Revolution 250 Podcast

Worlds Turned Upside Down with Jim Ambuske

James Ambuske Season 5 Episode 17

A story from the 19th century told that British soldiers marched off the surrender ground  at Yorktown  to the tune of "The World Turned Upside Down."  Whether true or not is beside the point.  The world may indeed have seemed upside down.  To help us come to grips with the myriad of ways in which life in the British Atlantic world changed, we talk with historian  James Patrick Ambuske, producer and narrator for the "Worlds Turned Upside Down" podcast, a production of R2 Studios at the Rosenzweig Center for History and New Media at George Mason University.  Jim Ambuske is also the co-director of the  Scottish Court of Sessions Digital Archives, and other projects to inspire historians. 

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WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
 
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 I am Bob Allison.
 
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 I chair the Rev 250 advisory group.
 
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 I also teach at Suffolk University.
 
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 Revolution 250 is a
 
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 consortium of 75 plus
 
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 organizations in
 
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 Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of the
 
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 American Revolution.
 
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 And our guest today is Jim Amboski.
 
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 By the way, Jim, I should have asked,
 
 00:00:22.027 --> 00:00:23.149
 is that how you pronounce your name?
 
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 You're like one of the few
 
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 people who actually got it
 
 00:00:25.350 --> 00:00:26.170
 right on the first try.
 
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 So thank you very much.
 
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 You're welcome.
 
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 You're welcome.
 
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 And Jim is the historian,
 
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 senior producer of Worlds
 
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 Turned Upside Down.
 
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 He also is the,
 
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 he works at the Roy
 
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 Rosenzweig Center for
 
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 History and New Media at
 
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 George Mason University.
 
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 Your doctorate's from UVA,
 
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 and then you did your
 
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 undergraduate work and your
 
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 master's at Miami University in Ohio.
 
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 So welcome, Jim.
 
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 Well, thank you very much, Bob,
 
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 for having me.
 
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 And I'm
 
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 Really excited to have this conversation.
 
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 It's great.
 
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 So Worlds Turned Upside Down
 
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 is a terrific podcast that
 
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 tells the story of the
 
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 revolution with historians, drama,
 
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 you do narration.
 
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 You have a great voice, by the way.
 
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 Thanks.
 
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 Yeah.
 
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 It was a
 
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 An idea I had actually in my
 
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 previous job when I was at
 
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 George Washington's Mount Vernon,
 
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 but it wasn't going to be a
 
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 series that would be really
 
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 kind of fit for Mount Vernon.
 
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 I was much more interested
 
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 in telling an expansive
 
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 story that didn't
 
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 necessarily focus on George Washington.
 
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 And I was also...
 
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 Had the back of my mind, well,
 
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 with the coming 250th of the revolution,
 
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 well, maybe I'll write a book,
 
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 a kind of big synthesis
 
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 that would appeal to public audiences.
 
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 And I have to say, and as you know,
 
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 and as some of your audience members know,
 
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 it's very tough to write a book.
 
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 And I'm having a...
 
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 difficult enough time to
 
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 write that first book.
 
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 But also I had gotten into
 
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 podcasting at Mount Vernon and I thought,
 
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 well,
 
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 maybe this could be a podcast series.
 
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 And when the opportunity
 
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 came up to move to George Mason in 2022,
 
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 I brought this idea with me.
 
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 And we really wanted to leverage
 
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 all of the good and amazing
 
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 scholarship and new
 
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 discoveries in the last 20,
 
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 25 years to create an
 
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 expansive story that really
 
 00:02:13.336 --> 00:02:14.175
 challenged what people
 
 00:02:14.216 --> 00:02:15.016
 thought they knew about the
 
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 revolution of simply not a
 
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 story about the birth of
 
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 the United States, but really, you know,
 
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 from our perspective,
 
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 an empire that fell apart
 
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 of a transatlantic crisis
 
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 and imperial civil war that
 
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 shaped the lives of
 
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 thousands and millions of people.
 
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 Jim Collison, Right.
 
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 Yeah,
 
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 I was just listening to the first
 
 00:02:32.461 --> 00:02:34.304
 episode about Jumanville, Len,
 
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 and the way you tell that story,
 
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 it's really, it's as though you're there.
 
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 Tim Grahl, Oh, good.
 
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 Yeah, and it's, it's a great,
 
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 it's a really
 
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 a terrific example of what
 
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 we're trying to do with the
 
 00:02:46.985 --> 00:02:47.986
 series overall.
 
 00:02:48.106 --> 00:02:48.347
 I mean,
 
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 most of the times when we start the
 
 00:02:50.068 --> 00:02:51.368
 story of the Seven Years' War,
 
 00:02:51.408 --> 00:02:52.628
 which creates the
 
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 conditions for the revolution,
 
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 it starts with Washington
 
 00:02:55.591 --> 00:02:56.411
 and Jumovie Glenn.
 
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 We wanted to ask the question,
 
 00:02:58.472 --> 00:02:59.173
 what if we started that
 
 00:02:59.212 --> 00:03:00.133
 story from Jumovie's
 
 00:03:00.173 --> 00:03:01.933
 perspective as he's lying there wounded?
 
 00:03:02.734 --> 00:03:04.474
 And what possibilities does
 
 00:03:04.514 --> 00:03:06.056
 that open up for telling
 
 00:03:06.075 --> 00:03:08.016
 our audiences about New France,
 
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 about indigenous cultures,
 
 00:03:09.837 --> 00:03:11.618
 and about why those guys
 
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 are there in the first place?
 
 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:14.881
 And, you know,
 
 00:03:15.002 --> 00:03:15.943
 use that as a very clear
 
 00:03:16.022 --> 00:03:16.924
 signal that this is going
 
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 to be a little different
 
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 than what you've heard before.
 
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 Right.
 
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 Because when you start with Washington,
 
 00:03:20.889 --> 00:03:22.890
 it also preordains where
 
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 the story is going.
 
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 Right.
 
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 We know how it turns out.
 
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 Right.
 
 00:03:25.895 --> 00:03:28.138
 No one at that no one in
 
 00:03:28.138 --> 00:03:29.118
 1754 knew how any of this
 
 00:03:29.179 --> 00:03:30.060
 was going to turn out.
 
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 Right, right.
 
 00:03:31.234 --> 00:03:32.936
 Washington is an ambitious
 
 00:03:32.975 --> 00:03:35.438
 young Virginia aristocrat
 
 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:37.020
 who has aspirations to get
 
 00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:38.241
 a red coat and a commission
 
 00:03:38.282 --> 00:03:39.002
 in the British Army,
 
 00:03:39.924 --> 00:03:42.887
 and he's not at that moment
 
 00:03:42.926 --> 00:03:44.109
 the man he will become.
 
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 But as you're absolutely right,
 
 00:03:46.771 --> 00:03:47.652
 we are sometimes
 
 00:03:47.712 --> 00:03:49.313
 preconditioned that if we start with that
 
 00:03:49.955 --> 00:03:51.536
 version of the story, well,
 
 00:03:51.556 --> 00:03:52.795
 we know where it's going to go.
 
 00:03:53.637 --> 00:03:55.578
 Let's see if we can trouble the narrative,
 
 00:03:55.758 --> 00:03:56.758
 as the great historian Bill
 
 00:03:56.798 --> 00:03:57.758
 Cronin likes to say,
 
 00:03:58.399 --> 00:03:59.599
 and mess with people's
 
 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:01.080
 assumptions and lead them
 
 00:04:01.600 --> 00:04:02.700
 to different possibilities.
 
 00:04:03.382 --> 00:04:03.861
 Right.
 
 00:04:04.322 --> 00:04:05.242
 And so how has your
 
 00:04:05.282 --> 00:04:06.122
 understanding of all of
 
 00:04:06.182 --> 00:04:07.264
 this changed as you've been
 
 00:04:07.343 --> 00:04:08.463
 doing the series,
 
 00:04:08.524 --> 00:04:09.305
 trying to look at it from
 
 00:04:09.365 --> 00:04:10.365
 different points of view,
 
 00:04:10.384 --> 00:04:11.224
 different perspectives,
 
 00:04:11.284 --> 00:04:12.205
 and trouble the narrative?
 
 00:04:12.938 --> 00:04:13.860
 It's a terrific question.
 
 00:04:13.939 --> 00:04:14.379
 And actually,
 
 00:04:14.419 --> 00:04:15.480
 the first three episodes are
 
 00:04:15.561 --> 00:04:17.262
 emblematic of my kind of
 
 00:04:17.422 --> 00:04:19.242
 own journey and developed this series.
 
 00:04:19.584 --> 00:04:20.463
 The original idea for the
 
 00:04:20.483 --> 00:04:22.906
 series is that episode one
 
 00:04:22.946 --> 00:04:24.526
 would essentially be the
 
 00:04:24.666 --> 00:04:26.668
 climactic end of the Seven Years' War.
 
 00:04:27.348 --> 00:04:28.990
 But during the interview process,
 
 00:04:29.069 --> 00:04:30.411
 we talked to Christiane
 
 00:04:30.451 --> 00:04:31.692
 Crouch at Bard College,
 
 00:04:31.752 --> 00:04:33.752
 a terrific scholar of New
 
 00:04:33.812 --> 00:04:35.074
 France in the 18th century,
 
 00:04:35.134 --> 00:04:37.235
 particularly thinking about
 
 00:04:37.555 --> 00:04:39.036
 masculinity and martial valor.
 
 00:04:39.978 --> 00:04:40.939
 That interview was
 
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 revelatory in the sense
 
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 that she talked a lot about
 
 00:04:45.124 --> 00:04:46.386
 why New France or why
 
 00:04:46.466 --> 00:04:47.468
 French colonists were so
 
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 adept at working with
 
 00:04:48.548 --> 00:04:50.211
 native peoples of what
 
 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:51.372
 native peoples had on their
 
 00:04:51.473 --> 00:04:53.596
 own agendas vis-a-vis of
 
 00:04:53.656 --> 00:04:54.937
 both the British and the French.
 
 00:04:55.538 --> 00:04:57.398
 And why the French were able to,
 
 00:04:59.459 --> 00:05:02.718
 essentially, up until 1754, they were,
 
 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:03.980
 I guess you could arguably say,
 
 00:05:04.019 --> 00:05:05.139
 the most dominant European
 
 00:05:05.180 --> 00:05:06.100
 power in North America,
 
 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:07.821
 despite their relatively
 
 00:05:07.860 --> 00:05:09.000
 small population.
 
 00:05:09.521 --> 00:05:11.060
 So that is a great example
 
 00:05:11.201 --> 00:05:12.781
 of following your sources.
 
 00:05:13.362 --> 00:05:14.281
 And in any case,
 
 00:05:14.362 --> 00:05:16.322
 Christiane was a key source for us.
 
 00:05:16.822 --> 00:05:18.103
 It led us to rethink the
 
 00:05:18.142 --> 00:05:19.762
 first three episodes and
 
 00:05:19.802 --> 00:05:21.083
 really say to ourselves, all right,
 
 00:05:21.682 --> 00:05:22.504
 if we're really going to do
 
 00:05:22.564 --> 00:05:24.043
 this in a way that we...
 
 00:05:24.783 --> 00:05:25.684
 that to meet the promise
 
 00:05:25.704 --> 00:05:26.725
 that we've set for ourselves,
 
 00:05:27.345 --> 00:05:28.805
 let's actually tell the
 
 00:05:28.845 --> 00:05:30.045
 story of the Seven Years
 
 00:05:30.086 --> 00:05:31.406
 War and in three episodes.
 
 00:05:31.526 --> 00:05:31.646
 Right.
 
 00:05:32.005 --> 00:05:34.146
 And leverage all this great
 
 00:05:34.166 --> 00:05:35.406
 stuff that Christians has
 
 00:05:35.447 --> 00:05:37.247
 given us and and then to
 
 00:05:37.327 --> 00:05:38.648
 rethink the series from there.
 
