The American Revolution began along the waterfront. We talk with Christopher Magra, author of two books on different aspects of the maritime war: The Fisherman's Cause delves into the role of Massachusetts' cod fishery in the years before the war. and the transformation of fishing vessels into warships; and Poseidon's Curse e shows how Britain's impressment of sailors into the Royal Navy brought on resistance from American sailors and fishermen.
The American Revolution began along the waterfront. We talk with Christopher Magra, author of two books on different aspects of the maritime war: The Fisherman's Cause delves into the role of Massachusetts' cod fishery in the years before the war. and the transformation of fishing vessels into warships; and Poseidon's Curse e shows how Britain's impressment of sailors into the Royal Navy brought on resistance from American sailors and fishermen.
WEBVTT
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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
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I am Bob Allison.
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I am the chair of the Rev
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250 Advisory Committee.
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I also teach history at
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Suffolk University.
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And our guest today is
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Christopher P. Magreb,
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and he is a professor of
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history and also the
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director of the Center for
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the Study of Tennesseans in
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War at the University of
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Tennessee at Knoxville.
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Chris, thanks for joining us.
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Thank you, Bob.
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I'm happy to be here.
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I've listened to the podcast.
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You've had excellent
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speakers on some of my
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favorite historians, Hannah Farber,
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Colin Calloway, James Kirby Martin.
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Thank you.
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I'm honored to join them.
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And I also think your show
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plays an excellent public service.
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We need to get history to
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the masses more than ever before.
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And we need to convince
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people that humanities
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matter more than ever before.
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That's right.
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And I think your podcast does that.
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Well, thank you for saying that.
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And Chris is the author of
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two outstanding books on
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the maritime world of the 18th century.
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And again,
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you have that great tagline
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about the revolution began
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at the water's edge or
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something like that on the waterfront.
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And your first book, The Fisherman's Cause,
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talks about the
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role of cod fishermen,
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particularly in Marblehead.
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And I remember you gave a
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talk about this maybe 20
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years ago at the Colonial
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Society when you were
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working on it as your dissertation.
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And then your more recent
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book is Poseidon's Curse
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about British naval
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impressment in the Atlantic
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world and how that brought
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on the revolution to
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terrific looks at the
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maritime world of the 18th
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century and how this played
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into the revolution.
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Yeah, you know,
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I remember that meeting too, Bob,
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at the Colonial Society.
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A couple of really important
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events in my life happened
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at that meeting.
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Joyce Appleby sat down next to me.
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Wow.
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I'll never forget her being
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so well put together, so gracious.
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And she sat down next to me,
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a young grad student, said, hi,
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my name's Joyce.
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Wow.
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That small moment taught me
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a lot about how to be a historian.
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Yeah.
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And then Pauline Meyer was
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there and she asked a question from me.
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She said, well, Chris,
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you don't have evidence
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from fishermen themselves
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articulating their
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political consciousness.
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Do you think that's a problem?
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It was a really good question.
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It made me think deeper
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about what I was doing and
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why I was doing it.
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And in your books,
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you do start to get at
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their political
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consciousness in other ways.
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So were you able to unravel
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that or decipher that?
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Yeah.
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So no is the short answer.
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There isn't a large paper
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trail of fishermen who
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wrote political... Which
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Ashley Bowen had said more
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or that we find some trove of documents.
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Right, right.
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But...
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We do have evidence from
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others speaking on their
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behalf that thousands of
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maritime laborers working
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in the fisheries are
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turning out in defense of
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their rights to fish in the
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Atlantic Ocean.
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We do have John Adams
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talking about access to
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fishing waters in the
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Atlantic Ocean as a natural right.
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Right.
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and we have workers, in their own words,
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what they talk about is
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their working conditions, their wages,
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and they do refer to naval impressment,
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which we'll talk today,
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they do refer to that as slavery.
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Yeah, yeah, and again,
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I didn't want to let you tell the story,
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but in Poseidon's Curse, you say,
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you talk about 1746 being a
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critical year.
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Can you
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Tell us a little bit about why that is.
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Yeah,
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we can talk about the spirit of 76
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and 46.
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I hope that's a phrase that catches on.
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Yeah, that's good.
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And historians debate
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whether we can talk about
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the origins of the American Revolution,
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whether it's right to talk
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about the origins of the
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revolution before 75 or 76,
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whether that's anachronistic or not,
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whether we're kind of reading
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backward what we know is going to happen.
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And I want our listeners to
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think about three dates.
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I want them to think about 1708.
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I want them to think about 1746.
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And I want them to think about 1775.
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These three dates are connected.
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They are key dates for
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changes in British
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legislation pertaining to
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British naval impressment.
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And that is,
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for those listeners who don't
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know what naval impressment is,
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it's the forcible
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appropriation of free labor
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and private property,
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ships and maritime laborers.
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This goes on around the
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Atlantic world throughout
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the 1600s and 1700s.
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And in 1708,
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The British government
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passes a law banning naval
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impressment in the Americas.
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This is the entire Western hemisphere.
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It's an act that's meant to
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encourage economic
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development in this part of the world.
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And Americans celebrate it,
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whether that's in Jamaica, Barbados,
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whether it's in South
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Carolina or Massachusetts,
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Americans celebrate it.
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The British government is for us.
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They're with us.
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They recognize our concerns.
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We've expressed these
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concerns in the years leading up to 1708,
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and here they are.
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The British government is listening to us.
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The problem is that 1708 ban
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does not detail...
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any dates it's just seems to
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be in perpetuity but it
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doesn't specify that and
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that leaves the door open
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for folks after 1708 to say
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is this was this thing just
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a war measure and right and
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after the war is this
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really over and what's
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going to happen do they are
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they serious about this um
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and the british navy's
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continuing to press people and in 1746
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Caribbean sugar planters and
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sugar merchants,
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the most valuable commodity
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in all the Atlantic world, sugar.
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The sugar lobby is so
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powerful that they get
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Parliament to put into writing,
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this ban is in full force
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for the sugar islands in the Caribbean.
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And Parliament says nothing
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in 46 about North America.
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And so you have a British
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naval squadron stationed in Halifax,
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Nova Scotia.
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You have a British naval base in Jamaica.
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And the British Navy is
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patrolling the North
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American seaboard by
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traveling between these two naval bases.
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And when a naval squadron is
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leaving their base in Halifax,
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Nova Scotia,
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they have to have a certain
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number of men.
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Mm-hmm.
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It's not just a certain
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number of men to make these
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warships cross the wild,
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untamed Atlantic Ocean.
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they are ordered to have a
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certain number of men for
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any fighting circumstance.
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And since they know after 46,
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they can't get these men by
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force in the Caribbean,
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the only place for them
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really after 46 is North America.
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And the principal seaport
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still in 46 is Boston.
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It's at the start of the 18th century.
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It's the third largest
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seaport in the British Empire.
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Yeah.
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In London and Bristol.
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It's Boston.
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Wow.
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Boston is not just,
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it doesn't just have a lot of mariners.
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It has a lot of ships in a
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shipbuilding industry,
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a thriving shipbuilding industry,
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producing one third of all
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the ships in the British Empire.
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Wow.
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And so that's the obvious location.
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If you're a British Naval
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commander and you're,
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you have to have a certain
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number of men on your ship,
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you're going to stop in
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Boston and you're going to get those men.
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And this happens after 46, in 1747, uh,
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Commodore Knowles presses
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men in the port of Boston, which is,
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is kind of where you were,
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were asking and where you were leading.
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This causes a two-week riot
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known as the Knowles Riot.
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I argue that we can identify
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the beginnings of an
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independence movement as
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far back as the Knowles
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Riot in Boston in 1747.
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It's part of
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these changes in the empire
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that occur before the
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French and Indian War.
09:21.739 --> 09:22.779
Most people who teach the
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American Revolution, myself included,
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traditionally start with
09:27.701 --> 09:28.961
the French and Indian War,
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start with the proclamation line of 1763,
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and as a change between an
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old empire and a new empire
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and all these new lands
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that have to be regulated
09:39.264 --> 09:41.424
and taxed in new ways.
09:41.904 --> 09:43.745
But there are these older antecedents.
