Henry Knox, Boston book-seller and emerging patriot, in 1774 married Lucy Flucker, daughter of the Provincial Secretary and leading loyalist. Lucy's family would leave with the loyalist evacuation in March 1776, forced out by the cannon Henry brought from Ticonderoga. Lucy would never see them again. She and Henry would exchange more than 500 letters over the course of their married life, letters which Philip Hamilton has used for this window into the Revolutionary world. The Revolutionary War Lives and Letters of Lucy and Henry Knox are from the war--Henry would be with the army from the siege of Boston through Yorktown, and he and Lucy, young, bright, and in love, shared it all.
Henry Knox, Boston book-seller and emerging patriot, in 1774 married Lucy Flucker, daughter of the Provincial Secretary and leading loyalist. Lucy's family would leave with the loyalist evacuation in March 1776, forced out by the cannon Henry brought from Ticonderoga. Lucy would never see them again. She and Henry would exchange more than 500 letters over the course of their married life, letters which Philip Hamilton has used for this window into the Revolutionary world. The Revolutionary War Lives and Letters of Lucy and Henry Knox are from the war--Henry would be with the army from the siege of Boston through Yorktown, and he and Lucy, young, bright, and in love, shared it all.
WEBVTT
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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
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I am Bob Allison.
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I chair the Rev 250 advisory group.
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We're a consortium of about
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70 organizations in
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Massachusetts planning ways
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to commemorate the
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beginnings of American independence.
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And our guest today is Philip Hamilton,
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who is a professor of
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history at Christopher
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Newport University in Virginia,
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historian of the Revolution
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and early Republic.
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And he is the author of a
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number of books on the Revolution.
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Unmaking of a Revolutionary
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Family about the Tuckers of Virginia.
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He's also written a history
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of Christopher Newport University.
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And we are here to talk
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about his most recent book,
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The Revolutionary War Lives
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and Letters of Lucy and Henry Knopf.
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Phil, thanks for joining us.
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Thank you.
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Thank you, Bob.
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It's an honor to be here.
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I love your podcast,
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and I'm delighted to be here today.
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Well, thank you.
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I loved your book.
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I mean,
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it's great to have Lucy and Henry
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presented in this way.
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So, you know,
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let's talk about these
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letters and how you got
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into writing a book about
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the Knox's based on their
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fascinating correspondence.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I'm currently researching
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and writing a larger
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biography of Henry Knox.
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But as I read during my research,
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as I read the letters
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between Knox and his wife Lucy,
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I was just struck by their accessibility,
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by their, you know,
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it seemed as if they're
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writing in the 21st century.
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They touch upon so many
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interesting facets of life,
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not only the American Revolution,
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but they touch upon their love,
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they touch upon their interests.
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Letter writing was the only
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way in which they could
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express themselves when they were apart,
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and they were apart a lot
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during the American Revolution,
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that's for sure.
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And so I did want to present, you know,
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I wanted them to tell the
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story themselves and, you know,
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what they experienced during the war.
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And so I'm delighted at the
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positive response that I've
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gotten from the book.
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Yeah, they really are.
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They both emerge as
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three-dimensional characters in this.
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And they're very young when
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they meet and when they get married.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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When the revolution begins,
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Lucy was just 18 and Henry was was 24.
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And, you know,
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they're they were the same
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age as as the students in my classes.
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And and and so I use this
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book in my my my.
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American Revolution class.
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And the students love it
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because they can really
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relate to the same emotions
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that Lucy and Henry were
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going through of missing a loved one,
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the excitement of a newfound love,
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and then the fear that they
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might not ever be together again,
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especially as Henry went
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off on campaigns.
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And so again,
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they just touch upon so many relatable
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facets of their lives.
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And it didn't matter if they
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lived in the 18th century
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or the 21st century.
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And then Lucy really is.
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When Henry goes off to war,
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she was isolated because
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her entire family had disowned her.
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And they, in fact,
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had been disowned by the
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place where they grew up.
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Can we talk a little bit
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about her background?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Lucy was from a loyalist family.
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Her father was Thomas Flucker.
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He was the royal secretary
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of Massachusetts,
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which made him the third
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ranking crown official.
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And he was a staunch patriot.
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And when Lucy and Henry
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began to court one another,
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uh thomas was not at all
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happy with this and and he
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had to be persuaded uh to
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to permit the marriage to
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go forward and then uh he
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and his wife hannah flucker
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they refused to attend the ceremony
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But nevertheless,
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they did accede to the marriage.
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But when the revolution
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broke out and when Henry
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and Lucy escaped from
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Boston shortly after
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Lexington and Concord,
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they broke off all contact with them.
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That was devastating because
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Lucy was still a teenager
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and then she misses her
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husband who's off on
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dangerous missions and she
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misses her family.
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She wrote to her family
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during the siege of Boston,
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and they never responded to her.
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And that was so painful.
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That was so painful,
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especially because during
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the siege of Boston,
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Lucy became pregnant with
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her first child.
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And there is Henry off to Ticonderoga,
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getting the guns and then
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busy with the siege when he did return.
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And so you can imagine the
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emotional turmoil that she
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underwent during the
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opening stages of the war.
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Yeah.
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And of course,
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she's moved out of Boston
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and he has her in a safe
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place where she wouldn't
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have known anyone like Worcester.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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She was at Worcester
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throughout the first part of the siege.
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And then when he went off to Ticonderoga,
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he brought her to Watertown
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a little bit closer.
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But still, you know, she still felt very,
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very isolated.
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And and that was such a
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painful time for her.
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Oh, yeah.
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Yeah.
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What can we tell,
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what do we know about Lucy as a person?
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What do we learn from the
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letters about her that might surprise us?
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Yeah, well,
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she is certainly a strong-willed woman,
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and that comes across from
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her first letters onward.
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She obviously was very well educated.
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She knew quite a bit about literature.
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We don't know much about the
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details of her education,
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but it was clearly very good.
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uh and and she she could
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discuss a number of
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different subjects so she
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was you know very
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interesting I think that's
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what made her so
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interesting to henry
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because he was uh
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interested in so many uh
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different subjects and and
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and so but she she was a
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very ambitious woman uh as
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was henry uh and so they
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were a terrific match with
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for one another.
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In many respects,
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they were very much alike,
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but there were enough
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differences to keep each
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other intrigued throughout
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their entire lives,
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throughout their entire marriage.
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kind of court him or by?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Initially, yeah, yeah.
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That was a remark made by a cousin that,
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you know,
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she she was fascinated by him as
0:07:06.298 --> 0:07:07.098
soon as she met him.
0:07:07.158 --> 0:07:08.838
She met him, I believe, in 1772.
0:07:10.259 --> 0:07:11.740
She met him in Henry's
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bookstore in Boston.
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And and and this cousin said that,
0:07:17.163 --> 0:07:17.403
you know,
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she seemed to court him at first.
0:07:21.225 --> 0:07:21.384
And
0:07:22.305 --> 0:07:22.625
However,
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I don't think it took much effort
0:07:24.505 --> 0:07:25.586
on her to catch Henry.
0:07:26.266 --> 0:07:29.728
I think he was equally fascinated by her,
0:07:29.809 --> 0:07:32.290
but I think her courtship habits
0:07:34.696 --> 0:07:36.576
illustrate her determination
0:07:36.617 --> 0:07:38.437
to get what she wanted.
0:07:38.458 --> 0:07:41.019
And she did persuade her
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very reluctant father to at
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least permit the marriage
0:07:44.740 --> 0:07:46.002
to go forward in 1774.
0:07:46.002 --> 0:07:48.322
But she always wanted to have her way.
0:07:48.442 --> 0:07:50.704
And during the revolution,
0:07:50.723 --> 0:07:52.485
so frequently she could not.
0:07:59.788 --> 0:08:00.930
And so so sometimes
0:08:00.990 --> 0:08:02.192
occasionally she comes
0:08:02.252 --> 0:08:05.194
across as as petty in the
0:08:05.255 --> 0:08:08.139
letters and especially
0:08:08.199 --> 0:08:10.922
during long periods of separation.
0:08:11.161 --> 0:08:11.622
Right.
0:08:11.682 --> 0:08:12.803
For instance, during the New York,
0:08:12.843 --> 0:08:14.045
New Jersey campaign and
0:08:14.065 --> 0:08:16.369
then during the Philadelphia campaign.
0:08:16.928 --> 0:08:19.632
But I think you have to put
0:08:19.791 --> 0:08:22.694
her words into a broader context.
