The history of the American Revolution is peppered with the stories of women who perform acts of heroism in service to the cause of Liberty. Women such as Mary Ludwig Hays, Margaret Corbin & Deborah Sampson are among the many heralded for their service. Many more women served as information gatherers for General Washington, and today, Aly Riley, auther of "She Spies; Women of the Revolution" will join us to discuss the role of women in the spy rings of General Washington.
The history of the American Revolution is peppered with the stories of women who perform acts of heroism in service to the cause of Liberty. Women such as Mary Ludwig Hays, Margaret Corbin & Deborah Sampson are among the many heralded for their service. Many more women served as information gatherers for General Washington, and today, Aly Riley, auther of "She Spies; Women of the Revolution" will join us to discuss the role of women in the spy rings of General Washington.
WEBVTT
00:00.896 --> 00:02.357
hello everyone welcome to
00:02.377 --> 00:04.319
the revolution 250 podcast
00:04.459 --> 00:05.900
i am bob allison i chair
00:05.940 --> 00:07.522
the rep 250 advisory group
00:08.042 --> 00:09.243
we are a consortium of
00:09.323 --> 00:10.905
about 70 plus groups in
00:10.925 --> 00:12.666
massachusetts planning ways
00:12.686 --> 00:13.307
to commemorate the
00:13.327 --> 00:14.288
beginnings of the american
00:14.328 --> 00:16.149
revolution and our guest
00:16.189 --> 00:17.951
today is alexandra riley
00:18.051 --> 00:21.214
ali riley is a historian filmmaker
00:22.194 --> 00:23.655
And she has just finished a
00:23.695 --> 00:25.435
book called She Spies,
00:25.715 --> 00:27.316
which is about women spies
00:27.576 --> 00:28.296
in the revolution.
00:28.316 --> 00:29.356
Ali, thanks for joining us.
00:29.696 --> 00:30.737
Thank you for having me.
00:31.297 --> 00:32.017
I should say you're also
00:32.077 --> 00:33.457
working on a film about the
00:33.537 --> 00:35.018
women spies in the revolution.
00:35.478 --> 00:36.098
I am, yes.
00:36.158 --> 00:37.179
I'm hoping to bring She
00:37.199 --> 00:38.359
Spies out to the world even
00:38.439 --> 00:39.499
further besides the book
00:39.579 --> 00:40.920
and hopefully bring it to
00:40.940 --> 00:42.740
either maybe Netflix, History Channel,
00:42.980 --> 00:44.201
get the word out about this book.
00:44.781 --> 00:45.101
Very good.
00:45.601 --> 00:46.581
So how did you get into
00:46.681 --> 00:48.662
doing this as a research project?
00:49.281 --> 00:49.441
Well,
00:49.461 --> 00:50.642
when I was a student at Monmouth
00:50.682 --> 00:51.163
University,
00:51.203 --> 00:52.424
I graduated there with grad
00:52.444 --> 00:54.106
school about three years ago.
00:54.907 --> 00:56.188
And one of my projects for
00:56.208 --> 00:57.990
my professor was that he said,
00:58.010 --> 00:58.931
you could do any project
00:58.951 --> 00:59.932
you want on the American
00:59.952 --> 01:01.394
Revolution for your final paper.
01:01.934 --> 01:02.635
Doesn't matter what it is,
01:02.675 --> 01:04.136
whether it's the Boston Tea Party,
01:04.537 --> 01:06.279
a general, anything you like.
01:06.479 --> 01:07.380
He said, pick something.
01:07.800 --> 01:08.721
So I said, well...
01:09.582 --> 01:10.583
I'm going to skim through the books,
01:10.603 --> 01:11.203
see if there's anything
01:11.223 --> 01:12.164
that piqued my interest.
01:12.364 --> 01:13.844
And I found a Culper Spiring.
01:13.864 --> 01:15.605
And a lot of it was based on
01:15.645 --> 01:16.386
Long Island where my
01:16.426 --> 01:17.486
father's family's from.
01:18.067 --> 01:19.348
So then after I did that,
01:19.628 --> 01:20.828
I saw Anna Strong.
01:20.908 --> 01:21.409
And I was like,
01:21.709 --> 01:22.669
I wonder if there are more
01:22.729 --> 01:24.290
women spies that helped to
01:24.370 --> 01:25.551
either both the British or
01:25.611 --> 01:26.532
the American cause.
01:27.052 --> 01:28.593
And there were so many more that I found.
01:28.633 --> 01:28.873
I said,
01:29.493 --> 01:30.834
I want their stories told because
01:31.094 --> 01:31.995
nobody's told them before.
01:32.115 --> 01:33.095
I didn't even know about them.
01:33.355 --> 01:33.956
And I've been studying
01:33.996 --> 01:34.696
American history since I
01:34.736 --> 01:37.283
was 13 and I'm 30.
01:37.283 --> 01:38.844
And I had no idea.
01:39.525 --> 01:40.685
So we're always learning new things.
01:40.705 --> 01:43.147
So tell us a bit about how the She Spies,
01:43.167 --> 01:44.928
how these women operated.
01:44.988 --> 01:45.828
What was their role?
01:45.888 --> 01:47.029
If you can pick one or two
01:47.069 --> 01:48.169
and just tell us their story,
01:48.209 --> 01:49.070
that might be one way of
01:49.090 --> 01:49.690
getting into this.
01:50.391 --> 01:50.531
Well,
01:50.551 --> 01:52.031
there was some that happened before
01:52.072 --> 01:53.212
the American Revolution.
01:53.312 --> 01:56.594
So in 1773, during the Boston Tea Party,
01:56.974 --> 01:58.475
Sarah Bradley Fulton helped
01:58.815 --> 02:01.117
build a field hospital in Boston.
02:02.077 --> 02:03.358
boston common and she was
02:03.418 --> 02:04.319
able to sneak back and
02:04.379 --> 02:06.101
forth with her sister with
02:06.161 --> 02:07.502
some other female citizens
02:07.923 --> 02:08.964
and she pulled it off so
02:09.024 --> 02:10.405
well george washington
02:10.465 --> 02:11.767
actually sent her a letter of thanks
02:12.918 --> 02:14.299
And I thought that was really interesting.
02:14.319 --> 02:15.239
And this was before even he
02:15.279 --> 02:15.939
was appointed to be the
02:15.999 --> 02:17.600
Continental Army General.
02:18.360 --> 02:19.441
And then I noticed that
02:19.541 --> 02:20.982
Lydia Dara from
02:21.022 --> 02:22.142
Philadelphia and Anna
02:22.202 --> 02:23.883
Strong on Long Island were very similar.
02:24.123 --> 02:25.383
They both had soldiers that
02:25.423 --> 02:27.865
invaded their homes and they both found,
02:28.285 --> 02:28.925
even though their stories
02:28.965 --> 02:29.725
are a little different in
02:29.745 --> 02:31.926
terms of how they helped spy,
02:31.946 --> 02:34.547
they both had soldiers in their homes.
02:34.648 --> 02:35.488
So Lydia Dara,
02:35.708 --> 02:36.888
General Howe invaded in
02:36.969 --> 02:38.829
Philly and she actually hid
02:38.869 --> 02:39.750
in the linen closet.
02:40.450 --> 02:42.131
Because the soldier said,
02:42.291 --> 02:43.152
you need to go to bed.
02:43.232 --> 02:44.552
We don't want to hear anything.
02:45.253 --> 02:46.313
But she went in the closet
02:46.353 --> 02:47.454
and hid pretending to go to
02:47.514 --> 02:49.195
bed or pretending to put laundry away.
02:49.976 --> 02:50.696
When in reality,
02:50.736 --> 02:51.496
she wrote everything down
02:51.556 --> 02:53.257
and her son was serving
02:53.297 --> 02:54.378
under George Washington.
02:55.118 --> 02:56.799
So she pretended the next
02:56.900 --> 02:58.560
morning to go get flour.
02:58.861 --> 03:00.602
And of course, the British letter saying,
03:00.622 --> 03:01.782
you know, she's trying to feed her family,
03:01.842 --> 03:02.223
whatever.
03:02.803 --> 03:03.783
She brought the note to her
03:03.864 --> 03:05.524
son and they were able to flee.
03:05.865 --> 03:07.045
So the attack on White Marsh
03:07.085 --> 03:07.926
really never happened.
03:09.418 --> 03:10.919
then anna strong did the
03:10.959 --> 03:13.622
laundry line when that when
03:13.822 --> 03:15.383
um they would sail across
03:15.403 --> 03:16.484
the long island sound she
03:16.504 --> 03:17.265
would put up different
03:17.365 --> 03:18.926
colored petticoats to say
03:18.966 --> 03:20.207
go to this cove go to that
03:20.287 --> 03:22.949
cove so they're a little
03:23.009 --> 03:23.850
different but they're still
03:23.890 --> 03:26.192
so amazing interesting they
03:26.212 --> 03:27.453
are fascinating stories and
03:27.513 --> 03:29.134
you said they're not really
03:29.174 --> 03:31.076
well represented because a
03:31.156 --> 03:31.917
they're conducting
03:32.017 --> 03:33.198
espionage so they're not
03:33.678 --> 03:34.939
writing down what they did
03:35.319 --> 03:37.201
and b of course they're women so
03:37.662 --> 03:39.243
How do we find out what
03:39.303 --> 03:40.784
their role is of people who
03:40.824 --> 03:42.405
are doing something so clandestine?
