George Washington's Long Island Spy Ring

Agents, double-agents, spies, secret messages, codes, cyphers are the words that evoke the world of intelligence gathering, a necessary tool for the success of any army.  George Washington knew better than anyone the value of knowing what your enemy's plans were and to prevent them, if at all possible, from learning your  own plans.  Amazingly there are still many sites associated with the Culper Spy Ring that you can visit.  Bill Bleyer, journalist and historian, tells us about his book, George Washington's Long Island Spy Ring:  A History and Tour Guide. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:02.435 --> 00:00:03.194
 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
 
 00:00:05.596 --> 00:00:06.536
 I am Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:06.956 --> 00:00:08.798
 I chair the Rev 250 advisory group.
 
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 We are a collaboration among
 
 00:00:10.397 --> 00:00:12.278
 75 groups in Massachusetts,
 
 00:00:12.718 --> 00:00:13.339
 planning ways to
 
 00:00:13.380 --> 00:00:14.279
 commemorate the beginnings
 
 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:15.660
 of American independence.
 
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 And our guest today is Bill Blyer.
 
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 Bill is a journalist,
 
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 spent much of his career at Newsday,
 
 00:00:21.763 --> 00:00:23.524
 as well as, again, it's been an editor,
 
 00:00:23.544 --> 00:00:24.344
 been a reporter,
 
 00:00:24.403 --> 00:00:25.605
 and still a freelance journalist.
 
 00:00:26.224 --> 00:00:27.385
 also has become an historian
 
 00:00:27.504 --> 00:00:28.525
 and he's written a great
 
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 book george washington's
 
 00:00:30.106 --> 00:00:31.949
 long island spy ring a
 
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 history and tour guide so
 
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 bill thanks for joining us
 
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 thank you bob so can you
 
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 tell us a bit about who the
 
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 you know why there's a spy
 
 00:00:41.216 --> 00:00:43.357
 ring on long island during
 
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 the american revolution um
 
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 basically it was um
 
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 a group of friends in
 
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 Setauket out on the North
 
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 Shore of Suffolk County who
 
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 are ardent patriots and
 
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 basically had the right
 
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 people in the right place.
 
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 You know,
 
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 George Washington always
 
 00:01:01.811 --> 00:01:03.171
 complained that it wasn't the right place,
 
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 but it worked.
 
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 They tried to go other routes,
 
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 but there was just a lot of
 
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 Tories in the town,
 
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 but there was this core
 
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 group of patriots and they
 
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 all decided to get involved.
 
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 You know, it was
 
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 sort of the ringleader was
 
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 uh benjamin talmadge if you
 
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 can see his picture here he
 
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 was the son of one of the
 
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 local clergymen he enlisted
 
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 in the continental army in
 
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 a cavalry unit from
 
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 connecticut because most of
 
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 the patriots fled long
 
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 island after the battle of
 
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 long island to go to new
 
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 england and many of them
 
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 served in the continental
 
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 army so talmadge becomes
 
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 the washington spy master
 
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 pulls it all together and uh
 
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 That's why Setauket becomes
 
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 the base for all of this.
 
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 Okay.
 
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 So how would they operate?
 
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 They're trying to get
 
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 intelligence from the
 
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 British to Washington.
 
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 So how would all of this,
 
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 how would this network work?
 
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 It was complicated and very time-consuming,
 
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 and Washington complained
 
 00:02:01.378 --> 00:02:02.457
 throughout the war that it
 
 00:02:02.498 --> 00:02:03.679
 was too time-consuming
 
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 because the information
 
 00:02:05.381 --> 00:02:06.701
 they got was extremely
 
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 detailed and valuable,
 
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 but it often got there so
 
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 late that Washington couldn't act on it.
 
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 So the route, initially, you have...
 
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 Abraham Woodhull was a
 
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 farmer out in Setauket who
 
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 knows the other players.
 
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 And he would go into the
 
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 city to try to gather information.
 
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 And then he would rendezvous
 
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 with another friend, Caleb Brewster,
 
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 a ship captain,
 
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 who would carry the
 
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 information across Long
 
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 Island Sound where Benjamin
 
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 Talmadge would be waiting.
 
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 And then he would take it to
 
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 headquarters and give it to Washington.
 
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 And this is a series of
 
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 murals about the spy ring
 
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 out in the Setauket school.
 
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 Okay, wow.
 
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 This one shows you Brewster
 
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 getting information from,
 
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 he's the one with the
 
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 pantaloons on there.
 
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 getting information from
 
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 Woodhull the farmer to
 
 00:03:01.872 --> 00:03:03.373
 carried across the Sound to Talmadge.
 
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 So in the beginning it would
 
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 take literally about three
 
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 weeks to make this
 
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 circubinous route from
 
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 Manhattan out to Setauket,
 
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 which is 55 mile horseback ride.
 
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 about a 20-mile row or sail
 
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 across the Sound to Talmadge,
 
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 you would then have to ride
 
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 to wherever headquarters
 
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 was north or northwest of the city.
 
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 Eventually,
 
 00:03:23.844 --> 00:03:25.205
 they got this down to about a
 
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 week to 10 days,
 
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 but Washington still wasn't
 
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 happy with the length of time.
 
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 Now, it must have been dangerous.
 
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 I mean,
 
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 were any of these guys captured
 
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 while they were bringing information?
 
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 None of them were captured.
 
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 Some of the letters were intercepted,
 
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 the spy letters.
 
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 And in one incidence,
 
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 the British knew this was
 
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 going on and tried to intercept it,
 
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 as they show in turn,
 
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 but they turn it around inside out.
 
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 Colonel Simcoe from the
 
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 Queen's Rangers actually
 
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 goes out to Setauket to try to capture
 
 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:00.599
 uh woodhull at one point
 
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 because the tories out
 
 00:04:01.640 --> 00:04:02.700
 there suspected he was a
 
 00:04:02.721 --> 00:04:05.822
 spy um uh in one case so
 
 00:04:05.842 --> 00:04:06.662
 the brit the british would
 
 00:04:06.701 --> 00:04:07.602
 actually do whale boat
 
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 raids themselves across the
 
 00:04:09.002 --> 00:04:11.242
 sound uh to try to capture
 
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 uh couriers and at one
 
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 point they raided
 
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 talmadge's camp he was on
 
 00:04:15.183 --> 00:04:16.504
 his way from the rendezvous
 
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 uh with brewster on his way
 
 00:04:18.904 --> 00:04:20.204
 back to headquarters a british
 
 00:04:20.865 --> 00:04:21.946
 force came across in whale
 
 00:04:21.985 --> 00:04:23.225
 boats raided his camp
 
 00:04:23.605 --> 00:04:24.807
 scattered the americans
 
 00:04:26.127 --> 00:04:27.487
 talmadge escaped and the
 
 00:04:27.608 --> 00:04:29.428
 other people with him
 
 00:04:29.509 --> 00:04:30.629
 escaped because a local
 
 00:04:30.649 --> 00:04:32.970
 militia unit was heard the
 
 00:04:33.009 --> 00:04:34.370
 alarm and came to their
 
 00:04:34.870 --> 00:04:35.831
 rescue but not before
 
 00:04:35.891 --> 00:04:37.291
 talmadge's horse was
 
 00:04:37.351 --> 00:04:38.112
 captured along with
 
 00:04:38.132 --> 00:04:38.992
 everything in the camp
 
 00:04:40.134 --> 00:04:41.093
 there was a spy letter in
 
 00:04:41.113 --> 00:04:42.274
 the saddlebag but luckily
 
 00:04:42.295 --> 00:04:42.954
 at this point they were
 
 00:04:43.035 --> 00:04:44.975
 using code so there was no
 
 00:04:45.036 --> 00:04:46.757
 long lasting effect other
 
 00:04:46.776 --> 00:04:47.637
 than george washington
 
 00:04:47.656 --> 00:04:49.358
 scolding talmadge to be more careful
 
 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.300
 wow well um now you
 
 00:04:52.321 --> 00:04:53.601
 mentioned the series turn
 
 00:04:54.182 --> 00:04:56.543
 um I know you have views on
 
 00:04:56.584 --> 00:04:57.504
 it it gets a lot of people
 
 00:04:57.543 --> 00:04:58.584
 excited about the period
 
 00:04:58.625 --> 00:04:59.785
 but you pointed out that it
 
 00:04:59.906 --> 00:05:01.326
 does turn a lot of things
 
 00:05:01.386 --> 00:05:02.586
 inside out and upside down
 
 00:05:04.997 --> 00:05:05.576
 Yeah, I mean,
 
 00:05:05.598 --> 00:05:06.677
 I wouldn't have written my
 
 00:05:06.718 --> 00:05:07.678
 book without TURN because
 
 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:08.620
 it generated a lot of
 
 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:11.182
 interest initially in 2014
 
 00:05:11.182 --> 00:05:13.343
 to 17 when it was on AMC
 
 00:05:13.403 --> 00:05:14.324
 and then Netflix picked it
 
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 up and a whole new
 
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 generation is watching it
 
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 and people love it.
 
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 But so many people like will
 
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 post on Facebook on my pages and say, oh,
 
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 I saw TURN,
 
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 now I understand how the spy
 
 00:05:23.432 --> 00:05:25.132
 operation worked and I sort of groan.
 
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 The other local historians
 
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 who I rely on and trade information with
 
 00:05:31.877 --> 00:05:33.038
 And I have actually compiled
 
 00:05:33.119 --> 00:05:34.860
 a like parlor game list of
 
 00:05:34.899 --> 00:05:37.101
 all the factual inaccuracies in turn,
 
 00:05:38.101 --> 00:05:39.702
 which is on two single
 
 00:05:39.983 --> 00:05:42.004
 space pages so far and still growing.
 
 00:05:43.386 --> 00:05:44.086
 But, you know,
 
 00:05:44.105 --> 00:05:45.346
 my publisher came to me and said,
 
 00:05:45.387 --> 00:05:46.528
 you know, turn is so popular.
 
 00:05:46.548 --> 00:05:47.548
 Can you come up with a book
 
 00:05:48.329 --> 00:05:49.028
 on the spy ring?
 
 00:05:49.069 --> 00:05:49.649
 And I said, well,
 
 00:05:49.750 --> 00:05:50.930
 Alex Rose did the sort of
 
 00:05:50.990 --> 00:05:52.331
 Bible on the subject.
 
 00:05:53.052 --> 00:05:54.112
 Morton Pennypacker first
 
 00:05:54.151 --> 00:05:55.892
 wrote about it in a book
 
 00:05:55.932 --> 00:05:56.973
 that's highly inaccurate.
 
 00:05:57.952 --> 00:05:59.033
 Brian Kilmeade did a book
 
 00:05:59.052 --> 00:06:00.033
 that's highly inaccurate,
 
 00:06:00.052 --> 00:06:01.254
 but sold a million copies.
 
 00:06:02.014 --> 00:06:03.473
 So I said, I'm not sure what I could do.
 
 00:06:03.514 --> 00:06:04.254
 And then I came up with the
 
 00:06:04.314 --> 00:06:05.615
 idea of doing a combination
 
 00:06:05.694 --> 00:06:08.274
 of the aspiring story and
 
 00:06:08.295 --> 00:06:10.154
 also like a tour guide to
 
 00:06:10.175 --> 00:06:10.896
 all the sites in Long
 
 00:06:10.956 --> 00:06:11.995
 Island that were still there.
 