 00:05:38.887 --> 00:05:42.608
 And it's been it was the right decision.
 
 00:05:42.629 --> 00:05:43.189
 Right.
 
 00:05:43.389 --> 00:05:43.970
 At the end of the day.
 
 00:05:43.990 --> 00:05:44.709
 Right.
 
 00:05:45.113 --> 00:05:45.634
 Yeah,
 
 00:05:45.754 --> 00:05:47.755
 I don't want to deprive anyone of the
 
 00:05:47.795 --> 00:05:48.737
 surprise you get from
 
 00:05:48.776 --> 00:05:49.697
 listening to the world's
 
 00:05:49.776 --> 00:05:50.838
 turned upside down,
 
 00:05:50.918 --> 00:05:51.978
 but there are other things
 
 00:05:52.019 --> 00:05:53.220
 that change as you've gone
 
 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:54.740
 along from the first three episodes.
 
 00:05:55.742 --> 00:05:57.543
 Yeah, I think so.
 
 00:05:58.584 --> 00:06:01.906
 We have been, I wouldn't say changed,
 
 00:06:01.966 --> 00:06:03.026
 but we've been found ways
 
 00:06:03.067 --> 00:06:03.947
 to implement more
 
 00:06:03.987 --> 00:06:05.949
 concretely than we had
 
 00:06:05.970 --> 00:06:08.050
 originally imagined in terms of, you know,
 
 00:06:08.430 --> 00:06:10.312
 we're on a video podcast right now.
 
 00:06:10.372 --> 00:06:11.754
 And so if we were to pull up a map of,
 
 00:06:12.274 --> 00:06:13.194
 We could easily see it.
 
 00:06:13.295 --> 00:06:16.916
 But in our case, our show is audio only.
 
 00:06:16.997 --> 00:06:19.658
 And so we are thinking very
 
 00:06:19.718 --> 00:06:20.459
 creatively about how to
 
 00:06:20.499 --> 00:06:22.720
 describe visual resources like maps.
 
 00:06:23.939 --> 00:06:25.500
 There's a powder horn that
 
 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:27.041
 comes up in episode three
 
 00:06:27.101 --> 00:06:28.783
 that was just a fun
 
 00:06:28.862 --> 00:06:29.903
 challenge to figure out.
 
 00:06:30.564 --> 00:06:31.904
 And it's how to make all
 
 00:06:31.944 --> 00:06:33.745
 this work in a compelling way.
 
 00:06:34.434 --> 00:06:34.793
 That's good.
 
 00:06:35.233 --> 00:06:36.473
 So we're talking with Jim
 
 00:06:36.514 --> 00:06:38.334
 Amboski from the Roy
 
 00:06:38.355 --> 00:06:39.394
 Rosenzweig Center for
 
 00:06:39.435 --> 00:06:40.514
 History and New Media at
 
 00:06:40.555 --> 00:06:44.435
 George Mason University, the historian,
 
 00:06:44.516 --> 00:06:45.896
 senior producer for The
 
 00:06:45.935 --> 00:06:48.536
 World's Turned Upside Down Project.
 
 00:06:48.735 --> 00:06:49.637
 And again,
 
 00:06:49.697 --> 00:06:51.516
 you have your hands in a lot of
 
 00:06:51.656 --> 00:06:53.536
 things in the 18th century, well,
 
 00:06:53.617 --> 00:06:54.476
 even 19th century.
 
 00:06:54.497 --> 00:06:55.798
 Another of your projects is
 
 00:06:55.838 --> 00:07:00.017
 the 1828 catalog for Jefferson,
 
 00:07:00.117 --> 00:07:02.658
 the library Jefferson created for UVA.
 
 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:03.759
 So that's an interesting
 
 00:07:04.303 --> 00:07:04.624
 idea.
 
 00:07:04.843 --> 00:07:05.345
 Yeah,
 
 00:07:05.425 --> 00:07:06.845
 so I'm happy to talk a little bit
 
 00:07:06.865 --> 00:07:07.466
 about that.
 
 00:07:07.586 --> 00:07:09.045
 So that was during my
 
 00:07:09.367 --> 00:07:10.406
 postdoctoral fellowship
 
 00:07:10.427 --> 00:07:11.468
 days at the University of
 
 00:07:11.507 --> 00:07:12.687
 Virginia Law Library.
 
 00:07:12.708 --> 00:07:15.410
 And as many folks might know,
 
 00:07:15.509 --> 00:07:17.069
 but they can go on the
 
 00:07:17.110 --> 00:07:18.151
 website and learn more
 
 00:07:18.211 --> 00:07:20.351
 there at the 1828 Catalog Project,
 
 00:07:20.492 --> 00:07:22.132
 is that when Jefferson was
 
 00:07:22.173 --> 00:07:23.473
 designing the University of
 
 00:07:23.514 --> 00:07:24.634
 Virginia in the 1820s, he had a very
 
 00:07:27.384 --> 00:07:29.225
 he had a very clear idea
 
 00:07:29.305 --> 00:07:31.288
 about how he wanted the law to be taught.
 
 00:07:32.369 --> 00:07:34.430
 And by the 19th century,
 
 00:07:34.571 --> 00:07:36.192
 as Jefferson is becoming more
 
 00:07:39.836 --> 00:07:40.817
 curious to know if the
 
 00:07:40.858 --> 00:07:42.137
 Republican is going to survive.
 
 00:07:42.177 --> 00:07:44.379
 He's more afraid of what the
 
 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:45.740
 federal government's going to do.
 
 00:07:46.180 --> 00:07:47.439
 He's also increasingly
 
 00:07:47.521 --> 00:07:49.862
 concerned that British law
 
 00:07:50.461 --> 00:07:52.742
 in the 18th century, such that it exists,
 
 00:07:52.783 --> 00:07:54.103
 there really isn't British law,
 
 00:07:54.142 --> 00:07:55.863
 but we'll just use that term,
 
 00:07:56.463 --> 00:07:58.785
 that English judicial
 
 00:07:58.824 --> 00:08:00.286
 decisions from the reign of
 
 00:08:00.326 --> 00:08:01.766
 George III onward and other
 
 00:08:02.166 --> 00:08:04.968
 have essentially infected American law.
 
 00:08:05.067 --> 00:08:06.309
 And that American jurists
 
 00:08:06.369 --> 00:08:07.749
 like his nemesis and cousin,
 
 00:08:07.809 --> 00:08:08.509
 John Marshall,
 
 00:08:09.230 --> 00:08:11.050
 is using this case law to
 
 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:13.711
 make decisions in American courts.
 
 00:08:14.692 --> 00:08:17.713
 And what Jefferson says is, no,
 
 00:08:17.733 --> 00:08:18.973
 we can't be having that.
 
 00:08:19.153 --> 00:08:20.774
 The purest expression of our
 
 00:08:20.834 --> 00:08:22.836
 law as it was at the time
 
 00:08:22.896 --> 00:08:24.636
 of the colonial founding in
 
 00:08:24.656 --> 00:08:26.737
 the 17th century was by Sir Edward Cook.
 
 00:08:27.257 --> 00:08:28.937
 And so we want to design a
 
 00:08:28.997 --> 00:08:30.639
 curriculum that focuses on Cook.
 
 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:32.419
 Lawyers out there will know
 
 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:33.519
 that Cook is a very,
 
 00:08:33.580 --> 00:08:35.780
 very dense individual.
 
 00:08:36.437 --> 00:08:37.437
 compared to Blackstone,
 
 00:08:37.898 --> 00:08:38.837
 which is very readable.
 
 00:08:39.238 --> 00:08:40.578
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:41.919
 And Jefferson constructed
 
 00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:43.559
 and personally chose the
 
 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:45.921
 books for the legal library
 
 00:08:45.941 --> 00:08:47.581
 at UVA in the 1820s to
 
 00:08:48.001 --> 00:08:48.982
 realize his vision.
 
 00:08:50.082 --> 00:08:51.423
 So the project was already
 
 00:08:51.443 --> 00:08:52.604
 underway by the time I got there.
 
 00:08:52.624 --> 00:08:54.085
 My colleague, Dr. Randy Flaherty,
 
 00:08:54.125 --> 00:08:55.065
 who is now head of special
 
 00:08:55.105 --> 00:08:56.505
 collections at the Lowell Library,
 
 00:08:57.186 --> 00:08:59.086
 had begun this during her
 
 00:08:59.126 --> 00:09:00.607
 own postdoctoral fellowship.
 
 00:09:01.067 --> 00:09:01.948
 And then my colleague and I,
 
 00:09:01.989 --> 00:09:02.649
 Lauren Moulds,
 
 00:09:03.288 --> 00:09:05.432
 began to try to realize the
 
 00:09:05.491 --> 00:09:07.514
 digital version of it.
 
 00:09:07.553 --> 00:09:09.154
 The digital version of it is
 
 00:09:09.475 --> 00:09:10.596
 essentially a website that
 
 00:09:10.636 --> 00:09:12.038
 allows you to browse the
 
 00:09:12.097 --> 00:09:14.081
 books that would have been on the shelf.
 
 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:15.841
 Many of them have been digitized.
 
 00:09:15.881 --> 00:09:17.024
 Many of them are in the
 
 00:09:17.104 --> 00:09:19.745
 special collections at the Law Library.
 
 00:09:19.947 --> 00:09:21.187
 The goal with it was to help
 
 00:09:21.668 --> 00:09:23.428
 show how Jefferson was
 
 00:09:23.509 --> 00:09:24.908
 responding to these changes
 
 00:09:24.948 --> 00:09:25.749
 that he abhorred in the
 
 00:09:25.928 --> 00:09:27.570
 19th century by creating a
 
 00:09:27.649 --> 00:09:29.009
 legal framework through
 
 00:09:29.049 --> 00:09:31.030
 education that would allow the Union,
 
 00:09:31.431 --> 00:09:32.551
 or at least Virginia,
 
 00:09:32.971 --> 00:09:34.711
 to endure and to resist
 
 00:09:34.871 --> 00:09:36.091
 challenges and impositions
 
 00:09:36.231 --> 00:09:38.972
 of a more English-style law
 
 00:09:39.013 --> 00:09:40.013
 he was uncomfortable with.
 
 00:09:40.352 --> 00:09:40.793
 Right, right.
 
 00:09:41.333 --> 00:09:42.193
 And it's interesting that he
 
 00:09:42.214 --> 00:09:43.293
 and Marshall both studied
 
 00:09:43.333 --> 00:09:44.615
 under George Wythe.
 
 00:09:44.695 --> 00:09:44.855
 Right.
 
 00:09:46.345 --> 00:09:47.644
 You know, Jefferson, Adams,
 
 00:09:47.684 --> 00:09:49.605
 others write about slogging through Cook,
 
 00:09:49.625 --> 00:09:50.686
 how dense Cook is.
 
 00:09:50.765 --> 00:09:52.126
 But then they really cherish Cook.
 
 00:09:52.206 --> 00:09:54.207
 His ideas were right.
 
 00:09:54.587 --> 00:09:54.827
 Yeah.
 
 00:09:54.888 --> 00:09:55.447
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:09:55.687 --> 00:09:56.368
 There's a letter.
 
 00:09:56.788 --> 00:09:58.688
 I think he's writing to John Page.
 
 00:09:58.749 --> 00:10:01.289
 Jefferson's writing to John Page, like 17,
 
 00:10:01.289 --> 00:10:02.330
 early 1760s.
 
 00:10:02.910 --> 00:10:04.510
 And he just says that,
 
 00:10:04.770 --> 00:10:06.172
 essentially says the devil
 
 00:10:06.231 --> 00:10:08.011
 Cook in recognition that
 
 00:10:08.032 --> 00:10:09.312
 it's just so dense.
 
 00:10:10.293 --> 00:10:11.774
 Like some of the footnotes
 
 00:10:12.053 --> 00:10:13.433
 in that book are longer
 
 00:10:13.474 --> 00:10:14.975
 than the actual text of the book,
 
 00:10:15.034 --> 00:10:15.815
 which is hilarious.
 
