Revolution 250 Podcast

King Hancock with Brooke Barbier

June 06, 2023 Brooke Barbier Season 4 Episode 23
Revolution 250 Podcast
King Hancock with Brooke Barbier
Show Notes Transcript

John Hancock, the most famous signer of the Declaration of Independence, was a man of contradictions.  He was a man born into privilege, and yet he became one of the most passionate voices for the rights of the common man. He was a wealthy man of business, but longed for military glory.  We talk with Brooke Barbier, author of King Hancock:  The Radicat Influence of a Moderate Founder, about this enigmatic figure we think we know so well.  Brooke Barbier is also the founder of Ye Olde Tavern Tours, for those who want beer with their history (and vice versa), and the author of Boston in the American Revolution:  A town vs. an Empire, available from Amazon or as part of a tour.  


WEBVTT
 
 00:00.899 --> 00:04.502
 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
 
 00:04.582 --> 00:05.322
 I'm Bob Allison.
 
 00:05.382 --> 00:09.825
 I chair the Rev 250 advisory group, also teach history at Suffolk University.
 
 00:10.386 --> 00:18.752
 And Rev 250 is a collaboration among about 70 groups in and around Massachusetts looking at ways to commemorate the beginnings of the American Revolution.
 
 00:18.892 --> 00:21.414
 And our guest today is Brooke Barbier.
 
 00:21.494 --> 00:22.595
 Brooke, thanks for joining us.
 
 00:23.255 --> 00:34.144
 And Brooke is the founder and proprietor of Ye Olde Tavern Tours, which is now going strong for after 10 years, as well as the author of two books.
 
 00:34.204 --> 00:38.307
 Her first is Boston and the American Revolution, a town versus an empire.
 
 00:38.827 --> 00:44.492
 And her new book is John Hancock, the radical influence of a moderate founding father.
 
 00:44.512 --> 00:45.693
 So, Brooke, thanks for joining us.
 
 00:46.087 --> 00:47.068
 Thank you for having me.
 
 00:47.128 --> 00:47.988
 I'm so excited.
 
 00:48.268 --> 00:53.571
 This is a podcast I listen to regularly, so it's such a thrill to be on with you.
 
 00:53.891 --> 00:54.812
 Well, thanks for listening.
 
 00:54.872 --> 00:55.792
 It's great to have you.
 
 00:55.852 --> 00:59.114
 Great to have you now speaking to our many listeners out there.
 
 00:59.594 --> 01:08.819
 And so Hancock is one of those character figures everyone knows, but then again, after reading your book, I realized we don't really know him as well as we should.
 
 01:08.879 --> 01:10.780
 So what intrigued you about John Hancock?
 
 01:10.820 --> 01:12.041
 How'd you get into writing this book?
 
 01:12.833 --> 01:18.340
 Well, one of the things is how present he was during the American Revolution.
 
 01:18.501 --> 01:26.531
 I love that he was at a lot of these key moments, but he wasn't always steering these key moments.
 
 01:27.092 --> 01:28.955
 And then he goes on to become...
 
 01:29.844 --> 01:36.846
 you know, synonymous with the name signature today in 76, this bold, iconic signature.
 
 01:37.226 --> 01:42.988
 But again, looking, digging into him more, his politics were much less bold than his signature.
 
 01:43.148 --> 01:55.291
 And so I wanted to explore that, how someone goes on to have such great influence without being a political radical in a time and place of radicals.
 
 01:55.791 --> 01:55.931
 Yeah.
 
 01:55.971 --> 02:06.438
 And there's this kind of idea that either he is this vain guy who's easily swayed by or he is the one paying for all of these things.
 
 02:06.458 --> 02:08.760
 He's susceptible to flattery from either side.
 
 02:08.820 --> 02:11.782
 So who is the real John Hancock behind all this?
 
 02:12.341 --> 02:20.185
 Yeah, I think there is a narrative among, in fact, I know there's a narrative among many historians that he's this vapid dupe.
 
 02:22.106 --> 02:28.970
 And I can see why that narrative has been perpetuated over the years.
 
 02:30.891 --> 02:35.894
 And certainly he was susceptible to flattery, but most men at this time were.
 
 02:35.954 --> 02:38.535
 Most men in politics were, certainly.
 
 02:39.282 --> 02:40.864
 And this time too.
 
 02:40.944 --> 02:41.824
 Yes, exactly.
 
 02:42.125 --> 02:46.428
 And so who he was, though, is he was someone who...
 
 02:48.069 --> 02:58.477
 cared about appearance and cared very much about his popularity, but he cultivated his appearance and his popularity intentionally.
 
 02:58.677 --> 03:05.222
 And that makes him a little bit more modern than we tend to think of politicians at this time.
 
 03:05.502 --> 03:14.369
 He deliberately hosted parties and deliberately was kind to people below him to gain popularity.
 
 03:15.029 --> 03:16.870
 Now, if somebody wants to criticize
 
 03:17.731 --> 03:25.474
 If a historian takes issue with that, I think that's fine as long as they recognize that some of what he was doing was intentional.
 
 03:26.614 --> 03:29.856
 He was trying to cultivate popularity.
 
 03:31.713 --> 03:33.874
 In the mid-1760s, it's essential.
 
 03:33.975 --> 03:39.778
 There's angry mobs targeting wealthy men, and he needs to make sure they stay on his side.
 
 03:40.519 --> 03:53.067
 So there's reasons to do this, not just to be flattered, but also for self-preservation, but also if you want to keep getting elected and you want to have some influence, you need to be popular.
 
 03:54.167 --> 03:59.369
 So it's that so he's in business, but he makes this move into politics, which then is.
 
 03:59.709 --> 04:02.249
 And so this is part of a political strategy.
 
 04:02.729 --> 04:03.250
 Yeah.
 
 04:03.410 --> 04:08.671
 So I think he he sort of I wouldn't give him that much credit for entering politics intentionally.
 
 04:08.731 --> 04:15.253
 He kind of falls backwards into it because his uncle, who sort of adopted him as his uncle,
 
 04:16.073 --> 04:20.455
 The uncle adopts John Hancock as his son, essentially, when he was a young boy.
 
 04:20.475 --> 04:24.117
 He was the statesman of the family.
 
 04:24.658 --> 04:32.402
 And when he dies suddenly in 1764, all of a sudden John Hancock is considered for a political role.
 
 04:32.622 --> 04:38.785
 And really, if the uncle had stayed alive, and I don't really like counterfactuals like that.
 
 04:40.406 --> 04:43.028
 John Hancock said in 1764 and 1765, I'm not much interested in politics.
 
 04:45.697 --> 04:46.017
 Really?
 
 04:46.377 --> 04:47.398
 How old was he at this time?
 
 04:48.039 --> 04:50.620
 He's 28 at this time.
 
 04:51.601 --> 05:01.588
 And he had been named a partner a few years earlier in the house of Hancock, this merchant house that his uncle had built from the ground up.
 
 05:02.932 --> 05:07.974
 He's not exactly, he doesn't have the same business sense, the same cunning that his uncle has.
 
 05:08.734 --> 05:12.535
 But he's certainly taken on the role of this prominent merchant in Boston.
 
 05:12.655 --> 05:16.997
 And then when his uncle dies, that's when he enters politics.
 
 05:17.057 --> 05:24.159
 And you can see him writing his letters and reading what other people are saying about him, that he's really finding his way.
 
 05:25.739 --> 05:29.220
 He'd rather not have there be an imperial crisis coming his way.
 
 05:29.240 --> 05:30.481
 He'd rather just...
 
 05:31.670 --> 05:39.678
 You know, even just have things the way they were, because that's when the House of Hancock was making a lot of money, even if others were destitute.
 
 05:39.698 --> 05:39.878
 Right.
 
