Revolution 250 Podcast

Forgotten Allies with James Kirby Martin

July 11, 2023 James Kirby Martin Season 4 Episode 28
Revolution 250 Podcast
Forgotten Allies with James Kirby Martin
Show Notes Transcript

While the American Revolution brought  independence to much of colonial America, the indigenous peoples of America, even those like the Oneida who supported the American cause, found themselves suffering in the new Republic.  Historian James Kirby Martin joins us to talk about  Forgotten Allies:  The Oneida Indians and the American Revolution. 

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 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
 
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 I'm Bob Allison.
 
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 I chair the Rev 250 Advisory Group.
 
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 I also teach history at Suffolk University.
 
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 And our guest is Kirby Martin.
 
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 Welcome, Jim.
 
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 Welcome back.
 
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 And Professor Martin is the U Roy and Lily Kranz Cullen University
 
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 to Fort Ticonderoga and Fort Plain, has written more than a dozen books
 
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 for joining us.
 
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 Thank you.
 
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 In turn, it's very much my pleasure to be with you again and to talk a little bit more about this very important story about the United Indians and Indians more generally, at least in the northern phase of the Revolutionary War.
 
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 Yes, it is really an extraordinary story.
 
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 And the general impression we as historians
 
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 exaggeration?
 
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 Well, it probably is true when we use the word most.
 
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 But I think a little bit better word, at least at the outset of the war, would be neutrality.
 
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 Initially, let's be careful about what we do.
 
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 And there are lots of different reasons for that.
 
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 One of which is if we get too involved on one side too soon,
 
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 and that side loses, we lose.
 
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 So it's kind of like basic diplomacy or basic survival or whatever term you would prefer or concept you would prefer to use.
 
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 And in the end, I would say most did in some way
 
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 move from a state of neutrality to passive acceptance of the British side or even active acceptance of the British side, which, for instance, was very true in the Six Nations of Indians in New York, the Iroquois-speaking Indians, the Haudenosaunee people.
 
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 The point about that is most of them joined the British side and the Mohawks and the Senecas were especially active, whereas
 
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 the Oneidas were committed to neutrality.
 
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 In fact, that is the big issue that is going on in 1775 and 1776.
 
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 And I could give you this story, I think, as an example.
 
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 And that is that as the war breaks out after Lexington and Concord in April of 1775,
 
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 One of the powerful British leaders who has replaced Sir William Johnson, he's a nephew of Sir William Johnson, who had been the key Indian agent and influencer in the area with the Mohawks.
 
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 This man's name is Guy Johnson.
 
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 And as a nephew, he's sort of taken over part of the role of the important Johnson family in maintaining these relations.
 
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 He will lead a group of Indians, Mohawks into Canada.
 
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 And he will get them to agree to join in attacking the Americans.
 
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 That's what it's all about.
 
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 That's great.
 
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 We're going to go back into the valley and we're going to show them a thing or two to wipe out all of this revolutionary activity.
 
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 Well, they even get a war belt.
 
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 All right.
 
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 That is a wampum.
 
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 We're going to get the Bostonians, or however you want me to say that.
 
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 Anyway, this then leads to a conference with Philip Schuyler, who is the leader in the New York area, the Mohawk Valley area.
 
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 He's a wealthy, wealthy individual.
 
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 And he is both now a major general in the Continental Army.
 
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 He will become that in June of 75.
 
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 And he's going to be the chief Indian negotiator.
 
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 And his job is to keep the Indians neutral.
 
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 Stay out of this.
 
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 This is the family quarrel.
 
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 Stay out of our quarrel.
 
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 Because they know if all the Indians turn against the Americans, that'll be a devastating blow to the cause.
 
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 That is the patriot cause.
 
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 Well...
 
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 So there's a meeting, a grand meeting in August.
 
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 It's going to continue into September at another location.
 
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 And it's in the German Flats area.
 
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 And Schuyler raises so much hackles.
 
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 And by the way, the Mohawks largely did not attend because they're on the side, let's get into this and let's get rid of these Americans, that is the white settlers.
 
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 And the bottom line is,
 
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 Because of Schuyler's influence, there'll be a meeting of the Grand Council, that's the Satchems, the 49 chief Satchems, peace chiefs, if you want to use that term, who will be meeting Grand Council in the Syracuse area, in the Onondaga country.
 
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 And they in turn vote all but unanimously to take those war bills and to give them to Schuyler and go back to neutrality.
 
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 So they call out, the Indians do, of the Six Nations.
 
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 They call out the Mocs and say, let's stay out of this thing.
 
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 Neutrality, neutrality, neutrality is the message that they are pitching.
 
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 That's the best way for us not to suffer some form of devastating loss or losses if we get engaged in this particular military context, a contest that is now taking place.
 
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 So that's what's going on.
 
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 Neutrality is the word of the day.
 
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 But everybody has to decide.
 
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 Just because you've got neutrality doesn't mean individuals can't decide whether they want to remain loyal or whether they want to join the rebel side of the contest that is going on.
 
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 So on the one hand, we have the 49 sachem saying neutrality, but then individuals can decide if they want to.
 
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 That's correct.
 
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 They can.
 
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 But they're on their own.
 
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 That's one of the interesting things about the
 
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 very, very, as I've said on more than one occasion, sophisticated political structure that consensus rules.
 