09:44.809 --> 09:47.191
That force us to look backward.
09:49.012 --> 09:50.493
And so we need to talk about that.
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We need to talk about why
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1747 and those riots kind
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of start a spirit of
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rebellion in North America,
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as I outline in my book.
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And then we need to talk
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about 1775 and that third
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piece of paramilitary
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legislation that changes
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the game when it comes to
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oppressing men in the Western Hemisphere.
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We're talking with Chris Magra,
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professor of history at the
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University of Tennessee in Knoxville.
10:19.942 --> 10:21.884
And we are talking about his book,
10:21.924 --> 10:23.085
Poseidon's Curse.
10:23.125 --> 10:25.466
Your two books really do interrelate.
10:25.547 --> 10:28.909
I can see how one develops from the other.
10:28.929 --> 10:33.012
And just not to say I do this right,
10:33.052 --> 10:34.553
but I typically do begin
10:34.593 --> 10:36.715
with the Knowles riot as such an event.
10:37.936 --> 10:39.117
You have Governor Shirley
10:39.257 --> 10:41.539
saying that the act of 1746
10:41.539 --> 10:43.140
produced this factious and
10:43.260 --> 10:45.282
mobbish spirit in Bostonians.
10:46.055 --> 10:47.456
And he also warns the Lords
10:47.496 --> 10:48.757
of Trade about the
10:48.877 --> 10:50.158
democratic nature of this
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constitution they have here.
10:51.660 --> 10:53.501
Everyone thinks he is just
10:53.541 --> 10:54.542
as good as everyone else
10:54.602 --> 10:55.302
and can run things.
10:55.302 --> 10:56.844
10 people, 10 men,
10:56.924 --> 10:57.925
even of the meanest sort,
10:57.945 --> 10:59.166
can call for a town meeting.
10:59.686 --> 11:01.087
You have that coming out of
11:01.147 --> 11:03.049
this extraordinary event.
11:03.069 --> 11:03.229
You know,
11:03.249 --> 11:05.070
they haul a ship or they haul a
11:05.371 --> 11:07.953
barge around town and set fire to it.
11:08.313 --> 11:10.335
They capture a couple of British officers.
11:10.855 --> 11:11.436
Yeah.
11:11.536 --> 11:12.236
And one of the things I'm
11:12.296 --> 11:13.637
most proud about in that
11:13.717 --> 11:15.239
book is that barge.
11:15.939 --> 11:18.021
Yeah, yeah.
11:18.201 --> 11:19.362
There's debate.
11:19.442 --> 11:21.004
So there have been some
11:21.104 --> 11:22.525
really good historians who
11:22.585 --> 11:24.227
have taken on the Knowles riot.
11:25.048 --> 11:31.834
And my old MA thesis advisor, Bill Pensack,
11:31.874 --> 11:33.636
was one of those historians
11:34.717 --> 11:35.758
who just did a
11:36.990 --> 11:37.170
I mean,
11:37.230 --> 11:39.792
Bill just loved colonial American
11:39.832 --> 11:40.112
history.
11:40.152 --> 11:41.914
He loved the American Revolution.
11:42.214 --> 11:44.455
And he was so passionate about Boston.
11:44.475 --> 11:45.476
It was one of his favorite
11:45.496 --> 11:47.357
cities that he really did
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his best to get at the
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nitty gritty of the Knowles riot.
11:51.260 --> 11:52.681
And it's documented.
11:52.781 --> 11:54.222
It's fairly well documented
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early event such as this.
11:57.784 --> 11:58.685
We have a lot of different
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voices and a lot of
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different perspectives weighing in.
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And one of the contentious issues is,
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did the mob want to destroy property?
12:11.644 --> 12:12.844
And this is contentious for
12:13.024 --> 12:17.805
our listeners for a lot of reasons.
12:18.325 --> 12:21.745
But one of the key
12:21.805 --> 12:24.866
characteristics of radical
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behavior in the 18th
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century is property destruction.
12:30.027 --> 12:30.247
Right.
12:30.787 --> 12:30.987
Right.
12:31.297 --> 12:33.378
And if you can show that a
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mob intended to do it and
12:36.499 --> 12:39.460
then they did it, it's an indication,
12:39.540 --> 12:42.060
as Alfred Young famously argued,
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that it's subversive.
12:44.781 --> 12:46.062
It's radical because it's
12:46.162 --> 12:47.742
subversive and it's private
12:47.762 --> 12:49.003
property destruction.
12:49.803 --> 12:51.864
This is an indication of that.
12:52.084 --> 12:55.325
And I've found evidence...
12:58.470 --> 12:59.571
I believe it's evidence that
12:59.611 --> 13:00.993
no one else has used.
13:01.013 --> 13:03.336
It comes from Benjamin Banks' diary.
13:03.376 --> 13:08.122
Benjamin Banks was a fisherman in Cape Cod,
13:09.443 --> 13:11.546
and he did business in Boston,
13:11.566 --> 13:14.310
and his papers are at the MHS.
13:16.255 --> 13:20.679
And he was there in Boston
13:20.919 --> 13:21.940
during the Moles riot.
13:22.201 --> 13:27.526
And just one line that the
13:27.566 --> 13:29.567
mob was after what they
13:29.607 --> 13:34.692
believed to be the tender, T-E-N-D-E-R,
13:35.533 --> 13:37.295
the small boat belonging to
13:37.335 --> 13:38.696
a British warship in the harbor.
13:39.697 --> 13:41.919
They believed this was a
13:43.320 --> 13:45.281
small boat that a press
13:45.321 --> 13:47.503
gang would use to travel
13:47.583 --> 13:48.864
from the warship in the
13:48.924 --> 13:50.186
harbor to the port.
13:50.906 --> 13:51.927
And the lieutenant and the
13:51.967 --> 13:53.328
press gang would go around
13:53.448 --> 13:55.710
and round up men by force.
13:56.371 --> 13:57.352
And they took that,
13:58.352 --> 13:59.594
what they believed to be a tender,
13:59.734 --> 14:00.494
and they burned it.
14:00.534 --> 14:01.735
They set it fire in front of
14:01.795 --> 14:02.876
the governor's mansion.
14:03.437 --> 14:03.577
Wow.
14:06.347 --> 14:10.208
As an overt political statement, I argue.
14:10.228 --> 14:11.388
It really seems to be.
14:12.329 --> 14:14.309
And you also have Samuel
14:14.409 --> 14:16.890
Adams then entering the
14:16.910 --> 14:18.570
fray in the wake of this,
14:18.730 --> 14:22.351
talking about liberty with these sailors.
14:22.631 --> 14:25.171
The sailors really were lowest rung,
14:25.231 --> 14:26.172
even if they were rung on
14:26.192 --> 14:27.192
the economic ladder.
14:27.252 --> 14:28.932
So you have these guys who
14:29.152 --> 14:32.073
are becoming the real leaders in this.
14:33.052 --> 14:34.113
Yes, that's right.
14:34.554 --> 14:38.177
You know, Sam Adams,
14:38.938 --> 14:40.199
a well-known firebrand of
14:40.239 --> 14:41.400
the American Revolution.
14:42.301 --> 14:43.242
And, you know,
14:43.282 --> 14:48.187
maybe he had a spirit of
14:48.247 --> 14:49.949
rebellion before anybody else.
14:50.309 --> 14:51.330
Yeah.
14:52.231 --> 14:54.614
Maybe he isn't a vanguard of
14:54.634 --> 14:55.715
the revolution here.
14:57.392 --> 14:58.592
But it's interesting to note
14:58.653 --> 15:00.233
that it's the nose riot
15:00.253 --> 15:03.714
that really activates Sam Adams,
15:04.135 --> 15:05.155
that really gets him
15:05.235 --> 15:07.056
publishing about natural
15:07.116 --> 15:08.356
rights and really gets him
15:08.476 --> 15:09.577
thinking about natural,
15:09.857 --> 15:12.638
articulating a natural rights philosophy.
15:13.498 --> 15:14.298
And he points to the
15:14.338 --> 15:16.019
maritime laborers and he
15:16.139 --> 15:17.740
points to British
15:17.800 --> 15:19.620
impressment as a form of tyranny.