 05:40.038 --> 05:40.219
 Right.
 
 05:40.659 --> 05:48.767
 So how does he then get involved with the Samuel Adams, James Otis side of things, as opposed to the Thomas Hutchinson, Peter Oliver side of things?
 
 05:49.508 --> 05:51.390
 That's really the question, Bob.
 
 05:51.450 --> 05:53.272
 It's so interesting because.
 
 05:55.578 --> 06:02.981
 One of my chapter titles is a traitor to his class because throughout his life, he seems to be a traitor to his class.
 
 06:03.021 --> 06:13.766
 So before independence and the formation of the United States, he's a traitor to other wealthy men because a lot of wealthy men in Massachusetts sided with the crown.
 
 06:13.786 --> 06:14.306
 Right.
 
 06:15.006 --> 06:18.112
 because that's how they made their money is siding with the crown.
 
 06:18.733 --> 06:25.947
 But then after the revolution, when he's governor of Massachusetts, he again betrays the wealthy by siding with the poor.
 
 06:27.649 --> 06:28.930
 or struggling.
 
 06:28.950 --> 06:39.859
 And so how he goes about becoming a member of this inner circle is, it's unusual.
 
 06:39.979 --> 06:45.643
 And I think I can attribute it, one, to the Stamp Act riots really awaken him.
 
 06:45.663 --> 06:47.404
 I think they terrify him.
 
 06:47.465 --> 06:51.268
 He doesn't say that, but it's pretty clear how he acts after that.
 
 06:53.329 --> 06:55.551
 The riot against Andrew Oliver,
 
 06:55.771 --> 06:58.192
 the first riot, which happened in August.
 
 06:58.232 --> 06:59.652
 He's the stand-back collector.
 
 07:00.652 --> 07:02.853
 John Hancock said, that was good.
 
 07:03.093 --> 07:07.074
 And I hope there are other mobs like this that permeate throughout the continent.
 
 07:07.774 --> 07:08.034
 Wow.
 
 07:08.594 --> 07:09.975
 Yeah, right.
 
 07:10.035 --> 07:19.337
 But then two weeks later, with the attack on Thomas Hutchinson's house, who really had nothing to do with this, as you know, thought it was a bad idea.
 
 07:19.357 --> 07:19.437
 Yeah.
 
 07:20.925 --> 07:23.486
 Hancock says, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
 
 07:24.467 --> 07:29.629
 What happened with Oliver has been a decades long tradition of revolt.
 
 07:29.729 --> 07:33.031
 And then you kind of get your way and then everything goes back to peaceful.
 
 07:33.591 --> 07:35.833
 And the mob got their way.
 
 07:35.933 --> 07:37.694
 Andrew Oliver resigns the next day.
 
 07:38.414 --> 07:42.696
 To target Hutchinson two weeks later, I think that really scared Hancock.
 
 07:42.796 --> 07:46.058
 And like I said, he doesn't say that, but it's clear the way that he
 
 07:47.446 --> 07:53.513
 engages after that, that he doesn't want people to turn on him.
 
 07:54.274 --> 07:59.640
 And he wants, it's better for everyone, especially him if there's peace in Boston.
 
 07:59.701 --> 08:03.505
 So he does something really interesting.
 
 08:03.525 --> 08:03.565
 He
 
 08:05.282 --> 08:12.767
 As you know, Pope's Day and Pope's Night was this big occasion and often a time for violence in the streets.
 
 08:13.688 --> 08:16.470
 And it happens on November 5th, every November 5th.
 
 08:17.190 --> 08:25.215
 But officials were particularly worried about the one happening in 1765 because the Stamp Act was to go into effect on November 1st.
 
 08:25.396 --> 08:25.896
 Right, yeah.
 
 08:26.516 --> 08:26.776
 Right.
 
 08:26.977 --> 08:32.921
 And so people are worried, is this just going to be a huge uprising
 
 08:33.881 --> 08:40.811
 not coupling Pope's Day with the Stamp Act protests because no one knew what would happen on November 1st.
 
 08:42.461 --> 08:52.650
 And so Hancock hosts a meeting at the Green Dragon Tavern between the North End gang and the South End gang, the two gangs that usually face off in Pope's Day.
 
 08:53.391 --> 08:55.773
 And he says, let's not do that.
 
 08:55.853 --> 08:58.355
 Let's all work together and be peaceable.
 
 08:58.475 --> 08:59.556
 And they were.
 
 08:59.857 --> 09:01.438
 On November 1st, they were peaceful.
 
 09:01.498 --> 09:03.740
 And on November 5th, it was a totally different look.
 
 09:04.581 --> 09:04.701
 And...
 
 09:06.195 --> 09:22.447
 I see that as nothing other than self-interest, is wanting to preserve your own property, your own place in society, recognizing that a calm Boston is better than a violent Boston.
 
 09:24.328 --> 09:26.589
 And so that's how he sort of enters it.
 
 09:26.649 --> 09:31.591
 But I wouldn't even say at this time that he's an ally of James Otis or Samuel Adams.
 
 09:32.131 --> 09:36.813
 When the Stamp Actors repealed the following year, this always cracks me up to think about.
 
 09:37.213 --> 09:42.655
 They have this big party on Boston Common to celebrate fireworks.
 
 09:42.675 --> 09:45.716
 Paul Revere made this pyramid.
 
 09:46.837 --> 09:50.458
 And Hancock did his own fireworks display.
 
 09:50.948 --> 09:54.976
 And the newspaper said in an answer to that by the Sons of Liberty.
 
 09:55.537 --> 10:02.790
 So he was really trying to show he was he wanted to be a town leader, but he wanted to do it in his own way.
 
 10:03.112 --> 10:03.432
 Right.
 
 10:03.773 --> 10:03.953
 Right.
 
 10:04.393 --> 10:08.656
 Even even when he's with that Adams and Otis, he's not.
 
 10:09.076 --> 10:09.337
 Right.
 
 10:09.517 --> 10:09.757
 Yeah.
 
 10:10.137 --> 10:10.617
 Yeah.
 
 10:10.637 --> 10:17.402
 We're talking with Brooke Barbier, who is the author of King Hancock, the new biography of John Hancock.
 
 10:17.462 --> 10:20.985
 And so what about the Sloop Liberty?
 
 10:21.005 --> 10:23.827
 I mean, that's one of the big signal events leading up to this.
 
 10:24.207 --> 10:25.648
 His Sloop, the customs.
 
 10:25.668 --> 10:25.848
 Yeah.
 
 10:25.948 --> 10:26.189
 Yeah.
 
 10:27.745 --> 10:28.466
 Big story.
 
 10:28.766 --> 10:29.106
 Yeah.
 
 10:29.246 --> 10:31.048
 And you know so much about this.
 
 10:31.088 --> 10:34.630
 This is one of those kind of iconic Boston mobs.
 
 10:36.172 --> 10:38.774
 But what's really interesting is it
 
 10:39.918 --> 10:49.344
 you see a through thread from the way he calmed mobs in the stand back riots to to what happens with the liberty.
 
 10:50.085 --> 10:52.847
 You see his influence with the people of Boston.
 
 10:52.887 --> 11:01.513
 So what happened was in April 1768, one of Hancock's ships called Lydia, named after his aunt,
 
 11:02.333 --> 11:11.922
 comes in and these two tidesman customs officials board the ship and someone alerts Hancock that they boarded the ship.
 
 11:12.422 --> 11:15.665
 And so he goes down to his work and he says, You can't go below deck.
 
 11:15.845 --> 11:19.589
 You're allowed to go on top of the deck, but you can't go below deck.
 
 11:20.971 --> 11:24.233
 And they said, oh, yeah, yeah, okay.
 
 11:25.334 --> 11:28.276
 And then they go below deck anyway.
 