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 But if you don't like the consensus, whatever it is, you've got two choices, shut up or move.
 
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 That's basically what it boils down to.
 
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 And you will find some
 
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 Indians over the years who don't agree with whatever the dominant policy is coming out of all of the villages up to the grand council level, they will say, maybe I better move westward and become another or join another group or that sort of thing.
 
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 So there's a certain degree of mobility among the native folks.
 
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 Yes, there is.
 
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 It is not
 
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 it is anything but a dictatorship, where let's say you have the high, high, high, high chief.
 
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 The high, high chief in the Oneida world is called the Otachede, if I even come close to saying that correctly.
 
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 The Indian at that time who had that role, his name was Grasshopper, that's what we know him as.
 
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 And he basically has to listen to the people
 
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 It really is kind of a very democratic kind of system they have.
 
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 But if you as an individual disagree, well, you got two fundamental choices.
 
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 And it's very, very interesting for, as we've talked about before, these people are not savage when it comes to the way they organize themselves politically and lots of other ways.
 
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 Right.
 
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 So, but then the Mohawk scene, so the Mohawk then are making a choice about where they stand.
 
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 Some have gone with Guy Johnson.
 
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 That's true.
 
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 That's true.
 
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 I mean, the Mohawks, generally speaking, and by the way, great numbers of Mohawks have already moved to Canada anyway during the 18th century because they really are being the eastern door of the six nations representing the eastern side.
 
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 They have had the most disruption of white settlers moving into their territory.
 
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 And one of the solutions is we'll migrate elsewhere.
 
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 And so there's a lot of migration into Canada.
 
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 And so they have two principal castles, as they would call them.
 
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 We call them villages, but mostly the Mohawks you can think of as pro-British.
 
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 Okay.
 
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 And Canada is really a focal point for both sides.
 
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 The Americans have an invasion in
 
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 From my point of view, it is a major, major impact.
 
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 And let me just offer up here a little bit.
 
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 The United especially, but the exception of the Mohawks and maybe some of the Seneca's out West, they are pushing and they are winning on the issue of neutrality in 1776.
 
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 There is this whole invasion of Canada on the part of the rebel cause, 75, as you know, one of my subjects, Benedict Arnold's heavily involved in that.
 
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 And then there's a big retreat in 1776.
 
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 Arnold fighting at Falkor Island in October will help delay the British coming out of Canada with a major force in 1776.
 
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 And that sets up the stage for General John Burr going to lead another major force out of Canada
 
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 in the late spring, June of 1777.
 
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 And just very quickly, we need to review the plan, that is the operational plan that Burgoyne had for his force.
 
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 The main force is going to drop south out of, moving south out of Montreal, and we'll go up Lake Champlain.
 
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 The water does flow north, so we got to go up Lake Champlain against the current.
 
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 We're going to use Lake George and other routes
 
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 And the goal is to get that army to Albany where another force, British force, is going to come out of New York City.
 
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 And we're going to cut then the New England colonies from the others.
 
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 And sort of what they're thinking is we're going to cut off the head of the rebellion because the rebellion actually began.
 
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 The shooting war began in the New England area, as we all know, at Lexington and Concord.
 
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 Well, anyway, the point is that's part of the plan.
 
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 It's going to be a force of 8,000.
 
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 The second part of the plan is to send a diversionary force under a British colonel who has breveted briefly as a general and as a brigadier.
 
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 And he's going to lead a smaller force, assemble it on Lake Ontario at Fort Oswego.
 
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 Very important.
 
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 So he's going to go up.
 
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 uh the saint lawrence river on onto the lake ontario located oswego and there he's going to gather his whole force and who's going to gather with him primarily uh mohawks and one of their leaders is this person we've talked about joseph brant and angia or however you say it very famous uh indian leader and
 
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 also coming over all the way across the lake from the western end, from Fort... I forgot my fort, but anyway.
 
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 But the point is that this forest will be made up largely of Seneca's with a few Cayuga's and Noanitis.
 
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 All right?
 
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 Now, that is the understanding, the key here.
 
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 All right.
 
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 This force is going to then, it's a diversionary force.
 
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 They're going to drop south.
 
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 And you drop south right into what?
 
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 Oneida territory.
 
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 You're going to drop south on the Oswego River, cross over Oneida Lake, Wood Creek.
 
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 And their target initially is what is called Fort Schuyler.
 
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 Actually, most of the time we know it as Fort Stanwix.
 
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 But in the war, they call it Fort Schuyler out of honoring General Schuyler.
 
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 Yeah, the Americans call it Fort Schuyler.
 
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 The British call it Fort Stanwix.
 
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 Exactly.
 
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 So you've got to knock that fort out, and there is a Continental Regiment there of about 750 soldiers, the 3rd New York, and we've got to take them out because we can't have a major Continental force in our back while we're sweeping eastward down the Mohawk River to Albany where you're going to link up
 
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 hopefully, with Burgoyne.
 
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 Well, we all know that Burgoyne never got there because he was stopped in the Saratoga Battles in September and October of 1777.
 
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 But anyway, let's trace now.
 
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 Now you have a force.
 
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 John Butler is one of the leaders, is an associate of the Johnsons.
 
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 And you have all these Indians gathering.
 
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 This force gets up to about a size of 1,800 to 2,000.
 
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 And
 
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 Remember, it's got to drop through our United Territory because Fort Stanwix is actually in United Territory.
 
