Liberty Poles were central to the Revolution, as Patriots raised them to symbolize their resistance, and British soldiers tore them down. Americans in the 1790s revived the custom of Liberty Poles, in opposition to the policies of the Washington and Adams administrations. We talk with Shira Lurie, author of .The American Liberty Pole: Popular Politics and the Struggle for Democracy in the Early Republic, about these symbols of liberty and the contentious politics in the Revolution era.
Liberty Poles were central to the Revolution, as Patriots raised them to symbolize their resistance, and British soldiers tore them down. Americans in the 1790s revived the custom of Liberty Poles, in opposition to the policies of the Washington and Adams administrations. We talk with Shira Lurie, author of .The American Liberty Pole: Popular Politics and the Struggle for Democracy in the Early Republic, about these symbols of liberty and the contentious politics in the Revolution era.
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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
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I am Bob Allison.
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I chair the Rev 250 advisory group.
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We are a collaboration among
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about 70 groups in
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Massachusetts planning
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commemorations of the
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American Revolution.
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And our guest today is Shira Lurie.
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Shira Lurie is an assistant
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professor of history at St.
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Mary's University in Halifax,
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and she is the author of
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the American Liberty Poll,
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Popular Politics and the
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Struggle for Democracy in
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the Early Republic.
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Shira, thanks for joining us.
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Thanks so much for having me.
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So how did Liberty Polls become a thing,
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a symbol of protest in the
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early part of the American Revolution?
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What's interesting is they
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began as not at all a symbol of protest.
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So after the Stamp Act is repealed,
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when news reaches New York
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City of that decision,
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one of the ways they
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celebrate is by raising a Liberty Pole,
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which for those who don't
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know is kind of a giant flagpole almost.
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And so they raise it on the
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Common and the flag on that
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particular Liberty poll says George III,
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Pitt, and Liberty.
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So it's really a celebration
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of an empire of liberty, a king,
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a parliament.
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So it's not at all a protest
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symbol initially,
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but it becomes one because
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the redcoats that are
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stationed in New York City
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take offense for various
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reasons to this Liberty Pole.
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And a few months after it's raised,
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they go out at night and
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they cut it down.
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And it's really that action
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that transforms the Liberty
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Pole from this symbol of
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gratitude and celebration
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to the king and empire to
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one that really is a protest symbol,
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a symbol of colonial
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resistance against an oppressive regime.
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Yeah.
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Do we have any idea why they took offense?
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Well,
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I think there are a few reasons we
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can sort of puzzle out.
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One is the location of the
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Liberty Pole I don't think
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was an accident.
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It's, as I said, raised on the Common,
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and the Common was kind of
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a fraught space at this
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time in New York City.
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You have the British troops,
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their barracks are
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stationed sort of at one
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end of the Common, and then
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You have the Sons of
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Liberty's headquarters,
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which is a tavern stationed at the other.
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So it's already a bit of a
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tense atmosphere.
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The Liberty Pole goes up
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right in the middle.
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And as much as it is a
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symbol of gratitude and
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celebration and so on, as I said,
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It can also be read as
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colonists asserting their
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numerical strength in the city,
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asserting their rights to
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control public space and
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political expression.
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And so it could be
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understood that these redcoats were
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Unhappy with that assertion
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and maybe got tired of
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looking at the Liberty Poll
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all day and so decided to
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go out and tear it down.
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And then the Sons of Liberty
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put it back up.
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I mean,
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you have this constant back and forth.
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Exactly.
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So the Liberty Pole gets
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taken down almost immediately.
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Colonists re-raise it.
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There's a back and forth of
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raising and destroying that
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Liberty Pole in the common.
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Eventually,
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the colonists smarten up a bit
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and they reinforce their
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pole with iron around the base.
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And that does work for a time.
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The Redcoats try twice to
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blow up that Liberty Pole.
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They fail both times.
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Yes, it gets very intense.
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Eventually,
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they do succeed in toppling
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that Liberty Pole,
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and they leave it in pieces
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on the steps of the Sons of
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Liberty's headquarters.
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Wow.
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They are demonstrating.
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They know where this came from,
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and now we're bringing it back to it.
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Exactly.
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So there is a real
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escalation over time as
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these Liberty Poles are
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toppled and then re-raised.
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Then in January of 1770,
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there's this big episode in
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New York that turns into
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what's called the Battle of Golden Hill.
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That's right.
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Yeah,
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so after that Liberty Pole is left in
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pieces on the Sons of
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Liberty's headquarters steps,
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they meet at the stump of
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the Liberty Pole and they
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vow to find and punish those responsible.
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There is a real sense that a
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line has been crossed.
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Right.
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And at the same time,
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the Redcoats are busy going
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through the city and
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posting a broadside around
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that sort of pokes fun at
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the Sons of Liberty saying,
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why do these people think
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that their liberty is
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located in a piece of wood?
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And they blame the Sons of
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Liberty for the kind of
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chaos and anarchy that is
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sort of taking over the
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streets of New York City.
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And so some of the colonists
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basically confront some of
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the Redcoats as they are
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posting this broadside.
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And they get into a little
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tussle and the conflict
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moves to the mayor's home.
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And then, yeah, as you say,
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we get to the Battle of Golden Hill,
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which is basically the
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Redcoats and the colonists
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finally coming to blows in
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a way that they hadn't really before.
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Not in a major way.
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And there fortunately are no casualties,
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or sorry, no fatalities on either side.
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But there are some injuries.
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And that, quote unquote,
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battle of Golden Hill
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precedes the Boston Massacre.
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So it is a real mark of
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escalation tensions in the
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colonies in general.
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It really is.
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I know the Boston newspapers
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have pieces about it in February of 1770.
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So in the lead up to the massacre.
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And I guess the question then is,
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how come we know so much
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about the Boston massacre,
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but so little about the
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Battle of Golden Hill?
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I mean,
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I'm thinking about in the popular memory.
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Yeah, of course.
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I mean,
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I think it does become overshadowed
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with the fatalities of the
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Boston Massacre and also what follows,
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right?
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In New York City,
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the Battle of Golden Hill
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is more or less the crescendo,
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like the peak of the tensions.
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And after that,
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even officials are not even
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wanting people to raise
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Liberty Polls anymore.
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The Sons of Liberty end up
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having to raise their
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replacement poll on private property.
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So so, yeah,
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things more or less follow a
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slight denouement in terms
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of that particular conflict,
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mainly driven by officials
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being alarmed at the
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potential violence and so on.
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Whereas, you know, in Boston,
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things things continue to up.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But you also mentioned how
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there are liberty polls
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being raised in other
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places in Farmington, Connecticut,
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Hanover, Massachusetts.
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Now, the Dedham, south of Boston,
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has a monument on the
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comment where their liberty poll was.
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So is this are these folks
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also doing it initially as a sign of, hey,
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we're all part of the
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empire or those symbols of
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protest when they're being raised?
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No,
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so those Liberty Polls do come a bit
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later and they follow after
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word of this conflict in
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New York City is spreading.
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And so those Liberty Polls
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that spread mainly
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throughout the Northeast
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are absolutely symbols of solidarity,
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but also
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as symbols of,
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we are part of this larger movement.
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This is us colonists,
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us patriots demonstrating
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that we will not be intimidated,
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that we will rise to defend
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our rights and so on.
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And when people raise them elsewhere,
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they say specifically,
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we kind of dare loyalists
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or we dare redcoats to tear these down.
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They will be met with the
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fury of the people.
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So it really is an assertion
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of this movement's strength and a kind of,
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yeah,
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it's nothing close to that first
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liberty poll anymore.
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Interesting, interesting.
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We're talking with Shira
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Lurie from the St.
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Mary's University,
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author of the American Liberty Poll,
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Popular Politics and the
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Struggle for Democracy in
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the Early Republic.
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I am reminded that this is
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the 250th anniversary of Taunton,
0:08:17.848 --> 0:08:18.749
the town of Taunton's
0:08:18.809 --> 0:08:20.870
Liberty and Union flag,
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and an important moment in this,
0:08:23.531 --> 0:08:23.932
as you say,
0:08:23.971 --> 0:08:25.713
this movement from we're part
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of an empire to we're
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asserting a separate
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identity or a separate
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belief and challenging the
0:08:32.648 --> 0:08:33.869
anyone to tear this down,
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which does happen in some places.
0:08:35.809 --> 0:08:37.350
I know there's a famous case
0:08:37.389 --> 0:08:38.630
in Barnstable and others
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where someone does dare to
0:08:39.730 --> 0:08:41.032
tear down the pole and they
0:08:41.072 --> 0:08:42.712
do meet with the fury of or
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someone meets with the fury of the mob.
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That's right.
0:08:45.874 --> 0:08:46.815
Yeah.
0:08:47.615 --> 0:08:49.596
And then after the
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revolution and after the Constitution,
0:08:52.638 --> 0:08:54.979
Liberty Poles come back as
0:08:55.278 --> 0:08:56.759
a really powerful symbol.
0:08:56.799 --> 0:08:58.259
And this is a big piece of
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your book is looking at
0:09:00.409 --> 0:09:01.931
how these become symbols in the 1790s.