 11:28.856 --> 11:34.860
 And Hancock's men pull him out and say, you know, you're going to lose your bread if you keep going down there.
 
 11:35.760 --> 11:42.084
 And so that sort of started the, planted the seed in the customs board's mind.
 
 11:42.124 --> 11:44.246
 They were already pretty suspicious of Hancock.
 
 11:44.266 --> 11:44.606
 Mm-hmm.
 
 11:45.186 --> 11:48.370
 But they started to say, this guy's acting recklessly.
 
 11:48.430 --> 11:50.472
 He can't tell our tidesmen what to do.
 
 11:51.012 --> 11:54.396
 And of course, he was huzzahed and cheered in the street by everyone.
 
 11:54.516 --> 11:56.278
 And so people said, this guy's dangerous.
 
 11:56.919 --> 12:03.266
 And so then a month later, when the Liberty ship, just called Liberty, Liberty docks,
 
 12:04.594 --> 12:08.416
 He claims that he has 25 casks of Madeira on board.
 
 12:08.956 --> 12:17.341
 And the tidesman at that time accepts that number and says, okay, you know, when Hancock pays what he needs and goes about his way.
 
 12:18.021 --> 12:19.782
 And then it was only...
 
 12:21.297 --> 12:26.642
 It's only a month later that that same tidesman said, actually, wait, no, he didn't.
 
 12:27.583 --> 12:28.684
 They must have been smuggling.
 
 12:28.744 --> 12:30.626
 In fact, they locked me downstairs.
 
 12:30.646 --> 12:34.790
 I could hear the hoisting of the goods upstairs.
 
 12:35.330 --> 12:36.852
 They really roughed me up.
 
 12:37.592 --> 12:40.715
 And this is complete fiction.
 
 12:42.381 --> 12:52.065
 But you can tell that the tidesmen, there had been pressure on him to change his story because ultimately when people said 25 casks of wine, there's no way.
 
 12:52.545 --> 12:54.126
 Liberty was sold so much more.
 
 12:54.946 --> 12:59.067
 Hancock has a way of getting at the customs officers.
 
 12:59.127 --> 13:00.788
 He just has a way of needling them.
 
 13:01.168 --> 13:02.509
 And so they said, we have to get him.
 
 13:02.949 --> 13:08.011
 So a month later, this guy changes his story and says, oh, I was locked downstairs while they smuggled.
 
 13:08.351 --> 13:12.055
 So you think that story is made up, that he was locked downstairs?
 
 13:12.075 --> 13:12.775
 Oh, completely, Bob.
 
 13:12.835 --> 13:13.936
 Do you believe me?
 
 13:13.956 --> 13:14.437
 I'm not sure.
 
 13:14.497 --> 13:15.117
 I'm not sure.
 
 13:15.177 --> 13:19.201
 You know, I kind of give more, maybe I'm more wary of the mobs than you are.
 
 13:20.062 --> 13:23.205
 Oh, I'm wary of the mobs, but I'm also wary.
 
 13:24.682 --> 13:26.022
 Okay, okay, I can see that.
 
 13:26.583 --> 13:28.243
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 13:28.323 --> 13:29.103
 Yeah, we're stuck.
 
 13:29.223 --> 13:30.224
 It's like handcuffs.
 
 13:30.264 --> 13:31.924
 The bureaucrats and the mob.
 
 13:31.944 --> 13:34.065
 Yes, exactly.
 
 13:34.645 --> 13:41.707
 I'll tell you why I so forcefully disbelieve the story is that it comes out a month later.
 
 13:42.047 --> 13:43.747
 He had accepted the story then.
 
 13:43.827 --> 13:45.588
 He didn't have any problems then.
 
 13:46.108 --> 13:49.149
 But then a month later, he says, oh, I was locked downstairs.
 
 13:49.289 --> 13:54.070
 And in fact, a lot of his story resembles the Tidesman story about the...
 
 13:54.070 --> 13:55.091
 the Lydia confrontation.
 
 13:55.111 --> 13:55.211
 Right.
 
 13:55.271 --> 13:55.571
 Right.
 
 13:56.332 --> 13:56.612
 Right.
 
 13:56.812 --> 13:58.113
 It's like a little too similar.
 
 13:58.394 --> 13:58.694
 Okay.
 
 13:58.914 --> 13:59.174
 Okay.
 
 13:59.434 --> 13:59.955
 Yeah.
 
 14:00.035 --> 14:01.956
 And I'm not trying to convince you.
 
 14:02.117 --> 14:02.737
 I'm just telling you.
 
 14:02.797 --> 14:07.961
 No, this is, this is great to know there are different ways of looking at this and whom do we believe here?
 
 14:07.981 --> 14:12.825
 I mean, that's really one of the, we think everything's been settled, but here clearly it hasn't.
 
 14:13.065 --> 14:18.109
 So, so, so the tidesman changes his story and, and then what happens?
 
 14:18.270 --> 14:19.731
 And then they seize his ship.
 
 14:20.331 --> 14:25.174
 These two customs officials say, we're going to get him on a rarely used technicality.
 
 14:25.254 --> 14:28.635
 They don't actually get him on this smuggling because they can't prove that.
 
 14:30.136 --> 14:36.419
 And by the way, just in terms of some things aren't settled, some people don't think that Hancock smuggled that day.
 
 14:38.160 --> 14:39.801
 OK.
 
 14:39.821 --> 14:41.642
 I very much believe that he did.
 
 14:41.662 --> 14:43.943
 But they couldn't prove that.
 
 14:44.343 --> 14:48.044
 OK, so were there more than 25 casks of Madeira on the Liberty?
 
 14:48.304 --> 14:49.245
 Again, we don't know.
 
 14:49.265 --> 14:56.768
 But knowing Hancock's, knowing people, if you can get away with something, you might try to.
 
 14:57.248 --> 15:00.570
 But also Thomas Hancock, his uncle, had smuggled.
 
 15:00.610 --> 15:01.650
 There is evidence of that.
 
 15:01.670 --> 15:01.970
 Oh, sure.
 
 15:02.110 --> 15:02.310
 Yeah.
 
 15:02.510 --> 15:04.731
 So he would have known some tricks.
 
 15:06.721 --> 15:12.127
 So these two customs officials go down and seize Hancock's ship.
 
 15:12.828 --> 15:15.110
 Just prior to doing that, though, they're warned.
 
 15:15.170 --> 15:17.152
 They say, do not seize the ship.
 
 15:17.232 --> 15:20.115
 There will be big trouble in Boston if you do.
 
 15:21.176 --> 15:24.220
 And they do anyway, and they get beat down.
 
 15:24.280 --> 15:26.462
 I mean, it is a savage beating.
 
 15:26.482 --> 15:27.243
 Wow.
 
 15:28.730 --> 15:38.519
 of Harrison and Hallowell, these two customs officers and one of their sons who wasn't even involved in the seizure of the ship.
 
 15:39.419 --> 15:42.102
 Yeah, they're attacked with brick bats.
 
 15:42.242 --> 15:45.144
 Yes, and like dragged through the street.
 
 15:45.785 --> 15:48.327
 And then they would go, they went to their homes and
 
 15:50.226 --> 15:53.971
 and broke windows and threatened people.
 
 15:54.051 --> 15:57.235
 So it was a pretty scary event.
 
 15:57.535 --> 16:00.819
 And one thing that I point out in the book is
 
 16:03.470 --> 16:05.012
 I am very wary of mobs.
 
 16:05.432 --> 16:13.201
 And what I do point out is that there are people who help these guys find safe houses.
 
 16:13.261 --> 16:13.501
 Right.
 
 16:13.582 --> 16:14.563
 Yeah.
 
 16:14.703 --> 16:21.551
 So not everybody, while we kind of say, oh, Boston revolted or there was this mob in Boston.
 