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 And then they're going to sweep east.
 
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 So let's go back to the League of Peace and Power or the Confederacy.
 
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 There are certain rules of the Confederacy.
 
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 Rule number one, we don't kill each other or fight and kill each other.
 
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 The second rule that's going to be so important here is we don't invade the territory of one of the nations without their permission.
 
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 That's a matter of respect, political respect.
 
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 The Unitas, knowing that this column is forming up on Lake Ontario, will send a small delegation, Grasshopper, this great chief,
 
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 is involved in this and says, you don't have our permission to march your force through our territory.
 
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 Well, what's the British response?
 
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 Go squat.
 
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 We don't need your permission.
 
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 We're larger.
 
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 We're more powerful.
 
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 Get out of the way.
 
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 Well,
 
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 This sets up an obvious conflict.
 
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 And this then becomes a critical difference for the Unitas moving from a position of neutrality to working with and fighting alongside the Americans in this particular story, those Continentals gathered at Fort Stanwyck.
 
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 So the Unitas know they're in trouble.
 
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 And so they will have to decide, what are they going to do?
 
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 Stand aside and ignore.
 
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 or will we join the American forces?
 
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 And the answer is, in the end, as you sweep through this story, many of the United will go and gather in and around the Fort Skylar,
 
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 for protection, but some of the warriors will join with 60 to 100 Oneida warriors and some Tuscarora warriors thrown in, will join with the Americans to try to ward off this British column that is coming.
 
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 Now, among those individuals are Skemendoa,
 
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 All right.
 
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 And also Han Yeri Dockstader and his wife, Dockstader's wife, that we've called Tyona or Two Kettles.
 
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 She's also involved.
 
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 In fact, she'll go on a ride warning settlers farther that is down the Mohawk Valley that the British are coming.
 
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 Wow.
 
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 That's an amazing story.
 
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 It wasn't just Paul Revere and some others.
 
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 She does some of that, too.
 
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 But it's in 1777.
 
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 It doesn't get quite as much attention.
 
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 So that's where we're at.
 
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 We're at a stalemate.
 
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 What's going to happen?
 
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 So she and Oneida is going to warn the English Dutch settlers along the Mohawk.
 
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 Yes, that's right.
 
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 And she will also make contact then in that warning process with Nicholas Herkimer.
 
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 You can visit the Herkimer Harm today.
 
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 I'd recommend it.
 
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 It's a New York State site that overlooks the Mohawk River from the southern side.
 
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 And he is the militia general in that area.
 
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 It's called Triant County.
 
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 All right.
 
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 Anyway, he now knows he has to organize the militia and he has to go up the Mohawk, march along the Mohawk and try to relieve what is happening now because the British force, Indian force coming down has now put by August 3rd and 4th, Fort Schuyler under siege.
 
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 So they need to relieve that.
 
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 Now, he has with him 700 to 800 militia.
 
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 And part of this story, by the way, is played out in that, not one of my favorite movies, Drums Along the Mohawk.
 
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 Gil Martin is part of this story and so on and so forth.
 
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 The movie goes.
 
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 Anyway, so he's got to get up there.
 
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 And it's a forced march.
 
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 And by the evening of August 5th, they have arrived there.
 
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 And they're next to a small Nida village called Oriska.
 
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 And running close to there is the Oriskany Creek, which will dump its waters into the Mohawk River.
 
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 All right?
 
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 So that evening, what is going to happen is that those 60, we don't know exactly, to 100 warriors will join Herkimer's column.
 
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 All right?
 
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 And somehow...
 
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 Tiona's going to get back involved in this too.
 
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 She comes back from her ride.
 
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 Now this argument breaks out in the American force, goes back to the tension, the relations, because there had been some bad incidents before this where there's been some killing on the part of various Indian groups under Joseph Brandt and some other killing in the area in the valley.
 
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 And the subordinates of
 
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 Herkimer say, we don't know.
 
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 We can't trust these Indians.
 
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 They're saying, well, we'll go out and scout.
 
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 We'll form pickets.
 
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 We will go beside the column, and we'll sort of tramp through the woods and make sure the enemy isn't there going to gang up on you.
 
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 And the subordinates say, you can't trust any Indians.
 
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 Indians are all the same.
 
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 It goes back to that stereotype.
 
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 And Herkimer's saying, wait a minute.
 
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 I know these people.
 
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 I trust these people.
 
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 So what happens?
 
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 Herkimer, to quiet down those subalterns, his lieutenants and so on and so forth, captains, he says, okay, we're not going to send the Oneidas out in a scout.
 
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 We're not gonna use them as pickets.
 
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 We're just gonna march forward, not being aware of what's going on on our flanks.
 
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 Meanwhile, because this is developing,
 
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 Joseph Brandt, working with John Butler, working with various indie groups, especially Mohawks and Senecas, say this is the opportunity to set a trap.
 
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 Now, they don't know there aren't going to be scouts out there.
 
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 But they go ahead and send forces down, including, by the way, we haven't mentioned John Johnson, Sir William's son, known as Sir John Johnson.
 
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 He has formed a loyalist regiment called the Royal Greens, and they'll eventually get in what I'm setting up as.
 
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 what we call the Battle of Oriskany, one of the most important today unknown battles of the whole Revolutionary War.
 
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 Herkimer goes forward on October 6th.
 