15:21.517 --> 15:23.058
And he kind of lays this out
15:23.118 --> 15:25.140
for Bostonians in newspapers.
15:26.481 --> 15:27.362
What do you do in this
15:27.402 --> 15:29.303
situation where the deck is
15:29.383 --> 15:30.364
stacked against you,
15:31.065 --> 15:34.067
where a military force is
15:34.107 --> 15:36.389
being used against you by
15:36.429 --> 15:37.250
your own government?
15:37.310 --> 15:37.550
Right.
15:38.851 --> 15:39.932
In that situation,
15:40.913 --> 15:42.054
what rights do you have?
15:42.414 --> 15:42.554
Mm-hmm.
15:43.672 --> 15:43.972
Yeah,
15:44.372 --> 15:47.073
it's fascinating because well before
15:47.234 --> 15:49.575
anyone is thinking about separating,
15:49.595 --> 15:51.195
we're still part of an empire,
15:51.235 --> 15:52.656
but you have this question
15:52.716 --> 15:53.956
about a just government.
15:53.976 --> 15:55.417
You make the case that
15:55.477 --> 15:57.218
impressment is a threat in
15:57.298 --> 16:00.119
England and in all parts of
16:00.139 --> 16:00.999
the British Empire.
16:01.260 --> 16:02.760
And they see this as the
16:02.800 --> 16:03.801
antithesis of what John
16:03.841 --> 16:05.241
Locke was talking about.
16:05.261 --> 16:07.242
And so it is the fact then
16:07.282 --> 16:09.263
the Americans are excluded from this,
16:09.323 --> 16:11.124
or they're still allowed to impress here.
16:11.644 --> 16:13.908
that is part of saying the
16:13.968 --> 16:16.331
empire is unjust and plus
16:16.391 --> 16:17.914
this is enslaving us.
16:18.755 --> 16:19.015
Yeah,
16:19.095 --> 16:20.497
it's one of the things that attracted
16:20.537 --> 16:23.319
me to this second book
16:23.359 --> 16:25.181
project was that the
16:25.221 --> 16:26.282
British Navy is pressing
16:26.302 --> 16:27.903
men all over the Atlantic world.
16:29.204 --> 16:31.406
They're pressing men in
16:31.486 --> 16:32.447
England and in Europe.
16:33.088 --> 16:34.449
They're pressing men off the
16:34.489 --> 16:35.370
coast of Africa.
16:36.191 --> 16:37.031
They're pressing men in the
16:37.112 --> 16:39.013
Caribbean and in North America,
16:39.053 --> 16:40.354
but it only produces rebellion.
16:40.395 --> 16:41.435
It produces a lot of
16:42.556 --> 16:44.698
uh resentment around the
16:44.738 --> 16:46.380
atlantic world and and
16:46.500 --> 16:48.581
mariners petition the
16:48.621 --> 16:49.422
british government for
16:49.482 --> 16:51.924
redress merchants petition
16:51.984 --> 16:53.766
and lobby parliament to
16:53.806 --> 16:57.129
change laws um but it only
16:57.409 --> 16:59.551
causes rebellion not just
16:59.851 --> 17:01.212
not just resentment not
17:01.232 --> 17:02.573
just resistance but causes
17:02.693 --> 17:04.395
rebellion in north america so that
17:05.458 --> 17:06.258
That kind of intrigued me.
17:06.278 --> 17:07.259
I wanted to figure out why
17:07.299 --> 17:08.019
that was the case.
17:08.340 --> 17:08.720
That's true.
17:09.340 --> 17:11.381
Before we get to 1775, Chris,
17:11.421 --> 17:12.622
let's talk about something
17:12.642 --> 17:14.623
that happens in 1769,
17:14.623 --> 17:16.124
which is also tied into the present.
17:16.144 --> 17:16.744
That's the case of the.
17:16.784 --> 17:17.244
Yeah.
17:18.525 --> 17:18.845
Yeah.
17:19.826 --> 17:20.046
Yeah.
17:20.066 --> 17:20.926
This is, uh,
17:21.567 --> 17:22.967
this was my first publication.
17:22.987 --> 17:23.968
Uh,
17:24.048 --> 17:27.970
I was a grad student and doing research,
17:28.010 --> 17:28.831
doing research on
17:28.891 --> 17:31.212
Marblehead and commercial
17:31.272 --> 17:32.332
fishermen who fought in the
17:32.352 --> 17:33.193
revolutionary war.
17:34.978 --> 17:36.519
And I stumbled upon the
17:36.539 --> 17:38.500
story of the pit packet affair.
17:40.842 --> 17:41.962
And I published an article
17:42.002 --> 17:43.383
in the New England Quarterly on it.
17:44.204 --> 17:45.805
That was the very first thing I wrote.
17:45.845 --> 17:47.926
So it holds a special place in my heart.
17:48.306 --> 17:50.427
It's a wonderful, wonderful story.
17:50.447 --> 17:53.049
It has a lot of drama in it.
17:53.469 --> 17:57.372
It's a story about the pit packet affair.
17:58.619 --> 17:59.940
transatlantic commercial
18:00.000 --> 18:01.420
vessel that's sailing out
18:01.440 --> 18:03.141
of Marblehead over to Spain,
18:03.601 --> 18:05.422
taking dried salted cod,
18:05.642 --> 18:07.763
merchantable dried salted cod,
18:07.783 --> 18:10.264
the stuff that looks sellable,
18:10.484 --> 18:13.825
that you can make the most money off of,
18:14.245 --> 18:16.646
not refuse-grade dried salted cod,
18:16.686 --> 18:17.486
which is shipped to the
18:17.526 --> 18:19.367
slave plantations in the Caribbean.
18:20.308 --> 18:21.948
That is called the meat of
18:22.128 --> 18:23.829
all slaves there by
18:24.049 --> 18:25.270
plantation owners in
18:25.290 --> 18:26.350
Jamaica and Barbados.
18:28.254 --> 18:29.255
And this pit packet is
18:29.315 --> 18:32.796
returning from a trade voyage to Spain,
18:33.877 --> 18:34.957
and it's carrying a load of
18:35.057 --> 18:38.379
salt meant for the fisheries.
18:38.399 --> 18:40.720
And it's met off the coast
18:40.980 --> 18:43.361
of Massachusetts by HMS Rose,
18:44.962 --> 18:46.963
and it's boarded by a
18:48.044 --> 18:51.966
lieutenant and a press gang,
18:51.986 --> 18:54.487
and some Irish mariners on board
18:55.515 --> 18:56.556
locked themselves in the
18:56.616 --> 18:58.638
hold and refused to come
18:58.738 --> 19:01.140
out on deck and there's
19:01.260 --> 19:02.902
there's lots of drama in
19:02.942 --> 19:06.084
this in this event um the
19:06.245 --> 19:08.226
the british lieutenant
19:08.727 --> 19:10.348
famously takes some snuff
19:11.629 --> 19:12.910
he takes a little bit of it
19:13.131 --> 19:14.652
and then he spreads it on
19:14.672 --> 19:16.774
the on the deck and he and he
19:18.257 --> 19:22.302
dares the Irish mariners to
19:22.342 --> 19:23.323
cross the line.
19:23.884 --> 19:25.706
One of them grabs a harpoon, does,
19:25.906 --> 19:27.748
and throws it and severs
19:27.768 --> 19:29.531
the jugular vein in the
19:29.591 --> 19:31.092
neck of this lieutenant.
19:31.513 --> 19:33.976
And he's carried bleeding up
19:33.996 --> 19:34.777
to the main deck.
19:36.008 --> 19:37.609
where he bleeds out and he dies.
19:37.770 --> 19:39.351
So then you have a case
19:39.611 --> 19:42.253
where American mariners,
19:42.493 --> 19:44.455
they're Irish American mariners,
19:45.295 --> 19:46.676
have just now killed an
19:47.477 --> 19:50.580
officer in the British Navy in 1769.
19:50.580 --> 19:52.741
And it's tried in the Vice
19:52.881 --> 19:53.722
Admiralty Courts.