 16:21.611 --> 16:21.791
 Yeah.
 
 16:22.091 --> 16:26.692
 There were many in Boston who said, whoa, this is too much, you know?
 
 16:26.752 --> 16:27.032
 Oh, yeah.
 
 16:27.292 --> 16:28.653
 Even at the time of the massacre.
 
 16:28.673 --> 16:33.714
 I mean, there are people going to war and press that they better get this guy off the street and all.
 
 16:33.734 --> 16:33.954
 Yeah.
 
 16:34.454 --> 16:39.716
 By the way, Jonathan just pointed out that in 1770, something like a million pounds of tea
 
 16:40.276 --> 16:44.078
 were sold in America, but only 90,000 had passed through customs.
 
 16:44.178 --> 16:48.081
 So less than 10%.
 
 16:48.541 --> 16:48.821
 Right.
 
 16:49.181 --> 16:52.223
 Well, and that's the thing, too, that I didn't really get into.
 
 16:52.283 --> 16:56.646
 But in 1768, they set up a new customs board here in Boston.
 
 16:57.166 --> 17:00.328
 And so they were determined to get people.
 
 17:00.588 --> 17:06.592
 And it cost more money to have these guys here than it did for money that they collected.
 
 17:07.533 --> 17:18.025
 But so they beat down these customs officers and then the mob takes one of their ships, like a pleasure ship, out of the harbor, drags it through Boston, sets it on fire.
 
 17:18.345 --> 17:18.645
 Wow.
 
 17:18.906 --> 17:19.666
 On Boston Common.
 
 17:19.707 --> 17:20.447
 It's stunning.
 
 17:20.527 --> 17:22.149
 It's a stunning show of force.
 
 17:22.189 --> 17:22.350
 Yeah.
 
 17:23.889 --> 17:38.802
 Now, one thing that historians sort of they have different takes on is whether or not the mob was writing in defense of Hancock, but some believe that they were writing in defense of impress or against against impression.
 
 17:38.862 --> 17:39.162
 Right.
 
 17:39.503 --> 17:40.464
 Yeah.
 
 17:41.384 --> 17:41.544
 And.
 
 17:43.183 --> 17:45.424
 So and both sides are compelling.
 
 17:45.864 --> 17:53.107
 I do say that John Roe, the merchant in Boston, unequivocally believed that they were mobbing in defense of John Hancock.
 
 17:53.527 --> 18:00.489
 But then there's others who it seems that Thomas Hutchinson or Governor Bernard seemed to think that they were rioting against impressment.
 
 18:02.170 --> 18:02.730
 Interesting.
 
 18:03.210 --> 18:05.331
 So, yeah, it's this big, big event.
 
 18:05.691 --> 18:10.172
 Really, if you think about it, all in defense of John Hancock's right to smuggle wine.
 
 18:10.193 --> 18:11.033
 Yeah.
 
 18:11.473 --> 18:11.573
 Yeah.
 
 18:11.972 --> 18:12.232
 Right.
 
 18:12.453 --> 18:23.245
 And then John Hancock doesn't care that much because the British go to him with a deal and they say, well, return your ship if you agree to stand trial and you tell the mob to calm down.
 
 18:23.805 --> 18:28.971
 And he agrees that that's a reasonable request to go back to making money.
 
 18:29.391 --> 18:29.592
 Right.
 
 18:30.447 --> 18:36.171
 And then you can imagine this scene, Bob, because Hancock had this mansion at the top of Beacon Hill.
 
 18:36.632 --> 18:38.793
 And one night, his house is full.
 
 18:40.074 --> 18:46.118
 And it's got James Otis, Samuel Adams, a bunch of other Sons of Liberty who say you made a bad deal.
 
 18:46.339 --> 18:47.760
 And you can't go through with this deal.
 
 18:48.100 --> 18:48.380
 Wow.
 
 18:49.661 --> 18:54.465
 And so Hancock enlists Joseph Warren, who at the time was a real...
 
 18:55.425 --> 19:00.611
 and remained a trusted, I don't want to say mediator, but he was sort of trusted on both sides.
 
 19:01.031 --> 19:06.357
 So he mediated this meeting and said, Hancock's not going to take the deal.
 
 19:06.717 --> 19:07.157
 Sorry.
 
 19:08.158 --> 19:11.642
 And the Customs Board is disappointed.
 
 19:11.682 --> 19:12.603
 They put him on trial.
 
 19:12.643 --> 19:14.405
 Ultimately, it really leads to nothing.
 
 19:15.606 --> 19:27.041
 But but they afterward, this is where this line of him being gullible and just like a follower comes up where the customs board.
 
 19:27.081 --> 19:32.728
 So British officials, not even Samuel Adams or James Otis, they're saying he followed the mob.
 
 19:32.748 --> 19:33.249
 Right.
 
 19:33.289 --> 19:33.449
 Yeah.
 
 19:34.350 --> 19:58.398
 subject to otis's and adams's whims and he did i mean he did back down from his deal but again i think this is self-preservation it is yeah and again it makes us think well what you do in this situation when there's no clear way out of this you know you know not knowing about what is going to happen right now you're facing these two really um
 
 20:00.735 --> 20:03.016
 opposite sides and you're kind of in the middle.
 
 20:03.556 --> 20:04.197
 Yes.
 
 20:04.717 --> 20:13.541
 I think about that all the time, actually, because I know it's so hard for us to think about history and not know the ending of the American Revolution.
 
 20:13.721 --> 20:14.301
 Yeah.
 
 20:15.202 --> 20:18.183
 Especially from a distance of 250 years later.
 
 20:18.443 --> 20:18.743
 Yeah.
 
 20:18.963 --> 20:25.606
 But at the time, you know, especially you know this better than I do, after the massacre, Boston really calms down.
 
 20:25.626 --> 20:25.766
 Oh, yeah.
 
 20:25.786 --> 20:28.908
 It's almost surprising or it could seem surprising.
 
 20:29.068 --> 20:29.188
 Mm-hmm.
 
 20:29.588 --> 20:39.595
 if you didn't realize that there's different groups here in Boston and people may have just thought the crisis with the crown was over.
 
 20:39.895 --> 20:40.055
 Yeah.
 
 20:40.075 --> 20:46.619
 We're talking with Brooke Barbier, who is the author of King Hancock, The Radical Influence of a Moderate Founding Father.
 
 20:49.261 --> 20:54.945
 In your book, you deal with these different pieces of Hancock and really do it in a very compelling way.
 
 20:55.546 --> 20:59.948
 And now there are some things we all know, like he wrote a signature very large on the Declaration of Independence.
 
 20:59.988 --> 21:01.608
 So what's that all about, Brooke?
 
 21:02.248 --> 21:03.629
 Well, okay.
 
 21:03.849 --> 21:04.089
 I know.
 
 21:04.149 --> 21:06.610
 I love that this is what he's famous for.
 
 21:06.650 --> 21:09.271
 I think he'd be delighted that this is what he's famous for.
 
 21:10.651 --> 21:23.535
 If you look at the Olive Branch petition, which was signed the year before and was sort of an act of extending an olive branch to the king, his Hancock is just as big and just as bold on the Olive Branch petition.
 
 21:23.956 --> 21:24.396
 So this is...
 
 21:25.617 --> 21:26.858
 how he signed his name.
 
 21:27.459 --> 21:38.955
 But what I do notice too, is if you go to DC and you see the declaration of independence, it's completely battered as you know, but there's tons of space on the bottom.
 
 21:39.015 --> 21:40.617
 It's a really large parchment.
 
 21:40.836 --> 21:41.096
 Yes.
 
 21:41.296 --> 21:46.438
 When we view the the copy now, you don't see the bottom space.
 