0:08:23.456 --> 0:08:24.858
Again, as I was saying before,
0:08:24.978 --> 0:08:27.040
she was abandoned by her family,
0:08:27.540 --> 0:08:29.221
which continued to be very painful.
0:08:29.942 --> 0:08:31.485
After her first daughter was born,
0:08:31.845 --> 0:08:33.285
she was basically a single
0:08:33.346 --> 0:08:35.528
parent raising her child.
0:08:37.711 --> 0:08:38.932
And so she had a lot,
0:08:39.072 --> 0:08:41.316
a lot on her plate to deal with.
0:08:41.657 --> 0:08:44.539
And so it was very human of
0:08:44.580 --> 0:08:47.183
her to complain to Henry
0:08:47.203 --> 0:08:48.325
and to want to be with him.
0:08:48.885 --> 0:08:49.145
Right.
0:08:50.086 --> 0:08:50.668
Yeah.
0:08:50.888 --> 0:08:52.009
And we can understand that.
0:08:52.446 --> 0:08:53.687
And her isolation,
0:08:53.986 --> 0:08:55.187
and then her husband is off
0:08:55.227 --> 0:08:56.489
doing all kinds of things,
0:08:56.548 --> 0:08:58.230
but why isn't he spending time with her?
0:08:58.250 --> 0:08:59.711
I mean, he also feels that pull,
0:08:59.750 --> 0:09:01.871
these two duties he has to
0:09:02.253 --> 0:09:04.214
Lucy and to his country.
0:09:04.394 --> 0:09:06.115
And that's, I think, very much challenged.
0:09:06.375 --> 0:09:06.975
Yeah, yeah.
0:09:07.096 --> 0:09:07.995
And that was,
0:09:08.636 --> 0:09:09.857
I think those are some of the
0:09:09.898 --> 0:09:11.379
most fascinating letters
0:09:11.578 --> 0:09:13.279
when they're arguing when
0:09:13.340 --> 0:09:14.921
Lucy wants him to leave the army.
0:09:15.701 --> 0:09:19.063
This came up in 1777,
0:09:19.063 --> 0:09:20.845
in particular at the end of
0:09:20.904 --> 0:09:22.066
the Philadelphia campaign.
0:09:22.885 --> 0:09:27.908
And Henry shuts her down on that front.
0:09:27.947 --> 0:09:28.687
He says, you know,
0:09:28.707 --> 0:09:30.308
you've written words that
0:09:30.668 --> 0:09:33.309
will be forever painful to me,
0:09:34.429 --> 0:09:36.671
and I just ask you never to
0:09:36.711 --> 0:09:37.591
bring this up again.
0:09:40.471 --> 0:09:42.092
But he does pledge to her
0:09:42.472 --> 0:09:43.753
toward the end of this letter that,
0:09:43.773 --> 0:09:45.114
you know, the rest of
0:09:46.193 --> 0:09:47.615
his life after the war will
0:09:47.655 --> 0:09:51.359
be dedicated to her and to her desires.
0:09:51.479 --> 0:09:53.821
And I have to say that, you know,
0:09:53.860 --> 0:09:56.322
he did live up to that promise.
0:09:57.384 --> 0:09:59.605
And, you know, he was very,
0:09:59.645 --> 0:10:01.767
very dedicated to her after the war.
0:10:03.028 --> 0:10:04.009
And that comes across in
0:10:04.028 --> 0:10:05.951
their many fewer surviving
0:10:05.971 --> 0:10:07.011
letters after the war.
0:10:07.312 --> 0:10:07.753
Right.
0:10:07.793 --> 0:10:09.553
Well, they're together after the war.
0:10:09.573 --> 0:10:10.195
Yes, indeed.
0:10:10.934 --> 0:10:12.216
And they were also together
0:10:12.355 --> 0:10:13.076
later on in the
0:10:13.991 --> 0:10:16.134
You know, after the Monmouth campaign,
0:10:16.153 --> 0:10:17.835
they were, you know,
0:10:17.875 --> 0:10:19.535
when the nature of the war
0:10:19.956 --> 0:10:21.736
for the Continental Army shifted,
0:10:22.758 --> 0:10:24.438
they were together much of the time.
0:10:24.499 --> 0:10:28.081
So there are many fewer letters, you know,
0:10:28.181 --> 0:10:30.621
unfortunately for we historians.
0:10:31.543 --> 0:10:32.984
But nevertheless,
0:10:34.044 --> 0:10:36.105
they very much appreciated
0:10:36.166 --> 0:10:37.787
being together toward the end of the war.
0:10:38.563 --> 0:10:38.724
Right.
0:10:39.124 --> 0:10:39.244
Yeah,
0:10:39.283 --> 0:10:41.044
we're talking with Phil Hamilton from
0:10:41.125 --> 0:10:42.745
Christopher Newport University,
0:10:42.825 --> 0:10:43.865
and he has written the
0:10:43.926 --> 0:10:45.225
Revolutionary War Letter,
0:10:45.306 --> 0:10:48.206
Lives and Letters of Lucy and Henry Knox,
0:10:48.267 --> 0:10:49.868
which is a fascinating book.
0:10:49.908 --> 0:10:50.687
And you have a lot of great
0:10:50.807 --> 0:10:52.048
scenes in the book.
0:10:52.129 --> 0:10:52.308
I mean,
0:10:52.369 --> 0:10:54.710
his description in a letter to Lucy
0:10:54.870 --> 0:10:57.029
of the Battle of Trenton is
0:10:57.090 --> 0:10:58.471
really terrific
0:10:58.971 --> 0:11:00.371
recapitulation of what happened.
0:11:00.392 --> 0:11:01.251
But then you also have this
0:11:01.272 --> 0:11:16.211
scene in July of 1770,
0:11:16.211 --> 0:11:17.272
Yeah,
0:11:17.331 --> 0:11:25.037
that was a fascinating series of letters.
0:11:26.217 --> 0:11:27.678
Lucy joined Henry in New
0:11:27.739 --> 0:11:31.562
York in May of 1776 as the
0:11:31.642 --> 0:11:32.763
Americans were waiting for
0:11:32.802 --> 0:11:34.183
the British to finally show up.
0:11:35.063 --> 0:11:37.586
And Henry knew that Lucy
0:11:38.106 --> 0:11:40.168
should have left because
0:11:40.188 --> 0:11:42.171
they had their daughter with them,
0:11:42.772 --> 0:11:44.793
who was about five months
0:11:44.894 --> 0:11:46.034
old at that point in time.
0:11:46.895 --> 0:11:48.677
And Henry had purchased a
0:11:48.717 --> 0:11:51.701
carriage beforehand in June
0:11:51.721 --> 0:11:54.222
in case the British did
0:11:54.302 --> 0:11:56.365
come and she had to make a hasty escape.
0:11:57.846 --> 0:12:00.287
And even though scouts had
0:12:00.307 --> 0:12:01.528
decided the British fleet
0:12:02.629 --> 0:12:04.769
and he did urge her to leave him,
0:12:05.429 --> 0:12:08.390
she refused and he put up with it.
0:12:08.510 --> 0:12:14.094
So on the morning of July 1st, 1776,
0:12:14.094 --> 0:12:15.114
as the British fleet was
0:12:15.193 --> 0:12:16.053
coming through the New York
0:12:16.114 --> 0:12:18.355
Narrows and they see this
0:12:19.056 --> 0:12:21.157
massive fleet coming upon them,
0:12:21.496 --> 0:12:22.216
they thought they were,
0:12:22.677 --> 0:12:23.998
it looked as if they were about to
0:12:24.932 --> 0:12:25.793
launching amphibious
0:12:25.874 --> 0:12:27.236
invasion of lower Manhattan.
0:12:28.158 --> 0:12:30.101
Fortunately, for all concerned,
0:12:30.162 --> 0:12:30.884
the British
0:12:31.417 --> 0:12:35.678
They attacked to the left
0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.461
and landed at Staten Island.
0:12:37.500 --> 0:12:38.841
But Henry didn't know that.
0:12:39.341 --> 0:12:41.102
And so when they were having
0:12:41.163 --> 0:12:42.023
breakfast together,
0:12:42.823 --> 0:12:45.105
he said he wrote that he
0:12:45.184 --> 0:12:46.666
scolded her like a fury.
0:12:48.267 --> 0:12:50.628
And I argue that I think he
0:12:50.668 --> 0:12:53.110
was mad at himself for not
0:12:53.610 --> 0:12:56.792
exerting his patriarchal will upon her.