 22:02.392 --> 22:05.575
 And anyway, I'm sorry, I said October 6th.
 
 22:05.595 --> 22:06.456
 Why am I in October?
 
 22:06.496 --> 22:07.616
 I'm sorry.
 
 22:08.237 --> 22:08.877
 August 6th.
 
 22:09.318 --> 22:12.921
 Somehow I jumped back to Ticonderoga.
 
 22:13.461 --> 22:14.342
 Back to August 6th.
 
 22:14.562 --> 22:16.143
 And I meant August 5th before.
 
 22:17.222 --> 22:20.144
 And he'll move forward and he walks right into this trap.
 
 22:20.204 --> 22:22.046
 Just think of an upside down you.
 
 22:22.626 --> 22:25.689
 And you're marching your force right into the upside down you.
 
 22:26.169 --> 22:28.251
 And that's exactly what happens.
 
 22:29.451 --> 22:45.504
 And then once they get enough of that force at this Oriskany battlefield, the territory goes down through a swampy area and then back up on what is a military road leading up six miles away to Fort Schuyler.
 
 22:46.625 --> 22:46.985
 Once they
 
 22:48.068 --> 22:52.489
 Once they enter that ravine, the attack occurs.
 
 22:53.629 --> 22:54.750
 Let me summarize it.
 
 22:55.550 --> 23:03.031
 It's going to go on, on and off, two phases, thunderstorms in between, overall about four hours of killing.
 
 23:04.272 --> 23:13.634
 And now we have a situation where Herkimer is able to get some of his column, but probably he lost 60% in casualties or more.
 
 23:14.656 --> 23:18.297
 in this battle, very high by the standards of warfare in the 18th century.
 
 23:19.117 --> 23:34.463
 Meanwhile, what we also know is that up to 60 of the Indians, mainly Senecas, but some Mohawks, were also seriously wounded and or killed in this battle.
 
 23:34.523 --> 23:40.645
 This is a critical point in Native American history in the New York area, a critical point within the Six Nations.
 
 23:41.025 --> 23:41.905
 Go back to the rules.
 
 23:42.310 --> 23:43.931
 Number one, we don't kill each other.
 
 23:44.071 --> 23:45.512
 We don't fight against each other.
 
 23:45.793 --> 23:47.134
 What did they do at Oriskany?
 
 23:47.574 --> 23:49.916
 They fought against each other and they killed each other.
 
 23:51.737 --> 24:03.425
 That is a critical moment in the story of the six nations because they now have literally weakened themselves because they're doing what?
 
 24:04.226 --> 24:06.207
 They're fighting among themselves.
 
 24:06.868 --> 24:11.271
 And that's just like, I hate to say this, the beginning of the end
 
 24:11.775 --> 24:19.181
 of the strength that the Confederacy had because it wouldn't fight and kill among itself.
 
 24:19.221 --> 24:19.942
 That's the story.
 
 24:19.962 --> 24:20.842
 It's amazing.
 
 24:21.042 --> 24:31.010
 We're talking with James Kirby Martin, author of many books, among them, Forgotten Allies, about the Oneida contribution to the American Revolution.
 
 24:31.931 --> 24:32.652
 And this
 
 24:44.538 --> 24:57.961
 And so is there recognition then on part of the Americans of A, the importance of the Oneida and then B, the devastating impact this has had on the Iroquois Confederation?
 
 25:00.182 --> 25:10.485
 Well, there are some very nice words that are spoken by certain Americans, that is by the representing the white settlers.
 
 25:11.785 --> 25:11.885
 And
 
 25:13.368 --> 25:19.390
 I could give you a couple of examples, but I want to also mention a couple of other incidents, maybe before I gave you those examples.
 
 25:20.891 --> 25:26.032
 And that is now the Oneidas are fully committed to fighting on the American side.
 
 25:26.352 --> 25:28.853
 They have become what we call the good and faithful allies.
 
 25:28.913 --> 25:34.615
 That's where the title Forgotten Allies comes from, because they will be forgotten.
 
 25:36.076 --> 25:36.516
 And we got
 
 25:37.171 --> 25:45.415
 We've talked about this a little bit at the beginning about historical amnesia in regard to Indian or Native American or indigenous history, whatever you want to call it.
 
 25:46.616 --> 25:48.577
 And they will be forgotten.
 
 25:48.737 --> 25:51.919
 I'll talk a little bit about that in just a few minutes.
 
 25:51.999 --> 25:55.621
 But anyway, the Oneidas will continue.
 
 25:55.661 --> 25:57.261
 I could give you lots of examples.
 
 25:57.341 --> 26:05.886
 They will send representatives and they will help, especially between the first and the second Saratoga battles between September 7th
 
 26:06.705 --> 26:07.005
 15th.
 
 26:07.025 --> 26:08.545
 I'm remembering my dates correctly.
 
 26:08.585 --> 26:16.587
 I think I've already goofed up the dates with your risk any battle, but I think it's October 7th.
 
 26:16.667 --> 26:22.228
 But anyway, the point is they will be engaged in scouting.
 
 26:22.828 --> 26:31.870
 They will be engaged and they will go out and they'll trap British soldiers and they'll bring them back and interrogate them and frighten them and all these sorts of things.
 
 26:31.950 --> 26:32.550
 They're not allowed.
 