 21:46.458 --> 21:48.258
 They just sort of cut it off at the bottom.
 
 21:48.999 --> 21:50.839
 But I think so.
 
 21:51.279 --> 21:54.280
 Number one, he didn't sign it as big as we actually think he did.
 
 21:54.401 --> 21:55.501
 It's big and it's bold.
 
 21:55.661 --> 21:55.921
 Yeah.
 
 21:56.421 --> 21:59.302
 But he was also the president of the Continental Congress.
 
 21:59.322 --> 22:01.563
 So he's the first to sign and authorize the declaration.
 
 22:01.963 --> 22:03.644
 But also, I think of it sort of as
 
 22:05.024 --> 22:21.296
 you know a birthday card where people want to sign small to give they don't know how many people are going to sign yeah yeah um and so some people sign smaller and then some sign bigger but but there's tons of room at the bottom so people could have signed bigger they just didn't
 
 22:22.023 --> 22:22.324
 Yeah.
 
 22:22.364 --> 22:22.704
 Okay.
 
 22:22.724 --> 22:23.064
 So, yeah.
 
 22:23.264 --> 22:24.386
 So it's not him.
 
 22:24.746 --> 22:32.554
 Now, the other, some, by the way, some of the things that you do somewhat debunk are some of my favorite stories.
 
 22:32.654 --> 22:36.077
 Like the one about when John, no, this is great.
 
 22:37.098 --> 22:44.686
 When John Adams nominates Washington to be the commander of the Continental Army and Hancock thinks he's going to mention, nominate me.
 
 22:44.706 --> 22:45.206
 Yes.
 
 22:46.977 --> 22:49.778
 I mean, we know this from Adams' diary.
 
 22:50.419 --> 22:51.599
 Adams tells the story.
 
 22:51.719 --> 22:53.160
 Doesn't he?
 
 22:53.180 --> 22:54.981
 Yeah, he does, yeah.
 
 22:55.061 --> 22:59.723
 And unfortunately, Hancock didn't save everything and didn't write down his thoughts of the day.
 
 23:00.023 --> 23:00.263
 Right.
 
 23:00.303 --> 23:01.964
 So what do you think was happening then with that?
 
 23:02.444 --> 23:04.346
 Well, I think it's pretty clear.
 
 23:04.506 --> 23:06.628
 I love John Adams because he's such a gossip.
 
 23:06.788 --> 23:07.149
 Oh, yeah.
 
 23:07.609 --> 23:18.319
 He just gives you so much material to use, but you have to use your discretion when reading John Adams, as actually when you're reading anybody, in fact.
 
 23:19.200 --> 23:23.344
 But Adams really seems to be writing for the future in some of his books.
 
 23:23.903 --> 23:34.292
 His postings, you can you he gets very hurt and sensitive, especially later in his life about the way he's remembered or not remembered.
 
 23:35.133 --> 23:39.397
 And so I think he wanted to put himself at the center of this.
 
 23:39.977 --> 23:43.140
 What amounted to be a huge success.
 
 23:43.620 --> 23:46.182
 George Washington as the general of the Continental Army.
 
 23:46.943 --> 23:51.144
 But there's no corroborating evidence for John Adams.
 
 23:51.224 --> 23:56.926
 The notes just say Washington nominated and confirmed.
 
 23:57.527 --> 23:59.967
 And John Adams wasn't writing it contemporaneously.
 
 24:00.007 --> 24:02.208
 He didn't go home that night.
 
 24:02.828 --> 24:06.430
 And so I don't think that's the way that it happened.
 
 24:06.510 --> 24:12.752
 I don't think that John Adams and Samuel Adams nominated and seconded Washington's
 
 24:13.792 --> 24:37.564
 nomination and that hancock was visibly disappointed now hancock had ideas about his military prowess throughout his life so i wouldn't put it past him to think that he could be the general it made sense it's a new england army he was very popular among new englanders why would you send a virginian to take command of this group
 
 24:38.061 --> 24:38.963
 Right, right.
 
 24:39.043 --> 24:43.170
 So I don't have any doubt that Hancock may have thought he'd be a good pick for it.
 
 24:43.350 --> 24:44.271
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
 24:44.792 --> 24:47.477
 But I don't think it happened the way Adams said it did.
 
 24:48.471 --> 24:50.192
 Although I love Adam's story.
 
 24:50.452 --> 24:51.752
 Oh yeah, it's a great story.
 
 24:52.212 --> 24:52.812
 It's great.
 
 24:52.832 --> 24:57.954
 You know, he sees Washington thinking maybe he's talking about me and Washington leaves the room.
 
 24:58.594 --> 24:58.994
 Right.
 
 24:59.074 --> 25:02.515
 And then he says, and Hancock's face fell.
 
 25:02.735 --> 25:03.755
 He's mortified.
 
 25:03.795 --> 25:06.816
 You know, he keeps kind of going on about Hancock's embarrassment.
 
 25:06.896 --> 25:10.937
 He seems to take pleasure in that story.
 
 25:12.118 --> 25:17.399
 But then Hancock, when Washington is president and comes to Boston and Hancock is a
 
 25:18.755 --> 25:22.818
 He thinks that he being governor should receive the call of the visitor.
 
 25:22.858 --> 25:26.500
 And of course, Washington believes as president, he should receive the call of the governor.
 
 25:28.060 --> 25:29.261
 How do you explain that?
 
 25:29.801 --> 25:31.282
 Oh, I love that story.
 
 25:31.342 --> 25:32.463
 It's another great story.
 
 25:32.523 --> 25:33.403
 Yeah, because...
 
 25:36.362 --> 25:41.665
 By the way, I meant like not in my book, just like that historical story that you tell it in my book.
 
 25:42.065 --> 25:51.310
 But because it shows the humanness of these very larger than life men who are used to power and deference and authority.
 
 25:52.010 --> 25:53.051
 And right.
 
 25:53.131 --> 25:59.493
 So exactly like you said, Washington is going on this tour of the 13, his new 13 states under his purview as president.
 
 26:00.154 --> 26:03.175
 And exactly as you said, there's sort of this power struggle.
 
 26:03.255 --> 26:04.996
 Hancock says, call on me first.
 
 26:05.076 --> 26:06.636
 Washington wants him to call on him.
 
 26:07.237 --> 26:17.321
 And I think what's so interesting about this one is it shows how human, as I said, they were, how sensitive to slights they were serving their country.
 
 26:18.301 --> 26:21.603
 their stature, that's very important to the story.
 
 26:21.703 --> 26:23.683
 And ultimately, Hancock has to cave.
 
 26:24.544 --> 26:36.069
 And that in itself is, I think, a pretty tough moment for him because Washington got the better of him basically through Hancock's whole life.
 
 26:39.190 --> 26:44.152
 But what I think is playing out on a larger scale, and this is why I find this story fascinating,
 
 26:44.970 --> 26:46.931
 is this is 1789.
 
 26:46.991 --> 26:48.632
 The Constitution has just passed.
 
 26:48.712 --> 26:52.374
 We don't even know what a president of the United States is going to look like.
 
 26:52.435 --> 26:56.337
 We take it for granted today, knowing they're the highest authority.
 
 26:56.477 --> 27:02.981
 But in 1789, Hancock says, I've been governor of this state for seven of its last nine years.
 
 27:03.541 --> 27:07.283
 And I'm the highest authority of this state.
 
 27:07.503 --> 27:09.365
 And so when you come here, you call on me.
 
 27:10.285 --> 27:17.488
 Hancock was very sensitive to states rights and really and that means a different thing today.
 
 27:19.969 --> 27:30.234
 In the late 18th century, Hancock was worried about encroachment by a strong federal government into what he called separate republics.
 
 27:32.381 --> 27:44.804
 So in some ways, he's playing out on this very small, petty scale, a much bigger issue, which is who gets to decide who gets called on first and who is the ultimate authority.
 
