The Whiskey Rebellion with Brady J. Crytzer

The "Whiskey Rebellion," as Alexander Hamilton called it, was the first major test of the new government's power to control its territory.  The Whiskey Tax of 1791 taxed smaller producers of whiskey, and required all stills to be registered.  The response of farmers in the west--many of them veterans of the Revolution--was at times violent, and President Washington responded by leading an army of 13,000 men--mocked at the "watermelon army"-- to subdue the rebellion.  We talk about this story with Brady Crytzer, author of The Whiskey Rebellion; A Distilled History of an American Crisis.

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:00.236 --> 00:00:05.139
 yeah please hello everyone
 
 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:06.381
 welcome to the revolution
 
 00:00:06.381 --> 00:00:08.301
 250 podcast I am bob
 
 00:00:08.381 --> 00:00:10.544
 allison I chair the rev 250
 
 00:00:10.544 --> 00:00:11.564
 advisory group we are a
 
 00:00:11.603 --> 00:00:13.646
 consortium of about 70 plus
 
 00:00:13.686 --> 00:00:14.766
 groups in massachusetts
 
 00:00:15.227 --> 00:00:15.887
 planning ways to
 
 00:00:15.928 --> 00:00:16.827
 commemorate the beginnings
 
 00:00:16.847 --> 00:00:17.969
 of american independence
 
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 and our guest today is
 
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 brady kreitzer brady
 
 00:00:20.971 --> 00:00:22.832
 kreitzer teaches history at
 
 00:00:22.873 --> 00:00:24.513
 robert morris university
 
 00:00:24.754 --> 00:00:25.995
 and he is an historian of
 
 00:00:26.035 --> 00:00:27.115
 the american frontier
 
 00:00:27.155 --> 00:00:28.676
 probably one of the leading historians of
 
 00:00:29.126 --> 00:00:30.849
 pennsylvania history and
 
 00:00:30.888 --> 00:00:32.030
 pennsylvania's military
 
 00:00:32.090 --> 00:00:33.692
 history he's the author of
 
 00:00:33.771 --> 00:00:35.372
 battlefield pennsylvania
 
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 which was what goes along
 
 00:00:37.314 --> 00:00:39.216
 with a series of series you
 
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 did for pennsylvania's
 
 00:00:40.378 --> 00:00:42.219
 public broadcasting network
 
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 on pennsylvania
 
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 battlefields and he wrote a
 
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 book about fort pitt as
 
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 well as a book about major
 
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 washington's pittsburgh and
 
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 where actually Gaya Sutta
 
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 and the fall of Indian America.
 
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 We're really here to talk, though,
 
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 about your latest book,
 
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 which is The Whiskey Rebellion,
 
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 a distilled history of an
 
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 American crisis.
 
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 So, Brady, thanks for joining us.
 
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 Thanks, Bob.
 
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 Thank you for having me.
 
 00:01:05.430 --> 00:01:06.469
 So The Whiskey Rebellion,
 
 00:01:06.790 --> 00:01:07.829
 it's one of those things
 
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 everyone knows happened,
 
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 but no one knows much else.
 
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 And your book really does
 
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 tell the story and makes us
 
 00:01:13.631 --> 00:01:15.132
 see why it is important.
 
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 Now,
 
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 what brought you to the story of The
 
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 Whiskey Rebellion?
 
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 Bob, you know,
 
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 it's a really challenging story.
 
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 I live on a piece of
 
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 property that borders the
 
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 property of one of the men
 
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 that was actually arrested
 
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 for his participation in the event.
 
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 And I think a lot of people
 
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 in Western Pennsylvania
 
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 could probably say that and
 
 00:01:35.912 --> 00:01:36.692
 not realize it.
 
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 So it's a book that's very complicated.
 
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 It's been misunderstood, I think,
 
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 throughout the last 230 years as
 
 00:01:45.415 --> 00:01:46.656
 maybe an epilogue to the
 
 00:01:46.697 --> 00:01:48.117
 American Revolution or a
 
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 bookend of some kind.
 
 00:01:49.900 --> 00:01:51.581
 But it's really an insight
 
 00:01:51.620 --> 00:01:53.042
 into the early republic.
 
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 And it challenges us.
 
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 I mean,
 
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 all of the men who participate in
 
 00:01:57.204 --> 00:01:59.527
 the uprising are patriot veterans,
 
 00:02:00.266 --> 00:02:01.507
 and we celebrate them for that.
 
 00:02:01.628 --> 00:02:03.209
 But just 10 years later,
 
 00:02:03.250 --> 00:02:05.350
 they're trying to dismantle
 
 00:02:05.391 --> 00:02:07.233
 the republic in a secessionist movement.
 
 00:02:07.293 --> 00:02:09.394
 So there must be some messiness there.
 
 00:02:09.875 --> 00:02:10.835
 And I think I felt
 
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 comfortable jumping into it
 
 00:02:12.377 --> 00:02:13.997
 to sort it out for people.
 
 00:02:14.537 --> 00:02:14.637
 Yeah,
 
 00:02:14.657 --> 00:02:16.199
 there's a great deal of messiness in
 
 00:02:16.218 --> 00:02:17.139
 it because you do have
 
 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:19.201
 these people who had been
 
 00:02:19.241 --> 00:02:19.962
 on the same side.
 
 00:02:19.983 --> 00:02:21.183
 But they have kind of a
 
 00:02:21.204 --> 00:02:22.004
 somewhat different idea
 
 00:02:22.145 --> 00:02:24.627
 about what the republic was
 
 00:02:24.768 --> 00:02:25.889
 and what their powers were
 
 00:02:25.949 --> 00:02:26.750
 under the republic.
 
 00:02:26.789 --> 00:02:29.312
 You had this government in Philadelphia.
 
 00:02:29.793 --> 00:02:30.933
 One of the things I kept thinking,
 
 00:02:31.133 --> 00:02:32.936
 Alexander Hamilton looms large in this.
 
 00:02:33.637 --> 00:02:34.657
 And I don't remember a song
 
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 about the Whiskey Rebellion in the music.
 
 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:39.731
 so so they mentioned they
 
 00:02:39.771 --> 00:02:40.752
 mentioned the word whiskey
 
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 one time in that musical
 
 00:02:42.073 --> 00:02:43.294
 and I think for for good
 
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 reason it's he doesn't come
 
 00:02:45.034 --> 00:02:46.555
 out of that looking I think
 
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 like the way they might
 
 00:02:47.436 --> 00:02:48.695
 want to portray him in that
 
 00:02:49.135 --> 00:02:50.616
 in that series but that's
 
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 history right that's right
 
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 yeah and there's some other
 
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 fascinating characters in
 
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 this both major characters
 
 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:57.920
 as well as minor characters
 
 00:02:57.941 --> 00:02:58.480
 like one of the most
 
 00:02:58.540 --> 00:02:59.782
 interesting is herman husband
 
 00:03:01.623 --> 00:03:01.843
 Yeah,
 
 00:03:01.883 --> 00:03:03.906
 Herman Husband is one of these people
 
 00:03:03.925 --> 00:03:06.207
 that really shows how much
 
 00:03:06.268 --> 00:03:07.949
 work we still have to do on
 
 00:03:07.969 --> 00:03:08.950
 the Whiskey Rebellion.
 
 00:03:09.670 --> 00:03:10.532
 The Whiskey Rebellion was
 
 00:03:10.572 --> 00:03:12.973
 divided into really three
 
 00:03:13.054 --> 00:03:13.854
 sects of people.
 
 00:03:14.616 --> 00:03:15.776
 There were the moderates,
 
 00:03:15.856 --> 00:03:17.157
 people like Albert Gallatin,
 
 00:03:17.677 --> 00:03:19.799
 the extremists that turned to violence,
 
 00:03:19.899 --> 00:03:21.618
 people like David Bradford.
 
 00:03:22.299 --> 00:03:23.558
 And there were these sort of
 
 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:26.800
 apocalyptic end time types
 
 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:28.621
 like Herman Husband who
 
 00:03:28.681 --> 00:03:30.800
 believed that as foretold
 
 00:03:30.841 --> 00:03:32.020
 in the book of Revelation,
 
 00:03:32.441 --> 00:03:33.442
 the world was ending and
 
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 the Whiskey Rebellion was
 
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 how it would happen.
 
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 And he lived like a hermit
 
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 on top of a mountain in the
 
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 wilderness and he had
 
 00:03:40.022 --> 00:03:41.782
 followers and they all kind
 
 00:03:41.823 --> 00:03:43.084
 of coalesced in this one event.
 
 00:03:43.104 --> 00:03:44.044
 It's really unusual.
 
 00:03:44.679 --> 00:03:45.400
 It's extraordinary,
 
 00:03:45.419 --> 00:03:46.961
 and he's preaching about
 
 00:03:46.981 --> 00:03:51.105
 the New Jerusalem, and it's fascinating.
 
 00:03:51.627 --> 00:03:52.487
 The way you bring these
 
 00:03:52.527 --> 00:03:53.489
 characters to life is
 
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 really great in the book.
 
 00:03:56.292 --> 00:03:56.912
 Why don't we just tell a
 
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 little bit about why whiskey?
 
 00:03:59.555 --> 00:04:00.455
 Was it about whiskey,
 
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 and what provokes this?
 
 00:04:03.699 --> 00:04:03.840
 The...
 
 00:04:05.288 --> 00:04:06.608
 whiskey rebellion you know
 
 00:04:06.627 --> 00:04:07.408
 was never called the
 
 00:04:07.449 --> 00:04:08.628
 whiskey rebellion in its
 
 00:04:08.709 --> 00:04:09.808
 own time it was always
 
 00:04:09.868 --> 00:04:11.330
 called the western
 
 00:04:11.389 --> 00:04:13.110
 insurrection which makes
 
 00:04:13.169 --> 00:04:14.971
 the stakes much higher um
 
 00:04:15.110 --> 00:04:16.130
 but the reason whiskey
 
 00:04:16.170 --> 00:04:17.211
 comes to the forefront is
 
 00:04:17.250 --> 00:04:19.651
 because in the 1790s
 
 00:04:19.932 --> 00:04:21.093
 president washington had a
 
 00:04:21.153 --> 00:04:22.632
 very real concern that
 
 00:04:23.132 --> 00:04:24.834
 america was really dividing
 
 00:04:24.934 --> 00:04:26.394
 into two different
 
 00:04:26.434 --> 00:04:27.713
 countries and they were
 
 00:04:27.774 --> 00:04:29.115
 physically divided between
 
 00:04:29.175 --> 00:04:30.935
 east and west and the
 
 00:04:30.995 --> 00:04:33.055
 appellations were the division um
 
 00:04:33.771 --> 00:04:34.773
 He knew that people in the
 
 00:04:34.853 --> 00:04:36.713
 East respected American sovereignty.
 
 00:04:36.793 --> 00:04:38.136
 He knew that they respected
 
 00:04:38.175 --> 00:04:39.055
 the Constitution.
 
 00:04:39.096 --> 00:04:40.297
 But in the West,
 
 00:04:40.437 --> 00:04:41.398
 there wasn't a real
 
 00:04:41.478 --> 00:04:42.918
 connection to people beyond
 
 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:44.040
 the Appalachian Mountains.
 
 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:46.442
 His fear was that they would
 
 00:04:46.622 --> 00:04:47.543
 attach themselves more
 
 00:04:47.583 --> 00:04:49.685
 towards Spain on the Ohio
 
 00:04:49.745 --> 00:04:50.665
 and Mississippi rivers.
 
 00:04:51.245 --> 00:04:52.567
 Spain was paying some of the
 
 00:04:52.607 --> 00:04:54.208
 people out West, too, to be more honest.
 
 00:04:54.288 --> 00:04:54.848
 Absolutely.
 
 00:04:55.310 --> 00:04:56.870
 I mean, it was cheaper to ship goods.
 
 00:04:56.930 --> 00:04:58.711
 People have trouble visualizing this,
 
 00:04:58.750 --> 00:04:59.911
 but it was cheaper to ship
 
 00:04:59.930 --> 00:05:02.230
 goods from Philadelphia to
 
 00:05:02.290 --> 00:05:03.971
 London than it was from, say,
 
 00:05:04.031 --> 00:05:05.872
 Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, much cheaper.
 
 00:05:07.192 --> 00:05:08.213
 So they would send these
 
 00:05:08.252 --> 00:05:09.653
 goods down the river and
 
 00:05:09.692 --> 00:05:10.853
 they'd end up in New Orleans.
 
 00:05:10.913 --> 00:05:11.932
 And it was a lucrative
 
 00:05:11.952 --> 00:05:13.252
 relationship there when
 
 00:05:13.293 --> 00:05:14.194
 times were good between
 
 00:05:14.254 --> 00:05:15.194
 Spain and America.
 