 00:06:13.156 --> 00:06:14.136
 And as I got into the research,
 
 00:06:14.175 --> 00:06:15.257
 I kept finding conflicts
 
 00:06:15.336 --> 00:06:17.156
 and myths that couldn't be substantiated.
 
 00:06:18.718 --> 00:06:19.600
 And finally decided to write
 
 00:06:19.620 --> 00:06:21.221
 an analytical story,
 
 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:21.961
 which goes through
 
 00:06:22.041 --> 00:06:22.682
 everything that's been
 
 00:06:22.702 --> 00:06:24.403
 written by anybody and picks it apart,
 
 00:06:24.985 --> 00:06:26.266
 which makes my book unique.
 
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 And as far as the historians I trust,
 
 00:06:29.228 --> 00:06:31.009
 the most accurate story of the spy ring,
 
 00:06:31.129 --> 00:06:32.550
 you know, yet by anybody.
 
 00:06:34.053 --> 00:06:36.314
 It's good to go back to turn
 
 00:06:36.334 --> 00:06:37.154
 just a couple of examples
 
 00:06:37.175 --> 00:06:39.596
 of what's wrong with it.
 
 00:06:40.396 --> 00:06:41.136
 Some of it's minor,
 
 00:06:41.175 --> 00:06:43.016
 like in the first half of the series,
 
 00:06:43.076 --> 00:06:43.776
 they show the Queens
 
 00:06:43.817 --> 00:06:45.577
 Rangers and Colonel Simcoe
 
 00:06:45.637 --> 00:06:46.358
 operating on Long Island
 
 00:06:46.377 --> 00:06:47.158
 wearing red coats.
 
 00:06:47.377 --> 00:06:48.379
 And anybody in the
 
 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:49.939
 revolution knows the
 
 00:06:49.978 --> 00:06:51.279
 loyalist troops wore green
 
 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:53.199
 through the series.
 
 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:54.860
 Either Alex Rose that they
 
 00:06:54.901 --> 00:06:56.620
 hired as a consultant and
 
 00:06:56.661 --> 00:06:57.742
 then it mostly ignored.
 
 00:06:58.622 --> 00:06:59.963
 Or somebody pointed out that
 
 00:06:59.983 --> 00:07:01.064
 they had the wrong uniform.
 
 00:07:01.105 --> 00:07:02.386
 Don Troiana had done a great
 
 00:07:03.367 --> 00:07:04.288
 picture of Simcoe and the
 
 00:07:04.307 --> 00:07:05.910
 Queens Rangers wearing the proper green.
 
 00:07:06.750 --> 00:07:07.290
 So Mithrae,
 
 00:07:07.331 --> 00:07:08.692
 through the series with that explanation,
 
 00:07:08.752 --> 00:07:10.033
 the uniforms go to green.
 
 00:07:11.035 --> 00:07:11.634
 But there's a couple of
 
 00:07:11.654 --> 00:07:13.456
 things that are really crazy.
 
 00:07:16.019 --> 00:07:17.658
 In the first episode,
 
 00:07:17.718 --> 00:07:19.459
 you see Abraham Woodhull,
 
 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:20.560
 the farmer who becomes the
 
 00:07:20.579 --> 00:07:21.961
 chief spy for the spy ring
 
 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.221
 in a tavern with Anna Strong.
 
 00:07:26.262 --> 00:07:27.223
 Anna Strong is sort of the
 
 00:07:27.242 --> 00:07:28.642
 Martha Washington of Long
 
 00:07:28.742 --> 00:07:30.584
 Island or the spy ring era.
 
 00:07:31.624 --> 00:07:32.644
 She and her husband, Selah,
 
 00:07:32.684 --> 00:07:33.545
 were among the richest,
 
 00:07:33.665 --> 00:07:35.425
 biggest landowners on Long Island.
 
 00:07:36.725 --> 00:07:37.625
 They owned a big chunk of
 
 00:07:37.646 --> 00:07:38.906
 the North Shore of Suffolk County.
 
 00:07:39.925 --> 00:07:40.406
 But in turn,
 
 00:07:40.447 --> 00:07:41.687
 they show her serving drinks
 
 00:07:41.726 --> 00:07:43.286
 to people in a tavern in Setauket,
 
 00:07:43.326 --> 00:07:44.048
 which is like Martha
 
 00:07:44.088 --> 00:07:45.687
 Washington entertaining the
 
 00:07:45.747 --> 00:07:47.528
 locals in Mount Vernon in a tavern.
 
 00:07:47.588 --> 00:07:48.428
 It's preposterous.
 
 00:07:49.790 --> 00:07:50.670
 The other one that's
 
 00:07:50.750 --> 00:07:53.153
 preposterous is either the
 
 00:07:53.173 --> 00:07:54.434
 first or second episode,
 
 00:07:55.295 --> 00:07:56.997
 you see Colonel Simcoe from
 
 00:07:57.016 --> 00:07:58.718
 the Queens Rangers out in
 
 00:07:58.737 --> 00:08:00.959
 Setauket having tea with
 
 00:08:01.401 --> 00:08:03.002
 Woodhull's father, the local minister.
 
 00:08:04.158 --> 00:08:05.800
 and they portray Woodhull Sr.
 
 00:08:06.420 --> 00:08:07.982
 as an ardent loyalist
 
 00:08:08.403 --> 00:08:09.684
 complaining with Simcoe
 
 00:08:09.744 --> 00:08:11.045
 about his son's activity
 
 00:08:11.084 --> 00:08:11.964
 and how the patriots are
 
 00:08:11.985 --> 00:08:13.867
 ruining the country when in
 
 00:08:13.947 --> 00:08:16.129
 fact the elder Woodhull was
 
 00:08:16.249 --> 00:08:17.689
 as much of a patriot as his son.
 
 00:08:18.449 --> 00:08:19.850
 When Simcoe goes out to try
 
 00:08:19.891 --> 00:08:21.512
 to question Abraham and
 
 00:08:21.533 --> 00:08:22.533
 they can't find him because
 
 00:08:22.553 --> 00:08:24.514
 he's in the city gathering
 
 00:08:24.574 --> 00:08:25.536
 spy information,
 
 00:08:25.915 --> 00:08:26.976
 they grab the father and
 
 00:08:27.076 --> 00:08:28.137
 almost beat him to death
 
 00:08:28.158 --> 00:08:30.720
 trying to find out where his son is,
 
 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:31.540
 which is very different
 
 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:32.961
 than drinking tea with Simcoe.
 
 00:08:33.761 --> 00:08:36.023
 But there's a whole list of inaccuracies.
 
 00:08:37.203 --> 00:08:37.384
 Yeah.
 
 00:08:38.203 --> 00:08:41.086
 Now, how do you as an historian then?
 
 00:08:41.105 --> 00:08:41.546
 I mean,
 
 00:08:41.605 --> 00:08:44.226
 we have Morton Pennepacker and others,
 
 00:08:44.287 --> 00:08:46.368
 you know, telling the story in one way.
 
 00:08:46.828 --> 00:08:48.509
 Are you using different sources?
 
 00:08:48.609 --> 00:08:48.828
 I mean,
 
 00:08:48.870 --> 00:08:50.990
 how do you get at how does anyone
 
 00:08:51.350 --> 00:08:53.052
 really get at an accurate
 
 00:08:53.331 --> 00:08:55.113
 account of what happened
 
 00:08:55.232 --> 00:08:57.333
 when these guys aren't necessarily,
 
 00:08:57.354 --> 00:08:57.953
 you know,
 
 00:08:59.168 --> 00:09:00.328
 Maybe they are keeping journals,
 
 00:09:00.369 --> 00:09:01.090
 but they're not really
 
 00:09:01.129 --> 00:09:02.211
 posting reports about
 
 00:09:02.291 --> 00:09:03.451
 espionage activities.
 
 00:09:03.993 --> 00:09:04.452
 Or are they?
 
 00:09:06.394 --> 00:09:06.615
 No.
 
 00:09:06.936 --> 00:09:08.778
 All we know is the letters,
 
 00:09:09.398 --> 00:09:10.139
 the surviving letters.
 
 00:09:10.178 --> 00:09:10.919
 And they weren't supposed to
 
 00:09:10.940 --> 00:09:11.980
 be surviving letters.
 
 00:09:15.856 --> 00:09:16.738
 Woodhull in the city,
 
 00:09:16.857 --> 00:09:17.658
 Robert Townsend when he
 
 00:09:17.697 --> 00:09:19.219
 becomes the chief spy in the city.
 
 00:09:19.239 --> 00:09:21.339
 I'm sorry, Woodhull in Setauket,
 
 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:23.220
 Robert Townsend in the city.
 
 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:25.760
 In most of the surviving letters,
 
 00:09:25.780 --> 00:09:26.500
 you keep seeing this
 
 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:28.422
 admonition to Washington
 
 00:09:28.442 --> 00:09:29.402
 and Talmadge to make sure
 
 00:09:29.422 --> 00:09:30.582
 you destroy these letters
 
 00:09:31.543 --> 00:09:32.543
 after you read them or
 
 00:09:32.582 --> 00:09:33.604
 decode them and read them.
 
 00:09:34.203 --> 00:09:35.105
 because they're very
 
 00:09:35.144 --> 00:09:36.905
 paranoid about being ended
 
 00:09:36.966 --> 00:09:38.505
 up on a gallows like Nathan Hale.
 
 00:09:38.525 --> 00:09:39.466
 Sure.
 
 00:09:39.927 --> 00:09:40.827
 For whatever reason,
 
 00:09:40.908 --> 00:09:42.269
 Washington and Talmadge, I guess,
 
 00:09:42.288 --> 00:09:43.249
 do it a lot in the beginning,
 
 00:09:43.288 --> 00:09:46.191
 but they don't don't destroy them all.
 
 00:09:46.270 --> 00:09:47.652
 So there are transcriptions
 
 00:09:47.711 --> 00:09:48.211
 of some of them,
 
 00:09:48.251 --> 00:09:48.932
 some of the originals
 
 00:09:48.991 --> 00:09:51.553
 before they're coded that survive.
 
 00:09:51.594 --> 00:09:51.833
 In fact,
 
 00:09:51.854 --> 00:09:54.034
 there's 194 known surviving
 
 00:09:54.095 --> 00:09:56.836
 letters totaling 305 pages.
 
 00:09:57.576 --> 00:09:59.378
 So that's all we know for a fact.
 
 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:01.700
 Morton Pennypacker,
 
 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:02.620
 who was a Suffolk County
 
 00:10:02.660 --> 00:10:05.023
 historian and become the
 
 00:10:05.062 --> 00:10:07.465
 official county historian at some point,
 
 00:10:08.085 --> 00:10:08.985
 writes two books in the
 
 00:10:09.186 --> 00:10:11.729
 19th and one in 1931 and 1939.
 
 00:10:11.729 --> 00:10:15.152
 And just going through the letters,
 
 00:10:15.711 --> 00:10:17.614
 somehow he figures out all the players.
 
 00:10:17.653 --> 00:10:19.335
 And I'm not even sure because
 
 00:10:20.543 --> 00:10:22.446
 they're using code names early on.
 