0:12:56.812 --> 0:12:57.211
And
0:12:59.426 --> 0:13:00.908
forcing her to leave.
0:13:01.749 --> 0:13:04.032
But Lucy was in tears when she left.
0:13:04.552 --> 0:13:06.936
And that, I believe,
0:13:06.995 --> 0:13:08.758
initiated their first argument,
0:13:08.798 --> 0:13:10.000
their first series of arguments,
0:13:10.059 --> 0:13:11.480
which plays out in their
0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.283
July letters to one another.
0:13:15.982 --> 0:13:19.765
And Lucy in those letters in July,
0:13:19.826 --> 0:13:20.907
she kept threatening to
0:13:20.947 --> 0:13:21.967
come back to the army,
0:13:22.628 --> 0:13:24.048
even though the British
0:13:24.068 --> 0:13:26.010
were in camp just miles away.
0:13:27.172 --> 0:13:28.714
And Henry was saying,
0:13:28.734 --> 0:13:30.095
you better not come back here.
0:13:31.796 --> 0:13:34.578
And so there was this kind
0:13:34.619 --> 0:13:36.801
of back and forth argument
0:13:36.860 --> 0:13:39.001
that went on for about three weeks.
0:13:40.082 --> 0:13:41.764
And they finally did make up.
0:13:43.413 --> 0:13:44.493
Yeah, fortunately.
0:13:44.513 --> 0:13:47.453
Now,
0:13:47.514 --> 0:13:48.413
one of the things we know about
0:13:48.474 --> 0:13:48.974
Washington,
0:13:49.014 --> 0:13:49.934
he seemed to be a very good
0:13:49.955 --> 0:13:51.514
judge of character and talent.
0:13:51.615 --> 0:13:52.894
And Henry Knox is someone
0:13:52.934 --> 0:13:54.296
who impresses Washington
0:13:54.375 --> 0:13:56.655
almost immediately when he meets him.
0:13:57.515 --> 0:14:00.096
And then Washington also had
0:14:00.336 --> 0:14:01.697
a good relationship with
0:14:01.777 --> 0:14:03.998
Lucy the time she was in camp.
0:14:04.118 --> 0:14:06.158
And can we talk a little bit
0:14:06.197 --> 0:14:08.198
more about Lucy and what
0:14:08.239 --> 0:14:09.379
George and Martha and
0:14:10.269 --> 0:14:11.370
Yeah, yeah.
0:14:11.750 --> 0:14:12.230
I mean,
0:14:12.370 --> 0:14:14.393
they all got along with one another.
0:14:14.413 --> 0:14:17.995
I think Lucy's reading,
0:14:18.034 --> 0:14:20.856
because she was from an
0:14:20.897 --> 0:14:22.977
elite family and she knew
0:14:23.038 --> 0:14:26.880
how to comport herself in refined company,
0:14:26.980 --> 0:14:28.642
and that was the Washingtons.
0:14:29.743 --> 0:14:32.065
And so because they came
0:14:32.105 --> 0:14:33.205
from a similar class,
0:14:34.186 --> 0:14:35.466
I believe that's one of the
0:14:35.506 --> 0:14:37.707
reasons why Lucy and Martha
0:14:37.748 --> 0:14:39.769
got along so very well.
0:14:40.570 --> 0:14:42.251
uh and and you know and they
0:14:42.292 --> 0:14:43.673
shared the same interest in
0:14:43.693 --> 0:14:46.717
their children uh and and
0:14:46.857 --> 0:14:48.940
and so I so I i believe
0:14:48.980 --> 0:14:49.902
they just kind of hit it
0:14:50.081 --> 0:14:52.485
off lucy I mean lucy and
0:14:52.565 --> 0:14:55.067
and martha did um but but
0:14:55.128 --> 0:14:56.629
henry and and washington
0:14:56.690 --> 0:14:58.392
got along splendidly as well
0:14:59.596 --> 0:15:02.558
And, you know, fortuitously,
0:15:03.119 --> 0:15:07.662
Henry met Washington on July 5th, 1775,
0:15:07.662 --> 0:15:09.163
just three days after he
0:15:09.183 --> 0:15:10.725
had arrived at Cambridge.
0:15:12.005 --> 0:15:13.606
And, you know,
0:15:13.626 --> 0:15:15.548
Washington was taking his
0:15:16.149 --> 0:15:17.450
measure of the men whom he
0:15:17.490 --> 0:15:18.831
had assumed command of,
0:15:19.331 --> 0:15:22.253
and he realized he needed, you know,
0:15:22.332 --> 0:15:24.335
young men of talent.
0:15:24.534 --> 0:15:26.515
And Washington did have an eye for talent.
0:15:27.797 --> 0:15:30.097
And so he immediately, you know,
0:15:31.798 --> 0:15:34.437
I think he marked Knox for
0:15:34.918 --> 0:15:37.479
promotion after their first meeting.
0:15:37.599 --> 0:15:39.078
And because Knox was invited
0:15:39.158 --> 0:15:40.860
to headquarters at
0:15:40.899 --> 0:15:42.600
Cambridge just four days
0:15:42.799 --> 0:15:46.081
after that chance encounter.
0:15:47.041 --> 0:15:50.282
And so and from there on in, you know,
0:15:50.302 --> 0:15:51.501
for the next 20 years,
0:15:51.642 --> 0:15:53.903
they were they were, you know,
0:15:54.423 --> 0:15:55.423
almost tied at the hip.
0:15:56.710 --> 0:15:56.909
Yeah,
0:15:57.169 --> 0:15:59.291
he really was Washington's right hand.
0:15:59.431 --> 0:16:02.251
And to be honest,
0:16:02.331 --> 0:16:03.493
most of the men Washington
0:16:03.533 --> 0:16:04.773
met when he first came to
0:16:04.852 --> 0:16:06.374
New England did not impress him.
0:16:06.653 --> 0:16:08.634
But Knox certainly did.
0:16:08.654 --> 0:16:10.014
Yeah, yeah.
0:16:10.095 --> 0:16:11.296
And Knox, I mean,
0:16:11.855 --> 0:16:13.557
even though he came from a
0:16:14.956 --> 0:16:15.918
tradesman background,
0:16:15.957 --> 0:16:18.058
his father was a mariner
0:16:18.078 --> 0:16:20.279
and a ship captain who went
0:16:20.340 --> 0:16:22.240
bankrupt when Knox was a
0:16:22.279 --> 0:16:25.100
little boy and left the family,
0:16:25.140 --> 0:16:26.062
abandoned the family.
0:16:26.662 --> 0:16:27.522
You know,
0:16:27.562 --> 0:16:29.942
even though Knox's background was
0:16:30.263 --> 0:16:31.182
not of the best,
0:16:31.582 --> 0:16:34.244
Knox knew how to comport himself.
0:16:34.364 --> 0:16:35.744
And I mentioned earlier that
0:16:35.764 --> 0:16:36.904
he was very ambitious.
0:16:37.644 --> 0:16:41.365
And he knew how to impress men of wealth.
0:16:42.125 --> 0:16:47.768
And so he was very, very good at that.
0:16:47.927 --> 0:16:50.807
And so these two men just struck it off,
0:16:51.149 --> 0:16:52.629
hit it off right at the beginning.
0:16:53.570 --> 0:16:54.630
I think it's more than just
0:16:54.650 --> 0:16:56.032
trying to impress Washington.
0:16:56.131 --> 0:16:57.192
Washington was impressed
0:16:57.232 --> 0:16:58.274
with the work he had done
0:16:58.333 --> 0:16:59.475
in building this fort.
0:16:59.674 --> 0:17:02.157
He somehow understood fortifications.
0:17:02.397 --> 0:17:02.836
Yeah.
0:17:03.017 --> 0:17:06.039
Oh, that's certainly, I mean, you know,
0:17:06.528 --> 0:17:10.349
Knox's talent came out and
0:17:10.430 --> 0:17:12.230
his talent in military
0:17:12.310 --> 0:17:15.973
engineering and his talent for artillery.
0:17:16.913 --> 0:17:19.536
And so, yeah, no,
0:17:19.695 --> 0:17:20.916
it was a combination of
0:17:20.997 --> 0:17:23.258
factors that made Knox so
0:17:23.317 --> 0:17:24.519
attractive to Washington.
0:17:24.538 --> 0:17:24.618
Yeah.
