criticize people.
 
 00:24:50.778 --> 00:24:52.480
 A lot of them just are too
 
 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:54.201
 more preachy than storytelling.
 
 00:24:54.580 --> 00:24:55.381
 Right.
 
 00:24:55.461 --> 00:24:55.882
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:55.961 --> 00:24:56.662
 Yeah, absolutely.
 
 00:24:58.282 --> 00:25:00.625
 And that's a whole trick.
 
 00:25:00.644 --> 00:25:00.984
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:01.826 --> 00:25:05.248
 And a little trade talk here.
 
 00:25:06.528 --> 00:25:07.288
 Sometimes there's a
 
 00:25:07.328 --> 00:25:10.510
 difference between a work
 
 00:25:10.530 --> 00:25:13.874
 for hire and a trade book.
 
 00:25:14.894 --> 00:25:15.013
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:15.094 --> 00:25:15.474
 That is...
 
 00:25:16.796 --> 00:25:17.916
 Those of us who write for
 
 00:25:17.977 --> 00:25:20.377
 royalties as opposed to a flat fee,
 
 00:25:22.058 --> 00:25:24.099
 I'd like to believe we
 
 00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:27.842
 write for art or for the
 
 00:25:27.942 --> 00:25:32.223
 craft as opposed to meeting
 
 00:25:32.263 --> 00:25:33.585
 an artificial deadline.
 
 00:25:34.904 --> 00:25:38.386
 But I know I'm sounding self-serving here.
 
 00:25:38.467 --> 00:25:41.208
 I apologize for that.
 
 00:25:41.228 --> 00:25:41.307
 Well,
 
 00:25:41.328 --> 00:25:43.249
 I always remember what Samuel Johnson
 
 00:25:43.309 --> 00:25:44.269
 said about no one but a
 
 00:25:44.289 --> 00:25:46.151
 blockhead ever wrote except for money.
 
 00:25:49.268 --> 00:25:50.367
 Yeah, for sure.
 
 00:25:51.147 --> 00:25:52.989
 But the main thing that I
 
 00:25:53.028 --> 00:25:56.671
 think really what we want, here's sort of,
 
 00:25:56.770 --> 00:25:58.112
 if you like, my purpose,
 
 00:25:58.132 --> 00:26:00.532
 and especially in thinking
 
 00:26:00.613 --> 00:26:01.873
 of America Two-Fifty.
 
 00:26:03.354 --> 00:26:03.753
 Again,
 
 00:26:04.134 --> 00:26:08.355
 think in terms of the idea that
 
 00:26:08.415 --> 00:26:09.457
 shared knowledge
 
 00:26:10.419 --> 00:26:12.580
 shared appreciation of American history.
 
 00:26:13.141 --> 00:26:15.123
 There's a cohesiveness about
 
 00:26:15.202 --> 00:26:19.826
 it for us as a people.
 
 00:26:21.468 --> 00:26:25.010
 And what we lack in terms of
 
 00:26:25.652 --> 00:26:27.894
 our understanding of American history,
 
 00:26:28.314 --> 00:26:29.095
 we celebrate
 
 00:26:29.703 --> 00:26:30.924
 the American Revolution
 
 00:26:30.964 --> 00:26:35.166
 without giving deep thought
 
 00:26:35.248 --> 00:26:37.449
 to what was it,
 
 00:26:37.888 --> 00:26:40.151
 what did it mean that you
 
 00:26:40.191 --> 00:26:42.551
 can fight for freedom at the same time,
 
 00:26:42.711 --> 00:26:43.853
 enslave someone.
 
 00:26:44.713 --> 00:26:47.535
 And so that, and we've never really,
 
 00:26:47.634 --> 00:26:49.557
 in fact, two hundred fifty years later,
 
 00:26:49.616 --> 00:26:51.657
 we're still dealing in many ways,
 
 00:26:51.738 --> 00:26:52.878
 dealing with that issue.
 