 00:10:15.855 --> 00:10:16.014
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:16.754 --> 00:10:17.895
 You had to get through it.
 
 00:10:18.076 --> 00:10:19.155
 That's what you had to do.
 
 00:10:19.317 --> 00:10:20.096
 And they revered him.
 
 00:10:20.557 --> 00:10:21.096
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:21.277 --> 00:10:21.437
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:21.998 --> 00:10:23.018
 So you didn't become a
 
 00:10:23.057 --> 00:10:24.798
 lawyer as a result of this experience.
 
 00:10:25.339 --> 00:10:25.799
 I know,
 
 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:27.399
 but I did take an extreme interest
 
 00:10:27.460 --> 00:10:30.542
 in legal history, which was a very,
 
 00:10:30.562 --> 00:10:33.263
 you know, formative place to do that.
 
 00:10:33.302 --> 00:10:34.464
 One of the great law school.
 
 00:10:34.864 --> 00:10:35.063
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:35.323 --> 00:10:35.464
 Yeah.
 
 00:10:36.745 --> 00:10:37.865
 And another of your projects
 
 00:10:38.085 --> 00:10:39.905
 is on the Scottish court of sessions,
 
 00:10:39.966 --> 00:10:40.866
 digital archive.
 
 00:10:40.907 --> 00:10:41.206
 That's a,
 
 00:10:42.446 --> 00:10:44.106
 tremendous resource that you
 
 00:10:44.206 --> 00:10:45.827
 have been again speaking of
 
 00:10:45.908 --> 00:10:47.208
 legal history you've now
 
 00:10:47.528 --> 00:10:49.429
 gotten this archive of the
 
 00:10:49.490 --> 00:10:51.029
 scottish court obsessions
 
 00:10:51.130 --> 00:10:53.011
 in this way of looking at
 
 00:10:53.052 --> 00:10:54.231
 this atlantic world in a
 
 00:10:54.272 --> 00:10:56.273
 different way and seeing so
 
 00:10:56.332 --> 00:10:57.913
 yeah can you tell us a bit
 
 00:10:57.933 --> 00:11:00.254
 about this yeah so my my
 
 00:11:00.315 --> 00:11:01.716
 own personal research is on
 
 00:11:01.775 --> 00:11:02.615
 scotland and the american
 
 00:11:02.635 --> 00:11:03.756
 revolution I'm particularly
 
 00:11:03.797 --> 00:11:05.158
 interested in immigrants but
 
 00:11:06.485 --> 00:11:07.785
 My postdoctoral fellowship
 
 00:11:08.066 --> 00:11:10.427
 at UVA Law was on the basis
 
 00:11:10.767 --> 00:11:13.087
 of 58 linear feet,
 
 00:11:13.107 --> 00:11:15.268
 so think about 58 banker's boxes,
 
 00:11:15.668 --> 00:11:18.850
 of these printed court
 
 00:11:18.889 --> 00:11:20.809
 records from Scotland's Court of Session,
 
 00:11:20.850 --> 00:11:22.750
 which is Scotland's Supreme Civil Court.
 
 00:11:23.431 --> 00:11:24.991
 And the important thing to know is that
 
 00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:27.299
 England and Scotland have
 
 00:11:27.379 --> 00:11:28.642
 two distinct legal systems.
 
 00:11:29.241 --> 00:11:31.264
 So England, like the American colonies,
 
 00:11:31.303 --> 00:11:32.044
 was common law.
 
 00:11:32.885 --> 00:11:34.167
 Scotland is civil law.
 
 00:11:34.206 --> 00:11:36.349
 So it's based on Roman canonical law.
 
 00:11:37.429 --> 00:11:38.812
 And they began to make the
 
 00:11:38.851 --> 00:11:41.553
 decision in 1710 to print
 
 00:11:42.254 --> 00:11:43.336
 all of the documents that
 
 00:11:43.355 --> 00:11:44.417
 would come before the court.
 
 00:11:45.077 --> 00:11:46.298
 The briefs, the evidence,
 
 00:11:46.499 --> 00:11:47.279
 things like that.
 
 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:49.783
 in part because to eliminate
 
 00:11:49.942 --> 00:11:55.068
 errors from Clark's copying manuscripts.
 
 00:11:55.470 --> 00:11:57.851
 It led to this profusion of
 
 00:11:59.094 --> 00:12:00.034
 printed documentary
 
 00:12:00.095 --> 00:12:01.437
 material that you would see
 
 00:12:01.456 --> 00:12:02.357
 the individual lawyers
 
 00:12:02.398 --> 00:12:03.558
 would have their own collections,
 
 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:05.682
 their professional societies would,
 
 00:12:05.741 --> 00:12:06.523
 the judges would.
 
 00:12:07.163 --> 00:12:08.984
 So UVA ended up with the
 
 00:12:09.024 --> 00:12:10.024
 collections of two men
 
 00:12:10.065 --> 00:12:12.025
 named William Craig Lord Craig,
 
 00:12:12.067 --> 00:12:12.826
 who was a judge on the
 
 00:12:12.907 --> 00:12:15.389
 court in the 18th and 19th centuries,
 
 00:12:15.928 --> 00:12:16.710
 and Andrew Skeen,
 
 00:12:16.730 --> 00:12:17.549
 who was very briefly
 
 00:12:17.610 --> 00:12:18.951
 Solicitor General for Scotland.
 
 00:12:20.272 --> 00:12:21.692
 The thing to know about
 
 00:12:21.732 --> 00:12:24.254
 these wonderful documents is that, yes,
 
 00:12:24.294 --> 00:12:26.416
 there can be some dense legalese in there,
 
 00:12:26.956 --> 00:12:28.437
 but because they're civil documents,
 
 00:12:28.476 --> 00:12:29.258
 they're telling stories
 
 00:12:29.298 --> 00:12:30.298
 about people's lives,
 
 00:12:30.379 --> 00:12:31.600
 not about their criminality,
 
 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:33.841
 but about who they were and
 
 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:36.602
 the trials and tribulations they faced.
 
 00:12:37.504 --> 00:12:39.205
 So you can imagine in an
 
 00:12:39.664 --> 00:12:41.186
 aristocratic world like Scotland,
 
 00:12:41.225 --> 00:12:42.326
 there are a lot of cases
 
 00:12:42.366 --> 00:12:43.227
 that deal with land
 
 00:12:43.268 --> 00:12:45.729
 inheritance and things of this nature.
 
 00:12:45.788 --> 00:12:47.530
 But you're also quite
 
 00:12:47.551 --> 00:12:50.072
 amazingly given access to
 
 00:12:50.793 --> 00:12:51.634
 people's marriages as
 
 00:12:51.673 --> 00:12:52.553
 they're falling apart,
 
 00:12:53.715 --> 00:12:55.076
 bad deals that have taken
 
 00:12:55.135 --> 00:12:56.756
 place between business partners.
 
 00:12:57.278 --> 00:12:58.298
 And in my case, more...
 
 00:12:59.178 --> 00:13:00.539
 more fascinatingly for me,
 
 00:13:01.081 --> 00:13:02.741
 is that we see a lot of
 
 00:13:02.861 --> 00:13:04.783
 people trying to resolve
 
 00:13:05.344 --> 00:13:06.884
 legal problems that came
 
 00:13:07.085 --> 00:13:08.407
 out of the American Revolution.
 
 00:13:08.927 --> 00:13:10.087
 So think, for instance,
 
 00:13:10.528 --> 00:13:12.629
 Glaswegian merchants who
 
 00:13:13.149 --> 00:13:14.490
 are trying to recover debts
 
 00:13:14.831 --> 00:13:16.153
 from the state of Virginia
 
 00:13:16.633 --> 00:13:17.913
 in the aftermath of the war,
 
 00:13:18.654 --> 00:13:21.336
 or American loyalists who
 
 00:13:22.738 --> 00:13:24.278
 either don't necessarily
 
 00:13:24.318 --> 00:13:25.600
 have a claim that has to do
 
 00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:27.282
 with their loyalty, but they're using
 
 00:13:28.022 --> 00:13:30.583
 loyalty as a strategy to try
 
 00:13:30.644 --> 00:13:32.105
 to win the judge's sympathy.
 
 00:13:33.345 --> 00:13:35.145
 We see that in quite a number of cases.
 
 00:13:36.466 --> 00:13:38.048
 It all speaks to the idea
 
 00:13:38.107 --> 00:13:40.828
 that even as the war ends
 
 00:13:40.908 --> 00:13:42.210
 officially in September 1783,
 
 00:13:42.210 --> 00:13:44.110
 the war goes on in
 
 00:13:44.191 --> 00:13:46.331
 courtrooms for years afterwards.
 
 00:13:46.873 --> 00:13:48.113
 Some historians have accounted for that,
 
 00:13:48.153 --> 00:13:49.394
 but we need a lot more work
 
 00:13:49.453 --> 00:13:50.934
 to really grapple with the
 
 00:13:51.014 --> 00:13:53.677
 legal fallout of the revolution.
 
 00:13:55.283 --> 00:13:55.724
 Fascinating.
 
 00:13:56.085 --> 00:13:57.086
 We're talking with Jim
 
 00:13:57.126 --> 00:13:58.870
 Amboski from the Roy
 
 00:13:58.909 --> 00:14:00.533
 Rosenzweig Center for
 
 00:14:00.572 --> 00:14:02.235
 History and New Media and the
 
 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:05.461
 producer of Worlds Turned Upside Down.
 
 00:14:05.481 --> 00:14:08.043
 And is this, by the way,
 
 00:14:08.102 --> 00:14:09.182
 you said your real interest
 
 00:14:09.222 --> 00:14:10.903
 is in Scotland and the war.
 
 00:14:11.183 --> 00:14:12.964
 Is this where your real,
 
 00:14:13.745 --> 00:14:14.565
 you've really done a lot
 
 00:14:14.585 --> 00:14:16.125
 with loyalists and loyalists.
 
 00:14:17.046 --> 00:14:19.886
 Why are the Scots, the Scots in America,
 
 00:14:19.907 --> 00:14:22.687
 do they tend to be more loyal than, say,
 
 00:14:22.768 --> 00:14:24.187
 other ethnic groups?
 
 00:14:25.229 --> 00:14:26.448
 It's a terrific question.
 
 00:14:27.089 --> 00:14:28.610
 It kind of depends on when they come.
 
 00:14:29.509 --> 00:14:30.671
 There's an earlier migration
 
 00:14:30.730 --> 00:14:33.912
 in the 1730s and 1740s,
 
 00:14:34.211 --> 00:14:34.852
 particularly from the
 
 00:14:34.932 --> 00:14:36.293
 highlands and western islands,
 
 00:14:36.734 --> 00:14:37.953
 when really the clan system
 
 00:14:37.994 --> 00:14:40.075
 begins to accelerate its decline.
 
 00:14:41.556 --> 00:14:43.275
 Those folks who go to New York,
 
 00:14:43.336 --> 00:14:44.116
 North Carolina,
 
 00:14:44.616 --> 00:14:46.158
 they tend to be what we
 
 00:14:46.177 --> 00:14:47.418
 would later call patriots,
 
 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:50.361
 people who fight for the
 
 00:14:50.402 --> 00:14:52.102
 American cause and the revolution.
 
 00:14:52.764 --> 00:14:53.344
 In part,
 
 00:14:53.403 --> 00:14:55.225
 we think that's true because they
 
 00:14:55.265 --> 00:14:56.746
 came over in the early 18th century,
 
 00:14:56.787 --> 00:14:58.447
 they had become seasoned in
 
 00:14:58.508 --> 00:15:00.450
 American politics and ideology,
 
 00:15:01.470 --> 00:15:02.571
 and they had more invested,
 
 00:15:02.650 --> 00:15:04.993
 more at stake by that point.
 