19:53.782 --> 19:54.923
Those of us who teach the
19:54.963 --> 19:55.784
American Revolution,
19:55.804 --> 19:57.885
we know all about Vice Admiralty Courts.
19:58.326 --> 19:59.607
These are established to
20:00.627 --> 20:03.128
After 1763 in North America,
20:03.468 --> 20:04.608
as a way to get more
20:04.668 --> 20:05.969
customs revenue that we've
20:05.989 --> 20:06.889
been evading through
20:06.929 --> 20:08.389
smuggling for decades,
20:08.429 --> 20:09.690
if not over a century,
20:10.710 --> 20:12.370
perfected the art of smuggling.
20:13.451 --> 20:16.691
And it's a way to take the
20:16.751 --> 20:18.892
law out of juries,
20:19.892 --> 20:23.113
who your neighbors in
20:23.133 --> 20:24.253
Massachusetts would most
20:24.313 --> 20:25.994
likely acquit you of smuggling.
20:26.514 --> 20:28.154
Yeah, but there's no jury.
20:28.194 --> 20:30.055
It's just Peter Oliver and
20:30.155 --> 20:31.995
Thomas Hutchinson and guys
20:32.015 --> 20:35.236
who aren't fond of Mariners,
20:36.636 --> 20:38.116
according to Samuel Adams' rights.
20:40.837 --> 20:41.757
Yeah,
20:42.057 --> 20:44.498
and it's tried in a vice admiralty court.
20:45.658 --> 20:48.498
And John Adams defends the Mariners.
20:49.579 --> 20:51.019
And here's the kicker, friends.
20:53.690 --> 20:54.050
1769, right?
20:54.550 --> 20:55.831
We're not to the revolution.
20:56.391 --> 20:57.531
We're not to the Declaration
20:57.551 --> 20:59.332
of Independence yet.
21:00.052 --> 20:59.332
1769.
21:00.773 --> 21:03.554
But John Adams has the
21:03.574 --> 21:05.655
Mariners acquitted on the
21:05.695 --> 21:07.176
basis of justifiable
21:07.216 --> 21:08.756
homicide and self-defense.
21:09.677 --> 21:11.778
And he gets that verdict.
21:12.890 --> 21:14.491
Because on the side,
21:15.152 --> 21:18.314
he threatens to raise the 6th of Anne,
21:18.594 --> 21:20.716
the 1708 legislation that
21:20.836 --> 21:22.537
banned impressment in all
21:22.557 --> 21:23.318
of the Americas.
21:23.678 --> 21:25.759
And that was never taken off the books.
21:26.600 --> 21:28.001
That was technically still
21:28.161 --> 21:30.403
on the books by the letter of the law.
21:31.924 --> 21:34.586
That press gang was acting
21:34.646 --> 21:36.427
in an illegal manner.
21:37.146 --> 21:39.891
And it would have if the if
21:39.931 --> 21:41.433
the mariners were not acquitted,
21:41.633 --> 21:43.076
it would have put on trial
21:43.096 --> 21:44.478
the entire British Navy and
21:44.518 --> 21:45.639
possibly the entire British
21:45.900 --> 21:48.584
Empire in 1760.
21:48.584 --> 21:48.844
Wow.
21:49.405 --> 21:50.367
And John Adams would have
21:50.387 --> 21:51.589
been would have been the head of it.
21:52.216 --> 21:52.436
Right.
21:52.816 --> 21:53.837
He said it was the best case
21:53.877 --> 21:54.777
he ever argued.
21:54.857 --> 21:56.397
And we were talking with
21:56.437 --> 21:57.498
Chris Magra from the
21:57.558 --> 21:58.698
University of Tennessee at
21:58.738 --> 22:01.159
Knoxville about two of his
22:01.219 --> 22:02.759
books on maritime world
22:02.779 --> 22:04.000
before the revolution.
22:04.320 --> 22:04.660
And again,
22:04.680 --> 22:05.700
then it's a year later when he
22:05.760 --> 22:06.600
defends the British
22:06.640 --> 22:08.721
soldiers in his closing argument,
22:08.741 --> 22:09.982
he uses the case of
22:10.342 --> 22:11.702
justifiable homicide for
22:11.722 --> 22:12.522
the soldiers saying,
22:12.582 --> 22:13.303
wouldn't someone be
22:13.343 --> 22:15.083
justified in resisting a press gang?
22:15.563 --> 22:15.763
Yep.
22:16.884 --> 22:17.104
Yep.
22:17.604 --> 22:17.764
Yeah.
22:18.308 --> 22:20.509
It's an amazing story, Sue.
22:20.529 --> 22:22.090
Yeah, yeah, a lot of drama.
22:22.230 --> 22:23.671
I enjoyed researching that
22:23.771 --> 22:26.293
and enjoyed writing that history.
22:26.413 --> 22:26.573
Well,
22:27.033 --> 22:29.174
I'm glad you did because it really is
22:29.194 --> 22:30.315
a terrific way kind of
22:30.395 --> 22:31.876
reframing all of this.
22:31.896 --> 22:36.459
Now, we know that 1775 is a big year,
22:36.679 --> 22:38.720
but the way you tell the story,
22:38.720 --> 22:41.041
1775 is important for
22:41.322 --> 22:42.282
somewhat different reasons
22:42.342 --> 22:43.563
than Lexington and Concord.
22:44.083 --> 22:44.564
That's right.
22:44.744 --> 22:45.044
You know,
22:47.502 --> 22:50.926
One of the formative
22:50.986 --> 22:52.768
influences on my career is
22:52.828 --> 22:54.850
Robert Gross' Minutemen and Their World.
22:55.791 --> 22:57.613
Like a lot of folks, I've read that book.
22:58.173 --> 23:01.857
And my understanding of
23:03.438 --> 23:05.761
folks in inland Massachusetts is,
23:06.943 --> 23:08.204
is that they're largely
23:09.004 --> 23:10.905
disconnected from the rest of the world.
23:12.265 --> 23:14.686
And it's only when the
23:14.726 --> 23:16.067
British soldiers are kind
23:16.087 --> 23:18.588
of on their doorstep that
23:19.328 --> 23:21.048
they really get involved in
23:21.068 --> 23:21.729
the revolution.
23:26.574 --> 23:30.195
Here on the eastern seaboard
23:30.735 --> 23:32.276
and in coastal communities
23:32.336 --> 23:33.576
like Marblehead,
23:33.996 --> 23:36.677
in larger ports like Boston, New York,
23:36.717 --> 23:39.998
Philadelphia, Charleston, Newport,
23:40.878 --> 23:41.718
in these places,
23:41.798 --> 23:42.899
they are fundamentally
23:42.959 --> 23:44.479
connected to the wider
23:44.539 --> 23:48.840
world in very powerful ways
23:48.940 --> 23:50.261
and in daily ways.
23:52.206 --> 23:53.407
They're connected not just
23:53.447 --> 23:54.687
by overseas trade.
23:54.807 --> 23:56.368
There are people who work the water.
23:56.448 --> 23:57.789
There are people who work on
23:57.809 --> 23:58.789
the Atlantic Ocean.
23:58.809 --> 23:59.870
That is their job.
23:59.910 --> 24:01.170
That is their livelihood.
24:01.431 --> 24:02.151
That's how they feed
24:02.211 --> 24:03.772
themselves and their family.
24:05.032 --> 24:06.573
Principally, they're commercial fishermen.
24:07.816 --> 24:08.597
And there are many different
24:08.637 --> 24:09.878
types of commercial fishermen.
24:09.938 --> 24:11.039
There are whalers.
24:12.700 --> 24:14.202
There are folks who go to
24:14.222 --> 24:17.205
the sea to catch cod and to
24:17.265 --> 24:20.467
dry it and salt it and sell
24:20.528 --> 24:22.229
it in the Atlantic trade.
24:23.951 --> 24:26.193
And the richest deposit is
24:26.853 --> 24:28.094
of cod and the entire
24:28.134 --> 24:29.756
Atlantic Ocean is off the
24:29.776 --> 24:30.877
coast of Newfoundland and
24:31.097 --> 24:32.498
what is called the Grand Banks.
24:34.019 --> 24:36.381
It's a very important area
24:36.942 --> 24:40.065
for fishermen in colonial America.
