Revolution 250 Podcast
Revolution 250 Podcast
Revolutionary War Shipwrecks of New Jersey with Capt. Steve Nagiewicz
The Mullica River in southern New Jersey was a haven for American privateers, who in the fall of 1778 had eighteen captured British vessels at anchor, their cargoes delivered to Washington's army. Sir Henry Clinton sent a raiding party from New York, which burned the ships and the town of Chestnut Neck. The town rebuilt quickly, but the wrecks lay undisturbed on the river bottom until archaeologists discovered them. We talk with Captain Steve Nagiewicz, mariner, faculty member at Stockton University, diver, and underwater archaeologist about the search for these vessels (he has enlisted his Stockton University students in the search) and what we can learn about the maritime Revolution from the wrecks beneath the surface. Captain Nagiewicz is also the author of the Hidden History of Maritime New Jersey, which tells the story of other New Jersey shipwrecks.
WEBVTT
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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
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I'm Bob Allison.
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I chair the Rev 250 advisory group.
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We are a consortium of about
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75 or so organizations in
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Massachusetts planning
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commemorations of the
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beginnings of the American Revolution.
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And our guest today is Steve Nagowitz.
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And Steve Nagowitz, man of many talents.
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He, for 40 years, has been,
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he's actually a shipmaster,
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a licensed shipmaster.
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And for 40 years, he's been
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scuba diving and done all
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kinds of work as an
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underwater archaeologist explorer.
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He teaches at Stockton State,
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Stockton University in New Jersey.
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He's also his alma mater.
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So Steve, thanks for joining us.
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My pleasure.
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Thanks for having me.
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And Steve, as you just saw on the slide,
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is the author of The Hidden
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History of Maritime New Jersey,
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which looks at a number of
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different underwater artifacts,
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underwater shipwrecks on
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the coast of New Jersey,
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and also has written an
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essay that will be in this
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book called Archaeology of
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the American Revolution
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coming up next year from
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the University of Florida Press.
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And that's what we're going
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to talk about today.
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Actually,
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this really exciting series of
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events that happened
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In southern New Jersey, near Egg Harbor,
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the Battle of Chestnut
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Point and other things.
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So, Steve,
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can you tell us first how you
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got interest,
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how you found out about the
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Battle of Chestnut Point?
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And then we can talk about what happened.
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I don't even remember how many years ago,
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but a friend of mine who was a lawyer,
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Peter Hess,
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he was diving with some friends,
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Jack Fulmer and a few other
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people from way back in my past,
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diving in a river in the Mullica.
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It was, they said, an old shipwreck,
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and they found an old
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cannon and anchor on it.
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And that was my first
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exposure to not only the
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Revolutionary War kind of shipwrecks,
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but diving in a mucky river in 10,
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15 feet of water when I had
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to measure the length of my
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knuckles on my hand to
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measure what the wreck was
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size-wise because the
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visibility was so poor.
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Wow.
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But it was exciting for me
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as a relatively new and
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young diver to dive into history.
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And it was one of the
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reasons I got into scuba
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diving was when I dove my first shipwreck,
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I was hooked on the history.
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I wanted to know how it got there.
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What happened?
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Did people die?
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The idea of treasure never
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entered into my mind until
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I started doing research
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and finding that some of
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them probably had things on
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board that were valuable.
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But it was the history of
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all the wrecks that I was
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fascinated with and would
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ultimately lead to the book.
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With Stockton,
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I had the capability with
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their technology and boats
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to do the archaeology on
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the Battle of Chestnut Neck,
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which was a pivotal battle
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of private captains, not unlike me,
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who volunteered their time
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and their boat to hijack
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ships to supply Washington's army.
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If it
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Washington relied on the
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sale of private goods,
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captured ships to finance
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his campaign against the British.
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Without this dream of privateers,
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there probably wouldn't
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have been a revolution
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because a lot of the
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farmers quit their farms to
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become soldiers to battle the British.
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But they still wanted to be paid,
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and money had to come from somewhere.
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Right, right.
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And these privateers
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operating in the area
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around Egg Harbor were
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actually very successful.
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They seemed to be very good
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at it and creating a great
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supply line for the Continental Army.
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And the British knew that too.
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It's citizens in New York
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city were complaining that
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they weren't getting the
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goods that they ordered
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because the ships would be
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hijacked on their way up
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from Philadelphia and point South.
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And it got to not unlike
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today's economy where, you know,
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COVID and a few other
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things slowed the stream of
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shipping and people were complaining.
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We weren't getting what we
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wanted or what we ordered.
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So again,
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General Clinton in New York,
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who had succeeded General Howe,
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sent a fleet of British
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ships and two or three
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hundred British Marines and
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Loyalists to destroy this
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privateer base at Chestnut Neck,
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which is just inland of Little Egg Inlet,
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Little Egg Bay.
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It's a fairly unsignificant
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river in New Jersey, but
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historically for the Revolutionary War,
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it was the conduit for the
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privateers to ship those
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captured supplies up the
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river across the state to
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Washington's army,
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either in the Philadelphia
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area or Morristown.
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It's amazing.
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Do we know anything, Steve,
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about these guys?
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I mean, who the captains were?
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We know who some of the
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captains were in some of the ships.
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One of the more prominent
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ones was Captain Richard Summers.
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Summers Point,
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New Jersey is named for him.
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He ultimately died overseas
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in other battles.
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the sons and daughters of
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the American Revolution,
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as your listeners all know,
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trace their ancestry back
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to those time periods.
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And a lot of them have told
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me stories about the local captains,
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and they've showed me some
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of the documentation passed
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down through families.
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So you can see the day-to-day life,
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even to the point of a man who died or
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His wife died and remarried
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and it was correspondence,
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personal correspondence
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jockeying for position as
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to where the wives would be
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buried next to their husbands.
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The personal information
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that all families have,
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but it was unique to the
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fact that this was taking
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place as we battled the British in 1777,
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1778.
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So General Clinton knows
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about this nest of
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privateers in Chestnut Neck,
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so he does send this force.
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Did the folks in Chestnut
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Neck have any inkling that
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the British were on their way to attack?
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And what would the British have found?
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How many ships would have been there?
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I mean, how many had they taken?
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Documents say they sent 10 ships,
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including their newest, the HMS Zebra,
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which was a fully outfitted
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warship with cannon and troops,
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and a bunch of smaller
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sailing ships and barges
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that carried the complement
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of soldiers they needed to
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take over the fort.
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They were there to stop these privateers,
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capture the supplies.
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And in the meantime,
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as they went through the, imagine,
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take a step back and
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If any of you have ever sailed,
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you know that a sailing
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ship just doesn't move left
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or right easily and you have to tack.
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Now imagine you're in a
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river that's maybe only a
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couple of hundred feet across,
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difficult to navigate.
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So British prize in New York
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for General Washington had
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told them they were coming.
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The people in Chestnut Neck
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absolutely knew the British
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were coming for a week.
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They took everything of value,
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shipped it up the Mullica
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to Batstow and points
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inland so the British couldn't get it.
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So essentially, when the British came,
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they destroyed their own
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ships in the harbor and
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they burned the town.
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But the buildings were made out of wood.
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Within a month,
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they were back in business.
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Never again as powerful,
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but it was one of the
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biggest supply chains at
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that time during the Revolutionary War.
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And the 10 ships that the
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British burned actually
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were ships the Americans had captured,
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that these privateers had captured.
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Is that right?
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Sure.
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They were British ships.
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They were French ships.
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There were some Spanish.
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One of my graduate students
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did a lot of work through
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the New York Public Library
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tracking down all the
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newspapers of the time,
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which would always list the
00:08:19.838 --> 00:08:21.399
comings and goings of ships
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because that's how people
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got their goods.
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Right.
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We narrowed 100 ships down
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that would have gone
00:08:28.302 --> 00:08:29.783
through Chestnut Neck in
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October of 1778 to maybe 30 or 40.
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And out of those 30 or 40,
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there are 10 shipwrecks,
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of which we've found four so far.
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The rest are probably buried somewhere.
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as the river and tidal
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currents move that mud back and forth.
00:08:48.605 --> 00:08:50.706
But the names will elude us
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because the shipwrecks that
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are there are basically the
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last two or three feet of a
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wooden ship that's been
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burned and covered over by
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250 years of river.
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And then other things,
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you might have been on them, anchors,
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cannon.
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Has any of that been found?
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There are some cannon that were recovered.
00:09:13.605 --> 00:09:15.586
They're in various locations now.
00:09:16.245 --> 00:09:17.746
We found an anchor a few
00:09:17.807 --> 00:09:19.508
years ago in a spot where
00:09:19.927 --> 00:09:21.227
one of the wrecks, the bead wreck,
00:09:21.388 --> 00:09:22.288
would have been anchored.
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Hard to say that it's an
00:09:25.529 --> 00:09:26.889
anchor from that area,
00:09:27.570 --> 00:09:29.451
but the anchor was from the
00:09:29.490 --> 00:09:31.792
location where the bead wreck now sits.
00:09:32.491 --> 00:09:34.432
And it's named the bead wreck because
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When we were diving it,
00:09:36.554 --> 00:09:38.076
we would find little glass
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beads that were used for
00:09:40.178 --> 00:09:41.701
jewelry or trading with the
00:09:41.760 --> 00:09:44.023
local Lenape Indians as a
00:09:44.202 --> 00:09:44.964
bartering system.