 00:15:05.734 --> 00:15:07.034
 The folks that I'm interested in,
 
 00:15:07.095 --> 00:15:08.716
 the folks that come post
 
 00:15:08.735 --> 00:15:09.956
 Seven Years War forward,
 
 00:15:10.017 --> 00:15:10.998
 but particularly the 1760s
 
 00:15:11.097 --> 00:15:11.477
 and early 1770s,
 
 00:15:13.820 --> 00:15:14.400
 A lot of them
 
 00:15:15.140 --> 00:15:16.922
 disproportionately tend to be loyalists.
 
 00:15:17.602 --> 00:15:18.442
 In part,
 
 00:15:18.703 --> 00:15:21.085
 as my colleague Matthew Janique
 
 00:15:21.105 --> 00:15:21.686
 would argue,
 
 00:15:21.706 --> 00:15:22.706
 who's written a terrific book
 
 00:15:22.745 --> 00:15:24.307
 on the Highland soldier in
 
 00:15:24.347 --> 00:15:26.969
 North America during this period, in part,
 
 00:15:27.029 --> 00:15:28.309
 they remain loyal because
 
 00:15:28.370 --> 00:15:32.332
 they see themselves as able
 
 00:15:32.373 --> 00:15:33.433
 to take advantage of what
 
 00:15:33.474 --> 00:15:34.914
 the empire has to offer to
 
 00:15:34.955 --> 00:15:37.197
 them when opportunities,
 
 00:15:37.537 --> 00:15:39.038
 when society has since
 
 00:15:39.197 --> 00:15:40.198
 failed them in Scotland,
 
 00:15:40.239 --> 00:15:41.259
 but they can still go
 
 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:43.321
 to the colonies and get land.
 
 00:15:44.381 --> 00:15:46.003
 And because they see this as
 
 00:15:46.043 --> 00:15:47.964
 being done in an empire
 
 00:15:48.043 --> 00:15:49.225
 headed by a king who
 
 00:15:50.385 --> 00:15:51.307
 created the conditions to
 
 00:15:51.346 --> 00:15:52.187
 make this possible,
 
 00:15:52.488 --> 00:15:53.548
 they're willing to fight for it.
 
 00:15:54.469 --> 00:15:55.669
 And so if you know Flora MacDonald,
 
 00:15:55.690 --> 00:15:57.610
 the famous Jacobite heroine
 
 00:15:58.692 --> 00:16:00.953
 that helps Bonnie Prince
 
 00:16:00.994 --> 00:16:04.235
 Charlie escape from Culloden in the 1746,
 
 00:16:04.235 --> 00:16:05.716
 she and her husband and her
 
 00:16:05.777 --> 00:16:06.977
 children are all loyalists.
 
 00:16:07.918 --> 00:16:09.820
 And they pay the price for that loyalty.
 
 00:16:10.293 --> 00:16:10.673
 Interesting.
 
 00:16:11.073 --> 00:16:13.015
 So what happens to them as a result of,
 
 00:16:13.557 --> 00:16:14.197
 it seems like they're on
 
 00:16:14.217 --> 00:16:16.100
 the wrong side in both of these cases.
 
 00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:17.341
 Exactly.
 
 00:16:17.861 --> 00:16:18.562
 Yeah, exactly.
 
 00:16:18.602 --> 00:16:19.504
 In Flora's case,
 
 00:16:20.105 --> 00:16:20.926
 and Flora Frazier has
 
 00:16:20.946 --> 00:16:21.566
 written a really great
 
 00:16:21.605 --> 00:16:22.748
 biography of her recently,
 
 00:16:22.788 --> 00:16:24.470
 but in Flora McDonald's case,
 
 00:16:26.206 --> 00:16:28.067
 her husband and the sort of
 
 00:16:28.107 --> 00:16:30.090
 militia that he's associated with,
 
 00:16:30.149 --> 00:16:31.009
 they are defeated at the
 
 00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:31.931
 Battle of Moores Creek
 
 00:16:31.971 --> 00:16:34.773
 Bridge in February 1776.
 
 00:16:34.773 --> 00:16:37.414
 It basically breaks the back of Loyalism,
 
 00:16:37.434 --> 00:16:39.115
 and particularly Scotch
 
 00:16:39.135 --> 00:16:41.258
 Highlander Loyalism in North Carolina.
 
 00:16:42.479 --> 00:16:44.100
 And for the next few years,
 
 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.701
 while her husband is
 
 00:16:46.761 --> 00:16:49.484
 imprisoned in Philadelphia and New York,
 
 00:16:50.203 --> 00:16:52.306
 Flora is staying with family.
 
 00:16:52.346 --> 00:16:53.807
 Her property's been confiscated.
 
 00:16:54.107 --> 00:16:54.889
 Eventually,
 
 00:16:55.408 --> 00:16:56.090
 she and her husband are
 
 00:16:56.129 --> 00:16:58.893
 reunited in Nova Scotia in 1778,
 
 00:16:58.893 --> 00:17:00.494
 and she makes her way back
 
 00:17:00.533 --> 00:17:01.534
 to Scotland from that.
 
 00:17:01.595 --> 00:17:03.636
 But they lose two sons during the war.
 
 00:17:03.658 --> 00:17:04.739
 They're both in the service.
 
 00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:06.059
 Yeah.
 
 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:06.901
 Amazing.
 
 00:17:07.181 --> 00:17:07.520
 Amazing.
 
 00:17:07.842 --> 00:17:08.803
 We're talking with Jim
 
 00:17:08.843 --> 00:17:09.864
 Amboski from the Roy
 
 00:17:09.903 --> 00:17:10.944
 Rosenfleek Center for
 
 00:17:10.984 --> 00:17:12.425
 History and New Media.
 
 00:17:13.166 --> 00:17:13.287
 And
 
 00:17:14.622 --> 00:17:16.123
 producer of The World's
 
 00:17:16.182 --> 00:17:17.002
 Turned Upside Down.
 
 00:17:17.042 --> 00:17:20.365
 So how many episodes is this going to be?
 
 00:17:21.405 --> 00:17:22.846
 Do you see Worlds Turned Upside Down?
 
 00:17:23.767 --> 00:17:25.988
 Five seasons of at least 50 episodes.
 
 00:17:26.208 --> 00:17:28.308
 And so the original plan was
 
 00:17:28.328 --> 00:17:29.630
 to have 10 episode seasons.
 
 00:17:29.730 --> 00:17:30.150
 But again,
 
 00:17:30.230 --> 00:17:31.310
 going back to our kind of
 
 00:17:31.411 --> 00:17:34.093
 earlier part of our
 
 00:17:34.133 --> 00:17:34.952
 conversation where we
 
 00:17:34.992 --> 00:17:36.114
 talked about where we got
 
 00:17:36.233 --> 00:17:38.434
 more great stuff than we anticipated.
 
 00:17:39.035 --> 00:17:40.036
 We've essentially decided to
 
 00:17:40.135 --> 00:17:41.756
 add episodes because we
 
 00:17:41.875 --> 00:17:43.916
 want to take advantage of
 
 00:17:43.957 --> 00:17:45.178
 all the great scholarship
 
 00:17:45.357 --> 00:17:47.479
 that people were so generous with.
 
 00:17:47.878 --> 00:17:49.819
 And we can tell these really
 
 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:51.861
 creative stories grounded
 
 00:17:51.921 --> 00:17:52.820
 in the scholarship and the
 
 00:17:52.840 --> 00:17:53.842
 primary sources that we
 
 00:17:53.862 --> 00:17:54.862
 didn't anticipate when we
 
 00:17:54.882 --> 00:17:55.642
 started our plan.
 
 00:17:55.662 --> 00:17:56.762
 That's great.
 
 00:17:56.982 --> 00:17:57.363
 That's great.
 
 00:17:58.124 --> 00:18:00.183
 And I guess if you did try
 
 00:18:00.203 --> 00:18:01.765
 to do this as a video series,
 
 00:18:01.805 --> 00:18:02.786
 that would really change.
 
 00:18:02.826 --> 00:18:04.125
 And having audio has certain
 
 00:18:04.165 --> 00:18:05.826
 advantages in what you can do.
 
 00:18:06.666 --> 00:18:08.628
 Yeah, I think, well, the cost goes down,
 
 00:18:08.669 --> 00:18:08.969
 certainly.
 
 00:18:11.290 --> 00:18:12.030
 But it is,
 
 00:18:12.131 --> 00:18:13.653
 it's interesting to think about
 
 00:18:13.673 --> 00:18:14.553
 the differences between the
 
 00:18:14.653 --> 00:18:16.315
 audio form and the video form.
 
 00:18:16.375 --> 00:18:20.298
 I think in the audio form,
 
 00:18:20.337 --> 00:18:21.378
 we can almost do more
 
 00:18:21.459 --> 00:18:22.538
 narration than you might
 
 00:18:22.579 --> 00:18:24.161
 expect in a video format.
 
 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:24.621
 I mean,
 
 00:18:25.162 --> 00:18:27.282
 we study these things all the time.
 
 00:18:27.323 --> 00:18:28.364
 We kind of look for best
 
 00:18:28.403 --> 00:18:29.305
 practices and what our
 
 00:18:29.365 --> 00:18:30.226
 colleagues are doing and
 
 00:18:30.266 --> 00:18:32.106
 what professional folks
 
 00:18:32.146 --> 00:18:33.208
 like Ken Burns are doing
 
 00:18:34.008 --> 00:18:34.769
 and thinking about how to
 
 00:18:34.808 --> 00:18:35.809
 construct our narration.
 
 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:37.119
 And kind of the differences
 
 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:38.000
 we've noticed right in the
 
 00:18:38.040 --> 00:18:39.662
 video is that the narration
 
 00:18:39.741 --> 00:18:40.622
 tends to be shorter,
 
 00:18:40.682 --> 00:18:44.084
 whereas in the podcast format,
 
 00:18:44.104 --> 00:18:45.545
 we can go a little bit long for it.
 
 00:18:46.484 --> 00:18:48.486
 But also, you know,
 
 00:18:48.846 --> 00:18:50.267
 eventually I do kind of
 
 00:18:50.307 --> 00:18:51.647
 have the documentary book now,
 
 00:18:51.708 --> 00:18:52.988
 so maybe someday I'll do
 
 00:18:53.127 --> 00:18:53.909
 something in video.
 
 00:18:54.568 --> 00:18:55.028
 That's good.
 
 00:18:56.190 --> 00:18:57.130
 And what kind of an audience
 
 00:18:57.471 --> 00:18:58.250
 have you developed?
 
 00:18:59.008 --> 00:18:59.208
 Yeah,
 
 00:18:59.248 --> 00:19:00.308
 we've been very fortunate to have
 
 00:19:00.548 --> 00:19:01.289
 essentially a global
 
 00:19:01.309 --> 00:19:02.309
 audience with audience
 
 00:19:02.349 --> 00:19:03.490
 primarily in the United States,
 
 00:19:03.590 --> 00:19:06.313
 but a fairly large audience
 
 00:19:07.513 --> 00:19:09.095
 in the United States, Europe,
 
 00:19:09.154 --> 00:19:10.296
 North America and whatnot.
 
 00:19:11.797 --> 00:19:12.737
 We tend to have folks who
 
 00:19:12.797 --> 00:19:13.938
 are very interested in the
 
 00:19:13.998 --> 00:19:15.338
 history of the American Revolution,
 
 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:16.740
 very interested in the
 
 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:18.101
 history of early America or
 
 00:19:18.161 --> 00:19:18.942
 history in general,
 
 00:19:19.481 --> 00:19:20.502
 which has been really nice.
 
 00:19:20.742 --> 00:19:23.224
 And we also have a very, I would say,
 
 00:19:23.704 --> 00:19:24.885
 very sophisticated audience.
 