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So can we talk a little bit
0:09:03.990 --> 0:09:05.812
about how that happened?
0:09:05.831 --> 0:09:07.032
Who starts raising Liberty
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Polls and why in the 1790s?
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Yeah, absolutely.
0:09:11.033 --> 0:09:12.673
So Liberty Polls, as you say,
0:09:12.734 --> 0:09:14.214
have a kind of resurgence.
0:09:14.914 --> 0:09:16.215
The first time when they are
0:09:16.754 --> 0:09:18.316
re-raised in large numbers
0:09:18.395 --> 0:09:21.956
is during the Whiskey Rebellion in 1794.
0:09:21.956 --> 0:09:23.537
And then there's about 40
0:09:23.537 --> 0:09:24.717
Liberty Polls or recorded
0:09:24.758 --> 0:09:25.717
Liberty Polls raised during
0:09:25.738 --> 0:09:26.437
the Whiskey Rebellion.
0:09:26.457 --> 0:09:28.058
And then the other sort of peak
0:09:28.519 --> 0:09:31.802
period is in 1798 and 1799
0:09:31.802 --> 0:09:33.003
in reaction to the Alien
0:09:33.023 --> 0:09:34.424
and Sedition Acts and the Direct Acts,
0:09:34.485 --> 0:09:36.206
and there's about 70-ish
0:09:36.546 --> 0:09:37.807
recorded Liberty Bulls
0:09:37.827 --> 0:09:39.649
periods during those periods as well.
0:09:39.688 --> 0:09:39.970
And so
0:09:41.086 --> 0:09:42.467
This is really, as you say,
0:09:42.488 --> 0:09:43.648
the heart of my book.
0:09:43.908 --> 0:09:44.889
And it's really talking
0:09:44.928 --> 0:09:47.190
about how protesters who
0:09:47.210 --> 0:09:49.130
then more and more identify
0:09:49.171 --> 0:09:50.111
with the Democratic
0:09:50.152 --> 0:09:52.173
Republicans are using
0:09:52.212 --> 0:09:53.832
Liberty Polls in a lot of
0:09:53.894 --> 0:09:57.634
ways to organize their resistance,
0:09:57.695 --> 0:09:59.735
to express their politics and so on,
0:09:59.796 --> 0:10:01.496
but also and crucially to
0:10:02.177 --> 0:10:03.498
paint the Washington and
0:10:03.597 --> 0:10:06.879
Adams administrations as the British,
0:10:07.139 --> 0:10:07.399
right?
0:10:07.519 --> 0:10:09.600
To paint them as tyrants and to claim...
0:10:11.514 --> 0:10:12.514
as their own identity,
0:10:12.835 --> 0:10:14.037
the legacy of the patriots.
0:10:14.376 --> 0:10:14.797
To say,
0:10:15.518 --> 0:10:17.038
we raised liberty polls during the
0:10:17.058 --> 0:10:17.879
American Revolution.
0:10:17.899 --> 0:10:19.081
We're raising them again now
0:10:19.562 --> 0:10:21.023
because we are being
0:10:21.062 --> 0:10:22.924
oppressed with tyrannical legislation,
0:10:22.945 --> 0:10:25.187
with oppressive taxes, and so on.
0:10:25.307 --> 0:10:27.109
And so when their critics...
0:10:27.693 --> 0:10:28.953
to more and more identify
0:10:28.994 --> 0:10:30.034
with the Federalist Party,
0:10:30.634 --> 0:10:32.634
start cutting down their Liberty Polls,
0:10:33.634 --> 0:10:35.615
they just kind of confirm
0:10:35.635 --> 0:10:38.155
the Federalist identity as redcoats.
0:10:39.376 --> 0:10:40.657
They're just like- But do
0:10:40.677 --> 0:10:41.897
the Federalists say, hey, you know,
0:10:41.937 --> 0:10:42.277
we're right,
0:10:42.336 --> 0:10:44.817
we are on the side of the oppressor now?
0:10:44.898 --> 0:10:47.398
I mean, how are they responding to this?
0:10:47.658 --> 0:10:47.878
Adam,
0:10:47.918 --> 0:10:49.119
I'm thinking with John Adams and
0:10:49.139 --> 0:10:49.999
George Washington,
0:10:50.019 --> 0:10:51.399
you can't find two people
0:10:51.798 --> 0:10:53.279
more closely associated
0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:54.679
with the ideas of the revolution.
0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:55.919
And now they're being
0:10:55.940 --> 0:10:57.660
painted as the oppressors.
0:10:58.301 --> 0:10:59.061
Yeah, exactly.
0:10:59.140 --> 0:11:01.520
So so, you know,
0:11:01.561 --> 0:11:03.022
the those on the poll
0:11:03.081 --> 0:11:04.101
raising side are quick to
0:11:04.142 --> 0:11:05.581
point out the hypocrisy.
0:11:06.062 --> 0:11:06.201
Right.
0:11:06.221 --> 0:11:07.522
But those on the the
0:11:07.601 --> 0:11:09.462
federalist side at the top,
0:11:09.482 --> 0:11:10.822
but also at the grassroots
0:11:10.842 --> 0:11:13.403
level are saying you've got
0:11:13.423 --> 0:11:14.303
this all wrong.
0:11:14.364 --> 0:11:15.563
You Republicans who think
0:11:15.644 --> 0:11:17.563
that you should be using
0:11:17.964 --> 0:11:19.404
colonial methods of
0:11:19.465 --> 0:11:21.044
politics in a republic.
0:11:22.403 --> 0:11:23.783
It doesn't make any sense, right?
0:11:24.303 --> 0:11:24.563
Sure,
0:11:24.663 --> 0:11:26.065
we'll raise Liberty Polls and have a
0:11:26.105 --> 0:11:27.306
revolution when we have no
0:11:27.385 --> 0:11:28.307
voice in government.
0:11:28.886 --> 0:11:29.746
But the whole point of the
0:11:29.787 --> 0:11:31.148
revolution was now we have
0:11:31.187 --> 0:11:32.288
representative government, right?
0:11:32.328 --> 0:11:33.690
We rule ourselves.
0:11:34.269 --> 0:11:36.491
So to resist legislation and
0:11:36.552 --> 0:11:37.631
resist an administration
0:11:37.672 --> 0:11:38.633
that represents the will of
0:11:38.673 --> 0:11:40.453
the majority is actually
0:11:40.854 --> 0:11:41.794
you are the ones who are
0:11:41.835 --> 0:11:43.956
betraying the revolution, right?
0:11:43.995 --> 0:11:45.836
The people who are toppling Liberty Polls,
0:11:45.856 --> 0:11:46.998
who are supporting the government,
0:11:47.378 --> 0:11:48.658
They are the ones ensuring
0:11:49.119 --> 0:11:51.921
that the will of the majority will stand,
0:11:51.980 --> 0:11:53.662
that the republic will be
0:11:54.121 --> 0:11:57.264
defended and strengthened and so on.
0:11:57.323 --> 0:11:59.404
So it really is a contest
0:11:59.524 --> 0:12:01.725
about the revolution's
0:12:01.806 --> 0:12:03.447
legacy and what it means to
0:12:03.506 --> 0:12:04.927
be a citizen in a republic.
0:12:04.967 --> 0:12:06.688
What is the citizen's political role?
0:12:06.749 --> 0:12:10.110
Can you protest a government
0:12:10.130 --> 0:12:11.412
in which you've elected
0:12:11.611 --> 0:12:12.432
your own representatives?
0:12:12.591 --> 0:12:13.352
It was an open question.
0:12:14.163 --> 0:12:15.166
It really is an open question.
0:12:15.225 --> 0:12:16.467
Samuel Adams raises this
0:12:16.488 --> 0:12:17.970
during the time of Shays' Rebellion,
0:12:18.129 --> 0:12:19.753
and we see this with the
0:12:19.793 --> 0:12:20.553
Whiskey Rebellion.
0:12:21.134 --> 0:12:22.176
And at this time, too,
0:12:22.296 --> 0:12:23.097
there are real threats.
0:12:23.197 --> 0:12:23.337
Now,
0:12:23.378 --> 0:12:25.620
do the Federalists also see a tinge of
0:12:25.662 --> 0:12:27.124
the French Revolution in
0:12:27.144 --> 0:12:28.326
the raising of Liberty Polls?
0:12:29.010 --> 0:12:30.912
Yes, and they're terrified of that,
0:12:30.972 --> 0:12:33.094
in particular in that later
0:12:33.134 --> 0:12:35.436
period when it's pretty
0:12:35.475 --> 0:12:36.576
common for people to put
0:12:36.616 --> 0:12:37.778
liberty caps on top of
0:12:37.977 --> 0:12:38.857
their liberty poles.
0:12:39.078 --> 0:12:40.440
One liberty pole even flies
0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:41.399
the French flag.
0:12:41.419 --> 0:12:41.961
Oh, wow.
0:12:42.140 --> 0:12:45.322
And so this is a five-alarm
0:12:45.342 --> 0:12:46.624
fire for the Federalists.