 27:45.024 --> 27:46.164
 And Hancock loses.
 
 27:46.244 --> 27:47.344
 And that's still true today.
 
 27:47.804 --> 27:51.145
 It's still the president that's the highest authority, not a governor of a state.
 
 27:51.685 --> 27:55.626
 Yeah, it's interesting because on the one hand, we do look at these as kind of these petty things.
 
 27:55.726 --> 28:00.747
 But for Washington and for Hancock, these are very serious issues about deference and
 
 28:01.294 --> 28:02.575
 You know, stature and so on.
 
 28:02.615 --> 28:10.818
 Not just it's why Washington won't answer letters that the General House sends him just to Mr. Washington, because he's not recognizing him as General Washington.
 
 28:11.498 --> 28:19.342
 And so I wonder if you could we could talk a little bit about Dorothy Quincy and Hancock's personal life.
 
 28:20.467 --> 28:22.108
 Yeah, she's tough to get a read on.
 
 28:23.169 --> 28:26.351
 Partly because a lot of her letters don't survive.
 
 28:26.711 --> 28:38.138
 So the sense that I get is that she was lukewarm about any affection for John Hancock throughout her life.
 
 28:39.259 --> 28:44.182
 Much, much, much later in life, John Hancock has been dead over 20 years.
 
 28:44.423 --> 28:46.204
 She talks about...
 
 28:47.653 --> 28:54.616
 about Hancock's experience both at the Continental Congress and her experience supporting him and then him as governor.
 
 28:54.636 --> 29:01.419
 And in that account, she indicates that she wanted to get rid of him.
 
 29:01.439 --> 29:02.059
 Wow.
 
 29:02.419 --> 29:04.580
 That Aunt Lydia really wanted to see him married.
 
 29:04.640 --> 29:06.201
 He was very late to get married.
 
 29:06.261 --> 29:07.321
 Yeah.
 
 29:07.541 --> 29:08.021
 And so...
 
 29:09.922 --> 29:11.863
 Dorothy seemed like the right fit.
 
 29:13.363 --> 29:16.044
 She was from a she had a good family name.
 
 29:16.084 --> 29:21.186
 They weren't wealthy anymore, but they had a good family name from the same hometown as John Hancock.
 
 29:22.286 --> 29:28.968
 And so they get married, but it doesn't it's it's really sad on both ends.
 
 29:30.068 --> 29:31.749
 The letters that survive from Hancock.
 
 29:32.629 --> 29:40.935
 He is begging Dorothy Dolly for letters and news about their son or their daughter, both of whom died very tragically young.
 
 29:41.955 --> 29:47.259
 And she doesn't seem to find any comfort in him when their young daughter dies.
 
 29:48.820 --> 29:57.746
 She doesn't seem to really like the business of being the statesman's wife, the only wife accompanying him to the Second Continental Congress.
 
 29:58.426 --> 30:02.189
 So while she's tough to get a read on in a lot of ways,
 
 30:02.969 --> 30:04.790
 A lot of her letters don't survive.
 
 30:05.890 --> 30:10.292
 You get a sense about her from other people, particularly Hancock.
 
 30:10.372 --> 30:18.714
 And I think she was likely happier when she remarried after Hancock died.
 
 30:19.555 --> 30:21.435
 Someone well beneath her station.
 
 30:21.455 --> 30:23.176
 And her family didn't like this idea.
 
 30:23.236 --> 30:27.477
 But I think she was probably marrying that second time someone more of her choosing than Sam.
 
 30:27.497 --> 30:28.018
 Interesting.
 
 30:29.538 --> 30:29.778
 Wow.
 
 30:30.098 --> 30:30.258
 Wow.
 
 30:30.579 --> 30:31.239
 That's interesting.
 
 30:31.279 --> 30:37.062
 And then John Adams wrote in 1809 that he thought Hancock would be forgotten by history.
 
 30:37.282 --> 30:38.262
 Yes!
 
 30:38.402 --> 30:40.283
 Which is an interesting take on this.
 
 30:40.663 --> 30:40.903
 Yes.
 
 30:40.923 --> 30:42.984
 And of course, Adams was sure he would be forgotten.
 
 30:43.064 --> 30:43.945
 Well, exactly.
 
 30:44.465 --> 30:51.528
 I think, Bob, he's responding to his own internal insecurity and crises around... You know, he writes a lot.
 
 30:53.269 --> 30:54.870
 The one you're referring to in 1809 and then 1811, he says...
 
 30:58.598 --> 31:03.180
 You know, he laments the way that the founding of the country isn't being remembered.
 
 31:03.481 --> 31:03.921
 Right.
 
 31:03.941 --> 31:06.082
 Because he's so sensitive.
 
 31:06.182 --> 31:08.003
 He says, oh, it's just Washington.
 
 31:08.303 --> 31:10.124
 Right.
 
 31:10.164 --> 31:11.205
 Yeah.
 
 31:12.125 --> 31:18.649
 And and so, yeah, I think I think Adams was worried as much more about his own place.
 
 31:18.729 --> 31:22.451
 But he was using Samuel Adams or John Hancock as a way to.
 
 31:23.372 --> 31:24.775
 say they're forgetting us.
 
 31:25.277 --> 31:29.047
 And then much later in his life, he softens towards Hancock.
 
 31:29.087 --> 31:30.049
 He says, you know, I wasn't
 
 31:31.997 --> 31:35.258
 Essentially, I didn't treat him as well as I could have.
 
 31:35.318 --> 31:36.219
 Interesting, yeah.
 
 31:36.279 --> 31:39.800
 No one spent more time and was more devoted than Hancock.
 
 31:40.480 --> 31:42.001
 Yeah, wow.
 
 31:42.701 --> 31:43.342
 It's interesting.
 
 31:43.702 --> 31:48.744
 And of course, Hancock's mansion on Beacon Hill was demolished during the Civil War.
 
 31:48.804 --> 31:56.107
 And it's an interesting story and also spurs then the preservation of some of the sites you can take people on your tours today.
 
 31:56.487 --> 31:58.008
 Yeah, so I think...
 
 31:59.676 --> 32:05.625
 I talk about this in the epilogue of King Hancock because the destruction of John Hancock.
 
 32:05.665 --> 32:08.849
 So part of the epilogue is how does his legacy live on?
 
 32:08.929 --> 32:12.234
 How do we get to where there are tall buildings named after him?
 
 32:12.274 --> 32:14.537
 How do we get to where we remember his signature?
 
 32:15.078 --> 32:16.340
 Because I think that's an important part
 
 32:17.674 --> 32:20.076
 It's not just how he lived, but how he's remembered today.
 
 32:21.256 --> 32:29.582
 And one thing he's not remembered for, but that his house can take credit for, is yes, exactly.
 
 32:29.642 --> 32:32.984
 His house was demolished on the top of Beacon Hill.
 
 32:33.685 --> 32:37.948
 And when it was demolished, there was a real grassroots effort to try to save it.
 
 32:38.828 --> 32:40.649
 And that didn't work.
 
 32:41.370 --> 32:46.493
 And there was an idea to save it, to send it somewhere else, maybe put it in...
 
 32:48.272 --> 32:49.894
 put it in, in the public garden.
 
 32:50.134 --> 32:57.101
 Imagine just mansion in the public garden, just to move it as so that it would be preserved.
 
 32:57.962 --> 33:04.509
 But when his house was leveled, this was really sort of a wake up call for citizens to say, Oh, the government's not going to,
 
 33:05.530 --> 33:30.683
 this house was offered for such a low price and they didn't raise the money to buy it or move it and so it really spurs preservation efforts for these historic buildings that dot the freedom trail today many of them wouldn't exist without the efforts these noble heroic efforts ordinary people who said this building means something to us history um and so
 
 33:33.521 --> 33:50.326
 There's a preservation historian, you know, preservationist historian who argues that Hancock's mansion being destroyed was the catalyst for these future preservation efforts, both in Boston and nationally, because the federal protection of buildings doesn't come around until the early 20th century.
 