 00:19:25.746 --> 00:19:26.386
 One of the things that we
 
 00:19:26.426 --> 00:19:27.386
 have found is that
 
 00:19:28.428 --> 00:19:30.108
 in thinking about ourselves
 
 00:19:30.169 --> 00:19:31.410
 in relation to other shows
 
 00:19:32.309 --> 00:19:36.333
 and other studios is that the British,
 
 00:19:36.373 --> 00:19:37.993
 through the BBC podcasts and whatnot,
 
 00:19:38.874 --> 00:19:41.316
 they do something that a lot of us,
 
 00:19:41.355 --> 00:19:42.596
 I think, don't in the United States,
 
 00:19:42.655 --> 00:19:44.477
 which is to trust the audience,
 
 00:19:44.757 --> 00:19:47.078
 to trust that they can handle complexity.
 
 00:19:47.858 --> 00:19:48.660
 And so we've taken the
 
 00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:49.900
 position that we are going
 
 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:51.721
 to try to meet that challenge.
 
 00:19:52.682 --> 00:19:53.722
 When I was at Mount Vernon,
 
 00:19:53.762 --> 00:19:54.982
 I hosted conversations at
 
 00:19:55.002 --> 00:19:55.943
 the Washington Library
 
 00:19:56.433 --> 00:19:57.114
 And Mike Duncan,
 
 00:19:57.153 --> 00:19:57.734
 who has written a really
 
 00:19:57.775 --> 00:19:58.994
 great book on Lafayette,
 
 00:19:59.535 --> 00:20:00.276
 was one of our guests.
 
 00:20:00.316 --> 00:20:00.955
 And that's one of the most
 
 00:20:00.996 --> 00:20:02.195
 important lessons I took
 
 00:20:02.236 --> 00:20:03.517
 away from our conversation there.
 
 00:20:03.557 --> 00:20:06.178
 He said, you have to trust the audience.
 
 00:20:06.837 --> 00:20:08.838
 They can handle the nuance.
 
 00:20:09.019 --> 00:20:10.819
 And there's a certain limit
 
 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:11.799
 you can go overboard,
 
 00:20:11.861 --> 00:20:12.681
 and you have to be very
 
 00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:13.820
 careful where that is.
 
 00:20:13.921 --> 00:20:17.282
 But if you give them more of
 
 00:20:17.323 --> 00:20:18.242
 a richer picture,
 
 00:20:18.262 --> 00:20:20.463
 then they walk away knowing
 
 00:20:20.624 --> 00:20:22.644
 something more than they did before.
 
 00:20:22.664 --> 00:20:24.145
 That's true.
 
 00:20:24.586 --> 00:20:24.865
 That's true.
 
 00:20:25.511 --> 00:20:26.593
 And it's one of the ironies.
 
 00:20:26.633 --> 00:20:26.833
 I mean,
 
 00:20:26.853 --> 00:20:29.153
 you look at someone like you with a Ph.D.
 
 00:20:29.193 --> 00:20:32.635
 in history in a different
 
 00:20:32.655 --> 00:20:34.257
 world or world of maybe 50 years ago,
 
 00:20:34.317 --> 00:20:35.538
 you would be teaching.
 
 00:20:35.597 --> 00:20:36.618
 And we see we've seen the
 
 00:20:36.659 --> 00:20:38.259
 history enrollments have been going down,
 
 00:20:38.299 --> 00:20:39.380
 but still there is this
 
 00:20:39.941 --> 00:20:41.741
 tremendous hunger for history.
 
 00:20:42.061 --> 00:20:43.303
 And there are folk people
 
 00:20:43.343 --> 00:20:44.462
 like you who are producing
 
 00:20:45.144 --> 00:20:46.884
 really interesting work for
 
 00:20:46.944 --> 00:20:49.145
 this audience that isn't an academic one.
 
 00:20:50.074 --> 00:20:52.335
 right right and it's it's it
 
 00:20:52.394 --> 00:20:54.797
 is an interesting imbalance
 
 00:20:54.876 --> 00:20:56.038
 right it's it's not great
 
 00:20:56.077 --> 00:20:56.837
 that our enrollments are
 
 00:20:56.877 --> 00:20:59.619
 falling it's it's it's
 
 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:01.079
 perilous uh you know to our
 
 00:21:01.121 --> 00:21:02.260
 society it's perilous to
 
 00:21:02.280 --> 00:21:04.261
 democracy uh history is a
 
 00:21:04.301 --> 00:21:05.163
 way to have an informed
 
 00:21:05.202 --> 00:21:06.763
 citizenry enough yeah every
 
 00:21:06.864 --> 00:21:07.903
 time we needed an informed
 
 00:21:07.943 --> 00:21:09.204
 citizenry boy it's right
 
 00:21:09.244 --> 00:21:12.067
 now uh and so so we have to
 
 00:21:12.126 --> 00:21:13.047
 figure out how to
 
 00:21:14.627 --> 00:21:15.528
 and I don't have a good
 
 00:21:15.568 --> 00:21:16.628
 concrete solution for this,
 
 00:21:16.749 --> 00:21:20.310
 but how to get those
 
 00:21:20.351 --> 00:21:22.071
 numbers back up to leverage
 
 00:21:22.112 --> 00:21:22.991
 the kind of good work that
 
 00:21:23.011 --> 00:21:24.853
 we're doing in the public history space.
 
 00:21:25.373 --> 00:21:26.013
 But increasingly,
 
 00:21:26.094 --> 00:21:28.114
 academics by and large are
 
 00:21:28.153 --> 00:21:29.115
 reaching out to the public.
 
 00:21:29.494 --> 00:21:30.556
 How do we leverage that
 
 00:21:30.615 --> 00:21:31.875
 enthusiasm for the work
 
 00:21:31.895 --> 00:21:33.876
 that we're producing to
 
 00:21:34.096 --> 00:21:35.337
 inspire people to take more
 
 00:21:35.377 --> 00:21:37.259
 history courses, to become history majors,
 
 00:21:38.318 --> 00:21:40.079
 to become fully fledged and
 
 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.221
 form members of society that we need?
 
 00:21:42.846 --> 00:21:43.047
 Yeah.
 
 00:21:43.967 --> 00:21:44.647
 Now,
 
 00:21:44.948 --> 00:21:46.587
 how has George Mason become one of the
 
 00:21:46.647 --> 00:21:47.387
 leaders in this?
 
 00:21:47.488 --> 00:21:48.608
 It's really interesting that
 
 00:21:48.669 --> 00:21:50.209
 this particular university
 
 00:21:50.249 --> 00:21:51.750
 really is focusing on this
 
 00:21:51.769 --> 00:21:53.309
 in such a big way,
 
 00:21:53.329 --> 00:21:55.611
 but also a very important way.
 
 00:21:55.631 --> 00:21:55.711
 Yeah.
 
 00:21:55.851 --> 00:21:56.770
 Very fortunate to be here at
 
 00:21:56.790 --> 00:21:59.451
 George Mason because it's
 
 00:21:59.711 --> 00:22:00.612
 an interesting story.
 
 00:22:00.872 --> 00:22:03.022
 Mason was founded about 51,
 
 00:22:03.022 --> 00:22:04.673
 52 years ago as a branch
 
 00:22:04.712 --> 00:22:07.273
 campus of University of Virginia.
 
 00:22:07.733 --> 00:22:08.794
 It's northern branch campus.
 
 00:22:08.814 --> 00:22:10.154
 It became its own independent thing.
 
 00:22:10.755 --> 00:22:12.737
 But then 30 years ago, actually,
 
 00:22:12.737 --> 00:22:13.978
 30 years ago this year,
 
 00:22:13.998 --> 00:22:16.601
 our late colleague, Roy Rosenzweig,
 
 00:22:16.701 --> 00:22:18.422
 founded the Center for
 
 00:22:18.461 --> 00:22:19.262
 History and New Media,
 
 00:22:19.502 --> 00:22:20.523
 which at the time
 
 00:22:20.584 --> 00:22:22.165
 essentially consisted of him as he,
 
 00:22:22.665 --> 00:22:23.807
 I gather he liked to joke,
 
 00:22:23.886 --> 00:22:25.188
 hanging a sign on his
 
 00:22:25.248 --> 00:22:26.108
 office door and saying,
 
 00:22:26.128 --> 00:22:27.230
 this is what we're doing.
 
 00:22:27.851 --> 00:22:28.731
 But this was, you know,
 
 00:22:28.771 --> 00:22:30.192
 this is the mid-90s when
 
 00:22:31.574 --> 00:22:33.835
 the rise of the internet and
 
 00:22:34.076 --> 00:22:35.757
 digital technology became
 
 00:22:35.936 --> 00:22:37.758
 more accessible and it
 
 00:22:37.798 --> 00:22:38.718
 became possible to
 
 00:22:38.758 --> 00:22:40.398
 distribute history in different ways.
 
 00:22:40.499 --> 00:22:42.339
 So part of their goal was to
 
 00:22:42.380 --> 00:22:44.080
 figure out how do we democratize history?
 
 00:22:44.682 --> 00:22:46.843
 How do we not only digitize documents,
 
 00:22:46.883 --> 00:22:47.903
 but how do we take data
 
 00:22:48.483 --> 00:22:49.884
 package it in a presentable way,
 
 00:22:50.525 --> 00:22:52.287
 and make it accessible to
 
 00:22:52.307 --> 00:22:53.406
 the public free of charge.
 
 00:22:53.827 --> 00:22:54.647
 And that's kind of an
 
 00:22:54.688 --> 00:22:56.348
 important vocational thing, right?
 
 00:22:57.349 --> 00:22:58.310
 The state's paying us to do
 
 00:22:58.351 --> 00:22:58.871
 this good work.
 
 00:22:59.070 --> 00:23:01.071
 We have a public obligation
 
 00:23:01.113 --> 00:23:01.712
 to make sure it's
 
 00:23:01.752 --> 00:23:02.973
 accessible to everybody.
 
 00:23:03.913 --> 00:23:04.634
 So from there,
 
 00:23:05.134 --> 00:23:06.336
 the center grew in
 
 00:23:06.435 --> 00:23:08.617
 developing various digital projects,
 
 00:23:09.097 --> 00:23:10.179
 various digital tools,
 
 00:23:10.298 --> 00:23:11.960
 and in the last four or five years,
 
 00:23:12.019 --> 00:23:12.720
 podcasting.
 
 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:14.201
 So it's kind of a natural
 
 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:15.422
 progression of the legacy.
 
 00:23:16.363 --> 00:23:16.742
 Interesting.
 
 00:23:17.461 --> 00:23:18.384
 And do you have other things
 
 00:23:18.484 --> 00:23:20.290
 in store for the 250th or
 
 00:23:20.371 --> 00:23:22.116
 for early American history?
 
 00:23:22.576 --> 00:23:23.196
 Yeah, right now,
 
 00:23:23.457 --> 00:23:25.198
 in terms of the podcast space,
 
 00:23:25.238 --> 00:23:27.239
 we're working on the fourth
 
 00:23:27.278 --> 00:23:28.400
 season of our show called
 
 00:23:28.420 --> 00:23:29.799
 Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant.
 
 00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:31.500
 That series is hosted by
 
 00:23:31.540 --> 00:23:32.221
 Catherine Garrett.
 
 00:23:32.261 --> 00:23:33.122
 It's a women's history
 
 00:23:33.142 --> 00:23:34.682
 podcast show in which she
 
 00:23:34.702 --> 00:23:35.823
 and her guests break down a
 
 00:23:35.923 --> 00:23:37.763
 letter from an 18th and
 
 00:23:37.784 --> 00:23:38.984
 early 19th century woman
 
 00:23:39.825 --> 00:23:41.465
 and contextualize it for the audience.
 
 00:23:41.665 --> 00:23:42.645
 So a lot of the work that
 
 00:23:43.027 --> 00:23:43.987
 y'all are doing at Colonial
 
 00:23:44.007 --> 00:23:46.448
 Massachusetts and our
 
 00:23:46.488 --> 00:23:47.568
 colleagues at Mass
 
 00:23:47.588 --> 00:23:48.689
 Historical with the Adams
 
 00:23:48.729 --> 00:23:50.109
 Papers do to annotate
 
 00:23:52.372 --> 00:23:53.993
 in paper form, I guess.
 