0:12:46.724 --> 0:12:48.586
This is terrifying because
0:12:48.605 --> 0:12:51.288
they look to the French Revolution,
0:12:51.388 --> 0:12:51.807
of course,
0:12:51.988 --> 0:12:53.549
as the example of a revolution
0:12:53.649 --> 0:12:54.890
gone too far, right?
0:12:54.931 --> 0:12:55.350
They're so...
0:12:57.586 --> 0:12:58.907
grateful and proud that
0:12:58.986 --> 0:13:00.006
their revolution stopped
0:13:00.126 --> 0:13:01.847
before it got to the
0:13:02.008 --> 0:13:03.067
violence and anarchy and
0:13:03.087 --> 0:13:04.749
chaos that they see in France.
0:13:05.168 --> 0:13:07.149
So when they see Republicans
0:13:07.490 --> 0:13:09.471
calling for liberty and equality,
0:13:09.510 --> 0:13:10.230
and when they see all these
0:13:10.272 --> 0:13:10.932
French symbols,
0:13:11.451 --> 0:13:12.572
they're very frightened
0:13:13.052 --> 0:13:14.893
that these Republicans are
0:13:14.952 --> 0:13:16.653
not protesting the
0:13:16.693 --> 0:13:17.774
government or protesting
0:13:17.815 --> 0:13:19.195
specific pieces of legislation.
0:13:19.775 --> 0:13:20.655
They are worried that they
0:13:20.676 --> 0:13:22.716
are trying to overthrow the government.
0:13:22.736 --> 0:13:24.216
They're trying to start a
0:13:24.297 --> 0:13:25.317
violent revolution.
0:13:26.369 --> 0:13:27.769
Or they are going to
0:13:27.830 --> 0:13:29.350
facilitate a French invasion.
0:13:30.192 --> 0:13:30.412
Right.
0:13:30.692 --> 0:13:30.871
Right.
0:13:31.633 --> 0:13:32.653
And it's not just this
0:13:32.734 --> 0:13:33.894
particular government,
0:13:33.933 --> 0:13:35.254
but it's any kind of government.
0:13:35.294 --> 0:13:37.096
They see these liberty polls
0:13:37.197 --> 0:13:37.876
as threatening,
0:13:37.956 --> 0:13:38.998
that they want the kind of
0:13:39.097 --> 0:13:40.058
anarchy that they see
0:13:40.099 --> 0:13:41.419
happening in France.
0:13:42.019 --> 0:13:42.460
Exactly.
0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:43.301
Yeah.
0:13:43.341 --> 0:13:44.381
The sort of the key to
0:13:44.442 --> 0:13:45.802
understanding the first
0:13:45.863 --> 0:13:47.264
party system is really about that.
0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.100
balance between tyranny and anarchy,
0:13:50.221 --> 0:13:50.421
right?
0:13:50.441 --> 0:13:51.240
So the classic way to
0:13:51.301 --> 0:13:52.581
understand it is that the
0:13:52.621 --> 0:13:53.481
Federalists are worried
0:13:53.501 --> 0:13:54.903
about anarchy and the
0:13:54.923 --> 0:13:56.682
Republicans are worried about tyranny.
0:13:56.802 --> 0:13:57.783
And we definitely see that
0:13:57.823 --> 0:13:59.104
playing out at the Liberty poll.
0:14:00.684 --> 0:14:01.644
But you also make the point
0:14:01.684 --> 0:14:03.745
that the Federalists also
0:14:03.885 --> 0:14:05.527
are mobilizing the populace.
0:14:05.547 --> 0:14:07.067
And of course, they can point, as you said,
0:14:07.086 --> 0:14:08.607
to the fact that they've won elections,
0:14:09.028 --> 0:14:10.568
that this is an elected government.
0:14:10.589 --> 0:14:12.469
And so you don't like the
0:14:12.509 --> 0:14:13.669
way the election went.
0:14:13.809 --> 0:14:14.830
Are you then is it then
0:14:14.889 --> 0:14:16.130
legitimate to try to topple
0:14:17.437 --> 0:14:18.077
those who won.
0:14:19.099 --> 0:14:20.139
Yeah, exactly.
0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.801
So, I mean, the Republicans will say,
0:14:22.821 --> 0:14:24.562
you know,
0:14:24.602 --> 0:14:26.504
we are protesting particular
0:14:26.543 --> 0:14:27.644
pieces of legislation and
0:14:27.684 --> 0:14:28.544
how they'll be enforced in
0:14:28.585 --> 0:14:29.086
our communities.
0:14:29.125 --> 0:14:31.187
But the Federalists take that bigger view,
0:14:31.267 --> 0:14:32.027
as you say, and say,
0:14:32.067 --> 0:14:32.967
you can't undermine a
0:14:33.508 --> 0:14:35.409
government in which you
0:14:35.429 --> 0:14:36.470
elected if you're unhappy
0:14:36.509 --> 0:14:37.230
with what they're doing.
0:14:37.890 --> 0:14:38.110
Well,
0:14:38.230 --> 0:14:39.591
vote them out at the next election day,
0:14:39.653 --> 0:14:39.812
right?
0:14:39.873 --> 0:14:41.013
Now we have accountability
0:14:41.094 --> 0:14:42.354
built into our system.
0:14:42.374 --> 0:14:44.836
The problem in the colonial
0:14:44.855 --> 0:14:45.736
period was we didn't have
0:14:45.756 --> 0:14:46.576
that accountability.
0:14:47.077 --> 0:14:48.999
And so liberty polls, protests,
0:14:49.058 --> 0:14:49.919
popular organizing,
0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:51.860
all of that was legitimate back then.
0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:53.802
It's no longer legitimate.
0:14:53.923 --> 0:14:55.224
And so, you know,
0:14:55.244 --> 0:14:56.445
the Federalists are often...
0:14:57.477 --> 0:14:58.599
thought of as the kind of
0:14:58.899 --> 0:15:02.221
conservatives of the first party system.
0:15:02.501 --> 0:15:03.503
But what I argue is if you
0:15:03.523 --> 0:15:04.844
look at it in this light,
0:15:05.283 --> 0:15:05.884
the Federalists are
0:15:05.923 --> 0:15:06.884
actually proposing a new
0:15:06.924 --> 0:15:08.586
form of politics and they
0:15:08.647 --> 0:15:09.787
are upset with the
0:15:09.826 --> 0:15:12.149
Republicans for their conservatism,
0:15:12.208 --> 0:15:13.490
for their clinging to this
0:15:13.690 --> 0:15:15.312
old outdated form of
0:15:15.351 --> 0:15:17.092
politics that now they view
0:15:17.113 --> 0:15:19.254
as sort of illegitimate and
0:15:19.754 --> 0:15:21.336
one that is inapplicable to
0:15:21.355 --> 0:15:22.256
their current situation.
0:15:23.581 --> 0:15:24.481
That's interesting.
0:15:24.501 --> 0:15:25.363
We're talking with Shira
0:15:25.383 --> 0:15:26.844
Lurie from the St.
0:15:26.864 --> 0:15:27.725
Mary's University,
0:15:27.845 --> 0:15:29.686
author of the American Liberty Poll,
0:15:29.765 --> 0:15:31.047
Popular Politics and the
0:15:31.107 --> 0:15:33.028
Struggle for Democracy in
0:15:33.068 --> 0:15:34.289
the Early Republic.
0:15:34.890 --> 0:15:35.671
And the thing you do really
0:15:35.711 --> 0:15:36.852
well in this book is
0:15:36.932 --> 0:15:38.693
showing how both each side
0:15:39.153 --> 0:15:41.917
is mobilizing this popular opinion.
0:15:42.537 --> 0:15:42.918
Do you think,
0:15:43.437 --> 0:15:44.438
I don't want you to start
0:15:44.639 --> 0:15:45.960
naming names of historians
0:15:45.980 --> 0:15:47.100
who have gotten this wrong,
0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:47.881
but do you think sometimes
0:15:47.942 --> 0:15:49.263
we're misled by our
0:15:49.342 --> 0:15:51.044
sympathies for one side or the other?
0:15:52.303 --> 0:15:53.803
I think it's true that
0:15:54.144 --> 0:15:56.365
historians have tended to
0:15:56.445 --> 0:15:57.945
focus on Republican popular
0:15:57.985 --> 0:15:59.865
organizing and how this, you know,
0:16:00.066 --> 0:16:01.245
growing opposition movement
0:16:01.265 --> 0:16:02.846
then became a pretty strong
0:16:02.865 --> 0:16:03.946
political party.
0:16:04.886 --> 0:16:07.966
And the stories tend to be, you know,
0:16:08.006 --> 0:16:09.587
here's the whiskey rebellion or here's,
0:16:10.467 --> 0:16:10.687
you know,
0:16:10.727 --> 0:16:12.847
Republican Fourth of July
0:16:12.888 --> 0:16:13.828
celebrations and so on,
0:16:13.908 --> 0:16:15.229
all crucially important to
0:16:15.269 --> 0:16:16.249
understanding how this
0:16:16.269 --> 0:16:17.308
two-party system formed.