0:17:25.818 --> 0:17:26.400
And then, of course,
0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.201
Lucy and Martha go to Mount
0:17:28.221 --> 0:17:29.000
Vernon when they're on
0:17:29.020 --> 0:17:30.061
their way to Yorktown.
0:17:30.082 --> 0:17:31.623
It's fascinating reading the letters as
0:17:32.179 --> 0:17:33.440
Henry doesn't really know
0:17:33.500 --> 0:17:34.880
where it is they are going
0:17:35.220 --> 0:17:36.560
or what the plan is.
0:17:36.681 --> 0:17:37.921
And then suddenly they were
0:17:37.941 --> 0:17:39.102
shifting down to the
0:17:39.122 --> 0:17:41.782
Chesapeake and Lucy goes
0:17:41.843 --> 0:17:42.824
along with Martha.
0:17:43.064 --> 0:17:44.584
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:17:44.784 --> 0:17:46.244
And that's a fascinating
0:17:46.305 --> 0:17:49.385
story because Henry was
0:17:49.425 --> 0:17:50.626
very worried about Lucy
0:17:50.686 --> 0:17:52.428
because he had gotten a
0:17:52.488 --> 0:17:55.648
letter from Lucy's brother
0:17:57.490 --> 0:17:59.171
stating that their father,
0:18:00.250 --> 0:18:02.353
was gravely ill in London
0:18:02.512 --> 0:18:04.555
and was not expected to survive.
0:18:05.736 --> 0:18:06.215
And again,
0:18:06.737 --> 0:18:08.458
Lucy had not heard anything from
0:18:08.498 --> 0:18:12.902
her family for the past six years now.
0:18:13.281 --> 0:18:14.383
But she was pregnant again.
0:18:15.663 --> 0:18:17.385
And so Lucy was worried
0:18:17.425 --> 0:18:18.946
about her physical health
0:18:19.047 --> 0:18:20.228
because she did have
0:18:20.268 --> 0:18:21.308
difficult pregnancies.
0:18:21.689 --> 0:18:22.710
I think it was a bit worried
0:18:22.730 --> 0:18:23.951
about her mental health,
0:18:25.392 --> 0:18:26.772
given the fact that her father was
0:18:27.634 --> 0:18:31.015
you know, clearly a death's door.
0:18:31.234 --> 0:18:33.375
And so he went to Washington, I believe,
0:18:33.835 --> 0:18:35.894
and asked if Lucy could
0:18:35.934 --> 0:18:37.976
accompany him to Virginia
0:18:38.115 --> 0:18:39.415
on this Virginia campaign.
0:18:39.855 --> 0:18:42.436
And Washington graciously
0:18:43.237 --> 0:18:44.997
invited Lucy to Mount
0:18:45.037 --> 0:18:47.596
Vernon to stay with Martha
0:18:47.636 --> 0:18:49.298
Washington during the campaign.
0:18:49.337 --> 0:18:51.258
I think that illustrates the
0:18:51.337 --> 0:18:54.239
closeness of the couples
0:18:55.578 --> 0:18:56.959
throughout the Revolutionary War.
0:18:59.455 --> 0:19:00.577
And I think that continued
0:19:00.739 --> 0:19:03.305
on during Washington's presidency.
0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:06.040
We're talking with Phil
0:19:06.060 --> 0:19:07.422
Hamilton from Christopher
0:19:07.461 --> 0:19:08.603
Newport University,
0:19:08.803 --> 0:19:10.183
author of The Revolutionary
0:19:10.203 --> 0:19:11.484
War Lives and Letters of
0:19:11.545 --> 0:19:12.865
Lucy and Henry Knox,
0:19:13.006 --> 0:19:15.288
as well as other books.
0:19:15.827 --> 0:19:17.088
One thing that did surprise
0:19:17.128 --> 0:19:17.970
me as I was reading the
0:19:17.990 --> 0:19:21.813
book was that Lucy's family
0:19:21.893 --> 0:19:23.934
had extensive property holdings.
0:19:24.154 --> 0:19:25.635
And then, of course, as loyalists,
0:19:25.695 --> 0:19:27.497
they're going to forfeit all of that.
0:19:27.557 --> 0:19:28.898
But somehow she was able to
0:19:28.999 --> 0:19:31.319
transfer the title of some
0:19:31.339 --> 0:19:33.241
of the lands to her husband, who
0:19:37.412 --> 0:19:38.652
Massachusetts and the United
0:19:38.692 --> 0:19:40.992
States as opposed to the crown.
0:19:41.032 --> 0:19:41.772
I wonder if you could talk a
0:19:41.792 --> 0:19:43.212
little bit about how that
0:19:43.292 --> 0:19:44.393
happens and what happens
0:19:44.413 --> 0:19:45.373
with the family land.
0:19:45.993 --> 0:19:49.773
Yeah, the so-called the Waldo patent.
0:19:51.914 --> 0:19:53.875
Samuel Waldo was Lucy's
0:19:53.934 --> 0:19:57.296
grandfather and he had
0:19:57.375 --> 0:19:58.615
gained control of this
0:19:58.816 --> 0:20:02.596
massive grant of land in
0:20:02.676 --> 0:20:04.737
central Maine along the coast of Maine.
0:20:06.576 --> 0:20:08.376
And Lucy's father and mother
0:20:08.557 --> 0:20:11.077
owned three-fifths of this massive,
0:20:11.377 --> 0:20:12.897
it was 30 miles long and I
0:20:12.938 --> 0:20:15.798
think about six miles deep.
0:20:16.179 --> 0:20:19.720
And so now Thomas Flucker
0:20:20.461 --> 0:20:21.780
and his wife did develop
0:20:21.820 --> 0:20:23.942
this land a bit in the
0:20:24.201 --> 0:20:25.221
period right before the
0:20:25.261 --> 0:20:26.182
American Revolution,
0:20:26.221 --> 0:20:29.042
but it was basically undeveloped land.
0:20:29.482 --> 0:20:30.123
But nevertheless,
0:20:30.182 --> 0:20:31.223
they did have extensive
0:20:31.284 --> 0:20:32.903
properties in Boston as
0:20:32.983 --> 0:20:35.025
well as those land holdings.
0:20:36.063 --> 0:20:37.148
And during the war,
0:20:38.635 --> 0:20:39.797
as the Massachusetts
0:20:39.836 --> 0:20:41.538
legislature began to look
0:20:41.577 --> 0:20:43.057
for new ways to fund the war,
0:20:43.679 --> 0:20:44.818
they began to look toward
0:20:44.898 --> 0:20:46.039
loyalist properties.
0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:52.942
And Henry did use his position to lobby,
0:20:53.544 --> 0:20:54.104
for instance,
0:20:54.163 --> 0:20:54.904
the Massachusetts
0:20:54.964 --> 0:20:58.165
legislature to at least get
0:20:59.126 --> 0:21:01.367
Lucy's mother's property.
0:21:02.647 --> 0:21:07.471
And then Henry, he did through, you know,
0:21:08.536 --> 0:21:13.640
through negotiations with the legislature,
0:21:14.279 --> 0:21:16.161
he did eventually get all
0:21:16.181 --> 0:21:18.923
of the Waldorf patent for
0:21:18.962 --> 0:21:20.104
himself and for Lucy.
0:21:20.144 --> 0:21:21.305
And that's where they spent
0:21:21.365 --> 0:21:24.646
the final decade of Henry's life,
0:21:24.807 --> 0:21:28.589
in there developing those lands.
0:21:28.869 --> 0:21:30.951
And it might have, you know,
0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:32.840
It might have been better
0:21:32.861 --> 0:21:35.022
had Henry not gotten those lands.
0:21:35.482 --> 0:21:37.884
Because he did, toward the end of his life,
0:21:37.944 --> 0:21:40.548
he was financially badly overextended.
0:21:40.887 --> 0:21:43.170
But nevertheless, he was following
0:21:50.715 --> 0:21:51.836
a trajectory in his life
0:21:51.876 --> 0:21:53.257
that Washington had followed.
0:21:54.637 --> 0:21:56.818
Land speculation was the
0:21:56.838 --> 0:21:58.640
name of the game in the 18th century,
0:21:58.740 --> 0:22:02.221
and Henry pursued that greatly.
0:22:02.540 --> 0:22:04.721
But he did use his position
0:22:05.482 --> 0:22:08.183
to secure those lands.