03:43.265 --> 03:44.966
I mean, I had a lot of research.
03:44.986 --> 03:47.488
When I looked up on JSTOR,
03:47.508 --> 03:48.428
which is what Monmouth
03:48.848 --> 03:50.169
Student Services and all that,
03:50.389 --> 03:51.310
and I looked up female
03:51.350 --> 03:52.831
spies in the American Revolution,
03:53.151 --> 03:56.093
there was a entry by a man
03:56.113 --> 03:57.073
named Henry Darrow.
03:57.413 --> 03:58.694
They said no relation to Lydia.
03:58.794 --> 03:59.955
I'm not sure about that.
04:00.335 --> 04:01.876
But it said he witnessed her
04:02.396 --> 04:03.277
doing all of that.
04:03.937 --> 04:06.177
And then I'm not exactly
04:06.258 --> 04:07.398
sure how they met Anna
04:07.458 --> 04:08.438
Strong on Long Island.
04:08.498 --> 04:09.438
I think it was Robert
04:09.458 --> 04:11.339
Townsend because they lived Oyster Bay,
04:11.799 --> 04:12.979
which is Nassau County.
04:13.359 --> 04:15.299
And then Anna Strong lived in Setauket,
04:15.339 --> 04:16.720
which is Suffolk County.
04:17.300 --> 04:19.220
And he contacted Caleb Brewster,
04:19.260 --> 04:20.761
who would sail across the Sound,
04:21.081 --> 04:22.361
and he would see her petticoats.
04:23.141 --> 04:24.001
And that's how he knew where
04:24.021 --> 04:24.921
to go and what to do.
04:27.362 --> 04:29.742
And you're also trying to
04:29.782 --> 04:31.423
work on a feature film about this.
04:31.663 --> 04:31.943
Yes.
04:32.694 --> 04:34.795
you formed Under the Horizon Productions.
04:34.815 --> 04:36.256
So how's that going?
04:36.296 --> 04:36.916
How's that process?
04:37.056 --> 04:37.817
It's going good.
04:37.917 --> 04:39.477
I am meeting with a film
04:39.958 --> 04:42.179
pitch deck woman on
04:42.259 --> 04:43.759
Thursday afternoon to help
04:43.779 --> 04:44.740
me get that going and then
04:44.800 --> 04:46.001
help me hopefully
04:46.041 --> 04:47.341
distribute it to either Netflix,
04:47.361 --> 04:48.262
History Channel.
04:48.842 --> 04:49.822
I'm working on the whole
04:50.083 --> 04:51.503
outline of how I want it to look.
04:52.564 --> 04:54.245
So that's what's been going on right now.
04:55.085 --> 04:55.825
Very good.
04:55.845 --> 04:57.186
Did anyone else in your
04:57.246 --> 04:58.467
cohort in graduate school
04:58.527 --> 04:59.947
have they turned their
04:59.987 --> 05:01.028
projects into books?
05:01.761 --> 05:02.721
Not that I can find.
05:02.781 --> 05:04.122
No, I know.
05:04.282 --> 05:04.622
Actually,
05:04.642 --> 05:05.903
now that you when you mentioned
05:05.963 --> 05:07.723
when we first met about Point Pleasant,
05:08.063 --> 05:08.844
my friend Colin,
05:08.864 --> 05:09.904
who I went to grad school with,
05:10.204 --> 05:11.405
he's a teacher at Point
05:11.445 --> 05:12.205
Pleasant High School.
05:12.225 --> 05:13.305
Very good.
05:13.626 --> 05:15.026
So a lot of them stuck with it.
05:15.066 --> 05:15.906
A lot of them didn't.
05:15.986 --> 05:16.687
So I don't know if any of
05:16.707 --> 05:17.887
them are as bald as I am
05:17.907 --> 05:19.248
because I know they loved it.
05:19.268 --> 05:19.448
I mean,
05:19.468 --> 05:20.868
I had great professors at Monmouth.
05:20.968 --> 05:22.229
I have nothing bad to say
05:22.269 --> 05:22.909
about any of them.
05:23.469 --> 05:24.230
So I don't know.
05:24.410 --> 05:25.290
Yeah.
05:25.370 --> 05:26.831
I mean, they were all so good.
05:26.851 --> 05:27.931
They'll be glad to hear that.
05:28.231 --> 05:28.631
Yeah, I mean,
05:28.651 --> 05:29.512
the professor I had for
05:29.532 --> 05:30.512
American Revolution, I mean,
05:30.973 --> 05:31.633
he was a gem.
05:31.713 --> 05:32.394
He really is.
05:32.994 --> 05:33.714
And then I'm still in
05:33.774 --> 05:35.656
contact with a lot of my professors from,
05:36.076 --> 05:37.477
I went to Ocean County
05:37.517 --> 05:38.697
College for my associates,
05:39.118 --> 05:40.538
King Ocean for my bachelor's,
05:40.598 --> 05:41.819
and then Monmouth for my master's.
05:42.179 --> 05:44.401
The history professor I had at OCC said,
05:45.261 --> 05:46.522
I'll order some copies for
05:46.542 --> 05:47.122
my history club.
05:47.162 --> 05:47.983
Come and talk about it.
05:48.543 --> 05:48.964
Very good.
05:49.324 --> 05:50.044
So I was like, okay.
05:50.244 --> 05:50.484
I said,
05:50.524 --> 05:51.725
you tell me when in the spring
05:51.765 --> 05:52.946
semester and I'll be there.
05:52.966 --> 05:54.647
Good, good.
05:56.350 --> 05:57.531
So let's talk a little bit
05:57.551 --> 05:58.793
about The Culper Spy Ring, because that's,
05:58.853 --> 05:59.133
of course,
05:59.173 --> 06:01.135
become famous with the TV show Turn.
06:01.155 --> 06:01.295
Yes.
06:01.375 --> 06:02.876
And Brian Kilmeade did a
06:02.896 --> 06:04.678
book about The Culper Spy Ring.
06:05.018 --> 06:05.398
Right.
06:06.159 --> 06:07.320
I did read Brian's book,
06:07.340 --> 06:08.401
and I did cite a little bit
06:08.441 --> 06:09.542
of his book in my book.
06:10.223 --> 06:10.643
Turn,
06:11.104 --> 06:12.625
I finally got to watch it as I was
06:12.645 --> 06:13.966
doing my research, and I was like,
06:14.146 --> 06:15.367
it is crazy just to see how
06:15.508 --> 06:17.569
everything was around where
06:17.609 --> 06:18.270
my father grew up.
06:18.310 --> 06:19.651
And he goes, oh, I know that place.
06:19.711 --> 06:20.312
I know that place.
06:20.392 --> 06:21.453
I'm like, yeah.
06:21.473 --> 06:21.553
Yeah.
06:22.608 --> 06:24.228
but it's just,
06:24.468 --> 06:26.749
it's amazing how that show
06:26.809 --> 06:27.789
that like nobody really
06:27.869 --> 06:29.190
picked up on doing a lot of
06:29.650 --> 06:31.490
research into more of what the women did.
06:31.510 --> 06:33.811
I mean, I give credit to a lot of the men,
06:33.831 --> 06:35.071
you know, my father was an air force vet,
06:35.091 --> 06:36.932
so I commend like all the soldiers and,
06:37.432 --> 06:37.832
but I'm like,
06:37.952 --> 06:39.572
there's so much more that
06:39.612 --> 06:40.412
needs to be told.
06:41.313 --> 06:42.273
That's very true.
06:42.313 --> 06:42.473
Well,
06:42.513 --> 06:43.473
we find that with everything
06:43.493 --> 06:44.653
involving the revolution,
06:44.693 --> 06:46.074
that there's a lot more people.
06:46.754 --> 06:46.834
And,
06:47.627 --> 06:48.729
And Washington had a real
06:48.769 --> 06:49.571
understanding of the
06:49.651 --> 06:51.676
importance of espionage.
06:52.237 --> 06:52.718
He did.
06:52.758 --> 06:52.939
I mean,
06:52.979 --> 06:54.102
they did call him America's
06:54.122 --> 06:55.024
greatest spy master.
06:55.084 --> 06:57.028
And he actually had somebody named, um,
06:58.655 --> 06:59.115
Oh, my goodness.
06:59.155 --> 07:00.136
His name just went out of my head.
07:00.176 --> 07:01.476
But he was originally the
07:01.596 --> 07:02.857
head of the Culper Spiring.
07:03.297 --> 07:04.678
His name was Nathaniel Socket,
07:04.758 --> 07:06.759
and he was paying him like $50.
07:06.759 --> 07:09.240
But it really wasn't that great.
07:09.340 --> 07:10.400
So he said, well, you know what?
07:10.540 --> 07:12.661
I'm not going to deal with him anymore.
07:12.761 --> 07:13.682
I'm going to let him go.
07:13.702 --> 07:16.043
And he heard about Benjamin Talmadge,
07:16.523 --> 07:18.004
who was best friends with Nathan Hale.
07:19.272 --> 07:21.173
And when he heard that they
07:21.213 --> 07:22.153
had that connection, he said,
07:22.173 --> 07:22.454
you know what?
07:22.534 --> 07:23.514
I'm going to try to bring in
07:23.854 --> 07:25.335
Talmadge to see if he can do it.
07:25.615 --> 07:26.836
Talmadge rallied some of his
07:26.916 --> 07:27.916
friends from Long Island.