 00:10:22.466 --> 00:10:23.407
 Uh, it,
 
 00:10:23.547 --> 00:10:24.889
 it's brilliant piece of detective work,
 
 00:10:24.928 --> 00:10:26.211
 how he identifies all the
 
 00:10:26.230 --> 00:10:28.594
 key players in the first book.
 
 00:10:28.634 --> 00:10:29.634
 And then in the second book,
 
 00:10:29.715 --> 00:10:30.856
 he proves that Robert
 
 00:10:30.876 --> 00:10:33.461
 Townsend was Cooper jr.
 
 00:10:34.201 --> 00:10:37.385
 By comparing, uh, uh, the, uh,
 
 00:10:38.350 --> 00:10:39.431
 account books that Townsend
 
 00:10:39.471 --> 00:10:41.471
 kept as the agent for his
 
 00:10:41.511 --> 00:10:42.493
 merchant father out in
 
 00:10:42.592 --> 00:10:44.712
 Oyster Bay has a
 
 00:10:44.753 --> 00:10:45.953
 handwriting expert compare
 
 00:10:45.974 --> 00:10:47.193
 the analysis and said, OK,
 
 00:10:47.214 --> 00:10:49.195
 the corporate junior letter
 
 00:10:49.215 --> 00:10:50.154
 is coming out from the city
 
 00:10:50.195 --> 00:10:51.275
 or the same handwriting as
 
 00:10:51.336 --> 00:10:51.956
 in the account books.
 
 00:10:52.535 --> 00:10:54.756
 So he proves that Townsend is a member.
 
 00:10:55.496 --> 00:10:56.258
 But that's all we know.
 
 00:10:56.418 --> 00:10:57.258
 And then from that,
 
 00:10:57.337 --> 00:10:58.158
 people just take these
 
 00:10:58.197 --> 00:10:59.239
 giant leaps of faith with
 
 00:10:59.339 --> 00:11:02.399
 absolutely no valid information.
 
 00:11:02.580 --> 00:11:05.260
 And some of them are easily debunked,
 
 00:11:05.760 --> 00:11:06.642
 like the fact that
 
 00:11:08.684 --> 00:11:11.846
 Robert Townsend's younger sister, Sally,
 
 00:11:11.907 --> 00:11:13.248
 out in Oyster Bay overhears
 
 00:11:13.807 --> 00:11:16.070
 Colonel Simcoe talking to John Andre,
 
 00:11:16.549 --> 00:11:18.510
 the British aide-de-camp and spymaster,
 
 00:11:19.091 --> 00:11:20.231
 about Benedict Arnold's
 
 00:11:20.292 --> 00:11:21.952
 plan to flip sides.
 
 00:11:22.052 --> 00:11:23.033
 And then she alerts Robert,
 
 00:11:23.053 --> 00:11:23.953
 who learns Talmadge,
 
 00:11:24.414 --> 00:11:25.615
 and that's how he's captured.
 
 00:11:26.515 --> 00:11:27.216
 It's nonsense.
 
 00:11:27.636 --> 00:11:30.798
 We know that Andre stayed with that...
 
 00:11:33.682 --> 00:11:35.124
 Andre stayed at Raynham Hall
 
 00:11:35.163 --> 00:11:36.183
 for a week because he was
 
 00:11:36.224 --> 00:11:37.344
 recuperating from an illness.
 
 00:11:37.964 --> 00:11:39.745
 He wrote several letters from Raynham Hall,
 
 00:11:39.845 --> 00:11:40.644
 and they were a full year
 
 00:11:40.705 --> 00:11:43.985
 before Arnold makes his
 
 00:11:44.005 --> 00:11:45.566
 first overtures to flip sides.
 
 00:11:46.025 --> 00:11:46.605
 So a lot of them,
 
 00:11:46.666 --> 00:11:48.486
 even basic research would debunk,
 
 00:11:49.126 --> 00:11:51.347
 but some of the stuff is just crazy.
 
 00:11:53.408 --> 00:11:55.068
 Brian Kilmeade, who I like to pick on,
 
 00:11:55.129 --> 00:11:57.311
 invents a Agent 355 with
 
 00:11:57.990 --> 00:12:00.211
 absolutely no proof that
 
 00:12:00.272 --> 00:12:01.373
 such a woman existed,
 
 00:12:01.533 --> 00:12:02.634
 and then has her become the
 
 00:12:02.833 --> 00:12:04.835
 illegitimate mistress of
 
 00:12:05.635 --> 00:12:06.716
 Robert Townsend in the city,
 
 00:12:06.836 --> 00:12:07.736
 although there's only one
 
 00:12:07.797 --> 00:12:09.018
 woman mentioned in any letter,
 
 00:12:09.038 --> 00:12:09.557
 a generic 355,
 
 00:12:09.557 --> 00:12:12.559
 which is the code for any woman.
 
 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:14.159
 and it's a letter from
 
 00:12:14.220 --> 00:12:15.260
 woodhull to washington
 
 00:12:15.301 --> 00:12:16.100
 saying that with the help
 
 00:12:16.140 --> 00:12:18.761
 of a 355 he will be able to
 
 00:12:18.841 --> 00:12:20.442
 outwit the british so brian
 
 00:12:20.482 --> 00:12:21.903
 kill me takes that one fact
 
 00:12:22.462 --> 00:12:23.604
 turns this woman into a
 
 00:12:23.663 --> 00:12:26.585
 tory uh family member who
 
 00:12:26.664 --> 00:12:27.504
 sympathizes with the
 
 00:12:27.544 --> 00:12:29.005
 revolution goes to andre's
 
 00:12:29.125 --> 00:12:30.886
 soirees in the city and
 
 00:12:30.927 --> 00:12:32.447
 then tips off washington no
 
 00:12:32.486 --> 00:12:33.788
 proof says they have
 
 00:12:33.868 --> 00:12:34.827
 illegitimate child though
 
 00:12:34.847 --> 00:12:36.629
 there's no connection proven at all to
 
 00:12:37.729 --> 00:12:38.870
 towns in the city and then
 
 00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:40.211
 says she ends up dying on a
 
 00:12:40.250 --> 00:12:42.011
 prison hulk in New York Bay.
 
 00:12:42.532 --> 00:12:43.873
 And it's all totally made up.
 
 00:12:44.533 --> 00:12:46.335
 He actually convened a group
 
 00:12:46.355 --> 00:12:47.936
 of all the historians I relied on.
 
 00:12:47.956 --> 00:12:49.356
 They all told him the true
 
 00:12:49.376 --> 00:12:50.336
 story and then he went off
 
 00:12:50.376 --> 00:12:51.097
 and just made it up,
 
 00:12:51.177 --> 00:12:52.318
 even made up dialogue for
 
 00:12:52.359 --> 00:12:54.159
 them without explaining how
 
 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:55.259
 he would know what they
 
 00:12:55.299 --> 00:12:56.681
 said to each other in their meetings.
 
 00:12:57.381 --> 00:12:58.542
 So it's really,
 
 00:13:00.568 --> 00:13:03.051
 just a lot of speculation of fact.
 
 00:13:03.110 --> 00:13:06.212
 And one CIA analyst wrote
 
 00:13:06.253 --> 00:13:07.874
 about there's a famous myth
 
 00:13:08.114 --> 00:13:09.955
 that Anna Strong
 
 00:13:09.995 --> 00:13:12.177
 communicated with Woodhull
 
 00:13:12.197 --> 00:13:13.258
 across the harbor by using
 
 00:13:13.298 --> 00:13:15.379
 her clothesline to say when
 
 00:13:15.839 --> 00:13:16.740
 Talmadge is going to show
 
 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:18.380
 up to pick up or drop off letters.
 
 00:13:21.028 --> 00:13:21.749
 It's a great story.
 
 00:13:21.769 --> 00:13:22.330
 It could have worked,
 
 00:13:22.389 --> 00:13:23.789
 but it's no proof it ever happened.
 
 00:13:24.490 --> 00:13:25.931
 And then a historian out in
 
 00:13:25.990 --> 00:13:28.971
 the Phillips Row House in Port Jefferson,
 
 00:13:29.011 --> 00:13:30.231
 which is known to be the
 
 00:13:30.532 --> 00:13:32.732
 home of two members of the spy ring,
 
 00:13:32.773 --> 00:13:33.793
 did some research and found
 
 00:13:33.812 --> 00:13:35.533
 out Anna Strong wasn't
 
 00:13:35.573 --> 00:13:36.614
 staying at her Setauket
 
 00:13:36.634 --> 00:13:38.073
 property during the revolution.
 
 00:13:38.134 --> 00:13:39.355
 She stayed at another home
 
 00:13:39.875 --> 00:13:40.995
 further east of Mount Sinai,
 
 00:13:41.014 --> 00:13:42.816
 where you couldn't even see it.
 
 00:13:43.515 --> 00:13:45.716
 So one person even had one
 
 00:13:45.976 --> 00:13:48.437
 CIA analyst wrote that it was
 
 00:13:49.857 --> 00:13:50.498
 Caleb,
 
 00:13:50.518 --> 00:13:52.279
 it was Talmadge in Connecticut was
 
 00:13:52.340 --> 00:13:54.981
 watching the handkerchiefs
 
 00:13:55.081 --> 00:13:56.602
 and the petticoats from Connecticut,
 
 00:13:57.283 --> 00:13:58.844
 which is impossible because
 
 00:13:58.884 --> 00:13:59.884
 of the curvature of the earth.
 
 00:14:01.466 --> 00:14:02.767
 People just haven't done their homework.
 
 00:14:02.787 --> 00:14:03.707
 It's amazing.
 
 00:14:03.988 --> 00:14:06.230
 But they're telling good stories,
 
 00:14:07.070 --> 00:14:08.211
 but not plausible stories
 
 00:14:08.250 --> 00:14:09.091
 if you look into them.
 
 00:14:09.474 --> 00:14:09.653
 Yeah,
 
 00:14:09.693 --> 00:14:11.235
 but this is all portrayed as history.
 
 00:14:11.335 --> 00:14:11.514
 I mean,
 
 00:14:13.235 --> 00:14:16.636
 Tern says it's a drama series and
 
 00:14:18.177 --> 00:14:20.859
 people should expect them to dramatize it,
 
 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:22.399
 which they did and change the facts.
 
 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:24.260
 But Kilmeade's book is
 
 00:14:24.321 --> 00:14:27.001
 billed as straight history.
 
 00:14:27.022 --> 00:14:28.101
 A lot of these other things
 
 00:14:28.142 --> 00:14:28.702
 that have been written
 
 00:14:29.903 --> 00:14:30.984
 going back to Pennypacker,
 
 00:14:31.083 --> 00:14:33.225
 were described as straight history.
 
 00:14:33.645 --> 00:14:35.366
 Pennypacker is the first one
 
 00:14:35.748 --> 00:14:37.188
 to share this Anna Strong legend,
 
 00:14:37.229 --> 00:14:38.750
 which was handed down through her family.
 
 00:14:39.630 --> 00:14:42.533
 And a descendant of Anna
 
 00:14:43.413 --> 00:14:44.594
 writes a family history and says,
 
 00:14:44.614 --> 00:14:45.315
 we know this is true
 
 00:14:45.355 --> 00:14:46.596
 because of family documents
 
 00:14:47.255 --> 00:14:49.077
 and some of the paperwork
 
 00:14:49.118 --> 00:14:50.759
 that Pennypacker uncovered
 
 00:14:50.798 --> 00:14:52.139
 that's in the East Hampton Library,
 
 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.000
 except nobody's ever seen any of this.
 