0:22:08.564 --> 0:22:11.525
And if you look at his arguments,
0:22:12.204 --> 0:22:13.526
now those aren't contained in the book,
0:22:13.786 --> 0:22:14.405
But if you look at his
0:22:14.486 --> 0:22:15.946
arguments about the
0:22:15.987 --> 0:22:17.567
sacrifices that Lucy and he
0:22:17.606 --> 0:22:19.867
had made for the revolutionary cause,
0:22:20.347 --> 0:22:22.509
it makes sense that the
0:22:22.709 --> 0:22:25.450
legislature did accede to their wishes.
0:22:27.810 --> 0:22:28.171
And of course,
0:22:28.191 --> 0:22:29.290
her family had been worried
0:22:29.310 --> 0:22:30.771
that he was after her money
0:22:30.852 --> 0:22:32.092
when they were courting.
0:22:32.633 --> 0:22:32.952
Yes.
0:22:33.353 --> 0:22:35.073
During the Revolutionary War,
0:22:35.133 --> 0:22:35.993
there was a letter that
0:22:37.907 --> 0:22:39.809
Lucy wrote to Henry about
0:22:40.009 --> 0:22:43.291
them transferring one of
0:22:43.951 --> 0:22:45.874
the Flucker's houses to
0:22:46.294 --> 0:22:51.938
Henry's name because the
0:22:51.978 --> 0:22:53.439
Massachusetts legislature
0:22:53.499 --> 0:22:55.779
was making noise about
0:22:55.819 --> 0:22:57.060
seizing Loyola's property.
0:22:58.761 --> 0:23:00.784
And Lucy did point out that, you know,
0:23:00.805 --> 0:23:02.665
the family might not look
0:23:02.727 --> 0:23:03.748
so friendly upon that,
0:23:03.788 --> 0:23:06.871
but she did assure Henry that, you know,
0:23:06.990 --> 0:23:08.472
if they knew the full situation,
0:23:08.492 --> 0:23:10.515
they would agree with that.
0:23:12.356 --> 0:23:14.239
But and and, you know,
0:23:14.298 --> 0:23:16.760
Lucy and her family did
0:23:16.820 --> 0:23:18.844
reconnect after the war, but that was
0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:21.682
That was almost perfunctory.
0:23:21.701 --> 0:23:23.825
I think they did mind that
0:23:23.884 --> 0:23:25.507
Henry did get the property
0:23:25.547 --> 0:23:26.989
and did benefit from the property.
0:23:28.692 --> 0:23:30.294
The post-war contacts
0:23:30.493 --> 0:23:32.115
between Lucy and her family
0:23:32.155 --> 0:23:34.720
members were all about the properties.
0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:36.362
They wanted them back.
0:23:38.180 --> 0:23:38.660
And Henry,
0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:43.602
he did devote enormous energy to
0:23:44.041 --> 0:23:46.583
securing those properties for them,
0:23:47.242 --> 0:23:50.223
at least portions of them for the family.
0:23:50.683 --> 0:23:54.306
But the family never really
0:23:54.346 --> 0:23:55.605
reconnected because of
0:23:55.665 --> 0:23:57.047
their disputes over property,
0:23:57.106 --> 0:23:57.606
I would argue.
0:23:58.701 --> 0:24:00.564
Do the members of the family
0:24:00.624 --> 0:24:02.085
come back after the revolution?
0:24:02.105 --> 0:24:02.846
No, no, no.
0:24:02.905 --> 0:24:04.967
Lucy never sees her parents
0:24:05.847 --> 0:24:08.329
nor her siblings ever again.
0:24:09.471 --> 0:24:12.353
And so they did come into contact.
0:24:12.432 --> 0:24:17.896
They did meet Lucy's brother's wife,
0:24:18.377 --> 0:24:19.398
Lucy's sister-in-law.
0:24:19.939 --> 0:24:20.819
She did come back.
0:24:20.940 --> 0:24:21.700
And Henry,
0:24:23.561 --> 0:24:26.003
he made sure that their children got...
0:24:28.907 --> 0:24:30.067
you know, were educated.
0:24:30.968 --> 0:24:33.628
And so Henry did show
0:24:33.689 --> 0:24:34.888
affection toward at least
0:24:34.929 --> 0:24:35.910
that side of the family.
0:24:37.609 --> 0:24:39.730
How many children did Lucy and Henry have?
0:24:41.330 --> 0:24:41.891
They had 13.
0:24:42.971 --> 0:24:47.632
She experienced 13 pregnancies.
0:24:49.073 --> 0:24:51.272
And, you know, tragically,
0:24:51.373 --> 0:24:54.314
only three of them survived to adulthood.
0:24:55.556 --> 0:24:57.739
And so that was a reality
0:24:58.380 --> 0:24:59.181
that they experienced
0:24:59.201 --> 0:25:00.522
during the Revolutionary War.
0:25:01.042 --> 0:25:02.305
Two of their children did
0:25:02.345 --> 0:25:04.008
die during the Revolutionary War.
0:25:05.189 --> 0:25:07.352
And for one of those deaths,
0:25:07.612 --> 0:25:09.355
Henry was away on an operation.
0:25:10.375 --> 0:25:11.076
And they're very,
0:25:11.136 --> 0:25:12.318
very compelling letters
0:25:12.419 --> 0:25:14.883
when this was a three month old baby,
0:25:15.022 --> 0:25:16.885
Julia, when she died.
0:25:17.507 --> 0:25:20.111
Henry was so distraught that
0:25:20.592 --> 0:25:21.792
not only about the death of
0:25:21.813 --> 0:25:22.714
their little girl,
0:25:22.775 --> 0:25:23.875
but that he could not be
0:25:23.936 --> 0:25:25.818
there to comfort Lucy.
0:25:26.980 --> 0:25:28.020
And, you know,
0:25:28.121 --> 0:25:30.643
throughout the remainder of their lives,
0:25:30.982 --> 0:25:33.243
they just lost child after child.
0:25:33.344 --> 0:25:35.025
And so and I think that
0:25:35.265 --> 0:25:36.986
brought them closer together.
0:25:38.606 --> 0:25:39.188
And, you know,
0:25:39.208 --> 0:25:41.489
because they both felt so
0:25:41.788 --> 0:25:43.430
very deeply with the loss
0:25:43.470 --> 0:25:45.111
of each little baby.
0:25:45.131 --> 0:25:48.472
I can imagine what a sad life.
0:25:51.760 --> 0:25:53.482
inoculated for smallpox
0:25:53.583 --> 0:25:54.884
along with the baby,
0:25:55.243 --> 0:25:56.184
but apparently the baby had
0:25:56.224 --> 0:25:57.286
already contracted it.
0:25:58.307 --> 0:25:59.827
Yeah,
0:26:00.209 --> 0:26:04.311
that's a fascinating series of letters.
0:26:04.913 --> 0:26:06.713
This came in the spring of 1777.
0:26:06.794 --> 0:26:07.115
Lucy had
0:26:11.789 --> 0:26:14.893
Lucy was fearful of a smallpox inoculation,
0:26:15.093 --> 0:26:17.075
which makes sense to us.
0:26:19.737 --> 0:26:21.239
And Henry had suggested that
0:26:21.278 --> 0:26:22.299
she get one in 1776, but before the
0:26:26.501 --> 0:26:27.903
beginning of the New York campaign,
0:26:28.603 --> 0:26:29.903
people thought it was going to be,
0:26:30.083 --> 0:26:31.584
still thought and hoped it
0:26:31.624 --> 0:26:32.503
would be a short war.
0:26:32.584 --> 0:26:35.105
But by 1777,
0:26:35.105 --> 0:26:36.546
illusions of a short war had
0:26:36.885 --> 0:26:37.465
been shattered.
0:26:38.527 --> 0:26:41.048
And so Lucy decided to
0:26:41.228 --> 0:26:42.347
undergo a smallpox
0:26:42.407 --> 0:26:43.528
inoculation so that she
0:26:43.548 --> 0:26:46.170
could be with her husband more freely.
0:26:47.210 --> 0:26:47.690
Henry,
0:26:47.789 --> 0:26:51.471
I believe he caught smallpox as a
0:26:51.510 --> 0:26:53.751
young boy in Boston because
0:26:53.791 --> 0:26:58.512
he was never vulnerable to the disease.
0:26:58.613 --> 0:26:59.913
But Lucy was,
0:27:00.413 --> 0:27:02.034
and so she and her daughter
0:27:02.114 --> 0:27:03.474
had the inoculation.