0:16:17.629 --> 0:16:20.309
But then the narrative shifts to,
0:16:20.330 --> 0:16:20.570
you know,
0:16:21.730 --> 0:16:22.972
John Adams, George Washington,
0:16:23.052 --> 0:16:23.833
Alexander Hamilton,
0:16:23.874 --> 0:16:24.774
how are they responding to
0:16:24.794 --> 0:16:25.996
this popular organizing?
0:16:26.037 --> 0:16:28.539
What we don't get most of the time
0:16:29.105 --> 0:16:29.365
is, well,
0:16:29.404 --> 0:16:30.404
how are the Federalists in these
0:16:30.445 --> 0:16:33.225
communities reacting, right?
0:16:33.285 --> 0:16:34.346
Those that have looked at it
0:16:34.405 --> 0:16:36.947
have tended to kind of
0:16:36.966 --> 0:16:37.726
looked at Federalist
0:16:37.767 --> 0:16:38.927
popular organizing again in
0:16:38.947 --> 0:16:41.567
terms of kind of celebration, 4th of July,
0:16:43.827 --> 0:16:45.149
some stuff about the Jay Treaty,
0:16:45.188 --> 0:16:46.948
but it tends to be that, you know,
0:16:46.989 --> 0:16:48.869
Republicans organize, they have an event,
0:16:49.168 --> 0:16:50.590
Federalists organize in response,
0:16:50.629 --> 0:16:51.289
they have an event.
0:16:52.078 --> 0:16:53.339
But when you look at the Liberty Poll,
0:16:53.860 --> 0:16:56.041
you see that there are violent,
0:16:56.260 --> 0:16:57.201
intimate clashes,
0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:58.662
people fighting in the streets,
0:16:59.282 --> 0:17:01.243
people boycotting each other's businesses,
0:17:02.423 --> 0:17:04.763
people voting certain ways
0:17:04.804 --> 0:17:05.824
in local elections.
0:17:05.864 --> 0:17:07.325
There's all kinds of local
0:17:08.294 --> 0:17:10.193
politics, local rivalries,
0:17:10.275 --> 0:17:11.355
local relationships that
0:17:11.394 --> 0:17:12.515
are playing out in that
0:17:12.575 --> 0:17:13.474
really intimate way.
0:17:13.515 --> 0:17:15.756
It's not just kind of a shouting match,
0:17:15.895 --> 0:17:16.076
right,
0:17:16.135 --> 0:17:17.996
between events and then how it
0:17:18.036 --> 0:17:19.876
plays out in the press.
0:17:20.196 --> 0:17:21.576
So when you look at the Liberty Poll,
0:17:22.257 --> 0:17:24.278
it is really about how both
0:17:24.357 --> 0:17:26.519
sides are mobilizing at a
0:17:26.558 --> 0:17:27.598
grassroots level and then
0:17:27.699 --> 0:17:30.259
how that ripples out to affect local,
0:17:30.338 --> 0:17:31.559
state, and national politics.
0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:31.740
Yeah.
0:17:33.270 --> 0:17:35.093
You have a lot, actually, on Lancaster,
0:17:35.133 --> 0:17:37.035
Pennsylvania, and Fry's Rebellion.
0:17:37.076 --> 0:17:38.356
I know the Whiskey Rebellion
0:17:38.376 --> 0:17:39.538
we know a whole lot about
0:17:40.378 --> 0:17:41.780
among popular historians.
0:17:42.221 --> 0:17:44.243
Fry's Rebellion is really less known,
0:17:44.304 --> 0:17:44.944
but it's really an
0:17:45.184 --> 0:17:46.846
extraordinary series of
0:17:46.906 --> 0:17:48.308
events in Pennsylvania.
0:17:48.348 --> 0:17:50.211
I wonder if we could talk a
0:17:50.250 --> 0:17:50.951
little bit about what's
0:17:50.991 --> 0:17:52.173
happening there and what
0:17:52.212 --> 0:17:53.414
the protests are all about.
0:17:54.251 --> 0:17:55.554
yeah absolutely paul douglas
0:17:55.574 --> 0:17:56.634
newman actually has a has a
0:17:56.694 --> 0:17:58.576
wonderful book um about
0:17:58.717 --> 0:18:00.318
about this incident but
0:18:00.338 --> 0:18:01.000
yeah so the whiskey
0:18:01.039 --> 0:18:01.621
rebellion you know of
0:18:01.661 --> 0:18:02.321
course is in western
0:18:02.362 --> 0:18:03.082
pennsylvania what's
0:18:03.123 --> 0:18:04.825
interesting about uh
0:18:04.884 --> 0:18:05.726
breezes rebellion is that
0:18:05.766 --> 0:18:06.246
it's in eastern
0:18:06.266 --> 0:18:08.489
pennsylvania um and you
0:18:08.509 --> 0:18:09.470
know I wasn't even saying
0:18:09.490 --> 0:18:13.355
it right among a a totally different
0:18:14.346 --> 0:18:17.747
population of Pennsylvanians.
0:18:19.607 --> 0:18:21.048
But yeah,
0:18:21.068 --> 0:18:22.650
so they are particularly upset
0:18:22.690 --> 0:18:23.529
about the direct tax,
0:18:23.569 --> 0:18:25.830
which is a new tax on houses, land,
0:18:25.851 --> 0:18:28.751
and enslaved people that
0:18:29.751 --> 0:18:31.232
seems very intrusive to them.
0:18:31.292 --> 0:18:33.094
It involves property
0:18:33.153 --> 0:18:34.034
assessors coming and
0:18:34.193 --> 0:18:35.194
counting the windows of
0:18:35.234 --> 0:18:36.996
people's houses and that type of thing.
0:18:37.036 --> 0:18:38.195
So it just really seems like
0:18:38.215 --> 0:18:41.136
a harbinger of some pretty
0:18:41.176 --> 0:18:42.258
oppressive taxation to come.
0:18:43.226 --> 0:18:44.686
And so they start to organize, um,
0:18:45.627 --> 0:18:45.847
you know,
0:18:45.907 --> 0:18:47.308
following similar patterns of
0:18:47.348 --> 0:18:47.930
the Whiskey Rebellion.
0:18:47.970 --> 0:18:48.851
They raise Liberty polls,
0:18:48.891 --> 0:18:50.531
they organize at the Liberty polls,
0:18:50.571 --> 0:18:51.071
they meet there,
0:18:51.112 --> 0:18:51.673
they pledge their
0:18:51.692 --> 0:18:52.913
noncompliance and so on.
0:18:53.815 --> 0:18:53.954
Um,
0:18:54.714 --> 0:18:57.617
but there's much less violence or
0:18:57.657 --> 0:18:58.357
threat of violence than
0:18:58.377 --> 0:18:59.659
there was in the Whiskey Rebellion.
0:18:59.679 --> 0:19:00.619
That's sort of what's
0:19:01.019 --> 0:19:02.020
remarkable about this event.
0:19:02.501 --> 0:19:04.163
And so some tax resistors
0:19:04.323 --> 0:19:05.804
are arrested and they're taken to, um,
0:19:07.184 --> 0:19:07.705
an inn,
0:19:07.786 --> 0:19:09.007
I believe it is in North Hampton
0:19:09.467 --> 0:19:11.328
and they're held there pending, you know,
0:19:11.348 --> 0:19:12.750
transportation for their trial.
0:19:13.676 --> 0:19:15.903
And John free is a local militia captain.
0:19:17.190 --> 0:19:19.531
leads, I think it's about 400 people.
0:19:19.592 --> 0:19:21.032
They go and they want to
0:19:21.173 --> 0:19:22.614
liberate those tax resistors.
0:19:22.673 --> 0:19:23.595
He goes into the inn.
0:19:23.994 --> 0:19:25.615
There's sort of a brief parlay, again,
0:19:25.655 --> 0:19:26.517
totally nonviolent.
0:19:27.436 --> 0:19:28.998
They're able to liberate
0:19:29.018 --> 0:19:29.878
those tax resistors.
0:19:29.939 --> 0:19:31.920
But John Adams and his
0:19:31.980 --> 0:19:32.921
administration declares
0:19:32.941 --> 0:19:35.682
this a rebellion and troops and so on.
0:19:36.063 --> 0:19:37.663
So in response or sort of
0:19:37.703 --> 0:19:38.384
during this event,
0:19:38.424 --> 0:19:40.365
there are scores of liberty
0:19:40.385 --> 0:19:41.987
polls being raised, as I said,
0:19:42.047 --> 0:19:42.807
and one of the
0:19:44.288 --> 0:19:45.368
case studies or stories I
0:19:45.388 --> 0:19:46.869
tell in the book is about
0:19:47.009 --> 0:19:48.670
this troop from Lancaster
0:19:48.690 --> 0:19:50.810
on their way to Northampton
0:19:50.871 --> 0:19:51.872
to assist in the putting
0:19:51.892 --> 0:19:53.392
down of this so-called rebellion,
0:19:54.672 --> 0:19:56.232
tear down Liberty Poles on their way,
0:19:56.272 --> 0:19:58.094
and they clash violently
0:19:59.153 --> 0:20:00.954
with local populations.