24:41.786 --> 24:44.609
Jeff Bolster makes a case in his book,
24:44.669 --> 24:45.269
Mortal Sea,
24:45.850 --> 24:47.731
that it becomes increasingly
24:47.791 --> 24:49.052
important over the course
24:49.093 --> 24:49.633
of the 19th century
24:51.034 --> 24:51.995
But really,
24:52.015 --> 24:56.098
it is every bit as important in
24:56.138 --> 24:57.379
the 18th century as it is
24:57.419 --> 25:02.063
in the 19th century.
25:02.083 --> 25:07.247
It is so important that
25:08.688 --> 25:11.130
merchants in Boston begin a
25:11.190 --> 25:12.591
thriving business of
25:12.671 --> 25:14.152
selling supplies to
25:14.272 --> 25:16.094
commercial fishermen who
25:16.414 --> 25:17.695
are from Massachusetts,
25:18.980 --> 25:20.881
fishermen who are the very
25:20.961 --> 25:21.941
few fishermen who are at
25:22.021 --> 25:22.942
Newfoundland and working
25:22.962 --> 25:24.462
the Grand Banks and the
25:24.522 --> 25:26.343
large migratory fishery
25:26.383 --> 25:27.563
that works out of the West
25:27.643 --> 25:29.684
country in England and
25:29.704 --> 25:30.984
sails across the Atlantic
25:31.124 --> 25:32.004
Ocean during the warm
25:32.044 --> 25:33.785
summer months and works these waters.
25:35.385 --> 25:37.166
And so Massachusetts fishermen are there.
25:37.206 --> 25:38.067
They're working the grand
25:38.127 --> 25:42.630
banks and Boston merchants
25:42.670 --> 25:44.471
are supplying them with food and drinks.
25:45.371 --> 25:50.615
And this fishery does a couple of things.
25:51.628 --> 25:55.931
It not only provides a
25:56.031 --> 25:59.312
source of revenue for the British Empire,
25:59.933 --> 26:01.394
they are shipping this
26:02.034 --> 26:04.335
dried salted cod to slave
26:04.375 --> 26:05.836
plantations and to Catholic
26:05.896 --> 26:07.137
populations in Europe.
26:08.418 --> 26:09.458
They're getting new world
26:09.498 --> 26:11.019
golden species funneled
26:11.179 --> 26:12.460
into English coffers
26:13.020 --> 26:14.021
through the fisheries.
26:15.942 --> 26:17.163
It's providing a training
26:17.263 --> 26:19.424
ground for naval seamen.
26:20.353 --> 26:22.756
It's seen as the buzzword
26:22.776 --> 26:23.877
throughout the 1600s and
26:23.957 --> 26:26.160
1700s is it's a nursery for semen.
26:28.122 --> 26:30.765
And it's it's it's.
26:32.805 --> 26:34.847
It's also providing a way
26:35.007 --> 26:37.570
for people in Massachusetts
26:37.690 --> 26:40.833
to sell food and drinks to the French.
26:42.175 --> 26:43.736
After 1763,
26:43.736 --> 26:45.198
we tend to think of the French
26:45.258 --> 26:47.741
as kind of evaporating from North America,
26:48.161 --> 26:50.484
but there's two islands that they retain.
26:51.564 --> 26:54.146
through the Peace Treaty in 63,
26:54.146 --> 26:55.267
and that's the islands of St.
26:55.307 --> 26:56.247
Pierre and McClellan.
26:56.908 --> 26:57.829
And those are still French
26:57.929 --> 26:58.969
islands to this day.
26:59.049 --> 27:00.170
And they retain those two
27:00.370 --> 27:02.072
islands to give them some
27:02.312 --> 27:03.533
access to the Grand Banks
27:03.573 --> 27:05.074
and some access to the cod
27:05.114 --> 27:07.155
fisheries in the North Atlantic.
27:08.196 --> 27:12.199
And Americans are actively
27:12.259 --> 27:13.620
supporting that French fishery.
27:15.370 --> 27:18.772
All of this goes into 1775
27:18.772 --> 27:20.873
and the British government
27:21.834 --> 27:26.337
bans commercial fishing on
27:26.357 --> 27:28.458
the Atlantic Ocean for Americans.
27:29.639 --> 27:31.240
They ban it, friends.
27:32.821 --> 27:35.062
Not just, hey, you know,
27:35.122 --> 27:36.843
you can't go here and you
27:36.903 --> 27:37.944
can't do this for a
27:37.984 --> 27:40.225
specific amount of time.
27:40.645 --> 27:42.106
They shut down the American
27:42.166 --> 27:43.307
commercial fishing industry.
27:44.990 --> 27:47.251
an estimated 15,000
27:47.251 --> 27:48.292
commercial fishermen in
27:48.852 --> 27:49.813
colonial New England.
27:50.273 --> 27:51.474
And they're out of a job,
27:51.774 --> 27:53.135
now can't feed their families.
27:53.175 --> 27:54.475
What are they going to do for the future?
27:55.756 --> 27:58.037
And the merchants who are
27:58.117 --> 27:59.958
relying on the fisheries as
28:00.679 --> 28:02.020
it's the number one export
28:02.060 --> 28:04.201
in all of colonial New England.
28:04.201 --> 28:05.662
35% of all annual export
28:05.702 --> 28:07.122
revenues in colonial New
28:07.162 --> 28:08.803
England derived from the
28:08.843 --> 28:10.424
Atlantic cod trade.
28:10.544 --> 28:11.465
What are merchants going to do?
28:11.485 --> 28:12.265
What's the new source of
28:12.325 --> 28:12.966
revenue going to be?
28:12.986 --> 28:13.106
Yeah.
28:13.846 --> 28:15.127
That's why we have a
28:15.207 --> 28:16.368
five-foot-long wooden
28:16.428 --> 28:18.048
codfish hanging in our statehouse.
28:18.369 --> 28:20.310
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
28:21.050 --> 28:24.812
And many towns, not just Marblehead,
28:24.852 --> 28:25.893
Gloucester as well,
28:25.953 --> 28:26.974
you go around and some of
28:27.034 --> 28:28.995
the older historic homes
28:29.035 --> 28:33.497
will have a golden codfish on their home.
28:36.184 --> 28:38.285
this ban is put in place
28:38.906 --> 28:41.307
because of of lobbying from
28:41.347 --> 28:43.108
west country fish merchants
28:43.448 --> 28:45.530
in england who are arguing
28:45.590 --> 28:47.030
that americans are taking
28:47.050 --> 28:48.912
our business competitors
28:49.012 --> 28:50.432
and are taking their market
28:50.472 --> 28:53.094
share um they're all and
28:53.134 --> 28:55.175
the way they they help to
28:55.215 --> 28:56.496
make their case is that
28:56.536 --> 28:57.637
we're supplying the french
28:58.926 --> 29:00.806
islands with food and drink.
29:01.167 --> 29:03.547
And also we're selling our
29:03.607 --> 29:04.887
refuse grade dried salted
29:04.927 --> 29:06.608
cod to the French Caribbean
29:06.708 --> 29:07.728
islands and the French
29:07.768 --> 29:08.988
Caribbean sugar planters.
29:09.488 --> 29:10.789
And for patriotic reasons,
29:10.829 --> 29:14.069
this needs to be shut down.
29:14.409 --> 29:16.230
The British Navy weighs in
29:16.350 --> 29:19.111
on it that not only are we
29:19.171 --> 29:21.111
helping the French, but
29:22.648 --> 29:22.948
We,
29:23.789 --> 29:26.570
our fishing vessels and our commercial
29:26.831 --> 29:28.532
vessels are taking
29:28.592 --> 29:31.193
deserters away from the
29:31.233 --> 29:32.254
British Navy who are
29:32.294 --> 29:34.935
stationed around the grand
29:34.975 --> 29:38.137
banks to defend British
29:38.618 --> 29:40.419
fishing rights for the
29:40.459 --> 29:41.599
grand banks that are part
29:41.700 --> 29:44.081
of that 63 peace treaty.
29:44.241 --> 29:48.984
And so parliament,
29:50.350 --> 29:51.912
passes this act in 1775.