 26:32.590 --> 26:36.151
 The rules are against scalping or anything like that, but they're helping
 
 26:36.755 --> 26:47.621
 the intelligence to help, at this point, General Horatio Gates and then Benedict Arnold set the winning stage for that particular battle.
 
 26:48.302 --> 27:00.909
 They'll go on and actually, with some influence of the Marquis de Lafayette, who will visit them, they will be invited in the late winter, early spring of 1778 to go to Valley Forge.
 
 27:05.220 --> 27:11.643
 and perhaps do the same kind of work, that is scouting, keep an eye on the British in Philadelphia, all that sort of thing.
 
 27:12.603 --> 27:31.031
 And so a number of them will go, and they will be engaged in the battle in mid-May, around May 20th, as I remember, 1778, called the Battle of Barren Hill, because Washington sends out Lafayette with a rather large force, about 2,000, to sweep
 
 27:33.678 --> 28:02.815
 south eastward across the school kill river and to sort of figure out what the british were up to in philadelphia let's test them a little what we call a reconnaissance and force the british were on to it and they will move out of philadelphia in mass and they actually almost catch this force which would have led to some sort of annihilation or major battle the battle of baron hill turned out to be a minor battle but as
 
 28:03.675 --> 28:12.017
 As Lafayette retreated, he will leave behind some of the United Scouts.
 
 28:13.638 --> 28:19.699
 And they will then challenge one of the British forces moving forward, delay, delay, delay, delay, delay.
 
 28:20.320 --> 28:29.802
 And six of them will die in this battle defending the Americans that need to retreat and get out of all the trouble they're into.
 
 28:30.262 --> 28:32.223
 Those Indians are buried in a small church.
 
 28:33.068 --> 28:34.349
 in the Barren Hill area.
 
 28:34.909 --> 28:41.873
 One of the famous ones there is a man by the name of Thomas Senevas, who was a sachem, both a peace chief and a warrior.
 
 28:42.734 --> 28:54.921
 And anyway, it's a very... Jim, you also told a story about Senevas before, as he was finding out about Burgoyne's plan, concealing himself.
 
 28:55.121 --> 28:55.741
 That's right.
 
 28:55.761 --> 28:58.082
 That's a very important story in and of itself.
 
 28:59.103 --> 28:59.203
 And
 
 28:59.935 --> 29:10.742
 That is something he did as part of a scouting party to help inform Schuyler ahead of the whole launching of the Berkline campaign.
 
 29:10.762 --> 29:11.923
 What were they really up to?
 
 29:12.463 --> 29:16.266
 And he's very heavily involved in that, showed tremendous preference.
 
 29:17.106 --> 29:17.366
 Yeah.
 
 29:17.907 --> 29:27.133
 Well, he actually goes north with a small column, a scouting party, and they will make contact with the group,
 
 29:30.653 --> 29:31.453
 involving the St.
 
 29:31.513 --> 29:32.735
 Leger expedition.
 
 29:34.656 --> 29:38.820
 And he'll go into the village himself and sort of walk around.
 
 29:39.240 --> 29:43.324
 These troops are gathering and Indians and so on and so forth.
 
 29:44.105 --> 30:00.737
 And he climbs up in the rafters of the building and he's listening to the British below, including Sir John Johnson and others, discuss the plan about how we're going to proceed through the United Territory and what the overall operational strategy and plan is.
 
 30:01.218 --> 30:02.999
 And he comes back and he's one of them.
 
 30:03.019 --> 30:04.340
 He reports all of that stuff.
 
 30:04.360 --> 30:13.107
 This was an incredibly brave man who gave his life in defense of the American or the rebel cause.
 
 30:14.088 --> 30:40.768
 so i think it's an interesting story in and of itself he is he is a major character uh in the story uh and dies tragically in the end yeah and there is enough more than enough material here to make a better movie than drums along yes well there is a story about that we did come close to making a movie based on the book and the things that we've been talking about in the year 2011.
 
 30:42.918 --> 30:44.239
 My time has passed since then.
 
 30:44.939 --> 30:47.842
 But the point is all sorts of things went wrong.
 
 30:47.902 --> 30:49.723
 I won't go into those details.
 
 30:50.463 --> 30:54.426
 And we had to cancel at the last minute.
 
 30:54.486 --> 30:56.928
 However, there's a new project.
 
 30:57.549 --> 30:59.490
 Very good.
 
 30:59.950 --> 31:07.356
 I've been talking with some people about trying to do some sort of a mini series that would tell virtually the same story.
 
 31:07.696 --> 31:09.537
 You know, the whole thing with now Hollywood has changed.
 
 31:09.557 --> 31:11.298
 We're not all rushing off to the theater.
 
 31:11.759 --> 31:12.059
 Right.
 
 31:12.623 --> 31:13.623
 and going to the movies.
 
 31:14.263 --> 31:18.324
 We've gotten all these streaming services have come into existence.
 
 31:18.764 --> 31:20.705
 They're looking for material.
 
 31:21.365 --> 31:23.985
 Many series have, many of them have been very successful.
 
 31:24.465 --> 31:31.187
 And so it's a whole new world that wasn't there 10 or 15 years ago that we may be able to tap into.
 
 31:31.527 --> 31:33.387
 Put a pitch in for this activity.
 
 31:33.987 --> 31:34.347
 Okay.
 
 31:34.627 --> 31:35.268
 That is great.
 