0:27:04.654 --> 0:27:05.815
At first,
0:27:05.974 --> 0:27:07.415
everything looked like it was
0:27:07.695 --> 0:27:08.556
progressing well.
0:27:09.096 --> 0:27:10.135
Lucy was in a military
0:27:10.195 --> 0:27:13.116
hospital in Brookline, Massachusetts,
0:27:14.096 --> 0:27:14.758
and then
0:27:17.203 --> 0:27:21.184
After about a week or so, little Lucy,
0:27:21.244 --> 0:27:22.165
that was their daughter,
0:27:24.006 --> 0:27:25.567
showed the signs that she
0:27:25.646 --> 0:27:27.946
had gotten smallpox
0:27:28.047 --> 0:27:29.307
naturally several days
0:27:29.367 --> 0:27:31.847
before her inoculation.
0:27:31.887 --> 0:27:32.868
And she got a very,
0:27:32.929 --> 0:27:34.269
very severe case of it.
0:27:35.449 --> 0:27:38.069
And it looked as if she
0:27:38.109 --> 0:27:40.830
might die from that smallpox inoculation.
0:27:41.770 --> 0:27:44.211
And Lucy was devastated.
0:27:44.251 --> 0:27:45.551
She said, this poor little girl,
0:27:45.612 --> 0:27:50.374
she's death motionless for three days.
0:27:50.473 --> 0:27:52.255
Her body is covered with
0:27:52.275 --> 0:27:55.115
smallpox pustules.
0:27:56.096 --> 0:27:57.635
And fortunately,
0:27:58.696 --> 0:28:00.196
their little girl did survive.
0:28:00.297 --> 0:28:01.778
And she was one of the three
0:28:01.817 --> 0:28:03.837
children that did survive to adulthood.
0:28:04.439 --> 0:28:08.299
But nevertheless, it was such a stressful
0:28:09.351 --> 0:28:11.251
and painful experience for her.
0:28:14.513 --> 0:28:16.474
But that was one of Lucy's
0:28:16.654 --> 0:28:19.737
decisions to endure the war
0:28:20.877 --> 0:28:23.960
and to face what was coming
0:28:24.700 --> 0:28:25.740
because she realized that
0:28:25.840 --> 0:28:27.121
not only would it be a long war,
0:28:27.161 --> 0:28:28.342
but it would be a very,
0:28:28.382 --> 0:28:29.262
very different war.
0:28:29.323 --> 0:28:30.363
The future would look very,
0:28:30.403 --> 0:28:31.663
very different than the past.
0:28:32.144 --> 0:28:33.565
And that was a reality that
0:28:33.605 --> 0:28:34.965
they had to put up with.
0:28:35.625 --> 0:28:37.106
And so the smallpox
0:28:37.146 --> 0:28:38.428
inoculation was one of the
0:28:38.468 --> 0:28:40.169
signs that Lucy was coming
0:28:40.209 --> 0:28:43.230
to terms with the changed
0:28:43.391 --> 0:28:45.412
circumstances that the war brought about.
0:28:47.192 --> 0:28:48.874
We're talking with Phil Hamilton,
0:28:49.013 --> 0:28:50.375
author of The Revolutionary
0:28:50.434 --> 0:28:51.615
War Lives and Letters of
0:28:51.695 --> 0:28:53.176
Lucy and Henry Knox.
0:28:55.762 --> 0:28:57.824
biography of henry knox and
0:28:58.444 --> 0:29:00.244
lucy does play such a big
0:29:00.346 --> 0:29:03.686
role in his life that it's
0:29:04.288 --> 0:29:06.169
really there are well we
0:29:06.209 --> 0:29:07.588
can see martha washington
0:29:07.769 --> 0:29:09.410
abigail adams that this
0:29:09.589 --> 0:29:11.290
really is a partnership and
0:29:11.351 --> 0:29:13.492
she is someone who has very
0:29:13.532 --> 0:29:16.054
strong ideas as you said and um
0:29:18.527 --> 0:29:19.827
we talk a little bit more
0:29:19.867 --> 0:29:21.028
about then what their child
0:29:21.048 --> 0:29:21.990
their children then are
0:29:22.069 --> 0:29:23.090
educated and some of them
0:29:23.131 --> 0:29:25.132
are with her as she's alone
0:29:25.172 --> 0:29:26.773
and then some are in the
0:29:26.814 --> 0:29:28.414
camp or somewhere else
0:29:28.555 --> 0:29:29.996
what's their education like
0:29:30.256 --> 0:29:31.396
uh she seems to be better
0:29:31.897 --> 0:29:32.998
henry we know spent some
0:29:33.038 --> 0:29:34.539
time in boston latin school
0:29:34.619 --> 0:29:36.540
but didn't finish and lucy
0:29:37.102 --> 0:29:38.182
they're they are though
0:29:38.282 --> 0:29:40.163
both very bright people and
0:29:40.203 --> 0:29:41.224
then what about their children
0:29:41.909 --> 0:29:43.971
Their children were educated
0:29:44.050 --> 0:29:46.292
by tutors initially,
0:29:47.473 --> 0:29:52.719
and the female members of the family,
0:29:53.618 --> 0:29:55.961
they were always educated by tutors.
0:29:56.102 --> 0:29:58.584
I've never found any records
0:29:58.624 --> 0:30:01.066
where they were sent to a
0:30:02.682 --> 0:30:04.083
at school outside.
0:30:05.523 --> 0:30:09.547
But their only surviving son,
0:30:10.407 --> 0:30:14.030
who was Henry Jackson Knox,
0:30:14.911 --> 0:30:19.174
he was educated at a school at Boston,
0:30:19.234 --> 0:30:19.535
but then
0:30:21.296 --> 0:30:23.778
Henry Jackson Knox proved to be,
0:30:23.897 --> 0:30:25.077
Henry's son proved to be a
0:30:25.137 --> 0:30:26.838
very severe disappointment
0:30:27.539 --> 0:30:29.520
and never really pursued
0:30:29.580 --> 0:30:33.202
his educational opportunities at all.
0:30:34.284 --> 0:30:37.045
And he died pretty much a wastrel.
0:30:39.750 --> 0:30:41.512
although he did reform a bit
0:30:41.752 --> 0:30:45.195
after Henry Knox had passed away,
0:30:45.715 --> 0:30:46.836
but he was a severe
0:30:46.916 --> 0:30:49.558
disappointment to them.
0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:51.220
But none of his children
0:30:51.279 --> 0:30:52.661
seemed to have that same
0:30:52.721 --> 0:30:55.483
kind of drive for knowledge,
0:30:55.523 --> 0:30:56.785
that craving for knowledge
0:30:56.825 --> 0:31:00.327
that Henry had as a bookseller.
0:31:00.867 --> 0:31:03.170
Henry was basically an autodidact.
0:31:03.269 --> 0:31:06.311
He consumed books and he
0:31:07.333 --> 0:31:08.453
not only consume them but he
0:31:08.534 --> 0:31:10.174
remembered what he read and
0:31:10.555 --> 0:31:12.457
he applied what he he read
0:31:13.116 --> 0:31:14.958
um and and I think that
0:31:15.038 --> 0:31:16.660
that lucy was was the same
0:31:16.720 --> 0:31:18.260
so so education was a
0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:20.362
disappointment for for for
0:31:20.422 --> 0:31:22.242
their you know their their
0:31:22.282 --> 0:31:23.624
children's education proved
0:31:23.663 --> 0:31:25.005
to be a disappointment in
0:31:25.025 --> 0:31:26.746
in terms of how those
0:31:26.806 --> 0:31:29.428
children access those opportunities
0:31:30.744 --> 0:31:31.786
What about Henry's brother?
0:31:31.806 --> 0:31:33.886
What more do we know about him?
0:31:34.086 --> 0:31:37.448
Yeah, his brother, William Knox,
0:31:38.709 --> 0:31:41.490
he has a fascinating story of his own.
0:31:41.971 --> 0:31:45.491
But William Knox was Henry's
0:31:45.992 --> 0:31:47.113
only surviving brother.
0:31:47.252 --> 0:31:49.814
Henry came from a family of 10 boys,
0:31:51.694 --> 0:31:53.296
and death being an everyday
0:31:53.355 --> 0:31:54.876
reality in Henry Knox's life.
0:31:55.636 --> 0:31:57.798
only his brother and him survived.
0:31:59.160 --> 0:32:02.643
Two of his brothers were
0:32:02.942 --> 0:32:04.044
mariners and both of them
0:32:04.084 --> 0:32:06.766
were lost at sea.