 00:05:15.814 --> 00:05:17.494
 So it was Alexander Hamilton
 
 00:05:17.514 --> 00:05:19.595
 that believed that the way
 
 00:05:19.634 --> 00:05:20.774
 you unify people
 
 00:05:21.274 --> 00:05:22.858
 and I always get a laugh out of this,
 
 00:05:22.918 --> 00:05:24.439
 but is through taxation.
 
 00:05:25.622 --> 00:05:28.285
 If you have to pay your tax to someone,
 
 00:05:28.586 --> 00:05:29.226
 to a government,
 
 00:05:29.627 --> 00:05:30.788
 then you'll inherently
 
 00:05:30.988 --> 00:05:32.630
 recognize their sovereignty over you.
 
 00:05:33.886 --> 00:05:35.105
 And whiskey was the primary
 
 00:05:35.165 --> 00:05:36.346
 produce of the West.
 
 00:05:37.086 --> 00:05:39.987
 Corn, rye made a very fine whiskey.
 
 00:05:40.026 --> 00:05:40.947
 They made a lot of it.
 
 00:05:41.367 --> 00:05:43.048
 It was the center of their economy.
 
 00:05:43.687 --> 00:05:44.947
 So in 1790,
 
 00:05:44.947 --> 00:05:47.288
 Hamilton creates an excise tax.
 
 00:05:47.348 --> 00:05:48.988
 That's a tax on domestically
 
 00:05:49.028 --> 00:05:49.588
 produced good.
 
 00:05:50.430 --> 00:05:51.170
 And it's on whiskey.
 
 00:05:51.189 --> 00:05:52.189
 And it's the first time ever
 
 00:05:52.209 --> 00:05:53.029
 in American history.
 
 00:05:53.629 --> 00:05:54.970
 He would say it was done to
 
 00:05:55.230 --> 00:05:58.211
 unify the country, but Western farmers,
 
 00:05:58.591 --> 00:05:59.511
 and this is true from
 
 00:05:59.891 --> 00:06:00.951
 Pennsylvania through North
 
 00:06:01.012 --> 00:06:01.891
 and South Carolina,
 
 00:06:02.572 --> 00:06:04.012
 uh kentucky they saw it as
 
 00:06:04.052 --> 00:06:05.334
 an inherent infringement of
 
 00:06:05.374 --> 00:06:06.894
 their rights right right
 
 00:06:07.596 --> 00:06:09.057
 and so he imposes the tax
 
 00:06:09.276 --> 00:06:10.997
 and then there's outrage
 
 00:06:11.017 --> 00:06:12.298
 for a lot of by the way you
 
 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:13.079
 do a really good job of
 
 00:06:13.119 --> 00:06:14.180
 breaking the book down into
 
 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:16.161
 three parts that are kind
 
 00:06:16.201 --> 00:06:17.963
 of modeled on the process
 
 00:06:18.002 --> 00:06:18.903
 of making whiskey
 
 00:06:23.093 --> 00:06:25.694
 And so they react with the
 
 00:06:25.713 --> 00:06:26.954
 kinds of protests we had
 
 00:06:26.975 --> 00:06:28.375
 seen before the revolution,
 
 00:06:29.235 --> 00:06:31.197
 meetings and then actually
 
 00:06:31.377 --> 00:06:32.778
 physical attacks on the
 
 00:06:33.057 --> 00:06:34.379
 excise collectors or on
 
 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:36.639
 people's symbols there to
 
 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:37.500
 enforce the law.
 
 00:06:39.012 --> 00:06:39.593
 It was, you know,
 
 00:06:39.613 --> 00:06:40.733
 it's an era of gesture
 
 00:06:40.774 --> 00:06:43.096
 politics and people hear
 
 00:06:43.156 --> 00:06:44.497
 about tax collectors who
 
 00:06:44.557 --> 00:06:46.319
 are from the area where
 
 00:06:46.338 --> 00:06:47.360
 these attacks are happening,
 
 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.762
 Western Pennsylvania, Western Virginia.
 
 00:06:50.281 --> 00:06:51.682
 And they're very violent attacks,
 
 00:06:51.843 --> 00:06:53.343
 tarring and feathering and
 
 00:06:53.704 --> 00:06:55.086
 burning with branding irons.
 
 00:06:55.826 --> 00:06:56.666
 And I always draw people
 
 00:06:56.726 --> 00:06:58.387
 back to the Boston Tea Party.
 
 00:06:59.389 --> 00:07:02.629
 This is an era of gesture politics.
 
 00:07:03.209 --> 00:07:04.310
 And it's meant to be seen.
 
 00:07:04.391 --> 00:07:06.091
 It's meant to be a message.
 
 00:07:06.791 --> 00:07:07.692
 And that's what this was.
 
 00:07:07.732 --> 00:07:08.172
 I mean,
 
 00:07:08.391 --> 00:07:09.833
 when the first tax collectors are
 
 00:07:09.853 --> 00:07:12.113
 attacked, and they're very brutal attacks,
 
 00:07:12.713 --> 00:07:13.634
 the men who attack them
 
 00:07:14.035 --> 00:07:16.254
 dress like Native American warriors.
 
 00:07:16.896 --> 00:07:18.136
 Because at the same time
 
 00:07:18.675 --> 00:07:20.216
 that the whiskey rebellion is happening,
 
 00:07:20.764 --> 00:07:22.125
 There's the Northwest Indian
 
 00:07:22.165 --> 00:07:23.547
 War against Little Turtles
 
 00:07:23.607 --> 00:07:26.069
 Western Confederacy in Ohio.
 
 00:07:26.488 --> 00:07:27.449
 And that's adding extra
 
 00:07:27.488 --> 00:07:28.610
 pressure to Western farmers.
 
 00:07:28.649 --> 00:07:29.730
 They're being attacked by
 
 00:07:30.490 --> 00:07:31.851
 Indian raids all the time.
 
 00:07:31.891 --> 00:07:33.634
 So they paint themselves as Indians.
 
 00:07:34.653 --> 00:07:36.675
 They make these bold public statements.
 
 00:07:36.716 --> 00:07:38.516
 And unfortunately for the tax collectors,
 
 00:07:39.016 --> 00:07:40.757
 they suffer physical bodily
 
 00:07:40.817 --> 00:07:42.178
 harm on behalf of the
 
 00:07:42.218 --> 00:07:43.720
 Treasury Department who's employing them.
 
 00:07:44.221 --> 00:07:44.461
 Right.
 
 00:07:44.661 --> 00:07:44.781
 Yeah.
 
 00:07:45.889 --> 00:07:47.651
 And then you have people who
 
 00:07:47.690 --> 00:07:49.732
 then do register their
 
 00:07:49.771 --> 00:07:51.093
 stills or show sympathy.
 
 00:07:51.132 --> 00:07:51.853
 They're attacked too.
 
 00:07:51.913 --> 00:07:52.113
 I mean,
 
 00:07:52.134 --> 00:07:54.074
 the mob is not just going after
 
 00:07:54.115 --> 00:07:55.634
 these visible attacks
 
 00:07:55.694 --> 00:07:56.776
 collected against anyone
 
 00:07:56.815 --> 00:07:58.516
 who might be sympathetic with that side.
 
 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:01.300
 We have, you know, in the revolution,
 
 00:08:01.341 --> 00:08:02.680
 we have Tories, right?
 
 00:08:03.440 --> 00:08:04.502
 These are people who maybe
 
 00:08:04.541 --> 00:08:06.242
 don't attach themselves to
 
 00:08:06.262 --> 00:08:07.723
 the patriot cause early on.
 
 00:08:08.002 --> 00:08:09.182
 You have a similar kind of
 
 00:08:09.762 --> 00:08:12.084
 intense dislike of loyalists,
 
 00:08:12.144 --> 00:08:13.564
 if you would, in the Whiskey Rebellion.
 
 00:08:14.285 --> 00:08:15.605
 If you did play by the rules,
 
 00:08:15.665 --> 00:08:17.165
 if you didn't register, you're still.
 
 00:08:17.586 --> 00:08:18.586
 You would wake up one day
 
 00:08:18.607 --> 00:08:19.588
 and it would be destroyed.
 
 00:08:21.009 --> 00:08:22.389
 There was a group of people
 
 00:08:22.410 --> 00:08:23.612
 and it's not one person,
 
 00:08:23.651 --> 00:08:24.531
 but it's really a group
 
 00:08:24.952 --> 00:08:25.752
 that would call themselves
 
 00:08:25.814 --> 00:08:26.694
 Tom the Tinker.
 
 00:08:27.254 --> 00:08:28.255
 And they would they would
 
 00:08:28.336 --> 00:08:30.437
 find someone who played by the rules.
 
 00:08:30.497 --> 00:08:32.178
 They'd destroy their still.
 
 00:08:32.219 --> 00:08:33.379
 They'd burn their barn and
 
 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:34.100
 they'd leave a note.
 
 00:08:34.561 --> 00:08:35.101
 And it would say,
 
 00:08:35.121 --> 00:08:36.442
 Tom the Tinker's men were here.
 
 00:08:36.942 --> 00:08:38.524
 And that was that was a fear tactic.
 
 00:08:38.585 --> 00:08:39.985
 That was, you know,
 
 00:08:40.025 --> 00:08:41.527
 a form of intimidation.
 
 00:08:41.967 --> 00:08:42.048
 Yeah.
 
 00:08:42.856 --> 00:08:44.179
 We're talking with Brady Kreitzer,
 
 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:45.721
 who is the author of The
 
 00:08:45.761 --> 00:08:46.764
 Whiskey Rebellion,
 
 00:08:46.823 --> 00:08:47.966
 A Distilled History of an
 
 00:08:48.025 --> 00:08:49.067
 American Crisis.
 
 00:08:52.019 --> 00:08:53.301
 I mean, a lot of things in the book,
 
 00:08:53.520 --> 00:08:54.022
 really,
 
 00:08:54.042 --> 00:08:56.082
 I found interesting as well as
 
 00:08:56.143 --> 00:08:56.702
 surprising.
 
 00:08:56.803 --> 00:08:57.844
 One that Washington,
 
 00:08:58.024 --> 00:08:58.945
 Pennsylvania was actually
 
 00:08:58.985 --> 00:09:00.466
 bigger than Pittsburgh at this time.
 
 00:09:00.505 --> 00:09:01.687
 And that seems to be one of
 
 00:09:01.706 --> 00:09:04.129
 the real hot points for this rebellion,
 
 00:09:04.188 --> 00:09:06.210
 Washington County and then
 
 00:09:06.309 --> 00:09:07.211
 Washington itself.
 
 00:09:07.270 --> 00:09:08.172
 And another point you make
 
 00:09:08.211 --> 00:09:09.072
 in the book is that a lot
 
 00:09:09.091 --> 00:09:10.852
 of the leaders of this were
 
 00:09:10.913 --> 00:09:11.854
 leaders in the community,
 
 00:09:11.894 --> 00:09:12.794
 like John Hamilton,
 
 00:09:12.835 --> 00:09:14.515
 no relation to the Treasury Secretary.
 
 00:09:14.535 --> 00:09:15.697
 He's the colonel of the militia.
 
 00:09:15.716 --> 00:09:17.638
 And the Hamiltons are really
 
 00:09:17.658 --> 00:09:19.720
 among the leaders of this
 
 00:09:19.779 --> 00:09:21.500
 insurrection or this movement.
 
 00:09:23.201 --> 00:09:24.402
 The best way to think of it is,
 
 00:09:24.923 --> 00:09:25.783
 so you have Allegheny
 
 00:09:25.822 --> 00:09:27.363
 County and then you have
 
 00:09:27.423 --> 00:09:28.484
 Washington County and they
 
 00:09:28.504 --> 00:09:29.844
 stack on top of one another.
 
 00:09:30.303 --> 00:09:32.105
 Allegheny County, the seat is Pittsburgh.
 
 00:09:32.784 --> 00:09:34.846
 Pittsburgh is a federal city.
 
 00:09:35.166 --> 00:09:35.485
 It is,
 
 00:09:35.505 --> 00:09:37.066
 I always like to call it one of the
 
 00:09:37.105 --> 00:09:38.447
 capitals of the frontier.
 
 00:09:39.366 --> 00:09:40.466
 There's a federal fort,
 
 00:09:40.506 --> 00:09:41.748
 there are federal buildings,
 
 00:09:41.868 --> 00:09:42.988
 federal agencies.
 
 00:09:43.048 --> 00:09:44.288
 It's a federal city,
 
 00:09:44.688 --> 00:09:45.948
 but it's surrounded by a
 
 00:09:46.048 --> 00:09:48.289
 sea of very anti-federal sentiment,
 
 00:09:48.809 --> 00:09:49.110
 farmers.
 