07:28.496 --> 07:30.057
And that's how the Culper
07:30.077 --> 07:30.937
Spiring came to be.
07:30.978 --> 07:31.658
He got him.
07:31.998 --> 07:33.078
They knew Robert Townsend.
07:33.139 --> 07:34.559
They knew Caleb Brewster.
07:35.960 --> 07:37.461
They had Austin Rowe on Long Island.
07:37.481 --> 07:38.581
He had a bar that he
07:38.661 --> 07:39.962
overheard everything going on.
07:40.262 --> 07:41.282
Robert Townsend had a
07:41.382 --> 07:42.543
bookstore in the city.
07:42.603 --> 07:43.603
And of course, you know,
07:43.623 --> 07:44.264
they're really not going to say,
07:44.284 --> 07:45.624
but he didn't want his identity known.
07:45.644 --> 07:46.745
And I've always wondered why.
07:48.240 --> 07:50.942
That's the one thing I always wonder.
07:51.122 --> 07:51.803
You're on both sides.
07:51.863 --> 07:52.784
And there's allegations
07:52.844 --> 07:54.665
James Rivington might have been involved,
07:54.705 --> 07:56.126
might not have been.
07:57.347 --> 07:58.929
It's really interesting.
07:58.949 --> 08:01.991
And then James Fenmore Cooper, of course,
08:02.031 --> 08:03.793
had a great novel, The Spy.
08:03.893 --> 08:05.094
And it's about a guy who's
08:05.174 --> 08:07.336
really hated by his neighbors.
08:07.376 --> 08:08.316
They don't realize the
08:08.356 --> 08:09.878
service he'd done during the revolution.
08:09.898 --> 08:10.918
They thought he was a traitor,
08:10.998 --> 08:11.959
but he'd actually been
08:12.440 --> 08:13.841
performing this valuable
08:13.901 --> 08:15.162
service during the war.
08:16.023 --> 08:16.663
And so...
08:18.973 --> 08:19.773
Then Washington,
08:19.793 --> 08:21.093
when he does visit Long
08:21.234 --> 08:23.094
Island during his grand tour,
08:23.174 --> 08:24.414
makes a point of going to
08:24.454 --> 08:26.395
these places to meet with
08:26.455 --> 08:27.375
some of these folks who had
08:27.395 --> 08:28.975
been involved with the Culper spy ring,
08:29.255 --> 08:30.876
and kind of secretly still,
08:30.896 --> 08:32.836
but acknowledging their role in this.
08:35.417 --> 08:38.277
Could Washington have, well,
08:38.317 --> 08:39.598
Nathan Hale's an example of
08:39.878 --> 08:40.958
when things go wrong,
08:41.078 --> 08:42.398
he's captured and hanged.
08:43.018 --> 08:44.159
Are there others you find
08:44.179 --> 08:45.599
that get captured?
08:46.440 --> 08:47.361
was nothing that i could
08:47.481 --> 08:48.962
find and speaking of nathan
08:48.982 --> 08:49.722
hale what i found
08:49.782 --> 08:50.603
interesting when i did my
08:50.663 --> 08:51.603
research and i mentioned it
08:51.623 --> 08:52.964
in the book there were a
08:53.024 --> 08:54.685
lot of theories that nathan
08:54.705 --> 08:55.866
hale's own cousin was the
08:55.886 --> 08:56.886
reason behind his hanging
08:57.667 --> 08:59.708
that they said that nathan
08:59.728 --> 09:01.349
went to harvard his cousin
09:01.389 --> 09:03.690
went to yale and he was
09:03.770 --> 09:04.631
fighting for the british at
09:04.671 --> 09:05.451
that time but they're
09:05.511 --> 09:06.872
claiming no he had nothing
09:06.912 --> 09:08.373
to do with it and when i
09:08.413 --> 09:09.494
was doing my research
09:10.094 --> 09:11.155
It just came up all of a sudden,
09:11.175 --> 09:11.996
like right when I was at
09:12.016 --> 09:13.417
the end of my book, I kept saying,
09:13.737 --> 09:14.798
is there any more little
09:14.858 --> 09:15.939
tidbits I can add?
09:16.219 --> 09:17.520
And when I looked up Nathan Hale,
09:17.961 --> 09:18.742
supposedly there was an
09:18.882 --> 09:19.802
article from the New York
09:19.842 --> 09:20.823
Times in it from 1976.
09:20.823 --> 09:23.566
And I'm like,
09:24.186 --> 09:25.667
why is this just coming out now?
09:27.000 --> 09:28.561
where was this the entire
09:28.601 --> 09:29.622
time i was in graduate
09:29.642 --> 09:31.103
school the entire time i
09:31.143 --> 09:32.003
was writing everything
09:32.503 --> 09:34.385
right right so i always
09:34.445 --> 09:35.065
wondered but i couldn't
09:35.105 --> 09:36.186
find anything else of being
09:36.246 --> 09:38.167
hanged but i'm i'm curious
09:38.207 --> 09:39.107
if there were and they said
09:39.147 --> 09:40.308
sadly his body's never been
09:40.348 --> 09:41.629
found no one knows where it
09:41.789 --> 09:44.290
is they do have an epitaph
09:44.371 --> 09:47.272
of him in connecticut i
09:47.312 --> 09:48.153
mean who knows where that
09:48.193 --> 09:49.954
body could be who knows
09:49.994 --> 09:51.055
well it's buried somewhere
09:51.075 --> 09:52.596
in manhattan god only knows where now
09:52.596 --> 09:55.839
3.55,
09:55.839 --> 09:58.181
there's speculation whether or not
09:58.201 --> 09:59.242
this person existed.
09:59.322 --> 10:00.083
Was she a spy?
10:00.143 --> 10:00.903
Who was she?
10:00.983 --> 10:03.445
You talk about her in your book at 3.55.
10:04.145 --> 10:05.607
And who do you think she was?
10:06.928 --> 10:08.789
I think people were shocked
10:08.809 --> 10:10.110
when I said who I believe it is.
10:10.470 --> 10:12.452
And I believe it was Peggy Shippen,
10:12.592 --> 10:13.572
Benedict Arnold's wife.
10:14.273 --> 10:14.773
Interesting.
10:15.374 --> 10:15.654
Yeah.
10:16.094 --> 10:17.155
A lot of people are stunned
10:17.175 --> 10:17.916
when I say that.
10:18.436 --> 10:19.357
Why would you think that
10:19.437 --> 10:20.698
since she lived in Philadelphia?
10:20.738 --> 10:22.299
What's she doing hanging out in New York?
10:22.768 --> 10:22.988
Well,
10:23.028 --> 10:24.951
a lot of the research I did was that
10:25.532 --> 10:26.593
the one book that I read,
10:26.633 --> 10:27.514
it said that she had a
10:27.575 --> 10:29.117
degree of social prominence
10:29.217 --> 10:30.358
and she was very close with
10:30.378 --> 10:32.221
the Tories and on the Red Coast.
10:32.241 --> 10:33.102
So I was like, okay,
10:33.142 --> 10:34.264
that can help a little bit.
10:34.624 --> 10:36.587
And then Benedict Arnold
10:36.667 --> 10:38.389
fought at West Point and put
10:40.506 --> 10:41.767
there's a lot of people
10:41.807 --> 10:43.248
think I'm wrong about it, but I'm like,
10:43.968 --> 10:44.528
look at the clues.
10:44.568 --> 10:46.630
But the one thing that gave it to me,
10:46.730 --> 10:47.770
I remember reading that
10:47.790 --> 10:49.111
they said she feigned
10:49.151 --> 10:50.212
distress to Washington
10:50.232 --> 10:51.272
because after John Andre
10:51.333 --> 10:52.713
was captured and she hated him,
10:53.314 --> 10:54.895
when John Andre was captured,
10:55.295 --> 10:56.856
Washington went to go visit
10:56.876 --> 10:58.937
the oral compound and couldn't find him.
10:59.237 --> 11:01.279
But she was there going into hysterics,
11:01.579 --> 11:02.879
pretending she didn't know where he was.
11:02.960 --> 11:04.240
She obviously didn't know where he was.
11:04.961 --> 11:08.523
But the one... Well, actually, I think...
11:09.457 --> 11:11.298
Washington is already there
11:11.818 --> 11:13.798
and when Andre is captured
11:13.898 --> 11:14.759
and she's already in
11:14.799 --> 11:16.579
hysterics because her husband has left.
11:17.160 --> 11:17.400
Right.
11:17.600 --> 11:20.441
And the one journal article
11:20.461 --> 11:21.441
I found on JSTOR,
11:21.481 --> 11:22.921
the one bit that I read about her,
11:22.941 --> 11:24.722
I was like, this is what did it for me.
11:24.762 --> 11:26.443
It said Peggy Shippen was
11:26.523 --> 11:27.323
known to go through
11:27.343 --> 11:30.004
hysterics and had anxiety her whole life.
11:30.044 --> 11:30.504
So I'm like,
11:31.004 --> 11:32.564
did she have some sort of
11:32.644 --> 11:33.625
maybe the first case of
11:33.665 --> 11:34.465
mental illness on the
11:34.505 --> 11:36.505
colonies that no one knew about?
11:36.525 --> 11:37.486
I think there probably were
11:37.506 --> 11:38.666
earlier cases of mental
11:38.726 --> 11:39.546
illness in the colonies.
11:39.566 --> 11:39.846
Right.