29:52.793 --> 29:54.455
It's called the Restraining Act.
29:54.555 --> 29:56.557
It's meant to restrain Americans.
29:57.458 --> 29:59.220
It shuts down our commercial
29:59.240 --> 30:02.183
fishing industry and it specifies
30:03.171 --> 30:04.112
Get this, everyone,
30:04.452 --> 30:07.796
that 1708 Act is officially dead.
30:09.097 --> 30:09.357
Wow.
30:09.457 --> 30:10.438
The interesting thing about
30:10.478 --> 30:12.820
putting that in the books
30:13.021 --> 30:14.862
in 75 is that doesn't that
30:14.942 --> 30:18.005
imply that from 1708 to 1775,
30:18.005 --> 30:21.188
it was actually the law of the land?
30:22.289 --> 30:23.771
If you are now putting it into writing,
30:23.791 --> 30:24.452
then it's over.
30:24.472 --> 30:25.312
Right.
30:25.573 --> 30:25.793
Yeah.
30:26.353 --> 30:26.514
Wow.
30:27.616 --> 30:29.318
That sort of implies that.
30:29.979 --> 30:36.069
And that 75 Act does politically motivate
30:37.768 --> 30:39.789
workers, maritime laborers.
30:40.349 --> 30:44.030
It does get them involved in
30:44.130 --> 30:46.791
the military activities in
30:46.791 --> 30:49.472
75 and into 76.
30:49.472 --> 30:51.773
And it's no coincidence that
30:51.833 --> 30:53.173
commercial fishermen have
30:53.193 --> 30:55.374
the highest rate of mobilization.
30:55.834 --> 30:57.635
About 33% of commercial
30:57.675 --> 31:00.395
fishing towns in New
31:00.476 --> 31:02.836
England mobilize for war.
31:03.316 --> 31:04.817
It's no coincidence.
31:05.839 --> 31:06.360
It's amazing.
31:06.420 --> 31:07.681
It's why these guys from
31:07.741 --> 31:09.022
Gloucester and Marblehead
31:09.062 --> 31:10.863
then are at the Siege of Boston.
31:10.943 --> 31:12.365
They're camping out with the
31:12.465 --> 31:13.566
army and they're at Bunker
31:13.606 --> 31:16.148
Hill and these and John Glover, of course,
31:16.228 --> 31:17.869
is involved in a lot of ways.
31:18.050 --> 31:18.990
It really is.
31:19.030 --> 31:19.291
I mean,
31:19.331 --> 31:21.393
you really tied that together in a
31:21.453 --> 31:24.255
way that is interesting,
31:24.515 --> 31:25.776
unique and makes us rethink
31:25.896 --> 31:27.198
what's mobilizing,
31:27.238 --> 31:28.679
what is mobilizing these guys.
31:29.386 --> 31:29.606
Yeah,
31:29.706 --> 31:32.207
everybody out there who's familiar
31:32.247 --> 31:33.707
with Washington's Crossing,
31:34.468 --> 31:36.028
it should be called Glover's Crossing.
31:36.448 --> 31:37.369
If you don't know that,
31:38.749 --> 31:39.729
then you need to read some
31:39.789 --> 31:41.230
history of the Washington
31:41.250 --> 31:43.110
Crossing and the Marblehead Mariners.
31:43.551 --> 31:44.191
And man,
31:44.291 --> 31:45.911
everybody should read George Ethan
31:45.931 --> 31:47.812
Billius's book on John
31:47.852 --> 31:49.232
Glover and the Marblehead Mariners,
31:49.332 --> 31:52.854
published in 1960.
31:52.854 --> 31:54.314
Still stands today.
31:54.394 --> 31:55.694
Still an excellent piece of
31:55.734 --> 31:56.855
scholarship to this day.
31:57.255 --> 31:57.355
Great.
31:57.688 --> 31:58.068
Stephen Russell, Ph.D.
31:58.068 --> 31:58.088
:
31:58.088 --> 31:59.749
yeah we're talking with Chris magra from
31:59.849 --> 32:01.070
the University of Tennessee
32:01.110 --> 32:02.271
at knoxville author of
32:02.371 --> 32:04.512
Poseidon's cross Poseidon's
32:05.033 --> 32:06.434
curse British naval
32:06.474 --> 32:07.674
impressment in the Atlantic
32:07.794 --> 32:09.335
origins of the American revolution.
32:09.355 --> 32:09.736
Stephen Russell, Ph.D.
32:09.736 --> 32:09.856
:
32:09.856 --> 32:12.017
As well as the fisherman's cause Atlantic
32:12.057 --> 32:13.138
commerce and maritime
32:13.158 --> 32:15.079
dimensions of the American revolution.
32:15.805 --> 32:17.446
And by the way, until I read your book,
32:17.526 --> 32:18.467
I wasn't aware that
32:18.647 --> 32:20.149
impressment wasn't only men.
32:20.169 --> 32:22.150
The British Navy also could impress ships.
32:22.490 --> 32:23.711
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
32:26.093 --> 32:28.035
We think about it in terms
32:28.115 --> 32:29.416
of requisitioning.
32:30.417 --> 32:31.438
And we're probably most
32:31.498 --> 32:33.159
familiar with the British
32:33.259 --> 32:34.720
Army and the American Army
32:35.281 --> 32:36.842
during the Revolutionary War.
32:37.506 --> 32:40.708
foraging and taking food
32:40.768 --> 32:44.250
from farms by force.
32:44.670 --> 32:45.551
And afterwards,
32:45.611 --> 32:47.092
the farmers could petition
32:47.112 --> 32:49.613
to have some sort of
32:49.674 --> 32:52.055
financial recompense for that.
32:53.516 --> 32:56.498
The way it worked with the
32:56.538 --> 32:58.399
British Navy is they could
32:58.499 --> 33:00.240
not just confiscate
33:00.280 --> 33:01.921
manpower if they needed it
33:01.981 --> 33:03.162
to meet their complements.
33:03.502 --> 33:06.544
They could also confiscate privately owned
33:07.447 --> 33:07.802
Shipping.
33:08.790 --> 33:12.953
And it's not just for use in
33:13.053 --> 33:15.735
wars or for active fighting,
33:15.995 --> 33:16.936
but it could be just as
33:16.976 --> 33:19.238
simple as a message needs
33:19.278 --> 33:21.260
to be sent and a vessel is
33:21.320 --> 33:22.621
needed for that purpose.
33:23.441 --> 33:26.184
And whether that disrupts the trade voyage,
33:28.085 --> 33:30.267
whether that cuts short a
33:30.307 --> 33:31.788
merchant's profit margins,
33:33.049 --> 33:35.031
whether that takes a free
33:35.131 --> 33:37.072
laborer out of the marketplace,
33:38.013 --> 33:40.454
and forces them into the British Navy,
33:40.514 --> 33:41.354
which, by the way,
33:41.615 --> 33:43.735
is is not a good trade.
33:44.316 --> 33:44.556
Right.
33:44.916 --> 33:46.496
The British Navy is one of
33:46.576 --> 33:48.717
the the worst employers
33:49.257 --> 33:50.718
throughout the 18th century.
33:50.758 --> 33:52.159
They do not increase their
33:52.219 --> 33:53.359
pay rate for over 100 years.
33:55.808 --> 33:57.108
And in addition to that,
33:57.208 --> 33:59.269
you have discipline.
34:00.889 --> 34:02.089
In addition to that,
34:02.549 --> 34:04.110
you do not have the freedom
34:04.810 --> 34:06.490
to enter the marketplace
34:06.690 --> 34:07.930
and find other work if you
34:07.950 --> 34:09.951
do not like your conditions,
34:10.151 --> 34:16.512
your working conditions.
34:17.672 --> 34:19.052
It's not just manpower.
34:19.673 --> 34:21.373
I want people to think about
34:22.478 --> 34:23.559
the men as workers.
34:24.640 --> 34:25.702
And I want people to think
34:25.742 --> 34:30.487
about those ships, not just as, as ships,
34:30.587 --> 34:30.787
you know,
34:30.907 --> 34:32.029
Marcus Rediker calls them
34:32.069 --> 34:33.050
floating factories.