 00:09:50.057 --> 00:09:50.197
 Um,
 
 00:09:50.457 --> 00:09:52.578
 so just south of it is Washington
 
 00:09:52.619 --> 00:09:55.559
 County and Washington County is growing.
 
 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:57.280
 Um, it has a,
 
 00:09:57.500 --> 00:09:58.780
 it has a County seat also
 
 00:09:58.841 --> 00:10:00.961
 called Washington named after the general,
 
 00:10:01.381 --> 00:10:01.621
 you know,
 
 00:10:01.642 --> 00:10:03.182
 these people are not never anti
 
 00:10:03.202 --> 00:10:04.062
 George Washington.
 
 00:10:04.822 --> 00:10:06.283
 He's what rises above for them.
 
 00:10:06.903 --> 00:10:08.724
 Um, but it's, it's a growing fast city.
 
 00:10:08.764 --> 00:10:09.804
 It'll have mansions.
 
 00:10:09.904 --> 00:10:10.365
 It'll have,
 
 00:10:10.644 --> 00:10:12.225
 it'll look like us almost like
 
 00:10:12.265 --> 00:10:13.645
 a miniature Baltimore.
 
 00:10:13.686 --> 00:10:14.846
 If you could think of it that way.
 
 00:10:15.486 --> 00:10:18.067
 Um, and people there are educated and, and,
 
 00:10:18.248 --> 00:10:19.327
 and, and wealthy.
 
 00:10:20.461 --> 00:10:22.001
 But it's around Washington
 
 00:10:22.022 --> 00:10:23.322
 where you have these hollows,
 
 00:10:23.381 --> 00:10:24.602
 very Appalachian kind of
 
 00:10:24.643 --> 00:10:27.344
 places with lots of Irish families.
 
 00:10:28.004 --> 00:10:29.304
 And these ruling families
 
 00:10:29.345 --> 00:10:30.605
 almost become like gangs,
 
 00:10:31.184 --> 00:10:32.885
 almost like the Hatfield and McCoy gangs.
 
 00:10:32.926 --> 00:10:34.927
 They have people attached to them.
 
 00:10:35.246 --> 00:10:37.528
 They have influenced John Hamilton.
 
 00:10:38.327 --> 00:10:39.668
 is the sheriff of the of the
 
 00:10:39.749 --> 00:10:40.710
 region he's one of the
 
 00:10:40.750 --> 00:10:42.071
 primary leaders of the of
 
 00:10:42.091 --> 00:10:43.591
 the rebellion and he's also
 
 00:10:43.851 --> 00:10:45.332
 the governor appointed head
 
 00:10:45.373 --> 00:10:46.592
 of the of the state militia
 
 00:10:47.134 --> 00:10:48.514
 so if there was an uprising
 
 00:10:48.595 --> 00:10:49.534
 he would be the one to have
 
 00:10:49.554 --> 00:10:50.816
 to put it down and he's the
 
 00:10:50.875 --> 00:10:52.456
 one responsible right so
 
 00:10:52.496 --> 00:10:54.479
 it's it's it's very tribal
 
 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:56.200
 in a way um and I think
 
 00:10:56.580 --> 00:10:57.740
 when you study the frontier
 
 00:10:57.780 --> 00:10:58.942
 you kind of learn this
 
 00:10:59.022 --> 00:11:00.121
 shorthand that develops
 
 00:11:01.842 --> 00:11:02.023
 Yeah,
 
 00:11:02.302 --> 00:11:05.945
 so another of the characters who is a
 
 00:11:05.985 --> 00:11:06.245
 real,
 
 00:11:06.605 --> 00:11:08.005
 two characters who are important
 
 00:11:08.066 --> 00:11:08.905
 generally in American
 
 00:11:08.966 --> 00:11:09.765
 history but really play a
 
 00:11:09.785 --> 00:11:10.466
 big role in this are
 
 00:11:10.506 --> 00:11:12.307
 William Findlay and Albert Gallatin.
 
 00:11:12.947 --> 00:11:14.989
 And Gallatin is a relatively
 
 00:11:15.369 --> 00:11:17.629
 new arrival on this frontier.
 
 00:11:17.669 --> 00:11:19.610
 He's from Switzerland and he
 
 00:11:20.110 --> 00:11:22.631
 has set up an estate,
 
 00:11:22.652 --> 00:11:24.332
 a glassworks that he wants
 
 00:11:24.393 --> 00:11:26.053
 to sort of glassworks at Friendship Hill.
 
 00:11:26.994 --> 00:11:27.933
 And he plays an interesting
 
 00:11:27.994 --> 00:11:28.794
 role in all of this.
 
 00:11:29.826 --> 00:11:31.208
 Yeah, Gallatin, you know,
 
 00:11:31.249 --> 00:11:33.030
 he comes to America, as you mentioned,
 
 00:11:33.051 --> 00:11:36.094
 from Geneva because he gets he gets very,
 
 00:11:36.453 --> 00:11:38.556
 I think, disenchanted by the old world.
 
 00:11:38.596 --> 00:11:39.998
 And when he sees America,
 
 00:11:40.057 --> 00:11:41.198
 he spends time in Boston.
 
 00:11:41.580 --> 00:11:43.100
 He says it's this is a direct quote.
 
 00:11:43.341 --> 00:11:44.883
 Terribly boring is what he says.
 
 00:11:46.144 --> 00:11:47.605
 He sees the frontier as this
 
 00:11:47.745 --> 00:11:49.028
 just blank canvas.
 
 00:11:49.288 --> 00:11:49.488
 I mean,
 
 00:11:49.508 --> 00:11:51.610
 the real America that he read about.
 
 00:11:52.350 --> 00:11:54.873
 And he sees rivers and hills and valleys,
 
 00:11:54.913 --> 00:11:55.972
 and he sees places that you
 
 00:11:55.993 --> 00:11:58.595
 can literally start cities from scratch.
 
 00:11:59.134 --> 00:12:01.596
 So he moves to the far
 
 00:12:01.696 --> 00:12:04.057
 southwestern corner of Pennsylvania,
 
 00:12:04.837 --> 00:12:07.379
 and he establishes a town.
 
 00:12:07.418 --> 00:12:08.919
 He wants to call it New Geneva.
 
 00:12:09.379 --> 00:12:12.101
 He's an interesting character.
 
 00:12:12.142 --> 00:12:14.663
 He's a short man, thick accent,
 
 00:12:15.163 --> 00:12:17.043
 but the people of the West
 
 00:12:17.424 --> 00:12:18.625
 really embrace him because
 
 00:12:18.664 --> 00:12:19.485
 he's a true believer.
 
 00:12:20.385 --> 00:12:22.047
 And he believes in what
 
 00:12:22.086 --> 00:12:23.027
 they're capable of.
 
 00:12:23.067 --> 00:12:24.168
 He believes in the future.
 
 00:12:24.187 --> 00:12:24.807
 You know,
 
 00:12:24.868 --> 00:12:26.629
 I'm just finishing a book now on
 
 00:12:26.649 --> 00:12:27.548
 the national road,
 
 00:12:27.609 --> 00:12:29.910
 and it's really a story on
 
 00:12:30.150 --> 00:12:30.931
 on what he's doing.
 
 00:12:30.971 --> 00:12:32.412
 So I'm really in Gallatin mode here.
 
 00:12:32.951 --> 00:12:34.812
 But he is he speaks for
 
 00:12:34.852 --> 00:12:37.153
 those people and he always does.
 
 00:12:37.793 --> 00:12:38.695
 uh at the time he's in the
 
 00:12:38.735 --> 00:12:40.375
 pennsylvania assembly right
 
 00:12:40.696 --> 00:12:42.017
 uh and he is responsible
 
 00:12:42.096 --> 00:12:43.457
 early on for helping them
 
 00:12:43.577 --> 00:12:44.738
 organize their grievances
 
 00:12:44.899 --> 00:12:46.219
 why is this law a problem
 
 00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:49.081
 why is it harmful uh to our
 
 00:12:49.140 --> 00:12:50.642
 way of life and he helps
 
 00:12:50.662 --> 00:12:51.743
 them compile it in a
 
 00:12:51.783 --> 00:12:53.484
 document and he and finley
 
 00:12:53.524 --> 00:12:54.625
 will actually deliver those
 
 00:12:54.684 --> 00:12:56.285
 documents themselves to the
 
 00:12:56.326 --> 00:12:57.586
 capitol gallatin will
 
 00:12:57.947 --> 00:12:59.047
 deliver the grievances to
 
 00:12:59.086 --> 00:13:00.628
 the state assembly and
 
 00:13:00.687 --> 00:13:01.609
 william finley is the
 
 00:13:01.649 --> 00:13:03.309
 congressman at large for western
 
 00:13:04.431 --> 00:13:06.351
 He'll deliver them to the
 
 00:13:06.591 --> 00:13:07.631
 House of Representatives.
 
 00:13:08.131 --> 00:13:09.472
 Gallatin is there early on.
 
 00:13:09.952 --> 00:13:11.193
 Once it gets out of control,
 
 00:13:11.234 --> 00:13:12.714
 when it turns violent, he leaves.
 
 00:13:13.494 --> 00:13:16.095
 And he will say that his participation was,
 
 00:13:16.456 --> 00:13:18.535
 quote, his only political sin.
 
 00:13:19.057 --> 00:13:21.277
 And for a lifetime, lifelong politician,
 
 00:13:21.297 --> 00:13:22.077
 that's a big admission.
 
 00:13:22.638 --> 00:13:22.918
 That is.
 
 00:13:23.437 --> 00:13:24.479
 And it really makes him a
 
 00:13:24.739 --> 00:13:26.519
 target for Alexander Hamilton.
 
 00:13:26.538 --> 00:13:27.960
 And these two really do form
 
 00:13:29.077 --> 00:13:30.298
 polarity, because of course,
 
 00:13:30.538 --> 00:13:31.519
 Gallatin becomes the
 
 00:13:31.558 --> 00:13:32.759
 Secretary of the Treasury,
 
 00:13:32.798 --> 00:13:34.379
 which a much different idea
 
 00:13:34.419 --> 00:13:36.301
 about national development than Hamilton.
 
 00:13:36.620 --> 00:13:38.061
 Hamilton very much top down,
 
 00:13:38.561 --> 00:13:39.601
 and will tell you what is
 
 00:13:39.662 --> 00:13:41.101
 best and Gallatin and the
 
 00:13:41.142 --> 00:13:42.263
 Jeffersonians really
 
 00:13:42.302 --> 00:13:44.082
 looking at these organic
 
 00:13:44.123 --> 00:13:45.823
 ways of creating national wealth.
 
 00:13:46.940 --> 00:13:48.802
 That's a great way to see it.
 
 00:13:48.822 --> 00:13:51.086
 I call him the anti-Hamilton in a way.
 
 00:13:52.147 --> 00:13:54.129
 That's the name of the musical.
 
 00:13:54.850 --> 00:13:55.652
 Yes, exactly.
 
 00:13:56.192 --> 00:13:57.274
 It would be a boring one too.
 
 00:13:58.115 --> 00:13:59.076
 He was famous for having,
 
 00:13:59.216 --> 00:14:00.498
 when he was in Washington,
 
 00:14:00.538 --> 00:14:01.940
 having young congressmen
 
 00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:03.221
 come to his house to counsel them.
 
 00:14:03.822 --> 00:14:05.302
 And never serving alcohol.
 
 00:14:05.342 --> 00:14:06.643
 So he was well known for that.
 
 00:14:07.823 --> 00:14:11.504
 But he he would serve Jefferson, Madison,
 
 00:14:11.524 --> 00:14:14.225
 Monroe and Adams distinguished career.
 
 00:14:14.265 --> 00:14:16.767
 But it all kind of began from a trauma.
 
 00:14:17.148 --> 00:14:19.148
 And that trauma was the Whiskey Rebellion.
 
 00:14:19.187 --> 00:14:20.969
 That's where he learned the
 
 00:14:21.009 --> 00:14:22.990
 danger of maybe populism.
 
 00:14:23.549 --> 00:14:23.830
 Right.
 
 00:14:23.850 --> 00:14:24.070
 Yeah.
 
 00:14:24.471 --> 00:14:24.671
 Yeah.
 
 00:14:25.150 --> 00:14:25.551
 Yeah.
 
 00:14:25.918 --> 00:14:27.359
 And then Hamilton engineers
 
 00:14:27.438 --> 00:14:28.700
 his ouster from the Senate
 
 00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:30.779
 when the legislature elects
 
 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.120
 him in the wake of all of this.
 
 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:33.880
 Yeah,
 
 00:14:33.921 --> 00:14:36.562
 very familiar tones of today's world.
 
 00:14:36.601 --> 00:14:38.682
 He's a Genevan in a new country.
 
 00:14:38.761 --> 00:14:41.043
 He's elected to the United States Senate.
 