00:09:45.745 --> 00:09:46.306
That's amazing.
00:09:46.645 --> 00:09:47.547
So the ships, I mean,
00:09:47.687 --> 00:09:48.969
you have names for them,
00:09:48.989 --> 00:09:49.730
but those have all been
00:09:49.750 --> 00:09:51.871
given by you and others who
00:09:51.932 --> 00:09:53.374
have been discovering them
00:09:53.394 --> 00:09:54.095
or uncovering them.
00:09:54.998 --> 00:09:57.799
For context, usually by location,
00:09:57.879 --> 00:09:59.181
the bead wreck got named
00:09:59.321 --> 00:10:01.562
because we found beads on it.
00:10:01.761 --> 00:10:03.663
So that kind of made some sense.
00:10:05.203 --> 00:10:05.904
And those beads,
00:10:06.404 --> 00:10:07.426
most of those beads are
00:10:07.466 --> 00:10:08.725
sitting in a jar at the New
00:10:08.745 --> 00:10:10.126
Jersey Museum in Trenton.
00:10:10.807 --> 00:10:13.308
The fall wreck was named for Bill Fall,
00:10:13.349 --> 00:10:14.950
who was a NOAA fishery
00:10:15.009 --> 00:10:16.150
scientist who taught science.
00:10:16.871 --> 00:10:17.991
marine archaeology at
00:10:18.052 --> 00:10:19.513
Stockton before I got there.
00:10:20.413 --> 00:10:21.594
And it only seemed fitting.
00:10:21.693 --> 00:10:23.014
He was the first to find it
00:10:23.214 --> 00:10:25.375
by dragging a sonar through the river.
00:10:25.995 --> 00:10:27.215
So we named it after him.
00:10:27.274 --> 00:10:28.735
He ultimately died on an
00:10:28.836 --> 00:10:30.336
expedition up the Amazon.
00:10:31.216 --> 00:10:32.876
So fitting name for him.
00:10:33.956 --> 00:10:35.837
The Kramer wreck is located
00:10:36.738 --> 00:10:38.178
right in the town of
00:10:38.278 --> 00:10:41.100
Chestnut Neck at the Kramer Marina,
00:10:41.460 --> 00:10:43.039
which traces its history
00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:45.972
all the way back to 1778.
00:10:45.972 --> 00:10:47.052
So that was simply,
00:10:48.033 --> 00:10:50.014
it's right at that marina.
00:10:51.115 --> 00:10:52.455
And the last wreck we found
00:10:52.475 --> 00:10:55.355
a year or so ago is called the Nagswreck.
00:10:55.716 --> 00:10:57.096
And that was just simply
00:10:57.797 --> 00:10:59.758
probably my vanity saying I found it.
00:11:00.577 --> 00:11:00.998
Okay.
00:11:03.678 --> 00:11:04.739
And you said in one of your
00:11:04.778 --> 00:11:06.480
essays about finding one at
00:11:06.500 --> 00:11:07.919
a bend in the river and you
00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:09.120
thought as a sailor,
00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:10.120
this was a place where I
00:11:10.160 --> 00:11:11.421
would moor a sailboat and
00:11:11.541 --> 00:11:13.081
thinking it makes sense.
00:11:13.913 --> 00:11:15.715
And in my classes,
00:11:15.835 --> 00:11:18.696
I challenged my students,
00:11:19.255 --> 00:11:20.677
for what you know about ships,
00:11:20.756 --> 00:11:21.476
here's the river,
00:11:21.976 --> 00:11:24.217
where would you anchor 10 ships?
00:11:25.118 --> 00:11:26.099
And they put all that
00:11:26.139 --> 00:11:27.099
information together.
00:11:27.139 --> 00:11:28.759
And then we hooked the sonar
00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:29.980
up on one of Stockton's
00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:31.160
boats and started to go
00:11:31.181 --> 00:11:33.181
through the river to look in those places,
00:11:34.062 --> 00:11:35.761
knowing that over 240 years,
00:11:38.183 --> 00:11:42.288
The river will change the banks by erosion,
00:11:42.568 --> 00:11:44.591
tidal forces and the river moving down.
00:11:45.532 --> 00:11:46.452
Some were uncovered,
00:11:46.533 --> 00:11:47.974
some are probably still buried.
00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:52.623
They built a new bridge over the river,
00:11:53.144 --> 00:11:54.485
the Garden State Parkway.
00:11:54.705 --> 00:11:56.306
And I believe a lot of that
00:11:56.405 --> 00:11:58.488
dredging probably damaged
00:11:58.607 --> 00:12:00.548
an area where we will never
00:12:00.609 --> 00:12:01.309
find shipwrecks.
00:12:01.549 --> 00:12:02.289
Right, right.
00:12:02.850 --> 00:12:05.133
So can we talk, I mean,
00:12:05.173 --> 00:12:06.874
it's a very winding river
00:12:06.953 --> 00:12:08.355
when we looked at that map.
00:12:08.495 --> 00:12:09.576
And so you said it was a
00:12:09.635 --> 00:12:11.397
catching anchor that you found,
00:12:11.476 --> 00:12:12.337
which would have been used
00:12:12.357 --> 00:12:13.918
to move the ships around
00:12:14.019 --> 00:12:14.639
because you really
00:12:15.615 --> 00:12:17.394
You have to rely on wind and tide,
00:12:17.495 --> 00:12:18.655
and in a river like that,
00:12:18.676 --> 00:12:20.135
that's going to be very complicated.
00:12:21.615 --> 00:12:22.616
Before we get into the
00:12:22.657 --> 00:12:24.856
techniques of navigating a winding river,
00:12:24.897 --> 00:12:25.057
though,
00:12:25.076 --> 00:12:27.097
can we talk a little bit about the
00:12:27.138 --> 00:12:28.918
sonar and how you actually
00:12:28.977 --> 00:12:30.077
find these things and what
00:12:30.138 --> 00:12:32.359
we see if we're using sonar
00:12:32.418 --> 00:12:33.778
to find a wreck?
00:12:34.158 --> 00:12:36.019
I mean, you know this better than I do.
00:12:38.104 --> 00:12:41.145
I have the original sonar
00:12:41.206 --> 00:12:43.967
picture from 2008,
00:12:43.967 --> 00:12:47.570
and it's a Klein 3900 sonar.
00:12:47.629 --> 00:12:49.150
Back then, before digital,
00:12:49.750 --> 00:12:51.793
it was thermally printed on paper.
00:12:51.852 --> 00:12:53.094
So what you're looking at on
00:12:53.214 --> 00:12:54.894
the left side of the image
00:12:54.914 --> 00:12:56.535
is the far bank of the marsh.
00:12:57.489 --> 00:12:59.089
And on the right side of the image,
00:12:59.129 --> 00:13:00.990
that little bend is a
00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:02.350
section of the marsh and
00:13:02.610 --> 00:13:04.429
the boat is driving closer to it.
00:13:05.029 --> 00:13:06.390
And if you see almost in the
00:13:06.471 --> 00:13:08.691
exact right center of the image,
00:13:08.730 --> 00:13:11.672
a small oval shape, that's a shipwreck.
00:13:12.331 --> 00:13:13.672
Or at least at the time,
00:13:13.951 --> 00:13:15.471
it was presumed to be at
00:13:15.511 --> 00:13:17.113
least the target of interest.
00:13:17.732 --> 00:13:19.173
They went back and narrowed
00:13:19.572 --> 00:13:21.072
the range of the sonar to
00:13:21.113 --> 00:13:22.313
get a better image of it.
00:13:22.333 --> 00:13:23.573
It turned out that it really
00:13:23.634 --> 00:13:24.634
was a shipwreck.
00:13:25.293 --> 00:13:26.995
And sonar operates under the
00:13:27.035 --> 00:13:29.977
principle that a tiny sound
00:13:30.057 --> 00:13:31.099
pulse comes out of the
00:13:31.139 --> 00:13:32.379
bottom of a transducer
00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:33.159
underneath the boat,
00:13:33.780 --> 00:13:34.782
travels to the bottom,
00:13:35.182 --> 00:13:36.322
reflects off the bottom,
00:13:36.342 --> 00:13:37.344
and comes back up.
00:13:37.984 --> 00:13:38.565
Nowadays,
00:13:38.585 --> 00:13:40.446
a computer system interprets the
00:13:40.466 --> 00:13:42.086
speed and the intensity of
00:13:42.126 --> 00:13:44.629
the sonar to literally make an image,
00:13:44.849 --> 00:13:46.350
just like a mother could
00:13:46.431 --> 00:13:48.711
see the baby in her womb by
00:13:48.812 --> 00:13:49.832
using a sonogram.
00:13:50.313 --> 00:13:51.554
Sonar does the same thing
00:13:51.654 --> 00:13:52.895
for us on the bottom of the
00:13:52.956 --> 00:13:54.216
river or the bottom of the ocean.
00:13:54.918 --> 00:13:56.177
And the image you see here
00:13:56.999 --> 00:13:58.438
is what's left of the bead
00:13:58.479 --> 00:13:59.979
wreck and significant
00:14:00.058 --> 00:14:01.480
because this is what we're
00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:03.679
trying to do at Stockton is
00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:05.740
to record the environmental
00:14:05.780 --> 00:14:06.860
conditions that are
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:08.520
degrading the areas of
00:14:08.581 --> 00:14:09.942
these historic wrecks.