 33:51.926 --> 33:52.086
 No.
 
 33:52.286 --> 33:56.110
 And it was only in the 1850s that Mount Vernon was preserved.
 
 33:56.130 --> 33:57.911
 I mean, that was also going to be.
 
 33:58.492 --> 33:59.673
 Yeah, exactly.
 
 33:59.873 --> 34:00.234
 Sorry.
 
 34:00.754 --> 34:01.295
 But exactly.
 
 34:01.335 --> 34:02.956
 That was done by private citizens.
 
 34:02.996 --> 34:03.216
 Right.
 
 34:03.236 --> 34:03.456
 Yeah.
 
 34:03.657 --> 34:03.857
 Yeah.
 
 34:04.137 --> 34:08.441
 You know, these women who said this is something important and this is George Washington's house.
 
 34:08.521 --> 34:09.081
 So, yeah.
 
 34:09.302 --> 34:09.662
 Yeah.
 
 34:09.702 --> 34:16.088
 John Hancock's house, in some senses, didn't stand a chance because they just didn't understand that somebody might want to see it.
 
 34:16.668 --> 34:18.288
 Right, yeah.
 
 34:18.629 --> 34:21.969
 And, you know, visit later or that it has some sort of meaning.
 
 34:22.289 --> 34:36.193
 Yeah, there's a great quote in the 1960s during the urban renewal in Boston on their demolishing Scully Square and a member of the city council said when people come to Boston they want to see the nice shiny revenue generating buildings like they'll see in Houston, Miami.
 
 34:36.213 --> 34:40.854
 They don't want to see some crummy printing shop where William Lloyd Garrison turned out the liberator.
 
 34:41.634 --> 34:45.615
 And this idea that people don't want to see these things, but as you know, they do.
 
 34:45.695 --> 34:48.036
 I mean, you're showing people these things four days a week.
 
 34:48.436 --> 34:49.517
 Oh, I didn't know that.
 
 34:49.597 --> 34:52.358
 And they specifically said Houston and Miami.
 
 34:52.538 --> 34:53.018
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 34:53.118 --> 34:55.179
 Or some big new cities like that.
 
 34:55.239 --> 34:55.839
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 34:55.979 --> 35:01.101
 That's so interesting because there's parts of Boston today that are being developed that I say, oh.
 
 35:01.801 --> 35:02.442
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 35:02.622 --> 35:03.263
 Like the seaport.
 
 35:03.303 --> 35:04.204
 We don't need to name names.
 
 35:04.364 --> 35:05.566
 Yeah, we don't need to name names.
 
 35:05.586 --> 35:07.568
 We don't need to name names.
 
 35:07.728 --> 35:11.953
 But there's neighborhoods today that I see, this looks like any other city.
 
 35:12.874 --> 35:14.836
 This doesn't, like faceless city.
 
 35:14.976 --> 35:16.879
 It doesn't look like Boston.
 
 35:16.979 --> 35:17.459
 Right, yeah.
 
 35:18.345 --> 35:20.687
 And that's one thing that's so special about Boston.
 
 35:21.027 --> 35:32.518
 And one of the reasons that I moved here from San Diego is because you could walk the streets of Boston and get a coffee or a beer right next to these historic sites.
 
 35:32.598 --> 35:34.720
 And that was so exciting and different to me.
 
 35:35.177 --> 35:36.259
 Right, yeah.
 
 35:36.299 --> 35:45.093
 We're talking with Brooke Barbier, who is the author of King Hancock, the Radical Influence of a Moderate Founding Father, and also the proprietor of Ye Olde Tavern Tours.
 
 35:45.113 --> 35:49.300
 Why don't you tell us a little bit about Ye Olde Tavern Tours and how you got into being a tour guide?
 
 35:49.727 --> 36:02.070
 Yeah, OK, so when I finished my PhD at Boston College, I threw a Freedom Trail pub crawl for my family coming in from California and for friends around New England.
 
 36:02.790 --> 36:03.931
 And it was a big time.
 
 36:04.011 --> 36:05.351
 It was a big, fun time.
 
 36:05.791 --> 36:08.632
 But I had written up this little pamphlet
 
 36:09.790 --> 36:15.614
 about the historic sites that we'd be passing and the historic taverns that we were going to go into.
 
 36:16.035 --> 36:22.239
 And a couple of people in attendance whose opinions I really respected said, oh, who did this?
 
 36:22.319 --> 36:23.880
 Who designed this pamphlet?
 
 36:24.160 --> 36:25.661
 Who designed the whole concept of this?
 
 36:25.722 --> 36:26.862
 And I said, I did.
 
 36:26.882 --> 36:29.224
 And they said, you should do that for other people.
 
 36:29.424 --> 36:31.846
 And so I put that in the back of my mind.
 
 36:33.567 --> 36:36.509
 eventually decided to do it for other people.
 
 36:36.549 --> 36:42.853
 So I didn't ever intend to become a tour guide or a tour company owner.
 
 36:42.993 --> 36:44.054
 I love it now.
 
 36:44.194 --> 36:48.877
 Of course, it's suited me since I started because I love talking about history and I love beer.
 
 36:50.078 --> 36:55.141
 On the tour, you stop at three taverns and you drink beer while seeing historic sites.
 
 36:55.961 --> 37:00.424
 And you really learn about the American Revolution in Boston, this critical period.
 
 37:02.406 --> 37:12.772
 So I never intended to necessarily think that I would give tours, but I wanted to provide an experience for visitors and locals in Boston.
 
 37:13.112 --> 37:13.793
 Good time.
 
 37:14.753 --> 37:16.154
 I like learning new things.
 
 37:16.474 --> 37:18.816
 And like I said, I like drinking beer.
 
 37:19.496 --> 37:20.417
 So I combined them.
 
 37:21.528 --> 37:22.508
 Oh, great.
 
 37:22.548 --> 37:22.969
 That's great.
 
 37:22.989 --> 37:23.729
 And you do it.
 
 37:23.749 --> 37:26.470
 You also have other folks you've hired to do tours.
 
 37:26.970 --> 37:29.010
 Yeah, I'm out there leading a lot of tours.
 
 37:29.130 --> 37:34.932
 And then I have fantastic tour guides who have a very strong background in history.
 
 37:34.972 --> 37:35.793
 That's one thing that...
 
 37:37.333 --> 38:06.005
 we're really known for is really knowing our history and not sharing myths or or other things yeah yeah but not simply making it a recitation of footnotes and dates this is great it's really it's really meant to be fun and accessible for people yeah good um no the footnotes are in my life they are literally in the footnotes or the end yeah that's not usually a part of the way i talk about history
 
 38:06.502 --> 38:07.382
 It's good.
 
 38:07.662 --> 38:12.964
 So one of the places you do see on the tour, I'm presuming, is the granary burying ground where Hancock is buried.
 
 38:13.024 --> 38:20.766
 And I'm just thinking that next to Hancock's big pillar, there's a small marker for Frank, who is one of his servants.
 
 38:20.866 --> 38:22.987
 And Hancock, like a lot of other...
 
 38:23.700 --> 38:26.423
 People of his social class in Boston owned slaves.
 
 38:27.444 --> 38:32.089
 But you talk a bit about his relationship with the institution of slavery in the book.
 
 38:32.109 --> 38:36.573
 I wonder if we could just talk a little bit about that before we let you go.
 
 38:37.094 --> 38:37.514
 Yeah.
 