0:20:01.434 --> 0:20:03.555
And that incident has
0:20:03.796 --> 0:20:04.836
tremendous repercussions
0:20:04.895 --> 0:20:05.895
politically for the
0:20:05.996 --> 0:20:08.694
gubernatorial election in 1799.
0:20:08.694 --> 0:20:08.815
Yeah.
0:20:09.234 --> 0:20:10.194
So it's not like with the
0:20:10.214 --> 0:20:11.134
Whiskey Rebellion where you
0:20:11.154 --> 0:20:12.496
have federal troops mobilized.
0:20:12.516 --> 0:20:13.675
This is the local militia
0:20:13.715 --> 0:20:15.576
that's called out and
0:20:15.596 --> 0:20:16.355
they're the ones tearing
0:20:16.395 --> 0:20:17.336
down the Liberty Poles.
0:20:17.376 --> 0:20:18.717
And it is, again,
0:20:18.737 --> 0:20:21.436
a local episode which has this, you know,
0:20:21.477 --> 0:20:22.377
they are declared to be a
0:20:22.438 --> 0:20:24.917
rebellion and charged with
0:20:24.978 --> 0:20:25.758
treason and other.
0:20:26.038 --> 0:20:26.798
So you have.
0:20:27.739 --> 0:20:29.179
But it is really this local thing.
0:20:29.199 --> 0:20:30.199
And we know how people in a
0:20:30.239 --> 0:20:31.519
community often do have
0:20:32.338 --> 0:20:33.720
longstanding grudges
0:20:33.779 --> 0:20:34.779
against each other that
0:20:34.859 --> 0:20:35.619
come out at a moment.
0:20:36.795 --> 0:20:37.675
Right, exactly.
0:20:37.797 --> 0:20:40.000
And we see in the Whisker
0:20:40.019 --> 0:20:40.580
Rebellion as well,
0:20:40.601 --> 0:20:41.883
but also in Freezer's Rebellion, you know,
0:20:41.942 --> 0:20:43.384
some people are worried.
0:20:43.404 --> 0:20:43.945
They say, listen,
0:20:43.986 --> 0:20:44.787
I don't want to tear down
0:20:45.107 --> 0:20:45.848
this Liberty Pole.
0:20:46.170 --> 0:20:48.031
I'm afraid what these folks
0:20:48.071 --> 0:20:49.134
are going to do, you know,
0:20:49.153 --> 0:20:51.538
and it takes a troop from further away.
0:20:52.285 --> 0:20:54.967
um not you know uh within
0:20:54.987 --> 0:20:56.407
the community or nearby um
0:20:57.127 --> 0:20:58.348
to actually be the ones to
0:20:58.608 --> 0:21:00.931
to tear it down um but yes
0:21:01.010 --> 0:21:01.892
it is a kind of uh
0:21:03.152 --> 0:21:04.733
remarkable incident also
0:21:04.834 --> 0:21:06.255
for you know the anxieties
0:21:06.315 --> 0:21:08.215
it produces among people
0:21:08.256 --> 0:21:10.277
like thomas jefferson who
0:21:10.436 --> 0:21:12.239
are saying yeah you know
0:21:12.278 --> 0:21:14.059
these these people we are
0:21:14.897 --> 0:21:16.578
thrilled that they are
0:21:17.159 --> 0:21:18.098
opposing the federalists in
0:21:18.118 --> 0:21:18.740
their legislation,
0:21:18.759 --> 0:21:20.480
but we are terrified that
0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.320
they are going to do
0:21:22.401 --> 0:21:23.142
something that's going to
0:21:23.162 --> 0:21:24.321
paint the Republican Party
0:21:24.521 --> 0:21:25.722
as anarchists and all the
0:21:25.762 --> 0:21:26.722
things that we have been
0:21:27.042 --> 0:21:27.923
accused of being.
0:21:28.423 --> 0:21:30.805
So the Freezers' Rebellion, you know,
0:21:30.884 --> 0:21:32.865
as it is so close to the
0:21:32.865 --> 0:21:34.046
1800 election and so on,
0:21:34.527 --> 0:21:36.607
is really also a kind of
0:21:37.688 --> 0:21:40.790
test or a kind of inflection
0:21:40.830 --> 0:21:42.752
point for the Republican
0:21:42.853 --> 0:21:44.473
elites who are really
0:21:44.674 --> 0:21:45.434
nervous about how they're
0:21:45.454 --> 0:21:46.395
going to walk this line.
0:21:47.136 --> 0:21:47.616
Interesting.
0:21:48.178 --> 0:21:49.558
We're talking with Shira Lurie,
0:21:49.699 --> 0:21:51.260
author of the American Liberty Poll,
0:21:51.340 --> 0:21:52.582
Popular Politics and the
0:21:52.622 --> 0:21:54.022
Struggle for Democracy in
0:21:54.042 --> 0:21:55.104
the Early Republic.
0:21:55.884 --> 0:21:57.405
So what happens with Liberty
0:21:57.465 --> 0:21:59.468
Polls after your book
0:21:59.567 --> 0:22:01.069
focuses on this period?
0:22:01.150 --> 0:22:02.211
So it's unfair to say so.
0:22:03.496 --> 0:22:04.036
What happens?
0:22:04.076 --> 0:22:04.977
Are there liberty polls in
0:22:04.997 --> 0:22:06.657
the 19th century or once
0:22:06.718 --> 0:22:07.817
Jefferson is elected,
0:22:07.897 --> 0:22:09.078
is this the millennium and
0:22:09.098 --> 0:22:10.259
we no longer need to have
0:22:10.298 --> 0:22:12.641
this mass mobilization of opposition?
0:22:13.601 --> 0:22:16.422
Yeah, it's a really important question.
0:22:16.481 --> 0:22:18.103
And the sort of end of the
0:22:18.123 --> 0:22:19.584
book does go into the 19th century.
0:22:19.624 --> 0:22:20.644
But basically what happens
0:22:20.765 --> 0:22:23.526
is Thomas Jefferson is elected.
0:22:24.365 --> 0:22:26.971
Poll raisers are now feeling
0:22:27.032 --> 0:22:29.278
more trusting of the
0:22:29.317 --> 0:22:30.621
government because their
0:22:30.641 --> 0:22:31.723
guy is in and they start
0:22:31.763 --> 0:22:33.528
raising Liberty polls in celebration of
0:22:34.726 --> 0:22:36.047
you know, Jefferson's embargo.
0:22:36.126 --> 0:22:37.989
And, you know, once we get the war of 1812,
0:22:37.989 --> 0:22:38.769
people are raising Liberty
0:22:38.808 --> 0:22:40.089
polls just as kind of like
0:22:40.130 --> 0:22:41.171
a patriotic emblem.
0:22:41.672 --> 0:22:42.271
And there really is a
0:22:42.311 --> 0:22:43.452
transition once we get to
0:22:43.472 --> 0:22:44.594
the second party system
0:22:44.894 --> 0:22:46.595
where it's no longer about
0:22:47.276 --> 0:22:49.297
opposing specific pieces of legislation.
0:22:49.317 --> 0:22:51.519
It is absolutely about
0:22:51.759 --> 0:22:52.900
supporting one's candidates.
0:22:52.940 --> 0:22:54.040
So there is a kind of trust
0:22:54.121 --> 0:22:55.362
in institutional politics
0:22:55.461 --> 0:22:56.522
in the second party system
0:22:56.663 --> 0:22:57.864
that didn't really exist in
0:22:57.884 --> 0:22:58.805
the first party system.
0:22:59.184 --> 0:22:59.945
And it is about
0:23:00.546 --> 0:23:02.086
getting your people elected.
0:23:02.207 --> 0:23:04.229
So we see tons of Liberty polls,
0:23:04.949 --> 0:23:05.910
way more than we saw in the
0:23:05.970 --> 0:23:07.711
1790s in the antebellum era,
0:23:08.031 --> 0:23:09.031
but they are completely
0:23:09.071 --> 0:23:09.853
partisan and they are
0:23:09.893 --> 0:23:12.815
completely focused on electoral politics.
0:23:12.914 --> 0:23:13.915
They are raised, you know,
0:23:13.955 --> 0:23:14.836
Hickory polls are raised
0:23:14.856 --> 0:23:17.358
for Jackson for instance.
0:23:18.439 --> 0:23:20.060
Ash polls are raised for Henry Clay.
0:23:20.141 --> 0:23:21.382
And so Whigs and Democrats
0:23:21.741 --> 0:23:23.042
raising Liberty polls all
0:23:23.103 --> 0:23:24.983
over the U S it's no longer
0:23:25.023 --> 0:23:26.325
just a Northeastern phenomenon,
0:23:26.766 --> 0:23:27.185
but they are,
0:23:27.614 --> 0:23:29.055
like lawn signs, basically.
0:23:29.295 --> 0:23:30.494
They are about just
0:23:30.535 --> 0:23:31.996
supporting your candidate.
0:23:32.036 --> 0:23:35.237
And so in a kind of ironic twist,
0:23:35.257 --> 0:23:36.577
the Federalists fall from power.