00:14:10.522 --> 00:14:12.701
And this whole area is on
00:14:12.721 --> 00:14:13.903
the National Register of
00:14:13.942 --> 00:14:16.322
Historic Places because of this battle.
00:14:16.842 --> 00:14:17.604
And you can see where the
00:14:17.663 --> 00:14:18.823
marsh has collapsed.
00:14:19.703 --> 00:14:22.184
And a wreck that we dove 40 years ago
00:14:23.788 --> 00:14:25.149
was in eight feet of water,
00:14:25.190 --> 00:14:26.529
you could almost stand up
00:14:27.410 --> 00:14:28.610
and get to the surface.
00:14:29.111 --> 00:14:31.033
Now it's sitting at 45 feet
00:14:31.212 --> 00:14:32.592
and will eventually fall
00:14:32.633 --> 00:14:33.854
into the bottom of the river,
00:14:35.294 --> 00:14:36.634
totally disarticulate
00:14:36.695 --> 00:14:38.535
itself more than it is in
00:14:38.596 --> 00:14:40.297
that image and be gone forever.
00:14:41.116 --> 00:14:42.258
How deep is the river, Steve?
00:14:43.611 --> 00:14:44.792
The spot where that is,
00:14:44.893 --> 00:14:46.653
it gets down to about 60 feet.
00:14:46.873 --> 00:14:48.234
And a lot of that was the
00:14:48.313 --> 00:14:50.274
borrow pit to build the
00:14:50.794 --> 00:14:51.894
supports for the bridge.
00:14:52.535 --> 00:14:55.197
So the river is probably in
00:14:55.216 --> 00:14:56.437
the area that we're working,
00:14:56.496 --> 00:14:58.238
maybe 20 to 30 feet deep.
00:14:58.977 --> 00:15:00.458
And the rest of the river,
00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:02.759
as it gets up towards Batstow,
00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.240
which is a major furnace
00:15:04.561 --> 00:15:05.541
back in the Revolutionary
00:15:05.660 --> 00:15:06.880
War for iron products,
00:15:07.701 --> 00:15:09.982
it gets real shallow and 5 to 10 feet.
00:15:11.842 --> 00:15:13.464
We're talking with Steve Nagowitz,
00:15:13.524 --> 00:15:15.663
who is an underwater archaeologist,
00:15:15.703 --> 00:15:16.985
licensed shipmaster,
00:15:17.524 --> 00:15:18.664
author of Hidden History of
00:15:18.705 --> 00:15:19.846
Maritime New Jersey,
00:15:20.105 --> 00:15:21.446
as well as an essay about
00:15:22.687 --> 00:15:23.927
the Battle of Chestnut
00:15:23.986 --> 00:15:25.467
Point and the Crosswicks
00:15:25.567 --> 00:15:27.508
Creek and the role of these
00:15:27.528 --> 00:15:29.149
places in the American Revolution.
00:15:30.125 --> 00:15:31.307
and looking at southern New
00:15:31.346 --> 00:15:32.668
Jersey as a haven for
00:15:32.748 --> 00:15:34.528
privateers and what's been
00:15:34.568 --> 00:15:35.909
done to uncover these
00:15:36.029 --> 00:15:39.091
wrecks of these British vessels,
00:15:39.152 --> 00:15:40.072
which the privateers of
00:15:40.113 --> 00:15:43.754
Chestnut Point had captured in 1778.
00:15:43.754 --> 00:15:47.136
And so the dark areas in the image,
00:15:47.717 --> 00:15:49.018
that is the bottom of the river,
00:15:49.038 --> 00:15:50.799
or is that something else?
00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:53.620
This is a different type of
00:15:53.642 --> 00:15:55.101
sonar called multi-beam.
00:15:55.682 --> 00:15:57.124
So instead of side scan,
00:15:57.163 --> 00:15:58.904
which pushes one pulse out,
00:15:59.857 --> 00:16:00.717
you know, frequently,
00:16:00.778 --> 00:16:02.298
this one does many beams.
00:16:02.379 --> 00:16:05.239
So it gives you a relief
00:16:05.298 --> 00:16:06.519
picture of bathymetry.
00:16:06.698 --> 00:16:08.100
So you get to see the height
00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.080
and depth by the colors.
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.240
And this is the keel of what
00:16:14.301 --> 00:16:16.682
would have been a 70 to
00:16:16.741 --> 00:16:19.062
perhaps 90 foot two masted schooner.
00:16:20.201 --> 00:16:22.283
And you're seeing in the bright orange,
00:16:22.802 --> 00:16:24.482
the shallowest water and
00:16:24.643 --> 00:16:25.822
the deepest water is the
00:16:25.883 --> 00:16:27.323
darker blue and navies.
00:16:30.508 --> 00:16:31.448
In a better image,
00:16:31.509 --> 00:16:33.950
you'll see the ribs or the
00:16:34.009 --> 00:16:35.451
timbers that form the frame
00:16:35.490 --> 00:16:37.493
of the ship and some of the planks.
00:16:38.513 --> 00:16:39.614
Really, the only thing left,
00:16:39.693 --> 00:16:40.815
it's covered in sediment.
00:16:41.495 --> 00:16:43.356
But it's notable that it's
00:16:43.397 --> 00:16:45.798
sitting on a ledge close to
00:16:46.119 --> 00:16:47.399
the marina itself.
00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:48.961
And that part of the river
00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:50.280
is about 40 feet deep.
00:16:50.381 --> 00:16:51.182
And ultimately,
00:16:51.201 --> 00:16:52.442
a storm is going to come
00:16:52.503 --> 00:16:54.183
through and topple that
00:16:54.264 --> 00:16:56.225
wreck over as well, and it'll be gone.
00:16:56.285 --> 00:16:56.586
So it's...
00:16:57.135 --> 00:16:58.357
It's really a race against
00:16:58.437 --> 00:16:59.841
environmental conditions to
00:16:59.900 --> 00:17:01.123
document some of these wrecks.
00:17:02.662 --> 00:17:03.822
In this image in the fall,
00:17:04.603 --> 00:17:06.984
it's the newest wreck that we had found.
00:17:07.105 --> 00:17:09.446
And the side scan image is
00:17:09.547 --> 00:17:10.488
pretty detailed.
00:17:10.528 --> 00:17:11.509
You can see where the two
00:17:11.628 --> 00:17:13.330
arrows point to the mast steps.
00:17:14.010 --> 00:17:16.413
And for those who have a sailing ship,
00:17:16.512 --> 00:17:17.834
you know that the mast is
00:17:17.973 --> 00:17:20.476
anchored into the main hull of the ship.
00:17:21.156 --> 00:17:22.298
This is where they would
00:17:22.317 --> 00:17:24.038
have been put at the very bottom,
00:17:24.118 --> 00:17:24.720
the bilge.
00:17:25.059 --> 00:17:27.402
The last three feet of this
00:17:27.481 --> 00:17:29.182
sailing ship was two-masted.
00:17:29.963 --> 00:17:32.224
The image, if it could be enlarged,
00:17:32.305 --> 00:17:33.744
would literally show the
00:17:33.805 --> 00:17:35.226
ceiling planks of the
00:17:35.286 --> 00:17:37.086
bottom of the ship and a
00:17:37.165 --> 00:17:38.306
lot of where the cargo
00:17:38.326 --> 00:17:39.326
would have wound out.
00:17:40.106 --> 00:17:41.386
You kind of can see the
00:17:41.507 --> 00:17:44.268
shadow off to the right of the shipwreck.
00:17:44.688 --> 00:17:46.409
It looks like a little cockpit image.
00:17:47.252 --> 00:17:49.193
And those are the frames,
00:17:49.354 --> 00:17:51.474
the ribs of the foundation of the ship.
00:17:51.915 --> 00:17:54.037
Not that much different than
00:17:54.096 --> 00:17:55.498
the two-by-fours that hold
00:17:55.597 --> 00:17:57.198
up the walls of our homes.
00:17:57.798 --> 00:17:59.180
These were the ribs that the
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:00.720
inside and the outside of
00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:03.021
the wood would be for the ship's hull.
00:18:03.682 --> 00:18:04.642
And a picture from the
00:18:04.682 --> 00:18:05.843
American Museum of Natural
00:18:05.883 --> 00:18:06.963
History shows what a
00:18:07.003 --> 00:18:09.065
typical two-masted suit would be.
00:18:09.704 --> 00:18:12.606
These were merchant ships, cargo ships.
00:18:12.666 --> 00:18:14.428
They maybe carried one or two guns.
00:18:15.087 --> 00:18:16.568
The privateers knew that.
00:18:17.505 --> 00:18:18.546
They weren't going to lose
00:18:18.586 --> 00:18:21.067
their lives over goods,
00:18:21.929 --> 00:18:23.349
clothing and things like that.
00:18:23.369 --> 00:18:24.369
So they would surrender.
00:18:25.070 --> 00:18:26.491
The privateers would tow
00:18:26.511 --> 00:18:27.813
them back to Chestnut Neck
00:18:28.573 --> 00:18:29.413
and they would take
00:18:29.493 --> 00:18:30.755
everything of value off,
00:18:30.835 --> 00:18:32.415
sell the ships in auction,
00:18:32.817 --> 00:18:34.678
sell the cargo in auction for cash.
00:18:35.824 --> 00:18:37.884
what supplies walking would
00:18:37.924 --> 00:18:40.204
be transported over land up the river.