 00:26:53.459 --> 00:26:54.819
 How is it possible?
 
 00:26:56.838 --> 00:26:59.140
 that these two things can
 
 00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:00.920
 exist simultaneously.
 
 00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:06.242
 And it's going back to Jefferson,
 
 00:27:06.363 --> 00:27:08.343
 Thomas Jefferson quote,
 
 00:27:08.482 --> 00:27:10.163
 slavery is like holding a
 
 00:27:10.263 --> 00:27:11.345
 whoop by the ears.
 
 00:27:13.005 --> 00:27:15.665
 Do you hold on or do you let go?
 
 00:27:16.666 --> 00:27:20.468
 And as I said, in many ways,
 
 00:27:20.508 --> 00:27:21.648
 we're still dealing with that.
 
 00:27:22.526 --> 00:27:22.826
 We are.
 
 00:27:22.846 --> 00:27:23.786
 And it's one of the things
 
 00:27:23.806 --> 00:27:24.586
 that makes it so
 
 00:27:24.625 --> 00:27:27.346
 fascinating is that it has
 
 00:27:27.406 --> 00:27:30.087
 that contradiction at the center.
 
 00:27:30.147 --> 00:27:32.188
 And I think getting kids to
 
 00:27:32.228 --> 00:27:33.528
 grapple with this,
 
 00:27:33.647 --> 00:27:35.888
 it can be either horrific
 
 00:27:35.929 --> 00:27:37.848
 for them or it can help
 
 00:27:37.868 --> 00:27:39.569
 them think about history in
 
 00:27:39.589 --> 00:27:40.329
 a broader way.
 
 00:27:40.490 --> 00:27:42.349
 It's really one of the real
 
 00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:43.971
 predicaments we have as historians,
 
 00:27:44.010 --> 00:27:44.951
 as well as a predicament we
 
 00:27:44.971 --> 00:27:45.651
 have as a nation.
 
 00:27:46.574 --> 00:27:48.013
 Yes,
 
 00:27:48.314 --> 00:27:51.255
 and it's become intensified to the
 
 00:27:51.275 --> 00:27:54.695
 degree in which there's a
 
 00:27:55.115 --> 00:27:59.336
 heightened sensitivity of
 
 00:27:59.696 --> 00:28:00.636
 what should be taught,
 
 00:28:00.957 --> 00:28:02.577
 what books should be allowed in,
 
 00:28:02.637 --> 00:28:03.738
 what books should be
 
 00:28:04.678 --> 00:28:06.298
 discouraged or banned.
 
 00:28:07.038 --> 00:28:12.259
 And so that becomes... And that becomes...
 
 00:28:14.048 --> 00:28:17.089
 a great self-censorship on
 
 00:28:17.130 --> 00:28:19.692
 the part of teachers and librarians.
 
 00:28:20.472 --> 00:28:21.973
 Do you have a book like
 
 00:28:22.013 --> 00:28:24.555
 Runaway or Now or Never or
 
 00:28:24.734 --> 00:28:25.836
 A Long Time Coming, which
 
 00:28:27.267 --> 00:28:28.827
 Do you really want to teach
 
 00:28:28.847 --> 00:28:30.909
 that in the schools or will
 
 00:28:30.949 --> 00:28:32.410
 that some parent complain
 
 00:28:32.470 --> 00:28:35.372
 or will some self-appointed
 
 00:28:36.833 --> 00:28:38.394
 person decide that that
 
 00:28:38.433 --> 00:28:39.674
 book is inappropriate?
 
 00:28:40.295 --> 00:28:42.376
 Or as the words being used,
 
 00:28:42.817 --> 00:28:45.097
 it'll make our children uncomfortable.
 
 00:28:46.835 --> 00:28:48.536
 And then on the other side, Ray,
 
 00:28:48.576 --> 00:28:51.557
 we have this taking down of
 
 00:28:51.616 --> 00:28:53.857
 names and statues and so on.
 