 00:23:54.413 --> 00:23:55.414
 They're annotating a letter
 
 00:23:55.434 --> 00:23:57.497
 in audio form for the audience's benefit.
 
 00:23:57.896 --> 00:23:58.837
 So season four is going to
 
 00:23:58.857 --> 00:24:00.298
 be called a season of revolution.
 
 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:02.101
 And the idea is we're going
 
 00:24:02.121 --> 00:24:03.541
 to focus on 15 women who
 
 00:24:04.021 --> 00:24:05.442
 lived through the revolutionary era,
 
 00:24:06.144 --> 00:24:07.704
 pick a letter or a poem or
 
 00:24:07.744 --> 00:24:08.865
 some other kind of document
 
 00:24:09.426 --> 00:24:10.587
 and unpack that for the
 
 00:24:10.667 --> 00:24:12.669
 audience and figure out how
 
 00:24:13.549 --> 00:24:14.211
 the revolutionary
 
 00:24:14.671 --> 00:24:16.251
 experience changed them in
 
 00:24:16.291 --> 00:24:17.093
 some profound way.
 
 00:24:17.693 --> 00:24:18.074
 Interesting.
 
 00:24:18.557 --> 00:24:19.239
 It's a great project.
 
 00:24:19.278 --> 00:24:20.920
 This has become actually the
 
 00:24:20.980 --> 00:24:22.421
 idea of doing a history of
 
 00:24:22.501 --> 00:24:23.702
 something in a series of
 
 00:24:23.762 --> 00:24:25.044
 documents or in a series of
 
 00:24:25.104 --> 00:24:26.525
 buildings or artifacts.
 
 00:24:26.545 --> 00:24:28.487
 It's been really a great way
 
 00:24:28.527 --> 00:24:29.587
 of reaching an audience,
 
 00:24:29.627 --> 00:24:30.929
 but also telling this story.
 
 00:24:30.989 --> 00:24:31.829
 And you're right,
 
 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:34.893
 the audience can handle complexity,
 
 00:24:35.053 --> 00:24:36.253
 nuance, other things.
 
 00:24:36.846 --> 00:24:37.146
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:24:37.207 --> 00:24:37.788
 I mean,
 
 00:24:37.807 --> 00:24:39.250
 there was that history in 100 Objects,
 
 00:24:39.349 --> 00:24:40.092
 I think was the British
 
 00:24:40.132 --> 00:24:41.554
 Museum was so successful.
 
 00:24:41.974 --> 00:24:43.156
 You've seen that replicated.
 
 00:24:44.117 --> 00:24:46.241
 And Katie started this show
 
 00:24:46.301 --> 00:24:47.683
 as a pandemic project in 2020.
 
 00:24:47.683 --> 00:24:47.884
 And so-
 
 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.300
 Very fortunately,
 
 00:24:50.340 --> 00:24:51.803
 when I moved over to George Mason,
 
 00:24:51.883 --> 00:24:52.744
 she reached out and said,
 
 00:24:52.765 --> 00:24:53.506
 can we work together?
 
 00:24:53.546 --> 00:24:55.407
 And we were like, well, probably,
 
 00:24:55.448 --> 00:24:55.989
 but let's see.
 
 00:24:56.028 --> 00:24:57.391
 And we figured out how to do it.
 
 00:24:57.471 --> 00:25:00.114
 And so it's been a really
 
 00:25:00.153 --> 00:25:01.256
 wonderful collaboration.
 
 00:25:01.476 --> 00:25:03.739
 And there's a couple of
 
 00:25:03.778 --> 00:25:06.041
 recent episodes I focused on, for example,
 
 00:25:06.082 --> 00:25:06.863
 the deposition of
 
 00:25:07.344 --> 00:25:08.325
 of a woman named Phyllis,
 
 00:25:08.424 --> 00:25:09.785
 who was formerly enslaved,
 
 00:25:09.825 --> 00:25:11.826
 but her husband, who became free,
 
 00:25:11.946 --> 00:25:13.667
 fought for the Continental Army.
 
 00:25:13.728 --> 00:25:15.208
 And so in 1830s,
 
 00:25:15.749 --> 00:25:17.609
 she's trying to get a share
 
 00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:18.390
 of his pension.
 
 00:25:19.030 --> 00:25:20.592
 And so that that episode
 
 00:25:21.172 --> 00:25:23.153
 really looks at her journey to do that.
 
 00:25:24.493 --> 00:25:25.114
 Fascinating.
 
 00:25:27.998 --> 00:25:29.959
 You also, while you were at Mount Vernon,
 
 00:25:29.979 --> 00:25:31.199
 you also were the editor of
 
 00:25:31.219 --> 00:25:32.819
 the Digital Encyclopedia of
 
 00:25:32.859 --> 00:25:34.320
 George Washington and also
 
 00:25:34.681 --> 00:25:35.980
 produced their League of
 
 00:25:36.020 --> 00:25:36.821
 Descendants of the Mount
 
 00:25:36.862 --> 00:25:38.662
 Vernon Enslaved Oral History Project.
 
 00:25:38.682 --> 00:25:38.801
 I mean,
 
 00:25:38.821 --> 00:25:39.623
 you've done a tremendous
 
 00:25:39.682 --> 00:25:41.063
 collaborations as well as
 
 00:25:41.663 --> 00:25:43.324
 work over the course of your career.
 
 00:25:44.025 --> 00:25:44.825
 It seems like you'd have to
 
 00:25:44.845 --> 00:25:45.944
 be a lot older to have done
 
 00:25:45.984 --> 00:25:47.046
 all the things you have done.
 
 00:25:48.731 --> 00:25:50.032
 Well, I'll take that compliment.
 
 00:25:50.053 --> 00:25:50.773
 Thank you very much.
 
 00:25:53.976 --> 00:25:54.756
 When I was hired to be the
 
 00:25:54.796 --> 00:25:56.156
 digital historian at Mount Vernon,
 
 00:25:56.616 --> 00:25:57.837
 one of the chief tasks was
 
 00:25:57.877 --> 00:25:59.138
 the digital encyclopedia.
 
 00:25:59.679 --> 00:26:01.839
 It was a pretty great project so far.
 
 00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:02.921
 One of the things that we
 
 00:26:02.941 --> 00:26:05.301
 did when we took over,
 
 00:26:05.362 --> 00:26:06.262
 I guess you might say,
 
 00:26:06.343 --> 00:26:08.284
 is we began reaching out
 
 00:26:08.304 --> 00:26:09.744
 with colleagues whom I
 
 00:26:09.785 --> 00:26:11.445
 worked with through my UVA days.
 
 00:26:12.185 --> 00:26:13.887
 And began working with classrooms,
 
 00:26:14.268 --> 00:26:15.469
 particularly Denver Brunsman,
 
 00:26:16.289 --> 00:26:17.391
 who's a terrific scholar of
 
 00:26:17.411 --> 00:26:18.372
 the revolutionary era,
 
 00:26:18.751 --> 00:26:19.593
 working with his students
 
 00:26:19.633 --> 00:26:21.795
 to develop the encyclopedia
 
 00:26:21.875 --> 00:26:24.917
 as an assignment for his
 
 00:26:25.057 --> 00:26:26.479
 students so that we could
 
 00:26:26.558 --> 00:26:27.400
 work for them over the
 
 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:28.401
 course of the semester to
 
 00:26:28.441 --> 00:26:29.701
 produce a very polished
 
 00:26:31.182 --> 00:26:32.304
 encyclopedia entry.
 
 00:26:32.565 --> 00:26:33.184
 But also, you know,
 
 00:26:33.224 --> 00:26:34.125
 scholars such as yourself,
 
 00:26:34.145 --> 00:26:35.166
 we would reach out to for
 
 00:26:35.207 --> 00:26:35.826
 certain entries.
 
 00:26:36.008 --> 00:26:36.327
 Right.
 
 00:26:37.298 --> 00:26:38.480
 we're very grateful to see
 
 00:26:38.500 --> 00:26:39.721
 that it's been cited in
 
 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:41.622
 professional publications.
 
 00:26:41.842 --> 00:26:43.182
 And so it's making a real difference.
 
 00:26:44.324 --> 00:26:46.226
 Now, with respect to the descendants,
 
 00:26:47.646 --> 00:26:50.368
 that was a real, one of the,
 
 00:26:51.169 --> 00:26:51.630
 probably the most
 
 00:26:51.690 --> 00:26:52.711
 meaningful things that I
 
 00:26:52.830 --> 00:26:53.750
 did at Mount Vernon.
 
 00:26:54.251 --> 00:26:55.211
 We had started an oral
 
 00:26:55.251 --> 00:26:57.013
 history project with the
 
 00:26:57.074 --> 00:26:57.953
 League of Descendants of
 
 00:26:57.993 --> 00:26:59.255
 the Enslaved at Mount Vernon,
 
 00:26:59.776 --> 00:27:00.977
 in which they essentially
 
 00:27:01.737 --> 00:27:02.798
 they ran the project.
 
 00:27:02.917 --> 00:27:04.057
 I was just helping to
 
 00:27:04.238 --> 00:27:05.057
 produce the back end
 
 00:27:05.117 --> 00:27:06.038
 actually on StreamYard,
 
 00:27:06.098 --> 00:27:07.398
 like we're talking on today.
 
 00:27:08.539 --> 00:27:10.099
 But I got to sit through all
 
 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:12.080
 of those conversations, or most of them,
 
 00:27:12.580 --> 00:27:13.961
 and really listen to
 
 00:27:14.122 --> 00:27:15.561
 people's stories and to
 
 00:27:15.582 --> 00:27:19.203
 hear about their ancestors'
 
 00:27:19.263 --> 00:27:20.844
 connection to the plantation,
 
 00:27:20.864 --> 00:27:22.625
 Mount Vernon's plantation,
 
 00:27:23.125 --> 00:27:26.006
 and how that connection has
 
 00:27:26.046 --> 00:27:27.227
 shaped their lives since.
 
 00:27:27.527 --> 00:27:28.227
 And it's a really
 
 00:27:29.208 --> 00:27:30.369
 Uh, uh,
 
 00:27:30.590 --> 00:27:32.374
 it's really probably one of the
 
 00:27:32.394 --> 00:27:33.875
 best things that I was a part of,
 
 00:27:34.057 --> 00:27:34.538
 you know, I was,
 
 00:27:34.657 --> 00:27:35.920
 I was just very grateful to
 
 00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:37.542
 be associated with it.
 
 00:27:39.145 --> 00:27:39.787
 So you've had, um,
 
 00:27:41.363 --> 00:27:42.564
 well over a decade now of
 
 00:27:42.624 --> 00:27:43.884
 really being immersed in
 
 00:27:43.944 --> 00:27:46.106
 this world of the 18th
 
 00:27:46.146 --> 00:27:47.127
 century period of the
 
 00:27:47.188 --> 00:27:49.230
 revolution and I'm just
 
 00:27:49.630 --> 00:27:52.192
 wondering where you this
 
 00:27:52.251 --> 00:27:53.452
 long Legacy of it that
 
 00:27:53.532 --> 00:27:54.794
 comes to us in surprising
 
 00:27:54.854 --> 00:27:56.476
 ways I mean how do you see
 
 00:27:56.516 --> 00:27:58.156
 this as a as an historical
 
 00:27:58.396 --> 00:27:59.917
 art or as a narrative or as
 
 00:28:00.858 --> 00:28:01.640
 stories we can tell
 
 00:28:03.038 --> 00:28:05.818
 I think, you know, for my mind, I mean,
 
 00:28:05.919 --> 00:28:06.898
 I understand the American
 
 00:28:06.939 --> 00:28:08.679
 Revolution or this period,
 
 00:28:09.338 --> 00:28:11.259
 the way I come at it is how
 
 00:28:11.299 --> 00:28:12.440
 an empire fell apart.
 