 00:14:55.142 --> 00:14:55.322
 I mean,
 
 00:14:55.341 --> 00:14:56.682
 the basic historical research
 
 00:14:56.743 --> 00:14:58.124
 debunks almost all of this stuff.
 
 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:00.981
 Well, we're talking with Bill Blyer,
 
 00:15:01.082 --> 00:15:01.842
 author of George
 
 00:15:01.883 --> 00:15:03.764
 Washington's Long Island Spy Ring,
 
 00:15:04.125 --> 00:15:05.745
 a history and tour guide.
 
 00:15:07.126 --> 00:15:08.808
 Now, as you said,
 
 00:15:09.188 --> 00:15:10.490
 you also wanted to show the
 
 00:15:10.549 --> 00:15:12.932
 places that are still there.
 
 00:15:13.011 --> 00:15:13.773
 So what are some of the
 
 00:15:14.352 --> 00:15:15.714
 sites on Long Island that
 
 00:15:15.754 --> 00:15:17.615
 are tied to the Culper Spy
 
 00:15:17.655 --> 00:15:19.336
 Ring that are still around?
 
 00:15:19.897 --> 00:15:21.639
 Woodhull's Farmhouse was on
 
 00:15:21.658 --> 00:15:22.639
 the shore of Setauket Hub
 
 00:15:22.658 --> 00:15:24.240
 and burned down in the 1950s.
 
 00:15:25.721 --> 00:15:27.322
 Benjamin Talmadge's family home,
 
 00:15:27.363 --> 00:15:27.923
 which was the
 
 00:15:30.705 --> 00:15:32.267
 adjacent to, I think,
 
 00:15:32.287 --> 00:15:33.970
 the Presbyterian Church is still there.
 
 00:15:33.990 --> 00:15:35.010
 You can see it from the water,
 
 00:15:35.051 --> 00:15:36.072
 but not from the land.
 
 00:15:41.038 --> 00:15:42.460
 You can see where Woodhull's
 
 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.443
 grave is in the graveyard in Setauket.
 
 00:15:45.524 --> 00:15:47.285
 There's a lot of sites associated with
 
 00:15:48.216 --> 00:15:50.379
 the Patriot story in the Revolution.
 
 00:15:51.700 --> 00:15:52.379
 Raynham Hall,
 
 00:15:52.460 --> 00:15:53.701
 which was the family home of
 
 00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:55.162
 Robert Townsend in Oyster Bay,
 
 00:15:55.581 --> 00:15:57.583
 is a house museum,
 
 00:15:57.604 --> 00:15:58.844
 so people can visit that
 
 00:15:59.465 --> 00:16:00.365
 and learn more about
 
 00:16:00.426 --> 00:16:01.907
 Townsend and the spy ring there.
 
 00:16:03.027 --> 00:16:04.467
 But there's a whole core of
 
 00:16:05.068 --> 00:16:06.309
 Revolutionary era buildings
 
 00:16:06.370 --> 00:16:07.890
 all along the North Shore of Long Island.
 
 00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:10.633
 The state actually in 2017,
 
 00:16:10.633 --> 00:16:12.293
 corresponding with the end of turn,
 
 00:16:13.014 --> 00:16:15.035
 created a George Washington spy trail,
 
 00:16:15.056 --> 00:16:16.236
 a heritage corridor,
 
 00:16:16.876 --> 00:16:17.876
 And they put up signs with
 
 00:16:17.876 --> 00:16:21.738
 55 miles as a website where
 
 00:16:21.758 --> 00:16:23.217
 you can learn about all the
 
 00:16:23.258 --> 00:16:26.458
 different sites and get an
 
 00:16:26.739 --> 00:16:27.759
 audio tour as you go.
 
 00:16:27.778 --> 00:16:28.698
 Oh, great.
 
 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:29.879
 Great.
 
 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:31.659
 So there's a lot of stuff you can do.
 
 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:31.899
 I mean,
 
 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.260
 people can spend a day or more just
 
 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:36.061
 tracking down connections
 
 00:16:36.100 --> 00:16:36.660
 to the spy ring.
 
 00:16:36.961 --> 00:16:37.780
 There's also the Three
 
 00:16:37.801 --> 00:16:39.121
 Village Historical Society
 
 00:16:39.142 --> 00:16:40.961
 and a couple of commercial
 
 00:16:41.162 --> 00:16:43.402
 operations give Culper spy
 
 00:16:43.442 --> 00:16:44.523
 tours where they drive you
 
 00:16:44.562 --> 00:16:46.102
 around and show you the different sites.
 
 00:16:47.461 --> 00:16:48.841
 There's a great deal of interest in this,
 
 00:16:48.902 --> 00:16:49.261
 as you said,
 
 00:16:49.302 --> 00:16:50.923
 really because of the series turn.
 
 00:16:51.624 --> 00:16:53.586
 And it's good then that
 
 00:16:53.625 --> 00:16:56.128
 you're able to take these
 
 00:16:56.268 --> 00:16:57.307
 interests people have and
 
 00:16:57.349 --> 00:16:58.789
 turn it into what the
 
 00:16:58.950 --> 00:17:00.870
 actual story was or what we
 
 00:17:00.910 --> 00:17:03.312
 can know about the actual story.
 
 00:17:04.445 --> 00:17:06.346
 So what happened to Townsend
 
 00:17:06.426 --> 00:17:08.288
 and Woodhull after the revolution?
 
 00:17:08.989 --> 00:17:10.829
 Woodhull gets married,
 
 00:17:10.869 --> 00:17:12.851
 lives sort of happily ever after as a,
 
 00:17:12.871 --> 00:17:14.571
 you know, semi-prosperous farmer.
 
 00:17:15.732 --> 00:17:16.393
 Townsend,
 
 00:17:16.413 --> 00:17:19.154
 I should show you these pictures
 
 00:17:19.234 --> 00:17:19.654
 of Townsend.
 
 00:17:20.096 --> 00:17:22.936
 This is the only known image of him,
 
 00:17:23.017 --> 00:17:25.459
 but it's done in 1813 by his nephew.
 
 00:17:26.638 --> 00:17:27.640
 What we think he looked like
 
 00:17:27.700 --> 00:17:30.061
 based on that picture and, um,
 
 00:17:32.816 --> 00:17:33.376
 Claire Belgeau,
 
 00:17:33.396 --> 00:17:34.557
 one of the local historians,
 
 00:17:36.058 --> 00:17:37.480
 was the historian at Greenham Hall,
 
 00:17:37.941 --> 00:17:39.020
 had this portrait
 
 00:17:39.061 --> 00:17:39.942
 commissioned from that
 
 00:17:40.021 --> 00:17:45.007
 other drawing and family
 
 00:17:45.626 --> 00:17:46.528
 descriptions of him.
 
 00:17:47.628 --> 00:17:49.570
 He continued to run his
 
 00:17:49.671 --> 00:17:50.632
 father's collection
 
 00:17:52.507 --> 00:17:55.308
 mercantile business from Oyster Bay.
 
 00:17:55.568 --> 00:17:56.269
 When his father died,
 
 00:17:56.289 --> 00:17:58.691
 he took over the business, never married.
 
 00:17:59.050 --> 00:17:59.652
 He was a quiet,
 
 00:17:59.692 --> 00:18:00.612
 very kind of depressive
 
 00:18:00.672 --> 00:18:06.016
 personality described by family members.
 
 00:18:06.115 --> 00:18:08.917
 So he basically became the
 
 00:18:08.958 --> 00:18:10.439
 head of the family and ran
 
 00:18:10.459 --> 00:18:12.380
 the business until he died in the 1800s.
 
 00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:12.599
 Okay, good.
 
 00:18:17.170 --> 00:18:17.349
 Now,
 
 00:18:17.609 --> 00:18:20.352
 the first real fictional account of this,
 
 00:18:20.451 --> 00:18:20.711
 I think,
 
 00:18:20.731 --> 00:18:21.971
 that I know of is James Fenimore
 
 00:18:21.991 --> 00:18:23.472
 Cooper's novel, The Spy.
 
 00:18:24.554 --> 00:18:26.334
 And he has this character
 
 00:18:26.413 --> 00:18:27.795
 much later in life who's
 
 00:18:27.835 --> 00:18:29.655
 despised by because no one
 
 00:18:29.695 --> 00:18:30.957
 knew he had been doing this.
 
 00:18:31.017 --> 00:18:32.978
 They thought he was a Tory,
 
 00:18:33.657 --> 00:18:34.458
 but actually he had been
 
 00:18:34.498 --> 00:18:35.519
 conveying information.
 
 00:18:36.739 --> 00:18:36.880
 Now,
 
 00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:38.799
 you mentioned that Long Island really
 
 00:18:38.859 --> 00:18:40.441
 had a lot of Tories in
 
 00:18:40.461 --> 00:18:41.961
 Setauket and these other towns.
 
 00:18:42.375 --> 00:18:43.337
 What happens to these
 
 00:18:43.397 --> 00:18:44.359
 communities after the
 
 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:45.221
 revolution that have been
 
 00:18:45.241 --> 00:18:47.126
 torn apart by this division?
 
 00:18:47.980 --> 00:18:49.241
 Yeah.
 
 00:18:49.362 --> 00:18:50.682
 The New York legislature,
 
 00:18:51.123 --> 00:18:52.042
 even before the war ends,
 
 00:18:52.063 --> 00:18:52.963
 starts passing all these
 
 00:18:53.023 --> 00:18:55.305
 laws to tax or confiscate
 
 00:18:55.345 --> 00:18:56.625
 property of the loyalists.
 
 00:18:57.685 --> 00:18:59.106
 It did happen a bit in Suffolk,
 
 00:18:59.146 --> 00:19:01.407
 which was more patriotic than Queens,
 
 00:19:02.448 --> 00:19:04.088
 where it was Queens was
 
 00:19:04.128 --> 00:19:05.990
 more loyalist than patriots.
 
 00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:07.790
 So there really didn't there
 
 00:19:07.810 --> 00:19:08.791
 really wasn't a lot of
 
 00:19:09.372 --> 00:19:11.732
 retribution by the state or
 
 00:19:11.813 --> 00:19:13.374
 even neighbor against neighbor.
 
 00:19:13.493 --> 00:19:14.815
 Suffolk County got a little more.
 
 00:19:17.234 --> 00:19:19.096
 But I mean, basically people,
 
 00:19:19.175 --> 00:19:20.736
 I think after seven years of war,
 
 00:19:21.615 --> 00:19:22.476
 wanted to get back to
 
 00:19:23.316 --> 00:19:24.997
 normal as best as they could.
 
 00:19:26.217 --> 00:19:27.136
 Interesting is Long Island
 
 00:19:27.176 --> 00:19:28.257
 was occupied by the British
 
 00:19:28.317 --> 00:19:29.297
 longer than any other place
 
 00:19:29.317 --> 00:19:30.077
 in the country.
 