00:18:40.444 --> 00:18:41.204
The rest of it would have
00:18:41.224 --> 00:18:42.105
been sold for money,
00:18:42.224 --> 00:18:43.026
and that money would have
00:18:43.046 --> 00:18:44.766
been used to pay Washington's troops.
00:18:45.346 --> 00:18:45.705
Amazing.
00:18:46.046 --> 00:18:47.546
So if we think about other
00:18:47.606 --> 00:18:49.047
ships we know about from the period,
00:18:49.086 --> 00:18:51.007
the Diana, the Gatsby, I mean,
00:18:51.067 --> 00:18:52.186
it is the same model,
00:18:52.207 --> 00:18:54.847
this two-masted sailing vessel,
00:18:54.928 --> 00:18:56.387
probably the same size.
00:18:56.468 --> 00:18:57.509
It gives us a real sense of
00:18:57.568 --> 00:18:59.429
how big these wrecks are.
00:18:59.749 --> 00:19:00.028
I think,
00:19:00.108 --> 00:19:02.250
don't you have a video of this
00:19:02.369 --> 00:19:04.190
wreck itself that we could take a look at,
00:19:04.210 --> 00:19:04.509
Steve?
00:19:05.289 --> 00:19:05.670
We do.
00:19:05.750 --> 00:19:07.811
It's probably a multi-beam image.
00:19:08.673 --> 00:19:09.113
Here we go.
00:19:10.273 --> 00:19:12.655
So this is the area that the wreck sits.
00:19:12.776 --> 00:19:13.977
You can see the jagged
00:19:14.037 --> 00:19:15.698
shapes are what's left of
00:19:15.718 --> 00:19:17.859
the frames or the wooden timbers,
00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:19.701
the ribs, most people will call them.
00:19:20.461 --> 00:19:23.144
The inside of the ship is really,
00:19:23.983 --> 00:19:25.125
if you have a boat and
00:19:25.164 --> 00:19:26.546
you've ever had to go below
00:19:26.665 --> 00:19:28.428
to check the water level or
00:19:28.468 --> 00:19:29.989
the bilge or you drop something,
00:19:30.009 --> 00:19:31.529
this is the very bottom of the ship,
00:19:31.549 --> 00:19:32.471
the only thing that's left.
00:19:33.392 --> 00:19:35.913
That center line is the keel
00:19:36.193 --> 00:19:37.414
on the inside of the ship.
00:19:38.295 --> 00:19:39.996
And we are trying to put
00:19:40.036 --> 00:19:42.157
together the history of a ship from
00:19:42.912 --> 00:19:44.593
very little that's left.
00:19:44.893 --> 00:19:46.294
And some subsequent dives
00:19:46.374 --> 00:19:47.515
that we've made over the
00:19:47.535 --> 00:19:48.755
last couple of years have
00:19:48.795 --> 00:19:49.776
produced some pretty
00:19:49.836 --> 00:19:51.135
interesting artifacts that
00:19:52.237 --> 00:19:55.419
are remnants of the Revolutionary War.
00:19:55.499 --> 00:19:58.901
So that, in and of itself, historic.
00:19:59.461 --> 00:20:00.821
It looks like this looks like a pipe.
00:20:01.461 --> 00:20:02.643
It doesn't look like much,
00:20:02.782 --> 00:20:03.863
but it's the remains of a
00:20:03.942 --> 00:20:05.104
clay pipe that somebody
00:20:05.144 --> 00:20:07.045
would have fashioned to smoke.
00:20:08.766 --> 00:20:09.806
The state of New Jersey
00:20:09.905 --> 00:20:11.386
challenged us in order to
00:20:11.446 --> 00:20:13.647
prove that this was indeed
00:20:13.847 --> 00:20:15.548
one of the Mullica
00:20:15.648 --> 00:20:17.048
shipwrecks from the Battle
00:20:17.068 --> 00:20:17.888
of Chestnut Neck.
00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:20.810
We had to prove the ship had been burned.
00:20:20.951 --> 00:20:22.310
So that bottom image is a
00:20:22.391 --> 00:20:23.951
piece of timber that had been charred.
00:20:24.632 --> 00:20:26.492
The image above it is some
00:20:26.532 --> 00:20:28.472
broken glass that would
00:20:28.532 --> 00:20:30.834
have melted in the extreme heat.
00:20:31.515 --> 00:20:32.974
And we went to the extent of
00:20:33.575 --> 00:20:35.195
how hot would it have to be
00:20:35.276 --> 00:20:37.836
to melt a black glass rum bottle?
00:20:39.365 --> 00:20:41.146
We found that at 400 degrees,
00:20:41.366 --> 00:20:42.567
it turned the bottles
00:20:42.626 --> 00:20:43.827
almost blue in color.
00:20:43.928 --> 00:20:45.748
So we could prove the ship
00:20:45.807 --> 00:20:48.009
indeed was burned.
00:20:48.028 --> 00:20:50.829
The picture on the left is hard to see,
00:20:50.869 --> 00:20:51.911
because this ability is
00:20:51.990 --> 00:20:53.030
very poor in a river.
00:20:53.131 --> 00:20:55.031
But it's a trunnel or a tree nail.
00:20:56.211 --> 00:20:57.712
A lot of people in their
00:20:57.772 --> 00:20:59.574
homes will have their
00:20:59.634 --> 00:21:01.534
furniture or cabinetry done
00:21:01.653 --> 00:21:03.714
with wooden pegs, which are strong,
00:21:04.275 --> 00:21:05.276
to hold things together.
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.763
in 1777 1778 ships were
00:21:09.923 --> 00:21:12.045
built with tree nails they
00:21:12.065 --> 00:21:12.945
were a hole would be
00:21:12.986 --> 00:21:14.186
drilled they put a wooden
00:21:14.247 --> 00:21:15.527
peg in and slam it into
00:21:15.587 --> 00:21:17.249
place they didn't use nails
00:21:17.989 --> 00:21:19.009
and a lot of that
00:21:19.109 --> 00:21:20.611
construction is how we can
00:21:20.711 --> 00:21:22.071
date the shipwreck we know
00:21:22.152 --> 00:21:24.294
when but people started
00:21:24.594 --> 00:21:26.315
changing from wooden pegs
00:21:26.454 --> 00:21:29.017
to steel to iron to brass
00:21:30.016 --> 00:21:31.176
and date the history of it.
00:21:31.217 --> 00:21:32.398
So we knew we had an old one,
00:21:32.419 --> 00:21:34.200
and we were lucky enough to
00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:35.501
find some of the pottery
00:21:35.541 --> 00:21:38.284
that was broken in all of
00:21:38.344 --> 00:21:39.865
these burnings and sinkings,
00:21:39.986 --> 00:21:40.987
and they would have been
00:21:41.027 --> 00:21:42.147
exquisite pieces.
00:21:42.167 --> 00:21:43.909
You see that enamel finish
00:21:43.949 --> 00:21:45.109
still survived after 245 years.
00:21:45.131 --> 00:21:45.270
Mm-hmm.
00:21:46.932 --> 00:21:47.792
As well as the fire.
00:21:48.113 --> 00:21:49.694
We're talking with Steve Nagowitz,
00:21:49.755 --> 00:21:51.336
licensed shipmaster and
00:21:51.496 --> 00:21:52.798
underwater archaeologist,
00:21:52.837 --> 00:21:54.378
talking about the Battle of
00:21:54.439 --> 00:21:56.280
Chestnut Point in New Jersey.
00:21:57.040 --> 00:21:58.883
And now you've also talked
00:21:58.923 --> 00:22:01.085
about how difficult it is
00:22:01.144 --> 00:22:03.287
to see underwater physically.
00:22:03.406 --> 00:22:04.888
Can you dive?
00:22:04.909 --> 00:22:06.569
Would you dive to this or is
00:22:06.609 --> 00:22:07.810
it all being done with sonar?
00:22:08.612 --> 00:22:08.751
It's...
00:22:09.813 --> 00:22:11.153
most of the documentation
00:22:11.213 --> 00:22:13.454
sonar because I can get an
00:22:13.535 --> 00:22:15.015
image of the wreck and with
00:22:15.095 --> 00:22:16.935
multi-beam since it allows
00:22:17.036 --> 00:22:18.737
for a dimensional view we
00:22:18.777 --> 00:22:19.777
can put the wreck into
00:22:19.856 --> 00:22:22.278
context that's how it works
00:22:22.338 --> 00:22:24.419
around the river there's a
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:27.401
slide take a slide called
00:22:27.540 --> 00:22:29.221
the edge tech bathy could
00:22:29.261 --> 00:22:30.102
you bring that up
00:22:33.652 --> 00:22:34.971
What you're looking at is a
00:22:35.132 --> 00:22:36.232
multi-beam image of the
00:22:36.292 --> 00:22:37.593
section of the river that
00:22:37.633 --> 00:22:38.893
we found some shipwrecks.
00:22:39.554 --> 00:22:41.193
And the colors indicate the
00:22:41.233 --> 00:22:42.114
depth of the water.
00:22:42.273 --> 00:22:43.875
It also indicates where the
00:22:43.934 --> 00:22:45.494
water is traveling and how
00:22:45.835 --> 00:22:47.875
it moves throughout the river.
00:22:48.076 --> 00:22:50.195
And rivers are like a living thing.
00:22:51.856 --> 00:22:53.297
Water is coming in from the
00:22:53.416 --> 00:22:55.317
ocean at the inlet side,
00:22:55.538 --> 00:22:56.897
and it's coming downstream
00:22:56.978 --> 00:22:58.858
from the river inland New Jersey.