34:33.110 --> 34:33.570
They,
34:33.891 --> 34:38.456
they are much more than a means of
34:38.516 --> 34:39.297
going from A to B.
34:40.296 --> 34:41.057
Right, right.
34:41.297 --> 34:42.758
And the fishing vessels particularly,
34:42.798 --> 34:43.979
those are working vessels.
34:44.700 --> 34:48.083
And you have them, the cod fishing vessels,
34:48.103 --> 34:49.444
they'll be fishing in one
34:49.484 --> 34:50.265
season of the year,
34:50.325 --> 34:51.446
and then they'll be
34:51.506 --> 34:52.647
actually the same vessel
34:52.747 --> 34:53.928
bringing the goods either
34:53.948 --> 34:56.150
to Bilboa or to the West Indies.
34:56.210 --> 34:57.110
Yeah, yeah.
34:57.451 --> 35:04.517
You know, I published an article on this.
35:05.177 --> 35:05.758
We think...
35:07.549 --> 35:09.330
And we teach and we write
35:09.570 --> 35:11.011
about people as if they
35:11.051 --> 35:14.213
have one identity for their entire lives.
35:15.353 --> 35:17.534
John Adams was a lawyer.
35:17.554 --> 35:20.536
That's how we think about John Adams.
35:20.936 --> 35:22.717
We don't think about the
35:22.777 --> 35:24.998
broad range of things that
35:25.038 --> 35:26.879
he did in his interests.
35:30.313 --> 35:33.839
Danny Vickers argued very
35:33.919 --> 35:35.081
persuasively in Farmers and
35:35.101 --> 35:36.724
Fishermen that fishing is a
35:36.764 --> 35:37.686
by-employment.
35:37.846 --> 35:41.653
It's pursued during slack times and for a
35:43.334 --> 35:45.175
only a portion of people's lives.
35:45.255 --> 35:46.655
It's not their entire lives.
35:48.256 --> 35:49.436
It's oftentimes not
35:49.496 --> 35:51.257
something that young people
35:51.297 --> 35:52.537
do before the age of 12.
35:52.537 --> 35:54.938
It's often not something
35:55.878 --> 35:58.819
that older people do past the age of 30.
35:58.819 --> 36:03.441
So Vickers argued, and I think he's right,
36:03.481 --> 36:05.021
that we need to connect land and sea,
36:05.061 --> 36:05.922
and we need to do a better
36:05.982 --> 36:09.443
job of taking these
36:09.903 --> 36:12.024
workers' lives into account.
36:12.664 --> 36:12.804
Yeah.
36:13.339 --> 36:13.479
Yeah,
36:14.080 --> 36:15.881
you've done a lot of that in the book,
36:16.161 --> 36:19.204
and I hope to see more.
36:19.264 --> 36:19.664
Also,
36:19.764 --> 36:23.047
you make the point about the purpose
36:23.067 --> 36:24.068
of the British Navy was to
36:24.108 --> 36:25.088
protect commerce,
36:25.168 --> 36:26.770
but by impressing men in ships,
36:26.790 --> 36:28.471
they're actually impeding the commerce.
36:29.112 --> 36:30.393
Men are leaving Boston or
36:30.433 --> 36:31.173
other places where they
36:31.193 --> 36:32.074
know there's a press gang,
36:32.554 --> 36:35.376
and ships are getting taken
36:35.457 --> 36:36.537
by the British Navy that
36:36.597 --> 36:38.379
can't then be part of the
36:39.099 --> 36:41.081
trade that's making the empire prosper.
36:41.621 --> 36:41.861
Yeah.
36:42.221 --> 36:42.761
On one hand,
36:42.801 --> 36:44.122
you have American merchants
36:44.822 --> 36:47.283
petitioning Parliament and
36:47.383 --> 36:49.404
sending lobbyists, paid lobbyists,
36:49.564 --> 36:51.725
over to Parliament to lobby
36:52.145 --> 36:55.186
for naval convoys to
36:55.226 --> 36:56.367
protect shipping from
36:56.447 --> 36:59.128
pirates and enemy forces in
36:59.208 --> 37:00.148
Atlantic waters.
37:00.808 --> 37:04.670
They want the protection of
37:04.710 --> 37:05.570
the British Empire.
37:06.310 --> 37:07.291
They just don't want the
37:07.331 --> 37:11.112
costs associated with that protection.
37:13.089 --> 37:14.710
It's a fascinating world.
37:14.750 --> 37:15.850
We've been talking with
37:15.910 --> 37:17.051
Chris Magra from the
37:17.151 --> 37:18.671
University of Tennessee, Knoxville.
37:18.731 --> 37:20.192
He is also the director for
37:20.232 --> 37:21.953
the Center for the Study of
37:21.993 --> 37:24.774
Tennesseans and War and
37:24.974 --> 37:26.955
author of Poseidon's Curse,
37:27.075 --> 37:28.395
British Naval Impressment
37:28.575 --> 37:29.876
in the Origins of the
37:29.916 --> 37:32.637
American Revolution and the
37:32.657 --> 37:33.578
Fisherman's Cause.
37:34.278 --> 37:35.418
And now I understand you're
37:35.618 --> 37:36.459
turning your attention to
37:36.499 --> 37:38.420
the big commodity of the 18th century,
37:38.500 --> 37:38.720
sugar.
37:40.620 --> 37:41.441
I am, yes.
37:41.501 --> 37:42.501
I'm writing a book on
37:42.621 --> 37:43.781
chocolate production in
37:45.622 --> 37:46.982
North America in the 18th
37:47.022 --> 37:50.003
century and the ties
37:50.063 --> 37:50.863
between these North
37:50.924 --> 37:52.164
American centers of
37:52.224 --> 37:55.065
chocolate manufacturing and slave labor.
37:55.825 --> 37:59.166
So I got into this in my second book.
37:59.446 --> 38:01.447
I did research in the Caleb
38:01.487 --> 38:02.927
Davis papers at the MHS.
38:05.888 --> 38:08.149
caleb davis was a merchant
38:08.189 --> 38:10.009
lived outside of boston and
38:10.029 --> 38:12.050
owned a lot of ships was
38:12.090 --> 38:13.590
involved in atlantic trade
38:14.290 --> 38:15.411
and I wanted to see if he
38:15.511 --> 38:17.931
had any instances of his
38:17.991 --> 38:19.112
mariners getting pressed
38:19.172 --> 38:20.412
his ships getting pressed
38:20.812 --> 38:21.733
and what he had to say
38:21.793 --> 38:24.253
about that and caleb davis
38:24.353 --> 38:27.114
ends up financing a a ship
38:27.154 --> 38:28.514
in the massachusetts navy
38:28.735 --> 38:29.795
during the revolution he
38:29.815 --> 38:30.995
becomes a patriot during
38:31.015 --> 38:33.856
the revolution uh partly as a result of
38:34.682 --> 38:34.742
uh,
38:34.822 --> 38:36.404
British Navy's disruption of his
38:36.484 --> 38:36.925
commerce.
38:37.425 --> 38:39.327
But Caleb Davis also started
38:39.367 --> 38:40.769
a chocolate factory outside
38:40.789 --> 38:43.231
of Boston in 1765.
38:43.231 --> 38:43.672
Oh, wow.
38:43.712 --> 38:44.553
Who does this?
38:44.873 --> 38:45.073
Yeah.
38:45.114 --> 38:47.216
There's no industrialization.
38:47.236 --> 38:47.937
Yeah.
38:48.017 --> 38:51.761
For the 1790s, let alone chocolate.
38:51.801 --> 38:53.803
He's producing chocolate.
38:54.063 --> 38:54.303
Wow.
38:54.323 --> 38:54.404
Um,
38:55.100 --> 38:57.681
And it kind of stuck with me.
38:57.741 --> 38:58.921
I couldn't let Cable Davis
38:58.961 --> 39:00.282
and his chocolate factory go.
39:00.302 --> 39:02.923
I wanted to pursue that as
39:03.423 --> 39:05.144
an early American food history.
39:05.164 --> 39:06.684
That's how I first thought about it.