 31:35.408 --> 31:37.108
 I will look forward
 
 31:43.319 --> 31:51.443
 But we're talking with James Kirby Martin, who's actually, you've written enough material for lots of stories.
 
 31:51.463 --> 31:54.104
 You did the film about Benedict Arnold a year or two ago.
 
 31:54.124 --> 31:54.964
 Yes, we did.
 
 31:54.984 --> 31:59.486
 And that was a labor of love, I guess I could call it.
 
 32:01.987 --> 32:08.010
 And we started that project in late 2001.
 
 32:11.596 --> 32:16.298
 It finally was released and does appear on several streaming services.
 
 32:17.679 --> 32:20.020
 Some of the very good ones, I might add, are well-known ones.
 
 32:21.681 --> 32:22.481
 And you can watch it.
 
 32:22.942 --> 32:25.623
 You can watch it on, what is it called?
 
 32:25.643 --> 32:27.924
 The Amazon Prime Network.
 
 32:28.184 --> 32:28.745
 Available.
 
 32:29.225 --> 32:30.786
 You can buy it or you can watch it.
 
 32:30.826 --> 32:31.546
 I think it's free.
 
 32:31.906 --> 32:34.667
 And there are others like that, other streaming services out there.
 
 32:35.388 --> 32:38.469
 But it took only from 2001...
 
 32:40.649 --> 32:48.033
 to 2021 when we finally had a premiere for the movie.
 
 32:48.133 --> 32:50.855
 It's still 20 years in the making.
 
 32:51.495 --> 32:53.797
 And there were up years and there were down years.
 
 32:53.897 --> 32:55.738
 And there were years when nothing was done.
 
 32:55.838 --> 32:59.620
 And it just was a saga that I could go into.
 
 32:59.660 --> 33:00.280
 But it's done.
 
 33:00.300 --> 33:03.462
 And it's actually reviewed, I think, very well.
 
 33:04.103 --> 33:06.544
 It's a bit of a different look at Arnold where we say,
 
 33:07.796 --> 33:14.237
 was he perhaps justified in some of the decisions that he made, given what he had given to the cause and the treatment that he was getting.
 
 33:14.257 --> 33:16.398
 Right.
 
 33:16.458 --> 33:18.938
 We should get back to the Oneida though.
 
 33:19.098 --> 33:20.979
 Oh, absolutely.
 
 33:20.999 --> 33:22.959
 So what are the consequences for that?
 
 33:25.140 --> 33:33.022
 Well, the consequences are not good all the way around, not even for the Oneidas in the end.
 
 33:34.022 --> 33:34.222
 And the,
 
 33:35.799 --> 33:42.903
 The best way for me to summarize this would be go to the treaty settlements that come out of the Revolutionary War.
 
 33:43.284 --> 33:53.210
 Though the Unitas continue on fighting for the Americans, their villages are devastated and run over by British and Joseph Brandt, on and on and on.
 
 33:53.690 --> 33:58.053
 But let's go to this important peace settlement that's going to be worked out.
 
 33:58.133 --> 34:04.837
 First of all, the British in 1775 and before had promised literally
 
 34:05.535 --> 34:08.637
 If you fight with us, you will get your territory back.
 
 34:09.478 --> 34:13.420
 It goes back to the proclamation of 1763, that kind of thinking.
 
 34:14.901 --> 34:21.445
 Well, in 1783, if you look up the Peace of Paris, find me something about what the British did for the Indians.
 
 34:21.645 --> 34:22.546
 It is silent.
 
 34:23.606 --> 34:24.907
 They abandoned them.
 
 34:25.888 --> 34:28.369
 Good, bad, or indifferent, they were abandoned.
 
 34:29.410 --> 34:32.332
 That means they're now turned over to the British
 
 34:33.129 --> 34:58.401
 winning force the uh american rebels and there will be to be two treaties in 1784 both of them at fort skylar now morphing back to fort stanwix one is with the state of new york the other is with the federal government in the state treaty
 
 34:59.955 --> 35:03.636
 And in the national treaty, the Oneidas are complimented, exonerated.
 
 35:03.916 --> 35:05.076
 You fought on our side.
 
 35:05.457 --> 35:06.437
 We appreciate it.
 
 35:06.517 --> 35:09.778
 I'm going to read a couple of key quotes in a moment on that one.
 
 35:10.798 --> 35:15.799
 But those other four, now the Tuscaroras were with the Oneidas.
 
 35:15.859 --> 35:21.401
 That is the Senecas, the Cayugas going west to east, the Onondagas.
 
 35:22.781 --> 35:26.422
 and the Mohawks all have to make land cessions.
 
 35:27.502 --> 35:30.003
 Your punishment is we're going to take more of your land.
 
 35:30.063 --> 35:32.603
 And that process is obviously going to continue.
 
 35:33.084 --> 35:34.804
 The United is no problem.
 
 35:34.844 --> 35:36.144
 You're a good and faithful allies.
 
 35:36.184 --> 35:37.465
 Whoa, wait a minute here.
 
 35:37.925 --> 35:38.825
 There are two treaties in 1784.
 
 35:39.185 --> 35:41.245
 The United is a problem.
 
 35:41.426 --> 35:42.786
 But then the thought strikes.
 
 35:43.586 --> 35:46.287
 They have something like 6 million acres.
 