 00:14:41.423 --> 00:14:43.403
 And immediately upon his election,
 
 00:14:44.083 --> 00:14:46.203
 a conspiracy develops led
 
 00:14:46.244 --> 00:14:47.664
 by Hamilton to get him ousted.
 
 00:14:47.705 --> 00:14:49.544
 And their reason is that he
 
 00:14:49.825 --> 00:14:50.745
 can't be trusted.
 
 00:14:50.804 --> 00:14:51.645
 He's a foreigner.
 
 00:14:51.725 --> 00:14:52.625
 He's an outsider.
 
 00:14:53.466 --> 00:14:54.547
 How could we trust him?
 
 00:14:54.626 --> 00:14:56.206
 Even when he becomes a
 
 00:14:56.246 --> 00:14:57.807
 member of the Jefferson administration,
 
 00:14:58.288 --> 00:14:58.888
 people will say,
 
 00:14:58.927 --> 00:15:00.428
 how could he talk to Napoleon?
 
 00:15:01.009 --> 00:15:03.070
 His own native language.
 
 00:15:03.230 --> 00:15:04.890
 Can we really trust this guy?
 
 00:15:05.910 --> 00:15:08.772
 It was a very telling time, I think.
 
 00:15:09.332 --> 00:15:10.712
 And again, we see these themes today.
 
 00:15:11.273 --> 00:15:11.614
 We do.
 
 00:15:11.714 --> 00:15:11.933
 We do.
 
 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.662
 And William Findlay serves in Congress.
 
 00:15:15.701 --> 00:15:19.205
 He's an opponent of the
 
 00:15:19.264 --> 00:15:21.125
 ratifying the Constitution in 1788,
 
 00:15:21.125 --> 00:15:22.687
 but then he becomes 1787, 1888,
 
 00:15:22.687 --> 00:15:26.049
 serves as a long distinguished current.
 
 00:15:26.070 --> 00:15:26.990
 He also writes one of the
 
 00:15:27.510 --> 00:15:28.831
 first histories of this
 
 00:15:29.072 --> 00:15:30.453
 event in the wake of it.
 
 00:15:32.028 --> 00:15:34.510
 Finley is he'll eventually
 
 00:15:34.551 --> 00:15:35.611
 be named the father.
 
 00:15:35.631 --> 00:15:37.475
 And it's a ceremonial title,
 
 00:15:37.634 --> 00:15:39.417
 father of the House of Representatives.
 
 00:15:39.437 --> 00:15:41.499
 He's long, distinguished career,
 
 00:15:42.561 --> 00:15:44.942
 very well established man of the people,
 
 00:15:45.043 --> 00:15:46.544
 Jeffersonian type really
 
 00:15:46.585 --> 00:15:47.527
 before that emerges.
 
 00:15:49.147 --> 00:15:50.908
 And he is suspicious of this
 
 00:15:51.028 --> 00:15:52.687
 law from the beginning.
 
 00:15:53.448 --> 00:15:54.889
 And he's involved in a lot
 
 00:15:54.908 --> 00:15:55.908
 of the early proceedings.
 
 00:15:55.948 --> 00:15:57.230
 And again, they are not violent.
 
 00:15:57.429 --> 00:15:58.950
 They're listing grievances,
 
 00:15:59.090 --> 00:16:00.009
 making resolves,
 
 00:16:00.169 --> 00:16:01.990
 but the constitution tells
 
 00:16:02.030 --> 00:16:03.650
 these farmers they're allowed to do.
 
 00:16:04.511 --> 00:16:07.591
 But even as the rebellion goes on,
 
 00:16:07.652 --> 00:16:08.572
 he becomes a target.
 
 00:16:09.173 --> 00:16:10.913
 Thomas Jefferson, excuse me,
 
 00:16:11.232 --> 00:16:12.394
 Alexander Hamilton will
 
 00:16:12.413 --> 00:16:14.533
 list him as a ringleader of
 
 00:16:14.553 --> 00:16:16.054
 the movement when he wasn't.
 
 00:16:16.835 --> 00:16:18.875
 you know, really as a as a means of,
 
 00:16:20.056 --> 00:16:20.316
 you know,
 
 00:16:20.355 --> 00:16:22.177
 redress for their political differences.
 
 00:16:22.197 --> 00:16:23.596
 And it really gives us one
 
 00:16:23.616 --> 00:16:25.258
 of the great histories of the rebellion.
 
 00:16:25.738 --> 00:16:26.518
 And there's a couple of
 
 00:16:26.599 --> 00:16:27.379
 people that do this,
 
 00:16:27.778 --> 00:16:28.719
 and then he'll interview
 
 00:16:28.778 --> 00:16:30.139
 people who interview neighbors,
 
 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:31.440
 get firsthand accounts.
 
 00:16:31.460 --> 00:16:33.341
 It's incredibly valuable to historians.
 
 00:16:33.904 --> 00:16:34.926
 But the underlying theme of
 
 00:16:34.966 --> 00:16:36.966
 that book is I was there,
 
 00:16:37.327 --> 00:16:38.087
 but I'm not guilty.
 
 00:16:38.467 --> 00:16:38.889
 Okay.
 
 00:16:38.928 --> 00:16:40.950
 He's always writing, I was there,
 
 00:16:41.070 --> 00:16:42.291
 but I'm not one of these
 
 00:16:42.772 --> 00:16:44.253
 maniacs that went too far.
 
 00:16:44.273 --> 00:16:45.673
 That is to exonerate himself.
 
 00:16:46.374 --> 00:16:46.595
 Right.
 
 00:16:46.634 --> 00:16:46.835
 Yeah.
 
 00:16:47.495 --> 00:16:48.375
 And then, of course,
 
 00:16:48.395 --> 00:16:49.277
 the other one who writes a
 
 00:16:49.317 --> 00:16:51.597
 history is Hugh Henry Brackenridge,
 
 00:16:51.658 --> 00:16:52.178
 who has been...
 
 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:54.340
 Very similar, yeah.
 
 00:16:54.379 --> 00:16:55.780
 Friend of Madison's,
 
 00:16:55.841 --> 00:16:57.322
 classmate of Madison's at Princeton,
 
 00:16:57.422 --> 00:16:59.462
 and then he's out there on the frontier,
 
 00:16:59.562 --> 00:17:01.524
 and he's also involved and
 
 00:17:02.164 --> 00:17:03.105
 writes a history.
 
 00:17:03.666 --> 00:17:05.767
 The Gallatin, Finley,
 
 00:17:05.866 --> 00:17:06.607
 and Brackenridge are all
 
 00:17:06.647 --> 00:17:08.469
 somewhat moderates in this.
 
 00:17:08.489 --> 00:17:09.670
 Very much.
 
 00:17:11.711 --> 00:17:12.652
 don't go as far as somebody
 
 00:17:12.672 --> 00:17:14.452
 else um david bradford's
 
 00:17:14.613 --> 00:17:16.894
 and then he seems like a
 
 00:17:16.974 --> 00:17:18.155
 classic demagogue I mean he
 
 00:17:18.195 --> 00:17:19.516
 arrives on the scene and is
 
 00:17:19.557 --> 00:17:20.457
 always trying to figure out
 
 00:17:20.557 --> 00:17:22.137
 which way we'll get you
 
 00:17:22.157 --> 00:17:23.778
 know which way to lead this
 
 00:17:23.858 --> 00:17:25.099
 group who seems to be
 
 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:25.921
 already going in one
 
 00:17:25.961 --> 00:17:27.501
 direction and I would agree
 
 00:17:27.521 --> 00:17:28.702
 I would agree yeah david
 
 00:17:28.722 --> 00:17:30.064
 bradford you know after the
 
 00:17:30.104 --> 00:17:31.284
 rebellion turns violent
 
 00:17:31.505 --> 00:17:32.505
 bradford really isn't
 
 00:17:32.565 --> 00:17:33.925
 involved until the very end
 
 00:17:34.707 --> 00:17:35.666
 he's kind of a cheerleader
 
 00:17:35.707 --> 00:17:36.728
 he's from maryland very
 
 00:17:36.788 --> 00:17:37.949
 wealthy not a frontiersman
 
 00:17:38.779 --> 00:17:40.422
 And when the rebellion turns violent,
 
 00:17:40.442 --> 00:17:41.983
 the leadership, like Finley,
 
 00:17:42.023 --> 00:17:43.306
 like Gallatin, they flee.
 
 00:17:43.346 --> 00:17:45.008
 They don't want to be involved in this.
 
 00:17:45.648 --> 00:17:47.191
 And Bradford kind of gets
 
 00:17:47.311 --> 00:17:49.413
 roped into taking over the
 
 00:17:49.775 --> 00:17:51.817
 rebellion at its most dangerous point.
 
 00:17:52.357 --> 00:17:53.339
 And he embraces it.
 
 00:17:53.380 --> 00:17:54.882
 He calls himself the
 
 00:17:54.942 --> 00:17:56.123
 Robespierre of the West.
 
 00:17:57.407 --> 00:17:59.588
 He shows up riding on a white horse.
 
 00:17:59.648 --> 00:18:01.528
 He has military medallions
 
 00:18:01.568 --> 00:18:02.489
 and he's never served.
 
 00:18:02.888 --> 00:18:03.749
 No one knows where he gets
 
 00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:04.430
 these medallions.
 
 00:18:05.089 --> 00:18:07.529
 And the rebels rally around him.
 
 00:18:07.549 --> 00:18:08.309
 And he's the one that
 
 00:18:08.369 --> 00:18:10.830
 transforms this from being
 
 00:18:10.911 --> 00:18:13.211
 an anti-tax protest to
 
 00:18:14.090 --> 00:18:15.791
 ultimately a secessionist movement.
 
 00:18:16.352 --> 00:18:18.392
 He will send representatives
 
 00:18:18.912 --> 00:18:20.313
 to Louisiana to meet with
 
 00:18:20.353 --> 00:18:21.353
 the Spanish Empire.
 
 00:18:21.885 --> 00:18:23.567
 He'll have a flag made for
 
 00:18:24.588 --> 00:18:25.711
 the counties that are in
 
 00:18:25.810 --> 00:18:27.593
 rebellion against the United States.
 
 00:18:28.153 --> 00:18:30.076
 And he'll ultimately attempt
 
 00:18:30.135 --> 00:18:32.479
 to sack Pittsburgh, the federal city.
 
 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:35.863
 So he's the one that, again,
 
 00:18:35.982 --> 00:18:37.585
 always will conflate himself
 
 00:18:38.346 --> 00:18:39.287
 raise himself.
 
 00:18:39.346 --> 00:18:41.769
 He he raids the mail coming
 
 00:18:41.869 --> 00:18:43.131
 out of the federal mail
 
 00:18:43.191 --> 00:18:44.152
 coming out of Pittsburgh.
 
 00:18:44.613 --> 00:18:45.513
 And he'll say this just
 
 00:18:45.554 --> 00:18:46.595
 because he wants to know
 
 00:18:46.694 --> 00:18:48.036
 what people are saying about him.
 
 00:18:48.416 --> 00:18:49.317
 And there's letters in there
 
 00:18:49.397 --> 00:18:50.499
 from Alexander Hamilton.
 
 00:18:50.818 --> 00:18:51.500
 And he wants to know,
 
 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:53.080
 do people realize that I'm
 
 00:18:53.142 --> 00:18:54.383
 the face of this movement now?
 
 00:18:55.384 --> 00:18:56.305
 So he comes in at the end
 
 00:18:56.325 --> 00:18:57.605
 and he's he's kind of, I think,
 
 00:18:57.685 --> 00:18:57.926
 one of the
 
 00:18:58.806 --> 00:18:59.769
 the least appealing
 
 00:19:00.148 --> 00:19:00.991
 characters or at least
 
 00:19:01.132 --> 00:19:02.295
 appetizing characters that
 
 00:19:02.335 --> 00:19:03.176
 comes out of this because
 
 00:19:03.617 --> 00:19:05.082
 we know people like this
 
 00:19:05.122 --> 00:19:06.404
 and we still know them and
 
 00:19:07.267 --> 00:19:08.309
 they serve the same purpose.
 
 00:19:09.134 --> 00:19:09.595
 Right, they do.
 
 00:19:09.855 --> 00:19:11.316
 We're talking with Brady Kreitzer,
 
 00:19:11.435 --> 00:19:12.797
 author of The Whiskey Rebellion,
 
 00:19:12.836 --> 00:19:13.897
 A Distilled History of an
 
 00:19:13.917 --> 00:19:14.959
 American Crisis.
 
 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:16.480
 And of course,
 
 00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:19.721
 one of the big episodes in 1794,
 
 00:19:19.721 --> 00:19:20.323
 Washington,
 
 00:19:20.343 --> 00:19:21.502
 in response to all of this
 
 00:19:21.544 --> 00:19:22.984
 violence on the frontier
 
 00:19:23.565 --> 00:19:25.425
 and the threat of burning Pittsburgh,
 
 00:19:25.486 --> 00:19:28.848
 does send, he leads an army west.
 