0:32:07.685 --> 0:32:11.608
And so it was basically William and Henry,
0:32:11.808 --> 0:32:12.329
you know, kind of,
0:32:12.569 --> 0:32:14.872
and Lucy also confronting
0:32:14.892 --> 0:32:15.751
the world on their own
0:32:15.791 --> 0:32:17.053
during the Revolutionary War.
0:32:17.953 --> 0:32:18.134
But
0:32:18.844 --> 0:32:19.565
William Knox,
0:32:19.625 --> 0:32:21.067
he did show signs of mental
0:32:21.166 --> 0:32:25.590
illness early on in the war.
0:32:25.711 --> 0:32:28.173
He happened to meet Henry on
0:32:28.213 --> 0:32:29.994
the road to Ticonderoga.
0:32:31.057 --> 0:32:33.979
William Knox was coming back from New York,
0:32:34.059 --> 0:32:34.500
I believe,
0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:37.202
and he met Henry on the road
0:32:37.583 --> 0:32:38.723
and Henry kind of teased
0:32:38.784 --> 0:32:40.645
his brother and his brother
0:32:42.260 --> 0:32:43.741
was so embarrassed by
0:32:43.882 --> 0:32:45.742
Henry's teasing that he
0:32:45.782 --> 0:32:46.823
threatened to kill himself
0:32:47.502 --> 0:32:48.183
then and there with a
0:32:48.243 --> 0:32:50.204
dagger that he had and Knox
0:32:50.224 --> 0:32:51.825
wrote to Lucy that took
0:32:51.865 --> 0:32:54.546
considerable persuasion to stop that.
0:32:56.186 --> 0:32:57.928
But then he recovered and he did help
0:32:58.809 --> 0:33:01.290
And he accompanied Knox on
0:33:01.351 --> 0:33:02.932
the Ticonderoga expedition
0:33:02.971 --> 0:33:05.653
and proved invaluable to Knox.
0:33:06.273 --> 0:33:07.034
But he would have these
0:33:07.114 --> 0:33:08.914
periodic mental breakdowns.
0:33:09.295 --> 0:33:11.796
For instance, after the war in 1785,
0:33:14.051 --> 0:33:15.553
He had another mental
0:33:15.593 --> 0:33:17.192
breakdown and he thought
0:33:17.292 --> 0:33:19.973
that he and one of Henry
0:33:20.054 --> 0:33:22.976
Lawrence's daughters were
0:33:23.155 --> 0:33:25.797
engaged to one another.
0:33:26.376 --> 0:33:29.278
And he showed up at Lawrence's household,
0:33:29.298 --> 0:33:30.137
because Lawrence happened
0:33:30.157 --> 0:33:31.659
to be in London at the time,
0:33:32.878 --> 0:33:35.160
and with a pistol saying that, you know,
0:33:35.339 --> 0:33:36.240
he would burn down the
0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:39.342
house if she didn't marry him.
0:33:40.298 --> 0:33:41.538
And Knox,
0:33:42.598 --> 0:33:46.338
operating from Philadelphia at the time,
0:33:47.118 --> 0:33:48.160
or New York,
0:33:48.220 --> 0:33:51.319
but Knox had to contact
0:33:52.661 --> 0:33:54.421
mental health doctors in
0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:56.800
London and got his brother
0:33:57.701 --> 0:33:59.602
out of that situation.
0:34:00.682 --> 0:34:05.442
And so it was William Knox
0:34:06.143 --> 0:34:08.143
is a fascinating person himself.
0:34:10.297 --> 0:34:11.818
But the relationship between
0:34:11.858 --> 0:34:13.858
these two brothers is also
0:34:13.898 --> 0:34:16.840
a fascinating aspect of their lives.
0:34:17.300 --> 0:34:22.202
And it's one that is really
0:34:22.242 --> 0:34:24.523
not explored that to any detail.
0:34:25.364 --> 0:34:25.583
I mean,
0:34:25.603 --> 0:34:27.704
the relationship in general among
0:34:27.744 --> 0:34:29.786
historians between brothers, I think,
0:34:29.846 --> 0:34:33.668
is pretty much ignored by historians.
0:34:33.748 --> 0:34:35.329
But this is a fascinating
0:34:36.449 --> 0:34:37.650
relationship that they had
0:34:37.710 --> 0:34:38.309
with one another.
0:34:38.860 --> 0:34:40.420
And Henry was always very
0:34:40.862 --> 0:34:41.621
tolerant and very
0:34:41.681 --> 0:34:42.802
understanding of his
0:34:42.882 --> 0:34:45.105
brother in spite of the
0:34:45.144 --> 0:34:47.728
embarrassments that he caused Henry.
0:34:48.969 --> 0:34:50.670
But that love that they
0:34:51.371 --> 0:34:53.331
developed as young boys
0:34:53.431 --> 0:34:58.016
kind of thrown onto the
0:34:58.076 --> 0:35:00.797
fates when the father abandoned them,
0:35:01.559 --> 0:35:02.659
I believe that that just
0:35:02.719 --> 0:35:04.521
fostered a very deep,
0:35:04.541 --> 0:35:05.922
deep closeness between them.
0:35:07.311 --> 0:35:07.692
It really does.
0:35:07.731 --> 0:35:09.193
We're talking with Phil Hamilton,
0:35:09.213 --> 0:35:11.695
author of The Revolutionary
0:35:11.755 --> 0:35:12.876
War Lives and Letters of
0:35:12.956 --> 0:35:14.277
Lucy and Henry Knox.
0:35:14.297 --> 0:35:16.438
And we can see, as you've been talking,
0:35:16.617 --> 0:35:18.059
why this story is so
0:35:18.119 --> 0:35:20.780
compelling for undergraduates who then,
0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:21.420
because these are
0:35:21.460 --> 0:35:22.621
three-dimensional people
0:35:22.762 --> 0:35:24.302
who are dealing with, yeah,
0:35:24.322 --> 0:35:26.945
the Revolutionary War, but then also many
0:35:32.601 --> 0:35:34.623
They're not plaster saints,
0:35:34.702 --> 0:35:36.445
that Henry and Lucy are
0:35:37.045 --> 0:35:38.646
real people doing things
0:35:38.686 --> 0:35:41.028
and making really important choices.
0:35:41.730 --> 0:35:41.989
Right.
0:35:42.050 --> 0:35:42.289
Yes,
0:35:42.690 --> 0:35:44.853
they have their virtues and they have
0:35:44.893 --> 0:35:46.755
their vices like we all do.
0:35:47.094 --> 0:35:48.195
That's right.
0:35:48.536 --> 0:35:49.958
And I think that makes them
0:35:50.057 --> 0:35:52.460
so relatable to 21st
0:35:52.519 --> 0:35:54.362
century people in general.
0:35:54.992 --> 0:35:55.972
But, you know,
0:35:55.992 --> 0:35:57.074
given their young ages
0:35:57.153 --> 0:35:58.434
during the Revolutionary War,
0:35:58.514 --> 0:36:00.693
I think that's what really appeals to,
0:36:00.713 --> 0:36:03.635
you know, college-age students.
0:36:04.034 --> 0:36:04.775
Yeah, yeah.
0:36:05.255 --> 0:36:05.356
Now,
0:36:05.376 --> 0:36:07.655
you've written about a Virginia family
0:36:07.856 --> 0:36:08.675
in the Revolution.
0:36:08.695 --> 0:36:10.056
I'm wondering what brought
0:36:10.097 --> 0:36:11.896
you to the story of Henry Knox?
0:36:12.936 --> 0:36:14.237
Yeah,
0:36:15.057 --> 0:36:17.778
that came through a relationship that I,
0:36:17.998 --> 0:36:19.059
a long-term relationship
0:36:19.079 --> 0:36:20.898
that I've had with Lewis Lehrman.
0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:22.440
Okay.
0:36:24.621 --> 0:36:27.563
I worked for Lou Lehrman
0:36:27.663 --> 0:36:31.083
prior to deciding to go
0:36:31.123 --> 0:36:32.465
back into history.
0:36:32.605 --> 0:36:34.125
It was soon after I
0:36:34.164 --> 0:36:35.206
graduated from college.
0:36:35.226 --> 0:36:36.826
I wasn't sure what I was going to do.
0:36:36.925 --> 0:36:39.447
So I got this job with Lou Lehrman,
0:36:39.487 --> 0:36:43.068
who was a New York City businessman.