 00:28:54.077 --> 00:28:56.259
 I'm not talking about the Confederates,
 
 00:28:56.298 --> 00:28:57.479
 but I'm talking about Washington,
 
 00:28:57.538 --> 00:29:00.319
 Jefferson, and how we grapple with that.
 
 00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:02.300
 I mean, these guys had very deep flaws.
 
 00:29:02.621 --> 00:29:04.201
 And, you know,
 
 00:29:04.241 --> 00:29:06.522
 George and Martha in Runaway
 
 00:29:06.563 --> 00:29:08.324
 are probably quite
 
 00:29:08.344 --> 00:29:09.943
 different from the George
 
 00:29:09.963 --> 00:29:12.025
 and Martha of the Pantheon.
 
 00:29:12.607 --> 00:29:15.528
 But I'm wondering how we come back to this,
 
 00:29:15.648 --> 00:29:17.670
 the sense of common
 
 00:29:17.710 --> 00:29:20.851
 identity you were talking about earlier.
 
 00:29:20.971 --> 00:29:24.012
 Well, I think no one,
 
 00:29:24.853 --> 00:29:29.815
 we have to start with things change.
 
 00:29:31.976 --> 00:29:33.476
 There was a day in which
 
 00:29:34.457 --> 00:29:35.576
 so-called witches were
 
 00:29:35.616 --> 00:29:36.576
 burned at the stake.
 
 00:29:39.833 --> 00:29:41.454
 So the question is,
 
 00:29:41.494 --> 00:29:43.537
 how do we celebrate human progress?
 
 00:29:45.078 --> 00:29:46.140
 How do we celebrate,
 
 00:29:47.080 --> 00:29:48.102
 how do we acknowledge
 
 00:29:48.201 --> 00:29:53.208
 social progress without saying, oh,
 
 00:29:53.327 --> 00:29:55.029
 we can't teach George Washington
 
 00:29:56.970 --> 00:29:58.349
 We can't appreciate his
 
 00:29:58.451 --> 00:30:00.531
 genius as a military leader.
 
 00:30:01.211 --> 00:30:02.752
 We can't appreciate his
 
 00:30:02.893 --> 00:30:04.374
 struggling with the whole
 
 00:30:04.534 --> 00:30:06.253
 issue of when he arrives in
 
 00:30:06.294 --> 00:30:10.757
 Cambridge and he sees black
 
 00:30:10.797 --> 00:30:13.397
 soldiers and he's thinking
 
 00:30:13.417 --> 00:30:14.679
 of his slaves back at Mount
 
 00:30:14.699 --> 00:30:16.159
 Vernon and he doesn't want
 
 00:30:16.180 --> 00:30:16.980
 them in the army,
 
 00:30:17.380 --> 00:30:19.000
 yet he has a responsibility
 
 00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:21.842
 to win the war and eventually changes.
 
 00:30:21.862 --> 00:30:22.782
 And
 
 00:30:25.248 --> 00:30:28.548
 I think we have to help
 
 00:30:28.888 --> 00:30:30.509
 young readers understand
 
 00:30:31.890 --> 00:30:37.132
 the dilemma that so many
 
 00:30:37.152 --> 00:30:38.472
 people found themselves in
 
 00:30:39.472 --> 00:30:40.532
 and continue to find
 
 00:30:40.553 --> 00:30:44.714
 themselves in as we move into the next,
 
 00:30:45.474 --> 00:30:46.154
 God willing,
 
 00:30:46.214 --> 00:30:49.336
 the next two hundred and fifty years.
 
 00:30:49.375 --> 00:30:51.416
 We're talking with Ray Anthony Shepherd,
 
 00:30:51.436 --> 00:30:52.837
 award-winning biographer
 
 00:30:52.857 --> 00:30:53.837
 for young readers.
 