11:39.906 --> 11:41.306
And from what I could find,
11:41.346 --> 11:42.427
I couldn't find anything of it.
11:42.467 --> 11:43.987
I'm sure there is maybe out there,
11:44.167 --> 11:46.368
but when I'm reading this, I'm like, well,
11:46.448 --> 11:47.768
and plus before that,
11:48.508 --> 11:50.089
Shippen and Washington had never met.
11:50.109 --> 11:50.149
No.
11:51.689 --> 11:53.229
So I'm like, okay, well,
11:53.249 --> 11:54.550
that could be something like, you know,
11:54.590 --> 11:55.590
he didn't really know that.
11:56.499 --> 11:56.639
Like,
11:56.679 --> 11:57.959
he didn't know that Lydia Dower was
11:57.999 --> 11:58.480
helping him.
11:58.560 --> 11:59.740
He eventually knew of Anna
11:59.760 --> 12:00.320
Strong helping him,
12:00.340 --> 12:02.101
but he didn't know that
12:02.121 --> 12:02.901
there were others.
12:03.921 --> 12:06.962
I'm sure he was a little skeptical, though,
12:06.982 --> 12:08.703
that someone who goes into
12:08.763 --> 12:10.903
hysterics is really cut out to be a spy.
12:10.923 --> 12:11.984
Right.
12:12.064 --> 12:12.304
I mean,
12:12.324 --> 12:14.284
she had a very strong knowledge of
12:14.485 --> 12:15.185
invisible ink,
12:15.225 --> 12:16.625
like the Culper Spiring did.
12:17.025 --> 12:18.106
She was known to sneak around.
12:18.146 --> 12:19.806
I mean, nobody's going to bother a woman,
12:20.206 --> 12:21.027
especially if there's, like,
12:21.067 --> 12:21.807
men around her.
12:23.287 --> 12:25.628
So I'm convinced.
12:26.966 --> 12:27.246
Okay.
12:28.206 --> 12:29.147
Who is Anna Strong?
12:29.347 --> 12:31.107
We talked about her a bit.
12:31.727 --> 12:34.548
Anna Strong was a housewife
12:34.608 --> 12:35.208
on Long Island.
12:35.268 --> 12:36.489
Her husband was fighting in the war.
12:36.509 --> 12:37.609
They had 10 children.
12:38.389 --> 12:39.710
And she had to stick around
12:39.730 --> 12:40.650
and take care of them, of course,
12:40.670 --> 12:42.030
while he was gone.
12:42.050 --> 12:44.011
And the British didn't invade her home.
12:44.131 --> 12:45.231
I don't know if it was still
12:45.271 --> 12:46.192
during the Quartering Act.
12:46.252 --> 12:47.132
I believe it was.
12:48.223 --> 12:50.005
But, you know, they just, like,
12:50.505 --> 12:51.786
ignored her as if, like, you know,
12:51.846 --> 12:52.987
she was taking care of her kids.
12:53.007 --> 12:54.548
They didn't expect her to do
12:54.628 --> 12:55.669
any sort of activity.
12:55.749 --> 12:56.990
Or when they saw her hanging
12:57.030 --> 12:58.512
the petticoats and doing laundry,
12:59.052 --> 13:01.314
that's what they thought she was doing.
13:01.334 --> 13:03.236
Because I don't think from,
13:03.316 --> 13:04.657
unless you have, like, a telescope,
13:04.697 --> 13:06.158
you could see from her
13:06.218 --> 13:07.199
house to the Long Island
13:07.239 --> 13:08.860
Sound where Caleb Brewster would sail.
13:08.880 --> 13:09.161
Mm-hmm.
13:09.975 --> 13:11.896
So how would then, I mean,
13:11.916 --> 13:12.737
it seems like you'd have to
13:12.777 --> 13:13.257
have a pretty good
13:13.277 --> 13:14.438
telescope to be out on Long
13:14.498 --> 13:15.358
Island Sound looking at
13:15.418 --> 13:16.499
this woman's laundry line.
13:17.039 --> 13:17.399
Oh, yeah.
13:18.140 --> 13:19.901
So Caleb Brewster must have
13:19.941 --> 13:22.302
had a really good viewing
13:22.342 --> 13:23.083
of her house with that
13:23.123 --> 13:25.004
telescope because it's
13:25.444 --> 13:26.205
evident that they didn't
13:26.225 --> 13:27.445
catch him or her.
13:27.465 --> 13:29.607
So they just assumed she was
13:29.627 --> 13:30.547
doing her laundry with all
13:30.567 --> 13:31.728
the petticoats that she had.
13:32.873 --> 13:33.113
Okay.
13:34.214 --> 13:37.175
And so can we just talk geographically?
13:37.215 --> 13:39.597
Where are we in Setauket in
13:39.637 --> 13:40.978
relationship to Manhattan
13:41.078 --> 13:41.858
where the British are?
13:42.338 --> 13:43.659
Setauket to Manhattan is
13:43.719 --> 13:46.140
about maybe like a 30 to 40 minute drive.
13:47.221 --> 13:48.041
But they weren't driving.
13:48.262 --> 13:49.222
But they weren't driving.
13:49.362 --> 13:50.343
So they had to do like,
13:50.703 --> 13:52.564
I'm not really sure at the
13:52.604 --> 13:54.085
time how they got there.
13:54.105 --> 13:56.086
I would assume by walking or horseback.
13:57.433 --> 13:59.075
or by boat or by boat yeah
13:59.095 --> 13:59.816
because they had like no
13:59.876 --> 14:01.998
cars back then so how cable
14:02.018 --> 14:03.039
booster was able to avoid
14:03.099 --> 14:05.661
capture was incredible but
14:05.681 --> 14:06.662
they really had nobody on
14:06.682 --> 14:08.584
the waters it was mostly on
14:08.664 --> 14:09.866
land where everybody was
14:11.047 --> 14:12.709
did any spies get captured
14:13.830 --> 14:15.251
aside from nathan hale i
14:15.311 --> 14:16.652
couldn't find anybody that did
14:18.081 --> 14:19.781
I mean, I always wondered, God forbid,
14:19.861 --> 14:21.522
what would have happened to them if, like,
14:21.542 --> 14:22.942
say, Lydia Dower in her closet,
14:22.962 --> 14:23.942
if she made noise,
14:24.602 --> 14:25.282
that would have been it.
14:26.643 --> 14:27.663
And it was easy to, like,
14:27.723 --> 14:28.503
fool the British with the
14:28.543 --> 14:29.563
laundry line because they
14:29.603 --> 14:30.723
knew she had 10 kids.
14:30.823 --> 14:32.024
So they're like, okay, well,
14:32.064 --> 14:34.104
we're not going to question anything.
14:34.124 --> 14:34.824
She's got a lot of kids.
14:34.844 --> 14:35.824
She's got a lot of laundry.
14:36.444 --> 14:36.884
Makes sense.
14:37.725 --> 14:39.525
And didn't Anna Strong's
14:39.585 --> 14:40.705
husband get captured?
14:40.745 --> 14:42.285
And wasn't he imprisoned on
14:43.086 --> 14:44.366
one of the ships in New York Harbor,
14:44.386 --> 14:45.406
the Jersey, I think it was?
14:45.831 --> 14:46.631
There were a lot of
14:46.671 --> 14:48.532
different theories about that.
14:48.692 --> 14:50.012
Some say that there weren't.
14:50.132 --> 14:51.192
Others say that they weren't.
14:51.233 --> 14:53.093
Then they said that 355 was
14:53.133 --> 14:54.753
captured and gave birth,
14:54.773 --> 14:56.994
but back to Brian Kilmeade,
14:57.254 --> 14:58.174
he said he couldn't find
14:58.234 --> 15:00.375
anything on that because
15:00.415 --> 15:02.936
they said that she would bring him dinner,
15:02.956 --> 15:03.836
but they said women were
15:03.876 --> 15:04.876
not allowed on the ships.
15:06.397 --> 15:06.797
Interesting.
15:06.817 --> 15:08.057
So in Brian Kilmeade's book,
15:08.077 --> 15:09.238
from the research I did,
15:09.258 --> 15:10.678
he said that that can't be true.
15:12.153 --> 15:12.413
Okay,
15:12.874 --> 15:14.655
so there are no women allowed on the
15:14.695 --> 15:14.896
ships,
15:14.936 --> 15:16.217
but yet there's this myth that
15:16.337 --> 15:18.139
there is this woman, mystical spy,
15:18.159 --> 15:19.440
who's actually giving birth.
15:19.500 --> 15:19.800
Yeah,
15:19.960 --> 15:21.302
they said that there was a myth that
15:21.322 --> 15:22.403
a woman was captured and
15:22.443 --> 15:23.824
that she was giving birth to either,
15:23.844 --> 15:25.425
I think it was like Robert
15:25.466 --> 15:27.748
Townsend's child, but they said no,
15:27.808 --> 15:28.749
that women were not allowed
15:28.789 --> 15:29.689
on those prison ships.
15:30.811 --> 15:31.831
And who is Robert Townsend
15:31.892 --> 15:33.253
and how has he caught up in all of this?