 35:46.327 --> 35:49.727
 And at this point, they're not even quite a thousand people.
 
 35:50.088 --> 35:51.828
 You don't need all that land, right?
 
 35:53.140 --> 36:04.007
 Even though you're a good and faithful ally, 1785, Governor George Clinton comes out and begins to negotiate with various Oneida leaders and said, can we make a deal here?
 
 36:05.227 --> 36:09.970
 We sort of work something out so we could rent or maybe buy some of your land.
 
 36:09.990 --> 36:13.152
 What I'm pointing to is that's the beginning of the process.
 
 36:14.273 --> 36:16.074
 How does that end up for the Oneidas?
 
 36:17.711 --> 36:19.752
 Very simply, I'd do it very quickly.
 
 36:20.393 --> 36:28.377
 Six million acres at the time of the revolution that is defined as their territory within the structure of the six nations.
 
 36:29.398 --> 36:33.060
 And the area would then be called Iroquoia.
 
 36:34.921 --> 36:42.806
 In 1900, by the census of 1900, the United States could claim 35 acres as their territory.
 
 36:44.167 --> 36:44.847
 What happened?
 
 36:45.668 --> 36:47.269
 Well, we talk about dispersal.
 
 36:48.220 --> 36:49.540
 And that's really what happened.
 
 36:50.280 --> 36:58.102
 In the 19th century, as in the early years, some of the Oneidas will actually move to Ontario province.
 
 36:58.962 --> 37:07.703
 Some will even league up with their traditional enemy, Joseph Grant, who was also organizing Indians and new settlements in Ontario province.
 
 37:08.323 --> 37:16.885
 Many more Oneidas will actually go all the way to the area of Green Bay, Wisconsin, where they have a very major presence today.
 
 37:17.844 --> 37:20.946
 That is the same place where the football team comes from.
 
 37:21.046 --> 37:25.630
 All around that area now was given as Oneida territory.
 
 37:25.690 --> 37:28.892
 The Oneidas are still very prominent in that area, so they disperse.
 
 37:29.432 --> 37:41.081
 The core group, the New York Oneidas, that is the group that specifically I've worked with over the years, the actual New York Oneida Nation, and is recognized as such today.
 
 37:42.962 --> 37:44.703
 That is a smaller group.
 
 37:45.124 --> 37:46.865
 It's tough to give you an exact number.
 
 37:47.801 --> 37:51.622
 But their numbers slowly declined, then began to build back up.
 
 37:52.082 --> 38:03.424
 Maybe 1,000 or more represent the United Nation in New York today, and have come back amazingly so, and are very, very prosperous people.
 
 38:04.304 --> 38:07.225
 But anyway, that's the overview.
 
 38:08.105 --> 38:09.005
 They lost it all.
 
 38:09.605 --> 38:13.026
 Basically, now they have, as I would say,
 
 38:13.905 --> 38:22.473
 by getting involved in the gaming business, in the hotel business, in the golf business, in the gas business, you name it, they are into it.
 
 38:23.314 --> 38:29.399
 They have become, and become again, a very prosperous people as they were before.
 
 38:29.419 --> 38:39.909
 It's a different kind of prosperity than was before, but overall the nation, I would put it in the major prospering category.
 
 38:40.592 --> 39:05.557
 so that's kind of the story but but let me tell you at the time i have to i have to uh if you i do have to put on my reading glasses but i want to read you a couple of contemporary quotes excuse me with my old horn rims here now this quote about the united is in their service they weren't saying this about the others obviously no uh in the nations
 
 39:06.590 --> 39:19.939
 This is a pledge by the delegates of the Continental Congress to the United Indian Nation, December 3rd, 1777, thanking them obviously for their service at Oriskany and for their service at Saratoga.
 
 39:21.020 --> 39:21.420
 Here we go.
 
 39:21.801 --> 39:24.843
 Quote, we have experienced your love, strong as the oak.
 
 39:25.419 --> 39:26.279
 and your fidelity.
 
 39:26.399 --> 39:27.620
 Unchangeable is truth.
 
 39:28.300 --> 39:33.402
 While the sun and moon continue to give light to the world, we shall love and respect you.
 
 39:34.403 --> 39:43.566
 As our trusted friends, we shall protect you and shall at all times consider your welfare as our own.
 
 39:44.807 --> 39:45.947
 Did it turn out that way?
 
 39:48.048 --> 39:48.808
 Quote number two.
 
 39:49.829 --> 39:51.209
 This is from Philip Schuyler.
 
 39:52.430 --> 39:52.730
 To the
 
 39:53.226 --> 40:01.630
 Oneida Indians, he's a head Indian commissioner from the Continental Congress in the area, as well as being a major general, May 11, 1778.
 
 40:03.931 --> 40:09.794
 Accept my best thanks for your friendly care and attention to the interests of the United States.
 
 40:10.634 --> 40:17.397
 I've often told you that the conduct which you have held would always entitle you to our love and esteem.
 
 40:18.652 --> 40:25.616
 Yet I repeat with pleasure and sooner should a fond mother forget her only son, then we shall forget you.
 
 40:27.037 --> 40:27.738
 Right?
 
 40:28.478 --> 40:29.058
 Two quotes.
 
 40:29.679 --> 40:31.560
 Forever we're going to remember you.
 
 40:32.721 --> 40:34.782
 Why do we call them forgotten allies?
 