 00:19:29.710 --> 00:19:29.829
 And
 
 00:19:30.670 --> 00:19:32.551
 About 12,000 men mustered
 
 00:19:32.652 --> 00:19:34.353
 from these four states who
 
 00:19:34.413 --> 00:19:35.795
 are going out to suppress
 
 00:19:35.875 --> 00:19:38.076
 this insurrection, which, again,
 
 00:19:38.096 --> 00:19:39.178
 that's a fascinating story.
 
 00:19:39.577 --> 00:19:40.278
 It's the last time a
 
 00:19:40.318 --> 00:19:43.800
 president led troops into a
 
 00:19:43.861 --> 00:19:44.801
 confrontation like this.
 
 00:19:45.021 --> 00:19:46.443
 Yeah, into the field of battle.
 
 00:19:46.824 --> 00:19:48.065
 So Washington has...
 
 00:19:49.949 --> 00:19:51.089
 really given this thought.
 
 00:19:51.170 --> 00:19:52.651
 He sees domestic rebellion.
 
 00:19:52.671 --> 00:19:54.491
 He reads his constitutional duties,
 
 00:19:55.152 --> 00:19:55.692
 but he doesn't have a
 
 00:19:55.752 --> 00:19:57.032
 federal army at his
 
 00:19:57.073 --> 00:19:58.894
 disposal to call upon.
 
 00:19:59.035 --> 00:20:00.675
 He does have some semblance
 
 00:20:00.715 --> 00:20:01.836
 of that with Anthony Wayne,
 
 00:20:01.855 --> 00:20:03.517
 but they're near Cincinnati
 
 00:20:03.557 --> 00:20:05.278
 preparing to fight the
 
 00:20:05.318 --> 00:20:06.459
 Indian warriors of the West.
 
 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:08.339
 So he'll call upon the
 
 00:20:08.380 --> 00:20:10.682
 governors of Pennsylvania, Maryland,
 
 00:20:10.942 --> 00:20:12.363
 New Jersey, and Virginia to
 
 00:20:13.055 --> 00:20:14.175
 And he'll give them a quota
 
 00:20:14.435 --> 00:20:16.196
 and he asked for 15,000 men.
 
 00:20:17.198 --> 00:20:18.419
 These are all state militia.
 
 00:20:18.558 --> 00:20:19.940
 These are not veterans of
 
 00:20:19.980 --> 00:20:21.079
 the American Revolution.
 
 00:20:21.099 --> 00:20:22.361
 They're kind of the next generation.
 
 00:20:24.045 --> 00:20:26.346
 And he'll call up 13,000 of them.
 
 00:20:26.385 --> 00:20:27.105
 And the only reason he
 
 00:20:27.125 --> 00:20:28.705
 doesn't get his 15,000 is
 
 00:20:28.746 --> 00:20:30.125
 because Western
 
 00:20:30.165 --> 00:20:31.426
 Pennsylvania and Western
 
 00:20:31.467 --> 00:20:33.386
 Virginia were part of that quota,
 
 00:20:33.426 --> 00:20:35.407
 and they all went to the rebel side.
 
 00:20:36.788 --> 00:20:38.367
 But he will have a pretty
 
 00:20:38.407 --> 00:20:39.548
 impressive list of people
 
 00:20:39.588 --> 00:20:40.229
 leading the way.
 
 00:20:40.269 --> 00:20:40.648
 Of course,
 
 00:20:40.689 --> 00:20:42.489
 the governors of the different
 
 00:20:42.548 --> 00:20:43.829
 states will lead their armies.
 
 00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:45.089
 And the governor of Virginia
 
 00:20:45.609 --> 00:20:46.829
 is Light Horse Harry Lee.
 
 00:20:48.411 --> 00:20:49.951
 And Light Horse Harry Lee's
 
 00:20:50.191 --> 00:20:51.230
 second in command is going
 
 00:20:51.250 --> 00:20:52.051
 to be Daniel Morgan.
 
 00:20:54.031 --> 00:20:56.512
 These are incredibly
 
 00:20:56.554 --> 00:20:58.494
 important players in the
 
 00:20:58.535 --> 00:20:59.654
 American Revolution,
 
 00:20:59.875 --> 00:21:01.036
 and they're being called up
 
 00:21:01.115 --> 00:21:04.057
 right again just 1794,
 
 00:21:04.057 --> 00:21:06.137
 just a decade after the Revolution ends.
 
 00:21:06.198 --> 00:21:08.199
 But Washington will lead them himself.
 
 00:21:08.219 --> 00:21:09.599
 He has a bad back at the time,
 
 00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:10.721
 so he rides in a carriage.
 
 00:21:11.861 --> 00:21:14.061
 Alexander Hamilton is at his side,
 
 00:21:15.002 --> 00:21:16.203
 as a Treasury Secretary
 
 00:21:16.223 --> 00:21:17.723
 would be right in the field of battle.
 
 00:21:18.105 --> 00:21:18.704
 He's right there.
 
 00:21:20.068 --> 00:21:22.191
 And Washington always had
 
 00:21:22.230 --> 00:21:24.132
 this idea that when he
 
 00:21:24.192 --> 00:21:25.292
 crossed over the mountains
 
 00:21:25.853 --> 00:21:27.233
 that separate Pennsylvania,
 
 00:21:28.275 --> 00:21:29.415
 there's a federal fort there,
 
 00:21:29.455 --> 00:21:30.155
 Fort Bedford,
 
 00:21:30.757 --> 00:21:32.357
 right at the foot of the mountain.
 
 00:21:32.738 --> 00:21:33.878
 And he believed if he got to
 
 00:21:33.898 --> 00:21:35.380
 Bedford and it was still in
 
 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:36.340
 federal control,
 
 00:21:36.941 --> 00:21:38.201
 the rebellion was probably
 
 00:21:38.281 --> 00:21:39.502
 contained in the West.
 
 00:21:39.563 --> 00:21:40.804
 And when he got to Bedford...
 
 00:21:41.324 --> 00:21:42.945
 Bedford threw a big
 
 00:21:43.165 --> 00:21:44.366
 celebration for President
 
 00:21:44.406 --> 00:21:47.128
 Washington and he said,
 
 00:21:47.269 --> 00:21:48.911
 I think we're probably okay.
 
 00:21:48.931 --> 00:21:50.551
 And Washington would go back
 
 00:21:50.592 --> 00:21:51.752
 to Philadelphia at that point.
 
 00:21:52.554 --> 00:21:53.835
 But it was Light Horse Harry
 
 00:21:53.875 --> 00:21:55.395
 Lee and Alexander Hamilton
 
 00:21:55.415 --> 00:21:57.097
 that would march the army
 
 00:21:57.137 --> 00:21:59.138
 the rest of the way into whiskey country,
 
 00:21:59.200 --> 00:21:59.779
 as they called it.
 
 00:22:00.461 --> 00:22:03.702
 And as the army marched in, fortunately,
 
 00:22:04.263 --> 00:22:05.724
 the insurrection kind of
 
 00:22:05.765 --> 00:22:07.105
 lost its spine a bit.
 
 00:22:08.415 --> 00:22:11.198
 rebel leadership fled Pittsburgh.
 
 00:22:11.778 --> 00:22:13.539
 David Bradford escaped down
 
 00:22:13.579 --> 00:22:14.901
 the Ohio and Mississippi
 
 00:22:14.941 --> 00:22:16.923
 into Spanish territory.
 
 00:22:18.182 --> 00:22:19.344
 And he lived in exile there
 
 00:22:19.403 --> 00:22:20.664
 for years as a result.
 
 00:22:21.705 --> 00:22:22.807
 And when the army arrived,
 
 00:22:22.866 --> 00:22:23.647
 I say in my book,
 
 00:22:23.827 --> 00:22:25.068
 they became the largest
 
 00:22:25.128 --> 00:22:26.589
 police force in American history,
 
 00:22:26.589 --> 00:22:26.690
 13,000 men.
 
 00:22:28.310 --> 00:22:29.832
 Because they went on a spree
 
 00:22:29.892 --> 00:22:32.134
 of arresting hundreds of
 
 00:22:32.775 --> 00:22:34.415
 rebels or even suspected rebels.
 
 00:22:35.196 --> 00:22:39.039
 A lot of them without proper due process.
 
 00:22:39.460 --> 00:22:40.540
 They'd keep their men locked
 
 00:22:40.601 --> 00:22:41.801
 in basements without food
 
 00:22:41.842 --> 00:22:43.343
 and water for days at a time.
 
 00:22:43.383 --> 00:22:44.544
 They would march them
 
 00:22:44.584 --> 00:22:45.805
 through rivers and streams.
 
 00:22:45.865 --> 00:22:47.547
 It's wintertime now, November.
 
 00:22:47.547 --> 00:22:50.488
 1793 barefoot just to
 
 00:22:50.528 --> 00:22:51.888
 inflict damage and torment
 
 00:22:52.588 --> 00:22:54.569
 um and that was sort of the
 
 00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:56.269
 you know the the I guess
 
 00:22:56.309 --> 00:22:58.550
 the cost of sedition for
 
 00:22:58.570 --> 00:23:01.271
 them um I should note that
 
 00:23:01.692 --> 00:23:02.712
 in the west they called it
 
 00:23:02.772 --> 00:23:04.513
 the dreadful night yes
 
 00:23:04.673 --> 00:23:05.653
 because it was it was
 
 00:23:06.193 --> 00:23:07.095
 viewed as so cruel and
 
 00:23:07.134 --> 00:23:08.915
 humane but when the federal
 
 00:23:08.955 --> 00:23:10.796
 army or excuse me the state
 
 00:23:10.895 --> 00:23:12.396
 militias came here to to
 
 00:23:12.457 --> 00:23:14.298
 pittsburgh uh they they
 
 00:23:14.657 --> 00:23:16.818
 dropped the hammer very very profoundly
 
 00:23:18.253 --> 00:23:19.114
 How did it get the name of
 
 00:23:19.134 --> 00:23:20.095
 the Watermelon Army?
 
 00:23:21.795 --> 00:23:24.316
 So the Westerners would
 
 00:23:24.375 --> 00:23:25.715
 always try to portray
 
 00:23:25.816 --> 00:23:26.695
 everything that the
 
 00:23:26.776 --> 00:23:29.977
 Easterners did as right as politicians do,
 
 00:23:30.616 --> 00:23:31.897
 as backwards or wrong.
 
 00:23:31.917 --> 00:23:33.238
 And the idea was all these
 
 00:23:33.298 --> 00:23:34.979
 whiskey rebels were
 
 00:23:35.038 --> 00:23:36.338
 Revolutionary War veterans,
 
 00:23:36.659 --> 00:23:38.219
 battle-hardened patriots, right?
 
 00:23:38.259 --> 00:23:40.339
 They were on the good side in their minds.
 
 00:23:40.907 --> 00:23:43.088
 so so the watermelon army
 
 00:23:43.128 --> 00:23:44.189
 was the name that the new
 
 00:23:44.229 --> 00:23:45.189
 jerseyans and the
 
 00:23:45.229 --> 00:23:46.869
 pennsylvanians really more
 
 00:23:46.890 --> 00:23:47.869
 than anyone else got uh
 
 00:23:48.611 --> 00:23:49.411
 because these were young
 
 00:23:49.431 --> 00:23:50.810
 guys and they were not well
 
 00:23:50.911 --> 00:23:51.991
 trained and they were not
 
 00:23:52.132 --> 00:23:53.731
 well uh disciplined and
 
 00:23:53.751 --> 00:23:55.173
 they would they would
 
 00:23:55.212 --> 00:23:57.032
 terrorize farmers on the
 
 00:23:57.093 --> 00:23:59.034
 way to meeting the whiskey
 
 00:23:59.094 --> 00:24:00.374
 rebels they would eat their
 
 00:24:00.473 --> 00:24:02.295
 food tear down their fences they would
 
 00:24:02.674 --> 00:24:03.596
 get in fistfights.
 
 00:24:03.655 --> 00:24:05.458
 We even have an example of a
 
 00:24:05.557 --> 00:24:06.779
 soldier murdering another
 
 00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:07.681
 soldier in a duel,
 
 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.623
 just seemingly because they were bored,
 
 00:24:09.682 --> 00:24:09.883
 right?
 
 00:24:10.523 --> 00:24:11.845
 Sitting around too long.
 
 00:24:12.586 --> 00:24:13.487
 So they were viewed as like
 
 00:24:13.507 --> 00:24:16.109
 an undisciplined bunch of newborns,
 
 00:24:16.170 --> 00:24:16.911
 if you know, if you would.
 