0:23:36.617 --> 0:23:38.138
They're never again to be a
0:23:38.199 --> 0:23:39.778
force in American politics.
0:23:40.180 --> 0:23:42.701
And yet their idea of
0:23:42.780 --> 0:23:44.480
politics more or less won.
0:23:44.741 --> 0:23:46.561
It does become about elections.
0:23:46.642 --> 0:23:48.682
It does become about a trust
0:23:48.883 --> 0:23:50.324
in institutional politics
0:23:50.403 --> 0:23:51.364
and just getting the right
0:23:51.403 --> 0:23:52.105
people in power.
0:23:52.921 --> 0:23:55.403
And so protest in many ways
0:23:55.784 --> 0:23:57.184
becomes a little bit more
0:23:57.224 --> 0:23:59.307
of a fringe phenomenon, right?
0:23:59.346 --> 0:24:02.869
People who are protesting in
0:24:02.890 --> 0:24:03.990
the ways that those in the
0:24:04.050 --> 0:24:06.292
1790s were are seen as mobs,
0:24:06.333 --> 0:24:07.413
they're seen as immigrants,
0:24:07.453 --> 0:24:08.996
they're seen as criminals and so on.
0:24:09.556 --> 0:24:11.198
People like moral reformers
0:24:11.298 --> 0:24:12.858
who are seeking political
0:24:12.919 --> 0:24:14.820
change through petitions
0:24:15.101 --> 0:24:17.242
and elections and so on that are seen as
0:24:18.279 --> 0:24:20.161
resisting correctly, right?
0:24:20.181 --> 0:24:21.061
That they're trusting the
0:24:21.122 --> 0:24:22.782
institutional process.
0:24:22.803 --> 0:24:25.625
So it really is a remarkable
0:24:26.065 --> 0:24:27.685
transformation that happens
0:24:27.806 --> 0:24:29.106
with the second party system.
0:24:30.248 --> 0:24:30.867
And one, I think,
0:24:30.907 --> 0:24:32.269
that tells us a lot about
0:24:33.109 --> 0:24:34.130
the development of American
0:24:34.170 --> 0:24:35.750
political culture and its institutions.
0:24:36.652 --> 0:24:37.092
It really does.
0:24:37.112 --> 0:24:37.893
And it does get to that
0:24:37.913 --> 0:24:39.973
whole question of how does
0:24:40.054 --> 0:24:42.134
the American Revolution avoid, say,
0:24:42.155 --> 0:24:42.836
the fate of the French
0:24:42.895 --> 0:24:43.836
Revolution or others,
0:24:43.876 --> 0:24:44.817
because you do have this...
0:24:47.061 --> 0:24:48.643
creation of a political system,
0:24:48.682 --> 0:24:50.182
which allows for these big
0:24:50.282 --> 0:24:52.183
grievances to be fleshed
0:24:52.304 --> 0:24:53.684
out through a party system.
0:24:54.904 --> 0:24:55.825
Yes, absolutely.
0:24:55.865 --> 0:24:57.506
And this is what, you know,
0:24:57.605 --> 0:24:59.287
those who have a stake in
0:24:59.326 --> 0:25:00.727
the system will point to, right?
0:25:00.767 --> 0:25:01.627
That, you know,
0:25:01.887 --> 0:25:04.429
in the second party system now, sorry,
0:25:04.469 --> 0:25:06.809
political parties are seen as positive,
0:25:06.869 --> 0:25:06.990
right?
0:25:07.009 --> 0:25:08.130
Where they weren't in the first party.
0:25:08.390 --> 0:25:10.391
Yeah, everyone, Jefferson, Washington,
0:25:10.431 --> 0:25:11.132
all thought political
0:25:11.172 --> 0:25:12.051
parties were a bad thing.
0:25:12.515 --> 0:25:13.015
Exactly.
0:25:13.115 --> 0:25:14.736
But now people are sort of saying, okay,
0:25:15.076 --> 0:25:16.257
we have this institutional
0:25:16.297 --> 0:25:17.738
system where we understand
0:25:18.117 --> 0:25:19.137
that peaceful transfers of
0:25:19.178 --> 0:25:20.439
power between parties can
0:25:20.479 --> 0:25:21.579
happen and will happen.
0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:22.920
And that parties are
0:25:22.980 --> 0:25:24.421
actually a way to represent
0:25:24.881 --> 0:25:26.102
minority interests and keep
0:25:26.882 --> 0:25:27.982
politicians accountable and
0:25:28.262 --> 0:25:29.683
all these things that we
0:25:29.723 --> 0:25:30.805
now think of when we think
0:25:30.884 --> 0:25:32.404
of political parties.
0:25:32.424 --> 0:25:34.145
And that wasn't the case, obviously,
0:25:34.185 --> 0:25:34.405
in the 1790s.
0:25:34.445 --> 0:25:34.625
And so...
0:25:38.536 --> 0:25:40.957
You don't need liberty polls
0:25:41.017 --> 0:25:41.836
to some people, you know,
0:25:41.856 --> 0:25:42.817
you don't need them to be
0:25:43.317 --> 0:25:44.057
protest symbols.
0:25:44.077 --> 0:25:44.959
You need them to be
0:25:45.318 --> 0:25:46.719
galvanizing symbols to turn
0:25:46.798 --> 0:25:48.380
out people at elections.
0:25:49.220 --> 0:25:49.641
Interesting.
0:25:50.221 --> 0:25:51.121
We're talking with Shira
0:25:51.181 --> 0:25:52.602
Lurie from the St.
0:25:52.622 --> 0:25:54.702
Mary's University in Halifax,
0:25:54.803 --> 0:25:56.182
author of the American Liberty Poll.
0:25:56.222 --> 0:25:56.323
Now,
0:25:56.343 --> 0:25:58.824
you began actually interested in
0:25:58.904 --> 0:26:00.525
political philosophy.
0:26:00.805 --> 0:26:02.326
And, you know, do you think
0:26:02.980 --> 0:26:04.040
being something of an
0:26:04.201 --> 0:26:06.201
outsider to the American system,
0:26:06.261 --> 0:26:07.383
although an observer of it
0:26:07.423 --> 0:26:09.044
has allowed you to look at
0:26:09.084 --> 0:26:10.723
this in a more nuanced way
0:26:10.824 --> 0:26:12.025
or a more objective way
0:26:12.105 --> 0:26:15.747
than if you had grown up in
0:26:15.787 --> 0:26:16.727
it or have been part of it?
0:26:17.487 --> 0:26:19.048
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
0:26:19.067 --> 0:26:20.769
I think being Canadian and
0:26:20.848 --> 0:26:22.789
studying American history
0:26:22.809 --> 0:26:23.950
and American politics,
0:26:27.135 --> 0:26:29.257
it's sort of fascinating
0:26:29.277 --> 0:26:30.656
because Canadians are
0:26:30.696 --> 0:26:32.498
really not that interested
0:26:32.617 --> 0:26:33.538
in their history and they
0:26:33.578 --> 0:26:34.538
don't know it very well.
0:26:34.598 --> 0:26:35.479
And that's obviously not the
0:26:35.499 --> 0:26:36.460
case with Americans who
0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:37.319
know it very well.
0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:40.040
We both, yeah.
0:26:40.080 --> 0:26:42.382
Yes, well, I would say, yes,
0:26:42.521 --> 0:26:43.162
they think they know their
0:26:43.182 --> 0:26:44.462
history very well sometimes.
0:26:45.222 --> 0:26:45.542
And, you know,
0:26:45.583 --> 0:26:47.023
people have fought and died
0:26:47.124 --> 0:26:49.065
over interpretations of Americans.
0:26:49.384 --> 0:26:50.724
And that's sort of more or
0:26:50.766 --> 0:26:52.826
less a foreign concept in Canada.
0:26:52.865 --> 0:26:54.426
So I think maybe, you know,
0:26:54.527 --> 0:26:56.807
one thing granted is a kind of,
0:26:58.798 --> 0:27:01.059
curiosity about certain
0:27:01.339 --> 0:27:03.320
ideas or people that maybe
0:27:03.461 --> 0:27:04.342
wouldn't come naturally to
0:27:04.382 --> 0:27:06.182
me if I was born in America.
0:27:08.023 --> 0:27:11.425
But, you know, I say all the time,
0:27:11.465 --> 0:27:12.707
I find America frustrating,
0:27:12.727 --> 0:27:13.866
but I love Americans.
0:27:14.106 --> 0:27:15.788
So, you know,
0:27:15.887 --> 0:27:17.108
part of what this book is
0:27:17.148 --> 0:27:20.530
saying is liberty polls are not
0:27:21.363 --> 0:27:23.644
you know, a lost golden era.
0:27:23.663 --> 0:27:24.983
The 1790s was not a perfect
0:27:25.025 --> 0:27:26.065
political system that was
0:27:26.085 --> 0:27:27.566
then replaced by, you know,
0:27:27.625 --> 0:27:28.326
something terrible.