 00:28:12.579 --> 00:28:14.000
 Like that's what excites me
 
 00:28:14.019 --> 00:28:15.961
 about this history.
 
 00:28:16.201 --> 00:28:17.921
 And within that framework
 
 00:28:17.961 --> 00:28:20.102
 that I see a kind of a big playground,
 
 00:28:20.261 --> 00:28:21.041
 all of these different
 
 00:28:21.801 --> 00:28:22.842
 stories that we can tell.
 
 00:28:22.942 --> 00:28:23.961
 And so that is really kind
 
 00:28:23.981 --> 00:28:25.823
 of shaped my approach to my
 
 00:28:25.863 --> 00:28:27.103
 different projects, both
 
 00:28:27.663 --> 00:28:28.903
 you know, the podcast projects,
 
 00:28:28.943 --> 00:28:30.965
 but also my work with the
 
 00:28:31.125 --> 00:28:32.126
 Scottish Court of Session
 
 00:28:32.186 --> 00:28:34.308
 and my Scottish immigrants in general.
 
 00:28:34.848 --> 00:28:38.211
 And that really, figuring out how they,
 
 00:28:38.592 --> 00:28:39.853
 these people confronted
 
 00:28:39.913 --> 00:28:40.834
 something that they didn't
 
 00:28:40.854 --> 00:28:42.214
 really see coming, although, you know,
 
 00:28:42.255 --> 00:28:43.256
 some kind of did.
 
 00:28:44.797 --> 00:28:46.818
 But then how they try to
 
 00:28:48.398 --> 00:28:49.260
 navigate through it and
 
 00:28:49.320 --> 00:28:51.965
 reconstruct their lives in the aftermath.
 
 00:28:52.446 --> 00:28:54.009
 There's just many marvelous
 
 00:28:54.329 --> 00:28:54.971
 stories to tell.
 
 00:28:55.211 --> 00:28:56.272
 Really is.
 
 00:28:56.294 --> 00:28:57.816
 What got you interested in the Scots?
 
 00:28:59.967 --> 00:29:03.309
 I, uh, it was, it was a funny question.
 
 00:29:03.430 --> 00:29:07.232
 So, um, my, who was going to be my wife,
 
 00:29:07.653 --> 00:29:08.714
 uh, uh,
 
 00:29:08.795 --> 00:29:10.556
 we went on a kind of pre-wedding
 
 00:29:10.635 --> 00:29:12.857
 trip to the UK in 2008.
 
 00:29:12.857 --> 00:29:13.117
 Um,
 
 00:29:13.137 --> 00:29:16.300
 and she's a historian of Tudor England.
 
 00:29:17.122 --> 00:29:17.182
 Uh,
 
 00:29:17.301 --> 00:29:18.643
 and so she was going over for her first
 
 00:29:18.682 --> 00:29:19.663
 big research trip.
 
 00:29:19.683 --> 00:29:21.125
 And so we decided to go to, um,
 
 00:29:22.205 --> 00:29:23.166
 Scotland since we,
 
 00:29:23.386 --> 00:29:24.188
 none of us had ever been
 
 00:29:24.208 --> 00:29:27.009
 there and in the castle in Edinburgh,
 
 00:29:27.636 --> 00:29:29.238
 If you go down into the dungeon,
 
 00:29:29.837 --> 00:29:30.538
 you will see that it's
 
 00:29:30.598 --> 00:29:34.020
 interpreted as it was when
 
 00:29:34.080 --> 00:29:35.922
 American POWs from the
 
 00:29:35.961 --> 00:29:37.202
 revolution were kept there.
 
 00:29:38.144 --> 00:29:39.785
 And even on the big dungeon door,
 
 00:29:39.825 --> 00:29:40.965
 they've drawn a ship or
 
 00:29:41.006 --> 00:29:42.226
 they carved a ship with the
 
 00:29:42.287 --> 00:29:43.386
 stars and stripes or the
 
 00:29:43.426 --> 00:29:44.627
 nascent stars and stripes.
 
 00:29:45.167 --> 00:29:46.229
 So I thought, great.
 
 00:29:46.548 --> 00:29:47.849
 All right.
 
 00:29:48.089 --> 00:29:48.891
 Yeah.
 
 00:29:49.151 --> 00:29:49.810
 And I thought, well,
 
 00:29:49.851 --> 00:29:50.451
 this is going to be my
 
 00:29:50.511 --> 00:29:51.372
 project because I knew I
 
 00:29:51.412 --> 00:29:52.752
 was going to go to UVA soon.
 
 00:29:52.772 --> 00:29:53.314
 Yeah.
 
 00:29:54.213 --> 00:29:56.315
 Well, as many of us know,
 
 00:29:56.394 --> 00:29:57.575
 if you can't find the sources,
 
 00:29:57.695 --> 00:29:58.675
 you can't tell the story.
 
 00:29:58.895 --> 00:29:59.796
 And so I couldn't find
 
 00:29:59.875 --> 00:30:01.277
 enough to sustain a dissertation.
 
 00:30:01.317 --> 00:30:02.656
 But in that process,
 
 00:30:03.238 --> 00:30:04.698
 I came across John Witherspoon,
 
 00:30:05.739 --> 00:30:07.338
 who became what is
 
 00:30:07.378 --> 00:30:08.500
 eventually would be called
 
 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:09.519
 Princeton University,
 
 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:10.661
 College of New Jersey in
 
 00:30:10.681 --> 00:30:11.441
 the 18th century.
 
 00:30:11.961 --> 00:30:13.761
 He was a Scots minister from Paisley.
 
 00:30:13.801 --> 00:30:15.123
 It studied with Thomas Hutchinson.
 
 00:30:15.563 --> 00:30:18.845
 And he was writing a
 
 00:30:18.944 --> 00:30:21.227
 response to someone who had
 
 00:30:21.307 --> 00:30:22.406
 criticized him for
 
 00:30:22.527 --> 00:30:24.568
 supporting Scots immigrants
 
 00:30:24.868 --> 00:30:25.808
 to leave Scotland.
 
 00:30:26.509 --> 00:30:27.931
 And I thought, well, what is this?
 
 00:30:28.851 --> 00:30:29.191
 Now,
 
 00:30:31.172 --> 00:30:32.232
 people have written about Scots
 
 00:30:32.272 --> 00:30:33.074
 immigrants before.
 
 00:30:33.114 --> 00:30:34.734
 David Dobson, J.M.
 
 00:30:34.755 --> 00:30:36.295
 Brumfield have done a lot of
 
 00:30:36.336 --> 00:30:36.955
 terrific work.
 
 00:30:37.395 --> 00:30:38.396
 But what really interested
 
 00:30:38.457 --> 00:30:41.859
 me was the political response,
 
 00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.461
 particularly in Scotland,
 
 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.003
 to what they conceived of as a crisis.
 
 00:30:48.003 --> 00:30:51.767
 Because the land owners, the legal jurists,
 
 00:30:51.807 --> 00:30:53.228
 the politicians began to
 
 00:30:53.347 --> 00:30:55.309
 argue that if we allow
 
 00:30:55.569 --> 00:30:56.431
 these people to leave,
 
 00:30:56.490 --> 00:30:58.711
 it will drain Scotland of its resources.
 
 00:30:59.732 --> 00:31:01.775
 And especially as events
 
 00:31:01.835 --> 00:31:03.935
 took a difficult turn in North America,
 
 00:31:04.336 --> 00:31:05.518
 increasing fears that
 
 00:31:06.508 --> 00:31:08.009
 if we keep allowing people to go,
 
 00:31:08.288 --> 00:31:10.250
 they could be on the wrong side, you know,
 
 00:31:10.329 --> 00:31:11.369
 particularly Highlanders
 
 00:31:11.430 --> 00:31:14.510
 who they never really quite get over the,
 
 00:31:15.010 --> 00:31:15.152
 um,
 
 00:31:15.511 --> 00:31:17.792
 suspicions after the Jacobite rebellion.
 
 00:31:17.873 --> 00:31:20.413
 So, so I was off to the races after that.
 
 00:31:20.854 --> 00:31:21.114
 Wow.
 
 00:31:21.134 --> 00:31:22.433
 It's a great topic.
 
 00:31:23.174 --> 00:31:23.615
 And, uh,
 
 00:31:24.161 --> 00:31:25.882
 Yeah, I'm slowly working on a book.
 
 00:31:25.961 --> 00:31:27.403
 My editor is very patient,
 
 00:31:27.903 --> 00:31:29.183
 but I'm writing a podcast
 
 00:31:29.223 --> 00:31:29.964
 and a book right now.
 
 00:31:30.065 --> 00:31:30.845
 That's good.
 
 00:31:30.904 --> 00:31:32.066
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:31:32.806 --> 00:31:33.707
 We'll try to cut this short
 
 00:31:33.727 --> 00:31:36.308
 so you can get back to writing.
 
 00:31:36.489 --> 00:31:37.690
 Jonathan tells me that there
 
 00:31:37.710 --> 00:31:38.849
 were Scottish prisoners of
 
 00:31:38.910 --> 00:31:40.411
 war all over Massachusetts
 
 00:31:40.471 --> 00:31:40.872
 beginning in 1776.
 
 00:31:40.872 --> 00:31:41.571
 Yeah, that makes sense.
 
 00:31:41.592 --> 00:31:42.492
 Yeah, because in early 1776,
 
 00:31:42.492 --> 00:31:42.932
 members of the 71st
 
 00:31:42.952 --> 00:31:43.593
 Highland Regiment were
 
 00:31:43.613 --> 00:31:44.733
 captured by American privateers.
 
 00:31:44.753 --> 00:31:44.834
 Yeah.
 
 00:31:53.358 --> 00:31:56.621
 when they were sailing to
 
 00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:59.083
 reinforce General Gage in Boston.
 
 00:31:59.803 --> 00:32:02.263
 And there is some evidence
 
 00:32:02.304 --> 00:32:04.645
 to suggest that that leads
 
 00:32:04.726 --> 00:32:06.226
 to or inspires part of
 
 00:32:06.286 --> 00:32:07.626
 Jefferson's original draft
 
 00:32:07.666 --> 00:32:08.827
 of the Declaration when he
 
 00:32:08.907 --> 00:32:10.969
 equates Scotch soldiers
 
 00:32:11.009 --> 00:32:12.309
 with foreign mercenaries.
 
 00:32:12.630 --> 00:32:13.150
 Interesting.
 
 00:32:13.450 --> 00:32:14.590
 So that eventually gets
 
 00:32:14.631 --> 00:32:16.432
 deleted by Witherspoon.
 
 00:32:16.912 --> 00:32:17.732
 Yeah, interesting.
 
 00:32:18.113 --> 00:32:18.232
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:18.452 --> 00:32:19.093
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:19.192 --> 00:32:20.094
 As that's the episode where
 
 00:32:20.114 --> 00:32:21.473
 the ship comes into Boston,
 
 00:32:21.513 --> 00:32:22.934
 not realizing that the
 
 00:32:22.994 --> 00:32:24.174
 British have already evacuated.
 
 00:32:24.755 --> 00:32:25.576
 Yeah, exactly.
 
 00:32:25.655 --> 00:32:25.895
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:26.056 --> 00:32:26.355
 Whoops.
 
 00:32:26.915 --> 00:32:27.855
 Bad luck all around.
 
 00:32:28.317 --> 00:32:29.257
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:30.057 --> 00:32:32.637
 And there are other Scots, of course.
 
 00:32:32.917 --> 00:32:34.278
 I remember at the time of
 
 00:32:34.298 --> 00:32:35.479
 the ratification debates,
 
 00:32:35.499 --> 00:32:35.939
 there was a lot of
 
 00:32:35.979 --> 00:32:36.740
 discussion of a Lord
 
 00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:38.019
 Belhaven who had opposed
 
 00:32:38.059 --> 00:32:39.121
 the union of Britain and
 
 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:41.280
 England and Scotland back in 1707.
 