 00:30:54.473 --> 00:30:56.634
 He has just completed the manuscript,
 
 00:30:56.674 --> 00:30:58.155
 The Forgotten Patriots of
 
 00:30:58.195 --> 00:31:00.176
 Color at Lexington and Concord,
 
 00:31:00.717 --> 00:31:02.478
 which tells the story, you know,
 
 00:31:02.498 --> 00:31:06.019
 just one day in Lexington and Concord,
 
 00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:07.421
 what happens in the course
 
 00:31:07.661 --> 00:31:09.961
 of that battle and really
 
 00:31:10.061 --> 00:31:12.042
 focusing on the
 
 00:31:12.242 --> 00:31:13.644
 African-Americans who were
 
 00:31:13.703 --> 00:31:15.684
 fighting at Lexington and Concord.
 
 00:31:17.925 --> 00:31:21.387
 And you've mentioned a couple, Abel Benson,
 
 00:31:21.448 --> 00:31:23.509
 Princess de Brooke, Peter Salem.
 
 00:31:23.968 --> 00:31:25.750
 who play really interesting
 
 00:31:25.809 --> 00:31:28.172
 roles that day and then go on to serve.
 
 00:31:28.511 --> 00:31:30.453
 I'm wondering how you
 
 00:31:31.035 --> 00:31:32.757
 selected these particular
 
 00:31:32.797 --> 00:31:35.880
 guys and Violet Thayer to focus on.
 
 00:31:35.980 --> 00:31:39.103
 It seems they're on the one hand obvious,
 
 00:31:39.143 --> 00:31:39.923
 but on the other hand,
 
 00:31:40.084 --> 00:31:41.325
 each of them has a certain
 
 00:31:41.404 --> 00:31:43.727
 part of the story that he
 
 00:31:43.747 --> 00:31:44.508
 or she is sharing.
 
 00:31:46.553 --> 00:31:46.772
 Well,
 
 00:31:47.133 --> 00:31:51.396
 what I wanted to do is pick the major
 
 00:31:51.416 --> 00:31:53.117
 battles of the day.
 
 00:31:53.698 --> 00:31:56.119
 So then I have to find an
 
 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:58.182
 individual who was there.
 
 00:31:58.922 --> 00:32:01.044
 And so that drove the selection.
 
 00:32:01.584 --> 00:32:03.885
 So obviously Princess Brooke
 
 00:32:03.925 --> 00:32:06.347
 is an easy one because he's there,
 
 00:32:06.387 --> 00:32:09.329
 he's part of the Lexington militia.
 
 00:32:10.651 --> 00:32:12.251
 But when we moved to Concord,
 
 00:32:14.288 --> 00:32:15.509
 then it becomes harder
 
 00:32:15.709 --> 00:32:18.950
 because there are no the
 
 00:32:19.069 --> 00:32:21.230
 rosters for both the
 
 00:32:22.250 --> 00:32:24.951
 conquered Minutemen and
 
 00:32:25.071 --> 00:32:26.873
 militia and the same for Lincoln.
 
 00:32:28.953 --> 00:32:30.615
 There are no African,
 
 00:32:30.674 --> 00:32:33.035
 no blacks on those rosters.
 
 00:32:33.816 --> 00:32:36.477
 So then it becomes harder to
 
 00:32:37.116 --> 00:32:39.557
 start digging and you go to
 
 00:32:39.637 --> 00:32:41.878
 the fact that there were
 
 00:32:43.652 --> 00:32:45.173
 from Bedford and from Concord,
 
 00:32:45.792 --> 00:32:47.193
 some of the officers
 
 00:32:47.433 --> 00:32:50.855
 brought their black servants with them.
 
 00:32:51.715 --> 00:32:55.278
 So that's how you begin to tell the story.
 
 00:32:55.637 --> 00:32:57.358
 But mainly what I'm set out
 
 00:32:57.378 --> 00:33:00.680
 to do is the British march,
 
 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:02.020
 they reach Lexington.
 