0:36:43.407 --> 0:36:44.467
And I worked for him for a
0:36:44.547 --> 0:36:45.068
couple of years.
0:36:45.108 --> 0:36:47.509
Then I decided to go back into history.
0:36:49.750 --> 0:36:51.291
And Lou subsequently created
0:36:51.351 --> 0:36:52.190
the Gilder Lehrman
0:36:54.235 --> 0:36:54.775
Institute.
0:36:55.818 --> 0:36:57.322
And they also have the
0:36:57.362 --> 0:36:58.724
Gilder Lehrman Collection.
0:36:59.146 --> 0:37:00.528
And shortly after
0:37:02.976 --> 0:37:05.739
the collection obtained the Knox papers,
0:37:06.878 --> 0:37:08.239
Lou contacted me and said,
0:37:08.260 --> 0:37:09.420
why don't you come up to
0:37:09.440 --> 0:37:12.601
New York City and have a look?
0:37:12.742 --> 0:37:14.143
And I was just fascinated.
0:37:14.202 --> 0:37:16.204
I knew who Henry Knox was before,
0:37:16.963 --> 0:37:19.724
but Lou said that this
0:37:19.965 --> 0:37:21.186
archive has really never
0:37:21.246 --> 0:37:22.527
been fully tapped.
0:37:23.827 --> 0:37:28.431
and really mine for all that it contains,
0:37:28.512 --> 0:37:29.893
especially the Knox Papers.
0:37:31.114 --> 0:37:33.096
And the Knox Papers can be a
0:37:33.155 --> 0:37:34.876
challenge simply because
0:37:34.936 --> 0:37:37.719
Henry Knox's handwriting is
0:37:39.181 --> 0:37:39.880
pretty wretched.
0:37:40.181 --> 0:37:40.981
I mean, I have to admit.
0:37:41.161 --> 0:37:42.864
And so it has taken...
0:37:46.382 --> 0:37:47.043
know that's one of the
0:37:47.083 --> 0:37:48.503
reasons why this project is
0:37:48.684 --> 0:37:50.266
is stretched on for so long
0:37:50.346 --> 0:37:51.606
is because I'm having to
0:37:51.666 --> 0:37:53.547
decipher uh and some of my
0:37:53.608 --> 0:37:55.148
students have had to
0:37:55.208 --> 0:37:57.269
decipher uh his his
0:37:57.329 --> 0:37:59.512
handwriting and and and so
0:37:59.552 --> 0:38:00.693
it's it's kind of a slow
0:38:01.112 --> 0:38:03.373
slow process but but it's
0:38:03.434 --> 0:38:04.894
also taking a while to to
0:38:04.914 --> 0:38:06.315
get this biography out
0:38:06.335 --> 0:38:07.597
because henry knox did so
0:38:07.657 --> 0:38:08.938
much and he wrote so right
0:38:09.358 --> 0:38:10.938
yeah and just mastering his
0:38:11.039 --> 0:38:12.661
his his correspondence is
0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:14.262
is a bit of a challenge in
0:38:14.302 --> 0:38:15.782
and of itself but
0:38:16.762 --> 0:38:18.043
But I've loved this project
0:38:18.103 --> 0:38:19.105
every step of the way.
0:38:19.485 --> 0:38:22.246
I really find Knox to be a
0:38:22.306 --> 0:38:23.626
fascinating person.
0:38:24.306 --> 0:38:27.369
And he's really representative of this age,
0:38:29.010 --> 0:38:31.471
which, as we were discussing before,
0:38:31.570 --> 0:38:33.692
is like our ages in many respects.
0:38:33.751 --> 0:38:34.833
But it was also a very,
0:38:34.873 --> 0:38:37.353
very different age in many respects.
0:38:37.735 --> 0:38:40.635
And Knox embodies both
0:38:40.795 --> 0:38:44.038
aspects of life in the 18th
0:38:44.057 --> 0:38:45.099
century as well as the 21st century.
0:38:47.893 --> 0:38:49.753
We've been talking with Phil Hamilton,
0:38:49.793 --> 0:38:50.833
Professor of History at
0:38:50.894 --> 0:38:52.795
Christopher Newport University,
0:38:52.994 --> 0:38:54.835
author of The Revolutionary
0:38:54.896 --> 0:38:56.217
War Lives and Letters of
0:38:56.297 --> 0:38:57.956
Lucy and Henry Knox,
0:38:58.036 --> 0:38:59.617
as well as other books.
0:38:59.657 --> 0:39:00.418
And now we're looking
0:39:00.478 --> 0:39:02.778
forward to the Knox biography,
0:39:02.858 --> 0:39:04.019
which we're knocking on
0:39:04.079 --> 0:39:05.800
wood that it will be ready in time for,
0:39:07.240 --> 0:39:09.422
if not Dorchester Heights,
0:39:09.521 --> 0:39:13.402
then Yorktown or... Yorktown certainly,
0:39:13.422 --> 0:39:13.943
I hope so.
0:39:16.181 --> 0:39:17.483
And it's amazing that, you know,
0:39:17.704 --> 0:39:19.005
there weren't that many
0:39:19.427 --> 0:39:21.469
officers who were with the
0:39:21.590 --> 0:39:22.751
army throughout the war.
0:39:22.851 --> 0:39:24.956
And Knox and Nathaniel Green
0:39:25.016 --> 0:39:27.539
in Washington are there at
0:39:27.940 --> 0:39:29.182
the Siege of Boston and
0:39:29.222 --> 0:39:30.184
then with the British of
0:39:32.295 --> 0:39:34.396
horses in the Carolinas.
0:39:34.436 --> 0:39:34.976
But there's such an
0:39:35.036 --> 0:39:36.097
interesting story that he
0:39:36.177 --> 0:39:40.019
remains throughout the war.
0:39:40.079 --> 0:39:41.099
And what a great thing to
0:39:41.139 --> 0:39:42.440
have the letters and then
0:39:42.460 --> 0:39:44.442
to have you doing this book,
0:39:44.481 --> 0:39:45.302
bringing them to life.
0:39:45.862 --> 0:39:46.382
Yeah, yeah.
0:39:46.422 --> 0:39:48.403
He really was Washington's right-hand man,
0:39:48.423 --> 0:39:49.065
Knox was.
0:39:49.664 --> 0:39:50.425
uh throughout the war
0:39:50.505 --> 0:39:52.166
because he they he was
0:39:52.226 --> 0:39:54.228
always at Washington's side
0:39:54.949 --> 0:39:55.969
uh you know really from the
0:39:56.009 --> 0:39:57.630
siege of Boston to to you
0:39:57.931 --> 0:40:00.331
know the end of this to
0:40:00.371 --> 0:40:01.472
when the British evacuate
0:40:01.492 --> 0:40:03.153
New York right yeah yeah
0:40:03.434 --> 0:40:05.615
great so thank you and I
0:40:05.655 --> 0:40:07.097
want to thank you and I
0:40:07.137 --> 0:40:08.277
want to thank Jonathan Lane
0:40:08.318 --> 0:40:09.818
our producer and our
0:40:09.918 --> 0:40:11.159
listeners all around the
0:40:11.199 --> 0:40:12.800
country actually all around the world and
0:40:13.552 --> 0:40:15.094
If you are in one of these places,
0:40:15.134 --> 0:40:16.673
send Jonathan Lane an email,
0:40:16.733 --> 0:40:18.914
jlane at revolution250.org,
0:40:18.934 --> 0:40:19.976
and he'll send you some of
0:40:20.036 --> 0:40:21.755
our Revolution 250 gear.
0:40:21.815 --> 0:40:23.976
And so this week, folks in Woburn,
0:40:24.016 --> 0:40:27.097
Massachusetts, Sacramento, Long Beach,
0:40:27.378 --> 0:40:29.918
Detroit, New Orleans, Newport News.
0:40:29.958 --> 0:40:31.039
That might actually be you
0:40:31.079 --> 0:40:32.420
in Newport News tuning in.
0:40:32.500 --> 0:40:32.780
It is.
0:40:33.161 --> 0:40:34.521
That's where I am.
0:40:35.201 --> 0:40:36.141
New Smyrna Beach,
0:40:36.501 --> 0:40:38.762
San Miguel de Allende in Mexico,
0:40:39.262 --> 0:40:41.384
and Kailua Kona in Hawaii.
0:40:46.025 --> 0:40:47.550
out on the road to Boston.