00:22:59.419 --> 00:23:00.419
And that back and forth
00:23:00.499 --> 00:23:01.720
motion is changing the
00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:03.059
marsh on both sides.
00:23:03.856 --> 00:23:05.137
We believe that a lot of
00:23:05.198 --> 00:23:06.660
these shipwrecks have been
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:07.961
covered up over the years.
00:23:08.241 --> 00:23:09.942
And some of them, like the newer wreck,
00:23:10.443 --> 00:23:12.246
has just been uncovered.
00:23:12.346 --> 00:23:13.827
So we're finding things that
00:23:14.048 --> 00:23:16.349
the river buries itself over time.
00:23:16.951 --> 00:23:18.372
But if you look at the image,
00:23:19.032 --> 00:23:19.594
the shipwreck
00:23:20.884 --> 00:23:24.067
The newer one is in the lower part,
00:23:24.127 --> 00:23:26.189
the orange section of the
00:23:26.229 --> 00:23:27.349
picture closest to the
00:23:27.390 --> 00:23:28.290
bottom of the screen.
00:23:28.851 --> 00:23:30.633
And the full wreck is a
00:23:30.913 --> 00:23:32.815
bright orange oval on the
00:23:32.894 --> 00:23:34.076
opposite side of that.
00:23:34.096 --> 00:23:35.977
You can see that there's a
00:23:36.037 --> 00:23:37.157
deep channel and the rest
00:23:37.198 --> 00:23:38.159
of it gets shallow.
00:23:38.179 --> 00:23:39.680
And that's just the ebb and
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:40.881
flow of currents in the river.
00:23:41.662 --> 00:23:43.242
How much, how deep are the tides?
00:23:43.282 --> 00:23:44.124
How much kind of a
00:23:44.144 --> 00:23:45.704
fluctuation is there in the tides to you?
00:23:47.365 --> 00:23:49.846
It varies a couple of feet depending on,
00:23:50.087 --> 00:23:50.528
of course,
00:23:51.388 --> 00:23:53.270
weather and what time and
00:23:53.471 --> 00:23:54.352
position of the moon.
00:23:54.412 --> 00:23:56.994
But the tidal changes are quite severe.
00:23:57.015 --> 00:24:00.318
It kind of limits us to diving in October,
00:24:00.338 --> 00:24:00.919
November,
00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:04.222
where the river vegetation dies off,
00:24:04.242 --> 00:24:05.865
the visibility increases,
00:24:06.005 --> 00:24:07.646
and the tides are a little bit less.
00:24:09.303 --> 00:24:10.784
And the diving aspect of it
00:24:10.844 --> 00:24:13.545
helps us confirm the construction.
00:24:13.565 --> 00:24:15.644
There's an image where, you know,
00:24:15.964 --> 00:24:17.445
some of my divers would go
00:24:17.506 --> 00:24:20.086
down with a slate and draw
00:24:20.386 --> 00:24:22.287
the construction because the sonar,
00:24:22.847 --> 00:24:24.228
while it is really good,
00:24:24.268 --> 00:24:25.667
it doesn't get as detailed.
00:24:25.708 --> 00:24:27.148
And there's a picture of a slate.
00:24:31.269 --> 00:24:32.651
And this is how the bow was,
00:24:32.730 --> 00:24:33.730
the very tip of the ship.
00:24:34.656 --> 00:24:35.917
It shows the construction,
00:24:35.978 --> 00:24:38.019
how the bow was built up by
00:24:38.058 --> 00:24:38.878
various timbers.
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:41.800
And this is the documentation,
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:43.642
the archaeology of it that
00:24:43.662 --> 00:24:45.942
we provide the state so
00:24:46.022 --> 00:24:48.565
that the history of these wrecks,
00:24:48.724 --> 00:24:50.086
like the ones across the
00:24:50.145 --> 00:24:52.926
state in Crosswood Creek,
00:24:54.167 --> 00:24:57.750
will document how they were
00:24:58.170 --> 00:24:59.371
over a period of time
00:24:59.833 --> 00:25:01.355
eventually wood is going to
00:25:01.375 --> 00:25:03.175
get eaten by the biological
00:25:03.257 --> 00:25:04.938
forces in the river and
00:25:04.978 --> 00:25:06.619
eventually disappear as
00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:09.542
they've been doing since 1778.
00:25:09.542 --> 00:25:11.744
Our job, my job,
00:25:12.665 --> 00:25:14.307
passion really is to make
00:25:14.367 --> 00:25:15.729
sure that people know this
00:25:15.788 --> 00:25:17.891
battle took place and why
00:25:17.951 --> 00:25:20.413
it was so important in today's context.
00:25:21.874 --> 00:25:23.074
That if it didn't happen,
00:25:23.634 --> 00:25:24.914
we might be drinking tea
00:25:24.954 --> 00:25:26.615
instead of coffee.
00:25:26.634 --> 00:25:27.474
That's very true.
00:25:27.494 --> 00:25:29.095
We're talking with Steve
00:25:29.115 --> 00:25:32.215
Nagowitz from Southern New Jersey,
00:25:32.576 --> 00:25:33.675
Stockton University,
00:25:33.715 --> 00:25:35.955
also a retired high school
00:25:35.996 --> 00:25:37.977
science teacher and real
00:25:37.997 --> 00:25:39.656
passion does seem to be
00:25:40.457 --> 00:25:43.018
ships and scuba diving and
00:25:43.077 --> 00:25:44.357
telling these great stories.
00:25:44.458 --> 00:25:46.238
I'm wondering a couple of
00:25:46.317 --> 00:25:48.939
things you've mentioned.
00:25:49.058 --> 00:25:49.179
One,
00:25:50.118 --> 00:25:51.419
finding out where the ships were made.
00:25:51.881 --> 00:25:53.021
And that relies on finding
00:25:53.082 --> 00:25:55.022
out what kind of wood they're made from.
00:25:55.042 --> 00:25:56.804
Have you had any more
00:25:56.964 --> 00:25:58.486
success in figuring out
00:25:58.506 --> 00:26:00.487
whether they're made in North America,
00:26:00.507 --> 00:26:01.326
in Britain,
00:26:01.468 --> 00:26:03.888
and where the ships might have come from?
00:26:06.131 --> 00:26:07.892
We thought we had a really
00:26:08.903 --> 00:26:10.825
smart idea we would take we
00:26:11.165 --> 00:26:12.928
took a piece of timber
00:26:13.387 --> 00:26:14.849
really thick piece from the
00:26:14.890 --> 00:26:16.872
wreck and sent it down to
00:26:17.472 --> 00:26:18.693
university of florida who
00:26:18.733 --> 00:26:20.997
did an analysis on and told
00:26:21.057 --> 00:26:24.480
us what I probably already
00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:25.582
knew but didn't really want
00:26:25.602 --> 00:26:26.762
to hear was that was made
00:26:26.803 --> 00:26:29.906
of oak and it was made of cedar so
00:26:30.959 --> 00:26:32.359
could have been made up in
00:26:32.420 --> 00:26:33.540
new england and it could
00:26:33.560 --> 00:26:34.981
have been made in in
00:26:35.162 --> 00:26:37.623
england right yeah it just
00:26:38.263 --> 00:26:39.565
you know economically why
00:26:39.585 --> 00:26:40.744
would you build a boat in
00:26:40.884 --> 00:26:42.526
england and sail it a very
00:26:42.606 --> 00:26:45.008
difficult sail across the
00:26:45.048 --> 00:26:46.969
atlantic to come here it
00:26:47.009 --> 00:26:48.309
would be so much simpler to
00:26:48.369 --> 00:26:49.671
build a boat in new england
00:26:49.951 --> 00:26:51.011
and cheaper too
00:26:51.760 --> 00:26:52.881
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:26:53.021 --> 00:26:54.382
So we believe that they're
00:26:54.521 --> 00:26:55.521
built in New England.
00:26:55.541 --> 00:26:57.262
They have absolutely no
00:26:57.323 --> 00:26:59.003
proof other than it makes
00:26:59.064 --> 00:27:00.845
some sense economically to do that.
00:27:01.365 --> 00:27:02.365
And it would be at least
00:27:02.444 --> 00:27:03.986
another 10 or 15 years
00:27:04.066 --> 00:27:05.165
before the Mullica River
00:27:05.766 --> 00:27:07.886
started building their own ships.
00:27:08.446 --> 00:27:09.208
That's interesting.
00:27:10.528 --> 00:27:11.348
That's interesting.
00:27:11.669 --> 00:27:12.269
Yeah.
00:27:12.348 --> 00:27:13.828
So we find out what we can,
00:27:14.029 --> 00:27:15.150
and we can't even figure out what
00:27:15.976 --> 00:27:17.356
these vessels actually were,
00:27:17.416 --> 00:27:18.298
what their names were.
00:27:18.377 --> 00:27:19.798
So I think I really commend
00:27:19.818 --> 00:27:21.300
you for what you have been
00:27:21.340 --> 00:27:22.801
able to document from them.
00:27:23.702 --> 00:27:24.804
Another thing that you've
00:27:24.844 --> 00:27:27.266
mentioned is that fish find
00:27:27.306 --> 00:27:28.886
these shipwrecked really
00:27:28.987 --> 00:27:30.949
useful places to hang out,
00:27:30.969 --> 00:27:32.170
and thus fishermen also.