15:33.641 --> 15:35.142
robert townsend had a home
15:35.322 --> 15:36.322
on long island in oyster
15:36.342 --> 15:37.283
bay i've actually visited
15:37.303 --> 15:38.063
there right before the
15:38.083 --> 15:40.164
pandemic hit and he also
15:40.204 --> 15:41.645
had a shop in manhattan
15:41.665 --> 15:42.565
that he owned i think it
15:42.605 --> 15:43.526
was a bookstore but i could
15:43.566 --> 15:45.107
be wrong on that one and
15:45.267 --> 15:46.267
for some reason i don't
15:46.287 --> 15:47.208
know why but he never
15:47.268 --> 15:48.408
wanted his identity known
15:49.589 --> 15:51.510
he never wanted if he's a
15:51.530 --> 15:52.510
spy why would he want his
15:52.590 --> 15:53.491
identity right and there
15:53.511 --> 15:54.851
were a lot of rumors saying
15:54.871 --> 15:56.832
that he was in love with
15:56.832 --> 15:58.073
355 but no one could ever
15:58.113 --> 15:58.773
really prove that
16:00.365 --> 16:00.606
I said,
16:00.626 --> 16:01.909
but was he in love with her or was
16:01.929 --> 16:02.992
he in love with what she did?
16:03.373 --> 16:04.616
Because he didn't want to be known.
16:04.636 --> 16:05.839
Okay.
16:06.969 --> 16:07.930
If in fact, I mean,
16:08.050 --> 16:10.252
Anna Strong's another candidate for 355,
16:10.252 --> 16:10.872
but there's also
16:10.932 --> 16:12.233
speculation that there
16:12.273 --> 16:13.034
might not have been a 355.
16:13.034 --> 16:14.054
Right.
16:14.335 --> 16:15.776
One letter from 1779 that
16:16.376 --> 16:17.537
mentions a lady 355.
16:17.537 --> 16:18.037
Right.
16:18.118 --> 16:20.960
Because when I went to
16:20.980 --> 16:21.960
George Washington's Mount
16:22.000 --> 16:23.361
Vernon and looked at like the code book,
16:23.401 --> 16:26.824
it said 355 means lady agent, agent lady.
16:27.344 --> 16:28.425
So they said it could be
16:28.485 --> 16:29.946
somebody who didn't exist.
16:30.027 --> 16:30.947
It could just be somebody
16:31.227 --> 16:32.128
who helped them out.
16:32.488 --> 16:33.849
Or like, you know, when I went to...
16:34.950 --> 16:35.050
Um,
16:35.150 --> 16:36.711
three village and needs to talk at the
16:36.751 --> 16:37.752
museum that's there now.
16:38.092 --> 16:40.393
And they said it could just be anything.
16:41.693 --> 16:42.534
They said it doesn't have to
16:42.614 --> 16:43.154
mean anything.
16:43.214 --> 16:44.435
It could just mean that they
16:44.455 --> 16:46.156
said Anna strong had no code name.
16:46.376 --> 16:47.056
So she wasn't really
16:47.176 --> 16:48.597
technically formally involved.
16:48.917 --> 16:50.498
I'm not really sure how they all met her,
16:51.758 --> 16:53.479
but she still did help in a lot of ways.
16:53.539 --> 16:55.760
I mean, I mean,
16:55.800 --> 16:56.381
if she didn't have that
16:56.421 --> 16:58.001
laundry line with the code numbers,
16:58.942 --> 17:00.243
Brewster wouldn't have known what to do.
17:00.263 --> 17:01.123
Right.
17:01.826 --> 17:04.007
I wonder, Ali, if we can just talk a bit.
17:04.048 --> 17:06.529
We're talking with Ali Riley,
17:06.609 --> 17:08.290
who has written a book, She Spies,
17:08.370 --> 17:09.611
about women spies in the
17:09.631 --> 17:11.693
revolution and is working
17:11.753 --> 17:13.394
now on a feature film about this.
17:13.694 --> 17:14.434
And I wonder if we could
17:14.454 --> 17:15.255
just talk a little bit
17:15.295 --> 17:16.956
about how spycraft worked
17:16.996 --> 17:18.597
at the time of the revolution.
17:18.677 --> 17:19.678
We may have a certain image
17:19.738 --> 17:22.760
of people with secret codes and so on.
17:23.320 --> 17:26.582
How would they gather information?
17:26.662 --> 17:27.563
How would they then get it
17:27.623 --> 17:28.744
to the other side?
17:29.738 --> 17:30.578
Can you just talk a little
17:30.599 --> 17:31.579
bit about the techniques
17:31.639 --> 17:32.520
people might have had?
17:32.540 --> 17:34.361
A lot of them did invisible ink.
17:34.821 --> 17:36.522
When I went to the museum in
17:36.582 --> 17:37.142
East of Target,
17:37.162 --> 17:37.963
they were teaching us how
17:38.003 --> 17:38.923
to write an invisible ink
17:38.943 --> 17:39.804
like with lemon juice.
17:40.604 --> 17:41.505
And that was like a lot of it.
17:41.525 --> 17:42.786
I'm not sure how exactly
17:42.846 --> 17:45.067
they were able to read the letters,
17:45.187 --> 17:46.027
but there was like a lot of
17:46.067 --> 17:46.868
invisible ink.
17:46.948 --> 17:48.929
I think you'd hold it up to
17:48.969 --> 17:50.130
a flame and then that would
17:50.150 --> 17:51.350
show the truth.
17:51.511 --> 17:52.691
Yeah, I think that's what we did.
17:52.711 --> 17:53.212
I think they had like
17:53.252 --> 17:54.312
candles lit and then they
17:54.352 --> 17:55.173
showed us what to do.
17:55.253 --> 17:57.374
And then we kind of waved it
17:57.414 --> 17:58.475
around the candle flame.
17:59.715 --> 18:01.036
But they did like a lot of codes.
18:01.056 --> 18:03.078
They wrote in secret numbers and letters.
18:03.158 --> 18:04.939
And like I said,
18:04.959 --> 18:06.060
the other part of the spy craft,
18:06.080 --> 18:06.380
like I said,
18:06.420 --> 18:07.961
with the laundry line or
18:08.341 --> 18:10.422
sometimes your ears are your best tool.
18:11.903 --> 18:13.304
So that would then require you, though,
18:13.344 --> 18:14.465
then to get through the
18:14.545 --> 18:16.707
enemy lines to report this.
18:16.727 --> 18:18.408
So the British are occupying New York.
18:18.448 --> 18:20.389
We have to get information from New York.
18:21.269 --> 18:23.273
somehow out of new york and
18:23.353 --> 18:25.376
then somehow to um
18:26.037 --> 18:27.720
washington's army without
18:27.780 --> 18:28.842
anyone on either on the
18:28.862 --> 18:29.904
other side knowing this is
18:29.964 --> 18:32.188
what we're doing right i
18:32.248 --> 18:35.073
mean it's i mean i'm not really sure um
18:37.409 --> 18:39.671
exactly how some of them used it.
18:39.731 --> 18:39.971
I mean,
18:40.011 --> 18:41.753
like most of it really wasn't
18:42.173 --> 18:42.814
invisible ink.
18:42.854 --> 18:43.995
I think until the Culper spy
18:44.015 --> 18:44.595
ring was swarmed.
18:44.655 --> 18:46.196
Cause like, like I said,
18:46.276 --> 18:47.277
Sarah Fulton during the
18:47.297 --> 18:49.279
Boston tea party really didn't use any,
18:49.699 --> 18:50.680
she just snuck around with
18:50.720 --> 18:51.941
her sister and her friends.
18:52.482 --> 18:54.443
And then yours are your best, best weapon.
18:54.844 --> 18:55.144
Right.
18:55.284 --> 18:55.604
I mean,
18:56.685 --> 18:59.248
I think James Jay, I think,
18:59.328 --> 19:00.029
was somehow involved.
19:00.049 --> 19:01.250
He was John Jay's brother,
19:01.290 --> 19:02.551
and he developed a recipe
19:02.571 --> 19:03.833
for invisible ink that they
19:03.873 --> 19:05.434
were using in the Culper spy ring.
19:05.695 --> 19:06.996
Right, and that, I think,
19:07.036 --> 19:08.618
was a lot of big help because, like,
19:08.638 --> 19:08.918
you know,
19:09.318 --> 19:10.760
and I'm not exactly sure what
19:10.800 --> 19:11.581
was on the doc.
19:11.661 --> 19:12.922
I think there was a... I
19:12.962 --> 19:13.823
went to the New York State
19:13.863 --> 19:15.064
Museum back in October,
19:15.364 --> 19:16.946
and there was a letter in full...
19:18.007 --> 19:19.248
penmanship or when they used
19:19.268 --> 19:20.508
to feather pens back then
19:20.528 --> 19:23.169
um of the documents that
19:23.209 --> 19:24.170
john andre had when he was
19:24.210 --> 19:25.130
captured that was not an
19:25.170 --> 19:26.471
invisible link and i think
19:26.531 --> 19:27.671
also that's what did him in
19:28.552 --> 19:29.552
that was not an invisible
19:29.572 --> 19:30.372
link because i have a
19:30.413 --> 19:31.393
picture of the note that
19:31.433 --> 19:32.613
was written i'm like yeah
19:32.633 --> 19:33.474
that's not invisible link
19:33.574 --> 19:34.974
that's like say if we were
19:35.015 --> 19:35.835
using a pen today
19:36.627 --> 19:37.308
Sure, sure.
19:38.048 --> 19:39.289
And the guys who captured
19:39.469 --> 19:40.750
Andre didn't know how to read,
19:40.790 --> 19:41.611
so they had to send these
19:41.671 --> 19:42.972
messages on to someone else.