 40:35.442 --> 40:39.865
 So I want to give you this particular story.
 
 40:41.586 --> 40:47.029
 The General Lafayette, Marquis de Lafayette, did develop working relations with the United States.
 
 40:47.049 --> 40:47.790
 He was actually...
 
 40:48.482 --> 40:56.346
 at the New York conference in 1784, that is the Fort Stanwix treaty conference with the state of New York.
 
 40:56.466 --> 40:59.467
 And he said to the Indians, you made the mistake.
 
 40:59.827 --> 41:00.688
 You're gonna pay.
 
 41:00.928 --> 41:03.349
 You should have maintained your neutrality.
 
 41:03.669 --> 41:09.172
 By getting involved, you have lost, as what often happens in war.
 
 41:09.852 --> 41:13.094
 He's complimenting the Unitas at the same time.
 
 41:14.214 --> 41:15.495
 Then let's jump way ahead.
 
 41:16.756 --> 41:17.556
 We get to the year,
 
 41:18.677 --> 41:29.665
 1824 and Lafayette is invited back to America to help celebrate what would be the 50th anniversary of the country.
 
 41:30.505 --> 41:34.588
 And that would be in 17, I mean, 20, 25 and 20.
 
 41:34.728 --> 41:40.472
 It has to be, it has to be somewhere.
 
 41:42.594 --> 41:44.535
 The centuries all blend together.
 
 41:44.815 --> 41:45.075
 Right.
 
 41:45.135 --> 41:45.856
 They just,
 
 41:46.530 --> 42:09.035
 dates apparently are not my thing even though I'm a historian but the the uh the point is it is it is actually 1825 1826 so he comes back in 1824 this grand tour of all 22 states yeah and he's going to June of 1825 he ends up in Utica New York which is growing up around the Erie Canal
 
 42:10.434 --> 42:13.056
 The Anaites have been totally shoved aside.
 
 42:13.636 --> 42:16.779
 The settlers no longer really know their history, know anything about them.
 
 42:16.839 --> 42:21.323
 Lafayette arrives on this particular day, and he said, where are my friends, the Anaites?
 
 42:22.164 --> 42:23.785
 And the local officials look at him.
 
 42:24.005 --> 42:25.407
 Well, what are you talking about?
 
 42:26.487 --> 42:27.448
 But then he spies.
 
 42:27.488 --> 42:28.509
 There's a small group.
 
 42:28.609 --> 42:34.895
 One of them is Cornelius, the son of Hanieri, and two Kettles, the Dockstaders.
 
 42:35.715 --> 42:37.477
 And he's there now as an old man.
 
 42:39.409 --> 42:41.851
 And Lafayette says, stop everything.
 
 42:41.951 --> 42:45.294
 I'm going to meet with my former colleagues and allies.
 
 42:45.374 --> 42:47.636
 And he will go meet with a small group of Indians.
 
 42:48.957 --> 42:51.119
 The settlers there, you know, they don't know what he's doing.
 
 42:51.139 --> 42:52.179
 What's the matter with this guy?
 
 42:52.199 --> 42:53.941
 Doesn't he know who the important people are?
 
 42:54.361 --> 42:55.542
 You know, we're all veterans.
 
 42:55.902 --> 42:59.165
 I lost my leg at, you know, wherever, that kind of thing.
 
 42:59.345 --> 43:08.873
 And the point is, he still remembered and he still recognized, even though the community that was built on top of the United Nations
 
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 There's no recollection.
 
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 So one of the things that I would say that we try to do as historians is we try to recreate or reformulate, reorganize whatever the past.
 
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 And so what is really good, I think as a historian, is that now we are in, and we have been actually now for several years, maybe almost 50 years, I could say,
 
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 beginning to recognize all those people that weren't part of this traditional story as it was told.
 
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 And that is a very, very important development.
 
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 In some cases, maybe we've gone to extreme.
 
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 We've lost the central focus.
 
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 We've sort of, I don't know what the right word is to describe it, but we sort of balkanized ourselves.
 
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 So we get this group here and this group there and this group over there, and we're not coming back together as a people.
 
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 But you know, there was a major program in the 1990s under the Clinton administration that was called Coming Together.
 
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 And that was to bring communities of diverse people together to try to live peacefully, harmoniously, and with great prosperity as the all-inclusive American people.
 
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 Great.
 
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 Well, thank you very much.
 
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 We've been talking with James Kirby Martin, whose active work as an historian has made it
 
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 possible for us to reimagine and to come together.
 
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 So I want to thank you for the work you've done, and thank you for this wonderful conversation about the role of the Oneida in the American Revolution.
 
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 Thank you.
 
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 It was my pleasure, even though I screwed up a few dates.
 
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 Well, that's okay.
 
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 You correct that.
 
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 I don't know how you dumped in the right dates, but anyway, try to stay on the big picture.
 
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 That's right.
 
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 This is great.
 
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 And I want to thank all of our listeners and Jonathan Lane, our producer, and I'm
 
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 and Montgomery both in the state of New York and Pattaya and Chonburi and Thailand and all places in between and if you are listening from one of these places send Jonathan Lane an email jlane at Revolution 250.org and they'll send you some of our Revolution 250 refrigerator magnets with quotes from the community correspondence from the towns of Massachusetts and so as we continue to remember the events of the revolution and think about ways to commemorate and