 00:19:31.897 --> 00:19:32.877
 Even after they abandoned
 
 00:19:32.897 --> 00:19:34.718
 the South and then they
 
 00:19:34.738 --> 00:19:35.898
 were leaving New York City,
 
 00:19:35.959 --> 00:19:37.919
 they had troops on Long
 
 00:19:37.999 --> 00:19:39.598
 Island for several weeks
 
 00:19:39.679 --> 00:19:41.460
 after the evacuation day in
 
 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:42.980
 the city because they wanted to make sure
 
 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:44.582
 the loyalists would be
 
 00:19:44.662 --> 00:19:46.163
 safely evacuated to Canada
 
 00:19:46.183 --> 00:19:47.326
 or wherever they were going to go.
 
 00:19:47.346 --> 00:19:50.652
 So it was interesting.
 
 00:19:50.873 --> 00:19:51.994
 It was more than seven years
 
 00:19:52.115 --> 00:19:52.976
 under the British rule.
 
 00:19:52.996 --> 00:19:53.056
 Wow.
 
 00:19:53.616 --> 00:19:53.917
 Wow.
 
 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:56.061
 And were a lot evacuated at
 
 00:19:56.102 --> 00:19:56.603
 the end of the war?
 
 00:19:57.512 --> 00:20:00.134
 thousands, there was fleets of ships.
 
 00:20:01.115 --> 00:20:03.037
 One of them was actually
 
 00:20:03.636 --> 00:20:04.317
 under the command of
 
 00:20:04.357 --> 00:20:05.218
 Colonel Simcoe from the
 
 00:20:05.238 --> 00:20:06.318
 Queen's Rangers who spent
 
 00:20:06.338 --> 00:20:07.900
 much of the war several
 
 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:09.361
 times headquartered in Oyster Bay.
 
 00:20:10.500 --> 00:20:12.182
 He brought a fleet of ships
 
 00:20:12.281 --> 00:20:14.223
 to found what is now Toronto.
 
 00:20:15.684 --> 00:20:17.865
 Because he was an abolitionist in founding,
 
 00:20:17.925 --> 00:20:18.686
 he made sure that there
 
 00:20:18.707 --> 00:20:20.428
 would never be slaves in Toronto.
 
 00:20:21.028 --> 00:20:22.028
 So every year they have a
 
 00:20:22.068 --> 00:20:23.308
 Simcoe Day to honor him for
 
 00:20:23.348 --> 00:20:24.569
 founding the city and also
 
 00:20:24.589 --> 00:20:25.351
 for making sure that
 
 00:20:26.474 --> 00:20:28.017
 There would never be slaves in that city.
 
 00:20:28.718 --> 00:20:29.077
 Amazing.
 
 00:20:29.417 --> 00:20:30.819
 We're talking with Bill Blyer,
 
 00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:31.539
 author of George
 
 00:20:31.580 --> 00:20:33.623
 Washington's Long Island Spy Ring,
 
 00:20:33.702 --> 00:20:35.664
 a history and tour guide,
 
 00:20:36.665 --> 00:20:37.747
 which not only shows us
 
 00:20:37.807 --> 00:20:39.067
 where things happened,
 
 00:20:39.488 --> 00:20:41.049
 but it does tell the real
 
 00:20:41.089 --> 00:20:42.391
 story of what was going on
 
 00:20:42.471 --> 00:20:44.292
 with the Culper Spy Ring.
 
 00:20:44.353 --> 00:20:45.894
 Why were they called the Culper Spy Ring?
 
 00:20:47.189 --> 00:20:48.290
 We don't know for sure.
 
 00:20:48.590 --> 00:20:50.432
 The best guess is that
 
 00:20:50.972 --> 00:20:52.174
 because George Washington
 
 00:20:52.815 --> 00:20:53.955
 was a surveyor when he was
 
 00:20:54.037 --> 00:20:56.898
 a teenager in Culpeper County, Virginia,
 
 00:20:57.539 --> 00:20:59.843
 that when they decided to use spy names,
 
 00:21:00.242 --> 00:21:01.344
 initially the three main
 
 00:21:01.384 --> 00:21:04.728
 players took code names.
 
 00:21:07.897 --> 00:21:10.377
 Woodhull became Samuel Culper Sr.
 
 00:21:11.278 --> 00:21:16.118
 and Talmadge became John Bolton.
 
 00:21:16.138 --> 00:21:19.019
 And then eventually when
 
 00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:21.961
 Woodhull recruits Townsend in the city,
 
 00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:23.240
 he becomes Culper Jr.
 
 00:21:24.060 --> 00:21:25.300
 We figured that either
 
 00:21:25.540 --> 00:21:26.580
 Washington suggested
 
 00:21:26.641 --> 00:21:27.862
 because of his memories of
 
 00:21:28.061 --> 00:21:30.261
 being in Culper County or
 
 00:21:30.582 --> 00:21:31.801
 Talmadge who knew about
 
 00:21:31.862 --> 00:21:33.163
 that suggested the name.
 
 00:21:33.482 --> 00:21:34.242
 So it might've been...
 
 00:21:36.644 --> 00:21:38.006
 That made it probably the best guess.
 
 00:21:38.066 --> 00:21:38.705
 And then they just sort of
 
 00:21:38.746 --> 00:21:40.406
 shortened it from Culpeper to Culper.
 
 00:21:41.468 --> 00:21:42.807
 But none of the surviving
 
 00:21:42.847 --> 00:21:44.388
 letters explain where the name came from.
 
 00:21:44.409 --> 00:21:46.710
 And there's almost nothing
 
 00:21:46.750 --> 00:21:48.030
 written by the participants
 
 00:21:48.211 --> 00:21:48.931
 after the war.
 
 00:21:50.172 --> 00:21:51.271
 Woodhull never wrote a word.
 
 00:21:51.692 --> 00:21:53.334
 Talmadge wrote a memoir just
 
 00:21:53.354 --> 00:21:54.134
 for his children.
 
 00:21:54.554 --> 00:21:56.275
 That was not meant to be
 
 00:21:56.335 --> 00:21:57.796
 published and only wrote
 
 00:21:58.056 --> 00:21:59.436
 two sentences about the spy
 
 00:21:59.457 --> 00:22:00.957
 ring and didn't explain the name.
 
 00:22:01.637 --> 00:22:02.178
 Wow, wow.
 
 00:22:03.224 --> 00:22:04.932
 So Townsend is in New York.
 
 00:22:04.991 --> 00:22:06.237
 He's a merchant in New York
 
 00:22:06.457 --> 00:22:07.602
 during this whole entire time.
 
 00:22:08.336 --> 00:22:08.955
 Pretty much, yeah,
 
 00:22:09.076 --> 00:22:10.957
 except the one exception
 
 00:22:11.057 --> 00:22:14.698
 was when Benedict Arnold switches sides,
 
 00:22:14.778 --> 00:22:15.518
 one of the first things he
 
 00:22:15.557 --> 00:22:17.519
 does is organize an effort
 
 00:22:17.558 --> 00:22:19.199
 to capture and uncover the
 
 00:22:19.239 --> 00:22:20.400
 spies operating in New York,
 
 00:22:20.420 --> 00:22:21.180
 because it's pretty well
 
 00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:22.079
 known it's happening.
 
 00:22:23.020 --> 00:22:24.201
 They arrest 30 people,
 
 00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:25.441
 including a tailor named
 
 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:26.561
 Hercules Mulligan,
 
 00:22:27.961 --> 00:22:29.803
 who saved George Washington
 
 00:22:29.843 --> 00:22:30.522
 from capture and
 
 00:22:30.563 --> 00:22:32.023
 assassination at least twice.
 
 00:22:33.523 --> 00:22:34.663
 But he was working.
 
 00:22:34.804 --> 00:22:36.265
 He he knew Townsend.
 
 00:22:36.285 --> 00:22:38.365
 He knew the spy ring operation,
 
 00:22:38.845 --> 00:22:40.085
 but was working independently,
 
 00:22:40.546 --> 00:22:41.645
 sending information north
 
 00:22:42.306 --> 00:22:44.165
 through the Bronx with his spy.
 
 00:22:44.185 --> 00:22:45.747
 I'm sorry, with his slave.
 
 00:22:47.166 --> 00:22:48.326
 He was captured and somehow
 
 00:22:48.846 --> 00:22:49.988
 talked his way out of being
 
 00:22:50.048 --> 00:22:51.788
 hanged or had enough people
 
 00:22:51.867 --> 00:22:53.567
 vouch for him because he
 
 00:22:53.587 --> 00:22:56.108
 was making uniforms for British soldiers.
 
 00:22:56.949 --> 00:22:57.990
 He befriended a lot of them.
 
 00:22:58.029 --> 00:22:59.289
 That's how we got his information.
 
 00:23:00.310 --> 00:23:01.192
 So I think a lot of them
 
 00:23:01.251 --> 00:23:03.292
 spoke up for him and got
 
 00:23:03.393 --> 00:23:04.292
 Arnold to release him.
 
 00:23:05.594 --> 00:23:07.194
 But Townsend was so unnerved
 
 00:23:07.255 --> 00:23:09.135
 by this effort to uncover
 
 00:23:09.155 --> 00:23:10.176
 the spies that he goes back
 
 00:23:10.217 --> 00:23:11.096
 to Oyster Bay and stops
 
 00:23:11.136 --> 00:23:12.117
 spying for nine months,
 
 00:23:12.597 --> 00:23:14.358
 which angered Washington to
 
 00:23:14.378 --> 00:23:14.939
 the point where he
 
 00:23:14.979 --> 00:23:16.880
 basically sort of declared
 
 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:18.922
 the spy ring dead for the duration.
 
 00:23:20.001 --> 00:23:21.083
 And when they came back into
 
 00:23:21.123 --> 00:23:22.023
 operation later,
 
 00:23:22.765 --> 00:23:24.326
 he was pretty sour on them
 
 00:23:24.366 --> 00:23:25.288
 for the rest of the war,
 
 00:23:25.928 --> 00:23:26.888
 even though Townsend was
 
 00:23:26.929 --> 00:23:27.869
 the one who told them the
 
 00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:28.530
 British were going to
 
 00:23:28.550 --> 00:23:30.211
 accept a peace treaty after
 
 00:23:30.251 --> 00:23:30.952
 a year and a half of
 
 00:23:31.353 --> 00:23:32.654
 inaction and no battles.
 
 00:23:34.056 --> 00:23:36.557
 Well, and are these guys, by the way,
 
 00:23:36.617 --> 00:23:37.960
 compensated by Washington
 
 00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:39.161
 for their intelligences?
 
 00:23:40.035 --> 00:23:40.935
 uh none of them were ever
 
 00:23:40.976 --> 00:23:42.276
 paid uh because that they
 
 00:23:42.296 --> 00:23:43.016
 didn't want to be paid
 
 00:23:43.056 --> 00:23:44.376
 because becoming paid made
 
 00:23:44.396 --> 00:23:46.157
 them like a judas right at
 
 00:23:46.178 --> 00:23:47.959
 the time even spying for
 
 00:23:48.019 --> 00:23:49.880
 free uh was considered you
 
 00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:50.700
 know one of the lowest
 
 00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:52.260
 forms of humanity so uh
 
 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:54.060
 part of the trouble they
 
 00:23:54.101 --> 00:23:55.781
 had getting spies was you
 
 00:23:55.801 --> 00:23:56.663
 know the young gentlemen
 
 00:23:56.722 --> 00:23:57.962
 intelligent young officers
 
 00:23:58.002 --> 00:23:59.463
 they would want like a
 
 00:23:59.483 --> 00:24:01.224
 nathan hale didn't want to
 
 00:24:01.244 --> 00:24:02.144
 do it because it would ruin
 
 00:24:02.164 --> 00:24:03.326
 their reputation for life
 
 00:24:03.346 --> 00:24:05.185
 uh hale overlooked that and
 
 00:24:05.567 --> 00:24:07.247
 turned out to be a pretty bad spy but
 
 00:24:09.768 --> 00:24:11.648
 They were never paid on purpose,
 
 00:24:12.048 --> 00:24:13.528
 but they did get paid for their expenses.
 