00:27:32.589 --> 00:27:33.691
Has there been much damage
00:27:33.730 --> 00:27:35.011
to them you can detect
00:27:35.073 --> 00:27:36.273
either through fish or
00:27:36.374 --> 00:27:38.174
through people fishing just
00:27:38.214 --> 00:27:39.236
because this is a good spot
00:27:39.276 --> 00:27:40.477
to catch fish because the
00:27:40.517 --> 00:27:41.718
fish congregate around an
00:27:42.979 --> 00:27:43.660
object like this?
00:27:44.651 --> 00:27:45.751
If you bring up that
00:27:45.832 --> 00:27:49.555
comparison diagram for me.
00:27:49.955 --> 00:27:51.777
Jonathan's doing a great job
00:27:51.817 --> 00:27:53.057
handling the slides too.
00:27:54.259 --> 00:27:55.339
It's the picture of the fall
00:27:55.380 --> 00:28:01.726
wreck with the sailing ship inset.
00:28:01.826 --> 00:28:02.946
I can answer that question
00:28:02.987 --> 00:28:04.567
by saying in the side scan image,
00:28:04.667 --> 00:28:06.250
we actually see schools of
00:28:06.329 --> 00:28:08.391
fish on that particular shipwreck.
00:28:09.112 --> 00:28:10.752
In terms of what you asked for damage,
00:28:11.758 --> 00:28:13.259
It's a new shipwreck for us.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.740
It doesn't look like it's
00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:16.821
been damaged much.
00:28:16.922 --> 00:28:18.583
But if you look at the arrow
00:28:18.663 --> 00:28:21.384
in the center that points
00:28:21.444 --> 00:28:22.365
to the mast steps,
00:28:23.226 --> 00:28:24.926
I did notice that there's a
00:28:25.087 --> 00:28:26.067
big gap in there.
00:28:26.167 --> 00:28:27.209
So somebody might have
00:28:27.288 --> 00:28:28.549
accidentally tried to drop
00:28:28.589 --> 00:28:29.971
an anchor and got it stuck
00:28:30.010 --> 00:28:30.791
and pulled it out.
00:28:31.471 --> 00:28:32.673
But these positions,
00:28:33.073 --> 00:28:34.894
even though you see a map
00:28:34.954 --> 00:28:36.915
where they're located, are not known
00:28:37.696 --> 00:28:38.938
And that's intentional by
00:28:38.998 --> 00:28:41.080
both the state and myself
00:28:41.161 --> 00:28:42.201
and Stockton University.
00:28:42.241 --> 00:28:43.742
We don't want people going there.
00:28:45.105 --> 00:28:48.628
But they can be fished and
00:28:48.648 --> 00:28:50.130
the river is extensively
00:28:50.230 --> 00:28:51.652
commercially harvested for
00:28:51.771 --> 00:28:52.792
oysters and crabs.
00:28:53.894 --> 00:28:55.015
The Kramer wreck is too
00:28:55.055 --> 00:28:56.277
close to a marina for
00:28:56.396 --> 00:28:57.778
anybody to do any damage
00:28:57.817 --> 00:28:59.099
and it's too deep for even
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.121
ships to damage it.
00:29:00.785 --> 00:29:03.548
The bead wreck is falling apart.
00:29:04.328 --> 00:29:06.171
It doesn't even hold fish anymore.
00:29:07.011 --> 00:29:07.752
And the other wrecks
00:29:08.173 --> 00:29:09.875
probably are so buried that
00:29:09.894 --> 00:29:11.136
it will be a while before
00:29:11.196 --> 00:29:12.057
they get uncovered.
00:29:12.557 --> 00:29:13.839
So the simple answer is I
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:15.981
haven't seen much in the way of damage.
00:29:16.461 --> 00:29:18.223
The fall has some damage on
00:29:18.243 --> 00:29:19.385
the inside of the ship
00:29:19.445 --> 00:29:20.527
that's consistent with
00:29:20.567 --> 00:29:21.867
somebody who got an anchor stuck.
00:29:22.888 --> 00:29:23.930
But at the same time,
00:29:24.471 --> 00:29:27.032
when we dove that spot to see the damage,
00:29:27.512 --> 00:29:28.953
we found that that spot was
00:29:29.095 --> 00:29:30.115
probably where an old
00:29:30.195 --> 00:29:31.416
galley was because we
00:29:31.517 --> 00:29:33.458
recovered some red fire brick.
00:29:34.538 --> 00:29:36.401
So what do you mean there was a galley?
00:29:36.421 --> 00:29:37.622
Was that from the fall or
00:29:37.662 --> 00:29:39.042
was that from something else?
00:29:39.083 --> 00:29:39.943
It was from the fall.
00:29:39.963 --> 00:29:40.084
I mean,
00:29:40.584 --> 00:29:43.006
imagine you're a sailor on a ship
00:29:43.066 --> 00:29:43.946
and you're sailing up and
00:29:43.987 --> 00:29:45.607
down the coast from either
00:29:46.548 --> 00:29:48.711
points south or from New England and
00:29:49.699 --> 00:29:51.039
every evening you certainly
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:52.661
want a cup of tea or a hot
00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.541
meal so they had a stove on
00:29:54.561 --> 00:29:56.563
the ship and it was built
00:29:56.663 --> 00:29:57.723
into the ship there'd be a
00:29:57.763 --> 00:29:59.525
layer of sand there'd be a
00:29:59.565 --> 00:30:00.786
layer of brick there'd be a
00:30:00.826 --> 00:30:01.987
layer of sand and a layer
00:30:02.007 --> 00:30:03.508
of brick to keep the fire
00:30:03.587 --> 00:30:04.768
from burning a wood ship
00:30:05.409 --> 00:30:06.589
but it was a way to make a
00:30:06.630 --> 00:30:08.471
hot meal and a lot of ships
00:30:08.510 --> 00:30:10.031
have them and you go back
00:30:10.132 --> 00:30:11.613
to the really only
00:30:12.704 --> 00:30:14.345
extensive archaeology was
00:30:14.525 --> 00:30:17.226
the privateer defense up in New England,
00:30:17.286 --> 00:30:19.126
which really did show what
00:30:19.186 --> 00:30:20.386
a stove would look like and
00:30:20.426 --> 00:30:21.467
where it would be on a ship.
00:30:21.807 --> 00:30:22.906
And you wouldn't think, well,
00:30:23.048 --> 00:30:24.968
having a flame on a ship's a bad thing,
00:30:25.087 --> 00:30:26.268
but they knew that too.
00:30:26.708 --> 00:30:28.449
And they were pretty smart at the time,
00:30:29.009 --> 00:30:31.288
even though we look at 200
00:30:31.288 --> 00:30:32.210
years ago and say,
00:30:32.250 --> 00:30:33.630
how smart can you really be?
00:30:33.690 --> 00:30:34.049
They were.
00:30:34.069 --> 00:30:34.670
Right.
00:30:35.049 --> 00:30:35.309
Wow.
00:30:35.430 --> 00:30:36.050
It is amazing.
00:30:36.070 --> 00:30:36.671
Well, they learned.
00:30:37.550 --> 00:30:37.750
Here,
00:30:37.810 --> 00:30:39.631
Jonathan's found an image of the Nags
00:30:39.711 --> 00:30:39.971
wreck,
00:30:40.071 --> 00:30:41.791
which I guess is the newest one you've
00:30:44.012 --> 00:30:48.500
It's on the opposite side of the fall.
00:30:49.221 --> 00:30:50.984
It's in an area of the river
00:30:51.505 --> 00:30:53.489
that I think as the river
00:30:53.669 --> 00:30:55.751
comes down from central New
00:30:55.771 --> 00:30:57.095
Jersey and the Pinelands,
00:30:57.739 --> 00:30:59.621
It's moving mud back and forth.
00:30:59.760 --> 00:31:01.422
And I believe this wreck for
00:31:01.481 --> 00:31:02.864
years had been covered over
00:31:02.943 --> 00:31:04.325
because a lot of people
00:31:04.704 --> 00:31:05.645
have fished the river.
00:31:05.865 --> 00:31:06.787
And a lot of people use
00:31:06.826 --> 00:31:09.108
sonar to find a fish or to
00:31:09.148 --> 00:31:10.829
locate their pots for
00:31:10.891 --> 00:31:11.971
fishing and oyster beds.
00:31:12.711 --> 00:31:14.473
And nobody had seen this before.
00:31:14.773 --> 00:31:16.154
And it was only until a year
00:31:16.194 --> 00:31:17.016
or so ago that...
00:31:18.734 --> 00:31:20.395
When I asked my students,
00:31:20.455 --> 00:31:22.155
where would you put ships at anchor,
00:31:22.175 --> 00:31:24.076
the spot of the river was
00:31:24.576 --> 00:31:26.458
the favorite place of almost all of them,
00:31:26.498 --> 00:31:27.738
yet we didn't find anything
00:31:27.778 --> 00:31:29.058
there until a few years ago.
00:31:29.858 --> 00:31:31.799
And this is the remnants of that ship.
00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:34.320
And we haven't dived it yet
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:35.861
because it's kind of murky.
00:31:37.903 --> 00:31:39.904
It does look relatively old.
00:31:40.244 --> 00:31:40.984
I don't think it's
00:31:41.045 --> 00:31:42.806
somebody's Chris Craft that
00:31:42.865 --> 00:31:45.227
has some Chevy big block engine on there.