 00:32:41.280 --> 00:32:43.442
 And the anti-federalists
 
 00:32:43.541 --> 00:32:45.482
 kept citing Lord Belhaven and
 
 00:32:46.526 --> 00:32:48.107
 The Federalists also said
 
 00:32:48.208 --> 00:32:49.189
 they were kind of wary, though,
 
 00:32:49.209 --> 00:32:49.869
 because he had been
 
 00:32:50.009 --> 00:32:52.071
 executed for his opposition to the Union.
 
 00:32:53.208 --> 00:32:55.470
 Yeah, that one I'm not quite aware of.
 
 00:32:55.569 --> 00:32:56.390
 But interestingly enough,
 
 00:32:56.410 --> 00:32:57.711
 there was a lot of debate
 
 00:32:58.811 --> 00:33:01.913
 in the late 1770s when they
 
 00:33:01.933 --> 00:33:02.894
 were drafting the Articles
 
 00:33:02.934 --> 00:33:03.796
 of Confederation.
 
 00:33:03.816 --> 00:33:06.518
 And there's interesting back
 
 00:33:06.577 --> 00:33:07.798
 and forth between Benjamin
 
 00:33:07.838 --> 00:33:08.459
 Franklin and John
 
 00:33:08.479 --> 00:33:09.359
 Witherspoon because they're
 
 00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:10.420
 asking Witherspoon,
 
 00:33:11.020 --> 00:33:12.102
 what kind of union is
 
 00:33:12.162 --> 00:33:13.102
 England and Scotland?
 
 00:33:13.142 --> 00:33:14.563
 What is Great Britain?
 
 00:33:15.263 --> 00:33:16.404
 Because they're trying to think about,
 
 00:33:16.505 --> 00:33:17.905
 is this going to be a republic,
 
 00:33:17.965 --> 00:33:19.247
 a federated republic, or...
 
 00:33:19.906 --> 00:33:21.748
 as it is within, in Britain at the time,
 
 00:33:22.127 --> 00:33:22.528
 essentially an
 
 00:33:22.588 --> 00:33:23.729
 incorporating union that
 
 00:33:23.808 --> 00:33:24.890
 creates a new state.
 
 00:33:25.450 --> 00:33:25.891
 Interesting.
 
 00:33:25.931 --> 00:33:26.151
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:26.371 --> 00:33:27.111
 That's why over the old
 
 00:33:27.172 --> 00:33:27.991
 state house in Boston,
 
 00:33:28.011 --> 00:33:29.393
 we have the lion and the unicorn,
 
 00:33:29.432 --> 00:33:30.614
 and that was built shortly
 
 00:33:30.814 --> 00:33:31.834
 after the union.
 
 00:33:31.913 --> 00:33:33.855
 So we're thinking about this new entity.
 
 00:33:34.276 --> 00:33:34.715
 Right, right.
 
 00:33:34.736 --> 00:33:35.215
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:35.236 --> 00:33:35.375
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:36.683 --> 00:33:38.786
 And then Franklin, sometime in the 1760s,
 
 00:33:38.846 --> 00:33:41.627
 said the fear was that the
 
 00:33:41.667 --> 00:33:42.989
 whale would swallow Jonah.
 
 00:33:43.048 --> 00:33:44.170
 But he said, in this case,
 
 00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:45.990
 Jonah has swallowed the whale.
 
 00:33:46.172 --> 00:33:46.731
 Exactly.
 
 00:33:46.751 --> 00:33:47.813
 Looking at Lord Booth and
 
 00:33:47.833 --> 00:33:49.193
 other Scots who had become
 
 00:33:49.233 --> 00:33:52.115
 such influential figures in the empire.
 
 00:33:52.457 --> 00:33:52.957
 Well, I mean,
 
 00:33:53.156 --> 00:33:55.999
 when the Scots joined the Union, I mean,
 
 00:33:56.019 --> 00:33:57.000
 that was one of the primary...
 
 00:33:58.161 --> 00:33:59.261
 main motivators for joining
 
 00:33:59.281 --> 00:34:00.182
 the Union is they could get
 
 00:34:00.261 --> 00:34:01.303
 access to the empire.
 
 00:34:01.982 --> 00:34:04.364
 It would be inside the
 
 00:34:04.403 --> 00:34:05.404
 Navigation Acts now.
 
 00:34:05.444 --> 00:34:05.664
 I mean,
 
 00:34:05.684 --> 00:34:07.346
 the Scots had tried empire at Darien.
 
 00:34:07.846 --> 00:34:09.086
 It failed miserably.
 
 00:34:09.106 --> 00:34:10.748
 They had tried at Nova Scotia,
 
 00:34:10.768 --> 00:34:11.867
 and the early 17th century
 
 00:34:11.907 --> 00:34:12.568
 had not worked.
 
 00:34:13.728 --> 00:34:14.929
 But when the Scots joined the Union,
 
 00:34:14.989 --> 00:34:17.233
 and particularly from the 1750s onwards,
 
 00:34:18.012 --> 00:34:18.813
 they essentially take
 
 00:34:18.873 --> 00:34:20.255
 control of the tobacco trade.
 
 00:34:21.277 --> 00:34:24.199
 A disproportionate number of
 
 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:25.880
 Scots are colonial governors,
 
 00:34:26.402 --> 00:34:27.302
 army officers.
 
 00:34:28.163 --> 00:34:28.884
 Ned Lansman,
 
 00:34:29.043 --> 00:34:31.606
 great historian of Scotland and America,
 
 00:34:31.746 --> 00:34:32.568
 says that Scots are
 
 00:34:32.608 --> 00:34:34.869
 entrenched in the machinery of empire.
 
 00:34:34.949 --> 00:34:35.331
 And they...
 
 00:34:36.070 --> 00:34:36.652
 they made it work.
 
 00:34:36.771 --> 00:34:37.273
 And, you know,
 
 00:34:37.554 --> 00:34:38.355
 to your earlier question
 
 00:34:38.375 --> 00:34:39.275
 that it helps to explain
 
 00:34:39.335 --> 00:34:41.278
 why so many Scots are loyal
 
 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.380
 in the 1760s and 1770s.
 
 00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:44.443
 Because as you said,
 
 00:34:44.483 --> 00:34:45.465
 the empire really was
 
 00:34:45.545 --> 00:34:46.646
 working for them and they
 
 00:34:46.686 --> 00:34:47.748
 were working in it.
 
 00:34:47.889 --> 00:34:48.309
 So yes.
 
 00:34:48.570 --> 00:34:49.612
 Right, right, right.
 
 00:34:49.711 --> 00:34:49.931
 Yeah.
 
 00:34:49.952 --> 00:34:51.193
 And they, but they, uh,
 
 00:34:52.047 --> 00:34:53.367
 They annoyed Virginia planters,
 
 00:34:53.547 --> 00:34:55.369
 particularly Anglo-Virginians,
 
 00:34:55.429 --> 00:34:58.411
 who are worried that, as they would say,
 
 00:34:58.471 --> 00:35:00.992
 quote, enslaving them to debt and whatnot,
 
 00:35:01.112 --> 00:35:02.014
 because they are very
 
 00:35:02.074 --> 00:35:03.614
 efficient at using the credit system.
 
 00:35:04.655 --> 00:35:05.496
 The Virginians just couldn't
 
 00:35:05.516 --> 00:35:06.115
 help themselves.
 
 00:35:06.916 --> 00:35:07.817
 They couldn't.
 
 00:35:09.438 --> 00:35:10.619
 We've been talking with Jim
 
 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.480
 Emboski from the Roy
 
 00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:14.021
 Rosenzweig Center for
 
 00:35:14.061 --> 00:35:15.041
 History and New Media,
 
 00:35:15.081 --> 00:35:16.523
 producer of the World's
 
 00:35:16.563 --> 00:35:18.304
 Turned Upside Down podcast, and
 
 00:35:18.829 --> 00:35:19.851
 involved with other public
 
 00:35:19.891 --> 00:35:21.773
 history projects, podcast projects.
 
 00:35:21.813 --> 00:35:23.056
 Jim, it's been great talking to you.
 
 00:35:23.097 --> 00:35:24.639
 Is there anything else we
 
 00:35:24.659 --> 00:35:26.101
 should talk about before we let you go?
 
 00:35:27.637 --> 00:35:30.059
 I would just say to folks, thank you, Bob,
 
 00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:31.599
 for all the work, and you, Jonathan,
 
 00:35:31.641 --> 00:35:32.501
 behind the scenes there for
 
 00:35:32.521 --> 00:35:33.302
 all the work you're doing
 
 00:35:33.342 --> 00:35:34.503
 to promote the 250.
 
 00:35:34.503 --> 00:35:37.626
 This is a real moment where we can,
 
 00:35:37.646 --> 00:35:38.407
 I think,
 
 00:35:38.447 --> 00:35:39.789
 re-energize the public's interest
 
 00:35:39.829 --> 00:35:40.429
 in history.
 
 00:35:41.130 --> 00:35:42.530
 And also, as you know,
 
 00:35:42.590 --> 00:35:43.853
 and many of your audiences know,
 
 00:35:43.873 --> 00:35:46.375
 we're going to be excited
 
 00:35:46.434 --> 00:35:47.295
 in 2026 for the 250, the declaration.
 
 00:35:47.315 --> 00:35:47.376
 But
 
 00:35:50.818 --> 00:35:51.860
 that's just the declaration.
 
 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:53.621
 The war doesn't end for another few years.
 
 00:35:53.702 --> 00:35:55.282
 And so there is a lot of
 
 00:35:55.382 --> 00:35:56.905
 ground that we can cover.
 
 00:35:56.965 --> 00:35:58.186
 There's a lot of creativity
 
 00:35:58.206 --> 00:35:59.606
 that we can tap into.
 
 00:35:59.726 --> 00:36:02.949
 And so hopefully the
 
 00:36:03.010 --> 00:36:03.869
 audience is out there that
 
 00:36:03.889 --> 00:36:06.072
 are excited to hear what we have to say.
 
 00:36:06.913 --> 00:36:08.514
 Hopefully, and we'll keep them excited.
 
 00:36:08.574 --> 00:36:09.054
 So thank you.
 
 00:36:09.094 --> 00:36:09.815
 Thank you for all you're
 
 00:36:09.835 --> 00:36:10.635
 doing with the world's
 
 00:36:10.675 --> 00:36:11.936
 turned upside down and other things.
 
 00:36:11.996 --> 00:36:14.860
 So speaking of our audience,
 
 00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:16.460
 I want to thank our friends in
 
 00:36:17.742 --> 00:36:18.702
 around the country and also
 
 00:36:18.742 --> 00:36:20.943
 around the world who tune in every week.
 
 00:36:21.043 --> 00:36:22.304
 And if you're in one of these places,
 
 00:36:22.364 --> 00:36:23.804
 send Jonathan Lane an email,
 
 00:36:23.824 --> 00:36:26.244
 jlane at revolution250.org,
 
 00:36:26.264 --> 00:36:27.166
 and he'll send you some of
 
 00:36:27.246 --> 00:36:29.266
 our Rev 250 swag.
 
 00:36:29.326 --> 00:36:31.407
 So this week, Lincoln, California,
 
 00:36:31.867 --> 00:36:34.188
 Irvington, New Jersey, and Spartanburg,
 
 00:36:34.228 --> 00:36:36.628
 South Carolina, Yokohama, Japan,
 
 00:36:36.929 --> 00:36:38.949
 and here in the Bay State, Boston,
 
 00:36:38.989 --> 00:36:39.530
 and Brighton.
 
 00:36:39.570 --> 00:36:40.610
 Thank you all for listening
 
 00:36:40.650 --> 00:36:42.510
 and all folks in places
 
 00:36:42.570 --> 00:36:43.891
 beyond and between.
 
 00:36:44.652 --> 00:36:46.032
 And now we will be piped out
 
 00:36:46.193 --> 00:36:47.052
 on the road to Boston.