 00:24:13.608 --> 00:24:15.109
 So they were renting horses.
 
 00:24:15.170 --> 00:24:17.210
 They were paying for lodging in the city.
 
 00:24:17.250 --> 00:24:20.750
 They were buying paper, ink, other things.
 
 00:24:20.951 --> 00:24:22.730
 And periodically Talmadge
 
 00:24:22.770 --> 00:24:25.251
 would collect accounts from the players,
 
 00:24:25.291 --> 00:24:26.231
 send it off to Washington,
 
 00:24:26.251 --> 00:24:27.192
 who would get them repaid
 
 00:24:27.232 --> 00:24:28.032
 for their outlays.
 
 00:24:29.292 --> 00:24:31.433
 Now, aside from Hercules Mulligan,
 
 00:24:31.473 --> 00:24:33.233
 these 30 people arrested
 
 00:24:33.314 --> 00:24:34.834
 for espionage when Arnold
 
 00:24:34.913 --> 00:24:37.154
 comes to New York, what happens to them?
 
 00:24:38.816 --> 00:24:39.277
 I don't know.
 
 00:24:39.297 --> 00:24:40.458
 I've never seen an account.
 
 00:24:40.518 --> 00:24:42.400
 We know Mulligan was
 
 00:24:42.420 --> 00:24:44.162
 released and went right back to spying.
 
 00:24:44.182 --> 00:24:47.224
 I imagine if they had a good case,
 
 00:24:47.244 --> 00:24:48.506
 they'd probably hang some of them.
 
 00:24:48.645 --> 00:24:49.906
 And if they couldn't, they released them.
 
 00:24:49.926 --> 00:24:52.390
 But I've never seen any kind of follow up,
 
 00:24:52.450 --> 00:24:53.570
 you know, from the British records.
 
 00:24:54.211 --> 00:24:54.391
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:55.071 --> 00:24:57.013
 Of course, the mysterious agent 355.
 
 00:24:57.634 --> 00:24:59.296
 And according to that one
 
 00:24:59.336 --> 00:25:00.376
 account you mentioned is on
 
 00:25:00.416 --> 00:25:01.679
 a prison hulk in New York.
 
 00:25:01.778 --> 00:25:02.138
 I mean, there.
 
 00:25:02.846 --> 00:25:04.811
 these great stories about
 
 00:25:04.873 --> 00:25:07.300
 these individuals that
 
 00:25:07.320 --> 00:25:08.324
 you're trying to piece together.
 
 00:25:10.645 --> 00:25:11.586
 uh nathaniel philbrook's
 
 00:25:11.626 --> 00:25:12.688
 book about washington he
 
 00:25:12.728 --> 00:25:14.009
 does have him making a trip
 
 00:25:14.068 --> 00:25:15.390
 to long island as part of
 
 00:25:15.450 --> 00:25:17.132
 his national tour to see
 
 00:25:17.211 --> 00:25:18.772
 some of these individuals
 
 00:25:19.213 --> 00:25:21.195
 um is that true or did you
 
 00:25:21.236 --> 00:25:23.938
 find it no no uh and and
 
 00:25:23.958 --> 00:25:25.599
 phil philbrook who I admire
 
 00:25:25.660 --> 00:25:26.539
 read all of his books when
 
 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:28.682
 I read his accounting of
 
 00:25:28.923 --> 00:25:30.203
 george washington's 790
 
 00:25:30.203 --> 00:25:31.704
 trip I groaned and so did
 
 00:25:31.724 --> 00:25:32.526
 the other historians in
 
 00:25:32.546 --> 00:25:34.528
 long island because this is
 
 00:25:34.567 --> 00:25:35.488
 another one of these myths
 
 00:25:36.489 --> 00:25:38.069
 that's got wide circulation,
 
 00:25:39.369 --> 00:25:40.509
 Philbrook didn't do his homework.
 
 00:25:40.589 --> 00:25:41.210
 I mean, my book,
 
 00:25:41.289 --> 00:25:45.111
 I tackle that trip and explain it.
 
 00:25:45.612 --> 00:25:47.991
 For your listeners briefly, 1789, 1799, no,
 
 00:25:47.991 --> 00:25:54.713
 1790. 1790.
 
 00:25:54.713 --> 00:25:58.415
 I've got to get the year before 1790,
 
 00:25:58.415 --> 00:25:58.997
 whatever that is.
 
 00:26:00.278 --> 00:26:00.577
 Thank you, 89.
 
 00:26:01.878 --> 00:26:04.059
 He takes a long trip to New
 
 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:05.540
 England at the suggestion
 
 00:26:05.560 --> 00:26:06.622
 of Alexander Hamilton,
 
 00:26:06.662 --> 00:26:08.083
 who's the Secretary of the Treasury.
 
 00:26:08.843 --> 00:26:10.784
 Hamilton says, Congress is in session.
 
 00:26:10.824 --> 00:26:12.726
 You should go out and unify the colonies,
 
 00:26:13.145 --> 00:26:15.207
 show the flag, let people see you,
 
 00:26:15.267 --> 00:26:16.248
 get the public mood.
 
 00:26:17.167 --> 00:26:18.509
 Washington says it's a great idea.
 
 00:26:18.548 --> 00:26:19.549
 So he goes for several weeks,
 
 00:26:19.609 --> 00:26:20.590
 travels around New England,
 
 00:26:21.351 --> 00:26:22.991
 keeps a personal diary of
 
 00:26:23.172 --> 00:26:24.794
 who he sees what who fits
 
 00:26:24.834 --> 00:26:26.515
 him what he has for dinner
 
 00:26:26.555 --> 00:26:27.855
 where he stays you know and
 
 00:26:27.895 --> 00:26:28.957
 also because he's a farmer
 
 00:26:29.597 --> 00:26:31.219
 what the farm uh farmers
 
 00:26:31.278 --> 00:26:32.259
 are growing what the soil
 
 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:34.141
 conditions are so the next
 
 00:26:34.181 --> 00:26:37.083
 year uh in the uh spring of
 
 00:26:37.083 --> 00:26:38.644
 1790 decides to do the same
 
 00:26:38.664 --> 00:26:40.566
 thing on long island he's
 
 00:26:40.605 --> 00:26:41.926
 only been on long island uh
 
 00:26:42.086 --> 00:26:43.909
 once in his life in august of
 
 00:26:43.909 --> 00:26:46.618
 1776 for the Battle of Long
 
 00:26:46.699 --> 00:26:48.059
 Island and has never been back since.
 
 00:26:48.660 --> 00:26:49.480
 You can understand why he
 
 00:26:49.520 --> 00:26:50.260
 wouldn't want to come back.
 
 00:26:50.280 --> 00:26:50.661
 Yeah.
 
 00:26:51.162 --> 00:26:52.602
 But either it was either his
 
 00:26:52.663 --> 00:26:53.343
 idea or Hamilton's.
 
 00:26:53.383 --> 00:26:54.282
 He decides to go to Long
 
 00:26:54.323 --> 00:26:55.304
 Island for five days,
 
 00:26:56.144 --> 00:26:57.424
 travels out the South Shore
 
 00:26:57.484 --> 00:27:00.507
 halfway down the island, crosses north,
 
 00:27:00.527 --> 00:27:01.928
 stays in Setauket at the
 
 00:27:01.968 --> 00:27:03.548
 tavern owned by Austin Rowe,
 
 00:27:04.088 --> 00:27:05.109
 who was the chief courier
 
 00:27:05.190 --> 00:27:06.891
 for the spy ring during the war,
 
 00:27:07.891 --> 00:27:09.172
 then travels west back to
 
 00:27:09.192 --> 00:27:10.232
 the city for five days.
 
 00:27:11.032 --> 00:27:12.634
 So based on the fact solely
 
 00:27:12.674 --> 00:27:14.016
 based on the fact that he
 
 00:27:14.056 --> 00:27:15.376
 stays at Western Rose Tavern,
 
 00:27:16.018 --> 00:27:17.098
 a lot of historians
 
 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:21.222
 speculate as fact that he
 
 00:27:21.262 --> 00:27:22.124
 goes to Long Island to
 
 00:27:22.163 --> 00:27:23.565
 thank the members of the spy ring.
 
 00:27:24.405 --> 00:27:25.386
 It doesn't make sense for a
 
 00:27:25.446 --> 00:27:26.147
 lot of reasons.
 
 00:27:28.153 --> 00:27:29.473
 He stays at Austin Rowe's house.
 
 00:27:29.554 --> 00:27:30.255
 In his private diary,
 
 00:27:30.275 --> 00:27:31.434
 he says it was a nice tavern,
 
 00:27:31.454 --> 00:27:32.596
 had a good dinner.
 
 00:27:32.996 --> 00:27:35.036
 The locals he met were nice.
 
 00:27:35.056 --> 00:27:36.116
 Doesn't mention Austin Rowe
 
 00:27:36.156 --> 00:27:38.278
 by name because Austin Rowe
 
 00:27:38.577 --> 00:27:40.097
 happened to own property
 
 00:27:40.877 --> 00:27:42.038
 down in Patchogue where he
 
 00:27:42.078 --> 00:27:43.098
 stayed the night before.
 
 00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:45.039
 He's in Patchogue.
 
 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:46.279
 when he learns that
 
 00:27:46.339 --> 00:27:47.280
 Washington had stayed in
 
 00:27:47.300 --> 00:27:48.221
 Patchogue that night and
 
 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:49.141
 was now on his way to his
 
 00:27:49.181 --> 00:27:51.541
 tavern for the next night, Roe,
 
 00:27:51.582 --> 00:27:53.323
 who went 55 miles back and
 
 00:27:53.363 --> 00:27:55.202
 forth successfully without
 
 00:27:55.222 --> 00:27:56.443
 being captured or injured,
 
 00:27:57.003 --> 00:27:59.005
 is thrown from his horse, breaks his leg.
 
 00:27:59.025 --> 00:27:59.984
 Oh, my goodness.
 
 00:28:00.305 --> 00:28:02.006
 And we don't know exactly
 
 00:28:02.046 --> 00:28:03.185
 what happens to him after that.
 
 00:28:03.266 --> 00:28:04.586
 All the presumption is he would go
 
 00:28:05.487 --> 00:28:06.708
 back to Patchogue to see a
 
 00:28:06.728 --> 00:28:07.969
 doctor because Patchogue is
 
 00:28:07.989 --> 00:28:08.929
 a much bigger community
 
 00:28:08.989 --> 00:28:10.269
 than the little tiny Setauket.
 
 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:14.913
 So if he had gotten to his tavern,
 
 00:28:14.953 --> 00:28:16.654
 met Washington, hosted Washington,
 
 00:28:17.234 --> 00:28:18.536
 Washington in his private diary,
 
 00:28:18.556 --> 00:28:19.676
 I'm sure would have said something.
 