 00:33:02.580 --> 00:33:05.061
 They're very confident after
 
 00:33:05.122 --> 00:33:06.563
 the battle in Lexington,
 
 00:33:06.623 --> 00:33:07.723
 if you call it a battle,
 
 00:33:07.763 --> 00:33:08.443
 after the shooting.
 
 00:33:09.203 --> 00:33:10.285
 They're confident as they
 
 00:33:10.345 --> 00:33:12.286
 march towards Concord.
 
 00:33:13.525 --> 00:33:15.207
 and then they're running for
 
 00:33:15.247 --> 00:33:18.009
 their lives back to Boston.
 
 00:33:18.348 --> 00:33:19.809
 And so I want to tell that,
 
 00:33:19.849 --> 00:33:22.132
 so I pick individuals that
 
 00:33:22.751 --> 00:33:26.015
 help me tell that story in the sequence.
 
 00:33:26.494 --> 00:33:28.096
 Right, right.
 
 00:33:28.136 --> 00:33:29.557
 Were there Blacks in the British Army?
 
 00:33:30.278 --> 00:33:31.358
 Yes, there were more.
 
 00:33:32.339 --> 00:33:34.559
 In fact, there are more loyalists,
 
 00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:37.461
 more blacks fought for the
 
 00:33:37.520 --> 00:33:41.481
 British than for the
 
 00:33:41.642 --> 00:33:44.242
 provisional army or for the patriots.
 
 00:33:44.883 --> 00:33:46.343
 It's estimated in the eight
 
 00:33:46.383 --> 00:33:48.223
 years that some more than
 
 00:33:48.284 --> 00:33:51.364
 six thousand blacks fought
 
 00:33:51.544 --> 00:33:54.125
 in the Continental Army.
 
 00:33:54.744 --> 00:33:55.944
 And that's one fifth of the
 
 00:33:56.005 --> 00:33:56.865
 Continental Army.
 
 00:33:57.066 --> 00:33:57.905
 Again, something...
 
 00:33:59.212 --> 00:34:00.933
 from textbooks or from our
 
 00:34:00.953 --> 00:34:02.234
 shared knowledge, if you like.
 
 00:34:02.895 --> 00:34:04.577
 But if you think in terms of
 
 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.581
 Dunmar's Ethiopian regiment
 
 00:34:10.262 --> 00:34:15.427
 or the number of more blacks felt,
 
 00:34:15.467 --> 00:34:16.588
 particularly in the South,
 
 00:34:16.748 --> 00:34:19.751
 not in the North and not in New England,
 
 00:34:20.873 --> 00:34:22.494
 but they had a better
 
 00:34:22.554 --> 00:34:24.476
 chance with the British
 
 00:34:25.014 --> 00:34:26.494
 than remaining with their
 
 00:34:26.655 --> 00:34:28.815
 owners in South Carolina, Georgia,
 
 00:34:29.016 --> 00:34:30.896
 North Carolina, et cetera.
 
 00:34:30.976 --> 00:34:31.418
 Right.
 
 00:34:31.538 --> 00:34:34.539
 And it's one of those things that, again,
 
 00:34:34.780 --> 00:34:36.500
 we should know that the
 
 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:37.661
 percentage of
 
 00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:39.121
 African-Americans as part of
 
 00:34:39.141 --> 00:34:40.563
 the population was higher
 
 00:34:40.862 --> 00:34:42.103
 then than it is today.
 
 00:34:42.704 --> 00:34:44.025
 This black presence at the
 
 00:34:44.105 --> 00:34:47.126
 time is really worth remembering.
 
 00:34:48.007 --> 00:34:48.246
 Yes.
 
 00:34:48.766 --> 00:34:49.168
 In fact,
 
 00:34:49.248 --> 00:34:51.148
 I think whites were a minority in
 
 00:34:51.208 --> 00:34:52.028
 South Carolina.
 
 00:34:52.289 --> 00:34:53.429
 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
 00:34:53.947 --> 00:34:55.248
 And even if you go into the
 
 00:34:55.268 --> 00:34:57.128
 Hartwell Tavern, there is Violet Thayer.
 