39:06.704 --> 39:08.505
I thought, well,
39:08.545 --> 39:10.846
there isn't a book on
39:11.146 --> 39:14.547
chocolate manufacturing in North America.
39:15.891 --> 39:17.272
I want to write that book.
39:18.072 --> 39:19.393
I want it to be a food history,
39:19.413 --> 39:20.334
a business history.
39:21.274 --> 39:23.055
So I'll look into it.
39:23.336 --> 39:25.037
And I found that there are
39:25.117 --> 39:28.259
over 100 entrepreneurs in
39:28.319 --> 39:29.659
North America who start
39:30.000 --> 39:32.141
manufacturing chocolate as
39:32.221 --> 39:34.723
early as 1730 in Rhode Island.
39:35.183 --> 39:35.343
Wow.
39:38.757 --> 39:40.440
And it's up and down the eastern seaboard,
39:40.500 --> 39:40.720
too.
39:40.780 --> 39:42.243
It's as far south as Georgia
39:42.544 --> 39:43.646
that people are doing this.
39:44.588 --> 39:46.752
And so that was interesting.
39:46.832 --> 39:48.054
And I also learned that
39:48.054 --> 39:51.579
100% of the cocoa beans were
39:51.659 --> 39:53.860
sourced from slave plantations.
39:54.780 --> 39:55.960
Some of these plantations in
39:55.980 --> 39:57.581
the Caribbean and in South
39:57.621 --> 40:00.462
America are producing sugar
40:00.642 --> 40:02.463
and just a little bit of
40:02.583 --> 40:03.843
cocoa beans on the side.
40:04.204 --> 40:05.264
Some of them are actually
40:05.324 --> 40:08.105
full blown cocoa bean plantations.
40:08.625 --> 40:08.885
Wow.
40:09.585 --> 40:13.827
And then I found that there
40:13.847 --> 40:16.028
were enslaved peoples and you can you can
40:17.446 --> 40:18.687
find this pretty easily in the,
40:18.907 --> 40:21.569
in runaway slave advertisements, uh,
40:21.689 --> 40:22.690
advertisements for slaves
40:22.710 --> 40:23.850
who had run away from
40:23.990 --> 40:25.591
chocolate manufacturing businesses.
40:26.872 --> 40:28.834
Um, and that shocked me.
40:28.874 --> 40:30.255
Like in slave labor is,
40:30.435 --> 40:31.015
is involved in
40:31.055 --> 40:32.976
manufacturing in North America.
40:33.016 --> 40:34.237
What's, what's that about?
40:34.257 --> 40:35.358
I felt the land of free
40:35.418 --> 40:37.499
labor and what was separate from,
40:37.660 --> 40:38.540
from the land of slave
40:38.580 --> 40:40.501
labor and manufacturing is,
40:40.782 --> 40:41.982
is different than agriculture.
40:42.002 --> 40:42.883
What's going on here?
40:42.923 --> 40:44.184
My worlds were colliding.
40:44.824 --> 40:45.084
Wow.
40:45.525 --> 40:45.605
Um,
40:48.030 --> 40:50.571
And it got further
40:50.631 --> 40:54.333
complicated in the labor
40:54.633 --> 40:57.094
arrangements that chocolate
40:57.114 --> 40:58.354
manufacturers made.
40:58.414 --> 41:02.796
They wanted a captive labor force.
41:03.856 --> 41:05.657
Producing chocolate in bulk
41:06.157 --> 41:07.878
is not only labor intensive,
41:08.678 --> 41:10.239
it's routine.
41:10.639 --> 41:11.979
It's over and over and over
41:12.019 --> 41:13.660
and over and over again on a daily basis.
41:13.953 --> 41:16.014
basis every day, week after week,
41:16.054 --> 41:18.435
month after month.
41:18.455 --> 41:23.118
And so they were contracting
41:23.618 --> 41:29.061
to pay wages to enslaved people.
41:29.301 --> 41:32.263
And then figuring out ways
41:32.443 --> 41:36.565
to keep those people working for them.
41:37.085 --> 41:38.406
And one of the ways they did
41:38.426 --> 41:39.347
it was through debt.
41:42.480 --> 41:44.521
They would sell goods to
41:44.561 --> 41:46.622
their enslaved workers for
41:46.662 --> 41:49.983
their wages and then keep
41:50.023 --> 41:51.903
them on account and kept
41:51.963 --> 41:53.124
them kind of on the hook,
41:53.724 --> 41:54.924
kept them coming back,
41:55.945 --> 41:57.785
working for meager wages
41:58.286 --> 41:59.786
and going heavily into debt.
42:00.426 --> 42:01.387
And that got me thinking
42:01.467 --> 42:06.728
about bondage and the kind
42:06.768 --> 42:08.689
of gray space between free
42:08.749 --> 42:10.210
labor and slave labor.
42:13.052 --> 42:14.313
And yeah, it just got,
42:14.453 --> 42:15.514
it got really interesting,
42:15.554 --> 42:16.535
really fast for me.
42:17.515 --> 42:18.096
Sounds like it.
42:18.156 --> 42:19.497
I look forward to reading it.
42:19.517 --> 42:20.437
Yeah.
42:20.678 --> 42:21.378
Hearing more about it.
42:21.798 --> 42:23.380
So thank you so much, Chris.
42:23.400 --> 42:24.160
We've been talking with
42:24.200 --> 42:25.181
Chris Magra from the
42:25.241 --> 42:26.862
University of Tennessee, Knoxville,
42:26.942 --> 42:28.543
author of Poseidon's Curse
42:29.084 --> 42:30.505
and the Fisherman's Cause
42:30.605 --> 42:32.366
and other articles and
42:32.406 --> 42:33.827
director of the Center for
42:33.867 --> 42:35.428
the Study of Tennesseans and War.
42:35.448 --> 42:36.789
Thank you so much for joining us.
42:37.209 --> 42:38.330
Thank you for having me, Bob.
42:38.350 --> 42:39.251
It was a real pleasure.
42:39.597 --> 42:40.197
You can probably tell we
42:40.217 --> 42:42.678
could go on all day talking about things,
42:42.738 --> 42:44.559
and I encourage people to get the books.
42:45.619 --> 42:47.119
And I want to thank our producer,
42:47.179 --> 42:48.000
Jonathan Lane,
42:48.300 --> 42:50.360
as well as our many friends
42:50.480 --> 42:51.961
and listeners around the world.
42:51.981 --> 42:52.461
You know, Chris,
42:52.481 --> 42:53.521
we started off thinking
42:53.541 --> 42:55.202
we'd have a handful of folks tuning in,
42:55.262 --> 42:58.903
but this is our 179th episode,
42:59.103 --> 43:00.444
and we have had folks
43:00.524 --> 43:01.684
downloading this in 3,000
43:01.684 --> 43:03.204
cities in 87 different countries, and
43:05.737 --> 43:07.038
Every week, I thank some of them.
43:07.078 --> 43:08.279
And if you're in one of these places,
43:08.339 --> 43:10.140
want to send Jonathan Lane an email,
43:10.200 --> 43:13.201
jlane at revolution250.org.
43:13.261 --> 43:15.483
He'll send you some of our Rev 250 gear.
43:16.263 --> 43:17.284
So this week,
43:17.344 --> 43:18.765
particularly folks in Marblehead,
43:19.025 --> 43:20.085
Salem and Beverly,
43:21.046 --> 43:24.008
Norfolk and Hampton in Virginia, Dundee,
43:24.188 --> 43:26.709
Edinburgh and North Berwick in Scotland,
43:27.129 --> 43:29.010
Southampton, England and Southampton,
43:29.050 --> 43:29.671
Pennsylvania.
43:30.111 --> 43:32.134
hamburg and nuremberg tel
43:32.154 --> 43:34.457
aviv bataya thailand
43:34.998 --> 43:36.379
arlington memphis and
43:36.439 --> 43:38.883
franklin in tennessee and
43:38.963 --> 43:40.405
libertyville illinois thank
43:40.425 --> 43:41.886
you all to those places
43:41.987 --> 43:43.589
places between beyond and
43:43.629 --> 43:45.271
now we will be piped out on
43:45.291 --> 43:46.072
the road to boston