 00:28:19.717 --> 00:28:20.477
 But he doesn't mention
 
 00:28:20.517 --> 00:28:22.117
 Austin Rowe other than to say,
 
 00:28:22.198 --> 00:28:23.219
 I stayed at his tavern.
 
 00:28:24.220 --> 00:28:25.079
 The other reason it doesn't
 
 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:26.862
 make sense is he stays in
 
 00:28:26.922 --> 00:28:28.843
 Oyster Bay on the next night.
 
 00:28:30.503 --> 00:28:31.865
 Robert Townsend is living
 
 00:28:31.905 --> 00:28:33.406
 there in the family home,
 
 00:28:33.847 --> 00:28:35.588
 which is the biggest, most prosperous,
 
 00:28:35.650 --> 00:28:37.550
 most well-known home in the
 
 00:28:37.652 --> 00:28:38.392
 Oyster Bay area.
 
 00:28:39.473 --> 00:28:40.515
 Washington doesn't stay there.
 
 00:28:40.555 --> 00:28:42.856
 He stays down the road at
 
 00:28:42.916 --> 00:28:44.338
 the home of somebody who's
 
 00:28:44.398 --> 00:28:46.181
 actually a militia officer who becomes
 
 00:28:48.461 --> 00:28:49.442
 the militia sort of flips
 
 00:28:49.461 --> 00:28:50.342
 sides after the Battle of
 
 00:28:50.362 --> 00:28:51.701
 Long Island to support the British.
 
 00:28:52.222 --> 00:28:53.103
 And that's where the head of
 
 00:28:53.143 --> 00:28:54.943
 that militia is where Washington stays.
 
 00:28:55.663 --> 00:28:57.484
 So if he was going to thank
 
 00:28:57.704 --> 00:28:59.144
 the members of the spy ring,
 
 00:28:59.184 --> 00:29:01.385
 why wouldn't he stay at Townsend's house?
 
 00:29:01.986 --> 00:29:02.987
 The other thing to remember is
 
 00:29:04.287 --> 00:29:04.967
 Early on,
 
 00:29:05.347 --> 00:29:06.768
 Washington wanted to bring
 
 00:29:06.788 --> 00:29:07.887
 Woodhull to headquarters to
 
 00:29:07.928 --> 00:29:09.628
 talk to him and help set up the spy ring.
 
 00:29:10.328 --> 00:29:12.349
 Talmadge and Woodhull talk him out of it.
 
 00:29:12.549 --> 00:29:12.869
 They said,
 
 00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:14.810
 we know there are spies at your
 
 00:29:14.830 --> 00:29:15.191
 headquarters,
 
 00:29:15.250 --> 00:29:16.590
 including in your personal
 
 00:29:16.891 --> 00:29:18.852
 presidential army guard.
 
 00:29:19.751 --> 00:29:20.731
 So Washington says, yeah,
 
 00:29:20.751 --> 00:29:21.413
 that's a good idea.
 
 00:29:21.492 --> 00:29:23.353
 So he made a point never to
 
 00:29:23.413 --> 00:29:25.054
 know any players in the spy ring.
 
 00:29:26.933 --> 00:29:28.015
 So he never knew who
 
 00:29:28.035 --> 00:29:29.454
 Townsend was or anybody else.
 
 00:29:30.115 --> 00:29:31.375
 And there's no reason or no
 
 00:29:31.455 --> 00:29:32.476
 evidence to show he ever
 
 00:29:32.615 --> 00:29:34.217
 tried to find out or found
 
 00:29:34.277 --> 00:29:35.096
 out after the war.
 
 00:29:35.116 --> 00:29:36.798
 So this is another one of
 
 00:29:36.817 --> 00:29:37.637
 these things where people
 
 00:29:37.678 --> 00:29:38.498
 just take a little bit of
 
 00:29:38.557 --> 00:29:40.838
 fact and create myths from it.
 
 00:29:41.578 --> 00:29:42.138
 It's interesting.
 
 00:29:42.398 --> 00:29:43.579
 We're talking with Bill Blyer,
 
 00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:44.240
 author of George
 
 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.080
 Washington's Long Island Spy Ring,
 
 00:29:46.141 --> 00:29:47.820
 a history and tour guide.
 
 00:29:48.441 --> 00:29:48.760
 And of course,
 
 00:29:48.800 --> 00:29:50.422
 Washington had other spy
 
 00:29:50.481 --> 00:29:53.262
 networks because the war moves around.
 
 00:29:54.198 --> 00:29:57.259
 he would have had a lot more agents.
 
 00:29:57.558 --> 00:29:59.318
 And knowing them, of course,
 
 00:29:59.338 --> 00:30:01.398
 would have been a problem for them.
 
 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:02.839
 As you said,
 
 00:30:02.859 --> 00:30:03.640
 there are spies in his
 
 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:04.759
 headquarters who then would
 
 00:30:04.779 --> 00:30:06.340
 have conveyed who they were.
 
 00:30:06.421 --> 00:30:13.582
 And when Benedict Arnold turns,
 
 00:30:13.662 --> 00:30:16.202
 then he might have known
 
 00:30:16.222 --> 00:30:18.403
 who some of these agents were.
 
 00:30:18.502 --> 00:30:20.282
 So I can see why he would
 
 00:30:20.323 --> 00:30:21.884
 have wanted to keep his distance.
 
 00:30:21.943 --> 00:30:23.344
 So this is fascinating.
 
 00:30:25.013 --> 00:30:26.517
 Now what got you into this story, Bill?
 
 00:30:29.763 --> 00:30:30.565
 This was my...
 
 00:30:32.215 --> 00:30:32.655
 fifth book,
 
 00:30:33.336 --> 00:30:35.957
 and all for the history press
 
 00:30:36.218 --> 00:30:36.998
 based in Charleston.
 
 00:30:38.417 --> 00:30:39.959
 Because of the popularity of TURN,
 
 00:30:41.138 --> 00:30:42.420
 my editor called me up and said,
 
 00:30:42.460 --> 00:30:43.839
 everybody's watching TURN on Netflix.
 
 00:30:43.859 --> 00:30:45.461
 Can you come up with a Culper spy book?
 
 00:30:46.181 --> 00:30:47.862
 My initial reaction was no,
 
 00:30:47.961 --> 00:30:50.563
 because Alexander Rose had
 
 00:30:50.583 --> 00:30:52.022
 done Washington Spies,
 
 00:30:52.083 --> 00:30:53.324
 which was really voluminous.
 
 00:30:53.423 --> 00:30:54.503
 I found a few things I
 
 00:30:55.105 --> 00:30:56.704
 disagree with him as I got
 
 00:30:56.744 --> 00:30:57.505
 into my research,
 
 00:30:57.585 --> 00:31:00.006
 but he's about 99% accurate
 
 00:31:00.046 --> 00:31:00.807
 as far as I can tell.
 
 00:31:02.386 --> 00:31:02.567
 You know,
 
 00:31:02.586 --> 00:31:03.866
 Brian Kilmeade had done a bestseller,
 
 00:31:03.886 --> 00:31:05.468
 which is historical fiction,
 
 00:31:06.067 --> 00:31:07.347
 if you're even kind to it.
 
 00:31:08.688 --> 00:31:09.588
 But there's a lot of other
 
 00:31:09.608 --> 00:31:10.548
 accounts out there going
 
 00:31:10.568 --> 00:31:11.469
 back to Pennypacker.
 
 00:31:11.989 --> 00:31:12.989
 And I basically said, well,
 
 00:31:13.009 --> 00:31:13.888
 what am I going to add?
 
 00:31:15.049 --> 00:31:15.569
 Then I came up,
 
 00:31:16.470 --> 00:31:17.670
 but this was suggested to
 
 00:31:17.710 --> 00:31:18.390
 me by my editor.
 
 00:31:18.410 --> 00:31:18.970
 I said no.
 
 00:31:19.891 --> 00:31:21.871
 Then former Congressman Steve Israel,
 
 00:31:22.651 --> 00:31:23.351
 who was the head of the
 
 00:31:23.490 --> 00:31:24.652
 Democratic Congressional
 
 00:31:24.692 --> 00:31:25.471
 Committee and then later
 
 00:31:25.491 --> 00:31:26.092
 become president,
 
 00:31:27.172 --> 00:31:28.212
 was leading a think tank at
 
 00:31:28.333 --> 00:31:29.673
 Long Island University, called me up,
 
 00:31:29.693 --> 00:31:31.654
 said, come for coffee, and said, you know,
 
 00:31:31.674 --> 00:31:32.996
 the spy trail has been
 
 00:31:33.016 --> 00:31:33.856
 created by the state,
 
 00:31:34.076 --> 00:31:34.896
 but we could really use a
 
 00:31:34.917 --> 00:31:35.837
 book to go with it to
 
 00:31:35.917 --> 00:31:37.759
 publicize all these sites and the story.
 
 00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:39.861
 So I explained to him why it
 
 00:31:40.320 --> 00:31:41.402
 didn't make sense and left.
 
 00:31:41.442 --> 00:31:42.742
 And then on my ride home,
 
 00:31:43.343 --> 00:31:44.403
 I had the idea of combining
 
 00:31:44.443 --> 00:31:45.525
 the story with the tour
 
 00:31:45.565 --> 00:31:46.724
 guide because nobody had
 
 00:31:46.965 --> 00:31:47.746
 ever written about all
 
 00:31:47.786 --> 00:31:49.386
 these properties that you
 
 00:31:49.406 --> 00:31:51.449
 could visit in sites where
 
 00:31:51.489 --> 00:31:53.130
 battles were or the spy
 
 00:31:53.190 --> 00:31:54.371
 operation was working.
 
 00:31:55.090 --> 00:31:56.271
 So I called him back and said, you know,
 
 00:31:56.291 --> 00:31:56.892
 I got an idea.
 
 00:31:56.971 --> 00:31:57.531
 And he liked it.
 
 00:31:57.571 --> 00:31:58.492
 And I called my publisher.
 
 00:31:58.732 --> 00:31:59.232
 He liked it.
 
 00:32:00.212 --> 00:32:01.294
 So I started researching.
 
 00:32:01.394 --> 00:32:03.755
 And then I started out
 
 00:32:03.795 --> 00:32:04.575
 talking to the local
 
 00:32:04.595 --> 00:32:06.175
 historians in Oyster Bay and Setauket,
 
 00:32:06.195 --> 00:32:07.836
 who I knew and respected,
 
 00:32:09.076 --> 00:32:09.978
 got the story from them.
 
 00:32:10.018 --> 00:32:10.758
 And then I'd go back and
 
 00:32:10.798 --> 00:32:11.938
 compare it to what Kill Me
 
 00:32:12.038 --> 00:32:13.078
 and the others had written.
 
 00:32:14.439 --> 00:32:15.920
 And rather than just saying, well,
 
 00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:17.060
 this is what really happened,
 
 00:32:17.080 --> 00:32:18.101
 I decided to do this
 
 00:32:18.181 --> 00:32:20.122
 analytical book telling
 
 00:32:20.142 --> 00:32:21.182
 what everybody was saying
 
 00:32:21.201 --> 00:32:22.002
 and then pick it apart.
 
 00:32:23.855 --> 00:32:25.076
 So that makes it unique.
 
 00:32:25.135 --> 00:32:26.596
 Both halves are unique at this point.
 