0:27:28.385 --> 0:27:30.666
It's sort of about the idea
0:27:30.747 --> 0:27:33.008
that there is nothing set
0:27:33.048 --> 0:27:34.067
in stone about the way
0:27:34.147 --> 0:27:36.229
American politics works, right?
0:27:36.509 --> 0:27:38.990
There's no divine revelation
0:27:39.009 --> 0:27:40.510
handed down in the Constitution.
0:27:40.530 --> 0:27:41.490
So when people fought then,
0:27:41.530 --> 0:27:42.451
they're fighting now about
0:27:42.491 --> 0:27:44.752
what American politics should look like.
0:27:45.192 --> 0:27:46.792
And so the ultimate point
0:27:46.813 --> 0:27:48.094
that I make in the book is that
0:27:48.972 --> 0:27:49.212
You know,
0:27:49.733 --> 0:27:52.115
we can make American politics fairer.
0:27:52.655 --> 0:27:53.757
We can make American
0:27:53.777 --> 0:27:55.397
politics look different
0:27:55.417 --> 0:27:56.519
than it does now because
0:27:57.400 --> 0:27:58.480
it's not set in stone.
0:27:58.580 --> 0:27:59.060
As I said,
0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:01.363
it was people made choices at
0:28:01.423 --> 0:28:02.624
certain times about how
0:28:02.644 --> 0:28:03.704
American politics would look.
0:28:04.486 --> 0:28:05.425
Other people made choices at
0:28:05.445 --> 0:28:05.967
different times.
0:28:06.787 --> 0:28:07.468
We can choose again.
0:28:07.788 --> 0:28:08.568
We can choose differently.
0:28:09.451 --> 0:28:10.270
Very well put.
0:28:10.290 --> 0:28:11.491
We're talking with Shira Lurie,
0:28:11.791 --> 0:28:13.613
author of the American Liberty Poll.
0:28:14.073 --> 0:28:14.993
And the epilogue of your
0:28:15.013 --> 0:28:16.035
book is called Forgetting
0:28:16.134 --> 0:28:17.255
While Remembering.
0:28:17.315 --> 0:28:18.375
And here we have this
0:28:18.435 --> 0:28:20.916
fascinating epic of the Liberty Polls,
0:28:21.017 --> 0:28:22.678
which have been pretty much forgotten.
0:28:22.698 --> 0:28:23.459
You know, Golden Hill,
0:28:23.519 --> 0:28:25.559
we don't remember the Boston Massacre.
0:28:25.619 --> 0:28:26.039
We do in
0:28:27.194 --> 0:28:27.976
Why do you suppose that is?
0:28:28.016 --> 0:28:29.857
How come these are, I mean,
0:28:30.118 --> 0:28:31.200
most historical events we
0:28:31.220 --> 0:28:34.345
know are forgotten, even by Americans.
0:28:34.746 --> 0:28:36.468
And so I wonder how it is
0:28:36.607 --> 0:28:39.432
that these are forgotten
0:28:39.452 --> 0:28:40.894
and what is remembered about them.
0:28:41.553 --> 0:28:42.815
Yeah, and I will just say,
0:28:43.474 --> 0:28:43.915
forgetting while
0:28:43.935 --> 0:28:46.097
remembering is Alfred Young's phrase,
0:28:46.157 --> 0:28:47.619
Al Young's phrase.
0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:51.104
So less people credit me with that genius.
0:28:51.144 --> 0:28:53.227
It is not mine.
0:28:53.487 --> 0:28:54.989
So what's interesting is, you know,
0:28:55.269 --> 0:28:56.650
the liberty polls that are
0:28:57.270 --> 0:28:58.432
more or less remembered, I mean,
0:28:58.452 --> 0:28:59.554
they're not remembered well,
0:28:59.634 --> 0:29:00.094
but there are...
0:29:00.775 --> 0:29:01.736
paintings to certain liberty
0:29:01.776 --> 0:29:02.476
polls in certain
0:29:02.796 --> 0:29:04.136
communities on the 4th of July,
0:29:04.176 --> 0:29:05.057
they'll raise liberty polls,
0:29:05.096 --> 0:29:05.657
that type of thing.
0:29:06.538 --> 0:29:07.858
All those liberty polls are
0:29:08.138 --> 0:29:09.720
those American Revolution liberty polls.
0:29:10.359 --> 0:29:12.340
The 1790s liberty polls are
0:29:12.401 --> 0:29:14.761
completely forgotten.
0:29:14.902 --> 0:29:16.823
There's no popular memory of
0:29:16.863 --> 0:29:17.542
them whatsoever.
0:29:17.563 --> 0:29:19.683
And I think that really does
0:29:19.944 --> 0:29:22.945
speak to this idea that
0:29:22.986 --> 0:29:24.646
Americans have that there is a kind of
0:29:26.148 --> 0:29:29.832
key to American politics and
0:29:29.852 --> 0:29:31.232
the success of America that
0:29:31.313 --> 0:29:33.574
lies in the founding era.
0:29:33.834 --> 0:29:35.836
If only we could understand
0:29:36.817 --> 0:29:38.738
truly deeply what the founders wanted,
0:29:38.778 --> 0:29:39.739
if only we could understand
0:29:39.798 --> 0:29:40.659
truly deeply what the
0:29:40.699 --> 0:29:41.559
revolution was about,
0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:42.740
so many things would be better.
0:29:43.461 --> 0:29:45.282
We just need to kind of unlock that truth.
0:29:46.022 --> 0:29:47.723
But what the 1790s liberty
0:29:47.763 --> 0:29:49.965
polls show is that there was no truth.
0:29:50.566 --> 0:29:51.227
People fought
0:29:52.116 --> 0:29:54.978
And again, at the local levels,
0:29:54.998 --> 0:29:56.117
but also at the national levels,
0:29:56.238 --> 0:29:58.397
about what this revolution had been about,
0:29:58.557 --> 0:30:00.858
how the republic was supposed to operate,
0:30:00.919 --> 0:30:02.159
what it meant to be a citizen,
0:30:02.219 --> 0:30:03.038
not a subject.
0:30:03.398 --> 0:30:04.719
All of these things, as we said,
0:30:04.759 --> 0:30:05.759
were open questions.
0:30:05.798 --> 0:30:06.599
They were debated.
0:30:06.980 --> 0:30:08.799
They informed how people voted.
0:30:08.839 --> 0:30:11.220
They informed which parties people joined.
0:30:11.420 --> 0:30:12.520
They informed, again,
0:30:12.580 --> 0:30:15.040
those local rivalries and relationships.
0:30:15.661 --> 0:30:17.942
And so were we to remember
0:30:17.961 --> 0:30:19.301
the 1790s Liberty Poll,
0:30:21.036 --> 0:30:23.758
we would have to reckon with
0:30:23.817 --> 0:30:26.378
that instability in the founding era.
0:30:26.439 --> 0:30:27.439
We would have to reckon with
0:30:27.479 --> 0:30:30.441
the idea that the Constitution,
0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:32.122
those founding documents,
0:30:32.521 --> 0:30:33.722
they didn't lay out answers
0:30:33.762 --> 0:30:35.804
to these questions and they
0:30:35.844 --> 0:30:37.365
haven't been solved.
0:30:37.984 --> 0:30:38.164
Right.
0:30:39.105 --> 0:30:39.726
It's actually very
0:30:39.806 --> 0:30:41.326
reassuring in this
0:30:41.586 --> 0:30:43.528
turbulent contested era we
0:30:43.587 --> 0:30:45.409
live in to understand that
0:30:46.141 --> 0:30:49.082
the era of Jefferson, Madison, Washington,
0:30:49.142 --> 0:30:52.084
Hamilton, Adams was just as contested,
0:30:52.304 --> 0:30:54.125
and in some cases even more so,
0:30:54.924 --> 0:30:56.346
and thinking that the fate
0:30:56.365 --> 0:30:58.326
of the world rests on what
0:30:58.626 --> 0:31:00.907
we're doing immediately,
0:31:01.748 --> 0:31:03.788
and that we don't have the answers,
0:31:03.848 --> 0:31:04.449
they're saying.
0:31:04.528 --> 0:31:04.749
I mean,
0:31:04.769 --> 0:31:06.890
they had answers in the 1780s for a
0:31:06.910 --> 0:31:08.530
certain set of political problems,
0:31:08.590 --> 0:31:11.451
and then hashing out in the next decade,
0:31:11.491 --> 0:31:12.553
in which we've been hashing
0:31:12.613 --> 0:31:13.833
out over the subsequent
0:31:13.894 --> 0:31:14.773
couple of centuries.
0:31:15.577 --> 0:31:16.780
Yeah, absolutely.
0:31:16.941 --> 0:31:17.383
As you say,
0:31:17.462 --> 0:31:19.548
the stakes felt enormous then
0:31:19.929 --> 0:31:21.712
like they do now, right?
0:31:21.874 --> 0:31:23.076
It does feel as though
0:31:24.634 --> 0:31:26.016
Almost the fate of the world
0:31:26.076 --> 0:31:28.678
rests on American politics sometimes.
0:31:28.758 --> 0:31:30.439
And it absolutely did to
0:31:30.739 --> 0:31:32.559
many players in the 1780s.