 00:34:57.148 --> 00:34:59.110
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:35:02.150 --> 00:35:03.490
 I'm sorry to keep asking you
 
 00:35:03.530 --> 00:35:05.331
 about the writing craft,
 
 00:35:05.351 --> 00:35:06.371
 and I'm wondering if in the
 
 00:35:06.411 --> 00:35:07.972
 time you were working as an
 
 00:35:08.072 --> 00:35:08.913
 editor or teacher,
 
 00:35:08.972 --> 00:35:10.552
 if you continue to write verse,
 
 00:35:10.592 --> 00:35:11.833
 if poetry is something
 
 00:35:11.853 --> 00:35:13.353
 that's been part of your
 
 00:35:13.393 --> 00:35:14.994
 life since your early days
 
 00:35:15.034 --> 00:35:15.954
 wanting to be a writer.
 
 00:35:20.344 --> 00:35:23.987
 Once I started seriously
 
 00:35:24.347 --> 00:35:26.409
 focusing on career building,
 
 00:35:27.389 --> 00:35:28.650
 there was very little time
 
 00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:30.451
 for writing other than
 
 00:35:31.092 --> 00:35:32.632
 writing and trying to
 
 00:35:32.693 --> 00:35:35.193
 improve the textbooks that
 
 00:35:35.233 --> 00:35:37.235
 we were producing.
 
 00:35:40.277 --> 00:35:41.657
 I was editor-in-chief of a
 
 00:35:42.038 --> 00:35:43.418
 very large company, so...
 
 00:35:46.072 --> 00:35:47.954
 There wasn't much time other
 
 00:35:48.994 --> 00:35:52.695
 than trying to produce books.
 
 00:35:53.275 --> 00:35:53.436
 Now,
 
 00:35:53.536 --> 00:35:59.159
 I did try to do more in terms of what
 
 00:35:59.219 --> 00:36:01.579
 then was called multicultural.
 
 00:36:06.023 --> 00:36:07.905
 had the challenges of going
 
 00:36:07.945 --> 00:36:11.067
 to Texas and defending textbooks,
 
 00:36:11.827 --> 00:36:13.969
 going to Florida and defending textbooks.
 
 00:36:14.989 --> 00:36:17.451
 But it was still a textbook, a school book,
 
 00:36:17.771 --> 00:36:21.432
 as opposed to a trade book.
 
 00:36:21.512 --> 00:36:22.592
 We've been talking with Ray
 
 00:36:22.653 --> 00:36:23.594
 Anthony Shepard,
 
 00:36:23.773 --> 00:36:25.594
 author of several really
 
 00:36:25.655 --> 00:36:27.536
 extraordinary books for young readers,
 
 00:36:27.615 --> 00:36:29.697
 Now or Never, about the Massachusetts
 
 00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:33.722
 Runaway, The Daring Escape of Ona Judge,
 
 00:36:33.802 --> 00:36:35.222
 and A Long Time Coming,
 
 00:36:35.262 --> 00:36:36.844
 A Lyrical Biography of Race
 
 00:36:36.864 --> 00:36:38.224
 in America from Ona Judge
 
 00:36:38.244 --> 00:36:39.184
 to Barack Obama.
 
 00:36:39.844 --> 00:36:41.146
 And your next book coming
 
 00:36:41.266 --> 00:36:43.487
 out in twenty twenty six,
 
 00:36:43.547 --> 00:36:44.847
 The Forgotten on Patriots
 
 00:36:44.907 --> 00:36:46.588
 of Color at Lexington and Concord.
 
 00:36:47.028 --> 00:36:47.728
 Is there anything else we
 
 00:36:47.768 --> 00:36:48.548
 should talk about, Ray,
 
 00:36:48.568 --> 00:36:50.889
 before we let you go?
 