 00:24:17.409 --> 00:24:18.750
 And the Watermelon Army was
 
 00:24:18.809 --> 00:24:20.030
 a label that came to them.
 
 00:24:20.050 --> 00:24:22.511
 It was a pejorative, sort of like,
 
 00:24:22.531 --> 00:24:24.173
 you know, they're out there, you know,
 
 00:24:24.192 --> 00:24:25.193
 we fought the British,
 
 00:24:25.213 --> 00:24:26.795
 they're out there fighting watermelons.
 
 00:24:26.875 --> 00:24:28.455
 Fighting watermelons.
 
 00:24:29.195 --> 00:24:29.355
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:29.395 --> 00:24:30.356
 The governor of New Jersey
 
 00:24:30.396 --> 00:24:31.617
 even wrote a marching song
 
 00:24:31.678 --> 00:24:32.798
 for the New Jersey troops
 
 00:24:32.878 --> 00:24:34.680
 as a way of helping to spur enlistments.
 
 00:24:35.289 --> 00:24:37.411
 Yes, he wrote Onward, Jersey Blues.
 
 00:24:38.751 --> 00:24:38.991
 You know,
 
 00:24:39.011 --> 00:24:40.972
 it's interesting when you look at
 
 00:24:41.113 --> 00:24:42.874
 newspapers in the East Coast,
 
 00:24:43.134 --> 00:24:44.996
 they are resoundingly in
 
 00:24:45.096 --> 00:24:47.196
 favor of suppressing this rebellion.
 
 00:24:47.737 --> 00:24:47.916
 Again,
 
 00:24:47.936 --> 00:24:49.498
 it was never called the Whiskey
 
 00:24:49.577 --> 00:24:50.699
 Rebellion in its time.
 
 00:24:50.798 --> 00:24:52.859
 It was called the Western Insurrection.
 
 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.300
 And from President Washington's viewpoint,
 
 00:24:55.342 --> 00:24:56.721
 look at the terror that's
 
 00:24:56.761 --> 00:24:59.584
 taken over in France, the unrest there.
 
 00:24:59.604 --> 00:25:00.704
 You know, Washington views
 
 00:25:01.653 --> 00:25:02.913
 what's going on on his
 
 00:25:02.973 --> 00:25:05.174
 Western flank as maybe an
 
 00:25:05.234 --> 00:25:06.855
 extension of what's going on in Europe.
 
 00:25:06.915 --> 00:25:07.415
 You know, it looks,
 
 00:25:07.916 --> 00:25:09.577
 if you take that zoomed out view,
 
 00:25:09.657 --> 00:25:10.538
 it looks like the world's
 
 00:25:10.597 --> 00:25:11.939
 burning itself to the ground.
 
 00:25:12.578 --> 00:25:13.599
 And Washington is,
 
 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:15.681
 is very aware that he's the
 
 00:25:15.721 --> 00:25:16.402
 first president.
 
 00:25:16.761 --> 00:25:18.282
 He does not want to lose this Republic.
 
 00:25:19.143 --> 00:25:21.144
 So I think that shadows or
 
 00:25:21.364 --> 00:25:22.424
 colors a lot of his
 
 00:25:22.464 --> 00:25:23.965
 decision-making in the process,
 
 00:25:24.006 --> 00:25:26.047
 but there is strong support
 
 00:25:26.106 --> 00:25:28.087
 for what they end up doing in the East,
 
 00:25:28.147 --> 00:25:28.588
 as you mentioned,
 
 00:25:28.608 --> 00:25:29.989
 especially in New Jersey and New York.
 
 00:25:30.009 --> 00:25:30.150
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:31.457 --> 00:25:32.817
 Yeah, we're talking with Brady Kreitzer,
 
 00:25:32.998 --> 00:25:34.339
 author of The Whiskey Rebellion,
 
 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:35.461
 A Distilled History of an
 
 00:25:35.500 --> 00:25:36.422
 American Crisis.
 
 00:25:36.821 --> 00:25:37.021
 Again,
 
 00:25:37.061 --> 00:25:38.864
 if we just look at what's happening
 
 00:25:39.064 --> 00:25:40.164
 in western Pennsylvania,
 
 00:25:40.204 --> 00:25:41.306
 we see their grievances
 
 00:25:41.385 --> 00:25:43.488
 against this excise tax,
 
 00:25:43.587 --> 00:25:44.769
 which does hit them.
 
 00:25:44.828 --> 00:25:46.109
 But then you're right.
 
 00:25:46.130 --> 00:25:47.131
 There's this bigger picture
 
 00:25:47.151 --> 00:25:48.393
 that Washington is seeing,
 
 00:25:48.512 --> 00:25:50.714
 not only with the native people in Ohio,
 
 00:25:51.375 --> 00:25:51.875
 which, of course,
 
 00:25:51.894 --> 00:25:54.195
 the Pennsylvanians also recognize,
 
 00:25:54.336 --> 00:25:55.675
 but the fact that the
 
 00:25:55.715 --> 00:25:57.537
 British are arming them and
 
 00:25:57.576 --> 00:25:59.037
 that Spain wants to control
 
 00:25:59.057 --> 00:26:00.137
 the Mississippi River and
 
 00:26:00.178 --> 00:26:02.318
 then overall seeing this
 
 00:26:02.378 --> 00:26:03.538
 turmoil in France.
 
 00:26:03.598 --> 00:26:04.878
 And you have Bradford
 
 00:26:04.919 --> 00:26:05.579
 calling himself the
 
 00:26:05.619 --> 00:26:07.000
 Robespierre of America and
 
 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:08.180
 people setting up liberty
 
 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:10.340
 polls and doing other things,
 
 00:26:10.421 --> 00:26:12.342
 which seem to be not simply, hey,
 
 00:26:12.362 --> 00:26:13.442
 we don't like this tax,
 
 00:26:13.521 --> 00:26:15.103
 but let's get rid of all authority.
 
 00:26:15.623 --> 00:26:15.863
 Right.
 
 00:26:16.522 --> 00:26:18.083
 Yeah, it's not really about whiskey,
 
 00:26:18.284 --> 00:26:18.824
 you know, which is...
 
 00:26:20.525 --> 00:26:21.566
 The curious thing about the
 
 00:26:21.605 --> 00:26:22.405
 name of the event,
 
 00:26:22.465 --> 00:26:23.527
 it's about sovereignty.
 
 00:26:23.586 --> 00:26:24.968
 It's about do we have to
 
 00:26:25.048 --> 00:26:26.229
 follow the rules even if we
 
 00:26:26.269 --> 00:26:26.888
 don't like them?
 
 00:26:27.549 --> 00:26:28.369
 And those are the big
 
 00:26:28.430 --> 00:26:29.750
 questions that Americans
 
 00:26:29.770 --> 00:26:30.571
 deal with all the time.
 
 00:26:31.092 --> 00:26:32.452
 And I think this book, I think,
 
 00:26:32.472 --> 00:26:33.493
 hit on that nerve.
 
 00:26:33.913 --> 00:26:34.713
 It's done very well.
 
 00:26:34.733 --> 00:26:35.674
 I'm very grateful for it.
 
 00:26:36.836 --> 00:26:38.436
 It's hit that nerve in kind
 
 00:26:38.457 --> 00:26:39.217
 of the world we live in
 
 00:26:39.277 --> 00:26:40.458
 today for that same reason.
 
 00:26:41.626 --> 00:26:41.886
 Yeah,
 
 00:26:42.207 --> 00:26:43.167
 and then you have people like
 
 00:26:43.327 --> 00:26:45.048
 Gallatin and Finley weighing,
 
 00:26:46.690 --> 00:26:48.230
 so what happens if this
 
 00:26:48.311 --> 00:26:49.652
 area does secede or if we
 
 00:26:49.672 --> 00:26:51.252
 don't have to follow the rules?
 
 00:26:51.334 --> 00:26:53.194
 And if Washington shows he
 
 00:26:53.255 --> 00:26:55.016
 can't enforce the law in a
 
 00:26:55.076 --> 00:26:56.416
 place that doesn't want
 
 00:26:56.457 --> 00:26:58.238
 this particular law enforced?
 
 00:26:58.778 --> 00:26:59.959
 We understand these folks in
 
 00:26:59.999 --> 00:27:01.019
 western Pennsylvania know
 
 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:02.980
 they're going to be outvoted in Congress,
 
 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.281
 but then what's the alternative?
 
 00:27:04.301 --> 00:27:05.123
 And you make the point this
 
 00:27:05.163 --> 00:27:06.983
 is the largest insurrection
 
 00:27:07.044 --> 00:27:08.224
 like this until 1861 when
 
 00:27:08.265 --> 00:27:10.665
 South Carolina was seceded.
 
 00:27:10.787 --> 00:27:11.267
 Absolutely.
 
 00:27:12.528 --> 00:27:12.788
 You know,
 
 00:27:12.847 --> 00:27:16.070
 it's it's a it's a really it's a
 
 00:27:16.111 --> 00:27:16.991
 really compelling thing.
 
 00:27:17.031 --> 00:27:17.531
 Like you said,
 
 00:27:17.672 --> 00:27:19.433
 it's the it's the it's one
 
 00:27:19.453 --> 00:27:20.515
 of the great crises of
 
 00:27:20.595 --> 00:27:22.396
 Washington's presidency of many.
 
 00:27:23.917 --> 00:27:24.618
 It's one of many
 
 00:27:25.078 --> 00:27:26.240
 simultaneous military
 
 00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:28.061
 expeditions going on at the same time.
 
 00:27:28.561 --> 00:27:29.643
 But it's not just a Western
 
 00:27:29.682 --> 00:27:30.763
 Pennsylvania event.
 
 00:27:31.003 --> 00:27:31.223
 I mean,
 
 00:27:31.243 --> 00:27:32.826
 it's the most it's the most
 
 00:27:32.965 --> 00:27:33.547
 venomous here.
 
 00:27:34.166 --> 00:27:35.008
 because I think they have
 
 00:27:35.028 --> 00:27:36.950
 the greatest you know the
 
 00:27:36.990 --> 00:27:37.851
 greatest investment in
 
 00:27:37.911 --> 00:27:39.792
 whiskey overall yeah but in
 
 00:27:39.853 --> 00:27:40.874
 kentucky the federal
 
 00:27:40.913 --> 00:27:42.494
 government saw similar
 
 00:27:42.836 --> 00:27:44.257
 resistance and they deemed
 
 00:27:44.277 --> 00:27:45.598
 the law unenforceable there
 
 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.080
 like just even try um
 
 00:27:48.582 --> 00:27:49.702
 people forget the largest
 
 00:27:49.742 --> 00:27:51.704
 whiskey distiller in america was
 
 00:27:52.125 --> 00:27:54.826
 President Washington at the time.
 
 00:27:55.367 --> 00:27:56.288
 There were people that were
 
 00:27:56.367 --> 00:27:57.388
 following the rules here
 
 00:27:57.409 --> 00:27:59.109
 and paying that tax,
 
 00:27:59.171 --> 00:28:00.451
 but there was a unique
 
 00:28:00.491 --> 00:28:01.491
 collusion of events in
 
 00:28:01.531 --> 00:28:02.573
 Western Pennsylvania,
 
 00:28:02.593 --> 00:28:04.394
 specifically in Western Virginia.
 
 00:28:04.414 --> 00:28:05.255
 I want to stress that.
 
 00:28:06.076 --> 00:28:07.576
 That made it the worst here.
 
 00:28:07.616 --> 00:28:08.337
 There was, of course,
 
 00:28:09.097 --> 00:28:10.739
 the Indian War on the frontier.
 
 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:12.540
 Remember,
 
 00:28:12.560 --> 00:28:14.221
 the British are still posted up
 
 00:28:14.261 --> 00:28:15.462
 in the Northwest Territory.
 
 00:28:15.502 --> 00:28:16.364
 They haven't left yet.
 
 00:28:17.028 --> 00:28:18.348
 The Spanish have closed the
 
 00:28:18.409 --> 00:28:20.290
 Ohio River to commerce.
 
 00:28:20.830 --> 00:28:21.751
 So farmers, again,
 
 00:28:21.811 --> 00:28:23.212
 are feeling the pressure from that.
 
 00:28:23.913 --> 00:28:26.115
 And when you factor those three things in,
 
 00:28:26.256 --> 00:28:26.455
 you know,
 
 00:28:26.476 --> 00:28:27.777
 the whiskey rebellion is just
 
 00:28:27.817 --> 00:28:31.400
 sort of what finally breaks the dam.
 
 00:28:31.560 --> 00:28:34.323
 Too many pressures at once that boil over.
 
 00:28:35.483 --> 00:28:38.987
 So do these rebels ultimately get
 
 00:28:39.914 --> 00:28:41.618
 what they want or are they
 
 00:28:41.679 --> 00:28:42.941
 completely suppressed?
 