 00:32:26.616 --> 00:32:27.616
 Right.
 
 00:32:28.196 --> 00:32:28.597
 It really is.
 
 00:32:29.298 --> 00:32:30.838
 So Long Island during this
 
 00:32:31.239 --> 00:32:33.500
 seven year occupation, as you mentioned,
 
 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:35.740
 you have these patriots and
 
 00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:36.882
 then you have loyalists.
 
 00:32:36.902 --> 00:32:39.782
 So what was life like in
 
 00:32:39.823 --> 00:32:41.063
 this place you know so well
 
 00:32:41.103 --> 00:32:42.084
 during these seven years?
 
 00:32:43.405 --> 00:32:44.288
 It was pretty miserable.
 
 00:32:44.307 --> 00:32:46.349
 And ultimately it was
 
 00:32:46.390 --> 00:32:47.090
 miserable even for the
 
 00:32:47.151 --> 00:32:50.214
 Tories because the British
 
 00:32:50.256 --> 00:32:52.858
 and the Hessians couldn't really tell
 
 00:32:54.208 --> 00:32:55.608
 without a lot of work uh who
 
 00:32:55.628 --> 00:32:56.470
 was a loyalist who was a
 
 00:32:56.509 --> 00:32:57.871
 tory right so they ended up
 
 00:32:57.911 --> 00:32:58.771
 treating everybody pretty
 
 00:32:58.791 --> 00:32:59.932
 badly they they needed
 
 00:32:59.991 --> 00:33:01.032
 firewood they needed you
 
 00:33:01.113 --> 00:33:02.673
 know grain and livestock
 
 00:33:02.714 --> 00:33:04.796
 from long island to feed
 
 00:33:04.816 --> 00:33:05.777
 the troops in the city uh
 
 00:33:06.517 --> 00:33:07.538
 which is why right after
 
 00:33:07.577 --> 00:33:08.519
 the battle of long island
 
 00:33:08.538 --> 00:33:09.579
 uh general howe made a
 
 00:33:09.619 --> 00:33:10.440
 point of occupying the
 
 00:33:10.460 --> 00:33:11.760
 whole island because that
 
 00:33:11.780 --> 00:33:12.521
 was going to be his chief
 
 00:33:12.541 --> 00:33:14.343
 supply point for the troops
 
 00:33:14.383 --> 00:33:16.404
 in the city uh so you know
 
 00:33:16.424 --> 00:33:17.325
 they would send out forage
 
 00:33:17.365 --> 00:33:18.286
 parties and they would be
 
 00:33:18.306 --> 00:33:21.048
 uh taking grain uh firewood
 
 00:33:21.087 --> 00:33:22.930
 taking down barns to you know have wood
 
 00:33:24.573 --> 00:33:25.474
 hurting livestock in the
 
 00:33:25.515 --> 00:33:27.277
 city and they would send
 
 00:33:27.357 --> 00:33:28.700
 out proclamations demanding
 
 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:29.441
 that the residents of
 
 00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:30.442
 Suffolk County send X
 
 00:33:30.481 --> 00:33:31.903
 amount of wagons of grain,
 
 00:33:32.464 --> 00:33:33.446
 X amount of livestock to
 
 00:33:33.487 --> 00:33:35.209
 the city under penalty of
 
 00:33:36.211 --> 00:33:37.732
 the military coming to make
 
 00:33:37.772 --> 00:33:38.894
 their lives even more miserable.
 
 00:33:40.115 --> 00:33:42.538
 So the Tories initially supported that.
 
 00:33:42.577 --> 00:33:45.500
 They would voluntarily meet these quotas.
 
 00:33:46.300 --> 00:33:46.881
 But then when they couldn't
 
 00:33:46.901 --> 00:33:47.442
 meet the quotas,
 
 00:33:47.461 --> 00:33:48.722
 they'd send out forage parties.
 
 00:33:48.782 --> 00:33:50.423
 They would take what they wanted.
 
 00:33:50.503 --> 00:33:52.286
 Sometimes they would give a receipt,
 
 00:33:52.685 --> 00:33:53.486
 sometimes not.
 
 00:33:53.606 --> 00:33:55.788
 And when the receipts were
 
 00:33:57.088 --> 00:33:58.549
 tried to cash in at the end of the war,
 
 00:33:58.569 --> 00:34:00.551
 the British ignored them.
 
 00:34:00.571 --> 00:34:02.894
 So it was pretty miserable.
 
 00:34:02.913 --> 00:34:03.153
 A lot of the...
 
 00:34:05.630 --> 00:34:07.592
 The soldiers were quartered
 
 00:34:07.672 --> 00:34:09.293
 in people's houses, in their barns,
 
 00:34:10.032 --> 00:34:11.153
 somewhere on their property.
 
 00:34:11.173 --> 00:34:14.135
 And it was pretty bleak.
 
 00:34:14.856 --> 00:34:16.056
 They brought disease.
 
 00:34:16.077 --> 00:34:17.018
 A lot of the Long Island
 
 00:34:17.057 --> 00:34:17.898
 residents had never been
 
 00:34:17.918 --> 00:34:19.719
 exposed to smallpox and
 
 00:34:19.739 --> 00:34:20.780
 these other diseases that
 
 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:21.780
 the soldiers carried.
 
 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:23.762
 There were a lot of reports
 
 00:34:23.862 --> 00:34:25.043
 of rape of women.
 
 00:34:25.063 --> 00:34:27.264
 Their husbands had fled to Connecticut.
 
 00:34:28.405 --> 00:34:30.306
 The Continental Congress
 
 00:34:30.346 --> 00:34:31.666
 actually did a report on
 
 00:34:31.706 --> 00:34:33.628
 this sexual assault by the
 
 00:34:33.648 --> 00:34:34.548
 British and the Hessians.
 
 00:34:36.885 --> 00:34:38.286
 We're talking with Bill Blyer,
 
 00:34:39.126 --> 00:34:39.927
 author of George
 
 00:34:39.967 --> 00:34:41.827
 Washington's Long Island Spy Ring,
 
 00:34:41.927 --> 00:34:43.347
 a history and tour guide.
 
 00:34:43.367 --> 00:34:44.289
 This is your fifth book.
 
 00:34:44.349 --> 00:34:45.509
 So what are you,
 
 00:34:45.608 --> 00:34:46.789
 are you working on a new book now?
 
 00:34:48.230 --> 00:34:49.570
 I wrote a book on the
 
 00:34:49.610 --> 00:34:50.411
 sinking of the steamboat
 
 00:34:50.451 --> 00:34:53.413
 Lexington in Long Island in 1840.
 
 00:34:53.413 --> 00:34:54.632
 The worst maritime accident
 
 00:34:54.793 --> 00:34:57.373
 on Long Island history was book six.
 
 00:34:57.514 --> 00:34:58.355
 I'm working on
 
 00:34:59.577 --> 00:35:00.518
 a book about the Roosevelt
 
 00:35:00.538 --> 00:35:02.298
 family's time in Manhattan,
 
 00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:04.240
 which is the companion book
 
 00:35:04.300 --> 00:35:05.422
 to my second book on the
 
 00:35:06.143 --> 00:35:07.583
 first full history of Sagamore Hill,
 
 00:35:07.963 --> 00:35:09.324
 Theodore Roosevelt's house out here.
 
 00:35:09.344 --> 00:35:12.108
 And then I'm going to do a book,
 
 00:35:12.967 --> 00:35:13.949
 starting to work also on a
 
 00:35:13.969 --> 00:35:15.010
 book on Long Island shipwrecks.
 
 00:35:15.751 --> 00:35:16.150
 Wonderful.
 
 00:35:16.251 --> 00:35:16.510
 I mean,
 
 00:35:16.572 --> 00:35:18.753
 a lot of material on Long Island to
 
 00:35:18.793 --> 00:35:19.094
 work on.
 
 00:35:19.114 --> 00:35:19.434
 Oh, plenty.
 
 00:35:20.543 --> 00:35:22.423
 So thank you so much for joining us, Bill.
 
 00:35:22.463 --> 00:35:23.324
 Anything else we should
 
 00:35:23.704 --> 00:35:25.146
 mention about the Culper spy ring,
 
 00:35:25.206 --> 00:35:26.206
 aside from your book,
 
 00:35:26.327 --> 00:35:28.307
 George Washington's Long Island Spy Ring,
 
 00:35:28.507 --> 00:35:29.507
 A History and Tour Guide?
 
 00:35:31.829 --> 00:35:31.969
 No,
 
 00:35:32.050 --> 00:35:33.349
 if anybody has any follow-up questions
 
 00:35:33.391 --> 00:35:33.590
 there,
 
 00:35:33.630 --> 00:35:35.652
 welcome to email me at BillBlyer at
 
 00:35:35.672 --> 00:35:36.711
 gmail.com.
 
 00:35:37.873 --> 00:35:38.032
 Also,
 
 00:35:38.072 --> 00:35:39.434
 if anybody would want to sign and
 
 00:35:39.454 --> 00:35:40.974
 inscribe a copy of that or
 
 00:35:40.994 --> 00:35:41.414
 the other books,
 
 00:35:41.434 --> 00:35:43.356
 they can also email me to get that.
 
 00:35:43.376 --> 00:35:45.898
 Okay, BillBlyer at gmail.com.
 
 00:35:46.197 --> 00:35:46.697
 Thank you, Bill.
 
 00:35:47.778 --> 00:35:48.318
 Thank you, Bill.
 
 00:35:49.215 --> 00:35:50.836
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:35:50.896 --> 00:35:51.577
 our producer,
 
 00:35:51.918 --> 00:35:53.778
 and all of our listeners
 
 00:35:53.818 --> 00:35:54.579
 around the world.
 
 00:35:54.619 --> 00:35:54.858
 You know,
 
 00:35:54.878 --> 00:35:56.480
 we initially thought we'd have
 
 00:35:56.579 --> 00:35:58.521
 our friends in Massachusetts tuning in,
 
 00:35:58.561 --> 00:36:01.021
 but we actually have folks all around,
 
 00:36:01.081 --> 00:36:02.143
 and every week I thank you.
 
 00:36:02.242 --> 00:36:03.684
 And if you are in one of
 
 00:36:03.724 --> 00:36:05.063
 these places and want some
 
 00:36:05.083 --> 00:36:06.864
 of our Revolution 250 gear,
 
 00:36:06.905 --> 00:36:08.425
 send Jonathan Lane an email,
 
 00:36:08.465 --> 00:36:10.827
 jlane at revolution250.org,
 
 00:36:10.847 --> 00:36:12.507
 and he will send you a set
 
 00:36:12.547 --> 00:36:13.628
 of our playing cards.
 
 00:36:14.208 --> 00:36:17.530
 So this week, folks in Belfast and Sydney,
 
 00:36:18.217 --> 00:36:20.943
 and New Bedford and Acton, Massachusetts,
 
 00:36:21.324 --> 00:36:23.789
 Wayne, New Jersey and Coolidge, Arizona.
 
 00:36:23.829 --> 00:36:24.911
 Thanks for joining us and
 
 00:36:24.952 --> 00:36:26.114
 people in those places
 
 00:36:26.213 --> 00:36:27.195
 between and beyond.
 
 00:36:27.717 --> 00:36:29.099
 And now we will be piped out
 
 00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:30.181
 on the road to Boston.