00:31:45.926 --> 00:31:48.307
But after dragging a magnetometer,
00:31:48.367 --> 00:31:50.949
we did find a great impact
00:31:51.650 --> 00:31:53.569
in some kind of iron that was there.
00:31:53.670 --> 00:31:55.310
So perhaps an anchor or
00:31:55.330 --> 00:31:56.230
hopefully a cannon.
00:31:57.432 --> 00:31:57.711
Wow.
00:31:57.892 --> 00:31:58.352
Amazing.
00:32:00.192 --> 00:32:02.473
Some more images of the Nags wreck.
00:32:03.275 --> 00:32:05.417
and your namesake in the
00:32:05.458 --> 00:32:08.080
river um it's amazing my
00:32:08.101 --> 00:32:10.503
wife my wife says it's my
00:32:10.544 --> 00:32:12.645
conceit it's um it's only
00:32:12.685 --> 00:32:14.429
about 10 or 12 feet in
00:32:14.509 --> 00:32:15.589
parts of it and then the
00:32:15.670 --> 00:32:17.271
other part of it is in 30
00:32:17.271 --> 00:32:18.252
some feet and they're
00:32:18.292 --> 00:32:20.194
separated we did put a
00:32:20.295 --> 00:32:21.557
couple of friends of mine
00:32:21.656 --> 00:32:22.758
on the wreck once and
00:32:23.762 --> 00:32:26.044
Invisibility that's measured in inches,
00:32:26.784 --> 00:32:28.084
we're probably a few feet
00:32:28.144 --> 00:32:30.125
away and never really got to see it.
00:32:30.184 --> 00:32:32.025
So we'll be going back this October,
00:32:32.085 --> 00:32:34.165
November to try and make an attempt.
00:32:34.865 --> 00:32:36.066
I believe it's probably an
00:32:36.145 --> 00:32:38.967
old work barge that would
00:32:38.987 --> 00:32:39.747
make some sense.
00:32:40.086 --> 00:32:41.606
Imagine you have 10 ships at
00:32:41.686 --> 00:32:43.167
anchor and you're taking
00:32:43.228 --> 00:32:44.167
goods from them all the
00:32:44.208 --> 00:32:44.807
time or you're
00:32:44.847 --> 00:32:46.367
disassembling them to send
00:32:46.387 --> 00:32:47.068
them to auction.
00:32:47.509 --> 00:32:49.249
You would need a platform to work on.
00:32:49.328 --> 00:32:50.308
And this makes a lot of
00:32:50.348 --> 00:32:52.710
sense that it would be that.
00:32:53.598 --> 00:32:54.759
And talking to the people
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:55.881
who have lived there all
00:32:55.921 --> 00:32:57.001
their lives and traced
00:32:57.021 --> 00:32:58.083
their ancestry back,
00:32:58.982 --> 00:33:01.325
no one ever has said that
00:33:01.846 --> 00:33:03.267
they've lost their own
00:33:03.346 --> 00:33:04.928
personal boat there.
00:33:05.188 --> 00:33:07.210
So we believe it's part of
00:33:07.390 --> 00:33:10.271
the 10 that were in Chestnut Neck,
00:33:10.352 --> 00:33:10.913
Mollica River.
00:33:11.593 --> 00:33:12.193
That's amazing.
00:33:12.973 --> 00:33:13.174
Steve,
00:33:13.194 --> 00:33:14.476
I wonder if we can talk a little bit
00:33:14.556 --> 00:33:15.757
about Crossworks Creek,
00:33:15.797 --> 00:33:16.717
which was one of the other
00:33:16.777 --> 00:33:17.998
sites you mentioned in a
00:33:18.057 --> 00:33:19.278
different part of the state.
00:33:20.059 --> 00:33:20.799
And I don't think we have
00:33:20.840 --> 00:33:22.342
any images of that, but what's...
00:33:26.436 --> 00:33:28.557
It's the opposite end of the
00:33:28.656 --> 00:33:31.877
state's version of the Mullica River.
00:33:31.917 --> 00:33:32.998
And honestly,
00:33:33.077 --> 00:33:34.637
the Mullica is close to
00:33:34.698 --> 00:33:35.838
Stockton University,
00:33:35.878 --> 00:33:37.939
so it's a perfect classroom,
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:40.578
which is why we spend a lot
00:33:40.618 --> 00:33:41.400
of our time there.
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.240
But in working with Monmouth
00:33:43.299 --> 00:33:44.480
University and one of their
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:47.361
graduate students, Jacqueline Fisher,
00:33:48.141 --> 00:33:51.361
we documented that site.
00:33:51.421 --> 00:33:52.442
It's also on the National
00:33:52.481 --> 00:33:53.902
Register of Historic Places.
00:33:54.642 --> 00:33:54.761
The
00:33:55.511 --> 00:33:58.193
colonial forces bought all
00:33:58.273 --> 00:34:00.055
their ships into the river
00:34:00.115 --> 00:34:01.875
to protect them from the British coming.
00:34:02.496 --> 00:34:04.376
They sank them in place and
00:34:04.537 --> 00:34:06.778
we found one specific
00:34:06.837 --> 00:34:07.979
shipwreck that's buried in
00:34:08.018 --> 00:34:09.440
the mud that has very
00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:11.101
similar construction to the
00:34:11.141 --> 00:34:11.760
Mullica wrecks.
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:12.782
No big surprise,
00:34:12.802 --> 00:34:14.041
the boats are probably all
00:34:14.061 --> 00:34:15.762
made very similar,
00:34:16.403 --> 00:34:17.983
just made some sense to do that.
00:34:19.184 --> 00:34:22.507
But the images are less than spectacular,
00:34:22.887 --> 00:34:24.648
but they will also be part
00:34:24.768 --> 00:34:26.208
of the documentation of
00:34:26.829 --> 00:34:28.371
that particular battle and
00:34:28.431 --> 00:34:30.871
the overall part of the use
00:34:30.952 --> 00:34:32.793
of privateers and supplying
00:34:32.813 --> 00:34:35.295
Washington's army with
00:34:35.375 --> 00:34:37.416
goods and services as well as cash.
00:34:37.496 --> 00:34:39.297
And that will be the chapter
00:34:39.597 --> 00:34:40.777
in the next book on the
00:34:40.818 --> 00:34:42.018
history of the Revolutionary War.
00:34:42.807 --> 00:34:44.028
So this is the archaeology
00:34:44.048 --> 00:34:45.309
of the American Revolution book,
00:34:45.369 --> 00:34:48.331
or is this yet to be written?
00:34:48.351 --> 00:34:50.474
So with that book,
00:34:50.614 --> 00:34:51.614
we're filling in the
00:34:51.735 --> 00:34:53.436
absence of not really
00:34:53.635 --> 00:34:55.777
including the Crosswood Creeks part.
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:58.960
And honestly, Mullica, it's close to home,
00:34:59.000 --> 00:34:59.900
so it's easier.
00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:01.681
And to travel across the
00:35:01.722 --> 00:35:06.346
state to see a wreck in two feet of water,
00:35:06.385 --> 00:35:07.606
and sometimes in low tide,
00:35:07.626 --> 00:35:09.588
you can literally walk to it.
00:35:09.628 --> 00:35:11.170
We just want to document it.
00:35:11.650 --> 00:35:13.469
the site so that the state
00:35:13.510 --> 00:35:14.971
has it on record that this
00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:16.010
is what it looks like,
00:35:16.070 --> 00:35:17.351
this is how it's degrading,
00:35:18.032 --> 00:35:19.152
because that information is
00:35:19.192 --> 00:35:19.931
important to all
00:35:20.012 --> 00:35:22.193
archaeologists to see how
00:35:22.753 --> 00:35:27.534
time and river will destroy
00:35:27.793 --> 00:35:29.233
a shipwreck or at least change it.
00:35:29.253 --> 00:35:30.375
It's amazing.
00:35:30.934 --> 00:35:32.275
It must be great for you and
00:35:32.295 --> 00:35:33.114
your students actually
00:35:33.155 --> 00:35:34.315
physically to be able to go
00:35:34.335 --> 00:35:36.016
and do this and get this
00:35:36.456 --> 00:35:39.496
hands-on connection with the wrecks.
00:35:40.851 --> 00:35:42.532
They love it until they get
00:35:42.592 --> 00:35:44.634
onto the river and meet the greenhead,
00:35:46.974 --> 00:35:47.556
which are,
00:35:48.436 --> 00:35:50.438
imagine a bee and a mosquito
00:35:50.557 --> 00:35:52.079
put together and give them
00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.099
a really bad attitude and it's horrible.
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:56.521
But they love the fact that
00:35:56.541 --> 00:35:57.503
they're contributing to
00:35:57.543 --> 00:35:58.623
history and it's something
00:35:58.664 --> 00:35:59.744
more than just listening to
00:35:59.784 --> 00:36:02.346
a lecture in class.
00:36:03.126 --> 00:36:05.168
We don't do it as often as we'd like,
00:36:06.588 --> 00:36:08.389
only because I can't put 30
00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:10.092
students on a boat.
00:36:10.652 --> 00:36:12.132
But we can take the really
00:36:12.193 --> 00:36:14.313
interested ones who maybe
00:36:14.353 --> 00:36:15.793
want to do this as a career
00:36:16.034 --> 00:36:17.934
or really want to help to
00:36:18.135 --> 00:36:20.235
document it on smaller vessels.