19:43.032 --> 19:43.292
Yeah.
19:43.492 --> 19:44.493
They also, I understand,
19:44.533 --> 19:46.094
would hide things in buttons.
19:46.475 --> 19:47.395
But Andre's were actually
19:47.435 --> 19:48.276
hidden in his boot.
19:48.756 --> 19:49.077
Right.
19:49.537 --> 19:51.078
And so when they had made him strip,
19:51.118 --> 19:52.499
they found these documents
19:52.539 --> 19:54.601
hidden in a false heel in his boot,
19:54.821 --> 19:56.322
which was what did him in.
19:56.342 --> 19:58.144
I definitely think that's what did him in.
19:58.164 --> 20:00.225
I mean, they had to get creative.
20:01.506 --> 20:04.148
Because if you didn't, you're done.
20:04.388 --> 20:06.170
You see what happened with Nathan Hale.
20:06.210 --> 20:06.370
Yeah.
20:06.883 --> 20:07.243
Right.
20:08.604 --> 20:09.465
And Nathan Hale,
20:09.805 --> 20:10.626
the problem with Nathan
20:10.646 --> 20:11.846
Hale was he brought his
20:11.987 --> 20:13.127
actual birth certificate
20:13.187 --> 20:14.568
with him when he went from
20:14.608 --> 20:15.369
Connecticut to New York.
20:15.389 --> 20:17.090
I'm like, that's what your problem was.
20:17.830 --> 20:18.531
Right, right.
20:19.171 --> 20:21.273
I know the Clements Library
20:21.553 --> 20:24.295
out in Michigan has a mask
20:24.375 --> 20:25.516
letter that is you pulled
20:25.576 --> 20:26.857
something over the document
20:26.877 --> 20:28.217
and then that reveals what
20:28.338 --> 20:29.578
the... Do you find anyone
20:29.719 --> 20:30.479
using that kind of
20:30.519 --> 20:31.480
technique where you have...
20:32.506 --> 20:33.487
the person on the other side
20:33.507 --> 20:34.848
has the same kind of frame
20:34.908 --> 20:36.869
they can use to eke out
20:36.889 --> 20:37.830
what the letters are.
20:38.490 --> 20:40.352
No, I wasn't able to get out to Michigan.
20:40.392 --> 20:42.533
I did a lot of like their archives online.
20:42.593 --> 20:44.254
Cause right when I started this,
20:44.314 --> 20:45.956
this was like right before COVID hit.
20:45.976 --> 20:47.356
So I was trying to do all around here.
20:47.397 --> 20:48.257
I did Mount Vernon.
20:48.537 --> 20:49.878
I did a bunch of long Island.
20:50.118 --> 20:50.999
I went to Philly.
20:51.079 --> 20:52.520
So it was kind of hard to get,
20:52.940 --> 20:54.662
but I did do a lot of their online work.
20:55.162 --> 20:56.503
I would love to go see that though.
20:57.424 --> 20:58.704
Did you go to the spy museum
20:58.745 --> 20:59.325
in Washington?
20:59.716 --> 21:00.196
I did.
21:00.296 --> 21:02.557
They were not happy with my research.
21:03.457 --> 21:03.917
Why is that?
21:04.617 --> 21:05.858
They don't believe who I
21:05.898 --> 21:07.258
believe agent three 55 is.
21:07.278 --> 21:08.178
They have a, when you,
21:08.298 --> 21:09.159
when you go to the second
21:09.199 --> 21:10.619
floor and right off the elevator,
21:10.959 --> 21:12.099
it's the whole culprits firing.
21:12.139 --> 21:13.620
I have the pictures and they
21:13.700 --> 21:14.720
immediately say,
21:14.960 --> 21:16.460
and as strong as three 55,
21:16.460 --> 21:17.981
they will not budge on.
21:18.001 --> 21:18.401
And I'm like,
21:19.713 --> 21:20.433
I wrote the book.
21:20.813 --> 21:22.954
I did my research on it.
21:23.154 --> 21:24.134
I did go there.
21:24.454 --> 21:25.674
I went during the pandemic
21:25.774 --> 21:27.955
once museums were open safely again.
21:28.015 --> 21:29.395
So my parents and I took a
21:29.435 --> 21:30.055
drive down there.
21:30.135 --> 21:31.355
They don't want to listen to me.
21:32.315 --> 21:33.736
I was in an email with the director.
21:33.836 --> 21:34.876
I was in an email with all I'm saying.
21:34.896 --> 21:35.796
I would love to do a talk
21:35.816 --> 21:36.696
when the book comes out.
21:36.896 --> 21:37.857
They don't want to budge.
21:39.037 --> 21:40.197
Because it's such a nice museum.
21:40.257 --> 21:40.857
It really is.
21:40.877 --> 21:42.717
It was my first time there.
21:44.038 --> 21:45.198
But they just don't want to budge.
21:46.837 --> 21:46.977
Well,
21:46.997 --> 21:48.318
I think your first time visiting a
21:48.338 --> 21:49.318
museum probably is not the
21:49.338 --> 21:50.919
best time to tell them they're wrong.
21:53.160 --> 21:53.340
Yeah,
21:53.380 --> 21:54.821
like when I went to Three Village on
21:54.861 --> 21:57.282
Long Island, the woman, she was nice.
21:57.582 --> 21:58.762
But the problem with her was
21:58.802 --> 22:00.923
that she didn't want to go by facts.
22:01.103 --> 22:03.304
She just wanted to tell you what she knew.
22:03.985 --> 22:04.785
And she kept saying, well,
22:04.805 --> 22:05.585
what does our master's
22:05.605 --> 22:06.186
student think of this?
22:06.206 --> 22:07.626
I'm like, no offense,
22:07.646 --> 22:09.107
but you're wrong on a lot of stuff.
22:09.787 --> 22:11.448
I said, I'm going for the degree.
22:11.568 --> 22:12.568
I've studied this since I was 13.
22:14.065 --> 22:16.526
You're giving your own opinion.
22:16.586 --> 22:18.147
You're not giving what actually happened.
22:18.327 --> 22:19.087
Like they have a picture of
22:19.127 --> 22:20.047
Benjamin Franklin there.
22:20.087 --> 22:21.228
And I'm like, look,
22:21.348 --> 22:22.488
I respect Benjamin Franklin
22:22.508 --> 22:23.209
as a founding father,
22:23.229 --> 22:24.469
but he had nothing to do with this.
22:24.849 --> 22:26.070
Why do you have this picture in here?
22:26.310 --> 22:27.390
And she's going on and on.
22:27.410 --> 22:29.291
And I'm like, that never happened.
22:29.931 --> 22:33.233
Benjamin Franklin had
22:33.393 --> 22:34.633
nothing to do with the spyro.
22:34.673 --> 22:35.834
He was ambassador to France.
22:37.057 --> 22:37.638
I get that.
22:38.258 --> 22:39.499
That little bit you had there, I said,
22:39.519 --> 22:40.240
that part's right.
22:41.060 --> 22:42.201
But the rest of it, I'm like,
22:42.742 --> 22:44.903
he had nothing to do with this.
22:45.724 --> 22:45.984
Yes,
22:46.024 --> 22:47.445
he was ambassador to France at this time.
22:47.565 --> 22:48.206
I know that.
22:48.526 --> 22:49.387
That you're right on.
22:49.447 --> 22:50.608
The rest of it, you're not.
22:51.809 --> 22:53.770
She did not want to believe me.
22:53.790 --> 22:54.631
My mother's with me and
22:54.651 --> 22:55.492
she's calling me now.
22:55.512 --> 22:56.433
She's like, don't yell.
22:56.713 --> 22:57.834
I'm like, I'm going to yell.
22:58.674 --> 22:59.855
I'm going to yell because he
22:59.895 --> 23:00.996
had nothing to do with it.
23:01.857 --> 23:02.858
As soon as we got in the car,
23:02.878 --> 23:04.379
I started ranting to her and I'm like,
23:05.899 --> 23:06.459
And she's like, yeah.
23:06.499 --> 23:07.319
She said she would rather
23:07.359 --> 23:09.240
give you her opinion rather
23:09.280 --> 23:10.380
than what actually happened.
23:10.981 --> 23:11.401
And she said,
23:11.841 --> 23:13.301
what lies is she telling kids
23:13.321 --> 23:14.222
who want to learn history?
23:14.262 --> 23:16.142
She said, kids visit here all the time.
23:16.242 --> 23:17.483
What is she telling these poor kids?
23:17.503 --> 23:19.483
Like my niece, my 10-year-old niece,
23:19.503 --> 23:19.744
she goes,
23:19.864 --> 23:21.344
I want to do a history day like you do.
23:21.444 --> 23:22.885
I want to get involved in a couple years.
23:23.305 --> 23:23.805
And I was like, yeah,
23:23.825 --> 23:24.545
but I'm going to tell you
23:24.565 --> 23:25.205
the right stuff.
23:25.866 --> 23:26.966
I'm not going to tell you that stuff.
23:28.840 --> 23:31.642
I know that we do see other
23:31.822 --> 23:33.584
places where we have these
23:33.684 --> 23:35.205
espionage networks working
23:35.245 --> 23:36.025
in one way or another.
23:36.065 --> 23:37.246
The culprit spy rings become
23:37.306 --> 23:39.728
famous for a lot of good reasons.