 00:28:42.981 --> 00:28:45.165
 The thing about the tax on
 
 00:28:45.205 --> 00:28:47.049
 whiskey as the thing that
 
 00:28:47.089 --> 00:28:48.112
 really motivates them or
 
 00:28:48.291 --> 00:28:49.976
 the thing that pushes them to this point.
 
 00:28:51.121 --> 00:28:51.221
 Well,
 
 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:52.681
 there's a short term and a long term.
 
 00:28:53.561 --> 00:28:54.342
 In the short term,
 
 00:28:54.461 --> 00:28:55.142
 the people that were
 
 00:28:55.182 --> 00:28:56.442
 involved in the rebellion
 
 00:28:56.541 --> 00:28:58.442
 pay a pretty hefty penalty.
 
 00:28:59.063 --> 00:29:00.863
 They literally pay that in fines.
 
 00:29:00.923 --> 00:29:02.523
 Some of them lose their livelihoods,
 
 00:29:02.584 --> 00:29:03.804
 lose their homes and farms.
 
 00:29:04.163 --> 00:29:05.163
 Some of them are arrested.
 
 00:29:05.163 --> 00:29:08.065
 35 men, including Herman Husband,
 
 00:29:08.085 --> 00:29:08.664
 who we mentioned,
 
 00:29:09.144 --> 00:29:09.846
 will be locked in the
 
 00:29:09.885 --> 00:29:11.086
 Walnut Street prison in
 
 00:29:11.125 --> 00:29:12.506
 Philadelphia right by
 
 00:29:12.746 --> 00:29:14.686
 Independence Hall for a year.
 
 00:29:14.707 --> 00:29:16.186
 And Husband will be treated
 
 00:29:16.227 --> 00:29:17.386
 so badly there he'll die
 
 00:29:17.406 --> 00:29:18.907
 about a week after release.
 
 00:29:20.367 --> 00:29:22.470
 So he'll pay the price there, of course.
 
 00:29:23.430 --> 00:29:25.191
 The way it's resolved, however, though,
 
 00:29:25.852 --> 00:29:28.113
 is that it becomes the real
 
 00:29:28.252 --> 00:29:30.474
 fodder for president or at the time,
 
 00:29:31.275 --> 00:29:32.195
 Vice President Thomas
 
 00:29:32.256 --> 00:29:33.737
 Jefferson's presidential run.
 
 00:29:34.356 --> 00:29:35.317
 He'll say this event.
 
 00:29:35.778 --> 00:29:38.099
 is the ultimate in federal overreach,
 
 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:39.800
 the ultimate in abuse of power.
 
 00:29:40.840 --> 00:29:41.981
 You've been led by the hand
 
 00:29:42.021 --> 00:29:43.522
 enough by men like Hamilton
 
 00:29:43.583 --> 00:29:45.844
 and Adams that's turned the
 
 00:29:45.884 --> 00:29:46.964
 reins over to someone who
 
 00:29:46.984 --> 00:29:48.605
 will give the power back to you.
 
 00:29:49.046 --> 00:29:50.086
 And that's actually where we
 
 00:29:50.106 --> 00:29:52.188
 get the name Whiskey Rebellion.
 
 00:29:53.429 --> 00:29:54.609
 Because Jefferson will call
 
 00:29:54.650 --> 00:29:55.589
 it what everyone called it,
 
 00:29:55.711 --> 00:29:57.152
 the Western insurrection.
 
 00:29:58.353 --> 00:30:01.414
 And Hamilton, in an effort to minimize it,
 
 00:30:01.555 --> 00:30:02.695
 will say, well, that, you know,
 
 00:30:02.715 --> 00:30:03.777
 I'm paraphrasing, of course,
 
 00:30:04.317 --> 00:30:05.778
 that really wasn't an insurrection.
 
 00:30:05.818 --> 00:30:07.380
 That was just a little
 
 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:10.563
 whiskey rebellion is what he said.
 
 00:30:10.623 --> 00:30:11.943
 And 230 years later, you know,
 
 00:30:11.983 --> 00:30:14.905
 that political spin is still taking hold.
 
 00:30:14.945 --> 00:30:15.366
 I mean,
 
 00:30:15.386 --> 00:30:17.288
 the book is called The Whiskey Rebellion.
 
 00:30:18.528 --> 00:30:19.509
 Jefferson will be the one
 
 00:30:19.529 --> 00:30:23.737
 that does strike down the law in 1802.
 
 00:30:23.737 --> 00:30:25.140
 And we think about the song
 
 00:30:25.180 --> 00:30:26.141
 about Copper Kettle,
 
 00:30:26.261 --> 00:30:28.505
 and my granddad made whiskey,
 
 00:30:28.566 --> 00:30:30.067
 my granddaddy made it too.
 
 00:30:30.167 --> 00:30:32.010
 We haven't paid no whiskey tax since 1792.
 
 00:30:32.010 --> 00:30:32.372
 Yes, right.
 
 00:30:35.391 --> 00:30:36.132
 We're talking with Brady
 
 00:30:36.192 --> 00:30:37.451
 Kreitzer about his book,
 
 00:30:37.511 --> 00:30:38.432
 The Whiskey Rebellion,
 
 00:30:38.472 --> 00:30:39.432
 A Distilled History of an
 
 00:30:39.452 --> 00:30:40.233
 American Crisis.
 
 00:30:40.653 --> 00:30:41.555
 And one of the things you do
 
 00:30:41.595 --> 00:30:42.494
 really nicely in the book
 
 00:30:42.595 --> 00:30:44.236
 is tell us what we can see
 
 00:30:44.316 --> 00:30:45.856
 if we go to any of these
 
 00:30:45.957 --> 00:30:47.377
 places that you mentioned.
 
 00:30:47.397 --> 00:30:47.538
 I mean,
 
 00:30:47.557 --> 00:30:49.038
 you do have a great map in the book,
 
 00:30:49.459 --> 00:30:50.279
 but then thinking about
 
 00:30:50.339 --> 00:30:51.680
 what the area looked like then,
 
 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:52.740
 what it looks like now,
 
 00:30:52.800 --> 00:30:53.461
 it's one of the great,
 
 00:30:54.521 --> 00:30:55.742
 great things about doing history,
 
 00:30:55.762 --> 00:30:56.542
 but also one of the real
 
 00:30:56.583 --> 00:30:59.424
 challenges when the landscapes change.
 
 00:31:00.244 --> 00:31:01.566
 It's, you know,
 
 00:31:02.337 --> 00:31:05.261
 Preservation here in Western Pennsylvania,
 
 00:31:05.281 --> 00:31:05.821
 especially,
 
 00:31:06.083 --> 00:31:07.944
 always took a backseat to
 
 00:31:08.105 --> 00:31:09.846
 commerce and industry.
 
 00:31:09.866 --> 00:31:12.029
 Pittsburgh, it was the steel city.
 
 00:31:12.509 --> 00:31:13.872
 Before that, it was the iron city.
 
 00:31:14.451 --> 00:31:15.493
 And I always joke before
 
 00:31:15.534 --> 00:31:16.595
 that it was the whiskey city.
 
 00:31:16.634 --> 00:31:18.636
 That's kind of the progression we've had.
 
 00:31:19.238 --> 00:31:20.999
 but people lived with these
 
 00:31:21.078 --> 00:31:22.619
 places they lived in these
 
 00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:24.060
 places the oldest building
 
 00:31:24.121 --> 00:31:25.602
 in pittsburgh is the
 
 00:31:25.622 --> 00:31:26.542
 blockhouse which was
 
 00:31:26.603 --> 00:31:28.544
 attached to fort pitt that
 
 00:31:28.564 --> 00:31:29.884
 was a private residence for
 
 00:31:29.924 --> 00:31:31.266
 most of the 19th century it
 
 00:31:31.306 --> 00:31:33.147
 was it's they're practical
 
 00:31:33.208 --> 00:31:34.167
 people if there's good
 
 00:31:34.208 --> 00:31:35.288
 strong buildings they will
 
 00:31:35.328 --> 00:31:37.411
 live there um and what we
 
 00:31:37.451 --> 00:31:38.191
 have especially in the
 
 00:31:38.230 --> 00:31:39.491
 whiskey rebellion you know
 
 00:31:39.551 --> 00:31:40.512
 compared to a wonderful
 
 00:31:40.553 --> 00:31:42.693
 city like boston uh that
 
 00:31:42.753 --> 00:31:44.355
 has every bit of its
 
 00:31:44.454 --> 00:31:45.576
 revolutionary history
 
 00:31:45.635 --> 00:31:46.656
 marked out and at least
 
 00:31:47.096 --> 00:31:48.917
 attempted to be made
 
 00:31:48.958 --> 00:31:50.419
 available for the public to learn.
 
 00:31:50.898 --> 00:31:52.140
 Many of these places here in
 
 00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:54.240
 the West have been either
 
 00:31:54.300 --> 00:31:55.461
 neglected and have fallen
 
 00:31:55.501 --> 00:31:57.762
 into ruin or are just part
 
 00:31:57.803 --> 00:31:58.844
 of people's lives and they
 
 00:31:58.864 --> 00:31:59.864
 don't even realize it.
 
 00:32:00.865 --> 00:32:02.986
 Anyone who lives in, for example,
 
 00:32:03.046 --> 00:32:04.987
 Western Pennsylvania or the
 
 00:32:05.047 --> 00:32:06.087
 northern panhandle of
 
 00:32:06.147 --> 00:32:07.608
 Western Virginia is
 
 00:32:07.648 --> 00:32:08.828
 probably within 20 minutes
 
 00:32:08.868 --> 00:32:10.089
 of a whiskey rebellion site.
 
 00:32:10.230 --> 00:32:12.131
 And as someone who lived here,
 
 00:32:13.031 --> 00:32:13.912
 I knew where these places
 
 00:32:13.991 --> 00:32:14.712
 were and I thought,
 
 00:32:15.765 --> 00:32:16.924
 you know, it's not a guidebook,
 
 00:32:17.025 --> 00:32:18.566
 but I thought the
 
 00:32:18.586 --> 00:32:20.186
 information was too good not to share,
 
 00:32:20.747 --> 00:32:21.747
 because it's a real
 
 00:32:21.807 --> 00:32:23.107
 connection to kind of the
 
 00:32:23.127 --> 00:32:25.127
 down and dirty state of
 
 00:32:25.228 --> 00:32:26.669
 preservation and historical
 
 00:32:26.729 --> 00:32:28.528
 memory in a place that
 
 00:32:28.568 --> 00:32:30.569
 doesn't get a lot of attention,
 
 00:32:30.809 --> 00:32:32.290
 and certainly in an event
 
 00:32:32.330 --> 00:32:33.711
 that does not get a lot of attention.
 
 00:32:34.991 --> 00:32:35.971
 Yeah, it's true.
 
 00:32:36.211 --> 00:32:37.653
 We've been talking with Brady Kreitzer.
 
 00:32:37.673 --> 00:32:38.893
 I know we've talked about a lot.
 
 00:32:38.932 --> 00:32:39.853
 Is there more?
 
 00:32:39.913 --> 00:32:42.733
 Is there some thing we should tell folks?
 
 00:32:42.794 --> 00:32:44.634
 I mean, we want them to read the book, but
 
 00:32:46.746 --> 00:32:47.726
 Anything we've left out that
 
 00:32:47.766 --> 00:32:49.807
 we should address before we let you go?
 
 00:32:50.527 --> 00:32:50.767
 You know,
 
 00:32:50.807 --> 00:32:52.028
 I always just like to take this
 
 00:32:52.107 --> 00:32:53.469
 moment to remind people,
 
 00:32:55.088 --> 00:32:57.250
 things are not great, right,
 
 00:32:57.869 --> 00:32:58.490
 in the country.
 
 00:32:58.570 --> 00:33:00.151
 And anytime you ask someone
 
 00:33:00.191 --> 00:33:01.291
 that throughout American history,
 
 00:33:01.311 --> 00:33:02.231
 they would probably say that.
 
 00:33:03.113 --> 00:33:05.594
 But the Whiskey Rebellion was terrible.
 
 00:33:06.054 --> 00:33:07.354
 And we survived.
 
 00:33:07.934 --> 00:33:09.595
 You know, we have a constitution.
 
 00:33:09.894 --> 00:33:10.355
 It works.
 
 00:33:10.536 --> 00:33:11.536
 We have to believe in it,
 
 00:33:11.556 --> 00:33:12.676
 put our faith in each other
 
 00:33:12.696 --> 00:33:13.436
 and in democracy.
 
 00:33:14.096 --> 00:33:15.397
 And I think that's kind of
 
 00:33:15.438 --> 00:33:16.219
 the that's kind of the
 
 00:33:16.239 --> 00:33:17.160
 takeaway from the book.
 