0:31:32.579 --> 0:31:35.401
But it was, as you said, right,
0:31:35.421 --> 0:31:36.501
they found solutions to
0:31:36.521 --> 0:31:37.501
particular problems.
0:31:38.323 --> 0:31:39.323
People making choices.
0:31:39.363 --> 0:31:40.943
That's how history happens, really, right?
0:31:41.964 --> 0:31:42.884
Most of the time, you know,
0:31:42.904 --> 0:31:44.266
sometimes there's a volcano or something.
0:31:44.306 --> 0:31:45.066
But most of the time,
0:31:45.105 --> 0:31:46.267
history happens with people
0:31:46.307 --> 0:31:47.827
making choices at certain times.
0:31:48.387 --> 0:31:49.307
And so they were responding
0:31:49.327 --> 0:31:49.969
to their own set of
0:31:49.989 --> 0:31:51.269
circumstances and certain
0:31:51.328 --> 0:31:52.288
people made choices and
0:31:52.308 --> 0:31:53.210
other people didn't get to
0:31:53.250 --> 0:31:54.009
make those choices.
0:31:55.130 --> 0:31:57.310
And so to look in that
0:31:57.330 --> 0:31:59.672
period for some kind of
0:32:00.592 --> 0:32:02.492
silver bullet for the
0:32:02.532 --> 0:32:03.932
current issues facing
0:32:03.972 --> 0:32:04.913
America and the world,
0:32:05.074 --> 0:32:07.094
I think is really a fool's errand,
0:32:07.173 --> 0:32:07.714
more or less.
0:32:07.795 --> 0:32:09.634
I think there are
0:32:11.135 --> 0:32:13.115
institutions that are
0:32:13.175 --> 0:32:14.616
crying out for reform in
0:32:14.656 --> 0:32:15.676
American politics.
0:32:15.757 --> 0:32:17.057
I think there are a lot of things
0:32:18.605 --> 0:32:20.306
a lot of areas in which
0:32:20.767 --> 0:32:21.686
modern Americans need to
0:32:21.728 --> 0:32:23.108
make their own choices.
0:32:23.969 --> 0:32:24.690
And, you know,
0:32:24.750 --> 0:32:26.911
history is a wonderful thing,
0:32:27.131 --> 0:32:28.132
but if it does anything,
0:32:28.291 --> 0:32:30.554
it reminds us that, you know,
0:32:30.614 --> 0:32:31.654
we made the world we live
0:32:31.714 --> 0:32:32.935
in and we can unmake it and
0:32:32.976 --> 0:32:34.356
make it differently if we want to.
0:32:35.336 --> 0:32:36.438
We have it in our power to
0:32:36.478 --> 0:32:37.818
begin the world over again,
0:32:37.959 --> 0:32:39.079
as one of these characters said.
0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:40.480
Were there any people you
0:32:40.520 --> 0:32:41.281
found particularly
0:32:41.342 --> 0:32:42.603
interesting in doing the
0:32:42.643 --> 0:32:43.983
study of Liberty Poles?
0:32:44.980 --> 0:32:45.259
Yes,
0:32:45.799 --> 0:32:48.401
I was really drawn to the local
0:32:48.721 --> 0:32:51.241
characters that I uncovered.
0:32:51.281 --> 0:32:53.883
And there's one chapter in
0:32:53.923 --> 0:32:55.063
the book that is about this
0:32:55.143 --> 0:32:57.044
kind of cohort of what I
0:32:57.084 --> 0:32:58.983
call itinerant Republican activists.
0:32:59.644 --> 0:33:01.085
So these are people who
0:33:01.105 --> 0:33:02.045
we've never heard of before,
0:33:02.065 --> 0:33:03.405
who there's almost no record of,
0:33:03.965 --> 0:33:05.246
who are traveling through
0:33:05.286 --> 0:33:06.467
the Northeast in particular,
0:33:06.807 --> 0:33:07.707
kind of stirring up
0:33:09.278 --> 0:33:10.339
anger at the Federalists,
0:33:10.420 --> 0:33:12.442
really specifically talking
0:33:12.502 --> 0:33:13.663
about economics,
0:33:13.683 --> 0:33:14.905
specifically talking about
0:33:15.527 --> 0:33:17.169
Federalists trying to hoard wealth,
0:33:17.528 --> 0:33:19.711
to turn regular people into peasants,
0:33:21.335 --> 0:33:22.175
to take all their land,
0:33:22.215 --> 0:33:23.356
to force them to be renters
0:33:23.376 --> 0:33:24.479
their whole lives and that type of thing.
0:33:25.153 --> 0:33:26.055
And they inspire liberty
0:33:26.075 --> 0:33:28.218
polls where they travel.
0:33:28.317 --> 0:33:32.123
And it's remarkable because
0:33:32.143 --> 0:33:34.045
you do find once you're looking for it,
0:33:34.085 --> 0:33:35.707
these glimpses of
0:33:36.288 --> 0:33:37.730
Federalist elites being
0:33:37.769 --> 0:33:39.731
concerned about this kind of
0:33:40.855 --> 0:33:42.096
grassroots activity that
0:33:42.116 --> 0:33:43.018
there are people kind of
0:33:43.097 --> 0:33:44.258
traveling around drumming
0:33:44.357 --> 0:33:46.279
up opposition and it's not
0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:49.201
something that again is well documented.
0:33:49.221 --> 0:33:51.423
You really have to kind of
0:33:51.462 --> 0:33:52.104
know what you're looking
0:33:52.144 --> 0:33:53.684
for and find glimpses where you can,
0:33:53.744 --> 0:33:55.205
but it's a really,
0:33:55.226 --> 0:33:57.647
I think fascinating story
0:33:57.688 --> 0:34:00.349
and a fascinating kind of window into
0:34:01.049 --> 0:34:02.451
what's happening in these in
0:34:02.471 --> 0:34:04.311
these local communities where, you know,
0:34:04.332 --> 0:34:05.452
a guy comes in preaching
0:34:05.532 --> 0:34:06.894
about the Federalists
0:34:06.993 --> 0:34:09.335
really telling some scary,
0:34:09.456 --> 0:34:11.577
scary stories about what's
0:34:11.597 --> 0:34:13.297
going to happen if this direct tax,
0:34:13.737 --> 0:34:13.978
you know,
0:34:14.057 --> 0:34:15.800
is just the first of many taxes
0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:17.079
to go through and so on.
0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:18.340
They leave.
0:34:18.862 --> 0:34:20.543
Liberty Pole goes up and, you know,
0:34:20.583 --> 0:34:22.543
chaos ensues in that in that community.
0:34:23.184 --> 0:34:25.186
Well, outside agitators.
0:34:25.726 --> 0:34:26.166
Exactly.
0:34:26.266 --> 0:34:27.027
Yeah, that's right.
0:34:27.744 --> 0:34:28.786
We've been talking with
0:34:28.826 --> 0:34:30.327
Shira Lurie from the St.
0:34:30.347 --> 0:34:32.108
Mary's University in Halifax,
0:34:32.809 --> 0:34:34.789
the author of the American Liberty Poll,
0:34:34.829 --> 0:34:36.070
Popular Politics and the
0:34:36.130 --> 0:34:37.532
Struggle for Democracy in
0:34:37.572 --> 0:34:38.393
the Early Republic.
0:34:38.413 --> 0:34:39.614
Thanks so much for joining us, Shira.
0:34:40.114 --> 0:34:40.735
Thanks so much.
0:34:40.755 --> 0:34:42.135
I've had a great time chatting with you.
0:34:42.815 --> 0:34:43.217
I have too.
0:34:44.215 --> 0:34:45.556
I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
0:34:45.596 --> 0:34:48.018
our producer, as well as our listeners.
0:34:48.039 --> 0:34:48.239
You know,
0:34:48.259 --> 0:34:50.661
we have folks tuning in from all
0:34:50.702 --> 0:34:51.342
around the world,
0:34:51.402 --> 0:34:52.684
and every week I thank some.
0:34:52.724 --> 0:34:53.744
And if you are in one of
0:34:53.784 --> 0:34:54.945
these places or you just
0:34:54.985 --> 0:34:55.987
want to connect with us,
0:34:56.407 --> 0:34:57.969
send Jonathan Lane an email,
0:34:57.989 --> 0:35:00.311
jlane at revolution250.org.
0:35:01.333 --> 0:35:01.932
And this week,
0:35:02.012 --> 0:35:03.474
particular thanks to our
0:35:03.534 --> 0:35:06.237
listeners in Lyon, France, and in Maynard,
0:35:06.277 --> 0:35:07.117
Massachusetts.
0:35:07.969 --> 0:35:10.755
Lodi and Lomita in California, Lakeland,
0:35:10.815 --> 0:35:12.416
Florida, Auburn, Virginia,
0:35:12.456 --> 0:35:14.300
and all places between and beyond.
0:35:14.380 --> 0:35:15.402
Thanks for joining us.
0:35:15.583 --> 0:35:17.646
And now we will be piped out
0:35:17.846 --> 0:35:18.768
on the road to Boston.