 00:36:50.949 --> 00:36:57.052
 No, again, I think it's for me,
 
 00:36:57.132 --> 00:36:58.514
 it's about how do you
 
 00:36:58.534 --> 00:37:00.474
 produce a story that
 
 00:37:01.226 --> 00:37:04.567
 the reader, regardless of ethnic, racial,
 
 00:37:04.686 --> 00:37:06.007
 gender background,
 
 00:37:06.527 --> 00:37:09.228
 can identify with the protagonist.
 
 00:37:11.969 --> 00:37:13.731
 And there are so many
 
 00:37:14.391 --> 00:37:16.612
 wonderful stories in American history.
 
 00:37:18.432 --> 00:37:20.373
 And I'm just blessed to be
 
 00:37:20.452 --> 00:37:22.514
 able to tell a few of them.
 
 00:37:22.534 --> 00:37:23.715
 Great.
 
 00:37:23.954 --> 00:37:25.295
 Well, thank you for doing it.
 
 00:37:25.315 --> 00:37:27.275
 It's a tremendous work you're doing.
 
 00:37:27.295 --> 00:37:28.655
 And I really applaud you for it.
 
 00:37:28.695 --> 00:37:30.016
 And thank you for joining us today.
 
 00:37:30.807 --> 00:37:31.889
 It was my pleasure, Bob,
 
 00:37:31.949 --> 00:37:34.050
 and thank you for the opportunity.
 
 00:37:34.070 --> 00:37:35.590
 Right.
 
 00:37:35.670 --> 00:37:37.351
 So Ray Anthony Shepard,
 
 00:37:37.431 --> 00:37:38.652
 author of The Forgotten
 
 00:37:38.733 --> 00:37:39.693
 Patriots of Color at
 
 00:37:39.773 --> 00:37:40.873
 Lexington and Concord,
 
 00:37:40.914 --> 00:37:42.315
 as well as other books.
 
 00:37:42.375 --> 00:37:43.255
 And so thank you.
 
 00:37:43.315 --> 00:37:44.596
 I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:37:44.635 --> 00:37:45.356
 our producer,
 
 00:37:45.396 --> 00:37:47.318
 who is the man behind the curtain here,
 
 00:37:47.838 --> 00:37:50.340
 and our listeners all around the world.
 
 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:51.420
 And every week we thank
 
 00:37:51.460 --> 00:37:52.800
 folks in different places.
 
 00:37:52.860 --> 00:37:53.862
 And if you're interested,
 
 00:37:54.222 --> 00:37:54.922
 if you're in one of these
 
 00:37:54.942 --> 00:37:56.103
 places and want some of our
 
 00:37:56.143 --> 00:37:57.623
 Revolution Two fifty gear,
 
 00:37:57.664 --> 00:37:59.184
 send Jonathan Lane an email.
 
 00:37:59.661 --> 00:38:01.063
 jlane at revolution two
 
 00:38:01.123 --> 00:38:02.764
 fifty dot org or if you
 
 00:38:02.784 --> 00:38:03.824
 have an idea for something
 
 00:38:03.844 --> 00:38:04.605
 you'd like to hear about on
 
 00:38:04.625 --> 00:38:06.385
 the podcast and this week I
 
 00:38:06.425 --> 00:38:07.646
 want to thank our listeners
 
 00:38:07.686 --> 00:38:10.489
 in jerusalem and in amman
 
 00:38:10.969 --> 00:38:13.791
 and in edinburgh and in
 
 00:38:13.871 --> 00:38:15.411
 portland maine and portland
 
 00:38:15.472 --> 00:38:17.092
 oregon and harrison new
 
 00:38:17.132 --> 00:38:19.094
 jersey spirit lake idaho
 
 00:38:19.153 --> 00:38:20.434
 and all places between and
 
 00:38:20.514 --> 00:38:21.655
 beyond thanks for joining
 
 00:38:21.695 --> 00:38:23.317
 us and now we will be piped
 
 00:38:23.416 --> 00:38:24.617
 out on the road to boston