 00:33:18.201 --> 00:33:21.023
 But it also underscores a larger idea that,
 
 00:33:21.263 --> 00:33:22.625
 you know, when the revolution ended,
 
 00:33:23.165 --> 00:33:23.747
 in a lot of ways,
 
 00:33:23.787 --> 00:33:24.867
 the work was just beginning.
 
 00:33:26.369 --> 00:33:27.991
 The war was what it was.
 
 00:33:28.031 --> 00:33:29.794
 It was difficult and it was victorious.
 
 00:33:29.854 --> 00:33:31.776
 But but keeping a republic
 
 00:33:31.976 --> 00:33:34.459
 is the real challenge of our system,
 
 00:33:34.479 --> 00:33:35.519
 but also the beauty of it.
 
 00:33:36.657 --> 00:33:37.259
 It really is.
 
 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:39.359
 And we've seen over the last, well,
 
 00:33:40.320 --> 00:33:41.701
 seen over long history that
 
 00:33:42.603 --> 00:33:44.184
 even though it seems very difficult,
 
 00:33:44.244 --> 00:33:46.105
 toppling the bad old regime
 
 00:33:46.326 --> 00:33:47.426
 is easier than setting up
 
 00:33:47.527 --> 00:33:48.448
 one that won't be worse.
 
 00:33:48.548 --> 00:33:49.308
 And that's one of the
 
 00:33:49.648 --> 00:33:51.131
 marvels of our revolution
 
 00:33:51.310 --> 00:33:52.711
 is that the system that
 
 00:33:52.751 --> 00:33:53.613
 emerges and emerges
 
 00:33:53.673 --> 00:33:54.574
 actually partly through
 
 00:33:54.933 --> 00:33:57.556
 crises like this doesn't
 
 00:33:57.635 --> 00:33:58.557
 allow the regime to
 
 00:34:00.422 --> 00:34:02.483
 since then to lock people up for a year.
 
 00:34:04.585 --> 00:34:05.786
 Do you think Hamilton, by the way,
 
 00:34:05.806 --> 00:34:06.787
 do you think the Washington
 
 00:34:06.807 --> 00:34:11.150
 administration was overreacting?
 
 00:34:11.469 --> 00:34:14.373
 It is some difficulty with this.
 
 00:34:14.432 --> 00:34:15.793
 I think Hamilton had a vision.
 
 00:34:15.914 --> 00:34:17.715
 I also think he may have
 
 00:34:17.735 --> 00:34:18.835
 gotten the result he wanted.
 
 00:34:19.635 --> 00:34:21.818
 As early as 1792,
 
 00:34:21.818 --> 00:34:23.498
 if you look at the meetings
 
 00:34:23.539 --> 00:34:24.260
 and the documents,
 
 00:34:24.721 --> 00:34:27.242
 Hamilton is advocating military response,
 
 00:34:27.804 --> 00:34:28.583
 and he's advocating
 
 00:34:28.623 --> 00:34:29.885
 military response at a time
 
 00:34:29.945 --> 00:34:31.206
 when men like Edmund
 
 00:34:31.246 --> 00:34:32.467
 Randolph and President
 
 00:34:32.507 --> 00:34:34.610
 Washington are saying this
 
 00:34:34.690 --> 00:34:37.411
 is beyond a reasonable reaction to this.
 
 00:34:38.992 --> 00:34:41.014
 So there were things put
 
 00:34:41.275 --> 00:34:44.737
 into this law by Hamilton
 
 00:34:44.757 --> 00:34:46.420
 that I think were intended
 
 00:34:46.460 --> 00:34:47.780
 to be controversial,
 
 00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:48.501
 intended to be controversial.
 
 00:34:49.001 --> 00:34:50.342
 maybe incendiary to the West.
 
 00:34:50.902 --> 00:34:54.224
 But I do think Hamilton, like Washington,
 
 00:34:54.266 --> 00:34:55.626
 believed that Westerners
 
 00:34:56.146 --> 00:34:58.487
 posed a real threat of
 
 00:34:59.409 --> 00:35:00.929
 aligning with the Spanish
 
 00:35:00.969 --> 00:35:03.411
 more than their own country.
 
 00:35:03.672 --> 00:35:05.713
 And Hamilton viewed this as
 
 00:35:05.773 --> 00:35:07.954
 a way of maybe making them bend the knee,
 
 00:35:08.054 --> 00:35:09.335
 making them accept the
 
 00:35:09.375 --> 00:35:10.755
 sovereignty of the federal government.
 
 00:35:12.778 --> 00:35:14.282
 Hamilton was a very partisan man.
 
 00:35:14.302 --> 00:35:16.184
 He believed in the strength
 
 00:35:16.206 --> 00:35:17.126
 of the federal government.
 
 00:35:17.146 --> 00:35:18.851
 He believed in that a
 
 00:35:18.891 --> 00:35:20.695
 military response was justified.
 
 00:35:23.003 --> 00:35:23.384
 And again,
 
 00:35:23.443 --> 00:35:25.105
 the fact that he had such a
 
 00:35:25.224 --> 00:35:27.666
 personal attachment to the event,
 
 00:35:28.286 --> 00:35:29.746
 and he even kept a list of
 
 00:35:29.827 --> 00:35:30.507
 people he called,
 
 00:35:30.527 --> 00:35:31.947
 and this is a direct quote,
 
 00:35:31.967 --> 00:35:33.128
 he called them the big fish.
 
 00:35:33.889 --> 00:35:35.849
 He wanted to see arrested and hanged.
 
 00:35:36.610 --> 00:35:37.809
 And they were just, by chance,
 
 00:35:37.869 --> 00:35:40.231
 his great political enemies.
 
 00:35:40.251 --> 00:35:43.632
 So, you know, like I said, in the musical,
 
 00:35:43.672 --> 00:35:44.572
 I think there's a reason
 
 00:35:44.612 --> 00:35:46.213
 they glance or gloss over
 
 00:35:46.273 --> 00:35:47.695
 this event because it helps
 
 00:35:47.735 --> 00:35:48.574
 the story a little bit.
 
 00:35:49.510 --> 00:35:50.753
 yeah yeah it really does
 
 00:35:50.813 --> 00:35:51.653
 make him a different
 
 00:35:51.733 --> 00:35:54.878
 character and uh than than
 
 00:35:54.898 --> 00:35:55.599
 the guy we see in the
 
 00:35:55.639 --> 00:36:00.063
 musical so uh uh by the way
 
 00:36:00.103 --> 00:36:01.025
 were there any foreign
 
 00:36:01.085 --> 00:36:03.327
 responses did britain for
 
 00:36:03.427 --> 00:36:04.329
 any of the other countries
 
 00:36:04.369 --> 00:36:05.811
 take note of this or was it
 
 00:36:06.211 --> 00:36:08.394
 um you know that's really interesting
 
 00:36:09.726 --> 00:36:10.606
 Britain and France are going
 
 00:36:10.626 --> 00:36:11.728
 to view this very differently.
 
 00:36:12.427 --> 00:36:13.907
 And that's obvious because
 
 00:36:13.927 --> 00:36:15.009
 of the situation of what's
 
 00:36:15.048 --> 00:36:15.768
 going on there.
 
 00:36:16.188 --> 00:36:17.068
 The French are going to be
 
 00:36:17.128 --> 00:36:17.969
 sympathetic with the
 
 00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:20.610
 Westerners for obvious reasons.
 
 00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:21.610
 The British view
 
 00:36:21.731 --> 00:36:23.451
 Washington's response as
 
 00:36:23.990 --> 00:36:25.672
 correct and also too late.
 
 00:36:26.612 --> 00:36:27.873
 He should have sent in
 
 00:36:27.914 --> 00:36:29.255
 troops much earlier.
 
 00:36:29.875 --> 00:36:31.757
 And that was the general feeling.
 
 00:36:31.777 --> 00:36:32.617
 And again,
 
 00:36:32.637 --> 00:36:34.059
 you could probably gather why
 
 00:36:34.099 --> 00:36:34.920
 based on the kind of
 
 00:36:35.221 --> 00:36:36.260
 political makeup of both
 
 00:36:36.442 --> 00:36:37.443
 places at the time.
 
 00:36:37.682 --> 00:36:38.043
 Generally,
 
 00:36:38.063 --> 00:36:40.545
 the monarchists of Europe were
 
 00:36:40.606 --> 00:36:42.206
 supportive of what Washington did,
 
 00:36:42.266 --> 00:36:43.208
 because quite honestly,
 
 00:36:43.228 --> 00:36:44.248
 it's probably what they would have done.
 
 00:36:44.728 --> 00:36:45.289
 Right, right.
 
 00:36:46.507 --> 00:36:47.887
 We've been talking with Brady Kreitzer.
 
 00:36:47.907 --> 00:36:49.289
 We can keep going on all day, I think,
 
 00:36:49.329 --> 00:36:50.228
 probably talking about this,
 
 00:36:50.268 --> 00:36:51.929
 but we know you have a life
 
 00:36:51.969 --> 00:36:52.610
 to get back to.
 
 00:36:53.849 --> 00:36:54.530
 Brady Kreitzer,
 
 00:36:54.590 --> 00:36:55.971
 author of The Whiskey Rebellion,
 
 00:36:56.010 --> 00:36:57.971
 A Distilled History of an American Crisis,
 
 00:36:58.231 --> 00:37:00.092
 as well as many other books.
 
 00:37:00.431 --> 00:37:02.112
 And so thanks so much for joining us,
 
 00:37:02.152 --> 00:37:02.353
 Brady.
 
 00:37:02.373 --> 00:37:03.773
 It's been great talking with you.
 
 00:37:04.246 --> 00:37:04.806
 Thank you, Paul.
 
 00:37:04.847 --> 00:37:05.806
 I appreciate the chance.
 
 00:37:06.768 --> 00:37:07.728
 And I should also mention
 
 00:37:07.748 --> 00:37:09.510
 that you are featured in
 
 00:37:09.570 --> 00:37:11.931
 the new Fox Nation series,
 
 00:37:12.092 --> 00:37:12.932
 Young Washington,
 
 00:37:12.952 --> 00:37:13.393
 because you've written
 
 00:37:13.413 --> 00:37:14.954
 about major Washington's Pittsburgh.
 
 00:37:15.394 --> 00:37:17.257
 And as you said, you really are.
 
 00:37:18.938 --> 00:37:19.958
 This is kind of the bookend
 
 00:37:20.059 --> 00:37:21.940
 from the Seven Years War to
 
 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.001
 the Whiskey Rebellion.
 
 00:37:23.041 --> 00:37:25.523
 That's a great period in American history.
 
 00:37:26.925 --> 00:37:28.146
 So thank you so much for joining us.
 
 00:37:28.206 --> 00:37:29.545
 And thank you to Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:37:29.585 --> 00:37:30.206
 our producer,
 
 00:37:30.666 --> 00:37:32.927
 and to our listeners around the world.
 
 00:37:33.007 --> 00:37:34.186
 So every week I thank some
 
 00:37:34.266 --> 00:37:36.628
 of you folks who are tuning in regularly.
 
 00:37:36.708 --> 00:37:37.288
 And if you're in one of
 
 00:37:37.307 --> 00:37:38.367
 these places and want some
 
 00:37:38.407 --> 00:37:40.108
 of our Revolution 250 swag,
 
 00:37:40.128 --> 00:37:41.509
 send Jonathan Lane an email,
 
 00:37:41.949 --> 00:37:44.688
 jlane at revolution250.org.
 
 00:37:45.509 --> 00:37:47.809
 And this week, folks in Halifax,
 
 00:37:47.869 --> 00:37:50.369
 Nova Scotia, Uint, New Jersey, Hingham,
 
 00:37:50.389 --> 00:37:52.690
 Massachusetts, Latrobe, Pennsylvania,
 
 00:37:52.730 --> 00:37:53.451
 which is actually the
 
 00:37:53.710 --> 00:37:54.971
 hometown of William Findlay.
 
 00:37:55.411 --> 00:37:55.590
 Great.
 
 00:37:56.451 --> 00:37:58.793
 mulga oklahoma pattaya in
 
 00:37:58.853 --> 00:38:00.655
 thailand tel aviv rio de
 
 00:38:00.695 --> 00:38:03.840
 janeiro takasaki japan in
 
 00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:05.242
 michigan detroit and ann
 
 00:38:05.342 --> 00:38:06.804
 arbor omaha nebraska
 
 00:38:06.864 --> 00:38:08.385
 louisburg north carolina
 
 00:38:08.846 --> 00:38:09.806
 and places beyond and
 
 00:38:09.847 --> 00:38:10.849
 between thanks for joining
 
 00:38:10.909 --> 00:38:12.371
 us now we will be piped out
 
 00:38:12.550 --> 00:38:13.411
 on the road to boston