00:36:20.916 --> 00:36:22.697
And I teach them how to use the sonar,
00:36:22.717 --> 00:36:23.777
why it's important.
00:36:23.916 --> 00:36:24.976
And a lot of them have gone
00:36:25.056 --> 00:36:26.577
on to jobs working for NOAA.
00:36:27.253 --> 00:36:28.032
and the Army Corps of
00:36:28.092 --> 00:36:29.373
Engineers doing this kind
00:36:29.393 --> 00:36:30.373
of work across the state,
00:36:30.434 --> 00:36:33.715
which makes me happy to see
00:36:33.775 --> 00:36:35.396
that other people pick up the passion.
00:36:35.976 --> 00:36:36.197
Right.
00:36:36.876 --> 00:36:38.157
And just speaking of NOAA,
00:36:38.177 --> 00:36:39.358
you're also the co-author
00:36:39.458 --> 00:36:40.798
of the Robert J. Walker,
00:36:40.838 --> 00:36:42.599
The History and Archaeology of a U.S.
00:36:42.659 --> 00:36:43.980
Coast Survey Steamship.
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.101
And that's a tremendous story, too,
00:36:46.221 --> 00:36:48.501
about the Walker that was a
00:36:48.601 --> 00:36:50.302
part of the whole mapping
00:36:50.563 --> 00:36:53.364
of the coast and the Gulf Stream.
00:36:55.588 --> 00:36:57.170
the Walker had an unfortunate end,
00:36:57.251 --> 00:36:59.954
but you were able to work with the wreck.
00:37:01.516 --> 00:37:01.797
It is.
00:37:01.817 --> 00:37:03.838
I've been fortunate to be
00:37:03.878 --> 00:37:05.081
able to work on most of the
00:37:05.121 --> 00:37:06.161
historic wrecks in New
00:37:06.202 --> 00:37:08.405
Jersey and as much by,
00:37:08.885 --> 00:37:10.867
by chance as it is designed,
00:37:10.907 --> 00:37:11.668
but the Walker wreck,
00:37:12.429 --> 00:37:14.289
was one of the early ships
00:37:14.449 --> 00:37:15.809
that actually produced the
00:37:15.849 --> 00:37:18.251
first charts of the U.S.
00:37:18.592 --> 00:37:19.072
coastline.
00:37:19.751 --> 00:37:21.632
And Thomas Jefferson
00:37:21.713 --> 00:37:23.193
realized early on that the
00:37:23.273 --> 00:37:24.454
only way this country was
00:37:24.494 --> 00:37:25.554
going to survive was to
00:37:25.594 --> 00:37:26.735
make its own nautical
00:37:26.795 --> 00:37:28.755
charts so that people knew
00:37:28.815 --> 00:37:29.556
how to sail here.
00:37:30.349 --> 00:37:30.510
I mean,
00:37:30.530 --> 00:37:32.251
you look at the coastline and what
00:37:32.451 --> 00:37:33.490
got me interested in
00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:35.170
shipwrecks were the thousands,
00:37:35.271 --> 00:37:36.351
literally thousands of
00:37:36.411 --> 00:37:37.572
shipwrecks that had been
00:37:38.371 --> 00:37:39.512
sunk off the coast,
00:37:39.592 --> 00:37:41.432
not only of New Jersey, but New England,
00:37:41.472 --> 00:37:43.074
North Carolina, down to Florida,
00:37:43.653 --> 00:37:44.974
simply because people
00:37:45.034 --> 00:37:46.255
didn't know the waters and
00:37:46.295 --> 00:37:47.295
got stuck in a storm.
00:37:48.335 --> 00:37:49.675
So these charts were a plus
00:37:49.735 --> 00:37:50.976
and the Walker was part of it.
00:37:51.577 --> 00:37:53.958
It was one of the only coast
00:37:54.018 --> 00:37:55.679
survey ships to sink with
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:57.221
private citizens on board.
00:37:57.902 --> 00:38:00.063
So NOAA declared it a
00:38:00.164 --> 00:38:01.563
National Historic Site.
00:38:02.184 --> 00:38:03.405
And I was privileged to be
00:38:03.465 --> 00:38:05.206
able to document all that
00:38:05.246 --> 00:38:06.807
with a lot of local friends.
00:38:07.389 --> 00:38:08.489
One of the few times where
00:38:08.528 --> 00:38:09.570
the government worked with
00:38:09.630 --> 00:38:11.050
divers and the divers were
00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:11.992
looking forward to
00:38:12.692 --> 00:38:13.952
documenting a shipwreck and
00:38:13.992 --> 00:38:16.514
not necessarily keeping the artifacts.
00:38:17.175 --> 00:38:19.117
right right it's amazing so
00:38:19.376 --> 00:38:20.697
steve I know we could keep
00:38:20.757 --> 00:38:22.018
talking about shipwrecks
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:23.980
all day but I know you have
00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:26.041
probably a shipwrecks to
00:38:26.081 --> 00:38:28.402
get to um anything else we
00:38:28.422 --> 00:38:29.722
should add before we let you go
00:38:32.054 --> 00:38:33.974
remember the history for for
00:38:34.074 --> 00:38:35.416
all of you who are watching
00:38:35.496 --> 00:38:37.496
the 250th anniversary of
00:38:37.617 --> 00:38:39.719
our revolution is coming up
00:38:39.838 --> 00:38:42.420
and it's more than just
00:38:42.541 --> 00:38:44.882
going to some valley forge
00:38:44.961 --> 00:38:46.003
and a lot of the other
00:38:46.083 --> 00:38:48.003
battles if it weren't for
00:38:48.023 --> 00:38:50.465
the privateers we probably
00:38:50.686 --> 00:38:51.726
wouldn't have had a
00:38:51.826 --> 00:38:54.228
successful revolution and
00:38:54.688 --> 00:38:56.030
remember the history because
00:38:56.070 --> 00:38:57.552
it's where our country
00:38:57.612 --> 00:38:59.474
started and hopefully where
00:38:59.516 --> 00:39:00.536
we keep moving along.
00:39:00.577 --> 00:39:02.039
And thank you so much for
00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:03.101
letting me tell the story.
00:39:03.641 --> 00:39:04.282
Well, thank you, Steve.
00:39:04.322 --> 00:39:04.963
Thank you so much for
00:39:05.023 --> 00:39:05.804
joining us and thank you
00:39:05.824 --> 00:39:06.885
for the work you're doing to
00:39:07.570 --> 00:39:09.092
bring this history to light.
00:39:09.112 --> 00:39:10.632
It's really amazing stories.
00:39:10.692 --> 00:39:12.632
And Steve Nagowitz is the
00:39:12.813 --> 00:39:13.612
author of the Hidden
00:39:13.652 --> 00:39:15.454
History of Maritime New Jersey,
00:39:15.534 --> 00:39:18.014
which talks about lots of
00:39:18.094 --> 00:39:19.195
these shipwrecks that he's
00:39:19.235 --> 00:39:20.195
been talking about.
00:39:20.514 --> 00:39:21.735
And his article on the
00:39:22.976 --> 00:39:24.436
Chestnut Creek will be out
00:39:24.536 --> 00:39:25.536
in the Chestnut Point in
00:39:25.556 --> 00:39:26.536
the Archaeology of the
00:39:26.577 --> 00:39:28.737
American Revolution next year.
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:31.398
So thank you so much for joining us,
00:39:31.418 --> 00:39:31.639
Steve.
00:39:31.659 --> 00:39:32.599
It's been great talking with
00:39:32.619 --> 00:39:33.559
you and catching up on
00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:35.000
what's going on underwater.
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:36.981
Keep the podcast going.
00:39:37.021 --> 00:39:37.320
I love it.
00:39:37.914 --> 00:39:38.474
Well, we will.
00:39:38.715 --> 00:39:39.076
Thank you.
00:39:39.396 --> 00:39:40.755
And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
00:39:40.815 --> 00:39:43.157
who really is keeping the podcast going.
00:39:43.237 --> 00:39:45.378
He's been our man behind the scenes today.
00:39:45.579 --> 00:39:47.559
And I also want to thank our
00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:48.320
many listeners.
00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:49.661
And every week we thank some
00:39:49.701 --> 00:39:50.701
in different parts of the
00:39:50.780 --> 00:39:52.561
world who are tuning in regularly.
00:39:52.601 --> 00:39:53.222
And if you're in one of
00:39:53.262 --> 00:39:55.103
these places and want, say,
00:39:55.163 --> 00:39:57.204
our Revolution 250 playing cards,
00:39:58.085 --> 00:39:59.606
send Jonathan Lane an email,
00:39:59.666 --> 00:40:01.907
jlane at revolution250.org.
00:40:02.067 --> 00:40:03.067
And this week I want to
00:40:03.146 --> 00:40:04.128
thank our listeners.
00:40:04.807 --> 00:40:07.570
in the Garden State in Wayne, Hamilton,
00:40:07.590 --> 00:40:08.172
Hewitt,
00:40:08.552 --> 00:40:10.574
Mendham and Trenton and other
00:40:10.635 --> 00:40:12.135
towns here in Massachusetts,
00:40:12.195 --> 00:40:16.380
Weymouth and Boston and Carmichael,
00:40:16.420 --> 00:40:18.182
California, Amman, Jordan,
00:40:18.402 --> 00:40:20.005
places between and beyond.
00:40:20.605 --> 00:40:22.047
And now we will be piped out
00:40:22.206 --> 00:40:23.068
on the road to Boston.