23:39.788 --> 23:41.029
I know here in Massachusetts,
23:41.109 --> 23:41.990
in Marshfield,
23:42.110 --> 23:44.432
that someone said actually
23:44.452 --> 23:46.033
people of color acted as
23:46.093 --> 23:48.635
spies there because, again, as with women,
23:48.655 --> 23:49.275
they're able to pass
23:49.315 --> 23:50.076
through lines without
23:50.116 --> 23:51.697
people suspecting anything.
23:51.757 --> 23:53.198
They have this guy or
23:53.398 --> 23:55.019
something else that is there for a reason,
23:55.080 --> 23:56.240
just like Anna Strong is
23:56.280 --> 23:57.421
going to buy someone's
23:57.461 --> 23:58.322
going to buy flour.
23:58.462 --> 23:59.983
and these folks are going to
24:00.023 --> 24:00.783
do other things.
24:01.203 --> 24:02.203
So that might actually be an
24:02.263 --> 24:03.864
advantage for women to be
24:04.004 --> 24:06.525
operating as spies because
24:06.545 --> 24:07.825
they're under the radar.
24:08.425 --> 24:08.645
Right,
24:08.685 --> 24:10.426
and it led the way to women in the
24:10.466 --> 24:11.406
Civil War too.
24:12.747 --> 24:13.267
Yeah.
24:13.787 --> 24:14.687
There were some women in the
24:14.747 --> 24:15.588
Civil War that did,
24:15.608 --> 24:16.568
like there was Belle Boyd
24:16.608 --> 24:17.348
and a couple others.
24:17.428 --> 24:18.388
And I was thinking about
24:18.448 --> 24:20.449
maybe either doing a sequel
24:20.489 --> 24:23.150
to that or just doing by
24:23.210 --> 24:24.931
itself on maybe female
24:24.951 --> 24:25.911
spies in the Civil War.
24:27.025 --> 24:29.007
There's certainly a great topic.
24:29.167 --> 24:29.587
And, you know,
24:29.627 --> 24:31.009
you can actually continue on
24:31.069 --> 24:33.811
into the 20th century, 21st century.
24:35.352 --> 24:37.774
And so we're talking with Allie Riley,
24:37.835 --> 24:39.616
who is an historian and
24:39.676 --> 24:40.997
filmmaker and has been
24:41.057 --> 24:42.859
doing work on female spies
24:42.919 --> 24:43.600
in the revolution.
24:43.620 --> 24:45.221
Her book is She Spies Women
24:45.241 --> 24:46.582
in the American Revolution.
24:47.103 --> 24:47.203
Now,
24:47.223 --> 24:48.324
did you find any in the southern
24:48.364 --> 24:48.844
colonies?
24:48.884 --> 24:50.546
Did your gaze go that far or
24:50.586 --> 24:51.867
were you focused more on
24:52.027 --> 24:53.068
metropolitan New York?
24:53.422 --> 24:54.744
While I did focus up here on
24:54.764 --> 24:55.304
the East Coast,
24:55.344 --> 24:56.505
there was one that I found.
24:56.545 --> 24:57.827
Her name was Emily Geiger,
24:58.087 --> 25:01.611
and she was a young teenager, about 17.
25:01.611 --> 25:02.832
And she had to bring a
25:02.892 --> 25:04.394
message to Nathaniel Green,
25:04.634 --> 25:06.296
but she got caught in the crossfire.
25:06.616 --> 25:08.278
So what she did was, I thought, you know,
25:08.638 --> 25:09.779
if I was 17 and doing that,
25:09.839 --> 25:10.720
I'd be panicking.
25:10.780 --> 25:12.142
I'd be like, I'm going to die.
25:12.162 --> 25:12.502
They're going to...
25:13.283 --> 25:15.384
But what she did was that the note she had,
25:15.864 --> 25:17.565
she ripped it up and ate it,
25:17.825 --> 25:19.306
but she memorized the message.
25:19.726 --> 25:21.026
So then when Nathaniel
25:21.066 --> 25:23.107
Green's cohorts checked her, they're like,
25:23.387 --> 25:24.248
well, there's nothing on her.
25:24.288 --> 25:25.348
We got nothing to hold her on.
25:25.688 --> 25:27.229
She made the excuse that her
25:27.329 --> 25:28.950
friend had given birth and
25:28.990 --> 25:29.670
that she was going to go
25:29.710 --> 25:32.031
meet her and the baby, when in reality,
25:32.151 --> 25:33.752
she went to Nathaniel Green's camp.
25:34.730 --> 25:35.610
and brought the message.
25:36.311 --> 25:38.791
And I thought 17 years old, I mean,
25:39.232 --> 25:40.452
she could have lost her
25:40.492 --> 25:41.352
life and she thought of the
25:41.392 --> 25:42.413
most ingenious thing she
25:42.453 --> 25:44.654
could think of was just to eat the note,
25:44.734 --> 25:45.574
but memorize it.
25:45.654 --> 25:47.495
And she did, and it saved her life.
25:48.615 --> 25:49.895
And probably saved Greene
25:49.955 --> 25:51.316
from whatever the British were planning.
25:51.621 --> 25:52.241
Exactly.
25:52.521 --> 25:52.741
I mean,
25:52.761 --> 25:54.742
that was so incredible that she did that.
25:54.842 --> 25:55.682
There was nothing else
25:55.802 --> 25:57.382
south-wise I could find as much.
25:58.182 --> 25:59.702
But I mean, I found Anne Bailey.
25:59.762 --> 26:00.943
She was in West Virginia.
26:01.263 --> 26:02.203
Her husband was dealing with
26:02.243 --> 26:05.663
Lord Dunmore in 1774.
26:05.663 --> 26:07.084
So she did some spying of
26:07.124 --> 26:07.684
her own out there.
26:07.704 --> 26:08.524
She didn't do much.
26:09.024 --> 26:09.684
Also in New York,
26:09.724 --> 26:10.644
there was Anne Bates who
26:10.684 --> 26:11.484
worked with the British.
26:13.185 --> 26:14.245
And she pretended to be a
26:14.325 --> 26:15.545
peddler in White Plains.
26:15.645 --> 26:16.465
And she actually got away
26:16.505 --> 26:17.545
with it three different times.
26:18.546 --> 26:20.046
Because like I said, if you're a woman,
26:20.086 --> 26:20.926
you're not going to be caught.
26:21.468 --> 26:22.409
So there are also women
26:22.429 --> 26:23.749
spying for the British
26:23.809 --> 26:24.870
against the Americans.
26:25.130 --> 26:26.391
There was Anne Bates.
26:26.591 --> 26:27.632
And, of course, Peggy Shippen,
26:27.672 --> 26:28.132
as we all know,
26:28.152 --> 26:29.853
because of who her husband was.
26:29.953 --> 26:31.134
But, yeah, I liked Anne Bates.
26:31.174 --> 26:31.934
I just couldn't believe that
26:31.974 --> 26:32.815
she was able to pull it off
26:32.835 --> 26:33.575
three different times.
26:34.256 --> 26:36.037
And what happens to her after the war?
26:36.837 --> 26:38.098
They said her husband,
26:38.338 --> 26:40.179
after the Battle of Charleston,
26:40.199 --> 26:41.460
he just decides to leave
26:42.060 --> 26:42.861
the war for good.
26:42.921 --> 26:44.902
And just they really live a quiet life.
26:46.468 --> 26:47.489
yeah they didn't really do
26:47.529 --> 26:48.310
much they said like you
26:48.350 --> 26:49.451
know that was all she felt
26:49.491 --> 26:50.852
that she needed to do the
26:50.952 --> 26:52.694
one thing i got was i put
26:52.714 --> 26:54.075
it in the book that an
26:54.175 --> 26:55.176
article i found that they
26:55.236 --> 26:56.897
called anne bates the most
26:56.977 --> 26:57.938
powerful spy of the
26:57.998 --> 27:00.540
revolution i'm like not in
27:00.580 --> 27:01.922
my opinion though i was
27:01.942 --> 27:02.822
like it's brave that she
27:02.842 --> 27:03.623
did it three different
27:03.663 --> 27:04.664
times and of course being a
27:04.684 --> 27:05.345
woman she wouldn't get
27:05.385 --> 27:07.386
caught but to call her the
27:07.426 --> 27:09.528
most powerful that's a bit
27:09.568 --> 27:11.130
of a stretch to me who
27:11.170 --> 27:12.371
would you say is the most powerful
27:13.061 --> 27:14.322
Well, definitely, of course,
27:14.382 --> 27:16.724
Agent 355 for what she did,
27:16.744 --> 27:18.125
but also the fact that
27:18.385 --> 27:21.207
Lydia and Anna both had
27:21.287 --> 27:23.629
spies in their houses and
27:23.669 --> 27:24.650
that fact that they were
27:24.710 --> 27:25.391
able to get away with
27:25.531 --> 27:26.291
everything they did with
27:26.311 --> 27:27.232
the British literally being
27:27.592 --> 27:30.054
behind their backs in their own homes.
27:30.615 --> 27:30.735
Mm-hmm.
27:31.255 --> 27:31.415
I mean,
27:31.435 --> 27:33.097
the fact that Lydia Dow was able to
27:33.177 --> 27:34.317
write down everything she
27:34.377 --> 27:37.240
heard behind her closet and
27:37.320 --> 27:39.662
able to sneak out, give her son the note,
27:40.462 --> 27:41.303
and then they all flee
27:41.363 --> 27:43.805
White Marsh and the British were stunned.