 38:37.654 --> 38:41.538
 So Hancock's relationship to slavery is sort of like you...
 
 38:42.557 --> 38:53.562
 like you said at the beginning, he inherits, he comes from a family of enslavers and he inherits enslaved women and men when his aunt dies.
 
 38:53.762 --> 39:00.145
 So when his uncle dies, the property, including enslaved men and women get transferred to his,
 
 39:01.540 --> 39:02.960
 or bequeath to his aunt.
 
 39:03.060 --> 39:08.422
 And then when she dies in 1776, they go to John Hancock.
 
 39:08.782 --> 39:15.503
 But mostly she was freeing them, but a couple of the enslaved men and women had conditions.
 
 39:15.583 --> 39:22.345
 So you have to, you can be free after a year if you please your master, you know, things like that.
 
 39:22.405 --> 39:22.865
 So Lydia-
 
 39:23.660 --> 39:25.322
 freed many but not all.
 
 39:26.162 --> 39:29.445
 And Hancock goes on, we don't know exactly when this happens.
 
 39:29.485 --> 39:33.229
 And unfortunately, we don't hear from him about why he does this.
 
 39:33.930 --> 39:42.638
 But by the end of the 1770s, he has freed the enslaved men and women that he inherited.
 
 39:43.610 --> 39:53.196
 And part of this, I attribute to simply being in Massachusetts at this time and being on the House of Representatives.
 
 39:53.396 --> 40:01.401
 As you know, both free and enslaved Black persons were sending petitions in the early 1770s.
 
 40:02.042 --> 40:06.925
 Hancock is a part of a committee to consider this and consider ending the slave trade.
 
 40:07.025 --> 40:08.906
 Ultimately, it doesn't go anywhere because Hutchinson
 
 40:10.327 --> 40:12.369
 doesn't confirm those ideas.
 
 40:13.629 --> 40:16.791
 So he's hearing this in the early 1770s.
 
 40:17.652 --> 40:25.916
 Certainly, he uses the language after the Declaration of Independence that he thinks that everyone will be free after this.
 
 40:26.016 --> 40:28.418
 And he's not referring to Black persons there.
 
 40:28.498 --> 40:31.119
 He's just referring to political freedom.
 
 40:31.139 --> 40:31.860
 So he's not
 
 40:33.849 --> 40:35.613
 he's still figuring it out.
 
 40:35.713 --> 40:39.720
 Like with a lot of things in his life, he's taking his time to figure it out.
 
 40:41.243 --> 40:44.389
 But what I found so interesting is that
 
 40:45.692 --> 40:49.574
 as governor, he took steps to weaken slavery.
 
 40:49.654 --> 41:03.962
 So the narrative is often that in 1780 with the constitution thing, the Massachusetts constitution saying everyone's free and equal, and then the Kwok Walker case shortly after, and then that ends slavery.
 
 41:04.562 --> 41:06.243
 There's historians now who say it wasn't
 
 41:06.923 --> 41:10.871
 it wasn't exactly that clean, but also people had been bottom up emancipating.
 
 41:10.891 --> 41:11.973
 Right.
 
 41:12.114 --> 41:13.336
 Courts told them they had to.
 
 41:13.937 --> 41:17.264
 And so Hancock goes on to
 
 41:18.854 --> 41:22.416
 goes on to weaken slavery in other ways too.
 
 41:22.536 --> 41:31.561
 So he gets petitioned by Prince Hall for these men that were kidnapped and going to be sold down in the West Indies.
 
 41:31.942 --> 41:36.744
 And Hancock writes down there and says, these are free people, don't enslave them.
 
 41:37.265 --> 41:38.886
 There's a couple of instances like that.
 
 41:39.386 --> 41:45.930
 But one of the most notable instances of how his mind had clearly shifted
 
 41:46.850 --> 41:57.359
 not just on slavery, but on Black personhood even, was he held a ball at his home for free Black men.
 
 41:57.379 --> 42:02.423
 I couldn't find any source that said that women were there, but certainly women were there.
 
 42:04.164 --> 42:13.131
 And he was derided in a newspaper by critics who mocked him, calling it an equality ball, because he was hosting
 
 42:16.065 --> 42:16.466
 Right.
 
 42:16.766 --> 42:26.335
 And so and and then, you know, someone else comes to his defense in the newspaper and says, oh, big crime to host black people in your home.
 
 42:26.375 --> 42:33.943
 Well, but it was really it was it was controversial what Hancock was doing.
 
 42:33.983 --> 42:35.905
 But ultimately what I argue is that.
 
 42:37.145 --> 42:39.327
 Hancock wasn't a policy wonk.
 
 42:39.588 --> 42:44.353
 He really wasn't an ideologue, but he knew how to connect with people.
 
 42:44.533 --> 42:48.017
 And that often was through hospitality and throwing parties.
 
 42:48.177 --> 42:56.346
 And so one way he could set an example was to host black men and women for a ball in his home.
 
 42:57.186 --> 43:01.307
 And he did this with other people too throughout his life.
 
 43:01.347 --> 43:07.849
 That was one way that he connected people was through his entertainment.
 
 43:07.929 --> 43:11.250
 So you really see his mind change throughout his life.
 
 43:11.330 --> 43:17.112
 But as with everything with Hancock, it takes some time and energy.
 
 43:17.752 --> 43:29.288
 There's some parts of his decision making that are lost to history, but you can figure out that he ultimately not only decided that he couldn't enslave people anymore.
 
 43:29.795 --> 43:38.662
 but that he was going to try to help in some ways promote, if not equality, at least dignity.
 
 43:39.162 --> 43:39.663
 Interesting.
 
 43:39.983 --> 43:40.363
 Interesting.
 
 43:40.844 --> 43:41.224
 Fascinating.
 
 43:41.504 --> 43:48.269
 We've been talking with Brooke Barbier, who is the author of King Hancock, the Radical Influence of a Moderate Founding Father.
 
 43:48.349 --> 43:51.932
 And she also is the proprietor of Ye Olde Tavern Tours.
 
 43:52.012 --> 43:57.917
 And her first book is on Boston in the American Revolution, A Town Versus an Empire, which I also recommend.
 
 43:57.937 --> 43:59.558
 So thank you so much for joining us, Brooke.
 
 43:59.867 --> 44:00.367
 Oh, my gosh.
 
 44:00.487 --> 44:03.228
 It's been so fun to talk about John Hancock.
 
 44:03.469 --> 44:07.310
 And I'm just like honored to be on the podcast.
 
 44:07.590 --> 44:12.392
 Well, we're honored to have you and we'll hope to have you back to talk about Hancock and other things.
 
 44:13.012 --> 44:13.593
 So thank you.
 
 44:13.633 --> 44:14.513
 Thank you for being a listener.
 
 44:14.533 --> 44:15.834
 I want to thank our other listeners.
 
 44:15.874 --> 44:16.594
 You know, we have folks.
 
 44:17.094 --> 44:26.642
 in Boston and in Boston's greater Boston, as well as in Westboro and Attleboro in Massachusetts, as well as Topanga, California.
 
 44:26.662 --> 44:30.325
 I don't know if that's near San Diego, but kind of, okay.
 
 44:30.625 --> 44:35.249
 And Jasper, Georgia and Milan, Paris and Sioux, Korea.
 
 44:35.629 --> 44:36.670
 Thank you all for listening.
 
 44:37.170 --> 44:43.756
 And folks in all places between, if you're in one of those places, send Jonathan Lane an email, jlaneatrevolution250.org.
 
 44:44.056 --> 44:46.578
 They'll send you one of our Rev 250 lapel pins or,
 
 44:47.113 --> 44:49.925
 refrigerator magnets, and thank you all for joining us.
 
 44:50.006 --> 44:52.496
 And now we will be piped out on the road to Boston.