27:44.225 --> 27:45.446
And they said, where'd everybody go?
27:45.466 --> 27:47.848
And little did they know
27:47.948 --> 27:49.189
that it was her the whole time.
27:49.209 --> 27:50.370
Interesting.
27:50.610 --> 27:51.751
I mean, it amazes me.
27:52.803 --> 27:52.983
Well,
27:53.023 --> 27:55.445
Bates is given credit for influencing
27:55.505 --> 27:57.186
General Clinton to send the
27:57.246 --> 27:58.407
British fleet to support
27:58.487 --> 27:59.828
Newport when Sullivan and
27:59.848 --> 28:01.149
the Comte de Grasse were there.
28:01.189 --> 28:02.290
So that's actually a big move.
28:02.330 --> 28:03.951
It helps the British hold on to Newport.
28:04.732 --> 28:05.052
Right.
28:05.812 --> 28:06.913
And she was given a pension.
28:06.953 --> 28:07.494
She was.
28:08.134 --> 28:08.454
Yeah.
28:09.155 --> 28:10.836
But I mean, it is amazing.
28:10.996 --> 28:12.557
Do you find that any of the
28:12.577 --> 28:13.498
American women you've been
28:13.518 --> 28:14.759
looking at got pensions or
28:14.779 --> 28:15.419
got some kind of a
28:15.479 --> 28:16.660
recognition for their work?
28:17.122 --> 28:18.602
Aside from George Washington
28:18.642 --> 28:19.603
giving them the letters,
28:19.643 --> 28:20.823
like thanking them for what they did,
28:20.943 --> 28:21.863
I couldn't find anywhere
28:21.883 --> 28:22.784
where they got any money,
28:22.824 --> 28:24.144
which kind of stunk.
28:25.184 --> 28:25.544
I mean,
28:25.564 --> 28:27.505
to think that you did so much to
28:27.565 --> 28:29.506
help them not be wiped out,
28:30.166 --> 28:32.466
especially Lydia Dower and Anna Strong.
28:32.487 --> 28:35.687
I'm like, you know, they saved your lives.
28:35.747 --> 28:36.848
They saved a complete
28:37.248 --> 28:38.908
wipeout and the revolution
28:39.389 --> 28:40.849
could have ended sooner than we thought.
28:42.028 --> 28:42.469
That's true.
28:42.889 --> 28:43.831
I mean, on the other hand,
28:43.971 --> 28:44.512
on the other hand,
28:44.572 --> 28:45.713
one of the big problems was
28:45.793 --> 28:47.956
an inability to pay soldiers.
28:48.217 --> 28:48.898
And that's true.
28:48.918 --> 28:50.320
Like they had like the beer rations.
28:50.340 --> 28:51.021
They had the food rack.
28:51.061 --> 28:51.241
I mean,
28:51.261 --> 28:52.743
like think of Valley Forge winters.
28:53.084 --> 28:53.324
Right.
28:53.424 --> 28:53.705
Sure.
28:53.985 --> 28:54.225
Sure.
28:54.806 --> 28:55.147
So.
28:55.247 --> 28:56.549
And so.
28:57.365 --> 28:59.026
We've been talking with Allie Riley,
28:59.126 --> 29:02.407
who is a writer, filmmaker and historian,
29:02.767 --> 29:03.928
author of She Spies.
29:04.268 --> 29:04.608
By the way,
29:04.708 --> 29:06.809
you also cover the New York
29:06.869 --> 29:09.790
Rangers for a sports is
29:09.830 --> 29:11.310
told by a girl podcast.
29:11.610 --> 29:12.751
My hockey team for life.
29:13.451 --> 29:13.851
I do.
29:14.512 --> 29:15.692
We won't hold it against you.
29:16.972 --> 29:17.293
I know.
29:17.373 --> 29:17.733
I mean,
29:17.913 --> 29:18.813
my mother and I were watching the
29:18.833 --> 29:19.533
Bruins last night.
29:19.573 --> 29:19.894
I know.
29:21.334 --> 29:21.714
I mean,
29:21.814 --> 29:24.175
my I've been even before my
29:24.215 --> 29:25.095
mother's last game.
29:25.135 --> 29:26.316
She was three months pregnant with me.
29:27.259 --> 29:28.482
I have been trying to get
29:28.522 --> 29:29.264
her to go back because this
29:29.304 --> 29:30.928
year is 30 years since their cup.
29:31.329 --> 29:31.549
I am 30.
29:31.730 --> 29:32.952
I want it again.
29:32.972 --> 29:34.235
It hurts.
29:35.851 --> 29:38.133
Well, good luck with that.
29:38.153 --> 29:39.274
I can only hope.
29:39.414 --> 29:40.054
I mean, you know,
29:40.514 --> 29:41.535
I go to a few games a year.
29:41.575 --> 29:43.417
My father gets Veterans
29:43.457 --> 29:44.697
Affairs discount on tickets.
29:44.717 --> 29:46.199
So, like, we go a few times a year.
29:46.239 --> 29:47.680
And I'm like, I need it.
29:47.940 --> 29:48.640
I need that cup.
29:48.760 --> 29:49.901
I mean, like, the last cup,
29:50.081 --> 29:51.082
I was nine months old.
29:51.923 --> 29:53.804
June of 94, I was nine months old.
29:53.824 --> 29:54.184
And I'm like,
29:54.425 --> 29:55.645
there's a big silver shiny thing.
29:55.665 --> 29:56.646
And I don't know what that
29:56.746 --> 29:57.787
is at nine months.
29:58.447 --> 29:59.568
So, every time they re-air it,
29:59.628 --> 30:00.789
we watch it all the time.
30:00.809 --> 30:01.750
Okay.
30:02.210 --> 30:02.550
I miss it.
30:03.331 --> 30:04.732
You'll come up to Boston in
30:04.772 --> 30:05.592
June and we'll give you a
30:05.632 --> 30:06.953
glance at the cup.
30:08.233 --> 30:08.494
I did.
30:08.554 --> 30:09.974
I got to see the cup.
30:10.034 --> 30:11.355
When I went to the Rangers
30:11.395 --> 30:13.496
Winter Classic in 2018 at
30:13.576 --> 30:14.496
Citi Field in Queens,
30:14.536 --> 30:15.837
I actually got a picture with the cup.
30:16.357 --> 30:16.798
Oh, really?
30:16.818 --> 30:17.438
Yeah,
30:17.518 --> 30:19.059
they had the cup out for all the fans
30:19.099 --> 30:19.419
to see.
30:19.459 --> 30:21.360
And I'm like, come back to the garden,
30:21.420 --> 30:21.900
please.
30:22.320 --> 30:23.481
Come back to my square garden.
30:25.122 --> 30:26.442
Should have won it in 14.
30:26.522 --> 30:27.943
I'm still mad about it, but...
30:29.520 --> 30:31.763
Well, we've been talking with Allie Riley,
30:31.843 --> 30:33.685
who has written She Spies
30:33.766 --> 30:35.047
about women in the American
30:35.107 --> 30:36.809
Revolution and is hoping to
30:36.869 --> 30:38.792
turn this into a major motion picture.
30:38.812 --> 30:40.194
So, Allie, it's been great to talk to you.
30:40.214 --> 30:41.756
So thank you so much for joining us.
30:42.016 --> 30:42.417
Of course.
30:42.437 --> 30:43.778
Thank you guys so much for having me.
30:44.099 --> 30:44.519
And good luck.
30:45.200 --> 30:47.781
Thank Jonathan Lane, our tireless producer,
30:47.821 --> 30:49.081
the man behind the scenes
30:49.321 --> 30:50.381
and our listeners.
30:50.441 --> 30:51.762
No, we do have listeners all around,
30:52.342 --> 30:53.422
actually all around the world.
30:53.482 --> 30:54.622
And every week I thank some.
30:54.662 --> 30:55.803
And if you're one of these places,
30:55.863 --> 30:57.443
send Jonathan Lane an email,
30:57.463 --> 31:00.644
jlane at revolution250.org.
31:00.704 --> 31:01.604
And he'll send you some of
31:01.704 --> 31:03.584
our Rev 250 gear.
31:03.684 --> 31:06.205
And this week, our friends in Federal Way,
31:06.285 --> 31:08.225
Washington, in Houston,
31:08.826 --> 31:10.606
and in three places here in
31:10.626 --> 31:11.966
the Commonwealth, Waltham,
31:12.006 --> 31:14.247
Peabody and Jamaica Plain, Dundalk,
31:14.287 --> 31:14.727
Maryland,
31:15.612 --> 31:18.133
Lititz, Pennsylvania, Caldwell, Idaho,
31:18.233 --> 31:19.513
Crestkill, New Jersey.
31:19.533 --> 31:21.533
Is that near where you are, Crestkill?
31:22.073 --> 31:23.554
I'm not sure where that is, no.
31:23.574 --> 31:25.094
Okay.
31:25.254 --> 31:27.415
Shelburne, Vermont, Steubenville, Ohio,
31:27.675 --> 31:29.075
and in the free and
31:29.135 --> 31:30.575
Hanseatic city of Hamburg.
31:30.675 --> 31:31.736
Thank you all for joining us.
31:31.776 --> 31:32.516
Those places,
31:32.616 --> 31:34.216
places in between and beyond.
31:34.736 --> 31:36.377
And now we will be piped out
31:36.597 --> 31:37.537
on the road to Boston.